1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And since this is the first 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: brand new podcast of this brand new year, we decided 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: to start things off with a bang. Literally, yep, hunting 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: a bang, shooting things. We're starting off with a bang 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: in a pun because we're going to talk about women 8 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: and hunting, and I feel like we should go ahead 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: and just foreworn vegetarians and vegans and animal rights supporters 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: listening that we're going to be talking unabashedly about hunting. 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Although this in no way reflects our personal views on hunting. Yeah, 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: we're not advocating one way or another. Yea. We simply 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about out uh women hunting stuff. Yeah, 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: because hunting is an important and very stuff mom never 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: told you ish topic to cover because, in the words 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: of feminist scholar Mary's Stage, hunting might be the most 17 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: male identified cultural pursuit and things don't get much more 18 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: gender e than hunting. Whether you're thinking about mythology with 19 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: Diana the Goddess of the Hunt, whether you're thinking about 20 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: evolution where you have hunter gatherer societies with men going 21 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: out to hunt and women going to gather and take 22 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: care of the children. And then are more modern conceptions 23 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: of hunting, which are usually men with guns, right exactly. 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: And so it's interesting kind of in our in our 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: research to watch as the attitudes about hunting and about 26 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: women and hunting in particular kind of evolved. But to 27 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: kick things off, there's this theory out there. It's called 28 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: the man the Hunter theory, and it was popularised during 29 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies, and the focus really is 30 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: on the word man, because this theory is about how 31 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: we evolved as upright types of creatures based on the 32 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: fact that men we're going out into the savannah grass 33 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: and they were hunting and they had to stand up 34 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: on their legs, they had to stand upright to be 35 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: able to hunt their big prey. And there's just very 36 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: little in this theory that even mentions women or their 37 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: role or whether they were out there hunting alongside men. 38 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: But there are some wrinkles in this man the Hunter theory, 39 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: not only in terms of women's role in these early societies, 40 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: because first of all, you have researched by Jane Goodall 41 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: which found that male chimps hunt monkeys, And why this 42 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: is significant is that those chimps, which are our closest 43 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: living relatives, which are not upright creed yours, are also 44 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: engaging in this hunting behavior. Right, so it's possible that 45 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: we had ancestors who were hunting before they could stand 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: up right. And now there's this research that was published 47 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: in the journal Current Biology UM talking about chimps in particular. 48 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: And it's not really news that they use tools. We 49 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: know they fashioned sticks to dig worms out of logs 50 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: and things like that, but researchers in Synegal saw chimpanzees 51 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: using tools to hunt and kill. And they saw the 52 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: chimps fashioning sticks into spears and ramming them into trees 53 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: to kill and eat bush babies, and that sounds horrifying. 54 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, well bush baby sounds really cute, um, 55 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: but I don't know what it is, so let me 56 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: google it. And I assumed it was going to be 57 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: a worm or an insect of some type. And it's 58 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: maybe like one of the cutest little animals I've ever seen. 59 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: It's called a gala ghost. Yeah, like galaghos or galagos 60 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: or something. It's like these big eyes, and I'm like, 61 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: oh my god, they're getting hunted by chimpanzee. And while 62 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: that is tragic that these adorable animals are being killed 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: by other animals, which is exactly what human hunting is. 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: But anyway, um, in terms of these chimps in Senegal, 65 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: what the researchers noticed that only one out of twenty 66 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: two instances that they witnessed were male chimps doing the hunting. 67 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: Thirteen of those hunts were actually led by female chimps, right, 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: and so that pairs with the whole theory of Okay, 69 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: so it's possible that we had ancestors who were hunting 70 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: before we were upright, Well, it's also possible that those 71 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: ancestors were female, and in considering the divisions of labor 72 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: among our ancestors human ancestors like chimpanzees. There has also 73 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: been a recent theory postulated about Neanderthals and weather women. 74 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: Neanderthals were also hunting because their body frames were massive, 75 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: they were pretty close in size to male Neanderthals, And 76 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: this was reported on in The New York Times in 77 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: December two thousand six, and it was brought up by 78 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: a pair of anthropologist at the University of Arizona, who 79 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: say that modern humans, starting with the hunter gatherer societies, 80 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: had a division of labor, and the division between the 81 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: hunting and the gathering is really what allowed them to 82 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: outlast Neanderthals, where everybody was probably pitching in to hunt 83 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: large game, right, So that gender equality among the Neanderthals, 84 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: the fact that males and females were out there hunting 85 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: large game, which is broody, dangerous, to get up really 86 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: close to big animals. That left the vulnerable children, the 87 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: young Neanderthals, and the women exposed to basically getting trampled 88 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: just the same as the men. Yeah, because the kinds 89 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: of animals that they would have been hunting would have 90 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: been bison, dear gazells, and wild horses, the types of 91 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: animals that that flourished in Europe in the Ice Age. 92 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: So that means they had to get up pretty close. Yeah, 93 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: they were. They were getting up close to trampling types 94 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: of animals, right. But by the Upper Paleolithic era, which 95 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: is around forty to ten thousand years ago, we have 96 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: that pretty solid division between the men going out to 97 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: hunt and the women still gathering but protecting the quote 98 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: unquote reproductive core Yeah, I like that. That sounds like 99 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: really advanced. That's reproductive core. Yeah, that's what they call 100 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: