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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's The Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. All Right, you guys, it

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Speaker 1: is officially the month of Love well in the world

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Speaker 1: and also on the v podcast, So we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: covering all topics of love this month. Um. I think

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Speaker 1: love is something that we talk about a lot. It

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Speaker 1: is something we all want, We all want connection. But

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Speaker 1: I do believe that there is another kind of love

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Speaker 1: that can happen and what do we happen or what

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Speaker 1: happens in a relationship when the love and connection isn't

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Speaker 1: there and it actually becomes an addiction. So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to take a different, a different look at love today

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Speaker 1: because I have found that it is prevalent in our

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Speaker 1: society and it's something that is starting to be talked about,

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Speaker 1: but maybe it's just just being dabbled in right now.

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Speaker 1: So Kelly McDaniel is here to help us understand the

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Speaker 1: dynamics of an addictive relationship, what that looks like, the

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Speaker 1: root causes, and how to heal them. Kelly is a

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Speaker 1: license for professional counselor. She's also an author of two

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Speaker 1: books that I've just finished reading that are amazing Mother

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Speaker 1: Hunger and Ready to Heal, and she specializes in treating

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Speaker 1: women and helping women who have been in destructive relationships.

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Speaker 1: Hi Kelly, Hi Kelly, I know, Hi Kelly, Hi Kelly,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. We were just

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Speaker 1: saying that you and I have basically emailed almost over

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Speaker 1: a year now about doing this podcast, and we're finally here.

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Speaker 1: We're finally here. I think that timing is always right

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Speaker 1: where it needs to be. I agree. I was telling

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Speaker 1: you that um I initially found you through our mutual

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Speaker 1: friend Jodie White. She has an amazing podcast about love,

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Speaker 1: addiction and your work into addictive relationships. This Mother Hunger

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Speaker 1: piece has been so helpful to me on my journey

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Speaker 1: of understanding why I get in these relationships that I

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Speaker 1: keep getting in and why I get stuck I can't

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Speaker 1: really seem to get out. That is sort of a

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Speaker 1: really big hook for me, and I mentioned when I

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Speaker 1: was just doing this intro about kind of the way

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Speaker 1: that our society describes or pitches or sets up relationships

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Speaker 1: even from the age of I mean a really young age.

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Speaker 1: Especially yeah too, she's making the fingers too for young women,

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Speaker 1: and so I have this really big calling in me

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Speaker 1: because I think it's just ingrained us from such a

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Speaker 1: young age, and I want to help people understand that

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Speaker 1: what is being pitched to us is not necessarily true

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Speaker 1: intimacy and connection that we're actually looking for in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: So can you start by just explaining what is an

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Speaker 1: addictive relationship? Sure? Um, but to also just piggyback on

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, You've done a beautiful job of how

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Speaker 1: the love that's marketed to us, and it is marketing,

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Speaker 1: isn't love at all. It's a fantasy. And especially for

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Speaker 1: um what I have found women who are in regions

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Speaker 1: in the Southeast, Um, this gets pitched even more strongly

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Speaker 1: than say other parts of the country that um aren't

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Speaker 1: necessarily having their children sit in front of the TV

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Speaker 1: and watch a fairy tale at age two or three

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Speaker 1: years old. That's what love is marketed as, right, that

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Speaker 1: that we will find the answer, We will find that

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Speaker 1: person that's going to fill the hole in our heart.

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Speaker 1: Nobody asks why do you have a hole in your

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Speaker 1: heart in the first place. It's almost just kind of

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Speaker 1: a given that we do. Yeah. I never thought it

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Speaker 1: would the wait for Prince Charming or something or someone

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Speaker 1: like Prince Charming to make it all go away, and

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Speaker 1: that is what love It's marketed us, and that is

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Speaker 1: a fantasy. It's a beautiful fantasy, it's lovely fantasy. And

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Speaker 1: as little girls, it's a great way to kind of

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Speaker 1: maybe escape the reality of what might be happening at

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Speaker 1: home or at school is to think about fairy tales

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Speaker 1: and that maybe that could be us. So the reason

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Speaker 1: I wrote my first book, Ready to Heal, is because, well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, there wasn't a lot of literature written

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Speaker 1: for women who deal with addictive relationships out there. There

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Speaker 1: was some books written for men. And then we had

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Speaker 1: Pia Melodies book Facing Love Addiction, which was great, But

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Speaker 1: in her book there was no mention of the cultural peace.

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Speaker 1: It was all about the family, right, and the family

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Speaker 1: is just a part of a culture. So what happened

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Speaker 1: our families is usually what we've learned by breathing in

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Speaker 1: the culture that we live in. So in Ready to Heal,

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Speaker 1: I really looked and dissected fairy tales. I looked at

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Speaker 1: the messages that women learn about our bodies and sexuality,

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Speaker 1: like I have to be good for someone to love me.

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Speaker 1: But if I'm a good girl, then I better not

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Speaker 1: be sexual. But if I'm not sexual, then I won't

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Speaker 1: have anyone desiring me. But if I'm sexual and bad,

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Speaker 1: those are the four core beliefs I came up with

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Speaker 1: and ready to heal. It is from those four beliefs

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Speaker 1: that love becomes addictive because if you think about those beliefs,

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Speaker 1: I to be good for someone to love me, but

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Speaker 1: I've got to be sexual to be desirable. But if

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Speaker 1: I'm sexual and bad, that's a double bind, which means

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Speaker 1: how do you win? Don't win? You don't. So there's

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Speaker 1: the setup right there for luve to. The only way

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have it is in secret with someone that

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Speaker 1: maybe you either feel one up or you feel one

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Speaker 1: down because you can't really fully embrace sexuality and intimacy

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Speaker 1: when those are the beliefs. Mm hmm, well what I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm you're mentioning the fairy tales, and I think that

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Speaker 1: all of us have watched a Disney movie a time

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Speaker 1: or two, and it is true. It's like rapunzels up

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Speaker 1: in the tower and the guy comes and rescues are

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Speaker 1: or snow white or I can't sleeping beauty. I can't

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Speaker 1: even remember. Now, maybe I've blocked them out. But it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the prince comes and wakes her up with

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Speaker 1: a kiss, and so we're all kind of waiting for

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Speaker 1: this white night to come save us. And I think

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Speaker 1: there's a whole another beast that gets created with that

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Speaker 1: for men of of their you know, the fantasy that

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Speaker 1: they get they get put into, and then what that

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Speaker 1: means for them in relationships. But it really is so unrealistic.

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Speaker 1: And Jody and I talked about this a lot on

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Speaker 1: UM when she was on the podcast talking about love addiction.

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Speaker 1: But I hate the word love addiction because I think

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Speaker 1: that it makes it um well, it does become insane.

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Speaker 1: But it is such this like insidious thing that I'm

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Speaker 1: not even sure we understand we're doing. Or a lot

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Speaker 1: of people might even look and be like, oh, they're

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Speaker 1: just so in love because look at that intensity between them,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so when I asked you what is

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Speaker 1: an addictive relationship? I think that that's a really big piece.

