WEBVTT - Part Two: Thomas Jefferson: King of Hypocrites

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah boy, it sure is cold in here, because we're

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<v Speaker 2>doing a cold open, prop. How do you feel about

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<v Speaker 2>cold opens?

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<v Speaker 3>Hey? Man, you know I don't like being cold at all,

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<v Speaker 3>but you know, opening is great.

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<v Speaker 4>How many you've done that bit? How many times are

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<v Speaker 4>you gonna do it?

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<v Speaker 3>How many times I've done.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I've done that exact bit.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh you have, because I remember being like fair Fair,

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<v Speaker 4>I remember being.

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<v Speaker 2>With our good friend prop.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, hey, I'll give you a cold opening question. Okay, yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>what's the what's what's the worst thing you love?

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<v Speaker 1>What's the worst thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Man? I love so many bad things.

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<v Speaker 3>I tell you it is right now. It's harsh. Chemical

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<v Speaker 3>cleaning products.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, some of that. Yeah, those big those

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<v Speaker 2>big jugs of green ship that Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, give oh yeah, I need to kind of

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<v Speaker 3>make like nerve gas when I cleaned the bathroom.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah that's right, that's right. Oh yeah, I love that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of shit.

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<v Speaker 4>Over overpriced skin care products sharp, Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 2>I like driving, which is killing everyone, but I really

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<v Speaker 2>enjoy it. So who's to say if it's bad or not?

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<v Speaker 2>Scientists scientists speaking of scientists, Most scientists will agree that

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<v Speaker 2>the Revolutionary War happened. Why would they disagree with that?

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<v Speaker 2>It definitely did. I was going to do speaking of

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<v Speaker 2>cold opens Valley Forge pretty cold, but also, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the revolution lasted years, so I assume it was warm

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<v Speaker 2>for periods. Validy Forge is just like, you know, that's

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<v Speaker 2>one of the high points.

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<v Speaker 3>It's one of the moments.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. A lot of freezing cold colonial militia, Yeah, keeps

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<v Speaker 2>me west. Yeah. That boat that they had to cross

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<v Speaker 2>and to kill some Hessians. A lot of Hessian killing

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<v Speaker 2>in early American history. Yeah. Anyway, Thomas Jefferson is not

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<v Speaker 2>around for a lot of that. He's involved with the

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<v Speaker 2>revolution obviously, but he's a lover, not a fighter, not

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<v Speaker 2>really a lover even he's a guy who likes to

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<v Speaker 2>write things.

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<v Speaker 3>Not like, oh no, man, he's not really a lover either,

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<v Speaker 3>pretty sigma.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, very much so. He's the John Wick of

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<v Speaker 2>writing essays. Now, as the Revolutionary War starts to pick

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<v Speaker 2>up speed, most of the prominent figures urging rebellion held

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<v Speaker 2>a Continental Congress. Jefferson was not enough of like a

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<v Speaker 2>front burner kind of dude to get elected to that

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<v Speaker 2>in seventeen seventy four, but the next year, he gets

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<v Speaker 2>appointed as an alternate for another guy in the Second

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<v Speaker 2>Continental Congress, and that guy wounds up having to bounce,

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<v Speaker 2>which is how the future president first gets into Congress.

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<v Speaker 2>The fighting against Great Britain had just begun, and Washington

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<v Speaker 2>was chosen for the commander of the American forces, and

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<v Speaker 2>he's you know, Jefferson soon gets elected to be in

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<v Speaker 2>Congress properly, and he serves through the opening years of

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<v Speaker 2>the war, returning home in seventeen seventy six to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with the death of his mother, about whom he writes nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>So he is, you know, from this point on a

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<v Speaker 2>figure in the leadership of the revolution, but not yet

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<v Speaker 2>through he kind of gets in. It's still a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of his dad's like reputation that kind of secures him

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<v Speaker 2>this position. Ellis and American Sphinx describes him as entering

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<v Speaker 2>national affairs by the side door, his main claim to

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<v Speaker 2>fame in these early years. Yeah, that's an interesting way

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<v Speaker 2>to Yeah. The kind of the first thing he does

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<v Speaker 2>that really gets him some attention on his own merits

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<v Speaker 2>is that in seventeen seventy four he kind of almost

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<v Speaker 2>accidentally publishes a pamphlet called a Summary View of the

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<v Speaker 2>rights of British America. This had been written as a

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<v Speaker 2>set of instructions for the Virginia delegation to the First

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<v Speaker 2>Continental Congress, right because he's in He's held office in Virginia,

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<v Speaker 2>Virginia sending people to the First Continental Congress, which he

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<v Speaker 2>is not at, and he writes some instructions for how

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<v Speaker 2>they should what lines they should hold to in this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of debate over what posture delegates should take towards

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<v Speaker 2>Great Britain, and Jefferson urges them to take the most

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<v Speaker 2>radical course in writing, arguing that again Parliament has no

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<v Speaker 2>right to control or tax the colonies. But he doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>actually have the stones to get up in front of

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<v Speaker 2>everybody and argue his point, so he plays sick when

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<v Speaker 2>the debate in Virginia over this goes down, and this

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<v Speaker 2>track that he writes gets published later by his friends

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<v Speaker 2>who like basically are like, well, this is a good

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<v Speaker 2>thing you've written, and we agree with it, so we're

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<v Speaker 2>just going to put this out there, even though you

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<v Speaker 2>decided to play hooky when it was time to stand

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<v Speaker 2>up for it. Lame uh huh, that's TJ. Baby. Now

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot to criticize about Jefferson. But we see

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<v Speaker 2>in this document the skill with word play that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to become evident to the world when the Declaration of

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<v Speaker 2>Independence gets published. But here's a sample line from this

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<v Speaker 2>first pamphlet. Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to

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<v Speaker 2>the accidental opinion of the day, But a series of

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<v Speaker 2>oppressions begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through

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<v Speaker 2>every change of ministers too plainly prove a deliberate, systematical

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<v Speaker 2>plan of reducing us to slavery. Now, hmm, that's interesting

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<v Speaker 2>that that's how he is. That's what he says that

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<v Speaker 2>England is trying to do to them, and he part

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<v Speaker 2>of kind of making England into the heel is that

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<v Speaker 2>he decides to make to blame them for the whole

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<v Speaker 2>state of slavery in the colonies. This is where Jefferson's

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<v Speaker 2>going to publish his first kind of statements against slavery

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<v Speaker 2>that are under his own name, arguing that not only

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<v Speaker 2>should the slave trade be stopped, but the new government

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<v Speaker 2>should push for the enfranchisement of the slaves that we have.

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<v Speaker 2>And he's arguing basically that like the king started the

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<v Speaker 2>slave trade, that's yah, yeah, yeah. He like we we

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<v Speaker 2>like it's almost talking about him, like he was like

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<v Speaker 2>a drug dealer who came in. Like, look, we can't

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<v Speaker 2>be blamed for getting hooked on this stuff. Maybe one's

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<v Speaker 2>pushing it, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, we were born into this asylum, guys. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and yeah, that's why I was like, dude, it's the

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<v Speaker 3>King Thomas cognitive dissonance. Jefferson.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's the best.

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<v Speaker 3>He is the best. Added to be, like, well, that's

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<v Speaker 3>like slavery.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait a minute, he's got a hole between his course

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<v Speaker 2>corpus colossum, right, like his brain has just two rattling

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<v Speaker 2>separate albs.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Jefferson's writing gets shared widely, including by the most prominent

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<v Speaker 2>leaders of the revolution, but he himself is going to

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<v Speaker 2>initially be a marginal figure even after he enters Congress,

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<v Speaker 2>for the simple fact that he sucks at public speaking

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<v Speaker 2>and he has no heart for argument. While he awkwardly,

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<v Speaker 2>almost accidentally stumbles into revolutionary leadership, he devoted most of

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<v Speaker 2>his mental efforts to crafting his inherited home Monticello, into

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<v Speaker 2>a functioning vision of the agrarian ideal that he had

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<v Speaker 2>inherited in somewhat mutated form. From Romans like Cato and

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<v Speaker 2>Master of the Mountain, Henry Winsack writes, in the winter

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<v Speaker 2>of seventeen seventy four, Jefferson started his farm book, the

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<v Speaker 2>Plantation Ledger, he would keep until his death, writing out

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<v Speaker 2>a census of the forty five slaves he received from

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<v Speaker 2>his parents, one hundred and thirty five from the Whales estate,

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<v Speaker 2>and the five he had purchased he owned the future.

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<v Speaker 2>The census included the astonishing total of seventy nine children

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<v Speaker 2>under the age of fourteen. About forty percent of Jefferson's

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<v Speaker 2>slaves were children. Jefferson's architectural papers contain an intriguing document,

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<v Speaker 2>probably dating to the mid seventeen seventies, when the Monticello

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<v Speaker 2>household was taking shape. Jefferson sketched out plans for a

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<v Speaker 2>row of substantial, dignified Neo classical houses with stone or

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<v Speaker 2>brick hearths and ample windows for George and his family

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<v Speaker 2>and Betty Hemmings and her family. The enslaved people of

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<v Speaker 2>Monticello were nearly all members of a couple of different

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<v Speaker 2>slave families, including the Hemmingses and the Evanses, from whom

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<v Speaker 2>we get Jupiter. Jupiter is and Evans. They were an

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<v Speaker 2>inheritance from his wife's side of the family, and also

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<v Speaker 2>literally his wife's side of the family, because Martha's dad

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<v Speaker 2>has had as many as six children with the matriarch

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<v Speaker 2>of the family, Betty from American Sphinks quote, it was

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<v Speaker 2>an open secret within the slave community at Monticello that

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<v Speaker 2>the privileged status enjoyed by the Hemmings Face family it

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<v Speaker 2>derived from its mixed blood. Several of Betty's children, perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>as many as six, had most probably been fathered by

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<v Speaker 2>John Wales. In the literal, not just figurative sense of

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<v Speaker 2>the term, they were part of Jefferson's extended family. All

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<v Speaker 2>the slaves he eventually freed were hemmings Is, including Robert

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<v Speaker 2>and James in seventeen ninety four and seventeen ninety six, respectively.