their their huts, their old school years. Stay at the 101 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: reproductive core while I go bison hunting, That's right, and 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: not get trampled. Yeah. Well, so moving really really a 103 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: lot far forward. Let's look at the wild West and 104 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: just kind of the West in general, westward expansion with 105 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: the pioneers and and everybody moving out west, and how 106 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: we have talked in the podcast before about kind of 107 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: the suspension of gender norms almost with with pioneers and 108 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: people moving out west, because they're moving out of the 109 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: comfort of their Eastern Seaboard homes and going out and 110 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: having to deal with situations and conditions that certainly the 111 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: people they left behind we're not dealing with exactly. And 112 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: Karen Jones writes about this in her paper Lady Wildcats 113 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: and Wild Women Hunting. Gender in the Politics of show 114 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,119 Speaker 1: womanship in the nineteenth century American West, and she talks 115 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: about how in that wild West environment, where you obviously 116 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: need to survive their wild animals around, you're going to 117 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: have to kill them and eat them in order to 118 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: do that, and it's not going to be so much 119 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: up to whether you are male or female as to 120 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: who's going to go out and procure said meat, right, 121 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: is that the fact that there were women out there 122 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: alongside men, And despite that fact, that reality of having 123 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: to have both men and women pitching in alongside each other, 124 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: Despite that, the narratives from the nineteenth century American West 125 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: focus mainly on male hunter heroes, and they're, you know, 126 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: these heroic, brave, rugged types of gentlemen, and the women 127 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: in these stories these narratives are still portrayed even though 128 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: they were pitching in. We're still portrayed as more of 129 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: these subservient companions. Even though, as Jones talks about in 130 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: this paper, hunting was very much a part of surviving 131 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: in the West, and she writes, hunting became part of 132 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: the subsistence culture of the pioneer, a recreational pastime for 133 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: lady adventurers, and a performative device for the public articulation 134 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: of the wild woman. And in no other figure is 135 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: that articulation of the wild woman more embodied, and in 136 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: that of calamity Jane who Jones talks about, Yeah, in 137 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: the kind of hierarchy of the different types of women 138 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: that um Jones discussed us out West, Calamity Janes kind 139 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: of at the top as far as wild women go. 140 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: She pursued traditionally male activities, life style, and dress. She 141 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: hunted alongside men, and she described herself as a fearless 142 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: rider and a good shot. She sort of represented that 143 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: whole Western frontier novelty and as Jones points out, performative 144 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: displays of sporting masculinity. And I mean, so, you know, 145 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: she was this incredible pioneer figure who captured americans imaginations 146 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: back east, back home, but she was certainly not the 147 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: only type of woman out there. Jones moves on to 148 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: the ladies sportsman. Hunting for this type of figure out 149 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: West was sort of, uh an empowering excursion almost. She 150 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: talks about loving the adventure out in the wild, learning 151 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: to shoot and ride horses, transcending the boundaries of conventional 152 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: feminine behavior. These ladies sportsmen were mostly, for the most part, 153 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: I would say, upper class, upper class white women who 154 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: were wealthier, and they weren't necessarily having to go out 155 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: on a hunt and then gut and clean all of 156 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: the things that they killed. But they were out there 157 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: sort of communing with nature. Yeah, they're out there to 158 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: sort of find themselves. And this is this too, is 159 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: where we really start to see that highlight in the 160 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: United States of sport hunting as opposed to subsistence hunting, 161 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: like hunting for things because you need to survive. But 162 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: you see sport hunting being so closely interwoven with class 163 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: because obviously in England you have the tradition of wealthy 164 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: people going fox hunting, and that is something that's carried 165 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: over in certain areas of the United States, and very 166 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: much the lady sportsman is the manifestation of that rich 167 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: white person going out for sport because it would better themselves. Yeah, 168 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: and Jones points out that, you know, despite the fact 169 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: that a lot of those narratives from the time, from 170 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century West, focus on hunter heroes, male hunter heroes, 171 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: she says that women were just as likely to be 172 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: enticed by those stories by the idea of going out 173 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: west with Theodore Roosevelt and his breed of sportsmen adventurers 174 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: to get out there on the game trail with personal 175 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: development of mind. Well, and imagine how exciting it must 176 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: have been at the time. Because this is something that 177 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: popped up in our episodes on Madam's in the wild West, 178 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: and also on the history of women in photography, because 179 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: it's really in the West that photography flourishes. And also brothels, 180 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: but they're led by women because these are spaces where 181 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: there aren't those rules, and so you could go out there, 182 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: you could hunt, you could explore things, you could literally 183 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: achieve a different kind of enlightenment in a way by 184 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: being so close to nature. Um, but we you have 185 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: to round out that list of the types of women 186 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: in the West and hunting with the homesteader. Now, these 187 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: are more of the women who would be involved in 188 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: straight up subsistence hunting, because this is the Laura Ingalls 189 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: Wilder style need to survive and put food on the table, right, 190 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: And those sports sportswomen, I guess sports hunter women, lady 191 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: people would have looked down upon the homesteaders to some 192 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: degree because these people were not, you know, the elite 193 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: from the east. They were actually, like Chris and said, 194 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: they were actually out there trying to make a living. 