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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Ah boy, it sure is cold in here, because we're

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Speaker 2: doing a cold open, prop. How do you feel about

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Speaker 2: cold opens?

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Speaker 3: Hey? Man, you know I don't like being cold at all,

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Speaker 3: but you know, opening is great.

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Speaker 4: How many you've done that bit? How many times are

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Speaker 4: you gonna do it?

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Speaker 3: How many times I've done.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I've done that exact bit.

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Speaker 4: Oh you have, because I remember being like fair Fair,

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Speaker 4: I remember being.

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Speaker 2: With our good friend prop.

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Speaker 3: You know, hey, I'll give you a cold opening question. Okay, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: what's the what's what's the worst thing you love?

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Speaker 1: What's the worst thing?

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Speaker 2: Man? I love so many bad things.

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Speaker 3: I tell you it is right now. It's harsh. Chemical

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Speaker 3: cleaning products.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, some of that. Yeah, those big those

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Speaker 2: big jugs of green ship that Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, give oh yeah, I need to kind of

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Speaker 3: make like nerve gas when I cleaned the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's right, that's right. Oh yeah, I love that

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Speaker 2: kind of shit.

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Speaker 4: Over overpriced skin care products sharp, Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: I like driving, which is killing everyone, but I really

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Speaker 2: enjoy it. So who's to say if it's bad or not?

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Speaker 2: Scientists scientists speaking of scientists, Most scientists will agree that

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Speaker 2: the Revolutionary War happened. Why would they disagree with that?

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Speaker 2: It definitely did. I was going to do speaking of

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Speaker 2: cold opens Valley Forge pretty cold, but also, you know,

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Speaker 2: the revolution lasted years, so I assume it was warm

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Speaker 2: for periods. Validy Forge is just like, you know, that's

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Speaker 2: one of the high points.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the moments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of freezing cold colonial militia, Yeah, keeps

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Speaker 2: me west. Yeah. That boat that they had to cross

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Speaker 2: and to kill some Hessians. A lot of Hessian killing

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Speaker 2: in early American history. Yeah. Anyway, Thomas Jefferson is not

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Speaker 2: around for a lot of that. He's involved with the

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Speaker 2: revolution obviously, but he's a lover, not a fighter, not

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Speaker 2: really a lover even he's a guy who likes to

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Speaker 2: write things.

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Speaker 3: Not like, oh no, man, he's not really a lover either,

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Speaker 3: pretty sigma.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very much so. He's the John Wick of

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Speaker 2: writing essays. Now, as the Revolutionary War starts to pick

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Speaker 2: up speed, most of the prominent figures urging rebellion held

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Speaker 2: a Continental Congress. Jefferson was not enough of like a

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Speaker 2: front burner kind of dude to get elected to that

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Speaker 2: in seventeen seventy four, but the next year, he gets

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Speaker 2: appointed as an alternate for another guy in the Second

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Speaker 2: Continental Congress, and that guy wounds up having to bounce,

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Speaker 2: which is how the future president first gets into Congress.

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Speaker 2: The fighting against Great Britain had just begun, and Washington

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Speaker 2: was chosen for the commander of the American forces, and

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Speaker 2: he's you know, Jefferson soon gets elected to be in

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Speaker 2: Congress properly, and he serves through the opening years of

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Speaker 2: the war, returning home in seventeen seventy six to deal

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Speaker 2: with the death of his mother, about whom he writes nothing.

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Speaker 2: So he is, you know, from this point on a

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Speaker 2: figure in the leadership of the revolution, but not yet

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Speaker 2: through he kind of gets in. It's still a lot

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Speaker 2: of his dad's like reputation that kind of secures him

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Speaker 2: this position. Ellis and American Sphinx describes him as entering

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Speaker 2: national affairs by the side door, his main claim to

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Speaker 2: fame in these early years. Yeah, that's an interesting way

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Speaker 2: to Yeah. The kind of the first thing he does

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Speaker 2: that really gets him some attention on his own merits

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Speaker 2: is that in seventeen seventy four he kind of almost

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Speaker 2: accidentally publishes a pamphlet called a Summary View of the

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Speaker 2: rights of British America. This had been written as a

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Speaker 2: set of instructions for the Virginia delegation to the First

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Speaker 2: Continental Congress, right because he's in He's held office in Virginia,

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Speaker 2: Virginia sending people to the First Continental Congress, which he

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Speaker 2: is not at, and he writes some instructions for how

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Speaker 2: they should what lines they should hold to in this

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Speaker 2: kind of debate over what posture delegates should take towards

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Speaker 2: Great Britain, and Jefferson urges them to take the most

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Speaker 2: radical course in writing, arguing that again Parliament has no

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Speaker 2: right to control or tax the colonies. But he doesn't

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Speaker 2: actually have the stones to get up in front of

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Speaker 2: everybody and argue his point, so he plays sick when

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Speaker 2: the debate in Virginia over this goes down, and this

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Speaker 2: track that he writes gets published later by his friends

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Speaker 2: who like basically are like, well, this is a good

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Speaker 2: thing you've written, and we agree with it, so we're

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Speaker 2: just going to put this out there, even though you

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Speaker 2: decided to play hooky when it was time to stand

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Speaker 2: up for it. Lame uh huh, that's TJ. Baby. Now

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Speaker 2: there's a lot to criticize about Jefferson. But we see

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Speaker 2: in this document the skill with word play that's going

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Speaker 2: to become evident to the world when the Declaration of

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Speaker 2: Independence gets published. But here's a sample line from this

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Speaker 2: first pamphlet. Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to

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Speaker 2: the accidental opinion of the day, But a series of

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Speaker 2: oppressions begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through

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Speaker 2: every change of ministers too plainly prove a deliberate, systematical

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Speaker 2: plan of reducing us to slavery. Now, hmm, that's interesting

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Speaker 2: that that's how he is. That's what he says that

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Speaker 2: England is trying to do to them, and he part

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Speaker 2: of kind of making England into the heel is that

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Speaker 2: he decides to make to blame them for the whole

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Speaker 2: state of slavery in the colonies. This is where Jefferson's

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Speaker 2: going to publish his first kind of statements against slavery

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Speaker 2: that are under his own name, arguing that not only

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Speaker 2: should the slave trade be stopped, but the new government

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Speaker 2: should push for the enfranchisement of the slaves that we have.

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Speaker 2: And he's arguing basically that like the king started the

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Speaker 2: slave trade, that's yah, yeah, yeah. He like we we

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Speaker 2: like it's almost talking about him, like he was like

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Speaker 2: a drug dealer who came in. Like, look, we can't

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Speaker 2: be blamed for getting hooked on this stuff. Maybe one's

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Speaker 2: pushing it, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we were born into this asylum, guys. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, that's why I was like, dude, it's the

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Speaker 3: King Thomas cognitive dissonance. Jefferson.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's the best.