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<v Speaker 2>If what struck the other slaves at Monticello was the

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<v Speaker 2>quasi independent character of the Hemmings clan with its blood

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<v Speaker 2>claim on Jefferson's paternal instincts, what most visitors tended to

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<v Speaker 2>notice was their color. Yeah, and what Ellis means here

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<v Speaker 2>is that the Hemmings family's very light skinned. Some of

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<v Speaker 2>them are described as looking white, a fact that has

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<v Speaker 2>suggested for some time that Thomas Jefferson continued his father

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<v Speaker 2>in law's tradition, and he definitely did. By the way,

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<v Speaker 2>we will be talking about that later because that really

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<v Speaker 2>becomes a factor when he's in France. In factual terms,

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<v Speaker 2>there's no other way to describe this than as rape

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<v Speaker 2>because Betty and Sally Hemings could not say no. That said,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know how the Hemmings women themselves would have

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<v Speaker 2>talked about what happened to them because they weren't allowed

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<v Speaker 2>to r yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, or at least like

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't. You know, it's a black box to us, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like we just don't have And that's part of kind

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<v Speaker 2>of where I see some of like the evil of this,

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<v Speaker 2>right is in that fact.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and the subsequential view of like like I'm tying

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<v Speaker 3>this all to like the subsequent view of like black

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<v Speaker 3>masculinity and like you know, and how they were played

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<v Speaker 3>in like coon songs and like menstrual shows that like

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<v Speaker 3>we were known for having just this amazing sexual prowess

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<v Speaker 3>that like had to be curved and while at the

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<v Speaker 3>same time being lazy, dumb, and docile, while at the

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<v Speaker 3>same time being incredibly strong and powerful man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like most historians that I've read, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>this has started to change, thankfully because of some stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that came out in the late nineties, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even up until then, and Ellis's book comes out in

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<v Speaker 2>ninety six, which is like to cut ahead a little bit,

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<v Speaker 2>two years before DNA evidence makes it very clear what

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<v Speaker 2>Jefferson was doing with Sudah. There was, so he writes

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<v Speaker 2>Americans thinks in a period of time where there's actual

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<v Speaker 2>debate over whether or not this happened between historians, And

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<v Speaker 2>as a result, Ellis cuts Jefferson more slack for his

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<v Speaker 2>behavior than I think is reasonable. But he does make

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<v Speaker 2>a point to outlight one of the more fucked up

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<v Speaker 2>dimensions of the situation at Monticello, which I had not

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<v Speaker 2>really thought about as much before I read his book.

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<v Speaker 2>Jefferson had so designed his slave community that his most

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<v Speaker 2>frequent interactions occurred with African Americans who were not treated

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<v Speaker 2>like full fledged slaves, and who did not even look

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<v Speaker 2>like full blooded Africans because in fact they were not

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of daily encounters and routinized interactions. His sense

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<v Speaker 2>of himself as less of a slave master than a

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<v Speaker 2>paternalistic employer and guardian received constant reinforcement.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and stoking the Still there's still an issue of

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<v Speaker 3>fair skin and dark skin black people still an issue,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, Yeah, yeah it is.

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<v Speaker 2>And I I mean Jefferson you can almost see as

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<v Speaker 2>like he's certainly not alone, but certain but one of

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<v Speaker 2>the founders of that, like that conflict. Yeah, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>it exists. His contribution to that exists so that he

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<v Speaker 2>can see himself not as a guy who owns people

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<v Speaker 2>and holds them in brutal bondage, but as like I'm

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<v Speaker 2>like the patriarch of the family, you know. I mean, well,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody's got a job, you know, you'll get it, come

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<v Speaker 2>with come work for Uncle Tom, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean it's like.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'll take care of you. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>The word slave is a little crass, you know, It's

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<v Speaker 3>just it's crass. Like we prefer family, right, community.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all a family here at Manticello. Yeah. If you

0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.080
<v Speaker 2>think of if you watch that show the Bear, he's

0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.000
<v Speaker 2>like the he's like the uncle character who has he's

0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.079
<v Speaker 2>always bailing him out, right, Like that's how he wants

0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.080
<v Speaker 2>to be seen, you know. Yeah, And again this goes

0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.200
<v Speaker 2>back to this, this talent he has for crafting reality

0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.119
<v Speaker 2>for himself that differs from what you might say is objective,

0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.200
<v Speaker 2>factual reality, but that you know, he is able to

0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.040
<v Speaker 2>certainly make real for himself a lot of the time,

0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 2>and he's also able to like extend through history. Like

0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people buy this vision that he puts out.

0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I better like just like the just like the

0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.600
<v Speaker 3>Jefferson Bible. It's like, let me just let me just

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:36.360
<v Speaker 3>remove the shit.

0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:40.679
<v Speaker 2>Out makes this Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah yeah. Between

0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Monticello and Philadelphia, Thomas Jefferson spent the mid seventeen seventies

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.400
<v Speaker 2>flitting between the gritty real world of war and revolution

0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.480
<v Speaker 2>and his utopian fantasies. I am convinced he would have

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.160
<v Speaker 2>been a podcaster today because he hated talking in front

0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.600
<v Speaker 2>of people, but he loved going on deep dives through

0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.959
<v Speaker 2>history books and then writing weird political rants inspired by

0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 2>the experiences. In seventeen seventy five, the book he read

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 2>was Diverse Voyages by a guy named Richard hackelyut hackelut hackelute. Yeah, Okay,

0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 2>it's the weird name. JK. L Uyt. Written in eighteen

0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 2>fifty two, This is a set of three tracts that

0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 2>were probably published separately at first going into the history

0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 2>of European exploration of the Americas. Hey, everyone, Robert here,

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.559
<v Speaker 2>I completely misspoke. Obviously eighteen fifties as well, after Jomas

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:34.240
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson's death. Richard Hackelut's Diverse Voyages was written in fifteen

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.559
<v Speaker 2>eighty two, which makes a lot more sense in context.

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:38.000
<v Speaker 3>Sorry.

0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.439
<v Speaker 2>Hackeleute, who's the first professor of modern geography at Oxford,

0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.640
<v Speaker 2>was an early ideological advocate of English colonial expansion. He

0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:51.520
<v Speaker 2>was essentially an early propagandist for British imperialism. Despite this,

0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson loved him because his idiosyncratic reading of Hackeliut was

0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.040
<v Speaker 2>that the original colonists from England had traveled to the

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.959
<v Speaker 2>Americas without help from the British government. Thus the colonies

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.679
<v Speaker 2>from the beginning represented a clean break with the mother country,

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and the English clean in Parliament, had no right to

0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.600
<v Speaker 2>govern them. America was the creation of this almost mythic

0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:17.240
<v Speaker 2>independent group of Saxon explorers, not a colonial project of

0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Great Britain.

0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, yeah, yeah, so it's like well not well, y'all, ay,

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.880
<v Speaker 3>that's right, y'all ain't pay for us to come, and

0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.160
<v Speaker 3>we just kind of came, so like you don't get

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 3>to Yeah, nah, yeah, that is that is mythology, bro.

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 2>It is revisionist history, we might say in modern terms. Yeah, right, yes,

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.920
<v Speaker 2>And it's one of those things nobody really buys this

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 2>except for his old mentor mister with right. He's like, yeah,

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 2>you've got it, Tom, but he's kind of like he's

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.400
<v Speaker 2>like a little bit of a crank, right yeah. Now,

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.920
<v Speaker 2>right around the same time to John Adams is kind

0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 2>of going to do his own version of like searching

0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.200
<v Speaker 2>back through the history to look at like how was

0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.400
<v Speaker 2>the how were the colonies, you know, colonized initially, and

0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 2>like how how much right does Great Britain have to

0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.040
<v Speaker 2>government tax us? And his work is done, I mean,

0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't call this, by our standards perfect history, but

0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 2>it's done with more rigor than Jefferson's's, right, you might

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:16.480
<v Speaker 2>equivocate Jefferson's work here to almost like sovereign citizen shit, right, Yeah.

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 2>And the main reason it's not seen that way, even

0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.360
<v Speaker 2>though it is a historical is that his ultimate contention,

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 2>which is that the colony should be independent, was not

0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>controversial among the people who win. Right, But it is

0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 2>important to see that he is just inventing history here

0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.880
<v Speaker 2>for the purpose of political experience.

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 3>Right because Yeah, because he could argue that, like, hey, listen,

0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 3>from Britain's perspective, they're saying this, this, and this. He's like,

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 3>from our perspective, he is what we was actually doing.

0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.440
<v Speaker 3>So he can make that argument as like, yeah, I'm

0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 3>not just making this up from out the thin air,

0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 3>which is kind of was, but like he could be like, well, no,

0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.680
<v Speaker 3>like that's how they viewed it. Their view is incorrect.

0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.280
<v Speaker 3>We knew what we was doing and they had a

0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.200
<v Speaker 3>limited perspective. I know what we was doing, you know,

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 3>And you could make that again, and it's because we,

0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.480
<v Speaker 3>like you said, we've already they've already accepted the point.

0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 3>The point is we supposed to be.

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 2>We got to get out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.280
<v Speaker 3>Who's homeboy's name? I forget how he's.

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.160
<v Speaker 2>Name Hackle yet, huh Hackle yet?

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:14.360
<v Speaker 3>Maybe that's him.

0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:15.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there was one homeboy that was like and they

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 3>ended up burning his books. God, what is his name?

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh you're talking about Thomas Pain.

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.320
<v Speaker 2>It was just like, yeah, Pain is dope.

0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he was like, I'm here for money. I don't understand, Like,

0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:32.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't know about the pirits and ship. I don't

0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.360
<v Speaker 3>understand about this independent ship. Y'all doing this, y'all doing

0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.320
<v Speaker 3>the Natives wrong. They seem to be nothing like what

0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.640
<v Speaker 3>y'all said. I came to make some money.

0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:42.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.480
<v Speaker 3>Me and homies came for money. I don't understand what

0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.160
<v Speaker 3>the rest of y'all is doing. Yeah, and they burnt

0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 3>his books. Boy, it was oh yeah, I mean, I'll

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:48.760
<v Speaker 3>be telling everybody.

0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson's actually gonna it's weird because like Pain is much

0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 2>more of a radical than Jefferson and is, by the way,

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.480
<v Speaker 2>an abolitionist. Yeah, Jefferson's gonna be getting a lot of

0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 2>trouble later in his career for going to bat for

0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Payin after on his Pain loses a lot of

0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:03.800
<v Speaker 2>his support because he's, I mean, he's too much of

0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.199
<v Speaker 2>a radical. He's like very critical of Christianity, Yeah, in

0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.320
<v Speaker 2>ways that are pretty modern actually, yeah, exactly his views.

0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 3>Like yeah, man, at some point, at some point we

0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 3>got I figure out how to do a deep dive

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 3>on him.

0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.199
<v Speaker 2>Because he was just fascinating thing.

0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Like y'all tripping like I don't understand, like you

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be the ones you supposed to be to

0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.199
<v Speaker 3>God believers, like I don't believe none of that. And

0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.840
<v Speaker 3>look how you treat these people that Yeah, weird to me.

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.960
<v Speaker 2>He's like the most reasonable man in the seventeen hundreds,

0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 2>yeah right, or at least the most reasonable white guy

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.080
<v Speaker 2>in the seventeen yeh yeah. Yeah. So Jefferson's skill and

0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.240
<v Speaker 2>making up bullshit to justify his beliefs after the fact

0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.639
<v Speaker 2>would reach its apex with the Declaration of Independence and

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 2>prop we are finally getting to that. That's the money

0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.480
<v Speaker 2>shot of any history of Jefferson. But looking at my

0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.560
<v Speaker 2>little clock here, because so if he's not around to

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:58.120
<v Speaker 2>warn us and we are flying like blind here and ads.

0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, we should probably do some mads.

