1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: There was a piece in the Free Press a few 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: days ago that I immediately sent to my fifteen year 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: old daughter. It was called How I Became a Wife, 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: and I was already thinking of doing a monologue on 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: it when a listener, Hi, Amy, sent it to me too, 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: So obviously it's a fit. The writer Larissa Phillips writes, quote, 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: my parents weren't that extreme, but they still wanted to 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: take a sledgehammer to social norms. They both adhered to 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: the blank slate idea that differences between men and women 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: were socially constructed and a little tweaking would solve the 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: problem of disparate outcomes. My mother dressed my sister and 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: I in overalls and Earth's shoes, and if we got 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: baby dolls or tea sets, it was with a hint 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: of disapproval. Why would girls play it being mothers or 16 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: wives when they could sit on the Supreme Court or 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: fly to the moon. 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: When I was in the sixth my. 19 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Mother gave me a framed print that said a woman 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. End quote. 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: I'll say that does actually sound quite extreme. But the 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: part that I completely can't wrap my mind around is 23 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: that you can only sit on the Supreme Court or 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: fly to the moon if you aren't married and don't 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: have kids. That's the separation for me. I'll say that 26 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: my parents also weren't like, you should definitely get married 27 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: and have children. I don't remember them ever saying that 28 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: to me. But the truth is that my career that 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: they did want me to have took off when I 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: got married. It was just easier to do what I 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 1: wanted to do with a support system, and not just financial, 32 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: although that definitely helped, but emotional. It's why married people, 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: both men and women, earn more money. We've been through 34 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: this on the show in many pre episodes. But the 35 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: reason that I sent this article to my fifteen year 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: old daughter is that I see a lot of the 37 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: messaging that she gets out in the world. It's a 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: lot of the worst and you don't need men. All 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: you need is a great job, and you can only 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: have that if you aren't married and don't have kids. 41 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: I particularly loved the way Phillips tells their story. She 42 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: was told she was going to love one thing, and 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: then she loved another. 44 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: She writes quote. 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: I assumed i'd go back to work when our son 46 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: was a few months old, as seemed to be the 47 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: norm in New York City. But this turned out to 48 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: be impossible. First, I didn't earn enough as an editor 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: to justify daycare or nanny. But even more importantly, leaving 50 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: that soft little creature who fits so snugly and easily 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: into my arms, who burrowed his face into my neck 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: and slept against my chest as if he belonged there, 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: felt deeply in my bones wrong. So I stayed home. 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: End quote. We lived in the Upper West Side of 55 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Manhattan when we had our first child, the fifteen year 56 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: old I sent the article to. I was writing occasionally, 57 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: but definitely not professionally yet. I would occasionally write something 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: that got printed and I got paid, but it was. 59 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: Nowhere near a career. 60 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: So I had this wide open schedule to snuggle with 61 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: her and walk around and just be free and focus 62 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: on her. And it was a really magical time. And 63 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: I met other moms with babies about the same age 64 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: who had successful careers, lawyers, doctors, who all they wanted 65 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: to do was stay home with their babies. They loved 66 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: their jobs, but there was nothing like being home with 67 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: that baby. It's just instinct. Here's what else I loved 68 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: about this piece that the fact that you stayed home 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: with your children does not mean you'll never work again. 70 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you can't also have a career. It 71 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: just means that if you have the opportunity to lean 72 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: into this very short time of having small children and 73 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: to really be with them, take it. Phillips and her 74 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: husband end up having more kids and moving upstate and 75 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: having a farm, and she talks about all the hard 76 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: work she does, it's not all baby snuggling. But then 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: she writes, quote, I stand by a lot of the 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: feminist lessons I learned as a child. Of Course women 79 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: can sit on the Supreme Court and be astronauts or 80 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: physicists or lawyers. Of Course we can survive without men. 81 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: But getting married, being a wife, being a mother is 82 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: not a step back in time or a surrendering of ground. 83 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: It's actually the best part of my life. 84 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: End quote. 85 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: What I would say about that is that the feminist 86 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: lessons do leave out that last part. And it's important 87 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: to me that my daughter understands that you can be anything. 88 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: You can be many things, but I can already predict 89 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: what you will love being most. Thanks for listening. Coming 90 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: up my interview with John J. 91 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: Miller. 