WEBVTT - Ep 199 Sleep Part 2: Predictably unpredictable

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<v Speaker 1>Hi. My name is Kelly. I'm a big fan of

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast, so it's a real treat to be here

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<v Speaker 1>sharing my story about sleep, or, in my case, lack

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<v Speaker 1>of it. I was nearing the end of my final

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<v Speaker 1>quarter at college, and I'd spent my finals week living

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<v Speaker 1>off caffeine pills and no sleep in an effort to

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<v Speaker 1>cram for my tests. The day after my last presentation,

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<v Speaker 1>I decided to go cold turkey on the caffeine to

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<v Speaker 1>spend a few hours at my internship and then head

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<v Speaker 1>home for some uninterrupted napping. My internship, I could feel

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<v Speaker 1>the heaviness of my week of all nighters pulling at me,

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<v Speaker 1>so I asked to leave early and got in my

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<v Speaker 1>car to battle the early developments of rush hour traffic.

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<v Speaker 1>As I sat in my car, the stop and go

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<v Speaker 1>movement slowly lulled me to sleep, and the next thing

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<v Speaker 1>I knew, I was jolted awake by a thud as

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<v Speaker 1>my car had rolled forward and struck the jeep in

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<v Speaker 1>front of me Because we were going so slow, The

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<v Speaker 1>only damage done to the jeep was a cut in

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<v Speaker 1>his wheel cover. The driver was so nice and checked

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<v Speaker 1>on me to make sure I was okay, and then

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<v Speaker 1>drove off than being incredibly embarrassed. I was fine, but

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<v Speaker 1>my car, Betty, the cute little blue car I'd had

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<v Speaker 1>since I was sixteen, had damaged to her frame and

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<v Speaker 1>was totaled. Now that I'm older, I'm incredibly cautious of

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<v Speaker 1>driving fatigued. I was so lucky my wake up call

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<v Speaker 1>didn't hurt anyone except poor Betty.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, I mean, what a harrowing. What a harrowing and

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<v Speaker 2>also like relatable.

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<v Speaker 3>I know who.

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<v Speaker 4>Hasn't stayed up way too lately, many nights in.

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<v Speaker 3>A row too often?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I know, terrifying. Glad you're okay. I'm sorry about

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<v Speaker 4>your car.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, I know.

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<v Speaker 4>Kelly. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

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<v Speaker 3>We really appreciate it. We do. Thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you. Hi. I'm Aaron Welsh.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm Eron Alman Updike And this is this podcast

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<v Speaker 2>Will kill You.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Sleep Part two.

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<v Speaker 4>Sleep Part two.

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<v Speaker 2>If you didn't listen last week or watch, you should

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<v Speaker 2>because it's really great.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, there's a lot of criep out of it. Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>A last episode we discussed sort of like what is sleep?

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<v Speaker 2>What are the different stages of sleep? A little bit

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<v Speaker 2>about what sleep does for us, for us and how

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<v Speaker 2>we fall asleep, et cetera. We talked about sleep and animals,

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<v Speaker 2>very cute stuff in hemispheric sleep and Love to Sleep yep.

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<v Speaker 2>And this week we're going to go in more into

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<v Speaker 2>how humans have slept over history and also like what

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<v Speaker 2>sleep disruption means, what sleep quality means.

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<v Speaker 4>And what are the consequences of not getting enough sleep.

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<v Speaker 4>There's a lot of them. There's a lot.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll get into all of it.

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<v Speaker 4>We will, but first it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Quarantiney plusy perrita time.

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<v Speaker 4>It is. What are we drinking this week?

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<v Speaker 3>We're still drinking.

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<v Speaker 4>We are pillow talk.

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<v Speaker 3>Pillow talk.

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<v Speaker 4>Should we do the whole episode in a whisper.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so that everyone I can fall asleep. It's Camma

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<v Speaker 3>meal tea Camra meal tea ginger, ginger, honey, and a lemon.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't do it.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm going to lose it. That's enough for me.

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<v Speaker 2>We will post the full recipe for pillow talk on

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<v Speaker 2>our social media at the very least, and uh maybe

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<v Speaker 2>on our website, which is where you can also find.

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<v Speaker 5>So many things that you really really want trust trust,

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<v Speaker 5>like merch. Yeah, we've got that. We've got transcripts from

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<v Speaker 5>all of these episodes. We've got a good Reads list,

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<v Speaker 5>a bookshop dot org affiliate account. We've got links to Bloodmobile,

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<v Speaker 5>who does the music for every one of our episodes.

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<v Speaker 5>We've got sources from them all. We have a contact

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<v Speaker 5>us form and a first hand account form, and much more,

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<v Speaker 5>much more.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't even know.

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<v Speaker 2>I honestly don't even know, because I kind of zoned

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<v Speaker 2>out when you were talking too, I know, while we're

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<v Speaker 2>discussing it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this podcast will kill you dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a YouTube video that you are like, we're

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<v Speaker 2>filming this.

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<v Speaker 4>We are in the exactly right studios. It's really cool.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having us, Yes.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>And so if you would like to watch the full

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<v Speaker 2>thing it is there that is impossible to do.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you. If you are watching it, yeah, and.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're not, you know, you can always rate reviews,

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<v Speaker 2>subscribe on various platforms.

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<v Speaker 3>All the platforms, yeah, that you like to use.

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<v Speaker 2>God, it's like, we this is our first time doing this,

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<v Speaker 2>every single time, every time.

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<v Speaker 3>So on that note, break time, I need one already.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's take a quick break, and when we get back,

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<v Speaker 2>there is so much to discuss about Sleep in Humans.

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<v Speaker 2>That was great, thank you, I said a lot for

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<v Speaker 2>the book club.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh with that? Yeah really?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh no, not really, okay, okay, okay, break time starting now.

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<v Speaker 2>Earlier this year, I bought myself a smart watch.

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<v Speaker 4>I know that, you do know that, and.

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<v Speaker 2>I started wearing it overnight. When I woke up in

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<v Speaker 2>the morning, I would check out how my watch that

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<v Speaker 2>I slept right, how many hours did I get? How

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<v Speaker 2>much deep sleep? What was my percentage? How many wake ups?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, only six and a half hours of sleep?

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<v Speaker 2>Only five percent deep sleep? Oh yep, that's when I

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<v Speaker 2>woke up because my dog was licking himself excessively. Always,

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<v Speaker 2>no wonder, I'm so tired today. And on the rare

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<v Speaker 2>occasion that I hit my eight hour sleep goal, my

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<v Speaker 2>phone would send a little congratulatory notification.

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<v Speaker 4>Like yay, does it really? You did it?

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<v Speaker 2>You hit your goal, and I would be I would

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<v Speaker 2>like got. I started to get really annoyed, like I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know why, but I was just like, yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>hit it today. Once every two months, thank you for

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<v Speaker 2>reminding me what a failure I am when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to sleeping. My god, and a little bit like I'm exaggerating,

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<v Speaker 2>I know, but still, but it would just be like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you hit it today, and I was like, what about

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<v Speaker 2>yesterday when I got seven hours?

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<v Speaker 4>Like was that okay?

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<v Speaker 3>Clearly is not good enough, right Siri?

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<v Speaker 2>And then I was like, okay, am I actually tired?

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<v Speaker 2>Or it was my watch sort of creating this self

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<v Speaker 2>fulfilling prophecy where I convinced myself that I was more

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<v Speaker 2>tired just because I had X number of wake ups

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<v Speaker 2>or I didn't hit.

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<v Speaker 4>Eight hours or whatever. Yeah, and I kept wearing it.

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<v Speaker 2>But then I was like, you know what, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to check what it recorded until later in the day,

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<v Speaker 2>just to see, like how tired am I to die?

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<v Speaker 4>I feel?

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<v Speaker 3>Before I have the watch tell me how I should feel.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent? Right, And it didn't always align. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>this is all anecdotal. This is an end of one.

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<v Speaker 4>I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>This is my personal introduction to the story, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>I know that these watches, like you talked about last week,

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<v Speaker 2>they are not substitutes for professional sleep devices, and they

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<v Speaker 2>can be very inaccurate. And what mine did for me

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of, in a way increase my sleep anxiety,

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<v Speaker 2>or like the anxiety that I feel about not getting

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<v Speaker 2>enough sleep or not getting quality sleep. According to my watch,

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<v Speaker 2>I was rarely getting quote unquote enough sleep, Like what

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<v Speaker 2>does enough mean? It was from public health guidelines seven

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<v Speaker 2>to nine hours. And also alarmist headlines also would talk

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<v Speaker 2>about how much sleep you should be getting. And these

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<v Speaker 2>headlines every day are always proclaiming some new connection between

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<v Speaker 2>a lack of sleep and chronic disease or mental health

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<v Speaker 2>issues or dementia or poor life satisfaction or just sudden death.

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<v Speaker 3>It's true.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I know, I know, believe me.

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<v Speaker 2>And even when I try to go to bed early

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<v Speaker 2>and practice good sleep hygiene, I rarely hit that solid eight.

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<v Speaker 2>What was wrong with me? Oh, I was sleeping myself

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<v Speaker 2>into an early grave or not sleeping.

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<v Speaker 4>Or not sleeping.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was awaking myself into an early grave. But

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<v Speaker 2>one third to one half of American adults aren't getting

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<v Speaker 2>enough sleep according to those guidelines. Okay, fifty to seventy

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<v Speaker 2>million Americans have a sleep disorder.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I have that same stat.

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<v Speaker 2>And one in five Americans aged nineteen to thirty use

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<v Speaker 2>alcohol or cannabis as a sleepaid.

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<v Speaker 4>One to five. That's a problem. One in five.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is not medical advice, but that's a problem.

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<v Speaker 4>It's bad news.

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<v Speaker 2>We are struggling though, like all of this speaks to

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<v Speaker 2>a desire for sleep and not getting enough of it,

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<v Speaker 2>And so many aspects of our modern society are blamed

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<v Speaker 2>for bad sleep. Our screens, artificial lighting, stress, diet, lack

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<v Speaker 2>of exercise, and bad sleep has been in turn blamed

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<v Speaker 2>for everything. If only we could turn back time and

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<v Speaker 2>sleep the deep, unbroken, RESTful sleep of our ancestors. They

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<v Speaker 2>must have been so refreshed just laying down to sleep

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<v Speaker 2>when the sun dipped below the horizon and gently awakening

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<v Speaker 2>as the first rays of light softly caress their faces.

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<v Speaker 4>If only that.

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<v Speaker 2>Were true, If only, But what do we actually know

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<v Speaker 2>about how our ancestors slept and what bearing might that

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<v Speaker 2>have on our relationship with sleep today?

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<v Speaker 4>Sleep, since it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Behavior, unfortunately does not leave behind a fossil trace, learn

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<v Speaker 2>as I learned, I mean, even poop leaves behind.

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<v Speaker 4>A fossil trace.

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<v Speaker 2>We love a copper light, We do love a crop

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<v Speaker 2>re lite, crop re lighte crap.

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<v Speaker 4>O, my god.

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<v Speaker 2>But there are a couple of ways that we can

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<v Speaker 2>speculate about what sleep might have been or might have

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<v Speaker 2>looked like for pre industrial humans.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>One way is by asking how modern day, pre industrial

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<v Speaker 2>humans sleep like certain hunter gatherer groups right. And another

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<v Speaker 2>is by searching historical writings for mentions of sleep or

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<v Speaker 2>the nighttime experience.

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<v Speaker 4>I love this so much. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>In eighteen seventy eight, a twenty seven year old Robert

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<v Speaker 2>Louis Stevenson, still a few years away from his from

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<v Speaker 2>Treasure Island and fame. Okay, he was hiking through southern

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<v Speaker 2>France with his donkey Modestine as his only companion.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh, sorry, I love that.

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<v Speaker 4>He was just like, I'm gonna take a gap here,

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<v Speaker 4>take my donkey.

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<v Speaker 3>How do you just have a donkey? Just to think

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<v Speaker 3>you had?

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<v Speaker 4>You can buy a donkey today. I know that, but

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<v Speaker 4>you might have a donkey.

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<v Speaker 3>I couldn't have a donkey. I really like donkeys.

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<v Speaker 4>Don't think my landlord would allow it. We met a

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<v Speaker 4>donkey recently.

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<v Speaker 3>It was lovely.

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<v Speaker 2>We have more to talk about with donkeys than I anticipated.

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<v Speaker 2>So as Stevenson crossed across the land with his donkey,

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<v Speaker 2>he set up camp wherever he felt like, I'm done

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<v Speaker 2>for the day, I'll just camp here, he noticed something unusual. Quote,

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<v Speaker 2>there is one stirring hour unknown to those who dwell

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<v Speaker 2>in houses, when a wakeful influence goes abroad over the

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<v Speaker 2>sleeping hemisphere, and all the outdoor world are on their

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<v Speaker 2>feet at what inaudible summons.

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<v Speaker 4>Are all these sleepers thus recalled.

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<v Speaker 2>In the same hour to life. Even shepherds and old

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<v Speaker 2>country folk, who are the deepest red in these arcana,

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<v Speaker 2>have not a guess as to the means or purpose

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<v Speaker 2>of this nightly resurrection. Towards two in the morning, they

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<v Speaker 2>declare the thing takes place, and neither know or inquire

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<v Speaker 2>further end quote.

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<v Speaker 3>So He's like, everyone's awake at two am, bro, did

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<v Speaker 3>you know that?

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<v Speaker 4>Did you know that? No one knows why, but it happens.

0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.800
<v Speaker 4>Everyone's sleeping in the country, everyone in the country. Everyone

0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.160
<v Speaker 4>is doing it. Everyone's doing it.

0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.600
<v Speaker 2>But in fact, this midnight awakening or two am awakening

0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.000
<v Speaker 2>was only unusual to Stevenson and his contemporaries that were

0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:58.240
<v Speaker 2>living in rapidly industrializing areas Okay. For centuries before, many

0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:02.760
<v Speaker 2>societies across the globe slept in two chunks, separated by

0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.000
<v Speaker 2>about an hour or so, by phasic or segmented sleep.