195 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: And Jones cites homesteads like Evelyn Cameron, who was part 196 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: of a female hunting culture that was really more utilitarian 197 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: and domestic. You would be out there alongside your husband, 198 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: you would be gutting those animals, and you would be 199 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: cleaning them and doing all of the dirty work while 200 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: still having to worry about the laundry and the cooking 201 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: and the cleaning. Yeah, and it's actually with that homesteading 202 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: where you see more of the reinforcement of traditional gender norms, 203 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: with women taking care of more of the domestic, staying 204 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: close by the reproductive core right while the men would 205 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: venture out. Um. But also though, if we look at 206 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: the turn of the century, moving up into the late 207 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred's and early nineteen hundreds, the culture of sport 208 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: hunting has gotten, has has developed to a point to 209 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: where you have entire magazines like Outdoor Life that are 210 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: completely devoted to hunting, and women were very much a 211 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: part of that culture. And this is also when we're 212 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: talking about more of looking at hunting through more of 213 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: a classes lens, where it's seen as a leisurely pastime 214 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: rather than a necessity. And there was in nineteen o 215 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: five an Outdoor Life profile of a quote unquote tireless 216 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: Diana mythological reference there, who would leave her corset at 217 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: home to go out on the hunt. How much fun 218 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: to take the corset off and then go hunting any 219 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: excuse to take the freaking corset off. Well. At the 220 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: turn of the century though, as Andrea Smalley, who researched 221 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: a centuries worth of the sporting magazines to look at 222 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: how women are discussed in the context of sport hunting, uh, 223 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: women at the turn of the century were desired in 224 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: the hunting world because that demographic was seen as sort 225 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: of a legitimizing factor for hunting. They took some of 226 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: the perceived savagery out of hunting and lent some respectability 227 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: to it. So you had in nineteen o five these 228 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: profiles of tyroless Diana's and other women who would go 229 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: out and hunt. Yeah, because this hunting that they're talking 230 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: about is that sports sportsman's hunting, and so they have 231 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,119 Speaker 1: you know, women have a softening quote unquote softening influence 232 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: on the men that they're going out hunting with, which 233 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: we will get too shortly. Is a sentiment that's echoed 234 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: about women and hunting today as well. Well. And the 235 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: one thing too that was mentioned in one of the 236 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: papers that I wanted to look more into but just 237 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: didn't have time, was how also at the turn of 238 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: the century, you have these women who are figuring out 239 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: how to sort of subvert gendered norms and also be 240 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: able to hunt at the same time. So by creating 241 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: their like homemade bifurcated skirts, so they could either ride 242 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: a stride or mastering side saddling in such a way 243 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: that they could still hunt at the same time, which 244 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: seems impossible. I mean talk about reproductive core, Like literally, 245 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: your core would have to be so strong to keep 246 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: you on that horse and balance a gun at the 247 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: same time. I can't imagine. Yeah, so it's pretty incredible 248 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: that these women were going out and doing this. But 249 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: once you move into the mid nineteen hundreds, there is 250 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: such a major shift in the perception of hunting. Obviously, 251 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: there's always been this idea that it is more of 252 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: a man's sport, but by the mid twentieth century, they 253 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: just really didn't women around at all. Yeah, And the 254 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: turning point that Smalley uses as an example is when 255 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: Kristen Sergle wrote a defense of hunting and her gender 256 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: really wasn't a topic at all. In the article that 257 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: she wrote, she said, I just like to kill things. 258 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: And while she certainly wasn't alone during this period, in 259 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: the mid twentieth century. It wasn't exactly a transgressive act either. 260 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: You know, this was still, like we said, sportsman's hunting, 261 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: sportsman's magazines. They weren't trying to necessarily contradict notions of femininity. 262 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: They were just saying, like, I like to kill things, 263 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: and I like to be outside, and I want to, 264 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, be out there, whether it's alongside my husband 265 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: or not. But it's around this time after World War 266 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: Two that men start to respond really negatively to women 267 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: being in sport hunting because it was during that post 268 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: war period that hunting got it sort of modern day 269 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: connotations of it's a man's man kind of activity. I 270 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: go out there with my buddies and I'm going to 271 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: bond with them, especially at this time military vets. Yeah, 272 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,239 Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense that that's going on because you 273 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: have these men who are coming home who have been 274 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: bonding with other men while hold up, you know, in 275 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: trenches with guns, hunting for the enemy in a way. 276 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: So of course they're gonna recreate that kind of activity 277 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: when their states side. And when you look at some 278 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: of the commentary in magazines like Field and Stream and 279 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: Outdoor Life at the time, they are, they're so appalled 280 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: to even have women around because that was that was 281 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: their method of of bonding for some of them. I 282 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: really feel like this whole thing with men feeling like 283 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: women's participation in hunting undermines the sport is echoed so 284 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: strongly in today's discussion about women in football, like men 285 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: liking football, women being fans and going to games, women 286 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: being on the sidelines reporting. I feel like it's the 287 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: same thing because around this time, men are saying that 288 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: women are undermining basically the significance of the sport, the 289 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: the like the genuine aspects of it, well in the 290 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: sacred space that they have. It's like, women, listen, don't 291 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: you have the entire home. You have all these new 292 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: appliances post World War Two that you're being given and 293 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: it's making your life amazing. Let me go out by 294 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: myself into the woods and commune with nature. And you 295 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: also have to remember too that after World War Two 296 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: we have that shift of women from the workplace back 297 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: to the home. You have the baby booms start to happen, 298 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: and this resurgence of traditional domesticity. But I love that 299 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: observation though, about football being that modern day hunting, it 300 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: seems so true. Well, just thinking that women participation in 301 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: something is inauthentic, that women have a different version of it, 302 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: when really, I mean, during this time, women didn't stop 303 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,239 Speaker 1: writing in these magazines about their own hunting experiences. It's 304 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: just that, you know, men were sort of drowning them out. Yeah, 305 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: there was smally sites one one cover of Field and 306 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: Stream that features a woman in the foreground with a 307 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: gun and then a guy in the background, And apparently 308 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: it was pretty radical at the time to have a 309 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: woman on the cover of Field and Stream, even though 310 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: fifty years prior it wasn't so uncommon for something like 311 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: that to happen. But as those ideas of masculinity and 312 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: hunting become even more tightly bound when you move forward 313 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: and look at hunting rhetoric, not so much today. I 314 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: have a feeling the dial has probably shifted a little 315 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: little bit away from this as more women are starting 316 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: to participate in hunting. But according to a paper from 317 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: two thousand for called Animals, Women and Weapons blurred sexual 318 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: boundaries in the discourse of sport hunting that again looked 319 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: into advertising and articles and the just the language used 320 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: in hunting magazines mentions of women are almost exclusively sexualized, 321 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: where you have things like, you know, women being the prey, 322 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: men being predators, those kinds of uncomfortable dichotomys. Well, the 323 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: author the study authors literally bring up a an example 324 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: of this, this video called Hunting for Bamby from two 325 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: thousand three, which sounds absolutely horrifying. Um. Basically, viewers watch 326 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: naked women hunted down and shot with paintball guns. And 327 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: so the authors used that to illustrate just like the 328 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: actual literal sexualization of hunting and women and guns. Well, 329 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: and with our just everyday language too. If you think 330 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: about how we even just talk about eating and being, 331 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, on the hunt, on the prowl, on the chase, 332 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: looking for prey. And I remember, this is a total tangent, 333 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: I realized. But I remember in college, Caroline seeing a 334 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: girl wearing a T shirt from a Greek party, a 335 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: sorority party where the theme was the hunters and the hunting, 336 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: and it was men in camo and the women were 337 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: dressed like dear, I knew you were gonna say it. 338 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: I didn't want you to say it, but that's it 339 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: ties in though, and I will never forget that. And 340 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: she was just blively wearing this T shirt around, and 341 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: even when I was probably like nineteen and seeing that, 342 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: I was horrified. Yeah, you want to be like, don't 343 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: you know what you're wearing? But yeah, the study authors say, 344 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: um that things like that video um are resilient popular 345 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: culture images that celebrate and glorify weapons, killing, and violence, 346 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: laying the groundwork for the perpetuation of attitudes of domination, power, 347 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: and control over others. So if you had said that 348 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: so the girl on the shirt, she probably would have 349 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: been like, what are you saying to me? Well, and 350 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: this also isn't demonizing every man who enjoys hunting as 351 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: some kind of closet misogynists, But you have to look 352 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: at how the culture in the language around it has 353 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: developed up to this point where you do have those 354 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: problematic intersections of hunting and the sexual objectification of women, 355 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: where it's like whoa, no, we don't want that, which 356 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: is maybe one reason why theoretically, in a way, you 357 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: could say that it's great that more women are hunting, 358 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: because what you're seeing now, it seems like, is more 359 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: of a return to that turn of the century appreciation 360 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: and desire for women to be hunting. As a legitimizing fact. Yeah, yeah, no, 361 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: I could totally see that, and more more women are 362 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: getting into it for kind of all of the reasons 363 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: we talked about from the beginning of time. I mean, 364 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: there are women getting into it for the sport aspect, 365 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: to bond with other women, to get meat to keep 366 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: in the freezer for the rest of the year. I mean, 367 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: for every possible reason that we've already talked about exists 368 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: in the resurgence we're seeing now. Yeah, I mean, because 369 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: you could look at it in terms of traditional gender roles, 370 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: where women even today tend to be the ones who 371 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: are overseeing a households food choices, and so you have 372 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: some women being motivated to get closer to the sources 373 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: of their food. You have tied in with that desires 374 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: for sustainability and conservation because hunting licenses and a lot 375 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: of pro hunting groups are very pro conservation because without 376 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: the conservation of land and habitats, you can't have animals 377 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: to hunt um. And then you also just have the 378 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: heightened visibility of more women who are hunters. For instance, 379 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: the rise of women hunting since the mid two thousand's 380 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: has been referred to like it or not as the 381 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: Sarah Palin effect, because she was a prominent hunter. You know, 382 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: she was all about that and that was part of 383 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: her whole campaign pitch and still part of her personality 384 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: today where she is living in Alaska, told her gun 385 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: around and yeah, and I mean she she is cited 386 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: by by a lot of the women that we read 387 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: about in some of these articles as far as like 388 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: not because they like her politics or