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Speaker 1: It's it's um this piece that you might from the

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Speaker 1: outside look at this relationship and think, oh, wow, they're

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Speaker 1: so in love, or in the movies, you see you

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Speaker 1: know what, I gotta run to the airport and I've

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Speaker 1: got to just explode and tell them like we just

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Speaker 1: broke up, but no, no, wait, you complete me and

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Speaker 1: all of those kind of mentalities, and that is not

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Speaker 1: real love, right, So can you talk us through a

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Speaker 1: little bit of maybe some of the dynamics that we

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Speaker 1: would find in an addictive relationship that are just so

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Speaker 1: accepted by our society. Sure, I'd be happy to um.

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Speaker 1: When we think about what makes something an addiction, whether

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Speaker 1: it's love, whether it's food, whether it's shopping, whether it's gambling,

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Speaker 1: whether it's alcohol, it starts out feeling pretty good. It

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Speaker 1: starts out with a feeling of energy, increased vitality, a

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Speaker 1: new sense of loving life because we have finally found

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Speaker 1: something that medicates some kind of pain, that whole inside

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Speaker 1: I was talking about. So when we find something that

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Speaker 1: makes that whole inside temporarily go away or feel there,

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Speaker 1: we feel a little bit high. That's how we feel

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Speaker 1: when we first fall in love. We're wired that way,

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Speaker 1: we're designed that way. So the beginning of any addiction,

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Speaker 1: and we're not necessarily going to know it's an addiction

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Speaker 1: because we just feel better. So we don't necessarily know

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Speaker 1: it until some time goes by and we start having consequences.

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Speaker 1: We start maybe feeling a little depressed, Maybe we start

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Speaker 1: feeling a little bit ashamed, like we've got to hide

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Speaker 1: some of our behavior. Either I'll go with love addiction,

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Speaker 1: we keep breaking up with the same partner. Our friends

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Speaker 1: are there for us, they support us. Then we go

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Speaker 1: back to that partner and after a few times like that,

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Speaker 1: our friends start getting really tired of us and we

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Speaker 1: lose our friends. Or in the case of a love addiction,

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Speaker 1: we might sacrifice some of our own values for this

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Speaker 1: relationship and we end up harming our body or we

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Speaker 1: harm our own children. UM. Generally, the shame that comes

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Speaker 1: with an addictive relationship takes a little bit of time

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Speaker 1: to set in, but we always know it's there. That

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Speaker 1: after we have sex with this person, even we feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit rather than oh, I'm so proud of myself,

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Speaker 1: we feel a little bit dirty. We might even have

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Speaker 1: enjoyed it, but we still feel a little guilty. So

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Speaker 1: that's another sign. There are consequences that come with addiction, right,

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Speaker 1: whether it's alcohol, food, That can include financial problems. Um,

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Speaker 1: we might give up careers. We might give um someone

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Speaker 1: a lot of money because we think they really need it,

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Speaker 1: and we're rescuing them, and then we lose, we lose out. Um.

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Speaker 1: So an addictive relationship starts to pull us down. We

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Speaker 1: start to lose our glow, that initial high, the initial

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Speaker 1: feeling of I've found something really great starts to erode,

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Speaker 1: and it takes a different amount of time for each

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Speaker 1: person depending on the level of tolerance for pain. Um.

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Speaker 1: But the only thing that really motivates us usually to

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Speaker 1: get better is pain. So some addictive relationships can get

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Speaker 1: really really ugly before we're ready to question what am

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Speaker 1: I doing? Yeah, um, I recently you know, as I've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and you guys know this, the listeners who follow the

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Speaker 1: Velvet Sedge podcast, I talk a lot about this because

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Speaker 1: it's not really something that anyone wants to admit, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it's that thing that's uh. I mean, I would

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Speaker 1: say I've had I've carried a lot of shame around it.

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Speaker 1: But I have been given this platform and I do

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Speaker 1: believe that, like I said, this is so much more

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Speaker 1: prevalent in our society, and so if I need to

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Speaker 1: tell my story to be able to help other people

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Speaker 1: even name this in their own life or understand it,

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Speaker 1: then I'm happy to do that, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: it for me, UM, has looked like self abandonment. And

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Speaker 1: so you know it'll be slow, and it's it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily like you said, it's something that there are parts

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Speaker 1: of it that are bringing me so much joy, or

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Speaker 1: else I wouldn't be doing it right, Like there are

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Speaker 1: these things and and love even can be there, And um,

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Speaker 1: I think that that's what makes so confusing. But what

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Speaker 1: I've found for me is when I cannot stay authentically

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Speaker 1: in my own self or the things in my life,

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Speaker 1: like my job, even keeping up with my house, like

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Speaker 1: small things like that, just like messiness and chaos have

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Speaker 1: been a lot of the things that I really identify

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Speaker 1: as me operating from that addictive place or in a

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Speaker 1: relationship that is an addictive dynamic. And Um, again, like

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Speaker 1: I said, I don't think anyone really wants to get there.

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Speaker 1: But the big part of it for me has been

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Speaker 1: abandoning myself and what I'm realizing in my work and

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Speaker 1: through a lot of your books and the things that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned in the book, a lot of that started

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Speaker 1: so much younger than I can even identify. And so

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Speaker 1: can you talk through maybe some people or situations or

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Speaker 1: dynamics that would make a person vulnerable to this type

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Speaker 1: of relationship. I'd be happy to but before I do that,

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Speaker 1: I just want to I just really appreciate the way

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Speaker 1: you talked about the self abandonment, the lack of self care,

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Speaker 1: because you talked about it in a way that I

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Speaker 1: think is so um, well, we don't we don't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of representation, right. So you've done a beautiful job.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the first signs that we're

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Speaker 1: losing ourselves is when are our our house gets missy. Yes,

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Speaker 1: this happens to me every time. That's like the number

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Speaker 1: one thing. I started to be like, whoa, it is

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Speaker 1: a ship show in here, right, And so it almost

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Speaker 1: it's so insidious that you don't realize it until it's

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Speaker 1: like wow. Because what I have found from decades of

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Speaker 1: working with women is that where we live, whether it's

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Speaker 1: an apartment at home, it doesn't matter, where we live

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Speaker 1: is an extension of our actual body. For men, but

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Speaker 1: for women, we might neglect our body and not notice

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Speaker 1: it as quickly as if we neglect our homes. So

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Speaker 1: it's one of the first beautiful signs of I think

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Speaker 1: I'm losing something here Apart but so many of us

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Speaker 1: come into an addictive relationship. And here's the double bind again.

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Speaker 1: We don't have much of a self in the first place,

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Speaker 1: so of course we don't know we're losing ourselves. Women

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Speaker 1: find a self in a relationship, not by ourselves or

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Speaker 1: who we are in a relationship. So if we're in

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Speaker 1: a relationship with a romantic partner, we're going to be

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Speaker 1: learning about who we are. And so that's why there

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Speaker 1: are some good things that we've got to learn. The

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Speaker 1: other stuff too. So to answer your question, though, is

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Speaker 1: since we do form our identity in relationship, the very

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Speaker 1: first relationship we have each of us, our first love

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Speaker 1: is our biological mother, whether she raises us or not.