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: But first, after more than a year of war, terror 93 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: and pain in Israel, all of Israel is broken hearted 94 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: after learning of the tragic deaths of the Beebis children 95 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: who were held hostage in Gaza, and so many are 96 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: still hurting throughout the Holy Land, where the need for 97 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: aid continues to grow. The International Fellowship of Christians and 98 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: Jews has supported and continues to support families of hostages 99 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: and other victims of the October seventh terror attacks. With 100 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: your help, IFCJ has provided financial and emotional help to 101 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: hostages and their families, and to those healing and rebuilding 102 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: their broken homes and broken bodies. 103 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: But the real work is just beginning. 104 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: Your gift will help provide critically needed support to families 105 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: in Israel whose lives continue to be destroyed by terror 106 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: and uncertainty as Israel remains surrounded by enemies. Give a 107 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: gift to bless Israel and her people by visiting SUPPORTIFCJ 108 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: dot org. One word SUPPORTIFCJ dot org, or call eight 109 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: eight eight for eight eight IFCJ. That's eight eight eight 110 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: for eight eight if CJ. Welcome back to the Carol 111 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 112 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: My guest today is John J. Miller. 113 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: John is director of the Now Journalism Program at Hillsdale College. 114 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: He also writes for National Review, The Wall Street Journal, 115 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: and other publications. He has two weekly podcasts, The Great 116 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: Books and The Bookmonger. 117 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: Hi, John, So nice to have you on. 118 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 4: Hi Carol, thanks for having me. I love your show. 119 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much. You know, I'm a huge fan 120 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 2: of yours. 121 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: I got to know you while I was at Hillsdale 122 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: last year, and I still talk about Hillsdale all the time, 123 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: like it comes up frequently. I had no idea just 124 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: how much Hillsdale was the center of the universe. 125 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: Actually, I'm blessed to be here. It's a great college. 126 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: We do liveral arts the right way, and the students 127 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: are wonderful. 128 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: How did you end up there? 129 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 4: The president called me. I wanted to come out and 130 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 4: run the journal. Yeah. 131 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: I mean what I learned is, you know, the way 132 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 3: to get your next job is as somebody call you 133 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: and offer you one. That's That's essentially what happened. 134 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, pro tip. So where were you before National Review? 135 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 4: So I was I was in Washington, d C. I'm 136 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 4: a Michigander. 137 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: I grew up in Michigan, went to University of Michigan, 138 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: but then after graduating, went out to d C, where 139 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: I was a writer, professional writer for for twenty years, 140 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: most of that time with National Review magazine and writing 141 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 3: you know, articles on governors and senators and what's happening 142 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: on Capitol Hill and book reviews and all kinds of things, 143 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 3: and just well, the phone rang and I picked it up. 144 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 3: So so they thought of me to come run, come 145 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: run the journalism program here. And there's a bit of 146 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 3: a homecoming coming back to Michigan for me, which was 147 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 3: which was great. 148 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 4: But you know, this has been a great job. Even 149 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 4: it been like you know in Ohio or something. Yea, yeah, 150 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 4: it is. It is such a special place though. 151 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is concerning and the people listening on audio 152 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: don't know. But you didn't show me the palm. And 153 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: where where in the palm you're from, the old, the. 154 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: Old old Michigan. 155 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, right out there. I mean, it's it's it's. 156 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: Worth the lower centers there in Michigan. 157 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: You know, it's like we're Indiana and Ohio meet. We're 158 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: just a little bit north. 159 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: Of that, I see. And do you ever miss d C? 160 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: Or is Michigan just the future for you? 161 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 4: Yeah? I do not miss d C. 162 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: I I did like living there. I actually wasn't looking 163 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 3: to leave. My wife and I were happy. We were 164 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: in a good neighborhood, We liked our church that you know, 165 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: the work was pretty good. We weren't looking to leave. 166 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: But since leaving, I haven't missed it. I enjoy going back. 167 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: I got a couple of kids who live out there now. 168 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 3: But and I do like to go back and and 169 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: see things, and and so on. Occasionally there's I'll get 170 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: a story idea someone want to write, and I got gosh, 171 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: ioul just you know, buzz into d C and do 172 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: a few. 173 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 4: But by and large, well it's it's better here. 174 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Did you always want to be a writer, Oh. 175 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, since I was little. You know, you start out 176 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: wanting to uh. I think a lot of writers start 177 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: out as readers. You know, you're kind of a bookish kid. 178 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 3: You like to read, and so forth. And and then 179 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 3: I had some teachers who just encouraged me along the way, 180 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: and and and noticed I would write things. And I 181 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 3: had I had a teacher in middle school who say 182 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 3: you should be a magazine writer when you grow up 183 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 3: and sort of stick that in the back of your head, 184 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: and you know, among all the other things you want 185 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: to do, you know, baseball star, you know, rock star, 186 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: I mean all that, you know, but but you sort 187 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: of you sort of think of all the possibilities, you know, 188 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 3: that one, that one stuck. And I did think all along, 189 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 3: you know, maybe maybe I could do it as a writer. 