don't like her 389 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: politics or whatever, but just like, Okay, well, she's a 390 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: mom who's out there carrying a gun around in the woods, 391 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: killing animals for food, and so it's you know, it's like, oh, well, 392 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: I guess okay, people do that, women do that. She 393 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: can do that and still wear makeup and be feminine, 394 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: and so I'm not scared of it. Maybe I'll try it. Yeah, 395 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: And you have Brenda Valentine, who is considered the first 396 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: Lady of hunting, and she's also a spokesperson for the 397 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: National Old Turkey Federation. And then someone who's not so 398 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: much identified with hunting but more that homesteading and pioneering 399 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: resurgence that we touched on a little bit in our 400 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: Crafting episode a few weeks ago. The pioneer woman read Drummond, 401 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: who's very much about you know, getting back to the 402 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: land and cooking and working with meat, order with meat, meat, 403 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: maybe meat pies tying in all of our episodes together. 404 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: Um well, so let's look at the stats. It is 405 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: very interesting to see these sharp increase in women hunting. 406 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: Men do still account for the majority of the thirteen 407 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: point seven million US hunters, but as National Geographic reports, 408 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: women who are active hunters are on the rise. The 409 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: total number of women hunters has surged by from two 410 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: thousand and six ton after holding steady for a decade, 411 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: according to the Census, And that adds up to today 412 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: eleven percent of all US hunters being women, compared to 413 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: nine percent in two thousand six. And even if you 414 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: look at just target shooting, not just going out to 415 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: try to hunt down animals, female participation has grown forty 416 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: six point five percent from two thousand one to two 417 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: thousand ten according to the National Sporting Goods Association. And 418 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: if you look just at plain old gun ownership, of 419 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: women now own a gun, according to a Gallop Pole 420 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: from and if you are wondering, now, why aren't they 421 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: doing a podcast on gun ownership? We did do one 422 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: years ago, but maybe it's time for an update with 423 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: all of the conversations nationally that have been happening around 424 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: gun ownership. So side note there if you'd like to 425 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: hear it, Yeah, let us know. But we in the 426 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: US are certainly not the only ones seeing a rise 427 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: in women hunting. In Japan, for instance, they're the number 428 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: of hunters have like radically dropped by by about more 429 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: than half, and most of the hunters remaining are older men. 430 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: But Japanese women in their twenties and thirties are emerging 431 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: as one of the hunting populations whose numbers are growing 432 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: or staying the same. In Norway's on an increase of 433 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: six and the number of women hunters over the past 434 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: ten years, and Germany, of all the new hunters getting 435 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: their licenses in nineteen point eight percent were women, showing 436 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: a steady increase. So women are getting more into the 437 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: hunt around the world. It's not just in the United States, 438 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: and not surprisingly, as more women have shown more interest 439 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: in hunting, so have marketers looking to tap into this 440 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: not so new demographic who has all of a sudden 441 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: raising their hands saying that they would like to go 442 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: out and so you're now seeing more apparel, more guns 443 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: specifically designed for women, more bows designed for women, because 444 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: it's not just guns that people use in hunting, um 445 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: and more, just equipment in general designed for the female hunter. 446 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: And at first when this was happening, it was all 447 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: pink it and shrink it right. This was has reported 448 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: on in the Wall Street Journal a few years ago 449 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: when they first noticed this uptick in female hunters. It 450 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: was oh, the worst, the worst descriptions of products, which 451 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,239 Speaker 1: were pink guns, pink camo, pink this and that. Just 452 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: assuming that if, as a number of gun manufacturers did that, 453 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: if they sawed off about half an inch on the 454 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: stock of a gun to account for women's typically shorter 455 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: arm span, that that would that would be fun, especially 456 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: if they coated it in pink, than women would just 457 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: gobble it up. Well, it's good to have pink camo 458 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: and guns and stuff though, so you can blend in 459 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: naturally with the oh wait no, um yeah. So as 460 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: the marketers have followed the money, basically giant companies like 461 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: Bass presh shops have started to feature blogs on basically 462 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: how to buy clothes to go hunting if you're a woman. 463 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: So I mean there's this major push to make things 464 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: specifically for these types of consumers. Yeah, and they're even 465 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: companies like She Outdoor Apparel and others that have popped 466 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: up specifically to serve this need. And there there was 467 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: one gun advertisement that I just want to point out. 468 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: We found this over at Field and Stream and it 469 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: was a video that they made at a gun expo, 470 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: and it was this guy who was demonstrating something called 471 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: the Savage Lady Hunter Rifle, which, whether you're program or not, 472 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of an amazing name for a product. But 473 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: he was talking about how it was actually designed to 474 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: accommodate women's length of neck. It's a little bit lighter, 475 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: has a shorter barrel, all things which are are great 476 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: because they're clearly trying to keep the female consumer in 477 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: mind in a serious kind of way instead of just 478 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: pink and shrink it. But in his explanation for it, 479 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: he did raise my eyebrow when he suggested that whether 480 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: you're a woman or someone who's just unsure of his 481 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: or her sexuality, this would be a great choice. Some 482 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: trying to be funny. No, I don't think so. No. 483 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: I think he was sincere but interesting, But it gave 484 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: me pause, But hey, I remembered the remember the gun. 485 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: That's right, the Savage Lady Hunter rifle. Yes. And with 486 