0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.200
<v Speaker 5>I learned that Aaron in researching this, and I want

0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:11.480
<v Speaker 5>to know everything.

0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.520
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you a lot give it to me.

0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.319
<v Speaker 2>Not everything, Wow, I can tell you a lot.

0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.360
<v Speaker 4>No one knows everything. No.

0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 2>So evidence for this segmented sleep comes from a huge

0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.720
<v Speaker 2>variety of sources, and there's of course a bias towards

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.280
<v Speaker 2>English language sources, but there is evidence for this beyond

0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.079
<v Speaker 2>just the British Isles, which is where most of the

0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.800
<v Speaker 2>sources are concentrated. And many of these references are made

0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.880
<v Speaker 2>in passing, right, like not about the sleep itself. They're

0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.200
<v Speaker 2>not like we sleep in this way, right, because who

0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:41.960
<v Speaker 2>talks about that, right, Like it's not.

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.359
<v Speaker 4>A part of it's just it's just okay.

0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.520
<v Speaker 2>But there would be writings like after my second sleep,

0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.680
<v Speaker 2>after my second sleep, or after my first sleep, you know,

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.840
<v Speaker 2>things that showed that it wasn't particularly noteworthy or like interesting.

0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.160
<v Speaker 4>It wasn't like oh I need to highlight this, and

0:12:58.280 --> 0:12:58.959
<v Speaker 4>it was like like.

0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:00.599
<v Speaker 5>Hey guys, just so you know, oh I'm sleeping in

0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.560
<v Speaker 5>two chunks. It was just like like first breakfast, second breakfast.

0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:06.079
<v Speaker 4>Yes, even after my.

0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Second breakfast, yeah I went to mordor yeah exactly, yeah,

0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.880
<v Speaker 2>thank you, you're welcome. The first sleep was often called

0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.920
<v Speaker 2>something like first sleep, duh or dead sleep.

0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:19.640
<v Speaker 4>Oh well.

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.840
<v Speaker 2>The second was second sleep or morning sleep. Oh, interesting,

0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:25.920
<v Speaker 2>and they were split pretty evenly. But I think it's

0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.240
<v Speaker 2>interesting dead sleep because that's when deep sleep, deep sleep

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:29.880
<v Speaker 2>is happening. We learned last episode.

0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:30.520
<v Speaker 3>We check it out.

0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.920
<v Speaker 2>If we did, we did, and the intervening break was

0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.720
<v Speaker 2>referred to as watch or watching. In the Canterbury Tales,

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.680
<v Speaker 2>a character sleeps soon after evening fell and woke up

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.520
<v Speaker 2>in the early morning after her first sleep. And then

0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.120
<v Speaker 2>there was a sixteenth century book called a Treatise of Ghosts.

0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.360
<v Speaker 4>Which like why, I want to know more and more?

0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:55.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that refers to quote about midnight when a man wakes.

0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:55.880
<v Speaker 4>From his first sleep.

0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 3>Interesting.

0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:58.839
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Even medical books made reference to first and second sleeps.

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.320
<v Speaker 2>They recommended that on your first sleep you lay on

0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.680
<v Speaker 2>your right side, and on your second sleep lay on

0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:08.320
<v Speaker 2>your left side.

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.040
<v Speaker 4>I don't know why, I don't. So typical of a

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:13.240
<v Speaker 4>medical textbook to be.

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Like, this is what must be done. You have to

0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 2>do this, yes on what I know?

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:18.840
<v Speaker 4>I know it's your feelings.

0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:23.080
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, sorry, I just we know based on science, we

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:28.160
<v Speaker 6>know period the end, okay, But waking up in the

0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 6>middle of the night, it seems to have been like

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:30.480
<v Speaker 6>a routine thing.

0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you woke up at two am. Nowadays,

0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 2>would you be like, oh, okay, well I've gotten my

0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.960
<v Speaker 2>first sleep, might as well do some dusting and sock mending.

0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.920
<v Speaker 3>Sock mending, no one does. Wouldn't know where to begin.

0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:43.600
<v Speaker 4>I doubt it.

0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know how to sock mend. But that

0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.320
<v Speaker 2>is exactly what it seems like many people used to do.

0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Maybe they would lay in quiet reflection, they would get

0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.240
<v Speaker 2>up to use the bathroom, they would smoke a pipe,

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.520
<v Speaker 2>they would start some bread dough, do the washing, even

0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:56.480
<v Speaker 2>visit neighbors.

0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.680
<v Speaker 5>I'm sorry, the idea of starting bread dough is genius,

0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.600
<v Speaker 5>I know, right, Like I could have biscuits every morning,

0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.680
<v Speaker 5>and if I just had a double two sleep regimen, yep,

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.560
<v Speaker 5>I might be changing my life after this episode.

0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:07.240
<v Speaker 4>I think you could.

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 2>I think you are entitled to do that, okay. A

0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.120
<v Speaker 2>text from the seventeen hundred says that students should study

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 2>after the first sleep so they're more refreshed, which sounds like.

0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:19.640
<v Speaker 4>A literal nightmare.

0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:25.000
<v Speaker 2>It's not happening, no, no, no, so side note, though,

0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.520
<v Speaker 2>segmented sleep might help explain why today many people have

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.680
<v Speaker 2>sleep maintenance insomnia, where you wake.

0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 4>Up in the middle of the night and you're like,

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:32.840
<v Speaker 4>I can't fall back into sleep.

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 2>It's like might be a remnant. People think it's a

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 2>remnant of segmented sleep.

0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 4>I love this.

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 3>I know I'm gonna have so much more to say

0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:40.400
<v Speaker 3>about this.

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Eluginary origins of sleep disorders. Okay, so these by phasic sleepers,

0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.000
<v Speaker 2>were they going to bed super early in order to

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:49.000
<v Speaker 2>get all the sleep?

0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 4>It doesn't seem like it, Okay.

0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.760
<v Speaker 2>I think there's this idea that like, oh, suns down,

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.680
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do but sleep, right in the olden days,

0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.200
<v Speaker 2>and it's possible that some people could not afford the

0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 2>same amount of can or oil lamps as the wealthier classes.

0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 4>But like you, most people had a hearth to provide light, and.

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.400
<v Speaker 2>So you could like read, you could you had to

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 2>take care of your entire home mending, spinning, read, praying,

0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>other activities by the fireplace. We humans, we are a

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 2>social species, and so there was also socializing at taverns

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 2>or gathering halls or just at your neighbor's house. So

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.800
<v Speaker 2>this is a painting from the eighteen hundreds called Evening

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.080
<v Speaker 2>in the Village, and it's like it shows kind of

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 2>like this is what evening was like there was. It

0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.640
<v Speaker 2>was a boisterous time. Often it wasn't just like, oh

0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the sun's down, time to turn to turn out the lights.

0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's not like people stayed up all hours of

0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.920
<v Speaker 2>the night. They valued their sleep very much. Sleep was

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.080
<v Speaker 2>written about as like a peaceful respite from the worries

0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and the pain of waking life. A diary entry from

0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Sarah Cowper in the late seventeenth century said that, with

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.880
<v Speaker 2>few exceptions, quote, this family goes to bed between nine

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.480
<v Speaker 2>and ten. Yeah, okay, and then this I'm gonna get

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.280
<v Speaker 2>this and hang this in my house. There was an

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.280
<v Speaker 2>inscription over the parlor of a Danish pastor's like in yeah,

0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.040
<v Speaker 2>over his parlor in his room, from in the house

0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>of a Danish pastor and from around the same time,

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:19.360
<v Speaker 2>late seventeenth century that said stay till nine you are

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 2>my friend. Till ten that is all right, But if

0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.720
<v Speaker 2>you stay till eleven you are my enemy.

0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.399
<v Speaker 4>I love that so much. It's like you got it

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 4>go please like you you don't know how quickly yes

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:33.480
<v Speaker 4>this could turn.

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.000
<v Speaker 2>There is an Italian proverb bed is a medicine, and

0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.159
<v Speaker 2>another proverb that was one hour's sleep before midnight is

0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:49.000
<v Speaker 2>worth three after fascinating, And there's a Welsh saying that

0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.000
<v Speaker 2>men thrive by sleep, not long but deep.

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:53.720
<v Speaker 4>What is long?

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:54.760
<v Speaker 5>Like?

0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Recommendations on how much sleep to get back then, you know,

0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 2>historically varied but echo a lot of what we hear today. Okay,

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.640
<v Speaker 2>six to eight hours is usually what I've seen. Eight

0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.320
<v Speaker 2>during the summer and nine during the winter. One guy

0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.159
<v Speaker 2>recommended a mere three, and you can always you can

0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.520
<v Speaker 2>already see them moralizing in another guy's belief that quote

0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:19.640
<v Speaker 2>nature requires five, custom takes seven, laziness nine, and wickedness eleven.

0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:25.199
<v Speaker 4>Oh mg, Like, calm down, like dude, it's sleep, bro

0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:26.240
<v Speaker 4>It's okay.

0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.800
<v Speaker 2>But it seems clear that unless you were in the

0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.120
<v Speaker 2>wealthier classes, you were lucky to get seven hours of sleep. Okay,

0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.679
<v Speaker 2>that was like a pretty like a norm, okay, and

0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:38.679
<v Speaker 2>everyone seemed to do the most that they could to

0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.680
<v Speaker 2>make their sleep as RESTful as possible. By the sixteenth century,

0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the bed became the most expensive piece of furniture.

0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:46.480
<v Speaker 4>In the home.

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, yep ornate softer ornamented with pillows, the first

0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.760
<v Speaker 2>thing that newlyweds bought, and the most desirable item in

0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:56.160
<v Speaker 2>a will.

0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.919
<v Speaker 4>Like if you were left the bed, you were the

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 4>first favorite child around me.

0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.440
<v Speaker 3>Nephew, yep, Oh wow, that's fun.

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.040
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, who's gonna get the bed?

0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.879
<v Speaker 2>Who's gonna get the bed? Bedtime ritual was also a

0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.000
<v Speaker 2>big deal. It might involve removing flies or lice or

0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.000
<v Speaker 2>bedbugs from bedding and clothes. Like, there's another painting that

0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.240
<v Speaker 2>I didn't put in here, but it's I'll show you.

0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 4>It's very cute.

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.040
<v Speaker 2>It has like they're hunting for either fleas or bedbugs

0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:22.800
<v Speaker 2>or whatever.

0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 3>Around the bed, around the bed.

0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the beds were warmed with hot coals or stones

0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 2>wrapped in rags. Windows were shuttered, and curtains were drawn.

0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.800
<v Speaker 2>You washed your feet, you combed your hair, and you

0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.480
<v Speaker 2>set out or had your servants set out your chamber pot.

0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.320
<v Speaker 2>You donned your nightgown and nightcap if you could afford

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.080
<v Speaker 2>one to avoid catching your death from the cold. And

0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.359
<v Speaker 2>maybe you had a little dream of whiskey or a

0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.200
<v Speaker 2>few drops of laudanum to help.

0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.520
<v Speaker 4>You sleep on the way back then all the way

0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:54.080
<v Speaker 4>back then.

0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.240
<v Speaker 2>And finally, the head of the household would lead everyone

0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.240
<v Speaker 2>in nighttime prayers. It seems like a recipe for a

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.400
<v Speaker 2>really wonderful, RESTful sleep, right, Like everyone was gonna get

0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 2>really great sleep. I'm obviously leading you to say no,

0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.639
<v Speaker 2>I can guess no. I mean, like they must have

0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.040
<v Speaker 2>slept so much better than today, with like our screens

0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:17.240
<v Speaker 2>and our stressful jobs.

0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but also they're picking lace out of their bed

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.760
<v Speaker 5>bro exactly, yeah, exactly, men.

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.199
<v Speaker 4>Their beds are made of what like hey, if you

0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:26.680
<v Speaker 4>even had that right? Yeah.

0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Many descriptions of sleep from this era use words like

0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 2>restless or troubled. People across the board were less healthy

0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 2>than we are today. Trying to get a good night's

0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:37.600
<v Speaker 2>sleep when you're sick, or you're injured, or you have

0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.280
<v Speaker 2>a chronic disease, it can be really challenging. There's a

0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 2>painting by the artist William Hogarth from seventeen fifty called

0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.840
<v Speaker 2>Francis Matthew Shuts in his Bed. It features a man

0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.720
<v Speaker 2>sitting up in his bed vomiting into a chamber pot, Like,

0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>was he commissioned to paint this?

0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:56.359
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.919
<v Speaker 2>I love that he like Francis Matthew Shuts, was like,

0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.919
<v Speaker 2>please paint a painting of hatred.

0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.119
<v Speaker 5>I'm gonna pay barfing Yeah yeah, I mean we had

0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:08.080
<v Speaker 5>a barf bowl growing up next to we had a

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:08.719
<v Speaker 5>barf bucket.

0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I hated it. But even the sight of it,

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.960
<v Speaker 2>it was a popcorn bowl. That's a no. No, I

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.200
<v Speaker 2>don't like that very much.

0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:19.600
<v Speaker 4>No, thank you.

0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:21.760
<v Speaker 3>Oh maybe I shouldn't mention that.

0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.720
<v Speaker 4>It's in there. We are not cutting that, sorry, mom.

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.359
<v Speaker 2>But France is here. He was lucky to have his

0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 2>own bed. Yeah, many many it was a It was

0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.440
<v Speaker 2>a rare luxury. Many of the poor classes couldn't afford

0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:37.960
<v Speaker 2>good blankets or comfortable beds, and so the whole family

0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.560
<v Speaker 2>would sleep in one bed, sometimes with animals.

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:42.560
<v Speaker 4>Not a great way to get sound sleep.

0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, my dog sleeps in my bed, and he's

0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:46.440
<v Speaker 2>sometimes really a lot.

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:48.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, Oh my gosh. If the cat or the dog

0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 5>gets in there, it's a disaster. Though the toddler is

0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:53.560
<v Speaker 5>the worst, I will say, I love him.

0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.760
<v Speaker 4>I believe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.400
<v Speaker 2>And this is also like the fact that people people

0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.399
<v Speaker 2>did not get sleep is evidenced by frequent references to

0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:03.359
<v Speaker 2>daytime napping.