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Speaker 3: He is the best. Added to be, like, well, that's

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Speaker 3: like slavery.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, he's got a hole between his course

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Speaker 2: corpus colossum, right, like his brain has just two rattling

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Speaker 2: separate albs.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Jefferson's writing gets shared widely, including by the most prominent

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Speaker 2: leaders of the revolution, but he himself is going to

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Speaker 2: initially be a marginal figure even after he enters Congress,

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Speaker 2: for the simple fact that he sucks at public speaking

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Speaker 2: and he has no heart for argument. While he awkwardly,

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Speaker 2: almost accidentally stumbles into revolutionary leadership, he devoted most of

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Speaker 2: his mental efforts to crafting his inherited home Monticello, into

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Speaker 2: a functioning vision of the agrarian ideal that he had

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Speaker 2: inherited in somewhat mutated form. From Romans like Cato and

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Speaker 2: Master of the Mountain, Henry Winsack writes, in the winter

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Speaker 2: of seventeen seventy four, Jefferson started his farm book, the

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Speaker 2: Plantation Ledger, he would keep until his death, writing out

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Speaker 2: a census of the forty five slaves he received from

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Speaker 2: his parents, one hundred and thirty five from the Whales estate,

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Speaker 2: and the five he had purchased he owned the future.

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Speaker 2: The census included the astonishing total of seventy nine children

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Speaker 2: under the age of fourteen. About forty percent of Jefferson's

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Speaker 2: slaves were children. Jefferson's architectural papers contain an intriguing document,

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Speaker 2: probably dating to the mid seventeen seventies, when the Monticello

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Speaker 2: household was taking shape. Jefferson sketched out plans for a

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Speaker 2: row of substantial, dignified Neo classical houses with stone or

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Speaker 2: brick hearths and ample windows for George and his family

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Speaker 2: and Betty Hemmings and her family. The enslaved people of

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Speaker 2: Monticello were nearly all members of a couple of different

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Speaker 2: slave families, including the Hemmingses and the Evanses, from whom

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Speaker 2: we get Jupiter. Jupiter is and Evans. They were an

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Speaker 2: inheritance from his wife's side of the family, and also

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Speaker 2: literally his wife's side of the family, because Martha's dad

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Speaker 2: has had as many as six children with the matriarch

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Speaker 2: of the family, Betty from American Sphinks quote, it was

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Speaker 2: an open secret within the slave community at Monticello that

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Speaker 2: the privileged status enjoyed by the Hemmings Face family it

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Speaker 2: derived from its mixed blood. Several of Betty's children, perhaps

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Speaker 2: as many as six, had most probably been fathered by

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Speaker 2: John Wales. In the literal, not just figurative sense of

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Speaker 2: the term, they were part of Jefferson's extended family. All

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Speaker 2: the slaves he eventually freed were hemmings Is, including Robert

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Speaker 2: and James in seventeen ninety four and seventeen ninety six, respectively.

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Speaker 2: If what struck the other slaves at Monticello was the

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Speaker 2: quasi independent character of the Hemmings clan with its blood

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Speaker 2: claim on Jefferson's paternal instincts, what most visitors tended to

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Speaker 2: notice was their color. Yeah, and what Ellis means here

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Speaker 2: is that the Hemmings family's very light skinned. Some of

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Speaker 2: them are described as looking white, a fact that has

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Speaker 2: suggested for some time that Thomas Jefferson continued his father

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Speaker 2: in law's tradition, and he definitely did. By the way,

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Speaker 2: we will be talking about that later because that really

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Speaker 2: becomes a factor when he's in France. In factual terms,

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Speaker 2: there's no other way to describe this than as rape

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Speaker 2: because Betty and Sally Hemings could not say no. That said,

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Speaker 2: we don't know how the Hemmings women themselves would have

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Speaker 2: talked about what happened to them because they weren't allowed

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Speaker 2: to r yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, or at least like

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Speaker 2: they didn't. You know, it's a black box to us, right,

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Speaker 2: like we just don't have And that's part of kind

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Speaker 2: of where I see some of like the evil of this,

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Speaker 2: right is in that fact.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the subsequential view of like like I'm tying

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Speaker 3: this all to like the subsequent view of like black

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Speaker 3: masculinity and like you know, and how they were played

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Speaker 3: in like coon songs and like menstrual shows that like

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Speaker 3: we were known for having just this amazing sexual prowess

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Speaker 3: that like had to be curved and while at the

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Speaker 3: same time being lazy, dumb, and docile, while at the

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Speaker 3: same time being incredibly strong and powerful man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like most historians that I've read, you know, and

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Speaker 2: this has started to change, thankfully because of some stuff

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Speaker 2: that came out in the late nineties, but you know,

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Speaker 2: even up until then, and Ellis's book comes out in

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Speaker 2: ninety six, which is like to cut ahead a little bit,

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Speaker 2: two years before DNA evidence makes it very clear what

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Speaker 2: Jefferson was doing with Sudah. There was, so he writes

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Speaker 2: Americans thinks in a period of time where there's actual

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Speaker 2: debate over whether or not this happened between historians, And

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Speaker 2: as a result, Ellis cuts Jefferson more slack for his

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Speaker 2: behavior than I think is reasonable. But he does make

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Speaker 2: a point to outlight one of the more fucked up

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Speaker 2: dimensions of the situation at Monticello, which I had not

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Speaker 2: really thought about as much before I read his book.

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Speaker 2: Jefferson had so designed his slave community that his most

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Speaker 2: frequent interactions occurred with African Americans who were not treated

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Speaker 2: like full fledged slaves, and who did not even look

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Speaker 2: like full blooded Africans because in fact they were not

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Speaker 2: in terms of daily encounters and routinized interactions. His sense

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Speaker 2: of himself as less of a slave master than a

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Speaker 2: paternalistic employer and guardian received constant reinforcement.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and stoking the Still there's still an issue of

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Speaker 3: fair skin and dark skin black people still an issue,

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Speaker 3: you know, Yeah, yeah it is.

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Speaker 2: And I I mean Jefferson you can almost see as

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Speaker 2: like he's certainly not alone, but certain but one of

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Speaker 2: the founders of that, like that conflict. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 2: it exists. His contribution to that exists so that he

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Speaker 2: can see himself not as a guy who owns people

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Speaker 2: and holds them in brutal bondage, but as like I'm

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Speaker 2: like the patriarch of the family, you know. I mean, well,

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Speaker 2: everybody's got a job, you know, you'll get it, come

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Speaker 2: with come work for Uncle Tom, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean it's like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll take care of you. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The word slave is a little crass, you know, It's

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Speaker 3: just it's crass. Like we prefer family, right, community.

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Speaker 2: We're all a family here at Manticello. Yeah. If you

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Speaker 2: think of if you watch that show the Bear, he's

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Speaker 2: like the he's like the uncle character who has he's

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Speaker 2: always bailing him out, right, Like that's how he wants

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Speaker 2: to be seen, you know. Yeah, And again this goes

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Speaker 2: back to this, this talent he has for crafting reality

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Speaker 2: for himself that differs from what you might say is objective,

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Speaker 2: factual reality, but that you know, he is able to

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Speaker 2: certainly make real for himself a lot of the time,

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Speaker 2: and he's also able to like extend through history. Like

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Speaker 2: a lot of people buy this vision that he puts out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I better like just like the just like the

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Speaker 3: Jefferson Bible. It's like, let me just let me just

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Speaker 3: remove the shit.