190 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: And what would have been the backup career if if 191 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: this is clearly baseball star not? 192 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: You know, I nearly went to grad school to be 193 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 3: an English professor. I did think about that pretty seriously 194 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: when I was in college. So maybe something like that. 195 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 3: And you know the irony is, you know I kind 196 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: of came back to academy in. 197 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: Essential, right, I mean, do teach a class? 198 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I do. 199 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: And you know I have a PhD in nothing unlike 200 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: my my brilliant colleagues here at Hillsdale College. 201 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 4: They're all very well educated. 202 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 3: You know, my my terminal degree is a Bachelor of 203 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 3: Arts at the University of Michigan in English. But but 204 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: here I am, you know, teaching teaching how to write mostly, 205 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: which is which is what I know how to do. 206 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: But I guess I've done both. My my My, My 207 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: Plan B kind of became, you know, the Plan A. 208 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 4: Eventually. 209 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: It's the best part of teaching Hillsdale kids probably the students. 210 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 4: They're they're really terrific kids. 211 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 3: I mean there's they're smart and they work hard, which 212 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: I think is true of students on a lot of 213 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: campuses around the country, just at the best colleges. I 214 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 3: really like these students though. I mean, they're good people. 215 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: I I I you know, you you you kind of 216 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 3: you become friendly with them. I don't want to say 217 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: we become friends, because the relationship is different from from 218 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: a kind of friend of friend peer to peer. 219 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 4: Relationship and shit. 220 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: But but eventually you do, like after they graduate and 221 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 3: so forth, you really do become friends. And one of 222 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: the things I've learned here is Hillso College is small. 223 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: There there's fifteen sixteen hundred students. There are fewer students 224 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 3: at this college and there were in my high school. 225 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 4: Wow, So it's a yeah. 226 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 3: So it's you know, it's a big high school, but 227 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 3: it's also a small college. And I went to the 228 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: University of Michigan with tens of thousands of students. And 229 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 3: these are very different models of higher education. And you know, 230 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 3: my time at Michigan was pretty good. I could say 231 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 3: a lot about it. I'm happy I went, But I've 232 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 3: really become sold on the small liberal arts college model. 233 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 4: And there's the fundamental difference. 234 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 3: I like to compare it to, you know, biological breeding 235 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: strategies that that you know, the University of Michigan just thousands. 236 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 4: Of young right and then and then. 237 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: You know many will be eaten, won't and won't survive, 238 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: whereas whereas Hillsdale College, it's much more humane. There are 239 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: a fewer number of offspring. You make tremendously large investments 240 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 3: in each one, just like it's like people, yeah and 241 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: so so go to I go to three, four or 242 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: five weddings every summer of students, which is a choice. 243 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 4: It's an honor to go. 244 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 3: It never would have occurred to me to invite a professionals. 245 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 4: My wedding, right. 246 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: So this is one of the small pleasures of those 247 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 3: places is you actually make these friendships and they become lifelong. 248 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 4: Ultimately, they are friendships. But I really like these kids. 249 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: I like working with them, helping them become good writers, 250 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 3: and then watching them go. 251 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: Is there any level of, like you know that would 252 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: say smugness, but some sort of self satisfaction that you 253 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: guys don't have the problems that a lot of the 254 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: colleges across the country do, even putting aside the encampments 255 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: and the riots or anything like that, even just you know, 256 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: the whole bringing speakers to campus and not having them 257 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: get shouted down or any kind of the issues that 258 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: college campus haesn't really had in the last decade. So 259 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: do you guys feel sort of good about yourselves that 260 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: you don't have that? 261 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 4: Well, I would say I feel gratitude. 262 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: You know nothing, but I'm nothing but grateful to be 263 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 3: in a place where all of that is true, where 264 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: where the students are good. They for the most part 265 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: read the things you ask them to read, They do 266 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: the work and so on. We have these amazing speakers 267 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 3: come through, and this is an orderly and happy place. 