0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 4>Ah.

0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.480
<v Speaker 2>And I think that people did probably get RESTful sleep

0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.399
<v Speaker 2>from time to time. But I think that, you know,

0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:14.080
<v Speaker 2>like we've talked about with the Food of yesteryear, people

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:18.159
<v Speaker 2>tend to romanticize sleep in the past, like oh before

0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.400
<v Speaker 2>screens before social media, before this, and that there must

0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 2>have been such unbroken You just had so many hours

0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:24.720
<v Speaker 2>a night to sleep.

0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:25.760
<v Speaker 3>What else were you going to do?

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.679
<v Speaker 2>Right, And it sues that's not the case. But with

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.199
<v Speaker 2>the Industrial Revolution and the introduction of artificial light, shift

0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:35.920
<v Speaker 2>work well lit streets, and the growth of cities and

0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:40.200
<v Speaker 2>nighttime entertainment and socializing, segmented sleep began to fade from

0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.119
<v Speaker 2>memory interesting, and by the turn of the twentieth century

0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.679
<v Speaker 2>it was a relic of the past, Like Stevenson was like,

0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.720
<v Speaker 2>I've never heard of this, that's common in the countryside.

0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.280
<v Speaker 2>And then that just started to slowly fade more and

0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.840
<v Speaker 2>more and more. How interesting, and this eight eight eight

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:56.480
<v Speaker 2>rule became dominant.

0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.000
<v Speaker 4>Eight hours for work, eight for sleep, eight for yourself.

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.280
<v Speaker 2>That was after shifts kind of shrank from like twelve

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:03.919
<v Speaker 2>to eight, twelve to eight. And then it was like,

0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>I honestly I tried to find like more of an

0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.280
<v Speaker 2>origin than that, Like, was there a scientific guidance that

0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 2>led with this eight eight eight, And I don't. I

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.239
<v Speaker 2>don't think that there was, Okay, I think it was

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 2>just like this seems like a nice.

0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:19.520
<v Speaker 4>Easy division, Okay.

0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so it was really only much later, like

0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:25.399
<v Speaker 2>we forgot about segmented sleep, and it was only in

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.200
<v Speaker 2>the nineties and two thousands that people kind of rediscovered it.

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.160
<v Speaker 5>Do we know if when people were getting segmented sleep,

0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:34.080
<v Speaker 5>how many total hours they were getting?

0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:35.080
<v Speaker 4>Well, that's what I think.

0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:38.760
<v Speaker 2>I think it was around six, like seven, six to seven, set,

0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:39.280
<v Speaker 2>six to.

0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:40.160
<v Speaker 4>Eight, okay, roughly?

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:40.320
<v Speaker 5>Ok?

0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was just like hurts a lot,

0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.720
<v Speaker 2>it was broken up, right, yeah, yeah, but yeah. So

0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.520
<v Speaker 2>in the nineties and two thousands is when this idea

0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.600
<v Speaker 2>of segmented sleep kind of returned, ok the surface with

0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:57.280
<v Speaker 2>work especially by Roger Ekirch two thousand and five book

0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:59.880
<v Speaker 2>At Day's Close, and there's like an earlier paper two

0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Seek we have.

0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 4>Lost I think.

0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:05.639
<v Speaker 2>And so then these this research led a lot of

0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.879
<v Speaker 2>people to wonder, you know, is segmented sleep the true

0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:11.879
<v Speaker 2>ideal for humans? Has it just been stolen from us

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:13.640
<v Speaker 2>by industry and artificial light?

0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:15.560
<v Speaker 4>Should we be sleeping in chunks?

0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:16.040
<v Speaker 3>Should we?

0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:16.600
<v Speaker 4>Should we?

0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:17.040
<v Speaker 3>Should we?

0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.480
<v Speaker 4>The answer is yes, and the answer is no.

0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it seems clear based on a wealth of

0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.920
<v Speaker 2>historical evidence that segmented sleep and daytime napping was commonplace

0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 2>throughout much of pre industrial Europe, and in the nineteen nineties,

0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:38.119
<v Speaker 2>research psychiatrist Thomas Weir conducted an experiment where he deprived

0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 2>people of artificial light at night for a few weeks,

0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:43.960
<v Speaker 2>over which time their sleep did become segmented.

0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:45.520
<v Speaker 3>I saw that. I saw that people lay in.

0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Bed for a bit, sleep for four hours, wake for

0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 2>a couple and sleep for another four Yeah, but is

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:52.400
<v Speaker 2>it universal segmented sleep?

0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:55.280
<v Speaker 4>What about among humans? Among humans? Yeah?

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:58.760
<v Speaker 2>What about quote you know pre industrial societies today, like

0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:02.680
<v Speaker 2>certain hunter gatherers or a hunter horticulturalist groups, do they

0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:03.680
<v Speaker 2>have by phasic sleep?

0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:06.080
<v Speaker 4>Do they? Research is mixed.

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Some groups do seem to have segmented sleep, while others

0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:13.360
<v Speaker 2>include So the ones that were studied in this one

0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:16.320
<v Speaker 2>paper that I read were living in Namibia, Tanzania, and Bolivia,

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:20.880
<v Speaker 2>so like quite distributory globally. Yep, they don't show any

0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.000
<v Speaker 2>segmented sleep or frequent napping.

0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:25.480
<v Speaker 5>Okay, So they're just sleeping in one chunk, one chunk,

0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:26.560
<v Speaker 5>how many hours be talking?

0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:26.800
<v Speaker 1>Hey?

0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:27.200
<v Speaker 4>Okay?

0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.600
<v Speaker 2>So there was a study in twenty fifteen by yeddish

0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:33.160
<v Speaker 2>at All and it was published that upset this assumption

0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:38.280
<v Speaker 2>that everyone used to sleep in segmented chunks. They found

0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 2>that the three groups that they observed slept on average

0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.600
<v Speaker 2>five point seven to seven point one hours of sleep.

0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:45.200
<v Speaker 3>Interesting.

0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:49.040
<v Speaker 2>People went to bed at varying hours, but woke up

0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:50.200
<v Speaker 2>roughly the same time.

0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:51.880
<v Speaker 3>Interesting, that they.

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.439
<v Speaker 2>Slept an hour longer in the winter than in summer,

0:25:55.600 --> 0:25:58.640
<v Speaker 2>and that they stayed up about three hours after the sunset.

0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:00.399
<v Speaker 5>Okay, so that's why they're getting a little more in

0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:01.840
<v Speaker 5>winter because of some I'm going down a little earlier,

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:02.680
<v Speaker 5>down a little earlier.

0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:07.399
<v Speaker 2>Much of those evening hours were spent socializing, and people

0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.960
<v Speaker 2>stayed up as long as they found something interesting going

0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:12.720
<v Speaker 2>on or they wanted to participate in, like storytelling or

0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:15.560
<v Speaker 2>singing or whatever it was. If they went to bed

0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:18.600
<v Speaker 2>and something caught their attention, they would get back up, okay,

0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 2>like they you know, oh i'm gonna I'm not going

0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:23.760
<v Speaker 2>to sleep yet. There was no enforced bedtime for children. Interesting,

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:26.800
<v Speaker 2>nor was there shushing if people were loud while others slept, Like,

0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:28.600
<v Speaker 2>there was no anxiety about like you're going to wear

0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:29.439
<v Speaker 2>them up.

0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:31.800
<v Speaker 4>They're sleeping. It's their sleep time. Interesting, Okay.

0:26:32.680 --> 0:26:35.320
<v Speaker 2>And it's important to remember that these you know, small

0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:39.880
<v Speaker 2>scale subsistence societies they're not living history, right, but they

0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:43.440
<v Speaker 2>along with these historical sleep analyzes, can provide some interesting

0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 2>insights into the effects of industrialization on sleep, insights which

0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:52.120
<v Speaker 2>I think force us to question some of our current assumptions,

0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:57.200
<v Speaker 2>like artificial light negatively affecting sleep duration. If pre industrial

0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:00.320
<v Speaker 2>societies living without artificial light or sleeping five point seven

0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:02.840
<v Speaker 2>to seven hours a night, what does that mean for

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 2>artificial light? Is that the problem? Is it a contributing problem?

0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Is it a problem in some situations and not others?

0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:13.480
<v Speaker 2>But there's these like blanket statements that like it is evil, yeah,

0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:17.360
<v Speaker 2>and it's just are destroying You're destroying your sleep?

0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:18.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, maybe they are.

0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:21.119
<v Speaker 2>Is it the screens or is it the content that

0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:27.520
<v Speaker 2>you're doing? We talked about that scroll. But if we

0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:32.440
<v Speaker 2>are sleeping similar amounts as pre industrial societies, both historical

0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:34.639
<v Speaker 2>and modern, what's the issue? Like?

0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:36.600
<v Speaker 4>Are we all sleep deprived?

0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Have we as a species been sleep deprived for millennia?

0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:44.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, but like really maybe? I mean, when you

0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:47.600
<v Speaker 2>consider what we know about sleep in humans, segmented, non

0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:50.359
<v Speaker 2>segmented go to beds soon after sunset or later in

0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:54.320
<v Speaker 2>the evening. There's one thing, there's one rule that comes out.

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:57.840
<v Speaker 2>We are predictably unpredictable sleepers.

0:27:58.800 --> 0:27:59.240
<v Speaker 4>That's it.

0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Flexibility is built into our sleep, especially when it comes

0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:07.600
<v Speaker 2>to sleep timing, and that is key to what makes

0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:08.119
<v Speaker 2>us human.

0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:11.000
<v Speaker 4>Oh yes, okay.

0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Over our species evolutionary history. We spent those evening hours socializing, storytelling,

0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:22.959
<v Speaker 2>exchanging ideas, building relationships, philosophizing, becoming more human. Research has

0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:26.159
<v Speaker 2>shown that the topics of nighttime conversations tend to be

0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:27.920
<v Speaker 2>more abstract and creative.

0:28:28.200 --> 0:28:30.919
<v Speaker 4>Oh, that's so weird and interesting.

0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:33.080
<v Speaker 2>Using things like storytelling. I mean, like think about when

0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:34.280
<v Speaker 2>you're like sitting around a fire.

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:37.480
<v Speaker 5>Right, the weirder things get the longer you're awake. Huh,

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:39.880
<v Speaker 5>even when there's not alcohol.

0:28:39.520 --> 0:28:44.280
<v Speaker 2>Involves even but during the day, the topics are more

0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:47.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, they are more like practical immediate concerns.

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:49.520
<v Speaker 4>How do we solve this problem? Right now?

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:50.760
<v Speaker 3>What are we going to eat for dinner?

0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:54.240
<v Speaker 4>Exactly? Not like what does dinner mean?

0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:55.920
<v Speaker 3>What is the meaning of life?

0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:59.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.360
<v Speaker 2>And maybe in the winter months we wanted to turn

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:04.720
<v Speaker 2>in early, and in the cool summer evenings we hut

0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:07.800
<v Speaker 2>around a fire. We stay up late one night and

0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:11.200
<v Speaker 2>squeeze in a nap the next day. We have different chronotypes.

0:29:11.240 --> 0:29:14.000
<v Speaker 2>We have daylarks and night owls. This is probably a

0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>part of this. It was beneficial to have people sleeping

0:29:17.040 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 2>and awake at times offset from one another in continuous

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:26.120
<v Speaker 2>predator watch, childcare things like that. As a species, as individuals,

0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:31.040
<v Speaker 2>we are flexible sleepers, but that flexibility is no longer

0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:34.840
<v Speaker 2>serving us well because we live in an inflexible society.

0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:37.560
<v Speaker 5>You have to be at school at seven twenty am

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 5>or you're getting a tarty slip yep.

0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:42.840
<v Speaker 2>And this in the society, we are also constantly told

0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and constantly feel that we are not getting enough sleep,

0:29:46.200 --> 0:29:49.200
<v Speaker 2>that it is the source of all of our mental

0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>and physical health issues, and we need to prioritize sleep.

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Even though many of us work eight to five or

0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>longer and need to commute and need to find time

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:00.720
<v Speaker 2>for family and friends and self care and healthy home

0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:03.320
<v Speaker 2>cooking and exercise and taxes and home maintenance and a

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:06.840
<v Speaker 2>second job, sleep is often the first thing to go,

0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 2>especially since sleeping long hours is seen.

0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:11.560
<v Speaker 4>As such a moral failing.

0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.600
<v Speaker 2>It is yeah so Echoing the tech bros of today

0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:16.720
<v Speaker 2>was Thomas Edison, who wrote at the turn of the

0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>twentieth century quote most people over sleep one hundred percent

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:23.760
<v Speaker 2>because they like it that extra.

0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:29.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, dare you like it to sleep? Oh my god,

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 4>that extra.

0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>One makes them unhealthy and inefficient. For myself, I never

0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 2>found need of more than four or five hours sleep

0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:44.080
<v Speaker 2>in the twenty four I never dream it's real sleep. Like,

0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:48.600
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, Edison, I know, I know. We are

0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:51.800
<v Speaker 2>always hearing people talk about loss of sleep as a calamity.

0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:55.680
<v Speaker 2>They better call it loss of time, vitality and opportunities.

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:58.520
<v Speaker 4>God, yeah, I'm so over him.

0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, but the thing is he had cots in every

0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:04.560
<v Speaker 2>room of his office building so he can do it.

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:05.360
<v Speaker 4>All the time.

0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:08.040
<v Speaker 5>Are you serious? Because he was only sleeping four or

0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:09.320
<v Speaker 5>five hours a night, bro.

0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, and he was getting the other four or five

0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:13.680
<v Speaker 2>around his office.

0:31:14.600 --> 0:31:15.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:31:15.480 --> 0:31:18.760
<v Speaker 2>But it is like that sentiment is such an American

0:31:19.160 --> 0:31:22.920
<v Speaker 2>business industrial sentiment with Protestant roots, Like if you aren't

0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:25.560
<v Speaker 2>working or praying, your commuting with the double for sure.