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Speaker 2: Out makes this Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah yeah. Between

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Speaker 2: Monticello and Philadelphia, Thomas Jefferson spent the mid seventeen seventies

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Speaker 2: flitting between the gritty real world of war and revolution

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Speaker 2: and his utopian fantasies. I am convinced he would have

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Speaker 2: been a podcaster today because he hated talking in front

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Speaker 2: of people, but he loved going on deep dives through

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Speaker 2: history books and then writing weird political rants inspired by

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Speaker 2: the experiences. In seventeen seventy five, the book he read

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Speaker 2: was Diverse Voyages by a guy named Richard hackelyut hackelut hackelute. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's the weird name. JK. L Uyt. Written in eighteen

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Speaker 2: fifty two, This is a set of three tracts that

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Speaker 2: were probably published separately at first going into the history

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Speaker 2: of European exploration of the Americas. Hey, everyone, Robert here,

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Speaker 2: I completely misspoke. Obviously eighteen fifties as well, after Jomas

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Speaker 2: Jefferson's death. Richard Hackelut's Diverse Voyages was written in fifteen

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Speaker 2: eighty two, which makes a lot more sense in context.

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Speaker 3: Sorry.

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Speaker 2: Hackeleute, who's the first professor of modern geography at Oxford,

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Speaker 2: was an early ideological advocate of English colonial expansion. He

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Speaker 2: was essentially an early propagandist for British imperialism. Despite this,

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Speaker 2: Jefferson loved him because his idiosyncratic reading of Hackeliut was

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Speaker 2: that the original colonists from England had traveled to the

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Speaker 2: Americas without help from the British government. Thus the colonies

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Speaker 2: from the beginning represented a clean break with the mother country,

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Speaker 2: and the English clean in Parliament, had no right to

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Speaker 2: govern them. America was the creation of this almost mythic

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Speaker 2: independent group of Saxon explorers, not a colonial project of

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Speaker 2: Great Britain.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, yeah, so it's like well not well, y'all, ay,

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Speaker 3: that's right, y'all ain't pay for us to come, and

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Speaker 3: we just kind of came, so like you don't get

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Speaker 3: to Yeah, nah, yeah, that is that is mythology, bro.

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Speaker 2: It is revisionist history, we might say in modern terms. Yeah, right, yes,

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Speaker 2: And it's one of those things nobody really buys this

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Speaker 2: except for his old mentor mister with right. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you've got it, Tom, but he's kind of like he's

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Speaker 2: like a little bit of a crank, right yeah. Now,

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Speaker 2: right around the same time to John Adams is kind

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Speaker 2: of going to do his own version of like searching

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Speaker 2: back through the history to look at like how was

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Speaker 2: the how were the colonies, you know, colonized initially, and

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Speaker 2: like how how much right does Great Britain have to

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Speaker 2: government tax us? And his work is done, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't call this, by our standards perfect history, but

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Speaker 2: it's done with more rigor than Jefferson's's, right, you might

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Speaker 2: equivocate Jefferson's work here to almost like sovereign citizen shit, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the main reason it's not seen that way, even

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Speaker 2: though it is a historical is that his ultimate contention,

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Speaker 2: which is that the colony should be independent, was not

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Speaker 2: controversial among the people who win. Right, But it is

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Speaker 2: important to see that he is just inventing history here

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Speaker 2: for the purpose of political experience.

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Speaker 3: Right because Yeah, because he could argue that, like, hey, listen,

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Speaker 3: from Britain's perspective, they're saying this, this, and this. He's like,

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Speaker 3: from our perspective, he is what we was actually doing.

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Speaker 3: So he can make that argument as like, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 3: not just making this up from out the thin air,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of was, but like he could be like, well, no,

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Speaker 3: like that's how they viewed it. Their view is incorrect.

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Speaker 3: We knew what we was doing and they had a

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Speaker 3: limited perspective. I know what we was doing, you know,

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Speaker 3: And you could make that again, and it's because we,

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Speaker 3: like you said, we've already they've already accepted the point.

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Speaker 3: The point is we supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: We got to get out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Who's homeboy's name? I forget how he's.

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Speaker 2: Name Hackle yet, huh Hackle yet?

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was one homeboy that was like and they

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Speaker 3: ended up burning his books. God, what is his name?

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Speaker 2: Oh you're talking about Thomas Pain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was just like, yeah, Pain is dope.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was like, I'm here for money. I don't understand, Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know about the pirits and ship. I don't

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Speaker 3: understand about this independent ship. Y'all doing this, y'all doing

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Speaker 3: the Natives wrong. They seem to be nothing like what

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Speaker 3: y'all said. I came to make some money.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Me and homies came for money. I don't understand what

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Speaker 3: the rest of y'all is doing. Yeah, and they burnt

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Speaker 3: his books. Boy, it was oh yeah, I mean, I'll

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Speaker 3: be telling everybody.

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Speaker 2: Jefferson's actually gonna it's weird because like Pain is much

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Speaker 2: more of a radical than Jefferson and is, by the way,

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Speaker 2: an abolitionist. Yeah, Jefferson's gonna be getting a lot of

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Speaker 2: trouble later in his career for going to bat for

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Speaker 2: Thomas Payin after on his Pain loses a lot of

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Speaker 2: his support because he's, I mean, he's too much of

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Speaker 2: a radical. He's like very critical of Christianity, Yeah, in

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Speaker 2: ways that are pretty modern actually, yeah, exactly his views.

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, man, at some point, at some point we

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Speaker 3: got I figure out how to do a deep dive

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Speaker 3: on him.

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Speaker 2: Because he was just fascinating thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like y'all tripping like I don't understand, like you

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Speaker 3: supposed to be the ones you supposed to be to

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Speaker 3: God believers, like I don't believe none of that. And

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Speaker 3: look how you treat these people that Yeah, weird to me.

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Speaker 2: He's like the most reasonable man in the seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: yeah right, or at least the most reasonable white guy

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Speaker 2: in the seventeen yeh yeah. Yeah. So Jefferson's skill and

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Speaker 2: making up bullshit to justify his beliefs after the fact

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Speaker 2: would reach its apex with the Declaration of Independence and

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Speaker 2: prop we are finally getting to that. That's the money

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Speaker 2: shot of any history of Jefferson. But looking at my

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Speaker 2: little clock here, because so if he's not around to

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Speaker 2: warn us and we are flying like blind here and ads.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we should probably do some mads.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, take some ads and call me in the

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Speaker 2: morning or in like four minutes after you skip ahead

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Speaker 2: to the part without ads, we're back. So the whole

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Speaker 2: Declaration of Independence project kicks off in seventeen seventy six

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Speaker 2: when Jefferson was appointed with four other delegates to write

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Speaker 2: a declaration of Independence. And it is a sign of

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Speaker 2: how good he is as a writer that the other

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Speaker 2: committee members, which include Ben Franklin and John Adams, all

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Speaker 2: agree to let him handle the pros. I think Franklin

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Speaker 2: says he does it because he can't stand being edited, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to write something for somebody else to edit,

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Speaker 2: you know, And this is going to go through, Like

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Speaker 2: the Congress is going to have to approve this, and

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Speaker 2: they're going to make changes. Yeah, John Adams, I think

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Speaker 2: is like Jefferson is just such a good writer, will

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Speaker 2: let you do it. He spends the rest of his

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Speaker 2: life regretting this, by the way, which you would you know.