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Speaker 1: Our first relationship is her body in utero, and however

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Speaker 1: much time we have with her, that's where love and

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Speaker 1: what it feels like first imprints. And the reason I

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Speaker 1: wrote mother hunger is because what I've learned is that

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Speaker 1: mother hunger, which is a hunger for maternal nurturings or

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Speaker 1: maternal protection, or later some maternal guidance if any of

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Speaker 1: those pieces are compromised, which in patriarchy most of them are,

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Speaker 1: and through no fault of our mothers, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: have it either. We have that whole. We have a whole,

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Speaker 1: We have a yearning, we have a need that is

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Speaker 1: because we're a mammal, not because we're broken. We have

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Speaker 1: a need for those those elements to be met. And

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Speaker 1: when they're not, we're going to search for them in

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Speaker 1: other relationships. And if other relationships let us down over

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Speaker 1: and over and over, we'll find them in food. We'll

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Speaker 1: find nurturing. Through food, we'll find excitement or protection or

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Speaker 1: safety in other ways. I find lots of women who

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Speaker 1: have created wonderful careers. They found an amazing way to

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Speaker 1: make a lot of money and have a beautiful, safe

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Speaker 1: place around them, but the whole is still there, and

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Speaker 1: there's not a relational element right So, and it's so baffling.

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Speaker 1: How can I be so I don't know, productive on

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Speaker 1: one hand, but not have the love of my life?

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Speaker 1: Mm hm. I find it so interesting because why is

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Speaker 1: there so much talk about or I'm honestly, your work

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Speaker 1: is the first work that I've ever read that even

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Speaker 1: mentions this mother hunger and this nurturance piece. And I

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Speaker 1: think that a very common thing when someone is repeating

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Speaker 1: a bad relationship dynamic, especially if you're a heterosexual woman

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Speaker 1: is to be like, oh, she's got daddy issues, and

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Speaker 1: that's so fascinating. So how did you even come across

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Speaker 1: this understanding with the the need for the nurturance piece,

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Speaker 1: the nourishment that comes from such a I mean the

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Speaker 1: day that we're born, even in your utero. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: how did you even come up with this? Well, Kelly,

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Speaker 1: it's taken thirty years. Never know, You're right, nobody else had,

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Speaker 1: nobody else outlined it for me? You know. I think

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Speaker 1: it started because as a young woman in college, I

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Speaker 1: ended up landing in a women's studies course purely by accident,

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Speaker 1: and started learning about culture and it just blew my mind,

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Speaker 1: blew my mind. So then I started reading authors that

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Speaker 1: deconstructed the institution of motherhood and I thought, what motherhood

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Speaker 1: as an institution? Yes, it's been constructed. So there's lots

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Speaker 1: of theory that I learned. And then when I went

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Speaker 1: back to school later to be a therapist, there was nothing.

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Speaker 1: No one was talking about patriarchy and the systemic cultural

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Speaker 1: and women. Um So when I started, I thought I

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Speaker 1: was gonna work with eating disorders. I just thought that's

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Speaker 1: what I would do. That's there was a big need.

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Speaker 1: But as I was working with women that had food issues,

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Speaker 1: every single woman had a love addiction, or sexual and orexia,

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Speaker 1: or a sex and love mix of addiction. And I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is what I need to be doing. And as

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Speaker 1: I was doing it, every woman what she was really

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Speaker 1: longing for from her partner. The more I would ask

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Speaker 1: her and take notes. It was always something that we

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Speaker 1: needed from our mother. So then I started doing research again. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so this book Mother Hunger came from Ready to Heal,

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Speaker 1: the first book, but also came from them the work

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Speaker 1: clinical work after that, and the fact that when when

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Speaker 1: I knew it was time to write this book, which

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Speaker 1: I fought, I didn't want to do it. Um. I

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Speaker 1: had to operationalize what does a mother do? So I

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Speaker 1: looked it up in the dictionary? And you know what

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Speaker 1: the dictionary says, Kelly, you might read the book. It

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Speaker 1: just blew my mind because I needed to. I knew

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Speaker 1: I was doing the work I was treating mother hunger,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't know how to explain what I was

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Speaker 1: doing to write a book or to train another therapists, right,

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Speaker 1: So I go to look it up. In the definition

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Speaker 1: of mother is to care for someone as a mother

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Speaker 1: would that doesn't even say any what if that mean

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Speaker 1: means nothing, and it just it really speaks to the

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Speaker 1: vacuum that when a mother comes to motherhood, she's going

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Speaker 1: to mother the way she was mothered. And there's no

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Speaker 1: guidance for this if the mother and the grandmother didn't

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Speaker 1: know how to do it. And so I did have

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Speaker 1: to operationalize it. And what I came up with is

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Speaker 1: that mother's first nurture, because nurture involves feeding and holding

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Speaker 1: and touching and cleaning and helping a little one's sleep,

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Speaker 1: and then protection is essential. If little ones an't protected,

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Speaker 1: then they're vulnerable to other people that might hurt them mum.

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Speaker 1: And ultimately guidance and guidance is that elusive piece. Whereas daughters,

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Speaker 1: we grow up and we just hope that we can

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Speaker 1: look to our mother for inspiration, that we admire her right,

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Speaker 1: but not all mothers that got to really develop themselves.

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Speaker 1: So lots of us come too, had lessons and we

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Speaker 1: become teenagers and we can't really look to our mother

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Speaker 1: because either we might be a little embarrassed or we

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Speaker 1: already know we wanted, We already know where more grown

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Speaker 1: up than she is maybe right. So these pieces are

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Speaker 1: all part of mother hunger in different shapes and forms,

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Speaker 1: and that's why it needed a whole book, because no

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Speaker 1: one's mother hunger is the same. It's related to what

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Speaker 1: the relationship with your mother was like. Well, as you

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Speaker 1: were talking, I was thinking too about you know, in

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Speaker 1: the day that I was born. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: my mom was twenty four when she had me, And

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Speaker 1: I think about that now as a thirty nine year

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Speaker 1: old and I'm like, oh my god, if I had

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Speaker 1: had a kid at twenty four, like I would have

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Speaker 1: absolutely no idea what to do. I feel like, maybe

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Speaker 1: just now I'm coming into terms with, um, how to

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Speaker 1: give love to someone else in a in a truly

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Speaker 1: intimate way, you know, and I'm thirty nine, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: biologically it's like that doesn't really line up. And so

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Speaker 1: it's crazy to think about again the cultural dynamic there

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Speaker 1: of having a child so young and genuinely doing the

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Speaker 1: best you can with the tools that you were given

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Speaker 1: by your parents and your grandparents and all of that,

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Speaker 1: and um, maybe doing really great at X amount of things,

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Speaker 1: but you miss maybe one or two, and then if

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Speaker 1: it's not addressed later, it turns into this kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So is there a way that, um, we as a

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Speaker 1: society could maybe kind of start something new in a

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Speaker 1: mindset right now of even like, hey, okay, we're identifying

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Speaker 1: these as issues and I want to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about what the mother hunger piece looks like.