0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:31.800
<v Speaker 2>There's so much toxicity surrounding competitive sleeplessness, like oh, I

0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:34.600
<v Speaker 2>only need to get this many hours, And I think

0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:39.240
<v Speaker 2>that sacrificing sleep has not only become normalized but idealized,

0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Like we can function on this, But what is the

0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 2>truth is that we are set to fail right from

0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.120
<v Speaker 2>the beginning. Who genuinely feels most days that they are

0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:52.040
<v Speaker 2>getting enough sleep and have enough time to do everything

0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:54.520
<v Speaker 2>that they want and need to do, all while not

0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:56.080
<v Speaker 2>feeling utterly exhausted.

0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:59.040
<v Speaker 4>No one, does anyone feel that way?

0:31:59.360 --> 0:31:59.960
<v Speaker 3>Someone might.

0:32:01.400 --> 0:32:04.280
<v Speaker 2>The medicalization of sleep, where sleep became an object to

0:32:04.280 --> 0:32:08.160
<v Speaker 2>be managed or optimized or treated, rather than the restorative

0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 2>process it once was. This happened over the course of

0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:15.200
<v Speaker 2>the Industrial Revolution, and it is in full swing today.

0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.480
<v Speaker 2>During the eighteen hundreds, sleep grew more interesting to those

0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:24.120
<v Speaker 2>titans of industry who wanted to maximize worker productivity and sleep. Capitalism, labor,

0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and medicine all became intertwined. Medical discussions of sleep took

0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:31.280
<v Speaker 2>on a more industrial tone. So it would be like,

0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:33.880
<v Speaker 2>the more act of the mind, the greater the necessity

0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:36.560
<v Speaker 2>for sleep. Just as with a steamer, the greater the

0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:39.680
<v Speaker 2>number of revolutions the engine makes, the more imperative is

0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:45.920
<v Speaker 2>the demand for fuel. Okay, it's like, let's talk about trains, steamers.

0:32:45.400 --> 0:32:48.320
<v Speaker 4>Whatever, because that's what we are. Machines. Yeah.

0:32:48.400 --> 0:32:49.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Sleep transformed from a personal issue to a matter of

0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.600
<v Speaker 2>public health, something unruly to be brought to heal. Interesting

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.520
<v Speaker 2>you're staying up too late, you're sleeping in too long,

0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:03.440
<v Speaker 2>you are going to bed too early, You're wasting It's

0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:06.600
<v Speaker 2>the video games, it's the cell phones, it's the you know,

0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:07.240
<v Speaker 2>the books.

0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 4>Oh, the books.

0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, although I do I have stayed up way

0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:12.520
<v Speaker 2>too late reading books.

0:33:12.560 --> 0:33:14.280
<v Speaker 3>Okay, but when they're really good, you have to.

0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:18.880
<v Speaker 2>And then with the development of the EEG in the

0:33:18.920 --> 0:33:22.800
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirties, it became something that you could objectively measure.

0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 2>You could assess sleep duration before, of course, but like

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:30.600
<v Speaker 2>this was a whole new dimension, and with that came conflict.

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:34.840
<v Speaker 2>How do you determine sleep quality? Is it based on

0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:38.240
<v Speaker 2>the EEG or how well rested someone feels? Is it

0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:41.200
<v Speaker 2>based on their duration or whether they feel like they

0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:42.000
<v Speaker 2>got enough sleep?

0:33:42.920 --> 0:33:43.360
<v Speaker 4>How do you.

0:33:43.280 --> 0:33:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Define insomnia sleeping less than the recommended amount, or wanting

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 2>to sleep more but not being able. To the medicalization

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:54.640
<v Speaker 2>of sleep, which continued over the twentieth century, it led

0:33:54.680 --> 0:34:00.440
<v Speaker 2>to this very narrow picture of normal sleep, and with

0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:04.640
<v Speaker 2>that in place, medicine could now number one identify pathological

0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:09.560
<v Speaker 2>deviations from that norm, and two develop treatments or therapies

0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:13.840
<v Speaker 2>with the aim of returning someone to quote unquote normal sleep.

0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:17.760
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, the EEG had shown a sleeping

0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:21.839
<v Speaker 2>person to be really a world unto themselves, not influenced

0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:26.520
<v Speaker 2>by environmental stimuli, meaning that interventions needed to be at

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the personal level. They were someone's personal responsibility.

0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:32.799
<v Speaker 4>Ah, this is a you problem. It's a problem. It's

0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:33.960
<v Speaker 4>not an US problem.

0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:37.600
<v Speaker 2>Forget the inflexible eight to five. Forget capitalism wanting to

0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:40.440
<v Speaker 2>extract every drop of productivity out of their workers. Forget

0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:44.480
<v Speaker 2>the moralizing over too much sleep, Forget the extremely narrow

0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:47.399
<v Speaker 2>definition of what ordered sleep feels like. If you don't

0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:50.040
<v Speaker 2>fit that picture, you either need to change something about

0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:53.080
<v Speaker 2>yourself or get a special lamp or take meds or something.

0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:54.040
<v Speaker 4>But it is you.

0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:55.080
<v Speaker 3>It is on you.

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And the sad reality is that society is unlikely

0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:03.560
<v Speaker 2>to change to accommodate human sleep flexibility, the non pathogenic

0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:05.400
<v Speaker 2>variation within our species.

0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:06.600
<v Speaker 4>We have variation.

0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:09.880
<v Speaker 2>It does not mean that you are wrong or broken

0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:13.120
<v Speaker 2>or disordered. Yes, and there is disordered sleep, oh, definitely,

0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:16.320
<v Speaker 2>not saying that there isn't. Yeah, But what I'm saying

0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:18.279
<v Speaker 2>is that like we have do we feel like we

0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:21.160
<v Speaker 2>have to fit ourselves into that rigid structure of going

0:35:21.160 --> 0:35:23.480
<v Speaker 2>to bed at ten waking up at six feeling super

0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:26.240
<v Speaker 2>well rested, not having any naps, because who needs naps?

0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:27.880
<v Speaker 4>Naps are for the lazy, right, I.

0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:29.400
<v Speaker 3>Can't wait to talk more about naps.

0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:32.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean they're also like I didn't get into this,

0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:34.120
<v Speaker 2>but there are like there was a big push for

0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:39.440
<v Speaker 2>certain companies to adopt like napping flexibility to increase productivity.

0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:45.000
<v Speaker 7>Of course, productivity, yeah, yeah, but also I think it

0:35:45.040 --> 0:35:48.240
<v Speaker 7>did have a relationship so much good data that allowing

0:35:48.600 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 7>increases productivity.

0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:54.360
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yes, just like working from home. Yeah.

0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:58.040
<v Speaker 2>But when we when we fail to get that solid

0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:02.480
<v Speaker 2>eight hours uninterrupted sleep, when we feel tired, when we

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.200
<v Speaker 2>struggle to fall asleep, we might feel like a failure.

0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And the medicalization of sleep has been a great thing, right.

0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:11.400
<v Speaker 2>It has helped us to diagnose and treat people who

0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:14.360
<v Speaker 2>are suffering from disordered sleep. It's allowed us to define

0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:18.839
<v Speaker 2>what disordered sleep is, and it gives people solutions when

0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:21.920
<v Speaker 2>they are especially desperate to actually get some sort of rest.

0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:25.000
<v Speaker 2>It's been a real lifesaver when it comes to sleep apnea,

0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:28.240
<v Speaker 2>for example. Huge It has helped us to better understand

0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 2>the negative consequences of sleep deprivation, which are very real

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:36.520
<v Speaker 2>and serious and the importance of getting adequate sleep, but

0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:39.360
<v Speaker 2>it has also given us this very narrow definition of

0:36:39.480 --> 0:36:45.200
<v Speaker 2>normal sleep, leading us to overpathologize and overtreat, especially with

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.560
<v Speaker 2>a direct to consumer marketing of sleep medications that convince

0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:51.320
<v Speaker 2>us that we're all over tired or not getting enough sleep.

0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.480
<v Speaker 2>What even is excessive daytime sleepiness?

0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 4>Anyway?

0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:56.520
<v Speaker 3>It actual definition?

0:36:57.000 --> 0:36:58.840
<v Speaker 2>I know that it does, but it's like the commercials

0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:01.160
<v Speaker 2>don't say what it is. They're just like, are you tired,

0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>yeah by this medication?

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:05.160
<v Speaker 4>Ask your doctor about Yeah?

0:37:05.320 --> 0:37:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, Yeah, I know, exactly, I know. And we start

0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:10.920
<v Speaker 2>our obsession with sleep from a very young age, Like

0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:13.840
<v Speaker 2>what proportion of kids books are about sleep and needing

0:37:13.840 --> 0:37:14.200
<v Speaker 2>to sleep?

0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:16.759
<v Speaker 5>I've read so many of them, so many Hello, I

0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:19.800
<v Speaker 5>was tracking my child's sleep yep, yeah yeah.

0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:23.680
<v Speaker 4>And so it consumes it's consumed.

0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:25.920
<v Speaker 5>The parents of newborns, especially right now because there's such

0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:27.920
<v Speaker 5>a marketplace, so there's such.

0:37:27.719 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 3>A baby's weak window, et cetera.

0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:32.800
<v Speaker 4>It makes me like viscerally upset.

0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think because sleep is and should be a

0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:41.560
<v Speaker 2>RESTful thing. It's a restorative process, but now it has

0:37:41.600 --> 0:37:45.120
<v Speaker 2>become a stressor rather than a stress reliever, and it

0:37:45.200 --> 0:37:47.880
<v Speaker 2>creates the cycle where the more that we worry about sleep,

0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 2>the worst sleep we get.

0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:50.600
<v Speaker 4>Yep. And it's clear that.

0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Many people around the world struggle with sleep, myself included.

0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:56.759
<v Speaker 2>And maybe those issues are the result of our genetics,

0:37:56.760 --> 0:37:59.640
<v Speaker 2>our individual choices, our life stage, our stress levels, are

0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:03.439
<v Speaker 2>inflex society, or all of the above. But I feel

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.319
<v Speaker 2>like one thing that I really took away from this

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:10.120
<v Speaker 2>and found helpful is that achieving society's definition of ideal sleep.

0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:14.680
<v Speaker 2>Quote it night after night after night. It's probably a

0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:20.839
<v Speaker 2>losing battle. And variation is normal. It is the norm.

0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:24.759
<v Speaker 2>The average is not necessarily the ideal. Just like how

0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:28.160
<v Speaker 2>few people actually have twenty eight day menstrual cycles? Who

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:30.919
<v Speaker 2>actually gets eight hours of sleep on average a night

0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:33.759
<v Speaker 2>with this much deep sleep and this much rem and

0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:36.440
<v Speaker 2>so on and so forth erin maybe you'll tell me

0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:41.360
<v Speaker 2>the answer, Well, no, Well tell.

0:38:41.239 --> 0:38:42.240
<v Speaker 4>Me some things anyway.

0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:47.000
<v Speaker 5>I can't wait to especially to get more into naps

0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:49.680
<v Speaker 5>and split sleep and how we define good What is

0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:50.720
<v Speaker 5>quality sleep?

0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:53.360
<v Speaker 4>What is it? Let me tell you? Who gets to

0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:53.759
<v Speaker 4>say that?

0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:54.960
<v Speaker 3>Let me tell you.

0:38:56.040 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 5>Okay, Since the nineteen eighties, it's estimated that, on average

0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:22.400
<v Speaker 5>in the US, sleep duration has declined from closer to

0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:24.960
<v Speaker 5>an average of seven and a half hours per night

0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:29.040
<v Speaker 5>to just over seven hours, so we've lost half an

0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:33.320
<v Speaker 5>hour of sleep in that same time period. The prevalence

0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:37.399
<v Speaker 5>of adults who report sleeping less than six hours per

0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:41.239
<v Speaker 5>night has increased from twenty two percent to thirty two

0:39:41.320 --> 0:39:45.319
<v Speaker 5>percent between nineteen eighty five and twenty seventeen. So more

0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:47.920
<v Speaker 5>people are sleeping less than six hours a night, and

0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:50.960
<v Speaker 5>on average, we're sleeping thirty minutes less than we used to.

0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:55.440
<v Speaker 5>And like you mentioned at the top, as of twenty twelve,

0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:59.000
<v Speaker 5>at least it's estimated that between fifty and seventy million Americans,

0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 5>which if you extraply that out globally, is billions of

0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:04.480
<v Speaker 5>people worldwide are estimated to have some type of chronic

0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:10.640
<v Speaker 5>sleep disorder. But is that true globally, I don't know,

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:14.720
<v Speaker 5>because there was a paper from the UK that actually

0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:18.799
<v Speaker 5>suggested that we haven't changed or at least there they

0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:21.440
<v Speaker 5>haven't really changed much in their sleep duration between the

0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:25.759
<v Speaker 5>nineteen seventies and now. If anything, sleep duration maybe increased

0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:28.399
<v Speaker 5>by a few minutes on average, what is that sleep

0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:30.680
<v Speaker 5>duration around that seven and a half hour mark, seven

0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:32.040
<v Speaker 5>and a half still around that seven and a half

0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:34.920
<v Speaker 5>hour mark, but studies out of Finland and Sweden are

0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.120
<v Speaker 5>slightly more in line with US numbers that maybe over

0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:40.040
<v Speaker 5>the last thirty forty years we've lost a few minutes

0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 5>of sleep on average per night. Sleep duration is getting

0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:46.439
<v Speaker 5>quote unquote worse rather than quote unquote better. Now, there

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:49.319
<v Speaker 5>is no doubt, and I don't want to under emphasize this,

0:40:49.560 --> 0:40:53.759
<v Speaker 5>that there are substantial individual and public health consequences of

0:40:53.760 --> 0:40:54.560
<v Speaker 5>a lack of sleep.

0:40:54.640 --> 0:40:55.279
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely.

0:40:55.520 --> 0:40:57.919
<v Speaker 5>So you were asking, like, what do we like, why

0:40:58.040 --> 0:41:00.920
<v Speaker 5>is this eight hours? Why is this and magic number?

0:41:01.280 --> 0:41:05.040
<v Speaker 5>It's really I think it mostly comes from the data

0:41:05.080 --> 0:41:08.719
<v Speaker 5>that we have that when people get consistently less than

0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:13.560
<v Speaker 5>seven hours of sleep per night, they have some negative

0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:16.560
<v Speaker 5>consequences in both the short term and the long term.