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.159
<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah, take some ads and call me in the

0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 2>morning or in like four minutes after you skip ahead

0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:15.600
<v Speaker 2>to the part without ads, we're back. So the whole

0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 2>Declaration of Independence project kicks off in seventeen seventy six

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 2>when Jefferson was appointed with four other delegates to write

0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.879
<v Speaker 2>a declaration of Independence. And it is a sign of

0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:28.439
<v Speaker 2>how good he is as a writer that the other

0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.720
<v Speaker 2>committee members, which include Ben Franklin and John Adams, all

0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:33.840
<v Speaker 2>agree to let him handle the pros. I think Franklin

0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.520
<v Speaker 2>says he does it because he can't stand being edited, right, Like,

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to write something for somebody else to edit,

0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:40.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, And this is going to go through, Like

0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:41.800
<v Speaker 2>the Congress is going to have to approve this, and

0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 2>they're going to make changes. Yeah, John Adams, I think

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>is like Jefferson is just such a good writer, will

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.119
<v Speaker 2>let you do it. He spends the rest of his

0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.080
<v Speaker 2>life regretting this, by the way, which you would you know.

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.399
<v Speaker 2>In his first draft of the document, Jefferson spent a

0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.040
<v Speaker 2>good number of words blaming King George the Third for

0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.760
<v Speaker 2>sparking and growing the slave trade, framing it as a

0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.880
<v Speaker 2>great evil forced on the colonies by their vile king.

0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.280
<v Speaker 2>Now this specific charge is silly, but Jefferson's description of

0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.439
<v Speaker 2>the slave trade is not. He describes quote a market

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.600
<v Speaker 2>where men should be bought and sold as a hideous thing,

0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.120
<v Speaker 2>in large part due to the brutality involved in transporting them.

0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.919
<v Speaker 2>Henry Winsick writes, for many slaves suffered, as Jefferson wrote,

0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.600
<v Speaker 2>miserable death in their transportation. Every vessel tossed overboard twenty

0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.200
<v Speaker 2>fifty one hundred corpses in its passage across the Sea.

0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.760
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson most likely learned of the shrinkage of inventory from

0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 2>his father in law, John Wales, and Jefferson describes slavery

0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.240
<v Speaker 2>in his initial draft of the declaration as an execrable commerce.

0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.040
<v Speaker 2>It's shitty, he says, it's shitty, right, yeah, and that's

0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.879
<v Speaker 2>good and accurate. But all of this writing is cut

0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.280
<v Speaker 2>from the final draft, as an article for The Miller

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Center explains, after deleting Jefferson's biting attack on King George

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 2>the Third for trafficking slaves and debating other issues of

0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.560
<v Speaker 2>substance for three days, Congress approved the unanimous Declaration of

0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.359
<v Speaker 2>the Thirteen United States of am America on July fourth.

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.440
<v Speaker 2>The Continental Congress never calls it the Declaration of Independence,

0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:09.000
<v Speaker 2>by the way, it's just a better name. Sometimes that happens. Yeah,

0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 2>these guys sucked at titling. Only Thomas would have been

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.440
<v Speaker 2>a good podcaster strong on that one.

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 3>No, that's real, Yeah, that's real because he's actually like

0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.680
<v Speaker 3>because yeah, he's one of those dudes who are like, yeah,

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.200
<v Speaker 3>damn on paper, bro, like you yeah, you got it.

0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.359
<v Speaker 2>Fam that's right, especially, you know, and at this point

0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.840
<v Speaker 2>he still is a guy who could have wound up.

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.639
<v Speaker 2>He's a guy who inherited a lot of enslaved people.

0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.120
<v Speaker 2>He is writing now and he's taken at least minimal

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 2>legal steps to trying to end the practice, and he's

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.000
<v Speaker 2>now made some really bold statements about it. He could

0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:44.000
<v Speaker 2>have gone and he could have been like an early abolition.

0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.520
<v Speaker 2>He could and a struke and might have pushed a

0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of the country, Like God only knows, right, given

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:50.600
<v Speaker 2>the degree of you know.

0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:52.840
<v Speaker 3>We minted it in the first Yeah, we mentioned it

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.879
<v Speaker 3>in the first first episode. I just I like, I

0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.600
<v Speaker 3>need to get the quote right. But the one which

0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.399
<v Speaker 3>we'll probably get to, the one where he was just

0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.320
<v Speaker 3>like essentially like if yeah, yeah, God is there, if

0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 3>God is who he says he is, we're about to

0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:06.919
<v Speaker 3>get judged.

0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah okay, yeah, no, no, we're we'll be We'll be

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.239
<v Speaker 2>putting that in its context where yeah yeah, ok So.

0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 2>The primary reason his condemnations of slavery were cut from

0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the final draft was that South Carolina and Georgia refused

0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.679
<v Speaker 2>to close their slave markets. Despite the fact that this

0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.399
<v Speaker 2>final draft was compromised Jefferson's statement in the Declaration that

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.879
<v Speaker 2>all men were created equal and endowed by the Creator

0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 2>with an alienable rights took off like a summer brushfire

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.760
<v Speaker 2>among progressives of his day, and not just in the Americas. Yeah,

0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.639
<v Speaker 2>before too long, it would be cited by several states

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.159
<v Speaker 2>who were early to after the war. It's going to

0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.680
<v Speaker 2>be cited by like the first states to abolish slavery.

0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Is like why, and they're like, well, based on this declaration.

0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.000
<v Speaker 3>We said, that's what you said.

0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this stuff seems like we shouldn't have this. Yeah.

0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:56.320
<v Speaker 3>Frederick Douglas's you know, Fourth of July speech was just like, bro,

0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.160
<v Speaker 3>that's this what y'all said.

0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.560
<v Speaker 2>This This line seems pretty clear. Yeah, that said but

0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.840
<v Speaker 2>you know this is again that generations of abolitionists will

0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.840
<v Speaker 2>take a lot out of that line. Jefferson himself is

0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.680
<v Speaker 2>never really an abolitionist, right, far from it. In fact,

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.080
<v Speaker 2>this is a bit puzzling given where he sits in

0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:17.720
<v Speaker 2>seventeen seventy six, because he kind of it feels like

0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 2>he might have right, there's a moment here where it

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.240
<v Speaker 2>feels like he could have tipped that way. Historian David

0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Breon Davis notes, quote he was one of the first

0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.320
<v Speaker 2>statesmen in any part of the world to advocate concrete

0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:34.199
<v Speaker 2>measures for restricting and eradicating Negro slavery, which is not,

0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, nothing, but in the seventeen eighties it kind

0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 2>of becomes nothing because he sings a very different tune

0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.360
<v Speaker 2>during the last years of the seventeen seventies. Then he's

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.840
<v Speaker 2>going to serve in the Virginia House of Delegates, where

0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.080
<v Speaker 2>he championed progressive measures like freedom of religion and a

0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:53.080
<v Speaker 2>radical free public education system for all white male Virginians.

0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.439
<v Speaker 2>He also crusaded against legally mandated primogenitor which saw landed

0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.760
<v Speaker 2>estates passed on exclusively to eldest son. Jefferson had good

0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.880
<v Speaker 2>reasons for all this. He saw inherited wealth is dangerous

0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.880
<v Speaker 2>despite benefiting from it himself, and he opposed state religion,

0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.960
<v Speaker 2>both because it violated individual liberty and as the Miller

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.879
<v Speaker 2>Center notes, he also feared that religion would hinder the

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.600
<v Speaker 2>development of a national elite, a moral and ethical group

0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.960
<v Speaker 2>of aristocrats who would lead the nation. And this is

0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.320
<v Speaker 2>because again Jefferson is this as ellis as a sphinx.

0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:30.000
<v Speaker 2>This gives us kind of an unegalitarian explanation for some

0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:32.919
<v Speaker 2>of the things he said that seem egalitarian, even some

0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 2>of the policies he pursued that were good, which is

0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.040
<v Speaker 2>that he's not a guy who believes everyone is and

0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:41.800
<v Speaker 2>should be equal. He believes everyone should have an equal shot.

0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:43.560
<v Speaker 2>All the white men, they should have anything shot it

0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:47.320
<v Speaker 2>becoming a part of the aristocracy, and that aristocracy is

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.800
<v Speaker 2>going to be based on their natural levels of intelligence

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:50.400
<v Speaker 2>and ability.

0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:50.840
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.720
<v Speaker 2>But we need an aristocracy, right, it just needs to

0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:54.800
<v Speaker 2>be a natural.

0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:57.240
<v Speaker 3>One, right, Yeah, it's not just built on the fact

0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:58.879
<v Speaker 3>that your daddy came from this place.

0:23:59.080 --> 0:23:59.199
<v Speaker 4>Yea.

0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that that is kind of what he says

0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.960
<v Speaker 2>he's arguing for, right, and Heaver views artificial methods of

0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 2>curtailing membership in this elite as bad. He also sees

0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.040
<v Speaker 2>himself as a natural member of the aristocracy.

0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:15.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah except for me, though, Like, and I should be.

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, I didn't errate everything, but like I'm clearly

0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:19.639
<v Speaker 2>so capable, right.

0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:21.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I'm different.

0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm different. I'm built a little different than these these

0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:27.760
<v Speaker 2>other first sons who got rich, Yeah because of their daddies.

0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:29.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm built a little different.

0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:29.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:33.560
<v Speaker 2>In seventeen seventy nine, Jefferson was somewhat to his own frustration,

0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:37.119
<v Speaker 2>elected governor of Virginia. This is a bad time to

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:40.160
<v Speaker 2>be the governor of Virginia because it doesn't look great

0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>in seventeen seventy nine, right, like, Virginia's economy is in

0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:46.840
<v Speaker 2>the shitter. The British are doing pretty well in the field.

0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:49.600
<v Speaker 2>There's a counter revolution by Tories, which of these like

0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:53.000
<v Speaker 2>loyalist assholes. And Jefferson not a great warrior. He's not

0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:56.119
<v Speaker 2>like a warrior poet type guy. There's like one campaign

0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:58.679
<v Speaker 2>that he like supports in southern Virginia and it's a

0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.720
<v Speaker 2>disaster because he's he's not really good at that stuff. Now,

0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.080
<v Speaker 2>when he first goes to I think Williamsburg and then

0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:07.480
<v Speaker 2>he goes to Richmond as governor, he's like the last

0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:11.080
<v Speaker 2>governor to live in the Williamsburg mansion. Jefferson brings his

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:13.320
<v Speaker 2>some of his slaves with him, right, members of the

0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 2>Hemmings and Granger families mostly, and it's from them that

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.440
<v Speaker 2>we get a lot of the memories of Jefferson during

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:23.960
<v Speaker 2>this chaotic time. In January seventeen eighty one, Benedict Arnold

0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.480
<v Speaker 2>lands in Virginia with a whole buttload of Brits Virginia's

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.760
<v Speaker 2>militia were mostly engaged in conflict with Native Americans, and

0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson showed no aptitude for gathering these s gathered forces

0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:37.080
<v Speaker 2>together and welding them into a functional army, which, to

0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:39.679
<v Speaker 2>be fair, is hard, but he doesn't do it. So

0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:42.760
<v Speaker 2>what he does do is send his family away and

0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:45.240
<v Speaker 2>he cloisters himself in the attic of the governor's mansion

0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:48.280
<v Speaker 2>with a spyglass. When the British finally came, it took

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:50.679
<v Speaker 2>only a few cannonballs to send every white man in

0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:54.600
<v Speaker 2>town fleeing for the hills. Jefferson included several of his

0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.520
<v Speaker 2>house slaves, acted like to kind of protect the family wealth.

