1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager, and 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: today we are We're pretty excited because both of us 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: are fans of The Expanse, which is a show on 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: sci Fi. It speaks to all of Robert and my 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: interests and man, we both watched the first season, really 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. So we got the opportunity to work together 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: with them and do an episode on their universe, basically 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: taking a look at war and what is the cause 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: of war and human history, but also looking toward the 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: future and basically saying, what's it gonna look like? Yeah, 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: what would interplanetary war be like? Uh? Yeah, this is 14 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: an awesome opportunity. I was already a fan of the show, 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: and it was actually reading the first book by James S. A. 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: Corey when the opportunity presented it itself, and we said, yeah, 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: because we've done this sort of thing before without any 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: kind of advertising support for properties such as Dune, uh, 19 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: the Let's see what else we rain? Yeah, and the 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: ant Man One Man, and none of those people work 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: together with us, but we did it. Because we're fans, 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: and I think I think we might have done something 23 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: like this eventually this year, because once I finally got 24 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: a chance to watch it on Amazon Prime, I just 25 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: fell in love with this show. It is fantastic. Yeah, yeah, 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: it's very well put together show. Uh. I would say 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: that the best pure science fiction show on television right now. Yeah. So, 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: as Robert mentioned, it's based on a series of novels 29 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: by James Essay Corey Now that's a pen name actually 30 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: for Daniel Abraham and Tai Frank. They serve as writers 31 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,639 Speaker 1: and producers on the show as well. And the first 32 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: uh season of the show is based on the book 33 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: that Robert mentioned, Leviathan Wakes, and that book was nominated 34 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: for both a Hugo Award and a Locust Award. We're 35 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: gonna try not to really spoil the show for you 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: at all if you haven't seen it. We're gonna be 37 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: mainly talking about the the mythos that it exists in, 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: right like the universe that they've built for this this show, 39 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: in this series of novels, um the real basic plot 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: and this isn't really getting you much past. Like I 41 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: would say, the first episode is that it's an ensemble 42 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 1: of characters that are scattered around the Solar System. They're 43 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: trying to unravel a conspiracy that threatens to begin a 44 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: war between Earth, Mars and colonies that are within the 45 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: Asteroid Belt. Yeah, and the really cool thing to keep 46 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: in mind, and certainly something we're gonna discuss at length here, 47 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: is that all of this is crafted with with science 48 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: in the forefront um. The authors and the show runners 49 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into making sure that everything 50 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: lines up. Not only were their entertainment expectations and our 51 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: our political intrigue fascination, but but just like, what what 52 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: is our current understanding of science and our current understanding 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: of the universe. What kind of a future does that 54 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: possibly present for us? And to that end, another thing 55 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: we're really excited about is that we are going to 56 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: have an interview at the end of this episode with 57 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: the executive producer on the expanse Naren Shankar. He's also 58 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: one of the show's writers. He's their science advisor as well. 59 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: He has a background in engineering in physics, and so 60 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna ask him questions about how the show treats 61 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: the realities of space, because that really is I think 62 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: it's one of the selling points for me is that 63 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: Space is as much a character as any of the 64 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: other characters, and it's not just a setting. Right. Yeah, 65 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Space is dangerous and big and hostile, uh in this show, 66 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: as it should be. So before we get into the 67 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: meat of this show, we want to establish, you know, 68 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 1: what this episode isn't going to be, because we don't 69 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: want you to be, you know, disappointed in what we 70 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: cover and what we don't. This is a huge topic. 71 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: This isn't gonna be us looking at military science really 72 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: or delving into too much about future weapons technology. We 73 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that, but for the most part, 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: we're sticking to what causes war, what motivates war, and 75 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: and really the ultimate end goal of the studies like 76 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: this which have been going on for a long time 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: is how to keep peace. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna 78 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: look at past models of war and how they apply 79 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: in trying to figure out the future of war. But yeah, 80 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to do a detail breakdown of individual 81 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: weapons systems. So we of course have covered some of 82 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: those in the past and may cover them in the future, 83 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: such as our episode from Life Believe the past year 84 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: about the rods from God's the kinetic weapons system proposal, 85 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: and that came up independently in their research. It wasn't 86 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: something that like we were like, well, we're familiar with this, 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: we'll bring this in it. Actually, that's something that a 88 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: lot of people who speculate on what the future warfare 89 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: is gonna look like once we're out in space, kinetic 90 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: weapons immediately came up. So we'll we'll touch on that 91 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: again too, and if you're in and also, one thing 92 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: this this podcast is not going to be is you know, 93 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the Expanse a little bit in it, 94 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: but we're gonna talk at at length about uh, just 95 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: the future of war, war and what war is in general. 96 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: So if you're not into the Expanse, if you're if 97 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: you're just across the board not interested, well I fear not, 98 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: because we're gonna we're gonna talk about a very grounded 99 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: issues here. Okay, so why don't we get into it. 100 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: And then what we'll do is basically, as we go 101 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: along and we're talking about these various theoretical examples or 102 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: historical examples, will maybe apply it to the expanse. But 103 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: again we're not going to be very spoilery about the 104 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: show in terms of like things that happened in the 105 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: plot or with the characters. It's just mainly going to 106 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: be about like what the setup is for the universe 107 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: there and what it's like two years in the future. Yeah, 108 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: and uh, well you know, I guess we should. Do 109 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: you want to mention any of the characters before we 110 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: move on or yeah, well, I think more so than 111 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: the characters, what I mentioned is just like the three 112 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: factions I suppose, and so set that up for people, 113 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: which is that Earth is Earth still exists, there's a 114 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: human population on it. It's a single planetary government though 115 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: from what United Nations governed planet. Yeah. And then Mars 116 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: has broken off from Earth. Mars is populated by human colonists, 117 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: but they have a more technologically advanced colony I guess. 118 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: So they have like a pretty intensely powerful military. They 119 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: have like stealth ships things like that. Uh, And that 120 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: they Mars and Earth are kind of teetering on the 121 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: brink of a it's like a Cold war basically. And 122 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: then the last faction is the Asteroid Belt. Uh. They 123 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: refer to themselves as Belters. Uh. And that basically serves 124 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: as like many colonies scattered throughout the Asteroid Belt of 125 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: basically blue collar workers who are out there mining resources 126 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: like air and water. In some type cases it's like ice, 127 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: Like they're they're mining ice and outer space so that 128 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: they can then bring it back and turn it into 129 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: water basically for the survivability of everybody, whether they're on 130 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: Mars or Asteroid Belt. Although Earth pretty much has access 131 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: to all of the resources, we still have. Yeah. I mean, 132 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: if you play fast and loose with the the parallels, 133 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: you can basically look at at Earth. Earth is Is 134 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: is the European planet, Mars is the New World, and 135 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: then the Asteroid Belt is just the the outskirts though, 136 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: the wild, the utter frontier and there, and there's a 137 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: there's a cultural splintering that has occurred really across all 138 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: three domains, right. Yeah. And and the the other thing too, 139 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: I forgot to mention is that the Belt is governed 140 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: by Earth technically, I think like they have oversight, but 141 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: there's also like uh corruption within the Belts government system. 142 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: And then also what would you call it, like a 143 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: grassroots insurgency happening. Yeah, the opcuh quasi terrorists or outright 144 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: terrorist organization depending on how you look at it, because 145 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: there's a large there's a lot of disenfranchisement that goes 146 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: on in the Belts in in the expanse, right, the 147 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: Belters don't seem to have the same rights. Um. Yeah, 148 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: it's a major plot point, all right. So at this point, 149 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and get into the first big question here. 150 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: What is war? What is war itself as a thing 151 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: that humans do, that humans most humans hate and despise 152 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: and fear, and yet we absolutely have not stopped doing it. Yeah, 153 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: we conducted constantly and you know, I had no idea 154 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: going into this research. I mean I had some idea, 155 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: but but not how deep it goes. I mean, there 156 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: are entire departments of study devoted to this. And so 157 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: if you're out there listening and you have some familiarity 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: with this, you may go, why didn't you mention this 159 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: particular theoretical concept about war? You know? Uh, this because 160 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: we really we would have to do an entire podcast 161 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: that's just about for for years just about this topic 162 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: in order to cover everything. So we're gonna try to 163 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: boil it down to some of the major categories of 164 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: of what is war and what causes it gonna read 165 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: three quick quotes here that that that I feel set 166 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: the stage. Uh. The first one comes from a corn 167 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: Karthie's Blood Meridian or the evening Redness in the West. 168 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: And this is These are the words of Judge Holden, 169 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: who has a major character in that book, quasi supernatural villain. 170 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: He says, it makes no difference what men think of war. 171 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: War endures as well, asked men what they think of stone. 172 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: War was always here before man was. War waited for him, 173 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: the ultimate trade, awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the 174 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: way it was and will be that way and not 175 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: some other way. And then in Daniel Quinn's Ishmael and 176 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: Adventurer of the Mind and Spirit, Uh, Ishmael, who's a 177 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: talking gorilla in the book, if you're not familiar with it, 178 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: says the following, my name is Ishmael. Yeah. Is. This 179 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: law defines the limits of competition in the community of life. 180 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: You may compete to the full extent of your capabilities. 181 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: But you may not hunt down your competiti gers or 182 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: destroy their food, or denied them access to food. In 183 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: other words, you may compete, but you may not wage war. 184 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: Now there are a couple of major resources that we 185 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: look to to really ground ourselves here, and the first 186 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: was that apparently the International Association for Political Science Students 187 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: has as a really well written piece that that sums 188 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: up war and its causes. Now, the person who authored that, 189 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: Jan Tudovic. Uh, there's a quote from her that I'd 190 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: like to use to start us off here, and she says, 191 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: if we want to understand or explain how peace can 192 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: be achieved, we have to understand war and its causation. 193 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: And so, uh, this led me to another piece which 194 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: is by a guy named Jack S. Levy, and it's 195 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: called The Causes of War and the Conditions of Peace 196 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: and it's really pretty good review of all the literature 197 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: on this topic. And I think it was written in 198 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: the nineties, so there may even be like a whole 199 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: John More that wasn't covered in this from the last 200 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: decade or so. We pulled other resources to kind of 201 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: tap into that those ideas, but Levy basically looked at 202 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: everything and just threw it into one paper. It's interesting though, like, 203 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: at this point, without even getting into the idea, is 204 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: like the three quotes we looked at, the judge would 205 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: hold that war is this thing that like permeates us 206 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: and and and and pre exists. It's our nature. Yeah, 207 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: Whereas Daniel Quinn would and Ishmael rather would argue that 208 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: that war is this this corruption that we've inflicted on 209 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: the world, and perhaps something we can take back. These 210 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: are of course, both you know, kind of simplistic views 211 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: of it or boiled down views, uh, and that we're 212 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: getting into them the more complex take on the question, 213 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: So Levy establishes, first of all, there's no consensus on 214 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: what causes war, Like, there's a lot of disagreement in 215 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: the academic community about this much less just between us 216 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: human beings. In fact, he says, some people argue it 217 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: maybe such a complex topic that it's it's actually impossible 218 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: to generalize in any manner, but they try. Um and 219 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: that the general definition of war is this quote, a 220 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: large scale organized violence between political units. So if you 221 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: want to differentiate it from other violence, the categorization is 222 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: essentially a minimum of a thousand battle related fatalities have 223 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: to be counted as a metric, and peace is subsequently 224 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: identified as the absence of war. Now, the people who 225 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: study this really deeply, they seem to distinguish between international war, 226 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: civil war, and interstate wars to separate them from what 227 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: I what are referred to as non state actors. I 228 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: think today most people would just say terrorism. Um but 229 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: but violence that's not conducted by a state actor. Right. So, 230 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: to this end, the study of war is actually moved 231 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: more toward what they called low intensity wars. And this 232 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: has been since the end of the Cold War, so 233 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: it's less focused on total annihilation. We're going to talk 234 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: about that for sure. Um Levy also says it's really 235 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: difficult to trace the causes of war because there's so 236 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: many variations on them. Right, So if you think you 237 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: have one theory and you try to apply it to 238 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: every single instance of war, there's gonna be a variation 239 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: in there that just stands out, right, So that makes 240 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: it even more difficult. Um Subsequently, he says he he 241 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: doesn't really buy into the whole human nature argument because 242 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: of that, because there's so many variables, it's not constant enough. 243 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: And Steady says, political scientists seem to be turning to 244 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: h explaining war in peace, while philosophers, psychologists, and biologists 245 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: ask why war war occurs at all in the first place. Right, 246 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: um So that's really just the the general setup. Okay, 247 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: so we've now we've establed is like what war is 248 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: that the ground rules essentially in terms of how academics 249 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: are looking at it, how it's studied. Now what based 250 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: on that? What are the causes? Human nature is socio cultural? 251 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: What are what are all these theories for its motivation? 