0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:20.040
<v Speaker 5>But this is a U shaped curve, so we see

0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:23.080
<v Speaker 5>that people who are consistently sleeping less than seven hours

0:41:23.560 --> 0:41:28.160
<v Speaker 5>or more than eight or nine hours all have long

0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:29.800
<v Speaker 5>term health consequences.

0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:34.080
<v Speaker 2>But Aaron like, what about what is normal for one person?

0:41:34.840 --> 0:41:37.480
<v Speaker 4>You know what I mean, It's going to depends exactly.

0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:39.719
<v Speaker 5>And that's why it's always also arranged like it is

0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:41.960
<v Speaker 5>all of the literatures like it is arranged. Oh, I know,

0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:44.640
<v Speaker 5>And it's a lot of the data on like people

0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:46.880
<v Speaker 5>who are getting short duration sleep, the people who are

0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:50.360
<v Speaker 5>getting short sleep are actually usually getting less than five hours,

0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 5>even though they then lump them with people who are

0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:56.560
<v Speaker 5>getting less than seven hours. If that makes sense, Yes,

0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:59.040
<v Speaker 5>so they get lumped together as this less than seven hours,

0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:01.479
<v Speaker 5>but most of them actually getting less than five.

0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:05.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I okay, I understand all that, but it

0:42:06.080 --> 0:42:09.840
<v Speaker 2>like it again, we are like a last episode, you

0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:13.560
<v Speaker 2>talked about how how much sleep one individual person needs

0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:16.440
<v Speaker 2>is highly variable and is very an individual the lifetime

0:42:16.480 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 2>and lifetime and blah blah blah. But we're still making

0:42:18.800 --> 0:42:21.839
<v Speaker 2>as like these public health guidelines that are like, if

0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:24.320
<v Speaker 2>you are getting more than eight or nine hours of sleep,

0:42:24.440 --> 0:42:27.239
<v Speaker 2>that's bad for you. But what if someone like there

0:42:27.239 --> 0:42:29.839
<v Speaker 2>are people who is that what they need well at

0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:31.880
<v Speaker 2>an individual level or in their life stage.

0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:35.000
<v Speaker 5>That's also that also is we think that a lot

0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:37.160
<v Speaker 5>of that, especially when it comes to long sleep, like

0:42:37.160 --> 0:42:39.840
<v Speaker 5>people who are sleeping longer than nine hours on average,

0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.160
<v Speaker 5>is that actually reverse causation. Is there something going on

0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:46.880
<v Speaker 5>that is a health consequence and the sleep is a

0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:51.040
<v Speaker 5>consequence of that health like problem or whatever, rather than

0:42:51.120 --> 0:42:54.600
<v Speaker 5>the sleep being the causes of any of these health problems. Yeah,

0:42:55.120 --> 0:42:58.279
<v Speaker 5>so we don't really know, but there has even been

0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:00.759
<v Speaker 5>studies that have shown just an increase risk of all

0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:03.680
<v Speaker 5>cause mortality with sleep less than five hours and with

0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:04.960
<v Speaker 5>sleep more than nine hours.

0:43:05.080 --> 0:43:06.920
<v Speaker 4>I mean less than five is very short.

0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:09.600
<v Speaker 5>It's very short exactly, but again they often lump it

0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:12.520
<v Speaker 5>is less than seven or less than five, so they

0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:14.719
<v Speaker 5>like in these studies, they kind of cruit them in.

0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:15.960
<v Speaker 4>That way, big boxes.

0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:21.080
<v Speaker 5>Acutely, we know that twenty four hours of sleep deprivation

0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:23.799
<v Speaker 5>is equivalent to a blood alcohol level of like one

0:43:23.880 --> 0:43:25.960
<v Speaker 5>hundred milligrams per DESTO leader, which is like a point

0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:28.840
<v Speaker 5>one on a breathalyzer. A reminder that legal limit in

0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:31.200
<v Speaker 5>the US is point eight, and you are impaired at

0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:34.680
<v Speaker 5>like point oh five for the most part. But the

0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:38.359
<v Speaker 5>long term effects are also very serious. So I want

0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:40.200
<v Speaker 5>to kind of get into a little bit of what

0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:42.560
<v Speaker 5>we see these like, what are these? Okay, I said

0:43:42.600 --> 0:43:46.040
<v Speaker 5>there's negative health effects of short sleep, what are they really?

0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:52.160
<v Speaker 5>We definitely see increases in fatal accidents, especially car accidents,

0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:56.080
<v Speaker 5>but also workplace accidents, whether that's like making mistakes at

0:43:56.120 --> 0:43:59.520
<v Speaker 5>work that put other people at risk, or getting your

0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:02.280
<v Speaker 5>arm cut or like having an accident in your workplace,

0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:05.840
<v Speaker 5>and these are largely driven by impairment in performance and

0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:08.719
<v Speaker 5>awareness that comes with this sleep deprivation. Right, we talked

0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:12.799
<v Speaker 5>about how it affects your ability to react to things.

0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.960
<v Speaker 3>And all of that attentiveness exactly.

0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:21.320
<v Speaker 5>But we also see big increases in risks of cardiovascular disease,

0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:25.000
<v Speaker 5>so that's heart attack, stroke, heart failure. We see increases

0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:29.080
<v Speaker 5>in high blood pressure, we see increases in diabetes. We

0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:32.440
<v Speaker 5>don't know the exact mechanisms of this, but we think

0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:36.240
<v Speaker 5>that it's related to effects on our metabolism as well

0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:41.040
<v Speaker 5>as insulin resistance, and then maybe something about like variations

0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:43.080
<v Speaker 5>in blood pressure and things that happen with sleep. So

0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:46.000
<v Speaker 5>if we're getting short sleep again that less than five

0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:49.040
<v Speaker 5>ish five to seven hours of sleep per night, we

0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:52.120
<v Speaker 5>see increases in risk of all of these diseases. We

0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:55.480
<v Speaker 5>talked in our Circadian Rhythm episode about the very strong

0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:59.000
<v Speaker 5>associations between shift work, which tends to result in sleep

0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:03.239
<v Speaker 5>deprivation and increased risk of cancers, and we don't really

0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:05.880
<v Speaker 5>know the mechanisms there, but we also see we know

0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:08.600
<v Speaker 5>that sleep has a huge effect on our immune system,

0:45:09.000 --> 0:45:12.160
<v Speaker 5>and so a lack of sleep can increase inflammatory markers

0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:15.520
<v Speaker 5>and things like that, and we see sleep affected in

0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:19.239
<v Speaker 5>a variety of ways in a variety of psychiatric and

0:45:19.320 --> 0:45:27.799
<v Speaker 5>neuropsychiatric disorders, including depression, bipolar, anxiety, and dementia. Sleep architecture

0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:32.680
<v Speaker 5>is hugely affected in dementia is a consequence exactly. We

0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:34.960
<v Speaker 5>have no idea, right, but we know that it's like

0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:35.960
<v Speaker 5>very involved.

0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:38.520
<v Speaker 2>That's like, and that's what Yeah, there's like, ah, this

0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:40.840
<v Speaker 2>is where the headlines I feel like are really frustrating

0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:43.680
<v Speaker 2>because it's like, we know, for instance, in Perkinson's disease,

0:45:43.800 --> 0:45:47.120
<v Speaker 2>that sleep disruption is one of the earliest symptoms, yes,

0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:48.759
<v Speaker 2>and it's usually.

0:45:48.440 --> 0:45:51.839
<v Speaker 4>Something that you only look back on and go, oh yeah.

0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:54.040
<v Speaker 3>Yep, just like constipation actually.

0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:54.480
<v Speaker 4>Just like constipation.

0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:58.320
<v Speaker 2>But I feel like there are headlines that then suggest

0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:00.760
<v Speaker 2>that like if you aren't if you are getting sleep,

0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:01.560
<v Speaker 2>you are.

0:46:01.600 --> 0:46:04.279
<v Speaker 4>At risk of these disorders.

0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:06.359
<v Speaker 2>Right, And it's like, is that is that true? We

0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:07.640
<v Speaker 2>don't does it play right?

0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:08.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:11.120
<v Speaker 5>Yes, you're right, Like we don't really know, especially when

0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:14.399
<v Speaker 5>it comes to like causal versus consequence and things like that.

0:46:14.800 --> 0:46:16.600
<v Speaker 5>I also do want to just point out that there's

0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:19.080
<v Speaker 5>also a lot of data that shows, especially in the US,

0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:23.560
<v Speaker 5>that there's huge socioeconomic and racial disparities in who is

0:46:23.600 --> 0:46:25.640
<v Speaker 5>getting quote unquote enough sleep.

0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Who's having to work two jobs, three jobs, and how childcare.

0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:30.920
<v Speaker 5>It's like, right, yeah, so who is at risk for

0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:35.000
<v Speaker 5>sleep deprivation or having short sleep? And because we know

0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:39.160
<v Speaker 5>that short sleep is associated with a lot of the

0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:44.320
<v Speaker 5>same health outcomes that we see huge disparities in terms

0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:46.759
<v Speaker 5>of race and socioeconomics when it comes to things like

0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:49.280
<v Speaker 5>heart disease, diabetes, blood pressure, these things that are also

0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:52.040
<v Speaker 5>related to sleep. Like, you can't really disentangle those things

0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:58.439
<v Speaker 5>very easily. But there's a few big caveats, I feel

0:46:58.480 --> 0:46:59.759
<v Speaker 5>like to all of this, and you pointed out so

0:46:59.880 --> 0:47:02.080
<v Speaker 5>much any of them already in what you were talking

0:47:02.160 --> 0:47:06.440
<v Speaker 5>about first, is that whether we have this number of

0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:09.160
<v Speaker 5>seven to eight hours, because again that is what this

0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:12.439
<v Speaker 5>kind of large scale data all converges on that less

0:47:12.480 --> 0:47:15.960
<v Speaker 5>than seven ish hours, more than eight ish hours, we

0:47:16.040 --> 0:47:18.640
<v Speaker 5>see more negative health consequences. So that means that the

0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:22.960
<v Speaker 5>ideal for adults is seven eight ish hours. Does it

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:25.800
<v Speaker 5>have to happen all at once or can a split

0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:30.000
<v Speaker 5>sleep schedule ken cs does or naps or repostas can

0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:30.640
<v Speaker 5>that count?

0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:33.360
<v Speaker 4>And there's not a ton.

0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:35.960
<v Speaker 5>Of data on this, but the data that has actually

0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:37.640
<v Speaker 5>looked at it, studies that have looked at like a

0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:41.759
<v Speaker 5>split sleep schedule or looking at naps, they absolutely count.

0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:47.040
<v Speaker 5>So it is not about getting seven uninterrupted hours of sleep.

0:47:47.600 --> 0:47:50.239
<v Speaker 5>It is seven total hours of sleep in a twenty

0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:53.400
<v Speaker 5>four hour period. And we know that, especially in the

0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:56.040
<v Speaker 5>cases of things like shift work where you can't avoid

0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:58.240
<v Speaker 5>the fact that you only have this number of hours

0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:02.360
<v Speaker 5>between work or whatever, that having naps can have a

0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:06.800
<v Speaker 5>huge increase in performance, decrease in accidents, like it really

0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:11.759
<v Speaker 5>improves outcomes. But the other thing is that if we

0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:15.760
<v Speaker 5>need seven to eight hours, it needs to be good

0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:20.279
<v Speaker 5>quality sleep too. But all of the data that we

0:48:20.480 --> 0:48:25.120
<v Speaker 5>have on the negative effects of sleep really rely largely

0:48:25.280 --> 0:48:28.759
<v Speaker 5>with a few exceptions, on total duration of sleep. It's

0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:32.640
<v Speaker 5>all about sleep deprivation, right where it's like, we know

0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:36.040
<v Speaker 5>that if you're not getting enough hours of sleep, you're

0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:40.240
<v Speaker 5>having these negative health income outcomes. We don't have nearly

0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:42.160
<v Speaker 5>as much data on what makes.

0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:43.719
<v Speaker 4>Good sleep good.

0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Sleep, Okay, but I have like just a question or

0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:51.680
<v Speaker 2>a thought to because we're talking about how sleep deprivation, duration,

0:48:51.960 --> 0:48:55.680
<v Speaker 2>et cetera. And I think that there's and you pointed

0:48:55.719 --> 0:48:57.640
<v Speaker 2>this out that there are people who are at risk

0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:01.600
<v Speaker 2>of sleep deprivation because of life, life circumstances, because of jobs,

0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:03.680
<v Speaker 2>because of et cetera, like all these different aspects. So

0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:07.719
<v Speaker 2>they are not able to achieve eight hours.

0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:09.280
<v Speaker 3>Eight hours at least not eight hours continuously.

0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:11.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, they like, let's say those eight hours are not

0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:15.680
<v Speaker 2>available to them. But there's a difference between that person

0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:18.279
<v Speaker 2>who's sleeping six hours or is there a difference, I

0:49:18.280 --> 0:49:20.439
<v Speaker 2>guess is my question between that person who can only

0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:24.120
<v Speaker 2>sleep six hours because of external life circumstances versus someone

0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:26.520
<v Speaker 2>who can only sleep six hours even though they want

0:49:26.560 --> 0:49:28.040
<v Speaker 2>to and have the space to sleep eight.

0:49:28.200 --> 0:49:29.400
<v Speaker 3>That's a great question, Aaron.

0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:32.120
<v Speaker 5>We don't have that level as far as I found

0:49:32.160 --> 0:49:35.560
<v Speaker 5>in the literature. We don't have that level of disentanglement.

0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:36.759
<v Speaker 2>Because I feel like this is where some of it

0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:39.840
<v Speaker 2>comes into play. Whereas like not being able to achieve

0:49:39.840 --> 0:49:42.240
<v Speaker 2>those eight hours is it why?

0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:42.719
<v Speaker 4>Right?