0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:01.320
<v Speaker 2>When he leaves them behind. One of them. We get

0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 2>this story from Isaac, who's five at the time, and

0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:07.040
<v Speaker 2>he describes the British invasion as an awful sight. It

0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.720
<v Speaker 2>seemed like the day of judgment was come, which is

0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:12.680
<v Speaker 2>not all that different from how my family members who

0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.400
<v Speaker 2>were there speak of the British invasion in the nineteen sixties,

0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:19.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, talking about the Beatles was a Beatles Beatles bit.

0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson has fled the scene, and he has left behind

0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:28.320
<v Speaker 2>like this enslaved family, including this little boy, Isaac, who's

0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:31.320
<v Speaker 2>from whom we get most of this story, and Isaac's father, George,

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.080
<v Speaker 2>I believe this is George Granger went through the house

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:38.880
<v Speaker 2>collecting valuables, primarily the family's silver, which he hid under

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 2>There's like a bed in the kitchen with like a

0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:42.600
<v Speaker 2>hide a bed under it, and he like hides it

0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:45.679
<v Speaker 2>underneath that. So when the British arrive, he lies and

0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:47.840
<v Speaker 2>he's like, my master's you know, fled and he took

0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:49.719
<v Speaker 2>all the silver with him. I don't know what's going on.

0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:52.680
<v Speaker 2>And these British soldiers they rampaged through the mansion, but

0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:56.320
<v Speaker 2>they don't find the silver. George then flees, leaving his

0:26:56.400 --> 0:27:00.719
<v Speaker 2>family behind, to find Jefferson's family at monte Cello and

0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:04.320
<v Speaker 2>help them. Right, So he he leaves his family to

0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:07.040
<v Speaker 2>go find and help Jefferson and his family get out

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:10.399
<v Speaker 2>of Monticello. And while George is away, his wife and

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:14.840
<v Speaker 2>son are taken captive by British forces. What now again?

0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:17.960
<v Speaker 2>This is like it's no, like this is it's it's

0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:21.320
<v Speaker 2>such a confusing thing because George has he's an opportunity

0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:24.600
<v Speaker 2>one a decent number of enslaved people take to find

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.120
<v Speaker 2>his freedom, right, to get himself and his family out

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.240
<v Speaker 2>of there, either with the British or just by using

0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:30.240
<v Speaker 2>the chaos to get out.

0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:32.200
<v Speaker 3>Wow, Okay, he doesn't.

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:33.919
<v Speaker 2>Not only does he not do that, but he like

0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:38.000
<v Speaker 2>leaves his family kind of trusting that the British will,

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, not fuck with them too much, and they

0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 2>wind up getting captured. And it's we're gonna talk about

0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:47.480
<v Speaker 2>all this because this is like, this is not He's

0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:49.280
<v Speaker 2>not the only person that is going to happen to

0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:53.280
<v Speaker 2>This is a major part of the history for enslaved

0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:55.919
<v Speaker 2>people during this period is like what happens, you know,

0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:57.879
<v Speaker 2>when they try to decide to flee, what happens if

0:27:57.880 --> 0:27:59.320
<v Speaker 2>they go over to the British. We're gonna talk about

0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:02.280
<v Speaker 2>all of that, but first it's time for some ads.

0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:10.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm back, I see.

0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Sophie's our second ad break.

0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:17.119
<v Speaker 4>So wow, that's so nice.

0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:20.600
<v Speaker 1>I lost power for however long I was gone for.

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Well, for the audio people, it'll be nothing, but

0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:26.359
<v Speaker 3>for the other.

0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:29.520
<v Speaker 4>People, don't miss my, my, my, my wonderful remarks.

0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of losing power, Thomas Jefferson has lost power because

0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:37.840
<v Speaker 2>he just had to flee from the Governor's mansion because

0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:45.840
<v Speaker 2>the British Benedict Arnold came rolling around there. So yeah.

0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:48.440
<v Speaker 2>The next couple of months of Jefferson's life are chaotic,

0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:51.760
<v Speaker 2>with British forces rating every Jefferson property they could find,

0:28:52.040 --> 0:28:55.120
<v Speaker 2>and Thomas keeping himself and his family just barely out

0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:58.280
<v Speaker 2>of their grasp. This was obviously hard on them, both

0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:00.960
<v Speaker 2>physically as well as mentally. Their new worn daughter Lucy

0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:04.320
<v Speaker 2>died in April, and the whole constantly on the road

0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:07.520
<v Speaker 2>thing did not help with that. Jefferson and his men

0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:11.080
<v Speaker 2>retook the capitol after the British left, but when they returned,

0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.480
<v Speaker 2>when the British come back, he has to flee again,

0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 2>and he makes it. He flees back to Monticello. He

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:20.840
<v Speaker 2>wounds up like leave, fleeing Monticello minutes ahead of this

0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 2>group of British dragoons, which is like a kind of

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:27.240
<v Speaker 2>mounted soldier. And here again one of the people that

0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:30.720
<v Speaker 2>he owned acted to protect his absent owner from the

0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:34.080
<v Speaker 2>book master of the Mountain quote. When the raiders swarmed

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:36.560
<v Speaker 2>into the house at Monticello, it quickly became a parent

0:29:36.600 --> 0:29:39.480
<v Speaker 2>that once again Jefferson had eluded them. But they knew

0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:41.800
<v Speaker 2>he could not be very far off. So one of

0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:44.800
<v Speaker 2>the dragoons jammed a pistol into Martin Hemmings's chest and

0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:47.000
<v Speaker 2>said he would shoot if Hemmings did not tell them

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:50.360
<v Speaker 2>where the governor had gone. Fire away. Then Hemmings replied

0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and refused to say anything else. Martin Hemmings was not

0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:56.320
<v Speaker 2>one of the half siblings of Missus Jefferson. His mother

0:29:56.360 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 2>had borne him before she began her relationship with John Wales.

0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Kin ship tied to the Jeffersons was not as direct

0:30:02.360 --> 0:30:05.360
<v Speaker 2>as that of his younger siblings fathered by Wales. As

0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:09.640
<v Speaker 2>the Jefferson grandchildren recounted the story, Hemming stood his ground fiercely,

0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:12.479
<v Speaker 2>answering gaze for a glance, and not receding a hair's

0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:15.440
<v Speaker 2>breadth from the muzzle of the cocked pistol. Unbeknownst to

0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.800
<v Speaker 2>the British, another servant named Caesar lay in silence beneath

0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>their feet under the floor of the portico with silver.

0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:23.840
<v Speaker 2>He and Martin had just finished hiding when the raiding

0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:24.640
<v Speaker 2>party rushed in.

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:25.760
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:29.440
<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah, that's like palsy.

0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, it's impossible to get into their heads. Like

0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.720
<v Speaker 3>it's impossible, you know, and especially with a modern brain,

0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:41.600
<v Speaker 3>like it's just it's impossible. But you can say you're

0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 3>just another slave master anyway, So like, oh, yes, you're

0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:49.320
<v Speaker 3>not my you're not my rescue, you know what I'm saying.

0:30:49.880 --> 0:30:54.960
<v Speaker 3>And and then you're like and even if you were,

0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:58.080
<v Speaker 3>it's like, well fuck you for like storm in my house,

0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 3>like you know what I'm saying, Like I still live here,

0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:03.160
<v Speaker 3>Like I mean, fuck this place. But it's but I

0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.720
<v Speaker 3>still live here, and you ain't finna, just like I

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:07.920
<v Speaker 3>don't know you, like you don't get to do this,

0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:10.440
<v Speaker 3>you know what I'm saying. It's like, you know, like

0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 3>if we gonna tear this place down, we gonna take

0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:14.320
<v Speaker 3>this place down, you won't get to tear the place down.

0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:14.560
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do wonder because obviously you don't get you

0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:20.360
<v Speaker 2>don't get this guy's writing. I'm like what he does

0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:25.000
<v Speaker 2>in Georgia's I do wonder because the British do offer freedom.

0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:27.640
<v Speaker 2>But it's again we're not talking like they're not putting

0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 2>this out over the Internet or whatever. Everybody's not looking

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.320
<v Speaker 2>at this like how much how how much of that information? Yeah,

0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:35.600
<v Speaker 2>and also, as we're going to talk about, their offers

0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:39.880
<v Speaker 2>of freedom are extremely dangerous because just the biological realities

0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:42.000
<v Speaker 2>of the time like fleeing and being held in the

0:31:42.040 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 2>British camp even if they're promising you your freedom is

0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:45.560
<v Speaker 2>not safe.

0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:47.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it's like, well, where you're gonna take me.

0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:51.400
<v Speaker 3>You're gonna take me back to Britain, like right, so

0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:52.960
<v Speaker 3>I gotta get back on that boat.

0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Nah yeah yeah, Like how much are these people being

0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:58.560
<v Speaker 2>told and by whom? And what are they being told by?

0:31:58.560 --> 0:31:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Guys like Jefferson?

0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:02.840
<v Speaker 3>Right, and you're all the same, but yeah, yeah, that's

0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:03.800
<v Speaker 3>how you're all the same.

0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Like, oh yeah, I'm at least gotta like shore up

0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:10.480
<v Speaker 2>my situation with this guy who I know, who's not

0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:14.920
<v Speaker 2>an unquantity to me, I know, no fucking dragoons, right, and.

0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.840
<v Speaker 3>Like still like my mom and daddy, my sister, you know,

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.120
<v Speaker 3>my brothers, my cousin, Like these are people I know.

0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:22.880
<v Speaker 3>So if anything, it's like I'm protecting the people I know,

0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Like yeah, it's like.

0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:29.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the their comfort because we're in the house is

0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:32.239
<v Speaker 2>very tied to the success of this guy. So if

0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:35.040
<v Speaker 2>I defend him and his wealth, that's kind of taking

0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:37.240
<v Speaker 2>care of my people too. Yeah, you know, these are

0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:41.239
<v Speaker 2>complicated things happening here. Yeah, this whole episode of like

0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:45.440
<v Speaker 2>fleeing repeatedly from the Capitol, just barely ahead of British forces.

0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:49.120
<v Speaker 2>Is a black mark on Thomas's warktime career. He gets

0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:52.440
<v Speaker 2>attacked for this a lot. Yeah, he's pilloried for failing

0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:54.760
<v Speaker 2>to defend his state because he's the guy in charge

0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 2>and he just keeps running away. You're the bro, and

0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:00.800
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter if it's like you didn't have a

0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:03.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of options. You know what else was like, he

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:05.760
<v Speaker 2>doesn't find a better option. He doesn't build a militia

0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:08.440
<v Speaker 2>into something that can fight these guys, and like you could.

0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:10.680
<v Speaker 2>You can argue whether or not it's reasonable enough to

0:33:10.720 --> 0:33:13.400
<v Speaker 2>go after him for that, but people do, right, man.

0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:16.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, slaying that Turkey didn't do much for you, did it?

0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:20.360
<v Speaker 2>No? No, he didn't learn how to deal with noon. Yeah, yeah,

0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 2>they're a little harder.

0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:21.880
<v Speaker 4>So.