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Speaker 2: In his first draft of the document, Jefferson spent a

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Speaker 2: good number of words blaming King George the Third for

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Speaker 2: sparking and growing the slave trade, framing it as a

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Speaker 2: great evil forced on the colonies by their vile king.

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Speaker 2: Now this specific charge is silly, but Jefferson's description of

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Speaker 2: the slave trade is not. He describes quote a market

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Speaker 2: where men should be bought and sold as a hideous thing,

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Speaker 2: in large part due to the brutality involved in transporting them.

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Speaker 2: Henry Winsick writes, for many slaves suffered, as Jefferson wrote,

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Speaker 2: miserable death in their transportation. Every vessel tossed overboard twenty

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Speaker 2: fifty one hundred corpses in its passage across the Sea.

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Speaker 2: Jefferson most likely learned of the shrinkage of inventory from

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Speaker 2: his father in law, John Wales, and Jefferson describes slavery

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Speaker 2: in his initial draft of the declaration as an execrable commerce.

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Speaker 2: It's shitty, he says, it's shitty, right, yeah, and that's

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Speaker 2: good and accurate. But all of this writing is cut

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Speaker 2: from the final draft, as an article for The Miller

386
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Speaker 2: Center explains, after deleting Jefferson's biting attack on King George

387
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Speaker 2: the Third for trafficking slaves and debating other issues of

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Speaker 2: substance for three days, Congress approved the unanimous Declaration of

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Speaker 2: the Thirteen United States of am America on July fourth.

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Speaker 2: The Continental Congress never calls it the Declaration of Independence,

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Speaker 2: by the way, it's just a better name. Sometimes that happens. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: these guys sucked at titling. Only Thomas would have been

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Speaker 2: a good podcaster strong on that one.

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Speaker 3: No, that's real, Yeah, that's real because he's actually like

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Speaker 3: because yeah, he's one of those dudes who are like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: damn on paper, bro, like you yeah, you got it.

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Speaker 2: Fam that's right, especially, you know, and at this point

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Speaker 2: he still is a guy who could have wound up.

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Speaker 2: He's a guy who inherited a lot of enslaved people.

400
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Speaker 2: He is writing now and he's taken at least minimal

401
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Speaker 2: legal steps to trying to end the practice, and he's

402
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Speaker 2: now made some really bold statements about it. He could

403
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Speaker 2: have gone and he could have been like an early abolition.

404
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Speaker 2: He could and a struke and might have pushed a

405
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Speaker 2: lot of the country, Like God only knows, right, given

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Speaker 2: the degree of you know.

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Speaker 3: We minted it in the first Yeah, we mentioned it

408
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Speaker 3: in the first first episode. I just I like, I

409
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Speaker 3: need to get the quote right. But the one which

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Speaker 3: we'll probably get to, the one where he was just

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Speaker 3: like essentially like if yeah, yeah, God is there, if

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Speaker 3: God is who he says he is, we're about to

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Speaker 3: get judged.

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Speaker 2: Yeah okay, yeah, no, no, we're we'll be We'll be

415
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Speaker 2: putting that in its context where yeah yeah, ok So.

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Speaker 2: The primary reason his condemnations of slavery were cut from

417
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Speaker 2: the final draft was that South Carolina and Georgia refused

418
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Speaker 2: to close their slave markets. Despite the fact that this

419
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 2: final draft was compromised Jefferson's statement in the Declaration that

420
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Speaker 2: all men were created equal and endowed by the Creator

421
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Speaker 2: with an alienable rights took off like a summer brushfire

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Speaker 2: among progressives of his day, and not just in the Americas. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: before too long, it would be cited by several states

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Speaker 2: who were early to after the war. It's going to

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Speaker 2: be cited by like the first states to abolish slavery.

426
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Speaker 2: Is like why, and they're like, well, based on this declaration.

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Speaker 3: We said, that's what you said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this stuff seems like we shouldn't have this. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Frederick Douglas's you know, Fourth of July speech was just like, bro,

430
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Speaker 3: that's this what y'all said.

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Speaker 2: This This line seems pretty clear. Yeah, that said but

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Speaker 2: you know this is again that generations of abolitionists will

433
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: take a lot out of that line. Jefferson himself is

434
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 2: never really an abolitionist, right, far from it. In fact,

435
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: this is a bit puzzling given where he sits in

436
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: seventeen seventy six, because he kind of it feels like

437
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 2: he might have right, there's a moment here where it

438
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: feels like he could have tipped that way. Historian David

439
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: Breon Davis notes, quote he was one of the first

440
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: statesmen in any part of the world to advocate concrete

441
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 2: measures for restricting and eradicating Negro slavery, which is not,

442
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 2: you know, nothing, but in the seventeen eighties it kind

443
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: of becomes nothing because he sings a very different tune

444
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 2: during the last years of the seventeen seventies. Then he's

445
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: going to serve in the Virginia House of Delegates, where

446
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 2: he championed progressive measures like freedom of religion and a

447
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: radical free public education system for all white male Virginians.

448
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 2: He also crusaded against legally mandated primogenitor which saw landed

449
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: estates passed on exclusively to eldest son. Jefferson had good

450
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: reasons for all this. He saw inherited wealth is dangerous

451
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: despite benefiting from it himself, and he opposed state religion,

452
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: both because it violated individual liberty and as the Miller

453
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: Center notes, he also feared that religion would hinder the

454
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: development of a national elite, a moral and ethical group

455
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 2: of aristocrats who would lead the nation. And this is

456
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: because again Jefferson is this as ellis as a sphinx.

457
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: This gives us kind of an unegalitarian explanation for some

458
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: of the things he said that seem egalitarian, even some

459
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: of the policies he pursued that were good, which is

460
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: that he's not a guy who believes everyone is and

461
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: should be equal. He believes everyone should have an equal shot.

462
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: All the white men, they should have anything shot it

463
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: becoming a part of the aristocracy, and that aristocracy is

464
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: going to be based on their natural levels of intelligence

465
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: and ability.

466
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 4: Right.

467
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: But we need an aristocracy, right, it just needs to

468
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: be a natural.

469
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 3: One, right, Yeah, it's not just built on the fact

470
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 3: that your daddy came from this place.

471
00:23:59,080 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 4: Yea.

472
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that that is kind of what he says

473
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: he's arguing for, right, and Heaver views artificial methods of

474
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: curtailing membership in this elite as bad. He also sees

475
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: himself as a natural member of the aristocracy.

476
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 3: Yeah except for me, though, Like, and I should be.

477
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't errate everything, but like I'm clearly

478
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: so capable, right.

479
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I'm different.

480
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: I'm different. I'm built a little different than these these

481
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: other first sons who got rich, Yeah because of their daddies.