252 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: The first place that I'd like to point out is 253 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: there is an annual report that's put together by the 254 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: Heidelberg Institute for International Conflict Research every year and it 255 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: examines broadly what what leads to the current conflicts that 256 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: exist in our modern society and they call it a 257 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: Conflict Barometer. Now the edition focused on the following causes 258 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: for war and they have uh that's the latest report 259 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: that's been published because they haven't finished the one yet. Uh. 260 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: They categorize the the intensity of these conflicts, but they 261 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: basically break it down by whether it's a territorial war, 262 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: a war of secession, de colonization, a war over autonomy, 263 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: sys the system in place, or the ideology national power, 264 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: subnational predominance, international power. So that those three kind of 265 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: fall back into that what I was talking about earlier 266 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: in terms of state actors, and then resources, which brings 267 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: us back to our Ishmael quote. And then the last 268 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: one is the other. Paul Goodman has also put together 269 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: a short explanation of this. It's kind of like the 270 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: listical BuzzFeed version. I'm not saying that in like a 271 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: derogatory way. On the causes of war. It's on this 272 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: site called OWL caation and that's a website that's run 273 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: by educators about their academic areas of expertise. And that's 274 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: O w l C A t. Iowan trying to figure 275 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: that out, an OWL on vacation um. And so his 276 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna use his list, the Heidelberg list and levies 277 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: huge combination of theories as sort of like a grounding 278 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: point for us as we moved through all of these. 279 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: And the first one is really the psychology the human nature. 280 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: So do we have war because of our innate inner rage? 281 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: Is it because of the fears of mankind? Are we 282 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: inherently violent? Or maybe ideology is inherent to the human brain. 283 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: This is kind of the the Dawn of of Man 284 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: two thousand one of Space Odyssey idea that the ape 285 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: is inherently violent, maybe pushed a little by the monolith. 286 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: But it all goes back to some some pretty human 287 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: homedy bashing and some creatures skull and realizing this is 288 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: the way, this is the this is the path to ascension. Yeah, exactly, 289 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: and Goodman lumps under this causes like that a lot 290 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: of you are probably thinking they were the first in 291 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: my mind, religion or nationalism or revenge even right. We 292 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: could also potentially play civil wars and revolutionary wars here, 293 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: as they're often motivated by differing ideologies. But when you 294 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: look back at that Heidelberg one, you know, those could 295 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: fall under autonomy or de colonization, secession, things like that, 296 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: so they break it out a little bit more finely. Yeah. Now, 297 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: one one thought that that came to mind as I 298 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: was looking through this is of course, that you're talking 299 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: about fears of mankind and and these different motivations. I 300 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: think it's important to note that that the fear of 301 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: the other is always a key motivator, be it a racial, cultural, 302 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: or linguistic other. The hurdles to our ability to to 303 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: do this continue to pose one of the leading threats 304 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: to peace. That we we inevitably have this just ingrained 305 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: in us, This this barrier to seeing individuals in another 306 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: group as being like us, is having the same values 307 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: as us, Is it indeed being part of us? Yeah? 308 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: You know my favorite example of this, and this isn't 309 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: like an endorsement of the show, I know a lot 310 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: of people have issues with it, but Lost they straight 311 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: up had a group of characters called the Others on 312 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: the Island. That was that really uh demonstrated this in 313 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: a good way and that it was like, Okay, they 314 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: are other from us. We think of them as being 315 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: outside of us and a threat, right and and almost 316 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: not even human in some cases. Uh, And it was 317 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: it was a it was a nice analogy for what 318 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: you're talking about there. Um, if you put it another way. 319 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: There's a guy named Kenneth Walts who's an international relations theorist, 320 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: and he talks about it as the individual is the 321 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: first category of the cause of war. And he says, yeah, 322 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: maybe human nature is the locus of the causes of war. 323 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: We can find it in the behavior of mankind. But 324 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: we're essentially talking about things like selfishness, misdirected, aggressive impulses, 325 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: and and and while these are Waltz his terms, stupidity, 326 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: and he says, look uplifting and enlightening men may lead 327 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: to the elimination of war. So that's why we have 328 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: to study this, we need to scrutinize it um and 329 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: we're gonna keep coming back to that. And I would say, 330 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to put like words 331 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: in the author's not but I would assume that part 332 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: of the project with the expense, is to enlighten people 333 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: to what causes war so that in real life were 334 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: less likely to just engage in that aggression. I mean, 335 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: we have so many different media representations of war is 336 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: just this noble and like even today we see these, uh, 337 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: these these examples of it as this noble enterprise. And 338 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: in our video games, like when we were talking about 339 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: PTSD in the previous so we talked about how like 340 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: so much of the so many of these games are 341 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: just they just glorify, uh, the violent details of war 342 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: and turn it into pure entertainment. And occasionally you'll have 343 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: a game, I forget the name of the game in 344 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: particular that a number of our listeners said, oh, well, 345 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: this one really focuses on PTSD a bit, but of 346 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: course no. But basically nobody wanted to play that game 347 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: because it it did not offer the the glorious vision 348 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: of warfare that we've come to expect from entertainment. Yeah, 349 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: and and also I think we would be out of 350 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: line if we didn't at least give this some acknowledgment 351 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: that in Waltz and in other referrals to war, and 352 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: they referred to it very specifically as mankind and men. 353 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: And you may be saying, well, why why are we 354 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: using those terms instead of humankind. Well, there's actually a 355 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: whole set of feminist theories around the causes of war 356 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: that argue that due to the gendered nature of states 357 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: and cultures, that this contributes to the persistence of war 358 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: in our world politics. So for me, like oddly enough, 359 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: the best fictional example I can think of what this 360 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: would be Wonder Woman, um, which is about to be 361 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: pretty popularized, I think, even more than she already is 362 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: in American consciousness. But there's a big movie about to 363 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: come up this somewhere. Um. But you know, she comes 364 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: from this nation of women that live in peace away 365 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: from men, but they're also a warlike culture, and they're 366 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: capable of mass destruction. Like they they're they're amazons, you know, 367 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: they're literally they're referred to um, so if men invade 368 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: their territory, they're they're like this incredibly powerful military force, 369 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: but but on their own they live in total peace. 370 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: Um Levy argues though, that feminist theories treat gender systems 371 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: as a constant. Again like this is his like argument 372 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: against human nature as being capable of explaining war because 373 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: of all the variations, and so he says, look that 374 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: that also can't explain these variations in war. It's worth 375 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: having as part of our sort of set of tools 376 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: to look at war with. But he doesn't think that's 377 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: the single answer. Well, and it's I've I've studied some 378 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: of this, but before the question, well what have what 379 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: have we had? Matriarchal cultures they engage in the same 380 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: level of war, And you kind of see arguments on 381 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: both sides. Some people say, oh, yes, we would, uh, 382 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: a female lead society would be just as likely to 383 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: engage in warfare as a male lead society. But I mean, 384 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: basically it comes down to the fact we have so 385 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: few models to actually look to on that that we 386 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: we did, we're essentially starting from zero. Yeah, and and 387 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: that is connected to We're gonna talk about hegemony in 388 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: a little bit here, but I think to like again, 389 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: because we don't have examples that we can really look 390 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: to as that say, like one way or the other, 391 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: whether it's gendered or not, as the main cause, it's 392 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: difficult to parse out because we don't have a language 393 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: for understanding it any other way. Um, So that I mean, obviously, 394 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: like I said, there's a lot more to the human 395 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: nature argument. Well, we've in and out of that, but 396 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: that's essentially the human nature psychological component. And then we 397 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: come to the economic argument. This is tied into the 398 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: the Ishmael quote that we had earlier, and this, I 399 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: would say, is where the expanse really seems to fall 400 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: in terms of like what's causing war in the in 401 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: the in storyline, Uh, we're essentially talking here about a 402 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: competition for natural resources and wealth. There's national and international 403 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: and in this case interplanetary power and resources. Now, these 404 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: resources could be precious materials, or they could be livestock 405 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: or natural resources like like oil or minerals. And some 406 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: people believe that as the world's population increases, there's going 407 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: to be an increase in the amount of wars that 408 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: we have because we're gonna be fighting over fundamental essentials 409 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: such as water and food, and this is this is 410 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: kind of what we see playing out on an interplanetary 411 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: level in the expanse right. Oh yeah, I mean especially water. 412 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: The the need for water and among among the Belters 413 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: is one of the key plot points that comes up 414 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: again an Yeah, and Mars too, I think, because like 415 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: they had this amazing technology, but they're on Mars and 416 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: there's you know, there's there's not enough. If there's water 417 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: there in this future, there's not enough to to serve 418 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 1: the population that's there. And they keep talking about how 419 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: they're under like domed cities and everything. They don't breathe 420 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,719 Speaker 1: natural air um and so yeah, and then air of 421 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: course as well would be a commodity um, depending on 422 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: how they generate it. Yeah. And then if you want 423 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: whiskey then and you're in the belt, you're gonna have 424 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: to depend on that moss whiskey. You know, I gotta 425 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: say I I would that. That's the thing. I was 426 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: the most surprised by him saying, like, where are they 427 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: getting all this booze from? Yeah? Yeah, he comes out 428 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: more in the books, but but there's there are a 429 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: lot of discussions, uh with the Thomas James's character where 430 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: he's talking about drinking moss whiskey, and at one point 431 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: he's eating a meal where he has some there's some 432 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: real beans in there, but they're also some that grown beans. 433 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: So there's there's there's so many details that are thrown 434 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: out there and in the books but also incorporated into 435 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: the show. Give you this this idea of the the 436 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 1: the economics of the world, you're you're immersing yourself in. Well, 437 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: Thomas James's character is pretty much constantly drinking, which is 438 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: one of my you know, amusements of his character. But 439 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: that that was definitely something I was like, Okay, this 440 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: fits the like noir detective thing with his character. But yeah, 441 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: that's his character's name. Um man, Yeah, he's he's great 442 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: in this. I'm I'm a Thomas Jane fan. Anyways, as 443 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: you'll probably be able to tell from the ad reads, 444 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: takes dance in this. But but yeah, he's really good 445 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: in it. And yeahs I was immediately thinking probably two 446 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: three episodes and I was like, wait a minute, where 447 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: is he just getting all of this booze from He's 448 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: just constantly doing it. Yeah, So okay, the economic argument 449 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: falls under Kenneth Waltz his second explanation for war, and again, 450 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: like we come back to like various explanations, right, is 451 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: it is it um human nature? Is it economic? And 452 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: he says, yeah, economic, but it's more about the state. 453 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: And he argues that the social and political institutions that 454 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: we create for ourselves, they should be seen as a 455 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: factor in creating war. And if human nature can be 456 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: changed through institutions, which is I would say, essentially like 457 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: the basis of our of our society, right, like the 458 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: idea that like we can live, we can coexist peacefully 459 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 1: under institutions. Uh that, then those institutions should be our 460 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: focus for stopping war. Yeah, because of course humans have 461 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: always competed for resources, just as all species do. I mean, 462 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: it goes back to that that Ishmael quote. Uh we 463 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: and we even wiped out such competing intelligent hominid species 464 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: as the Neanderthals in this very way. I mean, if 465 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: you ever want a model for how humans would coexist 466 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: with another intelligent species, that is sadly our best, our 467 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: best example. It makes me think of and we've we've 468 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: talked about this on the show a bit lately, But 469 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: like the Prometheus myth, like you know, fire was given 470 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: to us by the gods but ultimately ends up causing problems, 471 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: and war is one of those. Yeah, but you know, 472 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to the Neanderthals, you can you can 473 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: look back and there are different arguments about how all 474 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: this actually played out. But exterminating a species just by 475 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: out competing them sort of accidental genocide, I guess, is 476 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: one thing. But to actively wage war over the resources, 477 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: to say I will wipe you out, to get into 478 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: that that sort of you know, that Hellenistic model of 479 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: destroy your enemy city and the dissault the earth, that's 480 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: a that's another thing entirely. Well, why don't we take 481 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: a break and when we come back, we're going to 482 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: continue on with these causes of war. All right, we're back, 483 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: So I know we have a number of fallout fans 484 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: out there. So that quote, famous quote generally uh, narrated 485 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: by Ron Perlman is probably bouncing around in your brain. 486 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: War never changes. But that's that's what you get read 487 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: to you at the beginning of the game. Is your 488 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: your characters walking away with a dog? Yeah, And uh. 489 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: The thing about that quote is that, yes, on one hand, 490 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: the horror of war remains the death of innocence remains 491 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: one of its central tenants. Uh mutual assured destruction being 492 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: the perhaps the purest modern version of this. When you're 493 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: talking about nuclear strikes between superpowers, you're talking about megadeaths 494 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: of civilians. Nice metal reference there, Dave Mustan would be, Yeah, 495 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: that's where they gotta leave. That's where the Yeah. Megadeath 496 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: is a U is basically a way to to measure 497 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: the death that would occur during a large scale nuclear war. 498 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: But even on on like lower levels, there's just horror 499 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: at every level. At two thousand and ten b MJ 500 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: published study pointed out that quote the use of rape 501 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: as a weapon of war has assumed strategic importance unquote 502 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: in in the in the wake of the Second World War. 503 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: So war is is and has always been nothing short 504 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: of just an obscenity. There's your gendered nature of it again. 