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: all of these new products being peddled to these supposedly 487 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: new female hunters on the scene, you're seeing a culture 488 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: that is reminiscent of that nineteenth century upper middle class 489 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: lady sportsman of the wild West going out to discover 490 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: herself in the woods. Yeah. The New York Times Style 491 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: magazine did this huge profile out on Georgia Pellegrini, She's 492 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: an investment banker turned chef turned outdoors woman extraordinaire um 493 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: talking about how these, like you said, upper middle class 494 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: white women were going out on this excursion. They they 495 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, specified that one of the women was going 496 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: through a divorce and so she was out there like 497 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: reclaiming her independence by shooting animals and stuff. And it 498 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: was noted that this woman was also wearing a necklace 499 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: that had a talisman on it made from the bone 500 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: and a raccoon penis. Yeah, and she was wearing it 501 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: from Ojo. I believe it was from Mojo. So there 502 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: was that and also notable too that this article was 503 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: published in their Style magazine, Right, absolutely, Yeah, they're called 504 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: Pellegrini's adventures are called Girl Hunter Adventure Getaways, which is 505 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: kind of a clunky name, but it's basically groups of 506 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: professional urban women who were eager to get out there 507 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: and hunt, gut, and eat their own wild game. And 508 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: they get to enjoy fly fishing, horseback riding, falconry, a 509 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: TV outings, pheasant hunts. And it is interesting to see 510 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: how Pellegrini has made an entire entrepreneurial business around the 511 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: fact that she is an especially attractive woman who really 512 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: likes to hunt, not and there is absolutely nothing wrong 513 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: with that, but it's clear in the way that things 514 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: are marketed that it is for this high end customer. 515 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: And she wrote that book, Girl Hunter, in two thousand twelve. 516 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: Her next book, which hasn't been released yet, is called 517 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: Modern Pioneering, and its slogan is this self sufficiency is 518 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: the ultimate girl power. So I feel like this, you know, 519 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: and again there's nothing wrong with it, but I feel 520 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: like this is kind of the equivalent of making science 521 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: kits for girls pink, you know, like taking something that 522 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: is traditionally a masculine interest and making it girly to 523 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: attract women. And I'm saying, you know what, if if 524 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: you're interested in doing that, that's totally cool, and if 525 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: that's what gets you out there, then fine. Um, everybody 526 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: has their own path to tread. But like we kind 527 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: of hinted at earlier talking about um women hunters in 528 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century being kind of a softening influence 529 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: on hunting and especially sports hunting, Pellegrini herself has been 530 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: called a softer version of the usual pro hunting voices 531 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: like Ted Nugent and Field and Stream in June referred 532 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: to her as polished and pretty, and they sounded very 533 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: grateful that she was on the scene as a pro 534 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: hunting woman. And it's not that her attractiveness in any 535 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: way should diminish from her authenticity, because she does talk 536 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: about how, as a chef by trade, the first time 537 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: she cooked an animal that she had killed, it was 538 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: this revolutionary experience for her, as she talks about of 539 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: really connecting with food in a whole new level. And 540 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: there are other people like Lily Rath Macaulu, who's author 541 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: of Call of the Mild Learning to Hunt My Own Dinner, 542 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: who talk about similar experiences of of really feeling this 543 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: new connection to nature to your food, to understanding how 544 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: things go from being in the wild to being on 545 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: your table and in your belly. And I definitely think 546 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: that's a that's an interesting new aspect of today's sport hunting, 547 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: but it's something that requires hefty disposable income a lot 548 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: of times to be able to do that. I mean, 549 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: there are probably plenty of women who are living in 550 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: and surviving more in a subsistence way off of hunting. 551 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: But I feel like a lot of what we're hearing 552 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: about now in these glossy profiles are almost a glamping 553 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: version of hunting. Glamping as in the glamour camping portmanteau, 554 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,959 Speaker 1: where you pay a lot of money to go hang 555 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: out sort of in nature and very nice accommodations. Like 556 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: I just stayed at a cabin with some friends and 557 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: took a whole bunch of champagne so we could drink 558 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of mimosas. That could be glamping because 559 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: the cabin was in the mountains. Yeah, but you weren't 560 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: exactly roughing it now roughing it yeah. But there are 561 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: groups like the Wyoming Women's Foundation, as reported on by NPR, 562 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: who put on the Women's antelope hunt, which they say 563 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: is all about teaching self sufficiency and economic independence, and 564 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: the women take meat home as a part of that. Yeah, 565 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: and many state departments of natural resources are getting in 566 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: on this. They've begun testing becoming an outdoors woman or 567 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: bow And as National Geographic points out reporting on this 568 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: rise in women hunters, they talked to uh Lily mccalu, 569 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: who Kristin mentioned a second ago, and she says that 570 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: this is kind of part of the local war movement, 571 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to eat locally, buy from local farmers, 572 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And she was saying that hunting 573 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: offers an alternative to the grocery store and lets women 574 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: provide truly free range and organic meat for their families 575 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: while also helping create a more sustainable food system. So, 576 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're looking at being like a true 577 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: local war, she argues, like, you know, hunting the animals 578 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: you put in your mouth as part of that. Well, 579 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: but that's also if you're probably living in an area 580 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: that would support that. Right, if you're living in a 581 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: superurban space, you shouldn't go out in your backyard with 582 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: the gun now, because you might just shoot raccoons or 583 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: rats or something that wouldn't be a good idea and 584 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: it's probably illegal. Um, But I also see this. The 585 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: more I read about it and think about this resurgence 586 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: and hunting among women, I feel like it ties in 587 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: to this larger conversation that we've been having for a 588 00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: year now actually about new domesticity and the rise and 589 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: handmade and crafting in this just basic interest in a 590 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 1: slower way of living and paying more attention to where 591 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: things are sourced from and locality and all of those 592 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: things also though, do tie again into class. And that 593 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: was one thing that I didn't find a lot of 594 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: information about that I was disappointed to not see more on, 595 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: which is the socioeconomics of sport hunting, because a lot 596 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: of these stories paint the rise of women and hunting 597 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: as this really cool thing because we're you know, transgressing 598 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: those gender norms and whatnot. But it's like if you can, 599 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: if you have the money and the time and the 600 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: means to do so, right I kind of, I mean, yeah, 601 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: you're right. While we didn't find anything specifically talking about 602 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: that issue, I feel like there's kind of an unspoken 603 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: hierarchy as far as subsistence hunters kind of being on 604 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: the bottom, like people who hunt for food and to 605 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, feed their families. They're kind of on the bottom, 606 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: with like Safari hunters being up here like way and 607 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: above anyone else, people who just want to have like 608 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: a giraffe head on their wall or something like that. Right, 609 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 1: you have this gorgeous photo essay on these women out 610 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: at Georgia Pellagreni's Girl Hunter Adventure Getaways. And I want 611 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: to read the story about maybe women who are in 612 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: Appalachia who might still be hunting, or women in rural Alaska, 613 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: or women around the world who are not hunting for 614 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: the self fulfillment of it, but more for the survivability. 615 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: And I wonder why we don't hear at least more 616 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: of that side of the coin um. But speaking though globally, 617 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned those statistics from Japan, Germany, Norway of how 618 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: hunting is also on the rise for women there, and 619 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: the reasons for the women's site for being more in 620 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: used in hunting are similar to what we see in 621 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: the United States, where in Japan um part of the 622 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: attraction is being able to come home with delicious food. 623 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: There's one blog in Japan of of women hunters and 624 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: I think their slogan is something as simple as shoot 625 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: and eat. It's like that panda joke. Never mind eats, 626 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: shoots and leaves that grandma book. It's a handy grandma book. 627 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: I know. Well. Yeah, Germany the foremost quoted answers to 628 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: their survey about why you hunt as a woman, enjoying 629 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: being in nature, applying conservation, the joy of hunting, and 630 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: dog training. Actually getting out there yeah with like with 631 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: a cute puppic and now there with your pup pup um. Yeah. 632 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: And then in Norway, where I did not realize how 633 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: popular hunting is in Scandinavia but totally makes sense. Um, 634 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: But there has been a specific recruitment effort to attract 635 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: more women to hunting there, as we're starting to see 636 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: more in the United States as well, with those state 637 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: departments of Natural Resources offering those outdoor or as women workshops. 638 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: But in Norway you have groups like the Norwegian Association 639 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: of Hunters and Anglers who are focusing on recruiting women 640 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: to hunting and fishing. Yeah. Well have you ever have 641 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: you ever hunted, or thought about hunting or wanted to hunt? 642 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: I have never shot more than a BB gun. Um, 643 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,879 Speaker 1: largely because I fear the kick back and I am 644 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: not a fan of loud noises. I'm not squeamish in 645 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: the kitchen around meat at all, but going out and 646 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: killing something and bringing it back holds no appeal to me. 647 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: But at the same time, though I enjoy fishing, I 648 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: haven't done a ton of fishing, but I would much 649 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: rather go fishing than go hunting. Yeah. Although I enjoy nature, 650 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: I'm not anti nature. Yeah. It's it was interesting reading 651 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: the comments under a lot of these stories and studies 652 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: online because a lot of people argue that if you're 653 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: going to be a meat eater, what better way to 654 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: kind of get in touch with your own self and 655 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 1: the things that you're putting into your body than to 656 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: go out and hunt it and be face to face 657 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: with that little face that you're then going to put 658 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: on a plate. And and I I see that argument. 659 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: I myself, I'm not really interested in hunting. Um. I had, 660 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: like I was thinking about this earlier. My dad's best 661 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: friend is a huge hunter, or was a huge hunter, 662 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: and we would go over to his house and he 663 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: had this deer head mounted on the wall that I 664 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: named Bamby, and I would ask to go see Bamby 665 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: and then I would pet it. I would pet the 666 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: deer head. And now as an adult, I think back 667 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,919 Speaker 1: on that and I'm like, that's kind of morbid and weird. Yeah, 668 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: there is that just basic morbid fact of it. And 669 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a lot of people listening to 670 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: who simply disagree with hunting, not so much from a 671 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: gender perspective, but just on the basis of animal rights, ethics, 672 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: the whole issues with you, the whole issue tying in 673 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: with gun ownership and questions around what what the limits 674 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: should be for that. So it's like you start talking 675 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: about hunting and you're talking about so many things. Yeah, 676 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: I mean I think that it's it's hard to have 677 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: a discussion about hunting. Um, well, it's easy in the 678 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: podcast studio because we don't have commenters right now, But 679 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to have a story post about hunting, for instance, 680 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: where people don't on some side or another feel very 681 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: attacked about their their views. Whether