482
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: I'm built a little different.

483
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

484
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: In seventeen seventy nine, Jefferson was somewhat to his own frustration,

485
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: elected governor of Virginia. This is a bad time to

486
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 2: be the governor of Virginia because it doesn't look great

487
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: in seventeen seventy nine, right, like, Virginia's economy is in

488
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 2: the shitter. The British are doing pretty well in the field.

489
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: There's a counter revolution by Tories, which of these like

490
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: loyalist assholes. And Jefferson not a great warrior. He's not

491
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 2: like a warrior poet type guy. There's like one campaign

492
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 2: that he like supports in southern Virginia and it's a

493
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: disaster because he's he's not really good at that stuff. Now,

494
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: when he first goes to I think Williamsburg and then

495
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: he goes to Richmond as governor, he's like the last

496
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: governor to live in the Williamsburg mansion. Jefferson brings his

497
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: some of his slaves with him, right, members of the

498
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: Hemmings and Granger families mostly, and it's from them that

499
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: we get a lot of the memories of Jefferson during

500
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: this chaotic time. In January seventeen eighty one, Benedict Arnold

501
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: lands in Virginia with a whole buttload of Brits Virginia's

502
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: militia were mostly engaged in conflict with Native Americans, and

503
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 2: Jefferson showed no aptitude for gathering these s gathered forces

504
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: together and welding them into a functional army, which, to

505
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 2: be fair, is hard, but he doesn't do it. So

506
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: what he does do is send his family away and

507
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: he cloisters himself in the attic of the governor's mansion

508
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: with a spyglass. When the British finally came, it took

509
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 2: only a few cannonballs to send every white man in

510
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: town fleeing for the hills. Jefferson included several of his

511
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: house slaves, acted like to kind of protect the family wealth.

512
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: When he leaves them behind. One of them. We get

513
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: this story from Isaac, who's five at the time, and

514
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: he describes the British invasion as an awful sight. It

515
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: seemed like the day of judgment was come, which is

516
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: not all that different from how my family members who

517
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: were there speak of the British invasion in the nineteen sixties,

518
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, talking about the Beatles was a Beatles Beatles bit.

519
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 2: Jefferson has fled the scene, and he has left behind

520
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: like this enslaved family, including this little boy, Isaac, who's

521
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: from whom we get most of this story, and Isaac's father, George,

522
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: I believe this is George Granger went through the house

523
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 2: collecting valuables, primarily the family's silver, which he hid under

524
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: There's like a bed in the kitchen with like a

525
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: hide a bed under it, and he like hides it

526
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: underneath that. So when the British arrive, he lies and

527
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: he's like, my master's you know, fled and he took

528
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 2: all the silver with him. I don't know what's going on.

529
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: And these British soldiers they rampaged through the mansion, but

530
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: they don't find the silver. George then flees, leaving his

531
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,719
Speaker 2: family behind, to find Jefferson's family at monte Cello and

532
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: help them. Right, So he he leaves his family to

533
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: go find and help Jefferson and his family get out

534
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: of Monticello. And while George is away, his wife and

535
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: son are taken captive by British forces. What now again?

536
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: This is like it's no, like this is it's it's

537
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: such a confusing thing because George has he's an opportunity

538
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: one a decent number of enslaved people take to find

539
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 2: his freedom, right, to get himself and his family out

540
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: of there, either with the British or just by using

541
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: the chaos to get out.

542
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, he doesn't.

543
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: Not only does he not do that, but he like

544
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: leaves his family kind of trusting that the British will,

545
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, not fuck with them too much, and they

546
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: wind up getting captured. And it's we're gonna talk about

547
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: all this because this is like, this is not He's

548
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: not the only person that is going to happen to

549
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: This is a major part of the history for enslaved

550
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 2: people during this period is like what happens, you know,

551
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: when they try to decide to flee, what happens if

552
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: they go over to the British. We're gonna talk about

553
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: all of that, but first it's time for some ads.

554
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: I'm back, I see.

555
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sophie's our second ad break.

556
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 4: So wow, that's so nice.

557
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: I lost power for however long I was gone for.

558
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, for the audio people, it'll be nothing, but

559
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: for the other.

560
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 4: People, don't miss my, my, my, my wonderful remarks.

561
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: Speaking of losing power, Thomas Jefferson has lost power because

562
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: he just had to flee from the Governor's mansion because

563
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: the British Benedict Arnold came rolling around there. So yeah.

564
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: The next couple of months of Jefferson's life are chaotic,

565
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: with British forces rating every Jefferson property they could find,

566
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: and Thomas keeping himself and his family just barely out

567
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: of their grasp. This was obviously hard on them, both

568
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: physically as well as mentally. Their new worn daughter Lucy

569
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: died in April, and the whole constantly on the road

570
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: thing did not help with that. Jefferson and his men

571
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: retook the capitol after the British left, but when they returned,

572
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: when the British come back, he has to flee again,

573
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: and he makes it. He flees back to Monticello. He

574
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: wounds up like leave, fleeing Monticello minutes ahead of this

575
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: group of British dragoons, which is like a kind of

576
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: mounted soldier. And here again one of the people that

577
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: he owned acted to protect his absent owner from the

578
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: book master of the Mountain quote. When the raiders swarmed

579
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: into the house at Monticello, it quickly became a parent

580
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: that once again Jefferson had eluded them. But they knew

581
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: he could not be very far off. So one of

582
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: the dragoons jammed a pistol into Martin Hemmings's chest and

583
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: said he would shoot if Hemmings did not tell them

584
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: where the governor had gone. Fire away. Then Hemmings replied

585
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: and refused to say anything else. Martin Hemmings was not

586
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: one of the half siblings of Missus Jefferson. His mother

587
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: had borne him before she began her relationship with John Wales.

588
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: Kin ship tied to the Jeffersons was not as direct

589
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: as that of his younger siblings fathered by Wales. As

590
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: the Jefferson grandchildren recounted the story, Hemming stood his ground fiercely,

591
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 2: answering gaze for a glance, and not receding a hair's

592
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: breadth from the muzzle of the cocked pistol. Unbeknownst to

593
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: the British, another servant named Caesar lay in silence beneath

594
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: their feet under the floor of the portico with silver.

595
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: He and Martin had just finished hiding when the raiding

596
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: party rushed in.

597
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: Wow.

598
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, that's like palsy.

599
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's impossible to get into their heads. Like

600
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: it's impossible, you know, and especially with a modern brain,

601
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: like it's just it's impossible. But you can say you're

602
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 3: just another slave master anyway, So like, oh, yes, you're

603
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: not my you're not my rescue, you know what I'm saying.

604
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: And and then you're like and even if you were,

605
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: it's like, well fuck you for like storm in my house,

606
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: like you know what I'm saying, Like I still live here,

607
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: Like I mean, fuck this place. But it's but I

608
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: still live here, and you ain't finna, just like I

609
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: don't know you, like you don't get to do this,

610
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. It's like, you know, like

611
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: if we gonna tear this place down, we gonna take

612
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: this place down, you won't get to tear the place down.

613
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 3: You know.