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Speaker 1: But is there just like a small thing that we

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Speaker 1: could even start with of that's like the number one

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Speaker 1: most important thing to give kids? Because I know you

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Speaker 1: mentioned this a lot in your book even about like

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Speaker 1: the sleep training thing and that being a huge you know,

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Speaker 1: like your kid's gonna behave well, and you're like, no,

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Speaker 1: that is actually the worst thing you could ever do

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Speaker 1: for your child. So what are the things that we're

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Speaker 1: doing like that that are just the overriding pieces that

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Speaker 1: lead to this mother hunger thing? Yeah, Kelly, I'm so

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Speaker 1: glad you're bringing this up, and I um because this

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Speaker 1: is such a bigger issue than just what we learned

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Speaker 1: from my mother's and grandmothers. Because truthfully, pediatricians O b G.

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Speaker 1: My inn's and doctors are giving women and mothers very

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Speaker 1: unfortunate misguidance. So back in the nineteen twenties nineteen forties,

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Speaker 1: UM John Watson who was kind of one of the

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Speaker 1: pop psychologists at the time. He was a behaviorist and

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Speaker 1: he believed that you could train a child like you

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Speaker 1: train a dog. Unfortunately, his theories have influenced medicine, psychology,

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Speaker 1: and parenting since the nineteen twenties. Sleep training is what

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Speaker 1: you could do for a dog. When we do this

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Speaker 1: to a baby, we create a devastating bind because an

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Speaker 1: infant left alone to self soothe is in terror. Babies

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Speaker 1: can't self south. That is an adult skill that takes

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Speaker 1: mindfulness and security. Babies are not born able to self soothe.

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Speaker 1: They need their mother. They need a caregiver that they

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Speaker 1: trust and rely on to be there and then they

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Speaker 1: can learn what it is to be safe. They won't

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Speaker 1: know this on their own. They're not supposed to know

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Speaker 1: this on their own. Most adults I know don't know

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Speaker 1: how to self suit. So it's crazy that adults want

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Speaker 1: to go sleep with someone. But we're gonna leave a

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Speaker 1: baby and alone in a carib and let her cry

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Speaker 1: it out. It's torture for an infant. I'm sorry about

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Speaker 1: the Bee's okay um, And I think that part of

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Speaker 1: my mission in writing this book is that I like

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, how do we educate Where we're going

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Speaker 1: to have this book needs to be in health class

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Speaker 1: this but neath be in pediatrician offices. This book needs

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Speaker 1: to be in the O b g L an office

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00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: for pre for prenatal planning. Women need to know this

401
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Speaker 1: when they're thinking of children. So, um, it's not all

402
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Speaker 1: about what our mothers did or our grandmothers did, because

403
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Speaker 1: our culture will undermine even maternal instinct. Mothers talk to

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Speaker 1: me about how they just cried outside their baby's crib,

405
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Speaker 1: but their doctors said, don't go in and pick her up.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I've seen friends do that because that's

407
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Speaker 1: what they're being told by their doctor is the way

408
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Speaker 1: to get them to sleep through the night. In the book,

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Speaker 1: you say specifically a baby is not made to sleep

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Speaker 1: through at night. I mean, I think it's really hard

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Speaker 1: on you know, mothers, and I would imagine mostly the women. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's probably not a fair statement, but parents in general.

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Speaker 1: I think with young children or infants, that's a really

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Speaker 1: hard thing. But and that's like the accomplishment when you

415
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Speaker 1: get there, Oh my god, they're sleeping through the night,

416
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Speaker 1: and you're like, no, a baby sleeps in a cycle

417
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Speaker 1: and then they eat, and then they poop and then whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know, that is actually humanly how they are made.

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Speaker 1: And so for us to sit here and really kind

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Speaker 1: of go against that and this is what we're being

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Speaker 1: taught by doctors is actually such a disservice to them emotionally,

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Speaker 1: and it's creating abandonment immediately. Exactly. Babies learning a crib

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Speaker 1: to be hungry for the very thing they're wired to have,

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Speaker 1: which is proximity to their mother's body. That's what they

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Speaker 1: come out used to. They're used to her smell, the

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Speaker 1: sound of her voice, and the nearness of her heartbeat.

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Speaker 1: So to separate that infant from the mother damages her

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Speaker 1: milk supply, messes with her hormones. I think it's one

429
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: of the reasons we had to so much postpartum depression.

430
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: Oh really, that's not interesting. It's not serving mothers or babies. Yeah,

431
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: because don't you mention there's something about the baby is

432
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: supposed to be with the mom for a thousand days

433
00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: straight after birth minimum. Yeah. Wow, Well, there's a research

434
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: study talking about the first thousand days and that's where

435
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: I used a thousand days um. But there's a lot

436
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: of other statistics in the book about really how long

437
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: infants benefit from proximity, and um, it can be very

438
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: jarring to listen to that if you're a mom and

439
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: you're thinking about your own children, and oh, oh dear,

440
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: it can be really hard to to listen to things

441
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: like that. And I really did not write a parenting book.

442
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: I wrote a book for adult daughters. I wrote a

443
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: book for women so that we would understand why we

444
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: do what we do with food and with relationships, because

445
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: that's really where it impacts us. I didn't really write

446
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: a parenting manual, because really, does do mothers need more shame?

447
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: But I do have a note, you know, at the

448
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: end of the book about a note for new moms,

449
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: a note for women that are thinking about mothering, and

450
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: a note for women who have little ones, so that

451
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: it could be the maternal guide that they may not

452
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: find with their doctor. They may not have access to

453
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: their mother, or maybe their mother wasn't a safe place

454
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: to talk about those things. But it's really a book

455
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: for for us as women to identify why we do

456
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: what we do food and with relationships and what we're

457
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: actually looking for. I think that that's huge, or did

458
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: we have enough nurturing what we really need is protection,

459
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: which is why we want, you know, keep us safe.

460
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: Or are we really looking for someone who just kind

461
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: of inspires us we really want some guidance. Yeah, I

462
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: think what's so interesting about humans in general? And this

463
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: is what I've learned in my own journey. And this

464
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: this isn't like I've mentioned this to you before the podcast.