0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:25.120
<v Speaker 2>In June of seventeen eighty one, Jefferson resigns as governor,

0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:27.320
<v Speaker 2>and the man who replaced him proved to be better

0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:29.720
<v Speaker 2>at the stuff he'd been bad at, raising a functional

0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:33.320
<v Speaker 2>militia to assist Washington's army. While the war entered its

0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:36.040
<v Speaker 2>end phase, Jefferson hit out in a place called Poplar

0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Forest and did what he was good at. He wrote.

0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:41.600
<v Speaker 2>The work he did on the run would later make

0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:45.240
<v Speaker 2>up his only published book, Notes on the State of Virginia.

0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And if you are a poly size student, you just

0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:49.640
<v Speaker 2>shuddered a little bit. Yes, you have read this son

0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:50.760
<v Speaker 2>of a bitch in college.

0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:52.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:55.080
<v Speaker 2>The book was started as a response to questions sent

0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:58.320
<v Speaker 2>by the French legation in Philadelphia for like all of

0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:00.479
<v Speaker 2>the different states. They reach out to represents in each

0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:03.320
<v Speaker 2>of the colonies and are like, hey, here's twenty three

0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.760
<v Speaker 2>questions about like geography and law, and like what's the

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:12.000
<v Speaker 2>culture like here? Right? And Jefferson he answers all of that,

0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of what he's doing is he's trying

0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:18.279
<v Speaker 2>to defend his new country to the French because he

0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:21.320
<v Speaker 2>has this feeling that French intellectuals see Americans is a

0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:24.680
<v Speaker 2>bunch of dumb yokels, right, Like they're backing us, they're

0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:27.200
<v Speaker 2>backing our play in a big way, but they don't

0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:30.719
<v Speaker 2>think much of us as an actual people, right. And

0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson is kind of trying to defend the what becomes

0:34:34.960 --> 0:34:38.279
<v Speaker 2>the American right as a person. There's this strain of

0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:42.040
<v Speaker 2>thought among naturalists in Europe that the plants and people

0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:44.800
<v Speaker 2>in the New World are inferior somehow to the plants

0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:47.080
<v Speaker 2>and people in the old world. Right. A lot of

0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:50.080
<v Speaker 2>this comes out as racism against Native Americans, Right, But

0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:53.279
<v Speaker 2>there's this widespread belief that even white people become less

0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:57.400
<v Speaker 2>intelligent when they migrate to the New World. One French

0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.440
<v Speaker 2>thinker Abbe ray Now cited this as proof of the

0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:02.719
<v Speaker 2>fact that quote or cited as proof of this fact

0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 2>that quote, America has not yet produced one good poet.

0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Of course, they're being made dumb by the land. They

0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:11.080
<v Speaker 2>don't even have poets over there.

0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:15.880
<v Speaker 3>Your music don't even slap bro like, yeah, yeah, that's hilarious.

0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 2>And it's Jefferson. His argument against this is funny because

0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:21.359
<v Speaker 2>he's like, man, it took how long did it take

0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:22.880
<v Speaker 2>the fucking Greeks to make a poet?

0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:23.120
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like they had a long time.

0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.720
<v Speaker 3>We're new yeah, first of all brands.

0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:31.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, He's like England was around a while before

0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:33.520
<v Speaker 2>you guys got a Shakespeare. You gotta give us some dime,

0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:37.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, anyway, more or less right about that. It

0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:41.239
<v Speaker 2>takes a minute, I guess. So after so wait year,

0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:45.239
<v Speaker 2>what years? This is like seventeen eighty one, Like.

0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.600
<v Speaker 3>We've been a country for five years yeah, yeah, barely right,

0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.000
<v Speaker 3>not even really, because we're fighting this war. You know

0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:52.080
<v Speaker 3>they've done yet.

0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:53.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, what do you expect?

0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:59.160
<v Speaker 1>They just haven't published yet. Maybe they're so working on their.

0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Crad Have you read all of them? I don't know.

0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:02.160
<v Speaker 2>It's trying to get paper.

0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:03.480
<v Speaker 4>Great roast.

0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:07.719
<v Speaker 2>He's right when he rebuts this kind of stuff, he's right,

0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:10.920
<v Speaker 2>but he has a harder time rebutting the other valid

0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:15.120
<v Speaker 2>allegation that the French make of American savagery, which is, well,

0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:17.120
<v Speaker 2>you guys have slaves, right.

0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:17.360
<v Speaker 4>Well, you.

0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:22.400
<v Speaker 3>Definitely ass backwards with this one, guys.

0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah. And to discuss how he tries to kind

0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:28.840
<v Speaker 2>of answer this, Henry Weinsack writes, having accused King George

0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.879
<v Speaker 2>of attempting to enslave them, American leaders laid themselves open

0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.520
<v Speaker 2>to the charge of hypocrisy by their failure to enslavery

0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:37.600
<v Speaker 2>in their own country. Samuel Johnson jibed, how is it

0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:39.799
<v Speaker 2>that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:43.800
<v Speaker 2>drivers of negroes. Slavery had been outlawed in England's homeland,

0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.080
<v Speaker 2>not in its home, though not in its colonies. In

0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:49.320
<v Speaker 2>the landmark seventeen seventy two Somerset decision by an activist

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:52.600
<v Speaker 2>judge who concluded that enslavement was such an egregious denial

0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:55.799
<v Speaker 2>of rights that slavery had to be specifically authorized by law,

0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:58.800
<v Speaker 2>and Parliament had never done so. When there were calls

0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:01.880
<v Speaker 2>for Parliament to pass enable legislation for black slavery, the

0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:05.279
<v Speaker 2>proposal was derided in a widely circulated joke which was

0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:08.360
<v Speaker 2>eventually published in the Virginia Gazette. If Negroes are to

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:10.680
<v Speaker 2>be slaves on account of color, the next step will

0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:12.920
<v Speaker 2>be to enslave every Mulatto in the Kingdom, then all

0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:16.480
<v Speaker 2>the Portuguese, next to French, then the brown complexioned English,

0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:19.080
<v Speaker 2>and so on, until there'll be only one free man left,

0:37:19.200 --> 0:37:21.239
<v Speaker 2>which will be the man of palest complexion in the

0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.200
<v Speaker 2>free three kingdoms.

0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:28.239
<v Speaker 3>Just your your boiled chicken. That's all is left. The

0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:31.520
<v Speaker 3>boiled chickens gotta do right. This is absurd, Guys like

0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:32.800
<v Speaker 3>this just doesn't make sense.

0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:36.920
<v Speaker 2>It is interesting because this is before scientific racism is

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:39.439
<v Speaker 2>starting to be a thing at this time, and it's

0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:42.080
<v Speaker 2>you don't get enough of like that. Of just like

0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>some regular guys writing as a columnist in a newspaper

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.520
<v Speaker 2>being like, you guys, see how ridiculous this is, right, Yeah,

0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:48.160
<v Speaker 2>Like just.

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:49.960
<v Speaker 3>Like I can't tell her, like I don't know not

0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:54.880
<v Speaker 3>none about it. You book learning. I'm just saying, yeah, yeah.

0:37:55.640 --> 0:37:57.080
<v Speaker 2>How far are we taking this? Because it seems like

0:37:57.120 --> 0:37:59.760
<v Speaker 2>you can make a case for basically everybody essentially.

0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:00.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:05.480
<v Speaker 2>So, speaking of scientific racism, this is the heel turn

0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:08.759
<v Speaker 2>moment really for Jefferson because while he's writing notes on

0:38:08.800 --> 0:38:11.080
<v Speaker 2>the state of Virginia, which he does we'll talk about

0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>in the next episode, he does include a plan to

0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:17.960
<v Speaker 2>end slavery in that, but he also starts his first

0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:22.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of dipping into like scientific racism, right, And this

0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:24.920
<v Speaker 2>is a big pivot from the all men are created

0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 2>equal guy, right, and so that the hoops he has

0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:30.439
<v Speaker 2>to jump through to do this are worth laying out.

0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:33.960
<v Speaker 2>He starts by admitting that slavery is a horror, right,

0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:36.480
<v Speaker 2>but he cites is one of its evils, and you're

0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:38.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of you kind of take from this. He sees

0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:40.920
<v Speaker 2>this as the worst evil is what it does to

0:38:41.000 --> 0:38:45.839
<v Speaker 2>young white men, right, because it makes them lazy, right right?

0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:50.960
<v Speaker 3>Okay, yeah, not that it their conscience, no, no, not

0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.560
<v Speaker 3>that it distorts their understanding of morality. And how the earth. Yeah,

0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:56.000
<v Speaker 3>it makes them lazy.

0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.920
<v Speaker 2>It does a little bit. But he's because he does say, like,

0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:01.200
<v Speaker 2>the man must be a pro who can retain his

0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:04.640
<v Speaker 2>manners and morals undepraved by such circumstances. And he's talking

0:39:04.640 --> 0:39:07.320
<v Speaker 2>about like growing up with like a slave that's raised

0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:09.239
<v Speaker 2>next to you. That's like you're you know, raised to

0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:12.359
<v Speaker 2>be your servant, right, that that's going to like how

0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:15.120
<v Speaker 2>can you not have your morals work worked? But then

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:17.560
<v Speaker 2>he does go right into like it makes white men

0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:21.200
<v Speaker 2>lazy and it forces them to be tyrants, right, they

0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:24.239
<v Speaker 2>have to be tyrants when they're raised this way. Yeah,

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:26.760
<v Speaker 2>it's just this focus on what it does to white

0:39:26.760 --> 0:39:28.680
<v Speaker 2>people that's so like off putting.

0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:33.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes, Like it's kind of burying the lead here, buddy, Like, yeah, words,

0:39:34.040 --> 0:39:36.480
<v Speaker 3>that's what you john from this, Okay. Yeah.

0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:39.640
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting to me that this argument does put him

0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:42.319
<v Speaker 2>at odds with some pro slavery advocates of his day,

0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 2>because there are people arguing in like newspapers and whatnot

0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:48.160
<v Speaker 2>at the day that like, part of why slavery has

0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:50.759
<v Speaker 2>to remain in the in the new country is that

0:39:50.880 --> 0:39:54.239
<v Speaker 2>working is too hard for white men. We can't do it.

0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:59.239
<v Speaker 2>We can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Win Sex cites a

0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:01.720
<v Speaker 2>series of letters to a Virginia paper during this period

0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:04.480
<v Speaker 2>in which one man argues, general utility is the basis

0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:06.960
<v Speaker 2>of all law and justice, and on this principle, the

0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:11.759
<v Speaker 2>right of slavery is founded. Well, it's really useful for me, right, Well,

0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:13.799
<v Speaker 2>how about people super convenient?

0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:18.400
<v Speaker 3>I hear everything you're saying, bro, I hear everything you're saying.

0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:23.160
<v Speaker 3>But like counterpoint is really it really it's really good

0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:23.759
<v Speaker 3>for me though.

0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Have you tried to work eight hours? It's like,

0:40:27.080 --> 0:40:29.120
<v Speaker 2>really it sucks. Have you, man?

0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:33.120
<v Speaker 3>Have you actually tried to harvest? Come back? Oh? Like

0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:34.959
<v Speaker 3>it really hard work.