614
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do wonder because obviously you don't get you

615
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: don't get this guy's writing. I'm like what he does

616
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: in Georgia's I do wonder because the British do offer freedom.

617
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: But it's again we're not talking like they're not putting

618
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: this out over the Internet or whatever. Everybody's not looking

619
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: at this like how much how how much of that information? Yeah,

620
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: and also, as we're going to talk about, their offers

621
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: of freedom are extremely dangerous because just the biological realities

622
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: of the time like fleeing and being held in the

623
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: British camp even if they're promising you your freedom is

624
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: not safe.

625
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like, well, where you're gonna take me.

626
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: You're gonna take me back to Britain, like right, so

627
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: I gotta get back on that boat.

628
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: Nah yeah yeah, Like how much are these people being

629
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: told and by whom? And what are they being told by?

630
00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: Guys like Jefferson?

631
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: Right, and you're all the same, but yeah, yeah, that's

632
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: how you're all the same.

633
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: Like, oh yeah, I'm at least gotta like shore up

634
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: my situation with this guy who I know, who's not

635
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: an unquantity to me, I know, no fucking dragoons, right, and.

636
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: Like still like my mom and daddy, my sister, you know,

637
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: my brothers, my cousin, Like these are people I know.

638
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 3: So if anything, it's like I'm protecting the people I know,

639
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: Like yeah, it's like.

640
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, the their comfort because we're in the house is

641
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 2: very tied to the success of this guy. So if

642
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: I defend him and his wealth, that's kind of taking

643
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: care of my people too. Yeah, you know, these are

644
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,239
Speaker 2: complicated things happening here. Yeah, this whole episode of like

645
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: fleeing repeatedly from the Capitol, just barely ahead of British forces.

646
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: Is a black mark on Thomas's warktime career. He gets

647
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: attacked for this a lot. Yeah, he's pilloried for failing

648
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: to defend his state because he's the guy in charge

649
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: and he just keeps running away. You're the bro, and

650
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if it's like you didn't have a

651
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: lot of options. You know what else was like, he

652
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: doesn't find a better option. He doesn't build a militia

653
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: into something that can fight these guys, and like you could.

654
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: You can argue whether or not it's reasonable enough to

655
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: go after him for that, but people do, right, man.

656
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, slaying that Turkey didn't do much for you, did it?

657
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 2: No? No, he didn't learn how to deal with noon. Yeah, yeah,

658
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: they're a little harder.

659
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 4: So.

660
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: In June of seventeen eighty one, Jefferson resigns as governor,

661
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: and the man who replaced him proved to be better

662
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: at the stuff he'd been bad at, raising a functional

663
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: militia to assist Washington's army. While the war entered its

664
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: end phase, Jefferson hit out in a place called Poplar

665
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: Forest and did what he was good at. He wrote.

666
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: The work he did on the run would later make

667
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: up his only published book, Notes on the State of Virginia.

668
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: And if you are a poly size student, you just

669
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: shuddered a little bit. Yes, you have read this son

670
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: of a bitch in college.

671
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

672
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: The book was started as a response to questions sent

673
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: by the French legation in Philadelphia for like all of

674
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 2: the different states. They reach out to represents in each

675
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: of the colonies and are like, hey, here's twenty three

676
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: questions about like geography and law, and like what's the

677
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: culture like here? Right? And Jefferson he answers all of that,

678
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: but a lot of what he's doing is he's trying

679
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: to defend his new country to the French because he

680
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 2: has this feeling that French intellectuals see Americans is a

681
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: bunch of dumb yokels, right, Like they're backing us, they're

682
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: backing our play in a big way, but they don't

683
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: think much of us as an actual people, right. And

684
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 2: Jefferson is kind of trying to defend the what becomes

685
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: the American right as a person. There's this strain of

686
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: thought among naturalists in Europe that the plants and people

687
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: in the New World are inferior somehow to the plants

688
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: and people in the old world. Right. A lot of

689
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: this comes out as racism against Native Americans, Right, But

690
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: there's this widespread belief that even white people become less

691
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: intelligent when they migrate to the New World. One French

692
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: thinker Abbe ray Now cited this as proof of the

693
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: fact that quote or cited as proof of this fact

694
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: that quote, America has not yet produced one good poet.

695
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: Of course, they're being made dumb by the land. They

696
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: don't even have poets over there.

697
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 3: Your music don't even slap bro like, yeah, yeah, that's hilarious.

698
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: And it's Jefferson. His argument against this is funny because

699
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 2: he's like, man, it took how long did it take

700
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: the fucking Greeks to make a poet?

701
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: Right?

702
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they had a long time.

703
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 3: We're new yeah, first of all brands.

704
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, He's like England was around a while before

705
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: you guys got a Shakespeare. You gotta give us some dime,

706
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: you know, anyway, more or less right about that. It

707
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: takes a minute, I guess. So after so wait year,

708
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: what years? This is like seventeen eighty one, Like.

709
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: We've been a country for five years yeah, yeah, barely right,

710
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: not even really, because we're fighting this war. You know

711
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: they've done yet.

712
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what do you expect?

713
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: They just haven't published yet. Maybe they're so working on their.

714
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: Crad Have you read all of them? I don't know.

715
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: It's trying to get paper.

716
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: Great roast.

717
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: He's right when he rebuts this kind of stuff, he's right,

718
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: but he has a harder time rebutting the other valid

719
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: allegation that the French make of American savagery, which is, well,

720
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: you guys have slaves, right.

721
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 4: Well, you.

722
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 3: Definitely ass backwards with this one, guys.

723
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And to discuss how he tries to kind

724
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 2: of answer this, Henry Weinsack writes, having accused King George

725
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 2: of attempting to enslave them, American leaders laid themselves open

726
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: to the charge of hypocrisy by their failure to enslavery

727
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: in their own country. Samuel Johnson jibed, how is it

728
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the

729
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 2: drivers of negroes. Slavery had been outlawed in England's homeland,

730
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: not in its home, though not in its colonies. In

731
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 2: the landmark seventeen seventy two Somerset decision by an activist

732
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: judge who concluded that enslavement was such an egregious denial

733
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: of rights that slavery had to be specifically authorized by law,

734
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: and Parliament had never done so. When there were calls

735
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: for Parliament to pass enable legislation for black slavery, the

736
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: proposal was derided in a widely circulated joke which was

737
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 2: eventually published in the Virginia Gazette. If Negroes are to

738
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: be slaves on account of color, the next step will

739
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: be to enslave every Mulatto in the Kingdom, then all

740
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: the Portuguese, next to French, then the brown complexioned English,

741
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: and so on, until there'll be only one free man left,

742
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 2: which will be the man of palest complexion in the

743
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: free three kingdoms.

744
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 3: Just your your boiled chicken. That's all is left. The

745
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 3: boiled chickens gotta do right. This is absurd, Guys like

746
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 3: this just doesn't make sense.

747
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: It is interesting because this is before scientific racism is

748
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 2: starting to be a thing at this time, and it's

749
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: you don't get enough of like that. Of just like

750
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: some regular guys writing as a columnist in a newspaper

751
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: being like, you guys, see how ridiculous this is, right, Yeah,

752
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: Like just.