505 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: And yet to to you know, we can say, all right, Ron, 506 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: you're you're right for the most part. But on the 507 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: other hand, weapons and tactics evolve, as does the shape 508 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: of war, the exact definition of the thing, the ethical 509 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: boundaries of war. We invoke modern laws of war even 510 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: as we've been to break them. UH. The and even 511 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: the laws of war are ancient. Two. We can find 512 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: examples of them in the Mahabarata, the Hindu epic. We 513 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: find them in the Torah. And much discussion continues even 514 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: to this day on the idea of just war theory, 515 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: the idea that you know, if you if you fall, 516 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: if you follow certain parameters both in the execution and 517 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: the reason for war, then there is a just use 518 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: of it. People are still divided on that. Yeah, right, interesting, Yeah, 519 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: you see some of that throughout these theoretical UH applications. 520 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: But also just like the scholars that are struggling with 521 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: this are like trying to come to grips with not 522 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: only like how this works in the grand scheme of humanity, 523 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: but then like in the present tense, right, like like 524 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: how do I apply this to the situation of maybe 525 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: the nation state that I exist in that's currently at war. Now, 526 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: we've already discussed a number of different theories for for 527 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: why we have war, how war works, where it came from. 528 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: Various theories have covered this one that I always thought 529 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: had a nice ring to it. Uh. And again this 530 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: is probably an overly simplistic model there, but there are 531 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: those who are that basically need a few things to 532 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: come together for warfare to be practical. You need surplus 533 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: resources to to necessitate high risk raids and high speed 534 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: mounts to make this sort of long distant strike feasible. Yeah, 535 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: very much. Again, in an economic sense, comes down to 536 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: a risk reward. So there's there's some out there who 537 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: have said but basically comes down to the horse. Before 538 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: individuals had horses, you just weren't able to really wage 539 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: something that was that was war as we think of 540 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: it today. Not everyone agrees with that, but like I 541 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: said that, the basic economic nut of that, I think 542 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: is is very interesting to think about, and as we're 543 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: gonna look to toward the end of this episode, but 544 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: also in the context of the expanse, I mean, once 545 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: we once we invent interplanetary space travel and we have 546 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the next horse essentially, right, although 547 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: I would argue, like the airplane, probably the car and 548 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: then the airplane, right because as we're going to discuss, 549 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: all of these things can be used as weapons on 550 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: their own without even having weapons attached to them. Yeah, 551 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: and when you end up having states and empire, the 552 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: rise of states and empires in human civilization. This changes 553 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: war as well, so they're waging war for resources but 554 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: also for plunder for slave labor. Uh. As William M. 555 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: Dugger pointed out in as a piece online Evolution Theory 556 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: Social Sciences, Volume three, you need the slaves to work 557 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: the natural world into things that you you needed from 558 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: the countryside. And you also needed the slaves to keep 559 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: your cities running. Well. Uh, the places and these are 560 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: the places where you grew and maintain the military required 561 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: to power this sort of awful war based convection of empire. Yeah, 562 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: and and that is definitely like one road empire studies 563 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: are like imperial studies. But all of this leads us 564 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: to the question of whether or not the causes of 565 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: war derived from either international systems, national systems, or individual 566 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: decision makers. Right, So we get back to is it 567 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: is it just one person who's leading us to this 568 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: or is there something fundamentally flawed with the institutions that 569 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: we've created for ourselves. And I would say maybe it's 570 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 1: all three, right, and I probably a lot of these 571 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: studies would too, But possibly it's just one given the 572 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: various scenarios. Right, So, key actors in world politics, they're 573 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: currently seen as sovereign states that are quote acting rationally 574 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: to advance their own security, power, and wealth. That's essentially 575 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: again like the risk reward model, right, Like, all they 576 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: want to do is make sure that their people are secure, 577 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: they have power over at least their own destinies and 578 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: the wealth to lead I guess, happy lifestyles. Now, the 579 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: basics of this are what's referred to as the realist 580 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 1: theory of war, and that is basically that the distribution 581 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: of power is the primary factor in shaping international outcomes. 582 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: And it's it's complicated. It gets even more complicated by 583 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: making assumptions about foreign policy choices in the outcomes of 584 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: various nation states. I mean, we see this playing out 585 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: in the news every day, actually, right like Like so 586 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: an example right now would be like the Russian hacking scandal, right, 587 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: and we see that and it's always in the papers 588 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: referred to as Russia did X or Russia is thought 589 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: to have done why. Right, it's not Russia, it's not 590 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: all of Russia's citizens. It's people within the institutions. If 591 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: that's the case, right, But then you have to ask yourself, 592 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: is it their institution that's flawed or is it again 593 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: like some people say, oh, it's a key actor, it's Putin. 594 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: Putin is the one that's influencing the institution negatively, right, 595 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: who knows. I mean, it's really difficult, like super con 596 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: complex too to dive into, especially on a current events scale. Right, 597 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: you need like years away from stuff like this and 598 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: many more facts than we have to be able to 599 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: make a decision one way or the other. Yeah. I 600 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: think it was David Simon who made the comparison between 601 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: our modern world and the world of of of ancient myth. 602 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: In the ancient myth, you had heroes and you had gods, 603 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: and both both exerted a tremendous amount of power. Um 604 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: more so with the gods, but the heroes could really 605 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: turn the tide as well. And today instead of God's 606 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: we have systems and uh, but we still have a 607 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: place for the individual, and the individual can still be 608 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: tremendously influential or can just be crushed under the heels 609 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: of said god like system. Man, you and I have 610 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: been circling around this topic for a while now and 611 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: I hadn't even realized it. We did the hero episode 612 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: recently or heroism, but then the Wicked Problems episode definitely 613 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: ties into this as well, like it certainly war as 614 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: a wicked problem. Yeah, I mean anytime we cover the 615 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: human condition, I mean essentially we're going to be dealing 616 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: it's on some level with with war. And I gotta 617 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 1: say David Simon, but my go to guy for quotes 618 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: pretty much always trust trust him with what he's saying. 619 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: I follow him on Twitter and I find insights from 620 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: him almost every day. The guy is crazy smart and 621 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: has just really um if you're not, I guess I 622 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: should say who. David Simon is author Homicide, Life on 623 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: the Streets and uh and later of course The Wire 624 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: May Uh so various other projects he's been involved with. 625 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: Those are probably the two big ones recent. Yeah. Yeah, 626 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: so that's how more particularly did a war based when Yeah, 627 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: that's called Generation Kill and is is excellent, maybe the 628 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: best depiction of modern war that I've ever seen in entertainment. Okay, 629 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: So out of these arguments that we're talking about comes 630 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: these capitalist economic systems, and they're seen actually as being 631 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: the best guaranteers of peace. So basically it goes like this, 632 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: that the state has trade and that generates economic advantages 633 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: for state parties, and that the anticipation of war would 634 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 1: disrupt trade, right, so it would also reduce the welfare 635 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: of the people who were living within these nations states. 636 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: So some argue that this is what led to the 637 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: sort of current model of what's referred to as neoliberalism 638 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: that we in the United States existent. Um, but you're 639 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: basically looking at like the the argument is that, like, 640 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: as long as we keep free market trade going on 641 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: between international or in the case of the experience, interplanetary states, 642 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: then that's like a deterrent for war. It's also this 643 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: is the point where I think we should address hegemony. 644 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: Although man hegemony is a really tough topic to dive into, 645 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: I I gotta say, just from me personally, it is 646 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: such a difficult concept that it's still being ironed out 647 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: in many academic circles. But I studied it in graduate 648 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: school and it left my head spinning after every class. Uh. 649 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: In fact, the most difficult book I've ever read is 650 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: called Hegemony and Socialist Strategy by ERNESTO. Leclow and chantel 651 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: Moof uh, that book, it was like, you know, any 652 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: any like a piece of literature that people say is 653 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: like really difficult, like Thomas Pension or David Foster Wallace 654 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: or something like that, or James Joyce, like, this thing 655 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: was so much harder than any time I've tried to 656 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: tackle stuff like that. But let's try to take a 657 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: stab here. It's just a short definition of hegemony so 658 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: we can line it up because I think it works 659 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: within the parameters of the expense and what we're talking 660 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: about now. This is from the Salem Press Encyclopedia entry, 661 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: and the term hegemony is used to refer to a group, state, 662 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: or other entity that exhibits political or cultural dominance over 663 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: another group. And it's used in political science to refer 664 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: to usually countries or states that exert powers over one another. 665 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: But the ancient Greeks actually developed the term uh, and 666 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: they used it to describe the interaction of their city states, 667 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: which were called polis polus is uh with nearby territory, 668 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: so how those city states interacted with their neighbors. Essentially today, 669 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: though it really refers to the domineering behavior of one 670 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: group over another, it may not even necessarily be national actors. Now, 671 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: the power that's wielded by one group over another in 672 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: this case could be military and nature, which you know 673 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: leads to war. But more often it comes due to 674 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: financial or technological superiority, which is backed by military authority. 675 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: We see that in the expanse, certainly with with Earth 676 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: and then how it's connected to the Belt right like 677 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: Earth has you know, they're not like at war with 678 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: the Belt, but they are dominant over the belt and 679 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,479 Speaker 1: they're they're backing that both with their trade of things 680 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: like water, but also with their military authority. The United States, 681 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 1: for instance, is understood to rise to hegemonic status partly 682 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: because of petroleum production and the rise of the automobile. 683 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: Another example in the expense would be that Mars has 684 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: the this like superior technology, but Earth has access to 685 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: resources like air and water. That's what puts them in dominance. 686 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: Usually a hegemonic power encourages cooperation before they resort to force. 687 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: So it's not it's not necessarily always militaristic and warlike uh. 688 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: And in fact, more often than not it's it's seen 689 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: as being ideological. Yeah, but of course it's always worth 690 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: remembering that that war is always in the background. War 691 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: enforce is always in the background of any kind of 692 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: of law and enforcement of law, and even when it 693 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: comes down to paying your taxes, there's a there's a 694 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: long line of things that happen if you don't pay 695 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: your taxes, but the end result can be an official 696 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: showing up at your door armed. So right, it's it's 697 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: always there in the background. I mean you could tie 698 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: that into the the Heidelberg variations and like secessionists or 699 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: autonomous war movements. Um. Now, last bit about hegemony here 700 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: the modern thought modern studies on it were heavily influenced 701 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: by a guy named Antonio gramsc and gram She argued 702 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: that ideology and ways of thinking also acted hegemonically, and 703 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: he wrote these ideas while he was imprisoned as a 704 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: communist during the rise of Mussolini and fascism in Italy. 705 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: So he basically had I think it was like forty 706 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: something like little notebooks that he filled with these ideas 707 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: that were published later. And he thought that hegemony meant 708 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: that the dominant group maintains its control through consent. So 709 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: to your taxes. Example, I consent to paying these taxes, right, Um, 710 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: that that that's basically how it's maintained. But there's always 711 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: possibility of force behind it. This included social classes and 712 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: not just national actors. So in addition, the dominant group 713 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily control all of the areas of a subordinated culture. 714 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: So this is why we have such a heavy amount 715 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: of subcultural theory and studies in universities now entire ideological 716 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 1: systems like democracy, those can be seen as hegemonic. Gram 717 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: She even argued that such concepts are dominant because they 718 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: seem common and they seem natural to those of us. 719 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: But that's because we exist within them, right. So for example, 720 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: the common common example used to illustrate current hegemony would 721 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: be like the idea that America is a Christian nation 722 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: even though it's got a broad diversity of religious beliefs. Um, 723 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,800 Speaker 1: this stuff is really difficult to talk about, as I 724 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, because and gram She and other theorists have 725 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: argued this since then, the very language we use in 726 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: society is formed by whatever the dominant ideology is. Subsequently, 727 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,959 Speaker 1: that makes it difficult to talk about anything that would 728 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: be close to change. So basically, the the hegemonic idea 729 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: here is sort of overlaid on top of all of 730 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: these causes of war alright, So it's war plays on, 731 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: and the the culture of war plays on and undoubtedly 732 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: becomes an enterprise that moves cultures, religions, trade routes, customs, 733 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: all manner of human creations and humans too, across vast distances. 