0:40:35.280 --> 0:40:40.160
<v Speaker 2>It's hot doing things, man sucks. Yeah. There's another letter

0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:43.319
<v Speaker 2>that Winstt quotes. That's to a newspaper in Pennsylvania, where

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:46.840
<v Speaker 2>a Southerner argues that abolitionious to a quote totally blind

0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:50.520
<v Speaker 2>to our ease and interest. The certain consequence would be

0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that we must work ourselves. Come on, yeah, man.

0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:59.200
<v Speaker 3>Like, yeah, yo, that is that is my patron saying

0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:02.239
<v Speaker 3>Ricky Bobby when he was like when cale not ju

0:41:02.600 --> 0:41:05.360
<v Speaker 3>was like, how about how about how about I you

0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:08.040
<v Speaker 3>let me win? Sometimes he goes, Okay, yeah, I hear you.

0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:10.960
<v Speaker 3>But if if you win, then that means that I

0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:11.399
<v Speaker 3>don't win.

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:12.160
<v Speaker 2>I gotta lose.

0:41:12.239 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but like and you know, you know how I

0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:17.880
<v Speaker 3>roll in first and last, like I can't. But if

0:41:17.880 --> 0:41:22.040
<v Speaker 3>you're first and I'm not first, so we can't do that?

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.400
<v Speaker 2>Is I like reading stuff like that just because it's like, okay,

0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:29.080
<v Speaker 2>so that is as like blatantly selfish and evil as

0:41:29.120 --> 0:41:32.480
<v Speaker 2>the reality was. Right, that's a guy. There's no dressing

0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:33.920
<v Speaker 2>that up. He's like, yeah, but i'd have to work

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:35.640
<v Speaker 2>if we didn't have work.

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.120
<v Speaker 3>Bro, Like, do you want to work? Like there? Yes,

0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:42.680
<v Speaker 3>It's like a point that's made often in both of

0:41:42.719 --> 0:41:46.920
<v Speaker 3>our shows is that history is history is us. These

0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:52.600
<v Speaker 3>are just regular. There's nothing uniquely evil or there's no

0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:56.560
<v Speaker 3>unique malady about. They are just there us we are,

0:41:56.640 --> 0:42:00.959
<v Speaker 3>Like that is the most regular, regular answer that yeah,

0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:04.600
<v Speaker 3>that anyone would give today to where you're like, well, well,

0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:05.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to pick the fruit, you know what

0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:07.320
<v Speaker 3>I mean? Well, like I don't know, you know what

0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.479
<v Speaker 3>I'm saying, Like I want to go to the store

0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:10.880
<v Speaker 3>and buy it, like you pick the fruit.

0:42:10.960 --> 0:42:11.120
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:14.480
<v Speaker 2>That's so that's such an awful thing. Like what they're

0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:16.960
<v Speaker 2>saying is so awful, and it's so much uglier than

0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:20.600
<v Speaker 2>than Jefferson's flowery pros. But they're also they're honest, and

0:42:20.680 --> 0:42:23.600
<v Speaker 2>he is full of shit, and this is really this

0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:26.000
<v Speaker 2>is the full of shit stuff that comes out because

0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:28.040
<v Speaker 2>since he's not going to make that well I don't

0:42:28.080 --> 0:42:31.600
<v Speaker 2>want to work, you know, argument, he's going to like

0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:34.879
<v Speaker 2>have to dress it up, and he has these it's

0:42:34.920 --> 0:42:37.279
<v Speaker 2>it's this notes on the state of Virginia is weird

0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:39.200
<v Speaker 2>because he has these moments of like where he'll land

0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:43.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of in between racism and some kind of actual wisdom.

0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Like he takes on the common argument by white people

0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:50.120
<v Speaker 2>that that black people, if they're freed, they're they're inclined

0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:53.399
<v Speaker 2>to criminal behavior, right, And he actually makes a good

0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:56.360
<v Speaker 2>argument here, which is like that disposition to theft with

0:42:56.400 --> 0:42:58.480
<v Speaker 2>which they have been branded must be ascribed to their

0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:01.360
<v Speaker 2>situation and not to any pravity of the moral sense.

0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:04.400
<v Speaker 2>The man in whose favor no laws of property exist

0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:07.759
<v Speaker 2>probably feels himself less bound to respect those made in

0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:10.640
<v Speaker 2>favor of others. Come old, Well, if the law says

0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:12.439
<v Speaker 2>your property, why are you going to give a shit

0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:13.080
<v Speaker 2>about the law?

0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:21.839
<v Speaker 3>Yes, like yeah, again, just this like dizzying, like yes, yes, right, yes,

0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:22.399
<v Speaker 3>you're right.

0:43:23.160 --> 0:43:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. Now this descends very quickly though, into what, again,

0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:32.239
<v Speaker 2>is kind of proto scientific racism. Jefferson doesn't. He does

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:35.359
<v Speaker 2>argue that he believes He states his belief that black

0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.080
<v Speaker 2>people are inferior, but he also he hymns, He's like, well,

0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:40.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm a scientist, and right, we don't have conclusive data yet.

0:43:40.560 --> 0:43:42.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm just saying this might be what's happening, right, But

0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:45.640
<v Speaker 2>he does state his belief that black people and white

0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:48.800
<v Speaker 2>people are fundamentally different, with differences that are quote fixed

0:43:48.840 --> 0:43:51.880
<v Speaker 2>in nature. Now, what he actually means by this is

0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:55.440
<v Speaker 2>pretty shallow. His like, his his scientific justification is like,

0:43:55.680 --> 0:43:58.880
<v Speaker 2>well they look different, yeh, look at it, like yeah,

0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, white people have flowing hair and more

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:04.799
<v Speaker 2>elegant symmetry of form. And then he gets into the

0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:07.919
<v Speaker 2>real racist shit where he's like, black people inherently prefer

0:44:08.040 --> 0:44:10.239
<v Speaker 2>to have sex with white people, and he makes a

0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:14.040
<v Speaker 2>comparison to how orangutans prefer to have sex with human beings,

0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:18.040
<v Speaker 2>which is not true about orangutans either. No, one very

0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:19.560
<v Speaker 2>racist in so many ways.

0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:22.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, you're yeah, you're beating the dog and you're

0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:25.560
<v Speaker 3>like he likes it. See you look the dog likes it.

0:44:25.640 --> 0:44:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, yeah it's bad. And that orangutan phrase is

0:44:28.880 --> 0:44:31.479
<v Speaker 2>like the one you'll encounter most often when you read

0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:34.560
<v Speaker 2>the sections of Jefferson's racism, and it deserves to be read.

0:44:35.080 --> 0:44:37.479
<v Speaker 2>But in his book, win Seck brings up another point

0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:41.280
<v Speaker 2>about this passage that I had not considered. Jefferson probably

0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:43.759
<v Speaker 2>summoned up the fantastical image of an ape mating with

0:44:43.800 --> 0:44:46.920
<v Speaker 2>an African woman to deflect attention from the actual reality

0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.920
<v Speaker 2>of Virginia society, the pervasive rape of black women like

0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:52.680
<v Speaker 2>white men. Yes, and I hadn't thought about that, but.

0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's exactly what it is to be like. But

0:44:55.000 --> 0:44:58.799
<v Speaker 3>they like it, and I'm like, no, they don't. They

0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:02.760
<v Speaker 3>are property, yeah, like you like we like, which is obvious,

0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:05.440
<v Speaker 3>like like shit that none of us have to explain,

0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:07.319
<v Speaker 3>which is like they don't have agency. What are you

0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:11.239
<v Speaker 3>talking about? And and you are raping them and for

0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:13.680
<v Speaker 3>their own safety and the safety of their children. They

0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.600
<v Speaker 3>don't pretend like they like it. Yeah, you know, but

0:45:16.760 --> 0:45:18.799
<v Speaker 3>of course they don't like what the what are you

0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:21.920
<v Speaker 3>talking about? What are you talking about? Yeah?

0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:23.839
<v Speaker 2>I think one of the things I think about when

0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:26.360
<v Speaker 2>I read Jefferson's writing here, because he very much frames

0:45:26.360 --> 0:45:28.600
<v Speaker 2>this is I'm trying to look at this like a scientist, yeah,

0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:31.919
<v Speaker 2>trying to analyze these different relations between the raceists scientifically.

0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:34.120
<v Speaker 2>I think a little bit. You've heard that story about

0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:36.680
<v Speaker 2>that guy who studied like wolves and wrote this about

0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:40.000
<v Speaker 2>like alpha wolf behavior, and yeah, yeah, he gave us

0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:43.200
<v Speaker 2>this idea of the alpha male and then realizes later like, oh,

0:45:43.239 --> 0:45:45.799
<v Speaker 2>I was just looking at wolves in prison captivity, and

0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:48.040
<v Speaker 2>they act differently in prison than they do in the time.

0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:50.520
<v Speaker 2>They don't actually do this in the wild, right. He

0:45:50.680 --> 0:45:54.400
<v Speaker 2>is Jefferson is analyzing people that he owns and that

0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:57.760
<v Speaker 2>other people around him own and their behavior, and he's

0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:01.359
<v Speaker 2>he's attributing all of their behavior to like natural distinctions

0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:05.880
<v Speaker 2>and always ignoring like, well but they're enslaved well always,

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:06.640
<v Speaker 2>not always, but.

0:46:06.760 --> 0:46:09.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah factual And yeah, this is like this

0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:13.000
<v Speaker 3>is really this is the big heel turn moment.

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:15.200
<v Speaker 2>This is when he commits. This is when it becomes

0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:18.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of impossible ideologically for him to ever wind up

0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.480
<v Speaker 2>on the side of abolition, right because he is fundamentally

0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:24.840
<v Speaker 2>defending slavery, and when he defends slavery, he does so

0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:28.719
<v Speaker 2>by being racist. Right. One of his complaints is that

0:46:28.760 --> 0:46:31.719
<v Speaker 2>people with black skin are better at hiding their emotions.

0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Now that's not true. But what's happening here is number one,

0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:39.239
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't pay attention to them, right, because he owns them, no,

0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:41.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, and so he doesn't understand them as much

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:44.600
<v Speaker 2>as he understands white people. Right. And the other thing

0:46:44.640 --> 0:46:47.600
<v Speaker 2>is that, yeah, if you are enslaved, you probably get

0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:50.960
<v Speaker 2>good at hiding certain feelings because they're dangerous.

0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:55.920
<v Speaker 3>Right, absolutely, like the idea that which is completely normal

0:46:56.200 --> 0:47:02.000
<v Speaker 3>of yeah, self preservation and making decisions that are going

0:47:02.040 --> 0:47:07.160
<v Speaker 3>to uh yeah again, like because we are in fact

0:47:07.200 --> 0:47:09.760
<v Speaker 3>humans that are going to try our best to protect

0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.120
<v Speaker 3>our children. And if that means I got to do

0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:14.799
<v Speaker 3>a little shucking job to make sure that you feel placated,

0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:17.839
<v Speaker 3>is going to stop the overseer from coming over here?