465
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: I don't want to ever make this an indictment on

466
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: mothers in general. Like you said, mothers get enough shame

467
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: and it is probably the hardest job in the world,

468
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: I believe. I mean, I really truly think that UM

469
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: and parents in general like something I've learned as I've

470
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: gotten older, and you know, in my last relationship their

471
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: word children UM from another marriage. But I just saw

472
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: so much of the difficulty or the stresses or the

473
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: the needs and all of the things that you have

474
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: to show up for and you're going through your own stuff,

475
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, And so I think parenting. I just want

476
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: to put that disclaimer out there. This is not to

477
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: target parents and be like, wow, you did a really

478
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: bad job, UM. But I do think that the older

479
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: I've gotten and the more work I've done, I can

480
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: look back and say, you know, Oh wow, that is

481
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: something that maybe I missed or this was happening at

482
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: that age for me. So it makes sense to what

483
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: I am trying to heal as an adult, and so

484
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm bringing in similar patterns or I go back to

485
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: a certain relationship trying to seek healing actually within myself.

486
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: And I think that that's the point, right as we

487
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: don't have to look back and be I mean, if

488
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: you have anger to you, rod your parents work through that.

489
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: But we don't have to sit here and just play

490
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: the blame game all day about understanding maybe how things

491
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: have happened in your childhood so that you can look

492
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: at your adult life and how you're repeating those patterns

493
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: to heal them and to them make different choices. UM.

494
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: So we had mentioned that when you're maybe in an

495
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: addictive relationship, what you're seeking is certain nourishment, certain nurturing,

496
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: and you keep mentioning the food and sex piece. And

497
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: so I when I was listening to Mother Hunger, I'd

498
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: listened to it on audiobook, and I thought that was

499
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: so fascinating because I want to talk about them a

500
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: little bit separately maybe, um, but like the food piece,

501
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: for instance, that can be in overeating and that I

502
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: can also be an under eating and that you're really

503
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: there's some sort of hole inside of us that you're

504
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: trying to fill with that. But like, can you talk

505
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: through what that looks like, because again, I think that's

506
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: one of those things that might just kind of get

507
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: swept under the rug by society and it's a huge

508
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: piece to this kind of harm and healing that we need.

509
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: Right Well, our first experience of love is through um,

510
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: how we're fed as infants. So when we have a

511
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: hunger pain, it hurts. So when a little baby has

512
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: a hunger pain and that's relieved with a warm embrace

513
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: and milk, there's a sense of pleasure and satisfaction. But

514
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: let's say a little baby has a hunger pain, but

515
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: their mother or father or caregiver has them on a

516
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: schedule and says, no, it's not time for that baby

517
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: to eat. And this is what a lot of pediatricians

518
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: do because schedules are made based on infant formula, not

519
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: breast milk. Breast milk digests much faster because babies are

520
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: supposed to feed very frequently, because they're supposed to bond

521
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: with their mother. The skin to skin contact actually grows

522
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: the brain. So when we separate babies to sleep alone,

523
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: feed them on a formula where hurting brain development and

524
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: we're hurting bonding. We're also creating a food problem because

525
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: babies know when they're hungry. They don't respond to a schedule.

526
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: When they were in utero, they were fed on demand.

527
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so if we can feed them on demand,

528
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: which is not what our culture teaches, because we want

529
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: to keep going on with our life, as if we

530
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: didn't just have a baby, right, let's just keep going

531
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: with life. Um, and the baby can adapt to our schedule.

532
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: That's what creates a food whole. The baby knows hunger

533
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: way too young. Let's say, though, maybe we do feed

534
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: the baby whenever the baby cries. But um, different people

535
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: feed the baby. Some people don't want to be doing it.

536
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: Some people are angry, some people are bored. So the

537
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: baby learns that there's relief with food, with milk, but

538
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: not with human touch. This doesn't feel good. I don't

539
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: like being in this person's lap or or a fidgety

540
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: Not all human touch feels good. But the food gives us. Really,

541
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: either way, our first experience of pleasure is with the milk,

542
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: not the person. So as adults, we might associate pleasure

543
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 1: with a feeling of fullness, but not human touch. But

544
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: what I find, whether somebody's overeating to feel good or

545
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: under eating because hunger became normal, what's the common denominator deprivation?

546
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Overeating doesn't solve the problem. Starving doesn't solve

547
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: the problem because both leave us nutritionally deprived, both leave

548
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: us not loving our body, and both leave us unavailable

549
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: for an intimate connection with ourselves and with someone else.

550
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: Is there a piece of control in there that we're

551
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: are we seeking control by either over under eating to

552
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: try to like fill the whole like you've talked about,

553
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: I think it's regulation. What we're trying to do is

554
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: regulate our nervous system. We don't feel okay, whether we

555
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: don't feel safe, whether that's we don't feel loved. It's

556
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: unique to each person, But what we're trying to do

557
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: is regulate the disregulated nervous system that's either anxious or

558
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: downregulated and umb okay. So talk me now through the

559
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: sex piece, because I think also a lot of women,

560
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to start talking about sex

561
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: addiction specifically, I think we would immediately be like, oh,

562
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: tiger Woods, you know what I mean, Like you just

563
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: kind of go to men and I don't know that

564
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: it has to look the way again that our society

565
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: has painted it to look. But what is the sex

566
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: piece to this? What is the love the relationship piece?

567
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: How does that all fit into this narrative? Well, great question,

568
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think there's so much shame attached for

569
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: women with sex that that women don't like to talk

570
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: about sex addiction. But the thing is, our brain doesn't

571
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: know the difference between love and sex, right right, righte good.

572
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: It involves bonding, it involves pleasure. Our bodies are designed

573
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: for pleasure. So sexuality in a healthy way brings us pleasure.

574
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes even in a way that's not so healthy. We

575
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: can have pleasure. But sexuality, what it really is giving us,

576
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: generally is touch. So let's go back to infancy again.

577
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: If we aren't nurtured well or adequately, we're going to

578
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: be touched prived. We don't know, we're touch deprived. We adapt.

579
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: But then let's say as we move into adolescens and

580
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: we start to have our first experience of arousal and

581
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: touch and it feels so good. That's because we were deprived.

582
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: We didn't know it, and this feels good. And what

583
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: I find is that many women get their first access

584
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: to touch by being sexy, because that's going to bring

585
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: more touch and more attention. It's not conscious, it's not

586
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: something that somebody does systematically necessarily, and whether it's through

587
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: auto eroticism or having another person touch, it meets a need,

588
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: just like food and food and touch are the most

589
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: primitive needs humans have. Period. We need them both. We

590
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: need them both almost equally. You know, they did the

591
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: studies with the monkeys where they put them in different cages,

592
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: baby monkeys, and in one cage they would feed the

593
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: monkeys but not touch them. And those those monkeys literally,

594
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: we're so brain damage they could not then go back

595
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: into the world of monkeys. Some of them died. In

596
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: the other cage they put in like a wiry mother

597
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: with a cloth on her, and these babies would climb

598
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: all over the soft mom and they did better when

599
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: they were returned to the wild. So touch and food, yep, wow,

600
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: the most primitive needs we have, and those are the

601
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: most nourishing elements we get from our primary career. And

602
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: what pressure as women, I mean going back to the

603
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: cultural piece here. Those us two primary needs are probably

604
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: the two things that we have the most pressure on

605
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: us around, like you better look good, your body better

606
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: look a certain way. To then be told you're sexy,

607
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: but don't be too sexy because then you're a slut.