734 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: And it also advances technologies. It serves as the driving 735 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: energy behind human endeavors and mega projects. Uh So, for many, 736 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: War is highly profitable. And that that means if you're 737 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 1: the head of an industry, if you're a CEO. But 738 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: also it means if you're just at some point down 739 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: the chain, you're benefiting from the technology. UM you know, 740 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: the very a lot a lot of times you can 741 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: think of like the very small, uh everyday technologies that 742 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: came out of the Space Race, which of course was 743 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: was part of the Cold War, part of this competition 744 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: between um two superpowers. Yeah, and we see that in 745 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: the expanse as well too. They they did. I kind 746 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: of suspect that the people who work on this show, 747 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: and maybe we'll get something from Duran Shankar about this, 748 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: that they have done their homework like you and and 749 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: before they sat down and they executed this massive project. Yeah, 750 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: I feel like the show lines up with with pretty 751 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 1: much everything we we found in research for this episode. Now, 752 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: War of course also unifies. It has a way of 753 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: distracting individuals from domestic woes, in large part by invoking 754 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: and exploiting the threat of the other. And studies to 755 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: have shown that the horrors of war hardened group bonds, 756 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: and so we end up with just war beginning more war. Yeah. 757 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,240 Speaker 1: In fact, Levy he mentions this is what is referred 758 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: to as the rally round the flag effect, which always 759 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,800 Speaker 1: makes me think of that the page against the machine, 760 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,399 Speaker 1: so rally around the flag. But basically the idea here 761 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: is that leaders anticipate popular support during war, and so 762 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: sometimes it's tempting for them to undertake risky foreign ventures 763 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: or policy simply to bolster their own support. So that's 764 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: something to keep in mind. That is a that is 765 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: a terrifying statement, I think for for everyone to hear 766 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: it right now. But yeah, it's quite scary and not 767 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: the scariest thing that we're going to talk about in 768 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 1: the podcast today. But um, sometimes this is referred to 769 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: in the literature as diversionary theory of war, but sometimes 770 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: it's also done through scapegoating connected to ethno nationalism. So 771 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: not only are you sort of connecting the leader is 772 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: connecting the nation state to community and power, but ethnicity 773 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: to the nation as well, very dangerous stuff as we've 774 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: seen in the past. Now in the expanse, this maybe 775 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,839 Speaker 1: what's going on with both Earth and the Belt as 776 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: they are arguing for war UH to possibly solidify their 777 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: own political power, right like the like the terrorist organization 778 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: and the Belt, like they're basically arguing for autonomy so 779 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: they can solidify their own power, right but like likewise, 780 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 1: Earth wants to solidify their power by keeping the Belt 781 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: under their control so that they have UH an organization 782 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: that's out in space that can can match or at 783 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: least keep them up to date on what's going on 784 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: with Mars and A. According to Levy, democratic leaders who 785 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: initiate wars like this what I was talking about, where 786 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,479 Speaker 1: they're they're scapegoating or where they do the rally around 787 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: the flag effect that's usually unsuccessful and they're more likely 788 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: to be thrown out of power than non democratic ones. 789 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: So that's I suppose encouraging at least. The personal cost though, 790 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: can be much greater to authoritarian leaders, So that makes sense, right, Like, 791 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: if you're an authoritarian leader and you you end up 792 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: taking your nation to war, like if the results are poor, 793 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: either your people are going to overthrow you and probably 794 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: kill you, or you're going to be killed in the 795 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,800 Speaker 1: war that you've conducted. So then this leads to another 796 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: like section of war theory, which is essentially demographic in nature. Uh. 797 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: The idea here being that population growth leads to scarce resources, 798 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: which we mentioned earlier. The ethno nationalism ties into this, 799 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: but also something that's called youth bulge theory, and it's 800 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 1: I don't think it's what you're thinking of. Yeah, there's 801 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: actually an older episode of Stuff to Blow your mind 802 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: and went into this a little bit. I believe it 803 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: was the teenage Brain, Okay, and it talks about In 804 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 1: that episode, we explored how the teenage brain is different 805 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: from an adult brain, that there's there are different priorities, 806 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: like biological priority, priorities to break away from your essentially 807 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: your tribe, to find a new tribe, to find a mate. Thing, issues, 808 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 1: threats all feel that much more immediate. You know, it's 809 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: that you're young. You feel like you can change the 810 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: world or you should change the world, kind of vibe. 811 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: You and I have established previously on the show that 812 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: the human brain doesn't finish even of all until age. Yeah, 813 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: it's kind of one way to think of the teenager. 814 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: Think of the teenager is like a winged ant that's 815 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: supposed to fly and found a new colony. That's essentially 816 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: the idea. So that ties into youth bullge theory. Uh, 817 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: the idea that it depends on how many young people 818 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:51,400 Speaker 1: you have around. And I know this kind of sounds 819 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: like blame the young people for everybody everything, blame millennials 820 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: or whatever. But I mean, these are the stats. About 821 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: eight of the world's civil con flick since the nineteen 822 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: seventies have occurred in countries with young, fast growing populations. 823 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: And this is all according to analysis by the nonprofit 824 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: Population Action International. So youth boom contributed to the rise 825 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: of the Nazis in nineteen thirties too, also contributed to 826 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,800 Speaker 1: Japan's military ambitions in the Pacific, Imperial Japan, UH Tenement 827 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:27,720 Speaker 1: Square protests in China sixties seventies, countercultural revolution in the West. 828 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,319 Speaker 1: Afghanistan experiencing youth bulge in the years following the two 829 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: thousand one US invasion. So you know, all this is 830 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 1: not to say that youth bulge leads directly to war 831 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: or unrest. In fact, I mean in the counterculture revolution, 832 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 1: I think you can you can look to the opposite. 833 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: You can see like a youth bulge movement for for 834 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: for peace however, um, it just provides ample kindling still 835 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,160 Speaker 1: for so for it for social spark of religious or 836 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: ethnic friction, friction, political rivalry, economic disparages, uh, food shortages, 837 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: what have you? Like? It there, the young people were there, 838 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: they have the numbers, they're they're ready to do something. 839 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,439 Speaker 1: What is going to be the thing that animates them? Yeah? 840 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: And what is going to be that? What is going 841 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: to be the methodology they employed? You know, this is interesting. 842 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: I don't have notes about this in front of me. 843 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,240 Speaker 1: This is pure speculation, But I wonder how youth bulge 844 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 1: theory ties into planning what the draft ages for a 845 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,919 Speaker 1: nation's military, if it has a draft. I mean, I've 846 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: always understood it as being like, well, of course, like 847 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,319 Speaker 1: the draft ages, what's twenty five here in the United States? Something? 848 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:36,799 Speaker 1: Oh my god, is it the same thing as when 849 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,839 Speaker 1: your brain stops evolving? No? Surely not the cut off? Yeah, 850 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: what's the cut off age? I'm not sure about the 851 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: cut off, but I guess what I'm getting at is 852 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: like I'd always thought that the draft age was was 853 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: connected to you know, youthfulness being that like you're at 854 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: the peak of your physical acumen, right, like you you 855 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: would be the most efficient at war, whereas like you 856 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: and me at a current age would be okay, but 857 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: like we're probably better off hanging back in the offices 858 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 1: and doing strategy and podcasts. But you know, yeah, part 859 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: of it would seem to be that the mind is perfect, right, that, 860 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: like the mind is prepared for war and malleable. Yeah, okay, 861 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: So now the last bit in terms of causes that 862 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: I just want to add in here is referred to 863 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: as rationalism, uh, in terms of whether or not you know, 864 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about territorial gain or maybe a community slash 865 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 1: nation expanding in nature. Kenneth walt calls this the third 866 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: and final cause for war. He locates it as being 867 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: a description of an international system that has the authority 868 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,840 Speaker 1: to stop states from forcefully pursuing their own interests. So 869 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: ideally this is what the United Nations would be for us, right, 870 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: but it's possible we live in a condition of what 871 00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: Waltz refers to as international anarchy. Uh. In that he says, well, 872 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,719 Speaker 1: do we actually have a supreme authority that can just 873 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: stop war? In its tracks, he says without basically, international 874 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: anarchy under his terms, is a permissive or underlying cause 875 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: of war. And we have too many limitations on the 876 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:21,920 Speaker 1: cooperation between states in our current international system, because, unlike 877 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: in the expanse, at least is how it's been portrayed 878 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,320 Speaker 1: so far on the TV show, Earth is like a 879 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: unified planet that the United Nations actually runs. Presumably there aren't, 880 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: although we do know that there are sort of like 881 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: militia movements, right, um, because one of the main characters 882 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 1: it was like raised in like a militia sort of 883 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:45,239 Speaker 1: cult kind of um. But but more so just that 884 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: like they don't seem to be dealing with international war, 885 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: right They're more concerned about what's going on with Mars. 886 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: They seem to have a sub star Trek level of 887 00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 1: control over their plans. Yeah, that's a good example. I 888 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: was thinking about Star Truck as well in terms of, like, uh, 889 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: what the United Nations is ideally supposed to do, right, 890 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: I guess the United Federation of Planets in that case. 891 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,279 Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna take another quick break and when 892 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: we come back, we're going to take everything we've been 893 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,720 Speaker 1: talking about here. What we know about war in the present, 894 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:25,280 Speaker 1: and we're gonna extrapolate that into the interplanetary future. Okay, 895 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,919 Speaker 1: we're back. So now it's time where we get into 896 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: the I don't want to say fun stuff, but the 897 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: science fiction stuff, uh, and taking these theories that we've 898 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 1: set up in the beginning half of the show and 899 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,879 Speaker 1: kind of extrapolate them outward. How's this going to look 900 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: on an interplanetary scale. Well, fortunately, we have so many 901 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 1: wonderful and not so wonderful sci fi examples to look 902 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: to when it comes to interplanetary war. But but let's 903 00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: stop to consider just the notion of interplanetary war within 904 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: our solar system versus that of interstellar war war between 905 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,040 Speaker 1: between planets and planet terry civilizations that are in separate 906 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,919 Speaker 1: star systems. Okay. One of the issues here, of course, 907 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: is just the very nature of science fiction. Science fiction 908 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,480 Speaker 1: dreams of the future, but it's often about the present, 909 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,320 Speaker 1: or or even about the past. It's an extrapolation of 910 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: our current concerns and anxieties technological, political, spiritual, social, etcetera. 911 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: Taking all of this and then gazing into the future. 912 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 1: Every science fiction property speaks from a particular vantage point. Yeah, absolutely, 913 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,240 Speaker 1: I think that is what makes science fiction so compelling, 914 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: and especially something like the expense. I mean, when I 915 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: watch the expanse, it is not lost on me, like 916 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,000 Speaker 1: here are some lessons or commentary that we can take 917 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: insights away from based on our current situation. Clearly, it's 918 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: obvious that it was written in a post nine eleven 919 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,160 Speaker 1: world exactly, and so when we envision the future. When 920 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: we're trying to envision war in the future, well we 921 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: can only take what we have now and extrapolated. In 922 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,400 Speaker 1: the case of larger scale hot wars between major nation states, 923 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: we're thankfully forced to contemplate older models of warfare, the 924 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 1: world Wars and all of their their horror and and 925 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,400 Speaker 1: truly globe spanning industry. I think we always have to 926 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 1: remember that the Second World War was truly a global affair. 927 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: Virtually no part of the world remained untouched by it, 928 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 1: if not by the actual combat, then at least by 929 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: the economic models of it. Uh. We touched on this 930 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: a bit in our Cargo Cults episode. Likewise, we often 931 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: tend to fall back on our own colonial history, complete 932 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,279 Speaker 1: with its wars and genocides, in order to envision the 933 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,880 Speaker 1: founding of off world colonies and the possible splintering of 934 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 1: planet based states. So let's let's consider that um ran 935 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:49,080 Speaker 1: across A nice source on this. Astrophysicist Michael H. Hart 936 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,680 Speaker 1: wrote about the matter in the book Interstellar Migration and 937 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: the Human Experience, this being a collection of essays by 938 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: different individuals, and he pointed out a few key things 939 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: to keep in mind when applying Earth affairs to an 940 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,759 Speaker 1: interplanetary or interstellar setting. So, first of all, space is huge. 941 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,439 Speaker 1: While technology is drastically reduced terrestrial travel to a matter 942 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: of hours, quote, there is no reasonable hope that future 943 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:19,040 Speaker 1: technology will ever succeed in reducing interstellar travel times two months. So, 944 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,640 Speaker 1: in other words, we were simply contained in this via 945 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: the confines of special relativity, bearing some amazing, miraculous breakthrough. 946 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: We can't beat a beam of light in a drag dice, right, Yeah. 947 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 1: I think that this is an important point to to 948 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 1: just like throw in like we're talking about you know, 949 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,839 Speaker 1: the realities of it, but also like the fictional popularity 950 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: of it, and of course, like what is the biggest 951 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: fictional especially science fictional property right now that everybody knows 952 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,359 Speaker 1: and loves Star Wars, right, but like when you look 953 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: at that there it's interstellar. And I mean, i'd say, 954 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,680 Speaker 1: other than the prequels, it's not necessarily about actual war, right, Yeah, 955 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: I mean it isn't. It isn't, but not in the 956 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,279 Speaker 1: way that we're talking about here. It's more about like 957 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,759 Speaker 1: a group of characters. Yeah, because the reality is that, 958 00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:15,480 Speaker 1: based on our understanding of special relativity, a star to 959 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: star travel would likely work out to at least a 960 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,719 Speaker 1: fifty year journey. And that's the Kessel run, right, Yeah, 961 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: And this is not again, this is this is based 962 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,400 Speaker 1: on what we know conceivable future known technologies and and 963 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:32,320 Speaker 1: foreseeable technologies. This is the limit. This is like a 964 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: hard reality limit, hard argues. So based on this galactic colonization, Yeah, 965 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,360 Speaker 1: it would be possible you could have this sort of 966 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 1: uh you know, Ian in Banks culture universe, Star Wars, Dune, 967 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,239 Speaker 1: what have you. But it would require two million years 968 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,719 Speaker 1: of human endeavor, and during that time we would change drastically, 969 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,800 Speaker 1: so century by century you'd have genetic advances, you'd have 970 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,919 Speaker 1: bimillennial cultural change, like you know, like two different major 971 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,560 Speaker 1: changes every millennium, major genetic engineering events occurring every ten 972 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: thousand years, and natural evolution producing marked changes every million years. 973 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: So basically, the human race that would be able to 974 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,320 Speaker 1: travel from one star to another would be indistinct. They 975 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't look like us like we wouldn't be able to 976 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,160 Speaker 1: tell that they were. You would see change and splintering 977 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: occurring at various levels. So, given the time frame, given 978 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,600 Speaker 1: the distances involved and the limits of travel, we're looking 979 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 1: at a completely colonized galaxy in two million years, but 980 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: one consisting of splintered civilizations and cultures, and even you 981 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 1: could even say special uh to the turn of to 982 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,520 Speaker 1: the tune of a few hundred billion that to match 983 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 1: the number of stars. Now. As a side note, Heart 984 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,880 Speaker 1: also throws out there that since two million years is 985 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,000 Speaker 1: a drop in the bucket compared to the Milky Way 986 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,319 Speaker 1: galaxies ten billion year history, it means that any other 987 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 1: emergence civilization out there would have had the same odds, 988 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,960 Speaker 1: since nothing has seeming expanded throughout the Milky Way Galaxy 989 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,640 Speaker 1: in the previous two million year increment, He says, quote, 990 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,839 Speaker 1: we might reasonably infer that we are the first colonizing 991 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,200 Speaker 1: civilization in our galaxy, and for the moment, probably the 992 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,000 Speaker 1: only species with an advanced technology. If this is so, 993 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,360 Speaker 1: it will be our descendants, who are the who are 994 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:21,400 Speaker 1: likely to colonize and populate the entire galaxy. Yeah, so 995 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,240 Speaker 1: all these distances that we've been talking about, these issues 996 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,640 Speaker 1: would make it difficult, if not impossible, for a centralized 997 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,440 Speaker 1: power or emperor to maintain control over a year one 998 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 1: hundred light year radius area, much less anything larger and 999 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,240 Speaker 1: uh and he Heart points to a quote by the 1000 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,520 Speaker 1: late great author c Arthur C. Clark here, author of 1001 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and one Space Odyssey, who said, all the 1002 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: starborn colonies of the future will be independent. Their liberty 1003 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,560 Speaker 1: will be inviolably protected by time as well as space. Now. 1004 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: Heart also goes on to point out that various other 1005 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,240 Speaker 1: factors contribute to the idea that war isn't going away 1006 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 1: anytime soon. If we move out into into other star systems. Uh. 1007 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: He says that most of the Milky Way Galaxy will 1008 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 1: become populated by more aggressive civilizations and species, and the 1009 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,960 Speaker 1: long range forecast is for continued aggression, war, and change. 