753
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 3: Like I can't tell her, like I don't know not

754
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: none about it. You book learning. I'm just saying, yeah, yeah.

755
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: How far are we taking this? Because it seems like

756
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 2: you can make a case for basically everybody essentially.

757
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

758
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: So, speaking of scientific racism, this is the heel turn

759
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: moment really for Jefferson because while he's writing notes on

760
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: the state of Virginia, which he does we'll talk about

761
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: in the next episode, he does include a plan to

762
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: end slavery in that, but he also starts his first

763
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: kind of dipping into like scientific racism, right, And this

764
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: is a big pivot from the all men are created

765
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: equal guy, right, and so that the hoops he has

766
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 2: to jump through to do this are worth laying out.

767
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: He starts by admitting that slavery is a horror, right,

768
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: but he cites is one of its evils, and you're

769
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 2: kind of you kind of take from this. He sees

770
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: this as the worst evil is what it does to

771
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: young white men, right, because it makes them lazy, right right?

772
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, not that it their conscience, no, no, not

773
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 3: that it distorts their understanding of morality. And how the earth. Yeah,

774
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: it makes them lazy.

775
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: It does a little bit. But he's because he does say, like,

776
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: the man must be a pro who can retain his

777
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 2: manners and morals undepraved by such circumstances. And he's talking

778
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 2: about like growing up with like a slave that's raised

779
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: next to you. That's like you're you know, raised to

780
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: be your servant, right, that that's going to like how

781
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: can you not have your morals work worked? But then

782
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: he does go right into like it makes white men

783
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: lazy and it forces them to be tyrants, right, they

784
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: have to be tyrants when they're raised this way. Yeah,

785
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 2: it's just this focus on what it does to white

786
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: people that's so like off putting.

787
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 3: Yes, Like it's kind of burying the lead here, buddy, Like, yeah, words,

788
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 3: that's what you john from this, Okay. Yeah.

789
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that this argument does put him

790
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: at odds with some pro slavery advocates of his day,

791
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: because there are people arguing in like newspapers and whatnot

792
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: at the day that like, part of why slavery has

793
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: to remain in the in the new country is that

794
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: working is too hard for white men. We can't do it.

795
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: We can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Win Sex cites a

796
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 2: series of letters to a Virginia paper during this period

797
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: in which one man argues, general utility is the basis

798
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: of all law and justice, and on this principle, the

799
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: right of slavery is founded. Well, it's really useful for me, right, Well,

800
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 2: how about people super convenient?

801
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 3: I hear everything you're saying, bro, I hear everything you're saying.

802
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 3: But like counterpoint is really it really it's really good

803
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: for me though.

804
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you tried to work eight hours? It's like,

805
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: really it sucks. Have you, man?

806
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: Have you actually tried to harvest? Come back? Oh? Like

807
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:34,959
Speaker 3: it really hard work.

808
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: It's hot doing things, man sucks. Yeah. There's another letter

809
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 2: that Winstt quotes. That's to a newspaper in Pennsylvania, where

810
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 2: a Southerner argues that abolitionious to a quote totally blind

811
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: to our ease and interest. The certain consequence would be

812
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 2: that we must work ourselves. Come on, yeah, man.

813
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, yo, that is that is my patron saying

814
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: Ricky Bobby when he was like when cale not ju

815
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 3: was like, how about how about how about I you

816
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 3: let me win? Sometimes he goes, Okay, yeah, I hear you.

817
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 3: But if if you win, then that means that I

818
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 3: don't win.

819
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: I gotta lose.

820
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like and you know, you know how I

821
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 3: roll in first and last, like I can't. But if

822
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 3: you're first and I'm not first, so we can't do that?

823
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: Is I like reading stuff like that just because it's like, okay,

824
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: so that is as like blatantly selfish and evil as

825
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: the reality was. Right, that's a guy. There's no dressing

826
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: that up. He's like, yeah, but i'd have to work

827
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: if we didn't have work.

828
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: Bro, Like, do you want to work? Like there? Yes,

829
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: It's like a point that's made often in both of

830
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: our shows is that history is history is us. These

831
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: are just regular. There's nothing uniquely evil or there's no

832
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: unique malady about. They are just there us we are,

833
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 3: Like that is the most regular, regular answer that yeah,

834
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: that anyone would give today to where you're like, well, well,

835
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: I don't want to pick the fruit, you know what

836
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 3: I mean? Well, like I don't know, you know what

837
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 3: I'm saying, Like I want to go to the store

838
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 3: and buy it, like you pick the fruit.

839
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 4: You know.

840
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: That's so that's such an awful thing. Like what they're

841
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: saying is so awful, and it's so much uglier than

842
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: than Jefferson's flowery pros. But they're also they're honest, and

843
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: he is full of shit, and this is really this

844
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: is the full of shit stuff that comes out because

845
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: since he's not going to make that well I don't

846
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: want to work, you know, argument, he's going to like

847
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 2: have to dress it up, and he has these it's

848
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: it's this notes on the state of Virginia is weird

849
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: because he has these moments of like where he'll land

850
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: kind of in between racism and some kind of actual wisdom.

851
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 2: Like he takes on the common argument by white people

852
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: that that black people, if they're freed, they're they're inclined

853
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: to criminal behavior, right, And he actually makes a good

854
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: argument here, which is like that disposition to theft with

855
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: which they have been branded must be ascribed to their

856
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: situation and not to any pravity of the moral sense.

857
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: The man in whose favor no laws of property exist

858
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: probably feels himself less bound to respect those made in

859
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: favor of others. Come old, Well, if the law says

860
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 2: your property, why are you going to give a shit

861
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: about the law?

862
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 3: Yes, like yeah, again, just this like dizzying, like yes, yes, right, yes,

863
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 3: you're right.

864
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Now this descends very quickly though, into what, again,

865
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: is kind of proto scientific racism. Jefferson doesn't. He does

866
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: argue that he believes He states his belief that black

867
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: people are inferior, but he also he hymns, He's like, well,

868
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: I'm a scientist, and right, we don't have conclusive data yet.

869
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 2: I'm just saying this might be what's happening, right, But

870
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: he does state his belief that black people and white

871
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 2: people are fundamentally different, with differences that are quote fixed

872
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: in nature. Now, what he actually means by this is

873
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: pretty shallow. His like, his his scientific justification is like,

874
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: well they look different, yeh, look at it, like yeah,

875
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: and he's like, white people have flowing hair and more

876
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: elegant symmetry of form. And then he gets into the

877
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 2: real racist shit where he's like, black people inherently prefer

878
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 2: to have sex with white people, and he makes a

879
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: comparison to how orangutans prefer to have sex with human beings,

880
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: which is not true about orangutans either. No, one very

881
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: racist in so many ways.

882
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you're yeah, you're beating the dog and you're

883
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: like he likes it. See you look the dog likes it.

884
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah it's bad. And that orangutan phrase is

885
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,479
Speaker 2: like the one you'll encounter most often when you read

886
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: the sections of Jefferson's racism, and it deserves to be read.