608
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: And then don't you know, don't enjoy sex or don't

609
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: want sex because we're not supposed to that. Then you

610
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: can't be the good girl. Like the double bind, it's

611
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: like a quadruple by. It's just like we are literally

612
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: painted in this culture as just I mean, we can't

613
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: even live. There is absolutely no blueprint for us to

614
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: have a healthy relationship. If you really think about it,

615
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: that's right, You're exactly right, and you are speaking to

616
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: why I wrote both these books. Yeah, I mean truly,

617
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 1: and I think unfortunately, because of this bind that we're

618
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: talking about, women sometimes get retraumatized when they seek help

619
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: because these problems that are coming from the system we

620
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: live in, the culture we live in, get labeled as depression, anxiety,

621
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: your problems, mental disorders, mood disorders when they are a

622
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: perfectly rational response to an irrational, insane double bind. Yeah,

623
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: and then add on top of that that so many

624
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: women are working nowadays, and so this mother Hunger piece, like,

625
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: how could you side scept that, you know, like a

626
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: mom can't be everywhere at all times, and there's right,

627
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: And I think that that's where, um, it gets pretty

628
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: tricky to write a book about mother hunger because what

629
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: am I trying to do set women backwards? And that's

630
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: not it at all. As a feminist, what I think

631
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: I love about feminism is that it just gives me choices.

632
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: It's really hard to make choices though. If I don't

633
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: know what mothering demands of me, I just go into

634
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: motherhood because that's what all the women in my family do,

635
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: or that's what I think I need. But I don't

636
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 1: know what's actually required of me. Then it's not really

637
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: a choice, is it? Not actually a decision? Is it?

638
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: But if I had a book like this when I

639
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: was a young woman, I would have been a lot

640
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: more informed about what I was going into and I

641
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: might have even decided to delay or I mean I

642
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: did make some of those decisions, but I would have

643
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: had more choices. Do I want children how many? And

644
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: do I want to worry? I just would have been

645
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: better informed. And I think the more informed we are

646
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: as women, the more we get to have some freedom. Yeah, yeah,

647
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: because in the in the Mother Hunger Book too, And

648
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: if you guys are listening and you're like, I mean,

649
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: what am I supposed to do? I have to pay

650
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: my bills or I'm a single mom. There are there

651
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: are things that you mentioned about caregiving in general, as

652
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: other options that they don't necessarily have to be the mom,

653
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: And it's just mostly about consistency and how you were

654
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: showing up for the child. And so I really appreciated

655
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: that because I could hear the voices of so many

656
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: of my friends being like, this is unrealistic though in

657
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: our sisters siety a thousand days straight, like what, I

658
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: have to go to work and it's not necessarily meaning

659
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: that it's a well also, I think the letting go

660
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: of a little bit of that control and like allowing

661
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: someone else possibly to come in and nurture your child

662
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: in the in the way that you would, but it's

663
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: not necessarily you. And so as a mom, I think

664
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: that would be really tricky too, but you do you

665
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: offer alternatives, and I think that that was really helpful.

666
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: Definitely definitely. So we mentioned addictive relationships, and um, I

667
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: do think that that if you are feeling like you're

668
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: in a relationship that's maybe the back and forth or

669
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: you can't get out, or there's something in you. I

670
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: think you just know too, you know, like I always knew,

671
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: I knew something wasn't right, but I could not put

672
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: my finger on it. And instead a lot of times

673
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: I'll take on all the blame or I'll just like

674
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: try to be better. Like if I just fixed this

675
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: one thing in my life and then I'm overperforming, then

676
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: it just gets worse because the rest of my life

677
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: falls apart. So if you're even having this inkling, I

678
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: really really recommend reading a book Ready to Heal, just

679
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: to give some insight into what it might look like. UM.

680
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 1: You give a lot of one on one examples of yeah,

681
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: I think there were clients of yours, maybe that and

682
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: Ready to Heal. I did case studies so that studies

683
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: recovery of four clients who um had different forms of

684
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: love addiction and what their process looked like. In Mother Hunger,

685
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: just as a disclaimer, I did not use clients stories. Instead,

686
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: I used media. I used their used um Hollywood movie

687
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: or the Netflix. Dirty John is a great example of

688
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: both love addiction. Another hunger, um, and then I used

689
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: memoir Wild Game is such a great, great memoir about

690
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 1: lack of guidance. So the stories I have, Kelly are

691
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: just too hangful to write about. And I feel the

692
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: protective of the women I've worked is so I did

693
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: not use taste studies in that book, but in Ready

694
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: to Heal, and I think it was important because it's

695
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: a way to understand what love edition looks like totally.

696
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: And those four women in that book, um, all had

697
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: just their own little particular dance. Yeah, totally attached and style.

698
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad you just mentioned that. So let's

699
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how that plays into this because, um,

700
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: I've also talked about attachment style, and you know, I

701
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: identify mostly as anxious. I can vacillate and I can

702
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: go to avoidant as well, and just depending on the dynamic,

703
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm working towards earned secure attachment. So that is where

704
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: I am now, and um, that's the relationship dynamic that

705
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: I want to continue to you know, invite into my

706
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: life at this point. But can you kind of tell

707
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: people an overview of what that what attachment looks like.

708
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: I do think we're starting to as a culture talk

709
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: about this a little more. So maybe most people listening

710
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: to this podcast probably have a little bit of an idea.

711
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: But what does that look like in your kind of

712
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: work or where have you seen that play into this stuff? Well,

713
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think what's so exciting for

714
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: me and for a lot of my colleagues is that

715
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: attachment is becoming mainstream dialogue. Yeah. The book attached to

716
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: the Great, great Great strides, So so to tie it

717
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: into just what I do specifically, other hunger is just

718
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: really a nice name for insecure attachment. But your attachment

719
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: exists on a spectrum. Insecure attachment can be on the

720
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: anxious end, on the avoidant end um, or anywhere on

721
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: that spectrum. And what the science tells us is about

722
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: fifty of us are insecurely attached. I think no, a

723
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: lot more, but to oh, yeah, but that's what the

724
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: science says. So if we go with that, let's say

725
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: this is not a pathology, this is just kind of normal, right, Yeah,

726
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: we know where we are on that spectrum. It can

727
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: help us understand why we act the way we do

728
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: in relationships. And what I have found that happens in

729
00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: an addictive relationship is because we are maybe um unaware

730
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: of our attachment style, will pick someone who's really toxic

731
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: for our attachment style right, which can grow us up

732
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: a bit um but ultimately can really cause us a

733
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: lot of harm. But I find with women that um,

734
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: based on our attachment style in love addiction, will have

735
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: one partner. Let's say we're anxious, I'll go with Let's

736
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: say we have an ancious attachment style. We're gonna have

737
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: a highly addictive relationship with someone who's highly avoidant, and

738
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: that's going to burn us. So then the next time

739
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: we date somebody, we're probably gonna find somebody who's pretty anxious,

740
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: and then we're going to be avoidant. We're gonna be nauseous,

741
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 1: we're gonna be suffocated by this person, and it will

742
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: last very long. So the next one we're gonna go

743
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: back with someone who's really really avoidant. So okay, you

744
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: get where I'm going with this, the penduli going back

745
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: forth back forth. And just as an aside, women do

746
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: this with their girlfriends too. Really just romantic women will

747
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: also do this with their girlfriends. And I write about

748
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: that and ready to heal. How if you're if you're

749
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: struggling with love addiction. You're ends are either going to

750
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: bore you. They're either there because you have a crush

751
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: on them or they're there because you want to be there.