1010 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: There is a small silver lining here in Heart's prediction 1011 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:24,560 Speaker 1: of a of a human populated galaxy that still has war. 1012 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,360 Speaker 1: He says that that he believes that interstellar war would 1013 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: be rare, far more rarity than it is on Earth. Again, 1014 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 1: distance and travel have to be factored in. He says 1015 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 1: there might be a war every fifty thousand years in 1016 00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,160 Speaker 1: his estimation. Okay, and I think we're gonna get into 1017 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of why that is. But that that 1018 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,480 Speaker 1: calls into question, you know, when we look at these 1019 00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,480 Speaker 1: fictional examples, the expanse, you know that's about two d 1020 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,240 Speaker 1: years from now. The idea I think that Heart is 1021 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,240 Speaker 1: working from is that like, as we technologically and and 1022 00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:59,080 Speaker 1: biologically evolve, that we will become less of a warlike species. 1023 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,840 Speaker 1: So he's working from I think the human nature composed 1024 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,640 Speaker 1: well and just the limits because they're basically saying that 1025 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: as you're doing with such distances here, that the type 1026 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:13,560 Speaker 1: of governments you see in Star Wars, Dune or Fireflies 1027 00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 1: another example, Uh, these would just be fantastic. How would 1028 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 1: you possibly maintain dominance and rule over these vast distances? Now? 1029 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: Star Wars, Dune and Firefly they all work because you have, 1030 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,680 Speaker 1: essentially because you have a magical faster than light travel 1031 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,120 Speaker 1: system that pops up something that you know that the 1032 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 1: author doesn't have to really explain all that much, but 1033 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,720 Speaker 1: it's there, and it makes this this super fast travel possible. Uh, 1034 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: it makes it comparable to the short travel times we 1035 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,600 Speaker 1: experience now on Earth due to advanced technology. Yeah. I 1036 00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,400 Speaker 1: always wonder, like in Star Wars, especially in the newer ones, 1037 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,760 Speaker 1: when I've been watching them in the theaters, like like 1038 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,400 Speaker 1: how long is it actually taking them when they're like 1039 00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,080 Speaker 1: jumping into hyperspace? You know, like is it is it 1040 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,600 Speaker 1: like what we see on the screen It like three 1041 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:04,320 Speaker 1: minutes or like a couple of days, and we just 1042 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, the director left some of that on the 1043 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: on the floor. They cut out, like the three days 1044 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 1: of them sitting around in the back of the Millennium 1045 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Falcon playing that game with Yeah, that I wish someone 1046 01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,600 Speaker 1: would make that into a video game. That would be 1047 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,360 Speaker 1: about now. It's worth knowing. On the Expanse, we do 1048 01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: not they do not require such a leap of faith. 1049 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,560 Speaker 1: The Expanse does not in the plot in that world 1050 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,960 Speaker 1: does not involve a faster than a light uh speed 1051 01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,960 Speaker 1: travel system. They do have something that's called the Epstein drive, 1052 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,040 Speaker 1: which is a major, a majorly important factor in that world, 1053 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 1: but it's not faster than a light. Faster than light 1054 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,200 Speaker 1: travel remains impossible for humans in the expanse and therefore 1055 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,400 Speaker 1: lines up with a lot of what Hart is saying here. Yeah, 1056 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,280 Speaker 1: and I think that that's why we're able to see 1057 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,480 Speaker 1: such realistic depictions of what's leading up to war on 1058 01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,680 Speaker 1: the expense as well. There's another theorist and author of 1059 01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,959 Speaker 1: nano medicine named Robert A. Free Tis Junior. I believe 1060 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,480 Speaker 1: is how it's pronounced um, and he's often brought up 1061 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,720 Speaker 1: along with Heart because he wrote in the nineteen eighties 1062 01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,120 Speaker 1: about coming up with a more cost effective search for 1063 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,440 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial intelligence, and he did so by using the cardasche 1064 01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,760 Speaker 1: of scale, which you've probably heard us mentioned here before 1065 01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,000 Speaker 1: Robert and previous hosts on the show. I've actually covered it. 1066 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,640 Speaker 1: There's I believe two episodes, right, it's a two parter. 1067 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,280 Speaker 1: I think I want it's been a while videos and 1068 01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: I've written stuff with the side about it. Yeah. If 1069 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,520 Speaker 1: if you're unfamiliar with it, though, I'm going to give 1070 01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:34,560 Speaker 1: you a real brief breakdown. But if you want to 1071 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,160 Speaker 1: go back, we have previous content about that. Uh. Cardaschef 1072 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 1: scale is a theoretical scale that was created in the 1073 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:45,200 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties by astrophysicist Nikolai Kardaschev, and it describes the 1074 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,880 Speaker 1: level of advancement of a civilization based on its ability 1075 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,520 Speaker 1: to harness the energy of its surrounding environment. He has 1076 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,960 Speaker 1: three types. The first is Type one, masters of planetary energy. 1077 01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Type two are the masters of solar system or star 1078 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,720 Speaker 1: our energy, and Type three are masters of galactic scale energy. 1079 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,920 Speaker 1: So I think we're basically talking about gods at that point. Um. 1080 01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,439 Speaker 1: But Freightis argues that since only type two and three 1081 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:19,280 Speaker 1: could realistically afford star probe technology, basically interstellar travel, that 1082 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:24,880 Speaker 1: interstellar warfare would be trivial to civilizations like this. The 1083 01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,360 Speaker 1: energy expenditure of like what we would think of as 1084 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 1: their warships would be minimal compared to the resources that 1085 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:37,280 Speaker 1: they have, So they wouldn't have the economic uh battles 1086 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,720 Speaker 1: over you know, what resources they have for their ships 1087 01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 1: or for their survival like water and air and food 1088 01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,960 Speaker 1: and oil or whatever what have you. Um, And so 1089 01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 1: it's interesting, wouldn't war over economics be less likely than 1090 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,919 Speaker 1: well in the expanse, it's arguable, I think there's still 1091 01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,160 Speaker 1: a Type one civilization, right, so that this line ends 1092 01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,120 Speaker 1: up with what Heart's talking about here. They they've only 1093 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:08,440 Speaker 1: conquered the planetary resources, the energies of one planet. I 1094 01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,560 Speaker 1: haven't really gotten out of the Solar System as far 1095 01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,040 Speaker 1: as I can tell. Yeah, and of course here in 1096 01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,320 Speaker 1: the actual modern world we're still level zero. So fumbling 1097 01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,919 Speaker 1: for that for the first rung on the ladder. It really, 1098 01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, thought exercises like this really make you consider 1099 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,800 Speaker 1: and realize that we aren't all that in terms of 1100 01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,160 Speaker 1: like how we like to think that we're so far 1101 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,640 Speaker 1: evolved along the line of human history. But it's like, well, 1102 01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,120 Speaker 1: in terms of what this guy imagined and was able 1103 01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,919 Speaker 1: to sort of quantify with this theoretical scale, we're still 1104 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,000 Speaker 1: zero now. I also turned to a great thread that 1105 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 1: was on Cora about how interplanetary war would be fought. Normally, 1106 01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:51,680 Speaker 1: I don't do this for our podcast episodes or for 1107 01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:53,720 Speaker 1: research that we do here at how stuff works, but 1108 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,200 Speaker 1: we're getting into pretty speculative territory. So I wanted to 1109 01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,160 Speaker 1: see what crowdsourcing the question brought up there were. Turned out, 1110 01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:02,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of smart people that contributed to 1111 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,240 Speaker 1: this thread, and the two things I wanted to mention 1112 01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:09,120 Speaker 1: in particular. The top post was by somebody named Micaal Danilac, 1113 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,200 Speaker 1: and he argued that interplanetary war would be all about 1114 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,600 Speaker 1: who had the best technology to destroy their enemies, and 1115 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,160 Speaker 1: we see that playing out in the expanse right because 1116 01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,920 Speaker 1: the stealth tech for ships, in the discovery of something 1117 01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to mention it because of spoilers and 1118 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,720 Speaker 1: plot points, there's something that's discovered, basically on a scientific 1119 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,440 Speaker 1: level that can turn the tide of war. Danaec argues 1120 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:37,040 Speaker 1: there's four possible results for interplanetary war mutually assured destruction, 1121 01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:38,880 Speaker 1: which brings us back to what we were talking about 1122 01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,080 Speaker 1: with the butter war in our episode. But the butter 1123 01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 1: battle um a race to get the best technology first. 1124 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:48,840 Speaker 1: So then the person who has that technology or the 1125 01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,480 Speaker 1: sorry not the person, but the entity I guess the 1126 01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:53,800 Speaker 1: planet in this case, would be the winner that takes 1127 01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:59,000 Speaker 1: everything uh intervention by a more powerful civilization. So I 1128 01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,280 Speaker 1: think he's essentially talking about aliens here, that like aliens 1129 01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,080 Speaker 1: would come in an intervene in an interplanetary war and 1130 01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:10,280 Speaker 1: be like WHOA, Like we're we're Kardashiev type three halt 1131 01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, or uh total war, which unfortunately, a lot 1132 01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:20,520 Speaker 1: of the examples that we found seemed to indicate that 1133 01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,880 Speaker 1: even like preliminary beginnings of an interplanetary war would lead 1134 01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:27,720 Speaker 1: to what we see today as just being all out destruction. 1135 01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:32,800 Speaker 1: Another poster named Chris Rapier argued that the mass movement 1136 01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,560 Speaker 1: of troops and equipment that were used to in warfare, 1137 01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,800 Speaker 1: it just isn't feasible in space, regardless of whether it's 1138 01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,800 Speaker 1: interstellar or interplanetary. So it probably wouldn't involve us like 1139 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,720 Speaker 1: having vast fleets that moved through space because it's too expensive, 1140 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,920 Speaker 1: and the fleets would be like huge targets. They'd be 1141 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:53,800 Speaker 1: super vulnerable, right, So, like again like Star Wars, like 1142 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,920 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of like the stuff, the Clone Wars stuff 1143 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:57,640 Speaker 1: right where they've got these like big ships that are 1144 01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,480 Speaker 1: dropping all these clones stormtroopers on planets and they're then 1145 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,760 Speaker 1: they're entered, they're engaging in these massive battles, right Like 1146 01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,520 Speaker 1: those ships would just be like huge targets from so 1147 01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:12,080 Speaker 1: far away because the theoretically the planet's technology would be 1148 01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,840 Speaker 1: able to detect them and shoot them down. Yeah, Like 1149 01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,720 Speaker 1: this is a classic example of the Star Wars. What 1150 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,320 Speaker 1: you have essentially is World War two in space. Like 1151 01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,040 Speaker 1: it's a it's a futuristic take on that level of warfare. 1152 01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,920 Speaker 1: And warfare technology, and that leads us to possibly the 1153 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,560 Speaker 1: most disturbing study I've read in all of my time 1154 01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:36,840 Speaker 1: on stuff to blow your mind, the lethality of interplanetary warfare. 1155 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,640 Speaker 1: That's right now to set up, let's talk just a 1156 01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:45,000 Speaker 1: minute about colonialism. So, in order for planetary expansion to 1157 01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:49,280 Speaker 1: take place, something very much like colonialism has to occur. 1158 01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,080 Speaker 1: We can think, I think we're all on board with 1159 01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,760 Speaker 1: this concept. Right, you have to discover, you have to explore, 1160 01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,440 Speaker 1: you have to settle, then you colonized and the colony grows. 1161 01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,440 Speaker 1: But then we know what comes next. Rice, Right, in 1162 01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,040 Speaker 1: the case of of so many colonies here on Earth, 1163 01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:06,360 Speaker 1: there's this there's a more gradual easement of ties. You know, 1164 01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,400 Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a long process, a a 1165 01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:14,840 Speaker 1: long divorce that occurs between colonial master and colony. But 1166 01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:19,160 Speaker 1: especially since we're Americans, it's impossible to avoid the American 1167 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,040 Speaker 1: Revolutionary war model. And this, of course is when the 1168 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,240 Speaker 1: former British colonies waged war against the British Crown in 1169 01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,880 Speaker 1: order to gain independence. So autonomy. Yeah, so we might 1170 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,280 Speaker 1: logically look to the possibility of the colonized Mars for 1171 01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:36,920 Speaker 1: ideas on how this might go down. And in the expanse, 1172 01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,320 Speaker 1: we go into the book, uh, into the books, into 1173 01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,560 Speaker 1: the TV series with an independent Martian state that's ruled 1174 01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:47,760 Speaker 1: by the Martian Congressional Republic and uh. In the back 1175 01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,440 Speaker 1: story here, there was an attempt to succeed by the 1176 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,280 Speaker 1: Martians and it nearly came to war. But then the 1177 01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,840 Speaker 1: Martian forces, the forces developed the Epstein Drive that already mentioned. 1178 01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,200 Speaker 1: They had to. They developed it first, and they game 1179 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:04,480 Speaker 1: technological superiority. So suddenly they had the advantage over Earth. 1180 01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,680 Speaker 1: With this technology, they could travel faster, uh, not as 1181 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,760 Speaker 1: fast as White but like the they had the fastest 1182 01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,440 Speaker 1: ships in the Solar System. So then they reached out 1183 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:16,320 Speaker 1: to the U N and they said, hey, you need 1184 01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:20,120 Speaker 1: this technology too, Why don't we just trade. You give 1185 01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,479 Speaker 1: us our and our independence and you can have the 1186 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,240 Speaker 1: steam drive as well. This is why when the show begins, 1187 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,800 Speaker 1: basically like when we see like these super fast like 1188 01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,320 Speaker 1: fighter kind of ships in outer space, people just automatically assume, oh, 1189 01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:36,160 Speaker 1: it's got to be the Martians because they're known for 1190 01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:41,960 Speaker 1: having both the fast technology and stealth technology. They took 1191 01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,599 Speaker 1: an unprecedented technological leap, like nothing god like, but enough 1192 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:49,439 Speaker 1: to where it prevented outright war. Now, one of the 1193 01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,639 Speaker 1: big areas too of consideration here when we are comparing 1194 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:56,520 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War to any of these sci fi Martian examples, 1195 01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:00,759 Speaker 1: is that the Revolutionary War and entailed late eighteenth century 1196 01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,920 Speaker 1: military technology, and at the time it took four to 1197 01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:06,719 Speaker 1: five weeks for a vessel to reach the United States 1198 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,799 Speaker 1: from England. So that brings us to this paper. Robert 1199 01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,400 Speaker 1: really sets us up because colonialism is important to the 1200 01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,560 Speaker 1: argument that's presented here. The authors their names Crawford and 1201 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:21,320 Speaker 1: Baxter Ian A. Crawford and Stephen Baxter. Baxter or some 1202 01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:23,599 Speaker 1: of you may be familiar with he is a British 1203 01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,160 Speaker 1: hard sci fi author. They basically argue that because of 1204 01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:32,439 Speaker 1: the confinement necessary for life supporting facilities in space, any 1205 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,320 Speaker 1: kind of revolution against a governing body like what we 1206 01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, we think of with the American Revolution, or 1207 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:41,719 Speaker 1: like what is sort of set up as the preface 1208 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,840 Speaker 1: for the Expanse, it would be hazardous and basically impossible 1209 01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:50,599 Speaker 1: because of the energies wielded by interplanetary cultures. Any war 1210 01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,439 Speaker 1: like this would be just absolutely catastrophic and it could 1211 01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:58,879 Speaker 1: threaten the entire human species. Yes, so the the intensity 1212 01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:02,560 Speaker 1: of the weapons has changed. But one area where revolutionary 1213 01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:07,120 Speaker 1: war on Earth versus on Mars uh one area where 1214 01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,080 Speaker 1: it lines up kind of nicely is that that issue 1215 01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:13,799 Speaker 1: of distance. Because you think about about the distance between 1216 01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,559 Speaker 1: Earth and Mars um it varies. We have these things 1217 01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,120 Speaker 1: called Mars oppositions. Uh So Mars and Earth, the distance 1218 01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:25,000 Speaker 1: between the two it's it's constantly changing. The maximum distance 1219 01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,320 Speaker 1: between the two planets is a colossal two hundred and 1220 01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:31,519 Speaker 1: fifty million miles with the Sun between us. The average 1221 01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,400 Speaker 1: distance is more like one hundred forty million miles. But 1222 01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:38,240 Speaker 1: the closest popular possible distance is a tantalizing thirty three 1223 01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,080 Speaker 1: point nine million miles. So the closest we've come to 1224 01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:44,960 Speaker 1: that window in in recent history was two thousand threes 1225 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Mars opposition of thirty four point eight million miles, but 1226 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,720 Speaker 1: in July. But on July two thousand and eighteen, coming up, 1227 01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,960 Speaker 1: that will give us thirty five point eight which which 1228 01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,360 Speaker 1: ain't ain't bad at all. Were get going, yeah, and 1229 01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,280 Speaker 1: we won't see anything like that again until and then 1230 01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,960 Speaker 1: only by four hundred thousand miles. So I know these 1231 01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:07,400 Speaker 1: are big numbers to throw around, but the basic idea 1232 01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,000 Speaker 1: here is that that even in the future, there is 1233 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:16,719 Speaker 1: still an enormous Atlantic Ocean between colonial Master and Colony, 1234 01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:20,200 Speaker 1: and it's an Atlantic ocean that shrinks and expands depending 1235 01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,840 Speaker 1: on on planetary rotation. And think about the resources that 1236 01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,000 Speaker 1: you would need not only to uh have such a 1237 01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,040 Speaker 1: venture take off, but also to accommodate such a venture 1238 01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,640 Speaker 1: on such a long journey. Yeah, so, and it was 1239 01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:36,960 Speaker 1: basically Atlantic ocean and the Earth to Mars void wouldn't 1240 01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,000 Speaker 1: be that different. A hundred and fifty to three hundred 1241 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,880 Speaker 1: days to travel to Mars based on current in your 1242 01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,759 Speaker 1: future propulsion. But again that's that weaponry, as you mentioned, 1243 01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:47,800 Speaker 1: that's where it's going to be different because we live 1244 01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:49,320 Speaker 1: in a world of the w m d s and 1245 01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,920 Speaker 1: most terrifyingly of all, we have that mutually assured destruction. 