0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:44.799
<v Speaker 5>Is it because you are dealing with insomnia and you

0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:47.400
<v Speaker 5>are trying to fall asleep but you cannot Or is

0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:49.920
<v Speaker 5>it because you get home at ten pm and your

0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:51.520
<v Speaker 5>next shift starts at five am?

0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:51.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.560
<v Speaker 5>Right, I don't know. We don't have it because again,

0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:59.080
<v Speaker 5>these are like, yeah, it's a really good question. It's

0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:01.360
<v Speaker 5>just so much because those are two different that is,

0:50:01.400 --> 0:50:03.560
<v Speaker 5>two different issues that we're dealing with, and yet the

0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:06.160
<v Speaker 5>outcome is the same. You are getting less hours of sleep.

0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:08.440
<v Speaker 2>You're getting less hours. But is the consequence of that

0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:09.640
<v Speaker 2>outcome like does that.

0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:11.879
<v Speaker 5>Might have the same effect as far as far as

0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:14.280
<v Speaker 5>we know on the big scale data, yes, just period,

0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:16.359
<v Speaker 5>it's like you're not getting enough hours.

0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:18.359
<v Speaker 4>Ok, well, let's talk about quality. So how do we.

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:21.319
<v Speaker 3>Define quality sleep? According to Big Sleep.

0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:23.520
<v Speaker 5>Just kidding, I just want to call that's the National

0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:26.000
<v Speaker 5>Sleep Foundation, but you know everyone's.

0:50:25.600 --> 0:50:27.080
<v Speaker 3>Into Big so and so.

0:50:27.600 --> 0:50:31.040
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, So according to the National Sleep Foundation, there

0:50:31.080 --> 0:50:32.800
<v Speaker 5>was a paper I think it was from twenty seventeen.

0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:35.200
<v Speaker 5>I'll have to check my notes, but they came out

0:50:35.200 --> 0:50:37.960
<v Speaker 5>with this big guideline basically on like how are we

0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:39.240
<v Speaker 5>going to define quality sleep?

0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:41.840
<v Speaker 3>How do we actually do this? What counts as quality

0:50:41.880 --> 0:50:42.960
<v Speaker 3>good quality sleep?

0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:47.120
<v Speaker 5>And I'm not going to go nitty gritty in the details,

0:50:47.160 --> 0:50:49.839
<v Speaker 5>but you can read the exact paper to really because

0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:52.000
<v Speaker 5>they go line by line on like what do you

0:50:52.040 --> 0:50:53.799
<v Speaker 5>need to have for this to be good sleep? Or

0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:57.080
<v Speaker 5>what metric would qualify as poor quality sleep. The gist

0:50:57.080 --> 0:51:00.200
<v Speaker 5>of it is like big scale, we should be falling

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:04.600
<v Speaker 5>asleep relatively quickly, which means within fifteen to twenty minutes,

0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:08.879
<v Speaker 5>not too quickly, Like if you're falling asleep within two

0:51:08.920 --> 0:51:10.839
<v Speaker 5>to five minutes or less than eight minutes, that might

0:51:10.880 --> 0:51:13.640
<v Speaker 5>be a sign that you had sleep deprivation and so

0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:15.800
<v Speaker 5>your sleep drive is too strong, so you're falling asleep

0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:16.240
<v Speaker 5>too fast.

0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:19.120
<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry, annoy it's just like I don't know.

0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:22.240
<v Speaker 2>I just am still on the whole like should, should, should,

0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:25.960
<v Speaker 2>here's the ideal. You are wrong lett, you don't do this?

0:51:26.239 --> 0:51:28.279
<v Speaker 3>What can we keep going? Because it's gonna get even better? Please,

0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:29.800
<v Speaker 3>meaning you're gonna get even.

0:51:29.640 --> 0:51:31.920
<v Speaker 4>More I'm annoyed. Yeah.

0:51:32.640 --> 0:51:36.520
<v Speaker 5>We we should be falling asleep relatively quickly. We should

0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:40.520
<v Speaker 5>not be waking up more than once per night. Certainly,

0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:43.160
<v Speaker 5>we should not be awake for more than twenty minutes

0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:44.920
<v Speaker 5>total after we fall asleep.

0:51:45.640 --> 0:51:47.239
<v Speaker 3>Just let me finish and then we'll get into it.

0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:50.319
<v Speaker 5>Our rem sleep. This gets a little more into sleep

0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:52.799
<v Speaker 5>architecture and who's able to measure this? Our rem sleep

0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:55.320
<v Speaker 5>should be about twenty to thirty percent of our total

0:51:55.320 --> 0:51:58.080
<v Speaker 5>sleep duration, and our deep sleep should be about fifteen

0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:04.560
<v Speaker 5>to twenty percent. Okay, fifteen to twenty fifteen to twenty percent. Now,

0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:07.879
<v Speaker 5>these are the consensus guidelines. This is the consensus. These

0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:10.920
<v Speaker 5>are the average that they came to. Even in this document,

0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:13.000
<v Speaker 5>they have these like graphs for each of these and

0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:17.080
<v Speaker 5>they have dotted like it's like a barograph where it's

0:52:17.080 --> 0:52:20.560
<v Speaker 5>like filled in versus dotted versus blank, and the dotted

0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:23.200
<v Speaker 5>area is the quote unquote disagreement. And that's like most

0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:25.759
<v Speaker 5>of these graphs, meaning that even among the experts they

0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:28.080
<v Speaker 5>could not agree on like should it be twenty percent

0:52:28.160 --> 0:52:30.280
<v Speaker 5>or should it be thirty percent? Should it be fifteen minutes?

0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:33.319
<v Speaker 5>Or should it be twenty minutes? Like we really don't know.

0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:35.759
<v Speaker 5>And yet they are trying to come up with these

0:52:35.800 --> 0:52:39.359
<v Speaker 5>guidelines on how what counts as good quality sleep? How

0:52:39.400 --> 0:52:41.640
<v Speaker 5>are we going to measure this in like clinical studies?

0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:45.000
<v Speaker 5>Not how should you be measuring it on your rings

0:52:45.120 --> 0:52:45.600
<v Speaker 5>and things?

0:52:45.719 --> 0:52:45.919
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, can I there's one more?

0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:51.000
<v Speaker 5>There's one more, because this I think is so important

0:52:51.000 --> 0:52:52.640
<v Speaker 5>in the context of everything that you're talking about.

0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:53.360
<v Speaker 4>Huh.

0:52:53.840 --> 0:52:57.400
<v Speaker 5>According to these guidelines, if you are napping during the

0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:00.480
<v Speaker 5>day and you're not a baby, that is an indicator

0:53:00.640 --> 0:53:03.879
<v Speaker 5>of poor sleep quality, especially if you're napping for more

0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:06.200
<v Speaker 5>than like ninety two one hundred minutes aka one full

0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:06.840
<v Speaker 5>sleep cycle.

0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:17.280
<v Speaker 4>Okay, okay, go ahead. So here's the thing. Uh huh?

0:53:17.320 --> 0:53:18.000
<v Speaker 4>Where do I begin?

0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:18.759
<v Speaker 3>Where do you begin?

0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:21.440
<v Speaker 2>They have different all of these different metrics.

0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:22.160
<v Speaker 4>Uh huh.

0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:24.080
<v Speaker 2>And this is what you should do, and this is

0:53:24.120 --> 0:53:27.719
<v Speaker 2>what you shouldn't do. Yes, And why shouldn't you do

0:53:27.800 --> 0:53:31.040
<v Speaker 2>those things? That means that you get bad sleep? What

0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.520
<v Speaker 2>does bad sleep mean? How is this measured? What about

0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:34.720
<v Speaker 2>the piece? What about the picture?

0:53:34.880 --> 0:53:37.719
<v Speaker 4>All of all of these things together? Correct? Why is

0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:38.600
<v Speaker 4>napping bad?

0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:43.440
<v Speaker 2>That feels very like industrial revolution more moralizing?

0:53:43.600 --> 0:53:45.640
<v Speaker 5>And you should not be awake for more than twenty

0:53:45.680 --> 0:53:48.080
<v Speaker 5>minutes at night. So that means that a split sleep schedule,

0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:50.759
<v Speaker 5>a bi phasic sleep schedule, would be an indicator of

0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:53.080
<v Speaker 5>poor quality sleep according to these guys.

0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Lass, I don't it just there's something about sleep that

0:53:56.040 --> 0:53:58.560
<v Speaker 2>makes me feel So I think maybe because like I

0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:01.839
<v Speaker 2>feel such anxiety about sleep that I am because all

0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:04.520
<v Speaker 2>of these things, like I'm not getting good quality sleep

0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:06.560
<v Speaker 2>on the center these metrics. But there are days when

0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I feel great and I feel super well rested. But

0:54:09.200 --> 0:54:11.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, but is this going to make me more

0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:14.360
<v Speaker 2>vulnerable to infections? Or am I going to get dementia

0:54:14.480 --> 0:54:17.080
<v Speaker 2>or whatever? All these different things, and it just feels

0:54:17.120 --> 0:54:19.279
<v Speaker 2>like so much pressure to do.

0:54:19.239 --> 0:54:19.919
<v Speaker 4>The right thing.

0:54:20.120 --> 0:54:23.839
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and there's no there's no solution. There's like very

0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:26.880
<v Speaker 2>few solutions, or there's solutions in the forms of pharmaceuticals

0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:29.359
<v Speaker 2>which like work for some people, don't work for.

0:54:29.320 --> 0:54:33.080
<v Speaker 5>Others, and most of them are highly addictive where you

0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.680
<v Speaker 5>cannot then sleep without it. They're also altering our sleep architecture,

0:54:37.560 --> 0:54:39.160
<v Speaker 5>Like there's a lot of downsides of a lot of

0:54:39.200 --> 0:54:41.520
<v Speaker 5>the medicines that we use to help people sleep, and

0:54:41.600 --> 0:54:43.520
<v Speaker 5>most of them are not indicated to be used in

0:54:43.560 --> 0:54:44.360
<v Speaker 5>the long term.

0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:51.120
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, like there is okay, at the

0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:54.480
<v Speaker 2>same time, many people aren't getting the sleep that they

0:54:54.560 --> 0:54:58.080
<v Speaker 2>should be getting, and part of that is maybe it's

0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:00.239
<v Speaker 2>individual choices, but part of it is also because because

0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:02.600
<v Speaker 2>of the had the way that sercie sience function. Yep,

0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:07.400
<v Speaker 2>and so's there is no solution, right, but it's so

0:55:07.640 --> 0:55:08.360
<v Speaker 2>I just think.

0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:11.759
<v Speaker 5>That these guidelines in particular are so interesting if we

0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:14.040
<v Speaker 5>really pull back and look at this like big picture

0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:18.400
<v Speaker 5>of evolutionary context, and they still largely are driven based

0:55:18.440 --> 0:55:21.479
<v Speaker 5>on data about sleep deprivation and things, because we see

0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:24.960
<v Speaker 5>that like if people are sleep deprived or they're not

0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:27.879
<v Speaker 5>getting a lot of deep sleep or things like that

0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:30.719
<v Speaker 5>during a sleep, then they're going to have say an

0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.920
<v Speaker 5>increased or rather a decreased sleep latency, so like the

0:55:33.960 --> 0:55:36.239
<v Speaker 5>next night, they're going to fall asleep a lot quicker, right,

0:55:36.280 --> 0:55:38.160
<v Speaker 5>And so that is where it's not like this data

0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:38.920
<v Speaker 5>comes out of nowhere.

0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:41.839
<v Speaker 4>They're not making it up, but it is.

0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:45.560
<v Speaker 5>It's all very messy, and it's all based on how

0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:49.080
<v Speaker 5>we live today. And I read one paper that was like, honestly,

0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:52.640
<v Speaker 5>to look at how humans sleep today is like looking

0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:54.640
<v Speaker 5>at lab rats in a lab. It's not like looking

0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:57.759
<v Speaker 5>at natural rats in their habitat because we live in

0:55:57.880 --> 0:56:00.799
<v Speaker 5>labs basically, which I thought was so inter well, And.

0:56:00.840 --> 0:56:03.360
<v Speaker 2>So much of the sleep treatments or how sleep disorder

0:56:03.480 --> 0:56:07.000
<v Speaker 2>is defined or characterized, or how people feel like they're

0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:09.800
<v Speaker 2>not getting enough sleep is because I can't fall asleep

0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:12.000
<v Speaker 2>at this time the way that I that everyone else

0:56:12.080 --> 0:56:14.400
<v Speaker 2>thinks I should, yes, right, And a lot of the

0:56:14.400 --> 0:56:16.879
<v Speaker 2>treatments then, like I was, I didn't talk about any

0:56:16.880 --> 0:56:18.200
<v Speaker 2>of this, but there was a book that I read

0:56:18.200 --> 0:56:20.200
<v Speaker 2>that discussed this and did a lot of case studies

0:56:20.480 --> 0:56:22.759
<v Speaker 2>and kids who like, there were a few kids that

0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:25.480
<v Speaker 2>were like I can't they could not stay awake during

0:56:25.520 --> 0:56:27.960
<v Speaker 2>the day, and their tactic was to make them go

0:56:28.120 --> 0:56:31.279
<v Speaker 2>exercise during that time. It would be like you have

0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:32.880
<v Speaker 2>to walk on a treadmill, you have to go on

0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:35.440
<v Speaker 2>this exercise bike instead of like letting.

0:56:35.160 --> 0:56:36.160
<v Speaker 3>This kid take a nap.

0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:37.240
<v Speaker 5>Oh my gosh.

0:56:37.560 --> 0:56:39.799
<v Speaker 2>And same thing, like somebody was like I had to

0:56:39.920 --> 0:56:42.040
<v Speaker 2>quit my job and find a more flexible job because

0:56:42.080 --> 0:56:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I could not wake up or I could not sleep

0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:47.160
<v Speaker 2>it whatever, it is, right, But it's like in those

0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:50.840
<v Speaker 2>situations or like I was on this medication that allowed

0:56:50.840 --> 0:56:53.520
<v Speaker 2>me to sleep during these times when society was telling

0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:54.040
<v Speaker 2>me to sleep.

0:56:54.120 --> 0:56:55.359
<v Speaker 4>Yep, that I had to sleep then.