you're hunting for subsistence, 682 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: whether you think hunting is terrible, whether you're a vegetarian 683 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,720 Speaker 1: or a carnivore, whatever, there's a lot of political aspects 684 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,240 Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, but if you look at it through 685 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: a purely gendered lens, and thinking about that quote at 686 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: the top of the podcast from that feminist scholars saying 687 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: that hunting might be the most masculine cultural pursuit, then 688 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: I think you really get into some some interesting meat, 689 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: horrible on sorry of our concepts of what masculinity really is, femininity, 690 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 1: gender roles, domesticity, violence, all of these different things tied 691 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: up with it. So with that, let's stop talking about 692 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: hunting and here from hunters out there or people who 693 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: are completely opposed to hunting, Caroline, Like you said a 694 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: lot of times, this is an issue where you strongly 695 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: support or you strongly opposed. We want to hear from 696 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: all of you about that. So Mom stuff at Discovery 697 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your letters, or 698 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: you can also find us at stuff Mom Never told 699 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: You dot com with all of the links to all 700 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: of our social media. So yep, we are live, folks. 701 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: Go check it out. And in the meantime, we're gonna 702 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: take a quick break and come right back with some 703 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: of your letters. And now back to our letters. Well, Caroline, 704 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from our episode on Pie 705 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: that's p I E. Not p I This is from Victoria, 706 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: who writes, I just finished listening to your pie episode, 707 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: which came with perfect timing as I wrapped my holiday 708 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 1: penia Colada nougat and bacon caramels. Wow. As a trained 709 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: pastry chef, I have the skill to make both cakes 710 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: and pies, but when it comes to personal preference, I 711 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: prefer eating pies and then making and decorating of cakes. 712 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: Pies are delicious in their construction takes a skill that 713 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: is often not recognized. As you said, Ltte, work is tricky, 714 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: as is a texture of the crust and even making 715 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: the pie border appealing without too thick of a dope. 716 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: Even after all of this, the crowd reaction to a 717 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: pie is most often less than that of a simple cake. 718 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: Regarding the view of pie making being for women, it 719 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 1: certainly is not. I chose to attend culinary school and 720 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: worked hard to become the best in my class, and 721 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: when I try and tweak a recipe ten times, I'm 722 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: driven by my passion, but not my need to be 723 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: a good housewife. I take issue and people assume that 724 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: I do what I do to please anyone but myself 725 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: and those eating my creation. Feminism to me means choice, 726 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: and I choose to spend my days in the kitchen 727 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: instead of fighting for a quote unquote dream job and 728 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 1: making lots of money. Sometimes it feels like feminism means 729 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: acting like men, which doesn't sit well with me. Beyond that, 730 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: anyone can make a pie and the Internet is full 731 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: of how twos and helpful resources. I also recommend the 732 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: book The Science of Baking for anyone interested in what 733 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: their ingredients are doing together and why it's fascinating. Well, 734 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: thanks Victoria, and those Pina Colata, Newgatt and big at 735 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: caramels sound incredible. We will gladly accept them. Yeah, if 736 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: you want to mail to us, sure, um. I have 737 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: a letter here from Phoenix with the subject line Asians 738 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: have hairy issues too. Uh. She's responding to our episode 739 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,320 Speaker 1: Beauty Parlors versus Barbershops, and she writes as a Chinese 740 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: Canadian female who is obsessed with getting a good haircut. 741 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: I can add another dimension of complexity to the discussion. 742 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: I personally choose salons based on the kind of hairstyle 743 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 1: I actually want and the kind of stylist I would 744 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: trust my hair with. Growing up, I've had many disaster 745 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: stories going to a regular quote unquote white salon where 746 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: the stylist just didn't know how to cut my Asian hair, 747 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: which is thin, soft and straight. They tend to give 748 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: me more blunt cuts that suit wavy texture but look 749 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: terrible with my limb hair. And they also have never 750 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,359 Speaker 1: been able to color my dark hair correctly. Nowadays, many 751 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: Japanese hair salons have popped up in Vancouver, so I 752 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 1: don't have that issue anymore. Not to cast more stereotypes, 753 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: but Japanese mail stylists are simply the best, at least 754 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 1: with my hair type. So I wonder if the segregation 755 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: we still observe is not partly due to people simply 756 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: wanting to take their car to the right shop. I 757 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: would definitely trust my civic with a Honda dealer rather 758 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: than a GM shop. And you raise a good point, Phoenix, 759 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 1: But I think one of the issues that we raised 760 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:47,240 Speaker 1: is people at salon, certain salons and barbershops simply saying no. 761 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,360 Speaker 1: But we do appreciate your story and I'm glad you 762 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: did find a salon to treat your hair. Rat So 763 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: thank you for writing in Yes, and thanks to everyone 764 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: who's written in mom stuff at Discovery dot Com is 765 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: our email address, and Hey, if you want to find 766 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: your one stop shop for all things stuff mom Never 767 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: told you, including podcasts, videos, blog posts, and all of 768 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: our myriad social media outlets, there's one place to go now, 769 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: and it's stuff Mom Never told You dot com. For 770 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,240 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, How stuff 771 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:34,240 Speaker 1: works dot com. Audible dot com is the leading provider 772 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,720 Speaker 1: of downloadable digital audio books and spoken word entertainment. Audible 773 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: has over one hundred thousand titles to choose from to 774 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 1: be downloaded to your iPod or MP three player. Go 775 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: to audible podcast dot com slash stuff mom to get 776 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: a free audio book download of your choice when you 777 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: sign up today. That's Audible podcast dot com slash stuff 778 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 1: mom