268 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: There aren't protests, there are not disruptions. We don't have 269 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 3: to worry about that kind of thing. I mean, let people, 270 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 3: you know, people grumble about this and that, but it's 271 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 3: a happy place. People like being here, The students like 272 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 3: studying here. They're in the middle of nowhere in Michigan. 273 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: You've got to drive anywhere to get somewhere. They're in 274 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: the middle of nowhere in Michigan, and they like being here. 275 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 3: They like their friends, they like their courses, and then 276 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 3: the faculty and staff are happy. I think there are 277 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 3: a lot of unhappy campuses in America, people who are disgruntled. 278 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: They're kind of putting up with an awful lot because 279 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 3: they don't know what else to Dollo is a happy place. 280 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 3: People want to come here and be here, and so 281 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: I'm grateful for that. 282 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: I love that well, Switching Gears, you were recently in 283 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: my state and you went on a little trip to 284 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: Key West that you wrote up for National Review. 285 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: Do you want to tell our listeners about it? 286 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: So? I've been working and writing for National Review for 287 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: more than twenty five years now, and we just did 288 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: a big overhaul the magazine recently where we went from 289 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 3: we're coming out every two weeks now. It's a monthly magazine. 290 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: Of course, is a big online operation. At the same time, 291 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: and when the magazine did a redesign, we introduced a 292 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 3: new column called Our Spacious Skies, and the idea is 293 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 3: among all of the articles on politics and policy and 294 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: who's up and who's down, and what's right for America 295 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. We want to have 296 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 3: a space where we have a reported piece from America 297 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: about some interesting part of American culture or history. You know, 298 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: writer goes and explorers and doesn't need to mention Trump 299 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 3: or or anything like that. Just just give us a 300 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: flavor of something that's happening in America. And so I've 301 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 3: I've done this a couple of times, both reported pieces 302 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: from Michigan, which I enjoyed. But I recently had a 303 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: chance to go down to Florida for a business meeting 304 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: and then had a few extra days went down to 305 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 3: Key West, which I really enjoy I've always enjoyed trips 306 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: to Key West. 307 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 4: Go it's it's you're close, you can drive us. 308 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: You know, it's one of the great American drives going 309 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: from Miami to Key West. There's nothing like it. These 310 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: bridges and causeways. I mean, you feel like you're floating 311 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: above the Caribbean Sea with these blues and so forth. 312 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: It's just a gorgeous, gorgeous drive. There's there's I don't 313 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: know anything else like it, you know, in the world, 314 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: but it's certainly one of the great American drives going 315 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 3: down to Key West, and the Key West itself is 316 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: this fascinating blend of like tourist trap and and real place. 317 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: I mean, it has a real history. And Ernest Hemingway 318 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: lived there. Harry Truman had a little white house there. 319 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 3: There's a Civil War for it called the Zachary Taylor 320 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 3: for Zachary's Taylor. Other things as well, amid you know, 321 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 3: kind of a party scene and lots of bars and 322 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: restaurants and so on. And I've always I've always enjoyed 323 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: my visits there. It's a it's a unique American place. 324 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 3: But the thing I did on this trip which was 325 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: different is I enjoyed Key West, but I went to 326 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: the Dry Tortugas, which are a set of keys, you know, 327 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: small islands about seventy miles west and you can only 328 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: get there, you know, the drive ends miles zero is 329 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: in Key West. You can only get to this place 330 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: by ferry or seaplane. And in the Dry Tortugas is 331 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 3: a massive Civil War era fort called Fort Jefferson. It 332 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 3: is the largest brick structure in the United States. It 333 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: wasn't what was built and it still is even though 334 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: the thing is crumbling. It's something like sixteen million bricks 335 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 3: in this place. Gigantic thing. I've always wanted to go, 336 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: and this time I said, you know what, I'm going 337 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: to go, and I'm going to write it up for 338 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 3: our spacious guies for this column. So so my wife 339 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: and I went. We got on a ferry, went out there, 340 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: and you know, it's it's a full day thing. You 341 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: go in the early morning, you get some hours on 342 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 3: the on the key, exploring the fort and so forth, 343 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 3: and then you come. 344 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 4: Back and it was just a wonderful. 345 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this for years and it's so 346 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: great to go to a place you've been imagining and 347 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 3: then see what it's really like. 348 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 4: And and uh, there's a. 349 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 3: It's it's a it's a grand ruin. It's this crumbling structure. 350 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 3: The National Park Service runs it right now, and they 351 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: they do restore it, but there are a lot of 352 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 3: damaged areas and so forth and falling apart. 