0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:59.360
<v Speaker 2>But it's just like it shows such a bias towards

0:56:59.480 --> 0:57:02.080
<v Speaker 2>what we diffrene is ideal sleep, right, the way that

0:57:02.160 --> 0:57:05.680
<v Speaker 2>medicine and and capitalism are.

0:57:05.520 --> 0:57:08.759
<v Speaker 5>Yeah in hand in this oh one hundred yeah, it's

0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:13.520
<v Speaker 5>so it's so so so interesting, Like I I I

0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:14.960
<v Speaker 5>feel like this has changed the way that I think

0:57:15.000 --> 0:57:16.000
<v Speaker 5>about sleep totally.

0:57:16.880 --> 0:57:17.760
<v Speaker 3>It was really interesting.

0:57:17.840 --> 0:57:21.160
<v Speaker 5>But at the same time, at the same time, there

0:57:21.200 --> 0:57:24.680
<v Speaker 5>are quite a lot of sleep disorders. Yes, and again,

0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:27.800
<v Speaker 5>we do need sleep, and it seems that on average,

0:57:27.920 --> 0:57:31.960
<v Speaker 5>on average, we need somewhere between seven and eight hours

0:57:32.000 --> 0:57:32.520
<v Speaker 5>as adults.

0:57:32.680 --> 0:57:34.160
<v Speaker 3>You could maybe say six to eight hours.

0:57:34.320 --> 0:57:35.680
<v Speaker 4>I just find that so interesting.

0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Yees, six six eight, But like historically and then you

0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:43.400
<v Speaker 2>know pre industrial societies today getting getting five to seven

0:57:43.480 --> 0:57:44.840
<v Speaker 2>or five point seven.

0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:47.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so that's pretty close to six to seven, but like.

0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Six to seven today is like that would be low

0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:52.240
<v Speaker 2>I think in medicine.

0:57:52.400 --> 0:57:55.200
<v Speaker 5>In medicine, that's usually considered pretty reap. But you were

0:57:55.200 --> 0:57:57.840
<v Speaker 5>talking about short sleep being less than seven. Well, again

0:57:57.880 --> 0:57:59.959
<v Speaker 5>because they lump most of them are getting less than five.

0:58:00.320 --> 0:58:02.880
<v Speaker 5>I feel like seven is the number that is most common.

0:58:03.320 --> 0:58:05.680
<v Speaker 5>So you're right, six would be probably considered.

0:58:05.360 --> 0:58:07.520
<v Speaker 4>Not enough today. Yeah, but.

0:58:09.160 --> 0:58:11.640
<v Speaker 5>It's all on average too, right, And if they're getting

0:58:11.640 --> 0:58:14.520
<v Speaker 5>more in the winter but we're not, because why is

0:58:14.520 --> 0:58:17.120
<v Speaker 5>it the fluoresza lights, I don't know. It's a little

0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:18.520
<v Speaker 5>bit of a mess. But there are a lot of

0:58:18.520 --> 0:58:21.200
<v Speaker 5>sleep disorders and they're all really important and they all

0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:24.600
<v Speaker 5>deserve their own episode, which we're not doing narklepsi.

0:58:24.680 --> 0:58:27.960
<v Speaker 2>We will be doing insomnia, we will be doing sleepy,

0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:30.160
<v Speaker 2>We should do that one soon.

0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:32.520
<v Speaker 5>We should because we can, like you're saying, kind of

0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:35.520
<v Speaker 5>group those those are three of the big categories really,

0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:38.440
<v Speaker 5>or they fit into three categories of sleep disorders. So

0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:40.440
<v Speaker 5>I'll mention a few of the biggest ones just so

0:58:40.440 --> 0:58:44.200
<v Speaker 5>that people know, like how we define these big scale

0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.920
<v Speaker 5>Insomnia is probably the first one that people think of

0:58:46.960 --> 0:58:49.680
<v Speaker 5>if we think of like sleep disorder. Maybe I don't

0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:52.440
<v Speaker 5>know a lot of people, and there's different ways to

0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:54.680
<v Speaker 5>define it. If you're dealing with, you know, a little

0:58:54.680 --> 0:58:57.640
<v Speaker 5>bit of insomnia, meaning like a cute insomnia jet lag

0:58:57.760 --> 0:59:01.080
<v Speaker 5>versus chronic insomnia, But usually it's either not being able

0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:03.320
<v Speaker 5>to fall asleep or not being able to stay asleep

0:59:03.320 --> 0:59:05.800
<v Speaker 5>once you're asleep, which again is so interesting in the

0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:06.920
<v Speaker 5>context of this idea.

0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:07.960
<v Speaker 4>Of faces sep so omnia.

0:59:08.120 --> 0:59:10.760
<v Speaker 5>Yes, yeah, And it's estimated that at least in the

0:59:10.880 --> 0:59:13.960
<v Speaker 5>US anywhere from ten to twenty percent of adults have

0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:17.800
<v Speaker 5>either chronic insomnia or intermittent issues with insomnia, so chronic

0:59:18.280 --> 0:59:22.479
<v Speaker 5>twenty percent, intermittent. We talked again in our Circadian Rhythm

0:59:22.480 --> 0:59:25.720
<v Speaker 5>episode about circadian rhythm sleep disorders, which is you know,

0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:29.760
<v Speaker 5>whether you whether it's just a mismatch between what your

0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:33.600
<v Speaker 5>job or your environment requires, or because you have to

0:59:33.600 --> 0:59:36.120
<v Speaker 5>do shift work, whatever it is, whether you're a teenager

0:59:36.120 --> 0:59:38.040
<v Speaker 5>and your school starts at seven am, but you have

0:59:38.120 --> 0:59:40.520
<v Speaker 5>shifted to be a night owl, So that that's a

0:59:40.520 --> 0:59:43.600
<v Speaker 5>whole nother set of sleep disorders. Then there are sleep

0:59:43.600 --> 0:59:47.800
<v Speaker 5>related breathing disorders like obstructive sleep apnea, which and this

0:59:47.920 --> 0:59:49.240
<v Speaker 5>is where I think we can get a lot of

0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:53.120
<v Speaker 5>data about sleep quality because sleep apnea is not necessarily

0:59:53.160 --> 0:59:56.480
<v Speaker 5>changing your sleep duration at all, but it results in

0:59:56.560 --> 1:00:01.160
<v Speaker 5>fragmented sleep because you are frequently arousing during sleep and

1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:04.720
<v Speaker 5>you're basically going from non rem sleep to awake for

1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:07.240
<v Speaker 5>very short periods. You might not even ever be aware

1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:09.520
<v Speaker 5>that you're doing it, but your brain is doing it

1:00:10.280 --> 1:00:12.920
<v Speaker 5>on top of the fact that you are not breathing,

1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:18.400
<v Speaker 5>so your body and brain are not getting oxygen alert alert.

1:00:18.320 --> 1:00:19.400
<v Speaker 4>That's why you wake up.

1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:24.600
<v Speaker 5>And so that has huge consequences, especially on things like

1:00:24.640 --> 1:00:28.680
<v Speaker 5>cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, all those things.

1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:33.040
<v Speaker 5>So obstructive sleep apnea is a very serious disorder, and

1:00:33.080 --> 1:00:35.760
<v Speaker 5>it's estimated to effect close to fifteen percent of adults

1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:39.120
<v Speaker 5>in the US. Fifteen percent such a high I know number.

1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:41.840
<v Speaker 5>And then there's the opposite end of the spectrum, which

1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:45.680
<v Speaker 5>are disorders of central hypersomnia, like narcolepsy, which is the

1:00:45.720 --> 1:00:49.400
<v Speaker 5>most well known, and that results in sleep attacks during

1:00:49.440 --> 1:00:53.680
<v Speaker 5>the day and this interrupted more fragmented and less consolidated

1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:57.000
<v Speaker 5>sleep at night. We also see, especially with narcolepsy, we

1:00:57.000 --> 1:00:59.840
<v Speaker 5>see what's called cataplexy, where you have the muscle atonia.

1:00:59.880 --> 1:01:01.960
<v Speaker 4>The we usually associate it with rem.

1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:06.040
<v Speaker 5>Sleep that is associated by emotional arousal or sometimes just

1:01:06.080 --> 1:01:10.640
<v Speaker 5>happens randomly inappropriate times, meaning not while you are asleep.

1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:14.400
<v Speaker 5>And then we have there's other hypersomnias as well. And

1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:16.640
<v Speaker 5>then there's things like parasomnia's which we see with things

1:01:16.640 --> 1:01:19.760
<v Speaker 5>like Parkinson's, or we have sleep related movement disorders like

1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:23.760
<v Speaker 5>restless leg like. There are a lot of sleep disorders

1:01:23.760 --> 1:01:27.960
<v Speaker 5>that are affecting people's duration and quality of sleep, even

1:01:28.000 --> 1:01:30.360
<v Speaker 5>though we don't have great metrics to kind of look

1:01:30.400 --> 1:01:32.680
<v Speaker 5>at all of that. Yeah, and then what I think

1:01:32.760 --> 1:01:34.760
<v Speaker 5>is interesting is part of what you were saying, Aaron,

1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:39.080
<v Speaker 5>is that there's often a disconnect between what our watch

1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:41.560
<v Speaker 5>says and what we feel.

1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:44.200
<v Speaker 2>What feels normal, and how we can I feel like

1:01:44.280 --> 1:01:46.640
<v Speaker 2>that is something that I struggle with sometimes, like, is

1:01:46.680 --> 1:01:48.440
<v Speaker 2>the tiredness I'm feeling excessive?

1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:50.640
<v Speaker 4>Is it excessive daytime sleepiness?

1:01:50.800 --> 1:01:52.840
<v Speaker 5>Or am I just like is it fatigue which is

1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:54.480
<v Speaker 5>different from sleepiness?

1:01:55.560 --> 1:01:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Or am I just like you know it's a down

1:01:58.800 --> 1:01:59.920
<v Speaker 2>period or whatever?

1:02:00.280 --> 1:02:01.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there are so many things.

1:02:01.760 --> 1:02:03.959
<v Speaker 2>Am I just sitting at my desk for twelve hours

1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:04.520
<v Speaker 2>a day? Right?

1:02:04.720 --> 1:02:07.960
<v Speaker 5>And we can often see big disconnects in terms of

1:02:08.040 --> 1:02:11.240
<v Speaker 5>how much sleep someone is getting if we're measuring it,

1:02:11.760 --> 1:02:14.400
<v Speaker 5>and how much sleep they feel like they're getting, how

1:02:14.520 --> 1:02:18.160
<v Speaker 5>rested they feel in the morning. So, like, all of

1:02:18.200 --> 1:02:22.120
<v Speaker 5>that is is hugely important. And the less sleep that

1:02:22.160 --> 1:02:26.280
<v Speaker 5>we get actually, especially acutely, we know this more from

1:02:26.360 --> 1:02:32.200
<v Speaker 5>acute data. We are less good at recognizing our own deficits.

1:02:32.560 --> 1:02:35.680
<v Speaker 5>Much like with alcohol, Right, once you're drunk, you don't

1:02:35.720 --> 1:02:38.360
<v Speaker 5>realize how drunk you are. Once you are sleep deprived,

1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:42.400
<v Speaker 5>you don't necessarily realize how sleep deprived you are. Interesting, Yes, especially,

1:02:42.440 --> 1:02:43.720
<v Speaker 5>we have a lot of data on that in the

1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:44.760
<v Speaker 5>acute term.

1:02:45.160 --> 1:02:46.200
<v Speaker 4>Can you say more about that?

1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:48.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So, like someone who has been sleep deprived for

1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:50.760
<v Speaker 5>let's say twenty four hours or something like that, we

1:02:50.880 --> 1:02:54.160
<v Speaker 5>know that they're like blood, It's like they are drunk, right,

1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:58.680
<v Speaker 5>But they think often that they are perfectly capable of

1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:00.960
<v Speaker 5>making sound and rational decision and that there is no

1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:03.520
<v Speaker 5>impairment in their decision making. And it's not because they

1:03:03.560 --> 1:03:08.720
<v Speaker 5>don't logically know that it that sleep deprivation affects them.

1:03:08.720 --> 1:03:11.440
<v Speaker 5>It's because in that moment there's like a disconnect. You

1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:16.720
<v Speaker 5>are not recognizing your own impairments, probably because of those impairments, right,

1:03:17.000 --> 1:03:18.520
<v Speaker 5>Like that's why you have to hide the bowl of

1:03:18.600 --> 1:03:21.360
<v Speaker 5>keys so that you even though you know you shouldn't

1:03:21.400 --> 1:03:23.880
<v Speaker 5>drink and drive, someone is going to grab those keys,

1:03:23.920 --> 1:03:26.560
<v Speaker 5>because once they are drunk, they're impaired in their.

1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:28.680
<v Speaker 4>Decision make rational decision making, right.

1:03:29.000 --> 1:03:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I have a question about sleep deprivation and trends.

1:03:33.160 --> 1:03:35.200
<v Speaker 4>So like one night is not.

1:03:35.240 --> 1:03:38.520
<v Speaker 2>Sleep deprivation if you can get sleep the following like

1:03:38.560 --> 1:03:40.840
<v Speaker 2>it is, it's a cute sleep deprivation. But like, I

1:03:40.880 --> 1:03:43.280
<v Speaker 2>guess I'm wondering about, like what is chronic sleep deprivation

1:03:43.360 --> 1:03:45.240
<v Speaker 2>When we talk about, oh, you should be getting this

1:03:45.320 --> 1:03:47.720
<v Speaker 2>many hours of sleep and night, is that average over

1:03:47.960 --> 1:03:49.000
<v Speaker 2>months over you know?

1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:51.800
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's a good question. I don't have a perfect

1:03:51.840 --> 1:03:54.320
<v Speaker 5>answer for that. We have I think more strict definitions

1:03:54.320 --> 1:03:56.960
<v Speaker 5>on that. If we're talking like insomnia, right, so like

1:03:57.040 --> 1:03:59.560
<v Speaker 5>chronic insomnia would be like there are months, there's like

1:03:59.680 --> 1:04:02.040
<v Speaker 5>certain thresholds, and like they're kind of arbitrary, but like

1:04:02.080 --> 1:04:05.040
<v Speaker 5>someone had to make a threshold, I guess, But yeah,

1:04:05.040 --> 1:04:06.840
<v Speaker 5>I don't. I don't have as much of like a

1:04:08.760 --> 1:04:09.520
<v Speaker 5>on average.