1246 01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,479 Speaker 1: Nuclear weapons alone put an entirely different spin on the 1247 01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,720 Speaker 1: possibilities for interplanetary war. And we should mention that in 1248 01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:03,160 Speaker 1: the Expanse, it's established in the first episode that they 1249 01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:05,840 Speaker 1: have nuclear weapons and they use them in space. Yes, 1250 01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,400 Speaker 1: Now that that paper we're talking about by Crawford and 1251 01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:12,439 Speaker 1: Baxter they point to, So it's a really cool paper. 1252 01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:14,240 Speaker 1: If you get a chance to to read it look 1253 01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:16,839 Speaker 1: it up. They point to several different sci fi examples, 1254 01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:21,040 Speaker 1: but they they mentioned Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars novel 1255 01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:26,559 Speaker 1: because it highlights that an un terraformed Martian civilization would 1256 01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:29,040 Speaker 1: be highly susceptible to attack. So all you have to 1257 01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,200 Speaker 1: do is crack the dome, damage the environmental support system. 1258 01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,280 Speaker 1: There's a part in the novel where high oxygen levels 1259 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:38,720 Speaker 1: are introduced into a dome enclosure so that they can 1260 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:42,360 Speaker 1: flash burn everything without damaging the infrastructure too much like 1261 01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,679 Speaker 1: total recall. Yeah, yeah, and uh and the yeah total 1262 01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:50,120 Speaker 1: recall I think provides a nice hostile um view of 1263 01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:56,240 Speaker 1: what Mars colony could, in broad strokes be. Uh, it 1264 01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,880 Speaker 1: would be vulnerable to attack. All you'd have to do 1265 01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,519 Speaker 1: is just attack the infrastructure, and that it includes not 1266 01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:03,960 Speaker 1: only any domes or cities on the ground or under 1267 01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,439 Speaker 1: the ground, but also orbital space elevators other things that 1268 01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:12,320 Speaker 1: are key to maintain this umbilical core between a planet 1269 01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,400 Speaker 1: that is that only has like just a small amount 1270 01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:19,080 Speaker 1: of life on it and the the life sustaining home planet. 1271 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,200 Speaker 1: So again, like not only would the ships that would 1272 01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,080 Speaker 1: be necessary for warfare between planets be crazy vulnerable, but 1273 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,639 Speaker 1: then like the actual systems that keep us alive out 1274 01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,519 Speaker 1: there would also be incredibly vulnerable. So you're just looking 1275 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,160 Speaker 1: at like, you know, total destruction. And to call back 1276 01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:40,040 Speaker 1: to our Rods from God's episode, um, kinetic weapons alone 1277 01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:43,120 Speaker 1: would prove devastatingly effective against the planets surface, So you 1278 01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:46,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't even need nuclear weapons in this scenario. Yeah, and 1279 01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:49,400 Speaker 1: so let's just touch on this real quick. But Robert 1280 01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:51,040 Speaker 1: and I had an episode last year on this that 1281 01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:54,840 Speaker 1: again was very disturbing, but it is essentially about the 1282 01:13:54,920 --> 01:14:00,400 Speaker 1: idea of uh to dropping huge items. In this case, 1283 01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:03,679 Speaker 1: I think they were metal, metal telephone pole sized beams 1284 01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,760 Speaker 1: from outer space on targets on Earth that would have 1285 01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:10,479 Speaker 1: the yield of a nuclear weapon in terms of like 1286 01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,719 Speaker 1: how much energy is exacted upon their target. Now, space 1287 01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,599 Speaker 1: weapons and vehicles are already being developed in the United 1288 01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,080 Speaker 1: States and other nations so that we can establish supremacy 1289 01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:22,960 Speaker 1: and outer space. Right. Much of this we know this. 1290 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,400 Speaker 1: It came from the Cold War and the need for 1291 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:29,280 Speaker 1: a missile defense system in space. Uh and and that's 1292 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:31,800 Speaker 1: where sort of the Rods from God idea came from. 1293 01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,840 Speaker 1: If you go back to that episode, we talked about um. 1294 01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:35,800 Speaker 1: I believe his name was Pornell. He was the one 1295 01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,280 Speaker 1: who sort of pitched this theory. And again he was 1296 01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,680 Speaker 1: a science fiction writer who essentially ended up working for 1297 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:43,600 Speaker 1: the United States government. So when you see stuff like 1298 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,640 Speaker 1: the expanse, it's not all that uh, it's it's not 1299 01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,560 Speaker 1: all that unfeasible that you know, these guys might be 1300 01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,200 Speaker 1: coming up with ideas that are used in future incursions. 1301 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:57,280 Speaker 1: So Crawford and Baxter in their paper, they bring this 1302 01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,680 Speaker 1: to the front of their argument, beginning with the War 1303 01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:03,080 Speaker 1: of Worlds and the idea that in that the Martians 1304 01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:07,200 Speaker 1: could have just totally destroyed Victorian England with simple kinetic 1305 01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:10,160 Speaker 1: energy bombardment from outer space. The only reason they didn't 1306 01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:12,439 Speaker 1: is because they wanted to colonize the planet. They wanted 1307 01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,720 Speaker 1: something left over. Yeah, I mean because one of the 1308 01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,320 Speaker 1: things about Rods from Gods that we that we that 1309 01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:19,200 Speaker 1: we covered in the episode was that the reason it 1310 01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:24,360 Speaker 1: wasn't a feasible um weapon system for modern humans is 1311 01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,240 Speaker 1: that you have to get that stuff into orbit. You 1312 01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:29,879 Speaker 1: have to have orbital dominance to then drop these weapons. 1313 01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:32,200 Speaker 1: But if you're a space faring civiliza, if you're just 1314 01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:35,920 Speaker 1: an interplanetary civilization leaving Earth going to Mars, you already 1315 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:41,640 Speaker 1: have orbital a dominance exactly. Just having the ability to 1316 01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:47,160 Speaker 1: travel in space at an interplanetary level allows you or 1317 01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,439 Speaker 1: others to subvert space travel technology and turn it into 1318 01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:54,879 Speaker 1: kinetic weapons. And this is where it gets super disturbing 1319 01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:58,320 Speaker 1: for me. This proposal is exactly what was done with 1320 01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,360 Speaker 1: airplanes on September a leventh in two thousand one. So, 1321 01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:06,479 Speaker 1: for example, the kinetic energy of our current International Space 1322 01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:11,160 Speaker 1: Station's orbit that is equivalent to three keylow tons of 1323 01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:14,840 Speaker 1: t n T, and that is nothing compared to the 1324 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,560 Speaker 1: energies of inner planetary craft that we may have in 1325 01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,880 Speaker 1: our future. By Crawford and Baxter's estimation, the kinds of 1326 01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,400 Speaker 1: ships that we see flying around in the Expanse, they 1327 01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:29,839 Speaker 1: would have the kinetic energy equivalent of the energy release 1328 01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:35,280 Speaker 1: in an all out nuclear war. It really, really that's 1329 01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:39,200 Speaker 1: super scary. The idea that like anybody, whether it's the 1330 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:43,760 Speaker 1: civilization that possesses that technology or maybe like a in 1331 01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:46,599 Speaker 1: in the case of it could happen in the expanse world, 1332 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:48,960 Speaker 1: right like a terrorist organization takes over some of that 1333 01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:51,880 Speaker 1: technology just flies a ship into a planet. It would 1334 01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:57,200 Speaker 1: utterly annihilate the human civilization that's there really makes you 1335 01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,800 Speaker 1: think a little bit more. On that episode that we 1336 01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,400 Speaker 1: it on the cases against Space and like all the 1337 01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:06,760 Speaker 1: arguments about why we shouldn't travel into space, I don't 1338 01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,719 Speaker 1: remember this being one of them. Like just the simple 1339 01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,800 Speaker 1: fact of us creating the technology that would allow us 1340 01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:17,439 Speaker 1: to travel between planets could be subverted to destroy humanity. Yeah, 1341 01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:21,840 Speaker 1: Like there's a proportional scale for a technological creation. So 1342 01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:26,880 Speaker 1: an automobile is also a murder weapon. An airliner is 1343 01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:31,640 Speaker 1: also a weapon of mass destruction, and therefore you can 1344 01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:34,960 Speaker 1: extrapolate that and just say that, Yeah, spaceship is a 1345 01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,880 Speaker 1: weapon of genocide. Totally have used in that direction. Yeah, 1346 01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:41,280 Speaker 1: I never even thought about that before. I mean Star Wars. 1347 01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:43,680 Speaker 1: Just think about Star Wars. What if Han Sola just 1348 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,800 Speaker 1: like flew the Millennium Falcon at warp speed into the 1349 01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,040 Speaker 1: Death Star? Yeah? Well, I mean isn't that how the 1350 01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:54,679 Speaker 1: President deft the Aliens and Independence Day? That need just fly? Yeah? Yeah, 1351 01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:56,560 Speaker 1: not a spaceship. I think it was like an and 1352 01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:58,559 Speaker 1: And I also never saw the sequel that came out 1353 01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:00,640 Speaker 1: last year, so I don't know he's in it, but 1354 01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,400 Speaker 1: I think how he and he died. No no, no, no, no, 1355 01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,080 Speaker 1: maybe Randy Quaid. It was Randy Queen flew it up. 1356 01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:12,080 Speaker 1: Uh we we so quickly forget the sacrifices of Randy Quaid. Um, 1357 01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:16,240 Speaker 1: this all comes back to real basic like strate strategy 1358 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:19,240 Speaker 1: in terms of warfare. Right, So, a higher location has 1359 01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:23,320 Speaker 1: always been strategically important in war. It provides an advantage 1360 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,320 Speaker 1: to whichever side has it. Uh, Robert and I and 1361 01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:28,160 Speaker 1: those of you who are dn D player whos would 1362 01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,479 Speaker 1: understand this is simple dn D mechanics, Right, You get 1363 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,800 Speaker 1: a plus two to your role if you're above your 1364 01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,800 Speaker 1: opponent and they are prone. So, thinking about it on 1365 01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,519 Speaker 1: a larger scale, if you're in outer space and the 1366 01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:42,519 Speaker 1: planet is below you. You know, even though we've been 1367 01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:45,840 Speaker 1: talking about how vulnerable those ships would potentially be if 1368 01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:48,559 Speaker 1: they're on a suicide run though, or or even if 1369 01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,240 Speaker 1: there's nobody in it there just you know, remotely flying 1370 01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:54,640 Speaker 1: this thing into a planet, it's absolutely devastated. I think 1371 01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,800 Speaker 1: that in modern D and D rules you would get 1372 01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:01,160 Speaker 1: an advantage on your role fifth edition. Yeah, that's true. Um. 1373 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:05,519 Speaker 1: As such satellites have become really valuable just in terms 1374 01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:08,600 Speaker 1: of our modern warfare. For deploying troops. Right, this is 1375 01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:10,960 Speaker 1: where we got GPS from. We all have GPS on 1376 01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,120 Speaker 1: our phones now and it's the greatest thing ever, right, 1377 01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:17,080 Speaker 1: But it came out of determining what soldiers bearings were 1378 01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:21,560 Speaker 1: using a constellation of satellites, and satellites can also be 1379 01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,400 Speaker 1: used as weapons to shoot down terrestrial missiles. This is 1380 01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,040 Speaker 1: the whole idea of the other Star Wars, the one 1381 01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:31,000 Speaker 1: that Ronald Reagan in the United States established the Strategic 1382 01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:33,439 Speaker 1: Defense Initiative. Yeah, the one I remember as a kid 1383 01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:36,080 Speaker 1: getting they would have My parents would have the news 1384 01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:37,760 Speaker 1: on and they would be mentioned a Star Wars and 1385 01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,639 Speaker 1: like it's happening. They're talking about Star Wars on TV 1386 01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:42,880 Speaker 1: and they're like, no, not something different. The same thing 1387 01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:45,320 Speaker 1: happened to me. I imagine like our parents generation was 1388 01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:51,360 Speaker 1: incredibly frustrated by that branding effort. Uh. It's developing basically 1389 01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:55,240 Speaker 1: as enterprises try to take commercial advantage of outer space. Right, Like, 1390 01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,400 Speaker 1: like in our business, Robert and I are constantly reading 1391 01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:01,840 Speaker 1: press release is about what Elon Musk and other people 1392 01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:05,040 Speaker 1: are doing in terms of like sending commercial ships up 1393 01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:07,960 Speaker 1: into outer space. But likewise, it would be really easy 1394 01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:12,560 Speaker 1: to disrupt the economic advantage of a nation by attacking 1395 01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,559 Speaker 1: its enterprises in space with things like lasers or particle 1396 01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:19,439 Speaker 1: beams or space planes, which has all been proposed in 1397 01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:24,240 Speaker 1: actual warfare here on Earth. This isn't science fiction. And remember, 1398 01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,920 Speaker 1: as we've talked about in previous episodes, we talked about 1399 01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,640 Speaker 1: it a lot in our Star Trek episode. We are 1400 01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:34,439 Speaker 1: currently operating under the Outer Space Treaty of nineteen sixty seven. 1401 01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:38,479 Speaker 1: This is an international agreement that we won't put weapons 1402 01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:42,920 Speaker 1: of mass destruction in orbit, nor will we build military 1403 01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:46,799 Speaker 1: bases on celestial bodies like the moon. But it's vague 1404 01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:50,400 Speaker 1: enough in its language that the area that's just above 1405 01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:54,200 Speaker 1: Earth but not in outer space is accessible. So how 1406 01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:56,600 Speaker 1: do you then? The other question too is how do 1407 01:20:56,680 --> 01:21:00,160 Speaker 1: you define what a weapon of mass destruction is when 1408 01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,200 Speaker 1: you're placing it up there and that that sliver right 1409 01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,040 Speaker 1: if anything like it doesn't we've we've presented here. It 1410 01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a nuclear device. It can just 1411 01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:10,800 Speaker 1: be a It can be the satellite itself, so it 1412 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:14,439 Speaker 1: can be a bunch of telephone poles. So Crawford and 1413 01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:17,000 Speaker 1: Baxter they sum it up like this. Here, I have 1414 01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:19,920 Speaker 1: a couple of quotes from the paper, They say, quote, 1415 01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,479 Speaker 1: the huge energy is routinely deployed by a culture capable 1416 01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:26,519 Speaker 1: of interplanetary travel on a large scale would make war 1417 01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:31,000 Speaker 1: potentially hugely damaging. The kinetic energy of a Mars transport 1418 01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:34,759 Speaker 1: craft would be equivalent to a one megaton nuclear weapon 1419 01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:38,400 Speaker 1: or and presumably would be capable of inflicting great damage 1420 01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:41,160 Speaker 1: on a surface colony or a world like the Moon 1421 01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,560 Speaker 1: or Mars. A craft capable of fast transport to the 1422 01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:48,360 Speaker 1: outer planets would acquire a kinetic energy comparable to a 1423 01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:52,200 Speaker 1: major nuclear war or to a significant asteroid strike that 1424 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:56,920 Speaker 1: could inflict global damage. So the closert civilization comes to 1425 01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,160 Speaker 1: that first rung of the Kardashian scale, the more technologically 1426 01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:06,960 Speaker 1: trivial extinction level offense becomes. Crawford and Baxter uh tell 1427 01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:09,679 Speaker 1: Us quote Our conclusion is that he is that human 1428 01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:14,640 Speaker 1: affairs in an extraterrestrial context cannot be conducted through warfare, 1429 01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:18,240 Speaker 1: which is more likely to destroy the contending cultures and 1430 01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:23,720 Speaker 1: perhaps extinguish mankind altogether, than to lead to any desirable 1431 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:28,320 Speaker 1: political outcome. And their end argument is that before we 1432 01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:31,720 Speaker 1: start cruising around in space, we need to establish a 1433 01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:38,439 Speaker 1: political framework that guarantees colonial liberty without recourse to conflict. 