0:47:18.520 --> 0:47:22.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, And yeah, it's one of those this kind

0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:26.640
<v Speaker 2>of belief again that he does not analyze in any way, right. Yeah,

0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.160
<v Speaker 2>it culminates in a very fortunate set of conclusions for him,

0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:32.520
<v Speaker 2>which is he decides, like, well, it just seems like

0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:34.960
<v Speaker 2>black people don't feel as much as white people, right.

0:47:35.280 --> 0:47:37.560
<v Speaker 2>We know they don't need as much sleep because we

0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:39.680
<v Speaker 2>don't let them sleep as often. We know they're less

0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:42.080
<v Speaker 2>sensitive to the heat and the cold. Yeah, you just

0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:45.160
<v Speaker 2>don't listen when they can complain they feel like they can.

0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:48.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and especially with you saying well, like like them

0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:50.680
<v Speaker 3>saying well, we I mean you kidding me. We couldn't

0:47:50.680 --> 0:47:53.520
<v Speaker 3>handle this, like yeah, and they're handling it, so I

0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:57.040
<v Speaker 3>guess you know. Yeah, we wouldn't stand for this. We

0:47:57.040 --> 0:47:59.280
<v Speaker 3>would look, we would not stand for this. And apparently

0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:01.800
<v Speaker 3>they're standing for soeah.

0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:04.839
<v Speaker 2>So it must be cool. Yeah, he starts. He's one

0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:06.319
<v Speaker 2>of the first people to make the argument that they

0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:08.800
<v Speaker 2>don't feel pain in the same way, which exists, I

0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.840
<v Speaker 2>mean less consciously. But like that's still a problem in

0:48:11.880 --> 0:48:15.879
<v Speaker 2>medicine today. He writes. Their griefs are transient. In other words,

0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:18.600
<v Speaker 2>they feel sad when they lose family members, but not

0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:22.360
<v Speaker 2>for a long time. They forget things quickly. Right now.

0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:26.560
<v Speaker 2>He also he has to acknowledge equality in a few areas. Right,

0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:29.759
<v Speaker 2>he says that they have an equal equivalent memory to

0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:33.120
<v Speaker 2>white people. Right, because he he employes black laborers doing

0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:36.719
<v Speaker 2>complicated tasks. Right, he can't not see that, right, there

0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:40.400
<v Speaker 2>can't be any use as workers. Yeah, number one, Right, yeah, yeah,

0:48:40.440 --> 0:48:42.319
<v Speaker 2>but he also has to argue, but that means they

0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:44.560
<v Speaker 2>don't have any they don't they lack reason, and they

0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:47.759
<v Speaker 2>can't imagine things. They really can't want anything better. And

0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:51.080
<v Speaker 2>part of his argument for this is I've never met

0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:54.400
<v Speaker 2>a black person who could understand Euclid's writing. It's like,

0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:57.000
<v Speaker 2>do you let him read Euclid? But do you teach

0:48:57.080 --> 0:48:59.839
<v Speaker 2>him like math? You know, like have you tried?

0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:01.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah about that?

0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? How about that?

0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:03.960
<v Speaker 4>Is it?

0:49:04.000 --> 0:49:06.799
<v Speaker 2>And also like, is it are there little white people

0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:07.960
<v Speaker 2>who haven't heard about Euclid?

0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:08.239
<v Speaker 4>Right?

0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:10.920
<v Speaker 2>The most of the country that's not can't read and

0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:13.680
<v Speaker 2>that certainly doesn't know a fucket Euclid? Yeah?

0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:13.960
<v Speaker 3>Is it?

0:49:14.000 --> 0:49:17.440
<v Speaker 2>Maybe a matter of access to education? Maybe you understand

0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:18.200
<v Speaker 2>is valuable?

0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:18.520
<v Speaker 4>You know?

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:19.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, oh my god.

0:49:19.920 --> 0:49:20.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:49:20.440 --> 0:49:24.640
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, Yeah, he's pretty bad. There is one moment here

0:49:24.680 --> 0:49:27.320
<v Speaker 2>where he's like, it's possible I'm wrong about this because

0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:29.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe enslaved people feel they have to lock up their

0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:35.320
<v Speaker 2>faculties and talents to endure. So he has the ability

0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:38.200
<v Speaker 2>to realize what's going on here. He even hints at it,

0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:40.480
<v Speaker 2>though he just can't accept it.

0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:43.640
<v Speaker 3>Those frustrating moments when you're just in somebody, when he

0:49:43.719 --> 0:49:46.319
<v Speaker 3>just peeks up and says, yeah, I mean I could

0:49:46.320 --> 0:49:49.279
<v Speaker 3>be tripping because I mean, clearly we're beating him to death,

0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:51.240
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, yeah.

0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it could be wrong about this very obvious thing. Yeah.

0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:59.600
<v Speaker 2>So nevertheless, he concluded that these differences weren't the result

0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:02.839
<v Speaker 2>of the fact that slavery gave few chances for creativity

0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:06.520
<v Speaker 2>or intellectual achievement. He decides nature had produced the distinction,

0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:09.080
<v Speaker 2>and he gives himself out again. He's like, that's just

0:50:09.120 --> 0:50:11.239
<v Speaker 2>what I think. I you know, now, maybe there will

0:50:11.280 --> 0:50:14.480
<v Speaker 2>be some more evidence later, but yeah, I consider that

0:50:14.640 --> 0:50:17.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of like, I don't know, a little cowardly.

0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.439
<v Speaker 3>Actually, it's very cowardly because of like, yeah, it's the

0:50:20.520 --> 0:50:25.160
<v Speaker 3>implications of the like freud of it all, like the

0:50:25.239 --> 0:50:29.960
<v Speaker 3>subconscious continuingly to peek out, like you know you're wrong,

0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:32.720
<v Speaker 3>Like you know you're wrong. You know what I'm saying

0:50:33.480 --> 0:50:36.080
<v Speaker 3>somewhere in there, Like you know you wrong, but you

0:50:36.160 --> 0:50:38.520
<v Speaker 3>also know you not trying to change your way of life,

0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:41.080
<v Speaker 3>you know, And like you said, the fullest shitty like

0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:42.719
<v Speaker 3>is on full display here.

0:50:42.880 --> 0:50:45.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're you're too good a writer to not

0:50:46.200 --> 0:50:49.400
<v Speaker 2>bring this up because you just inherently make good arguments.

0:50:49.440 --> 0:50:51.480
<v Speaker 2>But like you have to clamp it down. You can

0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:54.680
<v Speaker 2>almost feel him shoving that back down inside of himself

0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:58.560
<v Speaker 2>in order to make this work. And we'll talk a

0:50:58.600 --> 0:51:00.520
<v Speaker 2>lot more about this kind of and even a bit

0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:02.319
<v Speaker 2>more about Notes on the State of Virginia. But at

0:51:02.360 --> 0:51:04.560
<v Speaker 2>the end of this episode, let's just bring it to

0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:07.800
<v Speaker 2>the end of the Revolutionary War, which the US wins

0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:12.400
<v Speaker 2>at Yorktown while Jefferson is still scribbling away. In seventeen

0:51:12.440 --> 0:51:15.480
<v Speaker 2>eighty three, a peace was negotiated and the US gained

0:51:15.520 --> 0:51:18.960
<v Speaker 2>its independence. Notes on the State of Virginia was published

0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:22.400
<v Speaker 2>in seventeen eighty five and then republished several times, and

0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:25.719
<v Speaker 2>it formed a meaningful part of the backlash or counterswing

0:51:26.080 --> 0:51:29.080
<v Speaker 2>to a wave of abolitionist sentiment that gripped the new

0:51:29.120 --> 0:51:33.000
<v Speaker 2>country around the time of its independence. Right because of

0:51:33.040 --> 0:51:36.839
<v Speaker 2>the declaration, there's actually starts to be this argument. There's

0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:39.560
<v Speaker 2>even some will argue Virginia might have been on its

0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:44.319
<v Speaker 2>way to abolishing slavery. Right weeks before Jefferson turned in

0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:48.200
<v Speaker 2>his draft, a member of the Virginia State Legislature submitted

0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:51.680
<v Speaker 2>a draft constitution that would have ended hereditary slavery in

0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:54.919
<v Speaker 2>the state. It argued that men were born equally free

0:51:54.920 --> 0:51:57.719
<v Speaker 2>and independent, and that no compact could deprive them of

0:51:57.760 --> 0:52:01.200
<v Speaker 2>their rights. The legislature, though, added a line that men

0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:04.040
<v Speaker 2>only gained these rights when they enter into a state

0:52:04.040 --> 0:52:07.480
<v Speaker 2>of society, and slaves were defined as not part of society.

0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Still that's pretty fucked up. Yeah, Like these people are

0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:14.759
<v Speaker 2>literally what your entire society rests on.

0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:18.719
<v Speaker 3>But damn yeah, it makes it that much more like

0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:23.120
<v Speaker 3>human and like heinous to where it was like, bro,

0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:25.720
<v Speaker 3>it was people right there. It was like right there,

0:52:25.760 --> 0:52:29.920
<v Speaker 3>like y'all knew. It just was like, we'll cut that

0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:30.600
<v Speaker 3>part out.

0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Like yeah, and it's it's still this is not even

0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:36.520
<v Speaker 2>probably a few years after the constitution, yeah, Virginia is

0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:39.200
<v Speaker 2>changed or a few years after this happens, the constitution

0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:42.360
<v Speaker 2>in Virginia is changed to include black people as citizens

0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:45.760
<v Speaker 2>if they've been freed. Right, And if you were observing

0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:48.680
<v Speaker 2>all of this, like these debates and these pushbacks and whatnot,

0:52:49.080 --> 0:52:50.919
<v Speaker 2>in trying to predict the future, you might have guessed

0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:53.200
<v Speaker 2>in the mid seventeen eighties, well maybe Virginia is headed

0:52:53.239 --> 0:52:56.440
<v Speaker 2>to abolition. Winsett kind of argues that it was, and

0:52:56.440 --> 0:52:59.240
<v Speaker 2>that it's Jefferson who plays a major role in wrenching

0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:02.560
<v Speaker 2>it away from that course quote. At this critical moment,

0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:05.439
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson broke from the dominant progressive thinking of his time

0:53:05.480 --> 0:53:07.759
<v Speaker 2>to construct an image of the black person as the other,

0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:11.080
<v Speaker 2>a being with no place in American society. Putting a

0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:14.880
<v Speaker 2>scholarly sheene on the rationalizations of slaveholders, Jefferson made himself

0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the theorist and spokesperson for the reactionaries. Jefferson was not

0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:20.279
<v Speaker 2>as torn as he has taken to be, writes the

0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:23.239
<v Speaker 2>historian Michael Zuckerman. He was not as confined by his

0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:26.439
<v Speaker 2>culture as his apologists have often claimed in regard to race,

0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:28.880
<v Speaker 2>as in regard to so much else. He was a leader,

0:53:30.920 --> 0:53:32.200
<v Speaker 2>and that's part two.

0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:34.360
<v Speaker 3>I love that.

0:53:35.200 --> 0:53:36.760
<v Speaker 4>Maybe leaders are a bad idea.

0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, maybe leaders are a bad idea.

0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:39.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:53:39.080 --> 0:53:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Maybe race leaders are a bad idea.