1:04:09.760 --> 1:04:15.000
<v Speaker 4>It's just on average. Sorry, I know average is not ideal.

1:04:15.080 --> 1:04:15.920
<v Speaker 4>Blah blah blah.

1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:19.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, so it is, it's all I mean, I

1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:24.880
<v Speaker 5>I think, what is my conclusion, Aaron, I don't know.

1:04:28.360 --> 1:04:28.760
<v Speaker 4>Sleep?

1:04:28.920 --> 1:04:31.640
<v Speaker 5>I think I think we learned from last week's episode

1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:35.840
<v Speaker 5>that sleep is quite essential. Yeah, and we know from

1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:38.880
<v Speaker 5>sleep deprivation and short sleep and these and these that

1:04:39.080 --> 1:04:43.000
<v Speaker 5>sleep is essential and maybe many of us aren't getting

1:04:43.120 --> 1:04:49.320
<v Speaker 5>enough of it. Maybe on average we're doing okay, But

1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:52.800
<v Speaker 5>a lot of this is probably not down to individual stuff.

1:04:53.600 --> 1:04:53.840
<v Speaker 1>I know.

1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:57.120
<v Speaker 4>It's I wish that.

1:04:57.120 --> 1:04:58.960
<v Speaker 2>I had like spend more time trying to articulate this

1:04:59.040 --> 1:05:01.000
<v Speaker 2>because they're many different components.

1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:04.440
<v Speaker 4>Question though, what is excessive daytime sleepiness? What's the threshold?

1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:06.800
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so there's like different scales that you can use

1:05:06.840 --> 1:05:09.240
<v Speaker 5>to kind of define it. So there's like the one

1:05:09.240 --> 1:05:10.840
<v Speaker 5>that I use most often, in clinic is called the

1:05:10.840 --> 1:05:14.040
<v Speaker 5>Epworth Sleepiness Scale, and so it's like a set of

1:05:14.120 --> 1:05:16.920
<v Speaker 5>questions that you ask on like how likely would you

1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:19.000
<v Speaker 5>fall asleep in these scenarios?

1:05:19.920 --> 1:05:22.400
<v Speaker 4>And if you score I think it's like a ten

1:05:22.560 --> 1:05:22.920
<v Speaker 4>or greater.

1:05:23.080 --> 1:05:26.200
<v Speaker 5>That's like that would be considered excessive compared to like

1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:28.200
<v Speaker 5>there are some scenarios like if you lay down in

1:05:28.240 --> 1:05:30.640
<v Speaker 5>the afternoon to take a nap and you are able

1:05:30.640 --> 1:05:34.120
<v Speaker 5>to fall asleep, that's not necessarily excessive sleepiness if that's

1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:36.200
<v Speaker 5>the only thing. But if you are like falling asleep

1:05:36.240 --> 1:05:39.080
<v Speaker 5>while you're stuck in traffic, and you could fall asleep

1:05:39.080 --> 1:05:40.840
<v Speaker 5>while you're reading a book, and you're going to fall

1:05:40.880 --> 1:05:42.600
<v Speaker 5>asleep no matter what. If you sit down to watch

1:05:42.640 --> 1:05:44.280
<v Speaker 5>a movie or you're a passenger in a car, Like

1:05:44.520 --> 1:05:46.840
<v Speaker 5>those are the kinds of things, And I think there's

1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:49.000
<v Speaker 5>other like thresholds in other ways to kind of define

1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:51.200
<v Speaker 5>it too. Then there's other tests that you can use,

1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:53.880
<v Speaker 5>like the multiple sleep latency test how quickly do you

1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:56.800
<v Speaker 5>fall asleep? Or the I forget the name of it now,

1:05:56.800 --> 1:05:58.640
<v Speaker 5>but it's like you sit in a quiet room and

1:05:58.680 --> 1:06:00.000
<v Speaker 5>how long can you stay awake for.

1:06:02.200 --> 1:06:05.720
<v Speaker 4>Just by yourself? Yeah, boy, thank you?

1:06:05.840 --> 1:06:08.120
<v Speaker 5>And so based on like time, you know, there's like

1:06:08.200 --> 1:06:11.520
<v Speaker 5>averages of what is typical versus what would be disordered.

1:06:11.560 --> 1:06:13.960
<v Speaker 5>So that's like kind of how you make those those distinctions.

1:06:14.160 --> 1:06:17.800
<v Speaker 4>I just find that there's so much, like, ugh, there's

1:06:17.800 --> 1:06:18.240
<v Speaker 4>so much.

1:06:18.400 --> 1:06:18.600
<v Speaker 1>I know.

1:06:18.680 --> 1:06:21.120
<v Speaker 4>Also, John falls asleep in literally under ten seconds.

1:06:21.320 --> 1:06:24.760
<v Speaker 3>I mean I maybe ten seconds, but I'm very fast.

1:06:24.840 --> 1:06:26.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it takes me a long time. I wish I

1:06:26.680 --> 1:06:29.160
<v Speaker 4>could nap. I can't. What does that mean? What does

1:06:29.160 --> 1:06:31.480
<v Speaker 4>that mean? Does that mean? But I mean I think

1:06:31.520 --> 1:06:34.320
<v Speaker 4>that it's all like I don't know, and.

1:06:34.280 --> 1:06:36.160
<v Speaker 5>So much too goes into it, right, Like there's I

1:06:36.200 --> 1:06:37.800
<v Speaker 5>didn't even get into this, but there's like data on

1:06:37.880 --> 1:06:40.640
<v Speaker 5>like what you eat for dinner, what time you eat dinner,

1:06:40.680 --> 1:06:44.240
<v Speaker 5>the concentration of glucose versus fats versus this in your food,

1:06:44.520 --> 1:06:47.560
<v Speaker 5>how much caffeine you're drinking, what time you're drinking that caffeine,

1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:51.480
<v Speaker 5>how your individual body metabolizes that caffeine. Are you drinking alcohol?

1:06:51.520 --> 1:06:52.800
<v Speaker 5>Did you drink alcohol yesterday?

1:06:52.960 --> 1:06:56.160
<v Speaker 2>There is so much like are you stressed, do you

1:06:56.240 --> 1:06:57.200
<v Speaker 2>have stressed?

1:06:57.200 --> 1:06:58.760
<v Speaker 4>Do you live next to traffic?

1:06:58.880 --> 1:07:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Like there are so many things that are working against us,

1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and at the same time, it's also like, I think

1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:08.320
<v Speaker 2>part of what's working against us is this emphasis on

1:07:08.560 --> 1:07:09.760
<v Speaker 2>like the right.

1:07:09.840 --> 1:07:12.000
<v Speaker 5>Sleep, the right the quote unquote right. And I think

1:07:12.040 --> 1:07:14.160
<v Speaker 5>that that really does. I think that you're very right

1:07:14.200 --> 1:07:17.160
<v Speaker 5>that like when we blanket statement anything, which like in

1:07:17.240 --> 1:07:20.240
<v Speaker 5>some regards we have to from a public health perspective,

1:07:20.280 --> 1:07:23.120
<v Speaker 5>absolutely give this guidance sleep is a public health issue.

1:07:23.160 --> 1:07:23.480
<v Speaker 4>It is.

1:07:23.840 --> 1:07:26.360
<v Speaker 5>But does that mean that every single person needs to

1:07:26.360 --> 1:07:28.440
<v Speaker 5>be getting exactly seven hours every night?

1:07:28.680 --> 1:07:30.040
<v Speaker 3>No, that's not what that.

1:07:30.000 --> 1:07:32.920
<v Speaker 5>Means, right, But it's very hard because then that's an

1:07:32.920 --> 1:07:36.960
<v Speaker 5>individual level communication of like how how rested do you

1:07:36.960 --> 1:07:38.920
<v Speaker 5>feel in the morning, are you having sleepiness? Are you

1:07:38.960 --> 1:07:41.520
<v Speaker 5>having issues at work? Like how do you feel like?

1:07:41.560 --> 1:07:43.000
<v Speaker 5>And that's not something that you can do in a

1:07:43.000 --> 1:07:44.560
<v Speaker 5>set of public health guidance, right.

1:07:44.440 --> 1:07:47.520
<v Speaker 2>I think it just it makes a further creates this

1:07:47.640 --> 1:07:51.200
<v Speaker 2>disconnect between being able to ask yourself how you feel

1:07:51.200 --> 1:07:53.160
<v Speaker 2>about the sleep that you're getting and what you are

1:07:53.160 --> 1:07:55.760
<v Speaker 2>comfortable with, and then also like what is the ideal

1:07:55.840 --> 1:07:58.160
<v Speaker 2>are you achieving? That you don't look like this picture

1:07:58.240 --> 1:08:03.120
<v Speaker 2>of normalcy? And it's this nonpathogenic variation, yes, human species

1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:07.280
<v Speaker 2>that does exist, and that also exists to our detriment

1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:09.600
<v Speaker 2>because of the way that society functions.

1:08:09.680 --> 1:08:12.600
<v Speaker 3>Right, drop that mic.

1:08:14.000 --> 1:08:17.639
<v Speaker 2>Tell them where they can learn more many places. Okay,

1:08:18.720 --> 1:08:21.439
<v Speaker 2>actually really there were some very interesting parts of the

1:08:21.439 --> 1:08:24.759
<v Speaker 2>book that I read called The Slumbering Masses, Sleep Medicine

1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and Modern American Life by Matthew Wolfmeier, and then that

1:08:29.320 --> 1:08:33.559
<v Speaker 2>at at Day's Closed Night in Times Past by Roger E. Kirsch,

1:08:33.760 --> 1:08:37.360
<v Speaker 2>And then that paper by yettish at Off from twenty fifteen,

1:08:37.439 --> 1:08:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Natural Sleep and its Seasonal Variations in three Pre Industrial Societies.

1:08:42.080 --> 1:08:47.320
<v Speaker 2>And then there's a paper by Schultz and Salzarulo twenty sixteen,

1:08:47.360 --> 1:08:50.719
<v Speaker 2>The Development of Sleep Medicine A Historical Sketch, and many

1:08:50.760 --> 1:08:51.719
<v Speaker 2>more on the website.

1:08:51.760 --> 1:08:52.760
<v Speaker 4>Actually not that many more.

1:08:52.760 --> 1:08:55.599
<v Speaker 3>For this one, I had a number of papers.

1:08:55.720 --> 1:08:57.760
<v Speaker 5>One that I really liked was from two thousand and

1:08:57.760 --> 1:09:01.360
<v Speaker 5>seven from Cellular and Molecular Life Signs that was titled

1:09:01.400 --> 1:09:05.559
<v Speaker 5>Sleep and Sleep Disturbance, Biological basis and Clinical Implications. There

1:09:05.600 --> 1:09:07.840
<v Speaker 5>was one from Sleep Medicine Clinics from twenty twenty four

1:09:08.080 --> 1:09:11.800
<v Speaker 5>that was titled Sleep Deficiency, Epimiology and Effects. There's another

1:09:11.800 --> 1:09:13.760
<v Speaker 5>one that I actually really enjoyed from twenty twenty four

1:09:13.840 --> 1:09:16.840
<v Speaker 5>Nature Human Behavior that was titled individual sleep need is

1:09:16.880 --> 1:09:19.759
<v Speaker 5>flexible and dynamically related to cognitive function.

1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:20.920
<v Speaker 4>How about that?

1:09:21.000 --> 1:09:21.680
<v Speaker 3>How about that?

1:09:21.720 --> 1:09:22.400
<v Speaker 4>But we have a lot.

1:09:22.360 --> 1:09:24.680
<v Speaker 3>More on our website, this podcast will kill You dot com.

1:09:24.760 --> 1:09:26.800
<v Speaker 4>Under the episode's tab, we do a.

1:09:26.680 --> 1:09:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Big thank you to Kelly again for taking the time

1:09:28.920 --> 1:09:31.000
<v Speaker 2>to share your story with us. We really appreciate it.

1:09:31.080 --> 1:09:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we do, We really do.

1:09:32.120 --> 1:09:32.439
<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

1:09:33.080 --> 1:09:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Thank you to Bloodmobile for providing the music for this

1:09:35.439 --> 1:09:37.439
<v Speaker 2>episode and all of our episode.

1:09:37.600 --> 1:09:41.599
<v Speaker 4>Yes, thank you so much, so much.

1:09:42.200 --> 1:09:45.240
<v Speaker 5>To Boomer and Sabrina and Tom and Leanna and Brent

1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:49.879
<v Speaker 5>and Pete and everyone. I've read exactly right, Corey, Jessica, Christina,

1:09:49.960 --> 1:09:52.560
<v Speaker 5>There's too many, there's everyone, everyone.

1:09:53.800 --> 1:09:54.920
<v Speaker 4>Thank you, thank you, thank you.

1:09:55.400 --> 1:09:57.200
<v Speaker 2>I had a big thank you of course, to our listeners,

1:09:57.240 --> 1:10:00.120
<v Speaker 2>to our watchers, to anyone who enjoys this podcas as

1:10:00.200 --> 1:10:01.920
<v Speaker 2>in anyway or doesn't enjoy it and just has to

1:10:01.920 --> 1:10:04.440
<v Speaker 2>watch it for a class, thank you for watching it.

1:10:06.320 --> 1:10:08.400
<v Speaker 2>We really appreciate it. And a big thank you also

1:10:08.479 --> 1:10:11.400
<v Speaker 2>to our patrons. Your support really does mean the world

1:10:11.439 --> 1:10:12.000
<v Speaker 2>to us.

1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:15.439
<v Speaker 4>Thank you. Well. Until next time, wash your hands, you

1:10:15.479 --> 1:10:17.559
<v Speaker 4>feel the animals, and get some sleep.

1:10:17.600 --> 1:10:18.240
<v Speaker 3>Get some sleep.