353 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 4: And there's there's a weird beauty to it as well. 354 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 3: There's these long corridors with with arches and beautiful symmetries. 355 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 3: If you, if you're a photography you can really try 356 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: and do some interesting shots there. And then of course 357 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: there's the real history about this fort, which was built 358 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: to protect American coasts and commerce and then and then 359 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 3: and then participate in the Civil War. You know, the 360 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 3: enemies became fellow Americans, right, and so it was important 361 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: to the naval blockade and so on. And one of 362 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: the interesting bits of history is that doctor Mudd had 363 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 3: wound up going there. This is the guy who treated 364 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: John Wilkes Booth in the hours after the shooting of 365 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 3: Abraham Lincoln Booth flees Washington shows up at the door 366 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: of of of doctor Mud and has his broken legs 367 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: set and there's a big count. You know. So Mud 368 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: was arrested as one of the conspirators, and there's been 369 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 3: a big controversy about whether he was really a conspirator, 370 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: whether he was a victim of over zealous federal prosecutors. 371 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 4: You know, spoiler alert, he actually was a conspirators. That 372 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 4: was like doctor Yeah, he knew John. 373 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: Wilkes Booth ahead of time, and they had they had 374 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: they had made some you know, they knew each other. 375 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 3: There's a reason John Wilkes Booth went there. At any rate, 376 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: he was he was not sentenced to death. The way 377 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: some of the Lincoln conspirators were. He was sent to 378 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 3: this fort which had become a prison for a lot 379 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 3: of soldiers who had deserted and court martialed and that 380 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 3: kind of thing. He spent a couple of so, I think, 381 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 3: you know, three four years there, treat some victims when 382 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: when when there was a yellow fever outbreak, and eventually 383 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 3: President Andrew Johnson pardoned him, which was you know, we've 384 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 3: always had controversial pardons and this was this. 385 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: Was one of them. 386 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 3: But it's just fascinating piece of history attached to this 387 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: place as well. So I was able to go there, 388 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: which is just you know, as a place I've been 389 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 3: thinking about for a long time. It was just a 390 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 3: pleasure to go and see and then and then to 391 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: work in these bits of history. 392 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: Well, I loved your piece on it. It sounds like it 393 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: really lived up to your expectations, which I think is 394 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: not always the case when you like envision something for 395 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: a long time and then you go see it. I 396 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: think a lot of times I don't want to say 397 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: the Alamo, but I feel like the Alamo for some 398 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: people might might be that where they they picture it 399 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: in their head and they get there and it's not quite. 400 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: Well, it's small right, get there and it's like surrounded 401 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 3: by big buildings, right, you know. I remember the first 402 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 3: time I went to Mount Rushmore, which is a greatlace. 403 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: Everybody should go beautiful in the Black Hills. I remember this, like, 404 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: I thought'd be bigger. 405 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 4: My first reaction. 406 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, so so I don't want to say it's disappointed. 407 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 3: I was thinking that's. 408 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 4: Interesting, right, but this, this was, this was this was 409 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 4: this was a great trip. 410 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: And and and I'm I was happy to write it up. 411 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: My real thing about the Alamo is a lot of 412 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: people use it for like shorthand a fortifying something like 413 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: it's going to be fortified like the. 414 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: Alamo or whatever. 415 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: Now that I have a history buff Sun, I'm like, hey, 416 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: do you guys know everybody. 417 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: Dies at the end? 418 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: Didn't I don't feel like that's a well known fact. 419 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, remember the Alimal. 420 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: Remember I wasn't really sure what we were remembering there. 421 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: Here's what you need to remember that everyone's dead. Well, 422 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 2: so what do you worry about? 423 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 4: What? 424 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: What is your like, I guess overarching concern it could 425 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: be about anything, harol. 426 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 3: I worry about whether the Detroit Red Wings are going 427 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 3: to make the Stanley. 428 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 4: Cup playoffs this year. 429 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: Do you think they are? 430 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 4: I don't know. 431 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: I mean, I have a serious answer, but as actually 432 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: it's actually something I spent a lot of time worried about, 433 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: you know, watching the games, checking the standings and so on. 434 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: You know, when the win yesterday, I know, I mean 435 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: the whole thing. 