752
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's all the outlined in ready to remember

753
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: this part now. Yes, I thought it was interesting too

754
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: because when I actually read that part about the friendships,

755
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: you know what I started to think about with my

756
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: work relationships. When you start diving into this stuff, these dynamics,

757
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: you will uncover how deep it actually goes. It's wild right, yes,

758
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: everywhere because the truth is jelly right. We are the

759
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: common denominator, whether it's with our friends or with our lovers,

760
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: keeps coming back to us like, wow, how did I

761
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: first learn what love feels like? And so when we're

762
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: talking about that in context of attachment, if that was

763
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: what we first learned, that's what we go to as

764
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: adults to recreate because some are unconsciously we're trying to

765
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: heal that wind exactly. So if we were left to

766
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: cry it out in the crib more than we could tolerate,

767
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: we're going to be very anxious, right, and then we're

768
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: going to look for someone to soothe. Let's say we

769
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: never felt safe as a child because our mother was

770
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: not safe when we were worried for her safety and

771
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: we kind of had to protect her. We're probably looking

772
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: for protection as a woman. What would an avoidant look

773
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: like an avoidant? That's great questions. So I'm going to

774
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: go back to the example that we keep coming to

775
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 1: an infant in the crib, because this is where attachment

776
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: styles really begin, is from zero to three. So let's

777
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: say an infant in the crib is responded to um

778
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: periodically but not consistently. That's going to create some anxiety.

779
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: And if an infant is not responded to consistently, what

780
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: that infant is going to learn in in a pre verbal, nonlinear,

781
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 1: non cognitive way, in a purely bodied way, is no

782
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: one's coming. There's no one there. So what the infant

783
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 1: body thinks is happening, thinks I'm about to die. So nature,

784
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: Mother Nature has designed this beautiful system to start down

785
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: regulating the baby. The baby's breathing will slow down, heart

786
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: rate will slow down. This is the beginning of an

787
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: avoidant attachment. The infant will literally turn away from the

788
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: outside world totally inside. We call it the dorsal vegel stance.

789
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: They go dorsal like playing possum. They think they're dying,

790
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: not cognitively, the body is preparing that baby for death.

791
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: That is the beginning of an avoidant attachment. So that

792
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: that's go ahead. I'm sorry I cut you off. That's

793
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: how even though an avoidant person looks like they're fine,

794
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: like they don't need anybody, they are just so disconnected

795
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: from themselves that they really don't feel the need. God,

796
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: let's see. Now, this is like a funny thing that

797
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: just came up for me. But I have a pattern

798
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: of of picking a void it men, and when you

799
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: were just talking even and this is sort of um

800
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: the dynamic I end up playing in the relationship. But

801
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: that makes me so sad, right like, And for some

802
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: reason I'm able to see that in these adult men

803
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: that I date is this little child that I'm just like, ah,

804
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: and so then I want to nurture them, which makes

805
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: for a terrible relationship dynamic. But it is so incredibly

806
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 1: sad to me to see a grown adult feel like

807
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: they have to have their armor up and like the

808
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: boxing gloves out at all times, and you just want

809
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 1: to be like no, you know, like I'm here. But

810
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: what they have been programmed to believe is that nobody

811
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: is there, and that is just so incredibly sad for me.

812
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 1: I mean both, I guess both ways are incredibly sad.

813
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: And it's like, this is why healing. I'm so grateful

814
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: that that healing is offered in all these different ways

815
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: that it is these days. But wow, to learn from

816
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: such an early age that no one is going to

817
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: be there for your right it's incredibly sad. Well, let's

818
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: let's talk about a little bit of the hope and

819
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: the solution piece, because I do believe that that is

820
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: a really important part of all this stuff. It can

821
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: be really overwhelming and if you're listening and feeling that way,

822
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: just no, like the only way out is through for sure,

823
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: But there is hope on the other side, and I

824
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: truly believe that I've seen it work for people. I'm

825
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: on that journey myself, and so you're not alone in that,

826
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: and um, just keep taking the next right step. But

827
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 1: can you talk to us a little bit about what

828
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: healing from an addictive relationship looks like? And then what

829
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: what is some hope that we can look for in

830
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: our upcoming relationships if we do this work. Well, I'll

831
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: try to summarize this in a way that is fairly simple. Okay.

832
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: First of all, an addictive relationship is just a manifestation

833
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 1: of a relational heartache. Okay, so it didn't happen alone.

834
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: It happened in a relationship. Heartbreak happens as little ones.

835
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: Then we replay and replay it. So since it happened

836
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: in a relationship, it takes relationships to heal it. Yeah,

837
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: this isn't something you do alone. You can read every

838
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: book in the world and have a whole but a

839
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: bunch of awareness and it's not going to heal this heartbreak.

840
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: This is why it's really helpful to find a support

841
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: group that can be in a counseling practice or that

842
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 1: can be a twelve step support group, and then defines

843
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: a mentor, whether that's a coach, a therapist, or a

844
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: sponsor who's been where you want to go, and that relationship,

845
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: that one on one diet with that person starts to

846
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 1: read wire your brain. This is why psychotherapy can work

847
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: if you're with somebody who's trained. You want to be

848
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: with someone who knows what addiction is, who knows what

849
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: love addiction is, so they don't look at you and

850
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: just say, well, um, why don't you just stop like

851
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: shots fired? Man, If someone said that to me, I'd

852
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: be like, are you kid? Did you think I haven't

853
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: thought of that? Right? So I think sometimes the wrong

854
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: therapist can be worse than no therapist at all. So

855
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: so with that said, that's where you're going to find

856
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: some help because it is a relational process. The other

857
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: thing is, I want to remind anyone who's listening that

858
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: your body, Mother Nature did not create you to be sick. Yeah,

859
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: he created you to heal. Your body already knows how

860
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: to heal, and the minute you have a name for

861
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: what's broken, the healing begins. So you're resonating with what

862
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: Kelly and I are talking about, You're either resonating with

863
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: mother hunger or you're resonating with an addictive relationship. You

864
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: have already started healing. Your body is already probably feeling

865
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: a little relief, And even if you're feeling a little

866
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: overwhelmed or a little discouraged, that relief is in there.

867
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: And that is your body's way of saying, oh, thank goodness,

868
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: there's a name for this. Other people do this, and

869
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: your your body will find a way to make this better.