1434 01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:40,880 Speaker 1: This is what really what it comes down to. And 1435 01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:43,080 Speaker 1: almost all of these studies that we've talked about in 1436 01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:46,920 Speaker 1: this episode, when you're looking at war, whether it's how 1437 01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:49,640 Speaker 1: war was conducted, how it is conducted, or how it 1438 01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:54,320 Speaker 1: might be conducted, the essential reason for it is what 1439 01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:58,439 Speaker 1: can we do to keep peace to make sure that 1440 01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:01,000 Speaker 1: this doesn't result in the district auction of our species. 1441 01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:03,160 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about war, We've been talking about 1442 01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:06,000 Speaker 1: the interplanetary war. Let's let's come back to the Expanse 1443 01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:09,240 Speaker 1: and discuss just how the Expanse stacks up to these 1444 01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:14,000 Speaker 1: various ideas and predictions and commentaries. I think, by and large, 1445 01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:16,719 Speaker 1: based on what I've read, what I've seen on the show, 1446 01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:20,040 Speaker 1: I've I've I've gotten to see the premiere episode for 1447 01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,960 Speaker 1: season two and it's and it's really good. I think 1448 01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:27,920 Speaker 1: that the Expanse sticks to most of these ideas exceedingly well. 1449 01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,559 Speaker 1: Remember in the show that the Mars Earth conflict almost 1450 01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,960 Speaker 1: resulted in a war, but that martianal leap and technology 1451 01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:40,839 Speaker 1: with the Epstein Drive that ceased open hostilities. The resulting 1452 01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:43,760 Speaker 1: Cold War threatens to go hot again, but the more 1453 01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,080 Speaker 1: rational players in the game realize that such an open 1454 01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:51,120 Speaker 1: armed conflict would likely prove catastrophic to both sides. There's 1455 01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:54,719 Speaker 1: even a conversation between two Martian characters in the premier 1456 01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:58,600 Speaker 1: episode of season two that explores this very notion, and 1457 01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:01,400 Speaker 1: the Expanse also limits the conflict to our soldar system 1458 01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,639 Speaker 1: and an acceptable realm of influence for one power such 1459 01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:08,519 Speaker 1: as un Governed Earth UH to play a major roll in. Now, 1460 01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:11,600 Speaker 1: while the the UN doesn't exercise such absolute power in 1461 01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:15,080 Speaker 1: the show, we can see where it conceivably could, But 1462 01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:17,120 Speaker 1: we can also see how crazy it would be to 1463 01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:21,360 Speaker 1: expect them to control anything more than they already exert 1464 01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,400 Speaker 1: control over like they're already they've already lost Mars and 1465 01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:27,479 Speaker 1: are struggling to maintain the belters UH. You know, it's 1466 01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,400 Speaker 1: it's inconceivable that they would be able to control anything 1467 01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:34,439 Speaker 1: beyond that. And on that note, we now are really 1468 01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:37,479 Speaker 1: lucky because we have an opportunity to talk to Nuren Shankar, 1469 01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,519 Speaker 1: who is the executive producer on The Expanse. He's one 1470 01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:42,439 Speaker 1: of the show's writers, and like I mentioned at the top, 1471 01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:45,240 Speaker 1: he is also a science advisory as a background in 1472 01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:48,479 Speaker 1: engineering and physics. So we're gonna see what he thinks 1473 01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:51,040 Speaker 1: about these effects of war, and we're also going to 1474 01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:53,719 Speaker 1: take the opportunity to talk to him about how science 1475 01:24:53,840 --> 01:25:06,160 Speaker 1: is portrayed in the expanse. Can you start by telling 1476 01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:09,240 Speaker 1: our audience about your science background before you got into 1477 01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,200 Speaker 1: the entertainment business. My understanding is you have a PhD 1478 01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:17,040 Speaker 1: in engineering and physics. Mm hmm, that's right. Um. Yeah, 1479 01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,720 Speaker 1: I had kind of a weird trajectory coming into the 1480 01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:24,559 Speaker 1: entertainment business. I started at Cornell University as a as 1481 01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:27,600 Speaker 1: a liberal arts student, and a couple of years in 1482 01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:32,840 Speaker 1: I was I was studying like medieval studies and French literature, 1483 01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:36,120 Speaker 1: and a couple of years in I decided to transfer 1484 01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:40,120 Speaker 1: into the engineering school, which most people transfer out of UM, 1485 01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:43,960 Speaker 1: because I, you know, I always loved science and math 1486 01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:47,519 Speaker 1: and and frankly, you know, the job prospects of a 1487 01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:52,200 Speaker 1: medieval studies major work were somewhat um limited and uh, 1488 01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:58,040 Speaker 1: and so so I transferred into applied to engineering physics 1489 01:25:58,080 --> 01:26:00,639 Speaker 1: at Cornell, and I actually stay all the way through 1490 01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:04,479 Speaker 1: to U through graduate school to get my my PhD. 1491 01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:08,680 Speaker 1: And what started happening though, as I was in the 1492 01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:14,639 Speaker 1: process of doing my dissertation, I started just taking tons 1493 01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:19,080 Speaker 1: of courses in history and literature again because I missed it. 1494 01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:22,320 Speaker 1: And I and there was a moment when I was 1495 01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:27,360 Speaker 1: actually I was leaving this amazing lecture and taking a 1496 01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:30,280 Speaker 1: great course in the history of American foreign policy, and 1497 01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:33,439 Speaker 1: I walked out of the hall and and I was 1498 01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,000 Speaker 1: heading back to my lab. I was just like, man, 1499 01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:37,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can go back to this, 1500 01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:42,040 Speaker 1: and you know, it's a It was just a weird 1501 01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:44,439 Speaker 1: circle for me. So I kind of came back to 1502 01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:47,400 Speaker 1: what I had originally wanted to do. But I finished 1503 01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,679 Speaker 1: my thesis and um. When I was done, I almost 1504 01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:53,040 Speaker 1: got a job at Apple, which I would have probably taken. 1505 01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,439 Speaker 1: Um and UM. And I had a couple of friends 1506 01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:01,400 Speaker 1: who were out in in Los Angeles lists that I've 1507 01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:03,960 Speaker 1: got to college with, and they were breaking into the 1508 01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:07,439 Speaker 1: entertainment industry and always done a lot of creative writing, um, 1509 01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, through the years. And I said, come out 1510 01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:11,599 Speaker 1: to l A and b a screenwriter, And I said, 1511 01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:14,360 Speaker 1: sounds great, and I just kind of threw some some 1512 01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,360 Speaker 1: suitcases in my current I drove out to l A. Well, 1513 01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure that all the research that you've done though 1514 01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:23,560 Speaker 1: with history and especially in medieval studies played into the 1515 01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:29,040 Speaker 1: screenwriting right absolutely. And and it's what's interesting is that people, 1516 01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, I I tell the story to people and 1517 01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,040 Speaker 1: they go, boy, here you know where your parents upset 1518 01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:35,200 Speaker 1: that you know were you were? You upset that you 1519 01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:37,479 Speaker 1: know you wasted your education. And I go like, well, 1520 01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:41,479 Speaker 1: you know what, if you get educated properly, Um, it's 1521 01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:44,120 Speaker 1: not a waste because it allows you to approach really 1522 01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:46,800 Speaker 1: complex projects like you know, especially you know when you're 1523 01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:51,560 Speaker 1: a physical sciences major, really digest material, know how to 1524 01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,639 Speaker 1: do research. It's like all of those things come into play, 1525 01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:58,240 Speaker 1: um in what I do now. It's it's it's a 1526 01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:02,160 Speaker 1: complex business making its television show. And you're right, all 1527 01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:04,559 Speaker 1: of those things that the history and the literature, they 1528 01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:09,439 Speaker 1: inform everything that we always do. And um so I 1529 01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:14,760 Speaker 1: think I sort of weirdly or just fortunately kind of 1530 01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:20,240 Speaker 1: landed in the thing that I'm suited for. Um So, uh, 1531 01:28:21,479 --> 01:28:24,680 Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a very enjoyable business for me. 1532 01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:29,280 Speaker 1: I get to exercise the technical engineering side of my 1533 01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:32,200 Speaker 1: brain and then the purely creative side of my brain. 1534 01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:34,320 Speaker 1: So it's it's it's kind of a nice happy medium 1535 01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:38,360 Speaker 1: for me. Well, it definitely shows in the Expanse. I 1536 01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:41,200 Speaker 1: know that you've worked on a lot of television shows 1537 01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:44,799 Speaker 1: before this, but you were talking about those complex projects, 1538 01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:48,040 Speaker 1: and it really seems like the Expanse takes the realities 1539 01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:51,599 Speaker 1: of physics in space seriously for far more than most 1540 01:28:51,640 --> 01:28:54,519 Speaker 1: science fiction television shows. I think our audience would be 1541 01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,960 Speaker 1: interested into how your team treats those realities. And you know, 1542 01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,920 Speaker 1: how does the writer's manage that, How much research goes 1543 01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:05,120 Speaker 1: into you guys choreographing scenes where ships or characters are 1544 01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:09,640 Speaker 1: are operating in zero or low gravity. Well, you know, 1545 01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:13,240 Speaker 1: I think you know that really the credit for that 1546 01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:17,519 Speaker 1: is it's baked into the books because you know Ty 1547 01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:21,160 Speaker 1: Frank and Daniel Abraham, who are collectively James say Query 1548 01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:24,280 Speaker 1: who wrote the Expanse novels. That was that was the 1549 01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:26,920 Speaker 1: approach that they took. They wanted to write something that 1550 01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:31,160 Speaker 1: that had, you know, at least approached the reality of 1551 01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:34,479 Speaker 1: what life would be like in space, and so they 1552 01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:39,120 Speaker 1: thought these things through extremely deeply. Um. I think what 1553 01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:42,000 Speaker 1: happened was when when I was brought in to run 1554 01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:46,800 Speaker 1: the show. Part part of what attracted me to the 1555 01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:51,560 Speaker 1: project was that approach, because you know, I worked on 1556 01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:54,439 Speaker 1: Star Trek the Next Generation. I've done plenty of science 1557 01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:58,439 Speaker 1: fiction over the years. You typically run away from things 1558 01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:01,120 Speaker 1: because they're too hard to does, or you think that 1559 01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:04,680 Speaker 1: people think that they're boring, or the shows are not 1560 01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:09,000 Speaker 1: really about spaceships and and and living in space their 1561 01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:13,320 Speaker 1: metaphors for other things, and so people apply you know, 1562 01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:15,799 Speaker 1: I mean, like let's let's ta battle starts Galactic for example, 1563 01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:18,680 Speaker 1: I show that I absolutely adore. I think it's a masterpiece. 1564 01:30:19,320 --> 01:30:21,760 Speaker 1: But the space, the way they use space in that 1565 01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:27,759 Speaker 1: show was classically World War Two engagements in the Pacific. 1566 01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:30,120 Speaker 1: That's how the whole show is made. That's a because 1567 01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:32,720 Speaker 1: in the episode we were talking about Star Wars is 1568 01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:37,439 Speaker 1: being very similar that they use is I mean, I 1569 01:30:37,479 --> 01:30:40,400 Speaker 1: mean Ron even run more even you know, he he 1570 01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:44,519 Speaker 1: wanted that sort of newsreel footage realism and it was 1571 01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:47,960 Speaker 1: applied to to you know, extremely good effect in that show. 1572 01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:53,240 Speaker 1: But the show is about other things. And what when 1573 01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,479 Speaker 1: I came at the experience, the thing that I thought 1574 01:30:56,520 --> 01:31:00,280 Speaker 1: would be interesting is embrace the concept of space, says 1575 01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:03,720 Speaker 1: a character, because I hadn't seen that done before. Embrace 1576 01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:08,439 Speaker 1: zero gravity, Embrace thrust gravity, Embrace all of these things. 1577 01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:13,680 Speaker 1: Because it distinguished it from other you know, other uh 1578 01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, attempts to do that sort of other other science, 1579 01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:21,080 Speaker 1: which that just completely ignored it because they were too 1580 01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:25,040 Speaker 1: complicated to understand or too weird or too difficult to produce. UM. 1581 01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:29,200 Speaker 1: And and I think it gave us, It has given 1582 01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:32,479 Speaker 1: the show a really unique quality, and everybody seems to 1583 01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:36,479 Speaker 1: respond to it, um because it kind of feels real, 1584 01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, and it just and and we don't comment 1585 01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:43,760 Speaker 1: on it. It's not like it's not a um you know, 1586 01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:49,000 Speaker 1: it's not piled with jargon, but it feels like it's 1587 01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:52,280 Speaker 1: it's a more realistic depiction of the environment than people 1588 01:31:52,960 --> 01:31:56,240 Speaker 1: have typically seen. Um. You know. And with regard to 1589 01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:59,360 Speaker 1: how the writers treated I mean, what ty Thy, Frank 1590 01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:03,160 Speaker 1: and Daniel, you know a ton of science and Tie 1591 01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:07,200 Speaker 1: in particular has thought out the battle and the technology 1592 01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,639 Speaker 1: to an incredible extent. So he's a you know, those 1593 01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:14,040 Speaker 1: guys are walking encyclopedias in the writer's room. They're part 1594 01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:18,479 Speaker 1: of your absolutely, yeah, and that's a very unusual thing 1595 01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:20,479 Speaker 1: as well. But you know the rest of the writers, 1596 01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,800 Speaker 1: they're not about science. Mark Mark Ferguson, Hawk Gosby, who 1597 01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:27,880 Speaker 1: wrote who wrote the pilot. Um, they're not They're not 1598 01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:33,400 Speaker 1: science guys at all. But I feel like writing, putting 1599 01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:37,160 Speaker 1: together a writing staff is is like casting the show. 1600 01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:39,800 Speaker 1: You find the right balance, and we haven't. We had 1601 01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:44,160 Speaker 1: a very very unusual writers room. We had Robin Visz 1602 01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:47,280 Speaker 1: who was on Madmen for many years. We have dand 1603 01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:49,439 Speaker 1: No Racks, who was on The Killing for many years. 1604 01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:52,240 Speaker 1: We have all these people who have never done science 1605 01:32:52,280 --> 01:32:57,040 Speaker 1: fiction before, and and then just trying Daniel who written 1606 01:32:57,240 --> 01:32:59,519 Speaker 1: the novels but they've never really worked in television before. 1607 01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:02,640 Speaker 1: And then there's me, And so that balance has I 1608 01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:06,479 Speaker 1: think hopefully pulled the best out of all of those 1609 01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:10,360 Speaker 1: people from those different different places and put it all 1610 01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:13,759 Speaker 1: into the show and made something I think is actually 1611 01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,919 Speaker 1: quite unusual and special. Yeah, we actually in the episode 1612 01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,519 Speaker 1: itself address this, just saying how much we like the 1613 01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:24,519 Speaker 1: show and that not only is it you know, as 1614 01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:27,120 Speaker 1: as people who do a show like ours our podcast 1615 01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:30,360 Speaker 1: is it is it really interesting on a scientific level, 1616 01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:34,240 Speaker 1: but also that just like the craft of writing of story, 1617 01:33:34,439 --> 01:33:38,640 Speaker 1: of plot of character is all there and just really strong. Um. 1618 01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:42,160 Speaker 1: And from my part, I have to say, like, even 1619 01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,519 Speaker 1: though I do a podcast like this, I always really 1620 01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:49,320 Speaker 1: enjoy this ship maneuvering because it's it just seems like 1621 01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:53,559 Speaker 1: an intuitive level, it's working the right way, Like there's 1622 01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,000 Speaker 1: something about it for me, the way that the ships 1623 01:33:56,080 --> 01:34:00,519 Speaker 1: are moving. It feels so real and I it connects 1624 01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:02,800 Speaker 1: me to the the alex character a little bit more 1625 01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:05,080 Speaker 1: to like, Oh, look at what a great pilot this 1626 01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:09,000 Speaker 1: guy is. He's so casually just like steering this behemoth around. 