436 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 4: Oh oh, I'm. 437 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: New to hockey. I just know Florida one last year. 438 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 3: So okay, yes, congrats to the Panthers. They've they've won 439 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 3: four times since nineteen ninety seven, so they had a 440 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 3: long draft and they were really good for about twelve 441 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 3: years or so, or fifteen years, and then they've been 442 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 3: they've been shut out of the playoffs for a while, 443 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: but maybe this year. So fingers crossed. But I do, 444 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 3: I do, I do have a I spent a lot 445 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: of time worrying about the residence. But what I really 446 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 3: worry about where about my kids. And that's a conventional 447 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: thing to say. I suppose everybody worries about their kids. 448 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: The new part of this for me is that mine 449 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 3: are grown. They're all out of the house. If they've 450 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 3: graduated college, they're off in the world, they have jobs, 451 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 3: they're they're all doing fine too. 452 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 453 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: But you know when when you when you're a parent, 454 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 3: you have little kids, you're you're you're worried about them 455 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 3: all the time. I mean, I'm not a worry ward 456 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 3: but you know, you want to make sure the three 457 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: year old doesn't run in the street, or is the 458 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 3: sixteen year old going to drive home okay tonight? You know, 459 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 3: maybe on the icy streets. You know, you have those 460 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 3: ordinary worries and then relief when it all works out. 461 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 4: But what I discovered is you just don't stop worrying. 462 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: And you know, I mean little kids, you know, little kids, 463 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: little worries, right, big kids, like it's adult worries and 464 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: and and now again I'm not a worried where I 465 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: don't spend all my time, you know, helicoptering them or 466 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: anything like. 467 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 4: That, but I think about will they will they. 468 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 3: Flourish in their jobs? Will they find their vocation? How 469 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 3: can I help? How can I do it without meddling? 470 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: You spend tough. Yeah, you spend a lot of time 471 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 4: thinking about that and so so. 472 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 3: And they don't even know it, right, I mean, it's 473 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 3: one you know, it's it's it's an aspect of love. 474 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 4: I suppose this is. 475 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: Why you don't want them to know it, No, not really. 476 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 3: And see, one of the things that occurs to me 477 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 3: is like my own parents for the same way, and 478 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 3: you know, they're gone. 479 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 4: Now I can't talk to them about this, but but. 480 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 3: I now, you know, on reflection sort of at moments 481 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 3: as you know, they when they did things or said 482 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 3: certain things like gosh, they were just worried, you know, 483 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: and in in a in the best kind of way, 484 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: I suppose, And so so that's. 485 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 4: Uh, that's what I worry about. 486 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 3: And I didn't quite expect that it would be that way, 487 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: and yet there it is. And I suppose, you know, 488 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 3: I'm gonna worry about them until until I go and 489 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: you know, they're they're you know, they're old people themselves. 490 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 4: Me, I'll have grandkids to worry about at some point, but. 491 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: That's to be fun. 492 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: But you know, you never you never stopped worrying about 493 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 3: your kids. I've figured out. 494 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: I also feel like, maybe, just based on grandparent interactions 495 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: I've seen, you don't worry about your grandkids in quite 496 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: the same way. It's it's sort of like you trust 497 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: your kids too to handle. 498 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: Joke. 499 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 3: One of the things about the grand kids, you can 500 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 3: hand them back right. I heard a joke Dick Army, 501 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 3: the old member of Congress first person. 502 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 4: I remember telling this joke. 503 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 3: He said, you know what, you know what grandparents and 504 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: grandchildren have in common, don't you? They have a common enemy. 505 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 4: They get along really well. So eddieway, we'll see about that. 506 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 507 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if we're allowed to quote 508 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: Bill Cosby, but Bill Cosby had one where he said 509 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: that he wasn't raised by the same person as his 510 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: kid's grand grandmother, because that's a that's just an old woman. 511 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: Trying to get into heaven. 512 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 4: That's about right. 513 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, we're. 514 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: Going to take a quick break and be right back 515 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 516 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: So what advice would. 517 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: You give your sixteen year old self if you had 518 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: to kind of do it? 519 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's that's a tougher one, because I'm not 520 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 3: sure I want to tell my sixteen year old self 521 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: anything in the sense that I'm kind of pleased with 522 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: how things turned out. And I'm enough of a science 523 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 3: fiction nerd having read all these novels and so forth, 524 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: especially when I was sixteen, to be aware of time 525 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 3: travel and the way that they change up. Yeah, you 526 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: change something you mess up the future, right and and 527 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 3: there there are lots of things I can imagine saying 528 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 3: to my sixteen year old self to like, you know, 529 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 3: fix something that I did. But you know, life is 530 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 3: full of accidents and and a lot of the best 531 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 3: things come out of the bad things, and and and 532 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: and part of me is just like, I'm not going 533 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: to tell that kid a thing because it's it's gonna 534 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: be okay, it's gonna work out. 535 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 4: And you know what, am I going to do? What 536 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 4: I was like invest in Apple? 