870
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 1: It's not going to put out. It's not going to

871
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: be without some effort, but you're already doing it. Yeah,

872
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: I love and ready to heal. You have kind of

873
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: a breakdown even of the withdrawal period, because so much

874
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: of this is chemically doing different things to our bodies.

875
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: So if you're in one of these relationships, there is

876
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: a withdrawal period after that can be very uncomfortable. Um,

877
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: but there are ways out, and Kelly gives a lot

878
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,959
Speaker 1: of guidance as to what that's gonna look like, because

879
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us want to be prepared,

880
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: right that's one of the scariest pieces of this. But

881
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: if you feel like you have a little insight into

882
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: what to expect, that can make the process a little smoother.

883
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: And then also just different resources like you mentioned the

884
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: twelve step groups. A therapist. I've been talking a lot

885
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: to people about like a c SAT or your what

886
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: are your There's all these letters behind all of yours names,

887
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,479
Speaker 1: and they mean very important things. I have found because

888
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: I've done so much therapy that I've tried different kinds

889
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: of therapy. So what kind of therapist? You're a c SAT?

890
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: And uh, well, you know, I don't I'm not necessarily points,

891
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 1: So using me is not a great example. I would say, yes,

892
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: try to find a certified sex addiction therapist if you're

893
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 1: even if you're dealing with love addiction. Okay, yes, um.

894
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: But I also think that if you find someone who

895
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: is somatic trained, s E trained, you find someone who's E, M,

896
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: d R trained, trauma trained, and someone with an attachment

897
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: orientation to their therapy, you're going to be in good shape.

898
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: Just take them. Take your therapist the book you have,

899
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: and they have those trainings. They're going to read these

900
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 1: books and they're gonna walk every step of the way

901
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: with you. So this is not hot in grad school.

902
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 1: This is not in the diagnostic manual that every therapist

903
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: has to learn about. This is what therapists who are

904
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: really good go get more training to learn how to do.

905
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: Which is why I'm training therapists now on how to

906
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: do this. So in the meantime, you've got the books,

907
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: you've got podcasts like Kelly's here where you can listen

908
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: and learn, and you might be educating your therapist. But

909
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: if you've got a therapist with good training beyond graduate school,

910
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: that's that's what you need. Yeah, that's so funny. You

911
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: mentioned about the educating the therapist. I was seeing a

912
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: couple of therapists and I was telling him about p

913
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: a Melodies book Facing Love Addiction. He was like, what

914
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: what is that? And I like, I have found because

915
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: addiction has been a huge part of my life. So

916
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: I work the best with people who have a deep

917
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: understanding of addicted addiction in general. But um, I've experienced both,

918
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: and I do believe that that's so weird. I didn't

919
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: they should be treating this. I mean, teaching this in

920
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: grad school. I don't get it, but they don't. They don't.

921
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: So anyway, do your research. Check out these books. Can

922
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: you tell people where else they can find you? Because

923
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 1: I actually found a lot of helpful information on your website.

924
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: Oh good, Yes, please go to my website because trying

925
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: to design it so that you can learn a lot

926
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: therapyt articles. They're pot cash there, um information about mother hunger.

927
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: The other place is I'm trying to navigate and learn Instagram. Yes,

928
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: I am actually doing it myself because I like the

929
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: personal interaction. Um so check out my Instagram. Yeah, it's

930
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: at Kelly McDaniel, makes your handle Daniel Therapy there. Okay,

931
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: the website is Killing mc daniel therapy dot com and

932
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: Instagram is killing mc daniel therapy and on the website,

933
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: you guys, there is a quiz you can take to

934
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: identify if you are experiencing mother hunger. Right? Is that

935
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: the quiz I saw? And I think that that kind

936
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: of thing sometimes if you're like, I don't know, but

937
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm like kind of identifying with this stuff and I

938
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: don't know if I want to talk to a therapist.

939
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: Start there if that's what this is, or go read

940
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: the books and see what you come up with. But

941
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: all of it can be a very gentle path and

942
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to overwhelm you into quitting, because I

943
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: know some of this stuff is very overwhelming. I'm so

944
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: glad we were able to connect. I know this is

945
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: a lot to digest on one adding, so I so

946
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here, and I love the work you're doing.

947
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: It's helping me immensely. So thank god you wrote these books. Seriously, um,

948
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: it's been kind of the missing piece of my journey,

949
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: as I was telling you earlier, so it's it's really

950
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: really really helped. Thank you. So glad. I'm so glad,

951
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad we finally got to connect and

952
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: talk and talk more about mother hunger and love addiction.

953
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for the work that you're doing and bringing

954
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 1: this to to really everyone that needs it. I write

955
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,439
Speaker 1: for women that work with women, but this impacts men,

956
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: and it impacts every gender and every orientation. Yes, I

957
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: agree with that. If you guys have any questions, you

958
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 1: always know where to hit me up. But you can

959
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: also find Kelly on Instagram or on her website. I'll

960
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: put all of those descriptions and links in the bio

961
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: of this podcast. I'll put the links to the books.

962
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: Highly recommend both of them. I personally started with Ready

963
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: to Heal, Do you have a Do you think that's

964
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: the best way to start, and then go to Mother Hunger.

965
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: It depends. I mean, if you're struggling with an addictural relationship, yes, yes,

966
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: lots of people come to Mother Hunger because they have

967
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: other issues going on, so Ready to Do not necessarily apply.

968
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: So I think trust your own intuition. And some people

969
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: are finding it helpful to go to Amazon and listen

970
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: to the first introduction of the book. There's a free

971
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: sample where they record the book, so you have me

972
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: talking through the introduction and that might help you decide

973
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 1: if that's something you want to read or not. Um,

974
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: but I would just really say that I have learned

975
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: that the more reviews that a book gets, it changes

976
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: it up to the algorithm at Amazon, like I didn't know.

977
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know this with my first book. I have

978
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: learned so much about book publishing with Mother Hunger. Yeah,

979
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: I'm on a mission. I want to educate doctors, I

980
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: want to educate therapists. Although the book is written for

981
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: women like you and me, I'm on a mission. And

982
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: the more people to actually write a review, the algorithm

983
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: puts the book up and then more people find it

984
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: who need it. So if you do read it, and

985
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: if you feel inclined, I know it's some times it

986
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: takes a few minutes and it might feel vulnerable, but

987
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: I'd love a review on even you know, honest, it

988
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be glowing. Just anything you say great. Okay,

989
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: Well I'm gonna go do you mine now so you

990
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 1: guys will see it there. But go go write a

991
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: review if you read the book, and um, let's get

992
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: this word out there. I really do want this to

993
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: spread and I hope that this keeps growing and growing

994
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: and growing so Kelly, thank you again for being here,

995
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: and thank you guys so much for listening. Thanks for

996
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,879
Speaker 1: listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson, where

997
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: we believe everyone has a little velvet and a little edge.

998
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: Subscribe for more conversations on life