1627 01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:11,200 Speaker 1: You know, Well, we have a we have a great 1628 01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:15,400 Speaker 1: scene coming up in uh late in season two where 1629 01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:19,360 Speaker 1: we were it's it's not in the books really, but 1630 01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:25,160 Speaker 1: it's some alex Is is hiding behind a moon of 1631 01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:28,360 Speaker 1: Jupiter while the rest of the gang is on Ganymede 1632 01:34:28,439 --> 01:34:31,920 Speaker 1: station and and he has to get down to them, 1633 01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:34,080 Speaker 1: but there's patrols all over the place. So what he 1634 01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:39,920 Speaker 1: does is he plots a a swing shot de orbital 1635 01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:43,200 Speaker 1: trajectory from where he is and just whips around a 1636 01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:47,320 Speaker 1: bunch of moons. Now it's super fun to look at 1637 01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:51,799 Speaker 1: when you actually we actually look at the distances involved 1638 01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:53,960 Speaker 1: in the time it would take to do it, it's ridiculous, 1639 01:34:54,040 --> 01:34:56,559 Speaker 1: which is larger the seas and a ridiculously long time. 1640 01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:58,360 Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, it would take him like, 1641 01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:03,559 Speaker 1: you know, six months but that doesn't quite working at all. 1642 01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:07,120 Speaker 1: Was a joke, but conceptually we're totally on point. Um, 1643 01:35:07,479 --> 01:35:09,560 Speaker 1: so I we we've got a lot of you know, 1644 01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:11,840 Speaker 1: we end up doing that a lot, but where it 1645 01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:15,160 Speaker 1: feels real, you know, And then I think that's that 1646 01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:18,920 Speaker 1: is really the key test at any of these things, 1647 01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:22,719 Speaker 1: where you know what, there's a moment. There's a moment 1648 01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:27,400 Speaker 1: in in the pilot where I wanted a particular shot. 1649 01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:30,599 Speaker 1: It was when, um, remember when the little the little 1650 01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:33,800 Speaker 1: spaceship the Nights that the guys took from the Canterbury 1651 01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:37,599 Speaker 1: they go to find the derelict ship there is. Yeah, 1652 01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:41,040 Speaker 1: so we're looking at the visual effects of those, you know, 1653 01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:43,320 Speaker 1: and I was kind of and it was like it's 1654 01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:45,360 Speaker 1: kind of boring, and I said, you know what, why 1655 01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:48,519 Speaker 1: don't we why don't we have that ship flip, you know, 1656 01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:51,560 Speaker 1: flipping in into like just that last bit of the 1657 01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:54,920 Speaker 1: deceleration burn and the engine plume kind of lights up 1658 01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:59,000 Speaker 1: the ship. That's that there's and it is so beautiful 1659 01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:01,680 Speaker 1: when you see these little maneuvering trusters fire and these 1660 01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:04,680 Speaker 1: ships kind of turned slowly, and and then you know, 1661 01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:09,000 Speaker 1: it's like I find it very beautiful. I mean, all 1662 01:36:09,160 --> 01:36:11,000 Speaker 1: of the ship movements and all of that stuff is 1663 01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:14,439 Speaker 1: really you know, we spend a lot of time, you know, 1664 01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:19,160 Speaker 1: talking about you know, the specifics of how they're gonna look, 1665 01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:21,880 Speaker 1: how the shots are gonna be, you know, how we're 1666 01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:25,400 Speaker 1: going to convey scale, and how we're going to deal 1667 01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:28,720 Speaker 1: with you know, relative speed that's like, and just how 1668 01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:30,800 Speaker 1: the camera needs to move. It's it's it's a whole 1669 01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:35,280 Speaker 1: the whole thing is really it's really fascinating. Um. You 1670 01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:39,720 Speaker 1: don't get into these conversations a lot in in other shows. Yeah, 1671 01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:41,759 Speaker 1: well I think it again, like I think it shows 1672 01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:45,360 Speaker 1: definitely and it's yeah, I mean, I'm just I'm always 1673 01:36:45,439 --> 01:36:47,439 Speaker 1: impressed by it. Yeah, and I'm thinking back to the 1674 01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,120 Speaker 1: scene you're talking about too, and just like it's like 1675 01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:53,720 Speaker 1: ballet and space with ships. That's that's what it was. 1676 01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:58,479 Speaker 1: And it's really you know them It's funny when you 1677 01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:00,639 Speaker 1: go back, like you know, in the history of movies 1678 01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:03,960 Speaker 1: to to look at shows that have treated this kind 1679 01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:07,840 Speaker 1: of stuff. Is you know, the one guy who got 1680 01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,600 Speaker 1: it right was Kubrick in two thousand and one. We 1681 01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:12,519 Speaker 1: bring we bring up two thousand and one in the 1682 01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:15,840 Speaker 1: episode as well. Yeah, it's like, well, and and yet 1683 01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:20,840 Speaker 1: in popular culture people remember like movies like you know, 1684 01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:24,960 Speaker 1: Outlander where somebody's helmet you know, gets peers in their 1685 01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:31,160 Speaker 1: head explodes and so so you know, so we've actually, 1686 01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,559 Speaker 1: you know, any time there's a moment that we can 1687 01:37:34,720 --> 01:37:38,120 Speaker 1: do this sort of stuff to sort of show real space, 1688 01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:41,200 Speaker 1: I try to take advantage of it. There was a 1689 01:37:41,280 --> 01:37:45,080 Speaker 1: moment on I think an episode sixth last season where 1690 01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:47,120 Speaker 1: the rock Hoppers are out of the belt and the 1691 01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:49,360 Speaker 1: guy's having a problem with his helmet and he just 1692 01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:51,519 Speaker 1: flips open the visor and he brings out and you 1693 01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:54,479 Speaker 1: like pulled the wire up and he closes it. It's like, yeah, 1694 01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:57,400 Speaker 1: you can survive in a vacuum. These guys would that 1695 01:37:57,560 --> 01:37:59,560 Speaker 1: that's not a big deal for them, and it was 1696 01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:01,800 Speaker 1: just and I was talking in the room, was like 1697 01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:08,519 Speaker 1: like what don't there they had explodes? Like no, and 1698 01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:12,439 Speaker 1: but but anyways, it's like some things like that, I 1699 01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:15,360 Speaker 1: think are the touches that are really really fun and 1700 01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:19,160 Speaker 1: m I remember when I was first reading a Vibe 1701 01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:21,400 Speaker 1: and wait, the moment I realized I want to do 1702 01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:24,599 Speaker 1: this show. Is that scene in that compartment where Chet's 1703 01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:29,439 Speaker 1: head gets blown off. Yeah, it was like I was, like, 1704 01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:32,920 Speaker 1: I've never seen that before, and that's that's pretty close 1705 01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:35,680 Speaker 1: to what's in the book actually, almost like sort of 1706 01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:39,000 Speaker 1: beat for beat. Now, speaking of the books and the 1707 01:38:39,120 --> 01:38:43,519 Speaker 1: various scientific details, and the authors do a terrific job 1708 01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:46,120 Speaker 1: of working all of these, not not only the big 1709 01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:50,040 Speaker 1: scientific ideas, but they're just the casual science grounding and 1710 01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:53,240 Speaker 1: all the minor details and flourishes, like particularly I think 1711 01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:57,120 Speaker 1: of the moss whiskey, the that grown beans, and the 1712 01:38:57,200 --> 01:39:01,240 Speaker 1: various workplace a pails that are encountered. Um, I can 1713 01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:04,120 Speaker 1: see where was Certainly all the having all these elements 1714 01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:07,000 Speaker 1: at your disposal are helpful and bringing the world to 1715 01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:08,800 Speaker 1: life on the screen. But is it ever I mean, 1716 01:39:08,920 --> 01:39:11,120 Speaker 1: is it ever challenging? You have just all sorts of 1717 01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,719 Speaker 1: references that you wish you had time to fit in. Yeah, 1718 01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,360 Speaker 1: we we do, actually, and we create so many more 1719 01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:21,320 Speaker 1: than you see. Sometimes it's like we would, you know, 1720 01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:23,960 Speaker 1: we don't, like you know, ads that are playing on 1721 01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:27,680 Speaker 1: TV screens for that grown beef and barbecues and like 1722 01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:30,880 Speaker 1: all of this stuff and moss whiskey, and you know, 1723 01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:35,280 Speaker 1: we do as much as we possibly can. All of 1724 01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:37,800 Speaker 1: that stuff is there in the books and so we 1725 01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:40,000 Speaker 1: try to pull it out as much as possible because 1726 01:39:40,040 --> 01:39:44,160 Speaker 1: I think that those things give real texture to the environment. 1727 01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:49,599 Speaker 1: UM and and all of those details and aggregate when 1728 01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:52,240 Speaker 1: when you keep touching on them, when you don't comment 1729 01:39:52,400 --> 01:39:54,479 Speaker 1: on them, it just makes you feel like you're in 1730 01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:57,160 Speaker 1: a different place. It's like when Miller, you know, kind 1731 01:39:57,200 --> 01:39:59,439 Speaker 1: of pours a little whiskey, but he's so used to 1732 01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:01,400 Speaker 1: Coreo list that he just kind of throws it at 1733 01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:03,040 Speaker 1: an angle and it just kind of drops into a 1734 01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:06,240 Speaker 1: glass and in a little spiral. It's like, yeah, we 1735 01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:10,559 Speaker 1: never shows never do that, and it's an expensive little 1736 01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:13,519 Speaker 1: effect and like, but to me, those are the touches 1737 01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:17,080 Speaker 1: that distinguish, and those are the things that really take 1738 01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:20,400 Speaker 1: the show to a different place. And people always notice 1739 01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:27,519 Speaker 1: now thematically speaking, um getting into into the books versus 1740 01:40:27,600 --> 01:40:32,160 Speaker 1: the TV Leviathan Wakes published almost seven years ago, and 1741 01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:36,479 Speaker 1: the series we've seen, I mean, basically the first season 1742 01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:40,360 Speaker 1: in the second season come out on on either side 1743 01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:44,800 Speaker 1: of of a rather pivotal political election here in the 1744 01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:48,960 Speaker 1: United States. We're currently looking at so much international political 1745 01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:52,320 Speaker 1: change as well, so much tension and anxiety. What has 1746 01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:55,280 Speaker 1: it been like to help manage the expression of this 1747 01:40:55,920 --> 01:41:00,320 Speaker 1: particular sci fi vision during the midst of all of this. Well, 1748 01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, let's see, I'm trying to think when we started, 1749 01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:07,600 Speaker 1: when we started development of season one, I think in 1750 01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:13,160 Speaker 1: so that was like, um, yeah, I think like April 1751 01:41:14,160 --> 01:41:17,400 Speaker 1: is when we started, and and so yeah, I mean, 1752 01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:20,519 Speaker 1: you know, the politics of that they have been cooking 1753 01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:24,160 Speaker 1: underneath it ever since. Um. I don't know if it 1754 01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:27,840 Speaker 1: was so much you know, directly influenced it. But there's 1755 01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:30,599 Speaker 1: a theme in the books that we have been very 1756 01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:35,280 Speaker 1: conscious of since the very beginning, and that's about tribalization, 1757 01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:38,800 Speaker 1: and that certainly seems to be you know, something that 1758 01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:45,080 Speaker 1: is extraordinarily relevant right now is that this notion now 1759 01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:50,880 Speaker 1: the moment people start identifying another group of people as 1760 01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:54,800 Speaker 1: the other, as defined by different beliefs or skin color 1761 01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:58,759 Speaker 1: or shape or size or whatever, that that's when problems 1762 01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:02,040 Speaker 1: start happening all about human history. When you can say 1763 01:42:02,280 --> 01:42:05,880 Speaker 1: we're like this, they're not like us, therefore we don't 1764 01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:10,240 Speaker 1: have to like them. That's how Wars begin. And and 1765 01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:15,320 Speaker 1: it's definitely, um a kind of a deep theme in 1766 01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:18,800 Speaker 1: the show because one of the one of the things 1767 01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:22,760 Speaker 1: that we've tried to do is you know, we've kind 1768 01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:26,880 Speaker 1: of mixed people up, um Tie and Daniel always said, like, 1769 01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, the people who go out into space not 1770 01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:33,280 Speaker 1: just going to be you know, Caucasian, you know, Cornfred Nebraska, 1771 01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:37,400 Speaker 1: boys from from the United States. It's gonna be Indian 1772 01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:41,240 Speaker 1: and Chinese and everybody. And the show has done that. 1773 01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:47,400 Speaker 1: And yet the Belters are identifying as different than Birthers, 1774 01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:50,839 Speaker 1: who are definitely defining themselves as different from the Martians, 1775 01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:53,640 Speaker 1: and the same kinds of problems are happening. So even 1776 01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:57,560 Speaker 1: though we've gotten out into space, we've colonized portions of 1777 01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:00,719 Speaker 1: the Solar System once again, we're back at that place 1778 01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:05,679 Speaker 1: where human beings are tribalizing and seeing each other as different, 1779 01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:10,080 Speaker 1: and that way leads the conflict. Nurine, It's like you 1780 01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:13,600 Speaker 1: read our notes for the episode before we called you 1781 01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:17,000 Speaker 1: up here, because we we literally mentioned other ing in 1782 01:43:17,120 --> 01:43:20,679 Speaker 1: the episode as one of the main causes. Yeah, yeah, 1783 01:43:20,760 --> 01:43:23,960 Speaker 1: and and and the diversity in the show and showing that, 1784 01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, how colonization would work out as something we 1785 01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:31,439 Speaker 1: speak to as well. Um. Our episode is focused on 1786 01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:34,880 Speaker 1: the concept of interplanetary war, and then we use the 1787 01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:37,760 Speaker 1: universe of the expanses like a reference point. But in 1788 01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:42,400 Speaker 1: that universe, you know, uh, what are the causes leading 1789 01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:46,280 Speaker 1: humanity to these wars? You know, we what we've seen 1790 01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:49,400 Speaker 1: so far, at least in season one, it seems to 1791 01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:52,280 Speaker 1: be mainly economic in nature. But but like you were 1792 01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:54,800 Speaker 1: just talking about, it seems that there's also a theme 1793 01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:58,000 Speaker 1: here that human nature leads to war no matter where 1794 01:43:58,080 --> 01:44:01,840 Speaker 1: we are. I think the truth of the matter is 1795 01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:06,000 Speaker 1: it's both of those things that when they happen simultaneously, 1796 01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:09,800 Speaker 1: that's when starts to blow up. I mean, you know, 1797 01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:12,760 Speaker 1: human nature is human nature. You're always going to have it. 1798 01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:16,880 Speaker 1: But if you you know, if you have bad feelings 1799 01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:23,160 Speaker 1: and bad ideas occurring in times of economic stress or 1800 01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:29,960 Speaker 1: deprivation or you know, resource constriction, that is a that 1801 01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:33,120 Speaker 1: is a recipe for disaster historically, and you can you know, 1802 01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:36,920 Speaker 1: we have talked, we talk a lot about history in 1803 01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:39,639 Speaker 1: that room. Tie is like he's gotta you know, he's 1804 01:44:39,840 --> 01:44:44,439 Speaker 1: got an encyclopedia knowledge of Roman history. We've also talked 1805 01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:46,240 Speaker 1: a lot about you know, when I first sat now 1806 01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:48,400 Speaker 1: went with the stuff, I talked a lot about The 1807 01:44:48,439 --> 01:44:51,639 Speaker 1: Guns of August, which is which is Barbara Tuckman's book 1808 01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:55,560 Speaker 1: about the beginnings of world War one, and it was 1809 01:44:55,680 --> 01:45:00,600 Speaker 1: like this these you know, these little domino is that 1810 01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:05,000 Speaker 1: just kept knocking into each other, tiny events that led 1811 01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:10,439 Speaker 1: to a cataclysmic event. And we took that approach um 1812 01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:15,040 Speaker 1: through season one and into season two. Is you know, 1813 01:45:16,320 --> 01:45:21,080 Speaker 1: we're building to war. It hasn't quite come yet um 1814 01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:23,760 Speaker 1: in the show, but it's coming. It's like all of 1815 01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:30,000 Speaker 1: these little things, misunderstandings, misapprehensions, information that doesn't get communicated 1816 01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:33,439 Speaker 1: properly or gets misinterpreted in an odd way that makes 1817 01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:37,559 Speaker 1: somebody look bad that I think that's how war has happened. Um. 1818 01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:42,120 Speaker 1: And you know, I'll it take to somebody pushing a 1819 01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:45,400 Speaker 1: button or pulling a trigger. Um. And and so we've 1820 01:45:45,479 --> 01:45:50,920 Speaker 1: we've adopted that concept in our story time. Well it's yeah, 1821 01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:54,040 Speaker 1: it's compelling for sure. Yeah, I guess this. Thanks thanks 1822 01:45:54,120 --> 01:45:55,800 Speaker 1: once again for taking the time out of your day 1823 01:45:55,840 --> 01:45:58,160 Speaker 1: to chat with us and uh and for your work 1824 01:45:58,280 --> 01:46:01,519 Speaker 1: on what has been a very entertaining and thought provoking 1825 01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,519 Speaker 1: science fiction television series. Well, thank you guys so much. 1826 01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:08,800 Speaker 1: It's really our pleasure. And now we we're we we 1827 01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,680 Speaker 1: love the show. Everybody involvement loves the show. We want 1828 01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, we're we are just want people to get 1829 01:46:14,400 --> 01:46:16,880 Speaker 1: out there and see it. It was an interesting trajectory 1830 01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:22,479 Speaker 1: overseason one that, you know, the little further we got 1831 01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:24,760 Speaker 1: along and now we're on Amazon Prime streaming and we're 1832 01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:28,559 Speaker 1: on Netflix internationally. It's like people are discovering it now 1833 01:46:29,040 --> 01:46:31,320 Speaker 1: and it's great to see that because you know, it 1834 01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:33,680 Speaker 1: seems across the board people are really responding to it, 1835 01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:36,599 Speaker 1: and I think they're going to be blown away by 1836 01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:40,719 Speaker 1: season two. It's uh, it's it's got some amazing stuff 1837 01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:43,680 Speaker 1: coming down the pike. So people know we're on the 1838 01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:49,760 Speaker 1: air of February one, all right, So there you have it. Yeah, 1839 01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:52,080 Speaker 1: The Expanse is a really really cool show, really cool 1840 01:46:52,120 --> 01:46:54,439 Speaker 1: book series. Uh. I highly recommend it. I think they 1841 01:46:54,479 --> 01:46:59,320 Speaker 1: play remarkably well with real science, with real cultural and 1842 01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:02,599 Speaker 1: political concerns in a way that entertains you but also 1843 01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:05,920 Speaker 1: keeps you thinking. Yeah, on top of like everything we've mentioned, 1844 01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:09,040 Speaker 1: it has great characters and the storytelling is smart. It's 1845 01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:12,200 Speaker 1: I've binge watched the first season with my wife in 1846 01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:15,040 Speaker 1: less than a week, and I'm very excited about the 1847 01:47:15,080 --> 01:47:17,960 Speaker 1: second season. And if you're if you find yourself though 1848 01:47:18,040 --> 01:47:23,120 Speaker 1: more concerned then entertained by some of the more depressing 1849 01:47:23,160 --> 01:47:26,439 Speaker 1: subject matter in this episode, I'd like to highlight a 1850 01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:29,160 Speaker 1: group that we've highlighted before, and that is the Arms 1851 01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:33,000 Speaker 1: Control Association. You'll find them at arms control dot org. 1852 01:47:33,320 --> 01:47:37,160 Speaker 1: They're founded in nine and it's a national, nonpartisan membership 1853 01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:40,960 Speaker 1: organization dedicated to promoting public understanding of and support for 1854 01:47:41,160 --> 01:47:44,880 Speaker 1: effective arms control policies. Through its public education and media 1855 01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:49,040 Speaker 1: programs and its magazine Arms Control Today. They provide policymakers, 1856 01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:53,400 Speaker 1: the press, and the interested public with authoritative information, analysis, 1857 01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:58,160 Speaker 1: and commentary on arms control proposals, negotiations and aggrievements and 1858 01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:01,080 Speaker 1: related national security issues. So no, no matter what your 1859 01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:04,040 Speaker 1: level of interest, they have something for you, and you 1860 01:48:04,120 --> 01:48:06,880 Speaker 1: can donate at their website to help support their work 1861 01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,599 Speaker 1: to keep keep nuclear war and and war in general 1862 01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:14,280 Speaker 1: UH relegated as much as possible to the pages of 1863 01:48:14,439 --> 01:48:17,840 Speaker 1: history and fiction and science fiction. Yeah, it's certainly going 1864 01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:20,000 Speaker 1: to need to be the kind of group that we 1865 01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:23,599 Speaker 1: embrace before we go into space. And I didn't need 1866 01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:27,040 Speaker 1: for that to rhyme, but we we really need people 1867 01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:31,880 Speaker 1: to think about philosophical and political frameworks before we invent 1868 01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:35,000 Speaker 1: this technology because of what we've discovered in this episode. 1869 01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,760 Speaker 1: So all that said, we'd like to hear from you. 1870 01:48:39,439 --> 01:48:42,000 Speaker 1: Are you a fan of the expanse. How did our 1871 01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:46,720 Speaker 1: depiction of future warfare or the causes of warfare over 1872 01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:49,800 Speaker 1: the courts of history line up with your notions? Let 1873 01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:52,640 Speaker 1: us know, and I have a feeling that some of 1874 01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:55,200 Speaker 1: you are going to have strong opinions about this, especially 1875 01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:57,599 Speaker 1: after I read that Cora threat and I saw all 1876 01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:01,080 Speaker 1: of the various ideas of how people are thinking already 1877 01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:04,719 Speaker 1: about what the possibilities of interplanetary warfare are. The places 1878 01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:08,160 Speaker 1: that you can reach out to us our Facebook, Twitter, Humbler, 1879 01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:11,519 Speaker 1: and Instagram, or you could find us as stuff to 1880 01:49:11,560 --> 01:49:13,840 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com and you can always send 1881 01:49:13,920 --> 01:49:15,720 Speaker 1: us an email at blow the Mind at house to 1882 01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:28,040 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 1883 01:49:28,080 --> 01:49:36,519 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. Remember