537 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 3: You know, I mean it's like, yeah, not a bad one, 538 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: but you know that would have changed everything and maybe 539 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 3: for the worst. I mean, you know, having money is 540 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: not the best thing. Having money, especially when you're young, 541 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: can be a kind of curse. 542 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 543 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: And and if I'd had if I'd had a lot 544 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 3: of money when I was young, I wouldn't have worked 545 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: as hard, probably wouldn't be at Hillsdale today. You know, 546 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: all the things that I love about my life right 547 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 3: now that i'm they might go away if I if I, 548 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: if I were to say something to my sixteen try 549 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: and you know, change the future in a sense. And 550 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 3: I'm reminded of you know, one of those books I read. 551 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 4: When I was young. 552 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I read Ray Bradbury and he has these great 553 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 3: short stories and one is called A Sound of Thunder 554 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 3: and it's a it's a time travel story where the 555 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 3: the idea is that that this company has figured out 556 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 3: how to do time travel and if you're a hunter, 557 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 3: you can go back in time and hunt a t rex. 558 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 3: You can go and shoot a t rex like this 559 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 3: can be your you know, your trophy animal. And the 560 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 3: idea is, you know, they'll figure out they'll go find 561 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 3: the t rex that's about to die anyway, so that 562 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 3: if you shoot it, you won't change the future, right, 563 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: but you can have this experience where you'll go and 564 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 3: hunt the t rex. Like what more could a hunter 565 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: ever want to do than that? Right? So they they 566 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 3: send these they send this group of hunters back in time. 567 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 3: They've identified, you know, tagged the t rex that they're 568 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 3: going to get or whatever, and they send them back 569 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: in time and they're like, you know, don't step off 570 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 3: the path, you know all these other things you gotta 571 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: you gotta do. Of course, one guy steps off the path. Yeah, 572 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 3: they do get the t rex and then and then 573 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: they come back into the you know, the present time 574 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: where they're going to brag about having shot the t 575 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 3: Rex and everything's different. They live in a fascist society. 576 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 3: The people English is different. It's it's spelled differently, people 577 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 3: speak differently. Everything has changed, and they're like, you know, 578 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: what happened And and as as as they're undressing one guy, 579 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 3: the guy stepped off the path, looks at the bottom 580 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 3: of his shoe, his boot or whatever, and there's a 581 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: dead butterfly. And you know, so the idea is the 582 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 3: idea is he stepped on that butterfly and that's what 583 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 3: changed the future. So so it's a goofy idea. But 584 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 3: but as typical Ray Bradbury is well told, it's entertaining 585 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 3: and it deals with this sort of interesting concept that 586 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: that you know, speculative and so forth. 587 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 4: It's about time travel. Like you know, I love that. 588 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: I love that answer because a lot of people do 589 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: say by apple yeah. 590 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, so so so so I just don't want 591 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: to go tell my sixteen year old self to like 592 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: go do something, go step on the butterfly. 593 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: Then you know, yeah, so that's that's my answer. I do. 594 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 4: I do a fun answer though. 595 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: But I would also just add that it's also because 596 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, and very Russian superstitious, so touch would But 597 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: it's because you love your life. It's you know, a 598 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: lot of people have a lot of things they would 599 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: tell their sixteen year old self because they would want 600 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: to change some outcomes. 601 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: And it really does show something. 602 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 3: I have a lot of blessings and I've had a 603 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 3: I've been fortunate, and I just don't want to mess 604 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 3: that up. 605 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 4: And I guess that's part of the conservatism in me, right, 606 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 4: the small c conservatism. But I do a fun I 607 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 4: have a fun answer too, Karen, right, tell me, I 608 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 4: thought that. 609 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: The shooting t Rex was the fun answer. 610 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 3: But Okay, if you're going to say, like, if you're 611 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: going to say like that's a cop out, you have 612 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 3: to say something. 613 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 4: You have to give some kind of advice. Here's what 614 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 4: I'm going to say. 615 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 3: I'm going to say to my sixteen year old self 616 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: that in the near future, you're going to hear about 617 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: this band called Nirvana, and you're really gonna like Nirvana 618 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 3: when you're in college, and you're gonna have a ticket 619 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 3: to see them play in a small Detroit nightclub on 620 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 3: the Nevermind tour, and you're not going to go to 621 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: that concert because you have the gre the next morning 622 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 3: you're thinking about grad school and how you need a 623 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 3: good night's sleep. 