0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:46.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah maybe. Yeah. May be like I'm smart, I read stuff. Yeah,

0:53:46.760 --> 0:53:48.120
<v Speaker 3>it might be a little more to it, you know

0:53:48.160 --> 0:53:48.680
<v Speaker 3>what I'm saying.

0:53:48.840 --> 0:53:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's such a little kind of a little shit.

0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:55.120
<v Speaker 2>He's a bitch ass he's Yeah.

0:53:55.040 --> 0:53:56.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean at the end of the day, at the

0:53:57.080 --> 0:53:57.560
<v Speaker 3>end of the day.

0:53:57.719 --> 0:53:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, at the end of the.

0:53:58.520 --> 0:54:00.040
<v Speaker 3>Day, at the end of the day, It's like I

0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:02.439
<v Speaker 3>could cover it all you have like like flower it up, man,

0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:05.160
<v Speaker 3>like twist your brain into a pretzel say that you

0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:07.720
<v Speaker 3>like while I'm doing it. But I'm not like those dudes.

0:54:07.800 --> 0:54:12.680
<v Speaker 3>And it's like, bro, like I mean, I like I

0:54:12.680 --> 0:54:14.880
<v Speaker 3>think of so many modern things I think of, like

0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:18.799
<v Speaker 3>this may feel very TMZ of it, but like I

0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:21.960
<v Speaker 3>think of like P Diddy and his apology and was

0:54:22.040 --> 0:54:24.400
<v Speaker 3>just like you know, I was it really in a

0:54:24.480 --> 0:54:25.000
<v Speaker 3>dark place.

0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:25.239
<v Speaker 4>Man.

0:54:25.360 --> 0:54:28.200
<v Speaker 3>You know, I've gone to therapy, and bro, like, don't

0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:32.040
<v Speaker 3>I won't hear about your therapy, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,

0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:35.680
<v Speaker 3>And I'm like and the like, okay, like it, there

0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:39.120
<v Speaker 3>was a lot of lightly dim places that you was

0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:41.759
<v Speaker 3>in before you got to the dark one that we saw. Brother,

0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:43.920
<v Speaker 3>like you don't you don't wake up and get to

0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:46.759
<v Speaker 3>that homeboy you ever said what I'm saying, that's not

0:54:46.880 --> 0:54:48.840
<v Speaker 3>that's not that's not a light switch, big dog like

0:54:48.880 --> 0:54:51.560
<v Speaker 3>you was building this homie, you know, and then I

0:54:51.560 --> 0:54:57.239
<v Speaker 3>think the like you know, like why like like it's

0:54:57.280 --> 0:54:59.600
<v Speaker 3>like if I could if I could grab America by

0:54:59.600 --> 0:55:02.600
<v Speaker 3>the cheek and be like the face cheeks okay and

0:55:02.640 --> 0:55:03.040
<v Speaker 3>be like.

0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:05.320
<v Speaker 1>Uh, I'm glad you're clarified.

0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:07.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like why you ain't join the I

0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.759
<v Speaker 3>C C. Big dog, Like why you don't want to?

0:55:11.160 --> 0:55:12.920
<v Speaker 3>Why you want to say like, tell me, tell me

0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:14.800
<v Speaker 3>why you don't want to call call this a genocide?

0:55:14.800 --> 0:55:16.160
<v Speaker 3>Tell me why you don't want to tell me why

0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:18.719
<v Speaker 3>you don't want to accuse anybody for crimes of crimes

0:55:18.719 --> 0:55:19.840
<v Speaker 3>agains humanity?

0:55:20.040 --> 0:55:23.480
<v Speaker 2>What's the same Why Jefferson does everything he does here

0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:26.439
<v Speaker 2>is exactly well, because it would mean making your life

0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:28.440
<v Speaker 2>a little less comfortable, yes, right, And it would mean

0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:31.080
<v Speaker 2>sacrifices the things you value that.

0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:35.000
<v Speaker 3>Maybe people will peak at you and be like exactly, so,

0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:37.080
<v Speaker 3>like why why why won't America do this?

0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:38.040
<v Speaker 4>Well?

0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:40.040
<v Speaker 3>Because I don't want you all to look at our

0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:42.520
<v Speaker 3>centuries of crimes of humanity? So I don't want to.

0:55:42.920 --> 0:55:45.279
<v Speaker 2>You know what I'm saying that some acess to like

0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:48.040
<v Speaker 2>we really use their airspace a lot, Like there's a

0:55:48.080 --> 0:55:50.839
<v Speaker 2>number of things for the reasons why it comes down

0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:53.880
<v Speaker 2>to yeah, yeah, like I don't want to. It'll be

0:55:53.880 --> 0:55:54.400
<v Speaker 2>hard for me.

0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:56.919
<v Speaker 4>It comes down to your lyric prop. It comes down

0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.640
<v Speaker 4>to I don't hate America just a man, she keeps

0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:01.399
<v Speaker 4>her problem, she doesn't.

0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:05.160
<v Speaker 2>And she don't just like dude, be who Jefferson is, like,

0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:08.200
<v Speaker 2>he's he has to because he's this big I am

0:56:08.239 --> 0:56:12.320
<v Speaker 2>the profit of freedom guy. Internationally, he has to write

0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:14.520
<v Speaker 2>to these dudes in France, we're going to be the

0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:16.360
<v Speaker 2>people a lot of the people who are involved in

0:56:16.360 --> 0:56:18.840
<v Speaker 2>the French Revolution, and who are these like and and

0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:21.680
<v Speaker 2>he has to explain how am I still the profit

0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:23.840
<v Speaker 2>of freedom while owning people. That's the big part of

0:56:23.880 --> 0:56:25.600
<v Speaker 2>what's happening here. And the answer is that, like, well,

0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:27.440
<v Speaker 2>they're not really the same kind and there's a lot

0:56:27.480 --> 0:56:29.680
<v Speaker 2>of problems, Like I agree slavery is bad, but we

0:56:29.760 --> 0:56:31.440
<v Speaker 2>really have to look at this very carefully because of

0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:34.480
<v Speaker 2>all of these biological differences, right, Which is all he's

0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:37.279
<v Speaker 2>doing is he's scientificizing the ship that every slave owner

0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:39.200
<v Speaker 2>would say, which is like, yeah, but I don't want

0:56:39.200 --> 0:56:42.120
<v Speaker 2>to work it is he you know, yeah, he's a farmer,

0:56:42.160 --> 0:56:44.960
<v Speaker 2>but he's not a farmer. Yeah, you know exactly, really.

0:56:45.600 --> 0:56:48.120
<v Speaker 4>Every butt guy, he's the I don't hate women, but

0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:49.040
<v Speaker 4>he's that guy.

0:56:49.200 --> 0:56:52.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it's kind of like but look, look, look, look,

0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:54.359
<v Speaker 3>if you let me finish, if you let me finish, yeah,

0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:56.319
<v Speaker 3>I would tell you. It's like all right, bros.

0:56:56.560 --> 0:56:58.640
<v Speaker 4>He's every guy I don't want to talk to a

0:56:58.680 --> 0:57:06.760
<v Speaker 4>bar right, Yeah, like yeah, yeah, those are the guys

0:57:06.800 --> 0:57:09.280
<v Speaker 4>you have to like they got all these big words,

0:57:09.600 --> 0:57:13.319
<v Speaker 4>but you just it's almost like, you know, like a

0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:15.719
<v Speaker 4>toddler out of control, Like I have to you have

0:57:15.760 --> 0:57:18.640
<v Speaker 4>to just keep them in focus and be like, hey man,

0:57:19.040 --> 0:57:20.680
<v Speaker 4>here's here's the cornerstone question.

0:57:22.280 --> 0:57:25.160
<v Speaker 3>How can you be the profit of freedom while keeping

0:57:25.200 --> 0:57:28.840
<v Speaker 3>someone enslaved? Yeah, like no, no, no, no, that's all we

0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:31.640
<v Speaker 3>talk about. That's like you can give me aught. How

0:57:31.680 --> 0:57:34.920
<v Speaker 3>are you the profit of freedom? Yeah, exactly.

0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:37.520
<v Speaker 2>And he's gonna have to We're gonna talk about his

0:57:37.560 --> 0:57:40.320
<v Speaker 2>time in France because he's the basically the ambassador. Yeah,

0:57:40.360 --> 0:57:42.200
<v Speaker 2>that's the whole time there is. He's like having that

0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:45.040
<v Speaker 2>argument with me. Yeah yeah, we'll get to that. But

0:57:45.160 --> 0:57:48.160
<v Speaker 2>first prop what's your pluggables? Where are they?

0:57:48.400 --> 0:57:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Oof?

0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:49.560
<v Speaker 2>When are they?

0:57:49.720 --> 0:57:49.959
<v Speaker 4>Man?

0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:52.040
<v Speaker 3>When are they they are whenever you want?

0:57:52.240 --> 0:57:52.320
<v Speaker 4>On?

0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:54.640
<v Speaker 3>Do you believe the Internet's dead?

0:57:55.520 --> 0:57:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I think large chunks of it are, right, Like you know,

0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:01.000
<v Speaker 2>that's that's kind of something like a third of old

0:58:01.560 --> 0:58:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Wikipedia links or whatnot or dead, Like, yeah, it turns

0:58:05.360 --> 0:58:07.480
<v Speaker 2>out it's not a very good place to store things.

0:58:07.640 --> 0:58:11.080
<v Speaker 3>No, But on this, you know, on the on whatever's

0:58:11.160 --> 0:58:13.000
<v Speaker 3>left of the internet. You can go to prop hip

0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:16.160
<v Speaker 3>hop dot com. Uh, and that'll get get you to

0:58:16.200 --> 0:58:19.480
<v Speaker 3>all the other places the politics will prop man, you

0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:22.200
<v Speaker 3>know where. I feel like this has been probably one

0:58:22.240 --> 0:58:26.800
<v Speaker 3>of my best seasons, if I do say so myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:58:26.840 --> 0:58:28.480
<v Speaker 3>we kind of kind of hit a stride.

0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:31.120
<v Speaker 1>He's coming to dude, super good things.

0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:34.200
<v Speaker 3>Come in hit a stride. Man. I'm really excited about this.

0:58:34.240 --> 0:58:36.520
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, the politics prop with the cool Zone crew,

0:58:37.080 --> 0:58:37.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, yep.

0:58:39.480 --> 0:58:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:58:40.040 --> 0:58:43.120
<v Speaker 4>And for us at cool Zone Media and all the things,

0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:47.120
<v Speaker 4>and for you Robert anything.

0:58:47.600 --> 0:58:52.320
<v Speaker 2>No, no, nothing like that Poland diaper bank. Behind the

0:58:52.360 --> 0:58:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Bastards go fundme. We're doing a go fundme diapers for

0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.800
<v Speaker 2>people who can't afford them. Always a good thing, always

0:58:58.800 --> 0:59:01.680
<v Speaker 2>a good things. Good to help people have diapers who

0:59:01.720 --> 0:59:02.520
<v Speaker 2>can't afford.

0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:08.360
<v Speaker 4>To buy them otherwise Bye bye.

0:59:09.560 --> 0:59:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

0:59:12.600 --> 0:59:15.880
<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:19.240
<v Speaker 1>dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.