624 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 625 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: Responsible, Yeah, exactly like the concert. 626 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 3: Well maybe maybe a little too responsible. So I'm gonna say, 627 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 3: I'm gonna say, go to the concert. 628 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: You actually don't have as many opportunities as you think 629 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: you will. 630 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 4: Yeah exactly. 631 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean at the time, I actually thought, well, 632 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: I'll just see them on the next. 633 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: Tour, right right, because why wouldn't you? 634 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, And well that never happened, or at least I 635 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 3: didn't have a chance. So so that's what I'd say, 636 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 3: go to the go to the show. 637 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: I love that. 638 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: I have loved this conversation. Really one of my favorite 639 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: interviews I've ever done. And I actually don't say that, 640 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: so I really, I really really mean it. 641 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: Leave us here with your. 642 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: Best tip for my listeners on how they can improve 643 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: their lives. 644 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 3: So part of me wants to say, you know, fine, 645 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 3: faith very well, you know that kind of thing. But 646 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to say some a little bit different. I'm 647 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 3: gonna say, go to the sources. And and here's what 648 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 3: I mean by that. Because I run a journalism program, 649 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 3: people are often asking me how should I consume the news? 650 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: How can I become a good reader of the news, 651 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: and and and the thing I'm always saying, well, how 652 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 3: do you get your news? And I read what's on Twitter, 653 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 3: you know, on social media whatever, and that's it. 654 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 4: And you can turn Twitter. 655 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 3: Into a really good news feed. I mean, we kind 656 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 3: of get the Twitter we deserve, right. 657 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, you can. You can. 658 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 3: You can make and it something great which is full 659 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 3: of like funny pet videos and sports scores and and 660 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 3: an interesting news and commentary whatever you can. 661 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 4: You can, but it's not sufficient. 662 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 3: And if if you're gonna, if you're gonna get all 663 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 3: of your news this way, you are just basically a 664 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 3: slave to the algorithm. You're letting big tech decide for 665 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 3: you what the news is and what you're gonna hear 666 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 3: about it. And so I'm always saying, go to the sources, 667 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 3: Go to the the find the publications that you love 668 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 3: and that you trust, Go read those websites. Make that, 669 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 3: make that a part of what you do as you 670 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 3: gain news and information about the world. And and and 671 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 3: you know, use Twitter by all means. But but you know, 672 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 3: I start my day I read several newspapers and going 673 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 3: to the websites, reading newspapers, and I miss the days 674 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 3: of like actual newspapers you can spread out in front 675 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: of you and read, you know, in print. 676 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 4: I'm old enough to miss all that. I think they 677 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 4: those they still do. I still get a couple. But 678 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 4: but I'm on, you know, I'm on. 679 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: I'm online doing this and and going to the sources 680 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 3: and look. Journalism today is is what I would say, 681 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 3: is it's never been worse, and it's never been better. 682 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,959 Speaker 3: I mean, the media is full of lies and misinformation 683 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 3: and ignorance. It's horrible. The media is a gigantic, horrible cesspool. 684 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: On the one hand, On the other hand, some of 685 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 3: the very finest journalists artwork today, and it's never been 686 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 3: easier for people to get news and information than it 687 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: is right now. You can read newspapers in other cities, 688 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 3: you can read newspapers from on the other side of 689 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: the planet. We have this ability to do this kind 690 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 3: of thing. So go out and get it. Go out 691 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 3: and find that information. Don't let the algorithm feed it 692 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 3: to you. Don't take what they are giving you. Go 693 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 3: find the writers you love, the publications you trust, and 694 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 3: go to their sites and see what they're giving you. 695 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 3: Every morning every week. However, whatever frequency you want to use, 696 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 3: go to them, Go to the sources and find out 697 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 3: for yourself rather than having someone feed you your diet. 698 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 2: That's great. Fighte that algorithm. Thank you so much. He 699 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: is John J. Miller. 700 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: Check out all of his writing. Such a fantastic person. 701 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: Get all his books. 702 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: Also. 703 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: I didn't get to talk about that, but he's written 704 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: many books and he's just fantastic. 705 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: Check him out John J. 706 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 3: Miller. 707 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Cheryl, thanks for having on the show. 708 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 4: I love what you do. 709 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marco 710 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.