887
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 2: But in his book, win Seck brings up another point

888
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 2: about this passage that I had not considered. Jefferson probably

889
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: summoned up the fantastical image of an ape mating with

890
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: an African woman to deflect attention from the actual reality

891
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: of Virginia society, the pervasive rape of black women like

892
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: white men. Yes, and I hadn't thought about that, but.

893
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly what it is to be like. But

894
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 3: they like it, and I'm like, no, they don't. They

895
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 3: are property, yeah, like you like we like, which is obvious,

896
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: like like shit that none of us have to explain,

897
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: which is like they don't have agency. What are you

898
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 3: talking about? And and you are raping them and for

899
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: their own safety and the safety of their children. They

900
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: don't pretend like they like it. Yeah, you know, but

901
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 3: of course they don't like what the what are you

902
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 3: talking about? What are you talking about? Yeah?

903
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: I think one of the things I think about when

904
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: I read Jefferson's writing here, because he very much frames

905
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: this is I'm trying to look at this like a scientist, yeah,

906
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 2: trying to analyze these different relations between the raceists scientifically.

907
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: I think a little bit. You've heard that story about

908
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: that guy who studied like wolves and wrote this about

909
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: like alpha wolf behavior, and yeah, yeah, he gave us

910
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: this idea of the alpha male and then realizes later like, oh,

911
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: I was just looking at wolves in prison captivity, and

912
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: they act differently in prison than they do in the time.

913
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: They don't actually do this in the wild, right. He

914
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: is Jefferson is analyzing people that he owns and that

915
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 2: other people around him own and their behavior, and he's

916
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: he's attributing all of their behavior to like natural distinctions

917
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: and always ignoring like, well but they're enslaved well always,

918
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: not always, but.

919
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah factual And yeah, this is like this

920
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: is really this is the big heel turn moment.

921
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: This is when he commits. This is when it becomes

922
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: kind of impossible ideologically for him to ever wind up

923
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: on the side of abolition, right because he is fundamentally

924
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: defending slavery, and when he defends slavery, he does so

925
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: by being racist. Right. One of his complaints is that

926
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: people with black skin are better at hiding their emotions.

927
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 2: Now that's not true. But what's happening here is number one,

928
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: he doesn't pay attention to them, right, because he owns them, no,

929
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: you know, and so he doesn't understand them as much

930
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: as he understands white people. Right. And the other thing

931
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: is that, yeah, if you are enslaved, you probably get

932
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: good at hiding certain feelings because they're dangerous.

933
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, like the idea that which is completely normal

934
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: of yeah, self preservation and making decisions that are going

935
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 3: to uh yeah again, like because we are in fact

936
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 3: humans that are going to try our best to protect

937
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 3: our children. And if that means I got to do

938
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 3: a little shucking job to make sure that you feel placated,

939
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 3: is going to stop the overseer from coming over here?

940
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And yeah, it's one of those this kind

941
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: of belief again that he does not analyze in any way, right. Yeah,

942
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: it culminates in a very fortunate set of conclusions for him,

943
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: which is he decides, like, well, it just seems like

944
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: black people don't feel as much as white people, right.

945
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: We know they don't need as much sleep because we

946
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: don't let them sleep as often. We know they're less

947
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: sensitive to the heat and the cold. Yeah, you just

948
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: don't listen when they can complain they feel like they can.

949
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and especially with you saying well, like like them

950
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: saying well, we I mean you kidding me. We couldn't

951
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: handle this, like yeah, and they're handling it, so I

952
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: guess you know. Yeah, we wouldn't stand for this. We

953
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 3: would look, we would not stand for this. And apparently

954
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 3: they're standing for soeah.

955
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 2: So it must be cool. Yeah, he starts. He's one

956
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: of the first people to make the argument that they

957
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 2: don't feel pain in the same way, which exists, I

958
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: mean less consciously. But like that's still a problem in

959
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 2: medicine today. He writes. Their griefs are transient. In other words,

960
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: they feel sad when they lose family members, but not

961
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: for a long time. They forget things quickly. Right now.

962
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: He also he has to acknowledge equality in a few areas. Right,

963
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 2: he says that they have an equal equivalent memory to

964
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: white people. Right, because he he employes black laborers doing

965
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: complicated tasks. Right, he can't not see that, right, there

966
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: can't be any use as workers. Yeah, number one, Right, yeah, yeah,

967
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: but he also has to argue, but that means they

968
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: don't have any they don't they lack reason, and they

969
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: can't imagine things. They really can't want anything better. And

970
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: part of his argument for this is I've never met

971
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 2: a black person who could understand Euclid's writing. It's like,

972
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: do you let him read Euclid? But do you teach

973
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 2: him like math? You know, like have you tried?

974
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 3: Yeah about that?

975
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? How about that?

976
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 4: Is it?

977
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: And also like, is it are there little white people

978
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 2: who haven't heard about Euclid?

979
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 4: Right?

980
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: The most of the country that's not can't read and

981
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: that certainly doesn't know a fucket Euclid? Yeah?

982
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 3: Is it?

983
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: Maybe a matter of access to education? Maybe you understand

984
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: is valuable?

985
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 4: You know?

986
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god.

987
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

988
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: Anyway, Yeah, he's pretty bad. There is one moment here

989
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 2: where he's like, it's possible I'm wrong about this because

990
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 2: maybe enslaved people feel they have to lock up their

991
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 2: faculties and talents to endure. So he has the ability

992
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: to realize what's going on here. He even hints at it,

993
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: though he just can't accept it.

994
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: Those frustrating moments when you're just in somebody, when he

995
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 3: just peeks up and says, yeah, I mean I could

996
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 3: be tripping because I mean, clearly we're beating him to death,

997
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 3: and yeah, yeah.

998
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be wrong about this very obvious thing. Yeah.

999
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: So nevertheless, he concluded that these differences weren't the result

1000
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: of the fact that slavery gave few chances for creativity

1001
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: or intellectual achievement. He decides nature had produced the distinction,

1002
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 2: and he gives himself out again. He's like, that's just

1003
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: what I think. I you know, now, maybe there will

1004
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 2: be some more evidence later, but yeah, I consider that

1005
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: kind of like, I don't know, a little cowardly.

1006
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,439
Speaker 3: Actually, it's very cowardly because of like, yeah, it's the

1007
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 3: implications of the like freud of it all, like the

1008
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 3: subconscious continuingly to peek out, like you know you're wrong,

1009
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 3: Like you know you're wrong. You know what I'm saying

1010
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: somewhere in there, Like you know you wrong, but you

1011
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 3: also know you not trying to change your way of life,

1012
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 3: you know, And like you said, the fullest shitty like

1013
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 3: is on full display here.

1014
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: You know, you're you're too good a writer to not

1015
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: bring this up because you just inherently make good arguments.

1016
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: But like you have to clamp it down. You can

1017
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: almost feel him shoving that back down inside of himself

1018
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: in order to make this work. And we'll talk a

1019
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: lot more about this kind of and even a bit

1020
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 2: more about Notes on the State of Virginia. But at

1021
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: the end of this episode, let's just bring it to

1022
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 2: the end of the Revolutionary War, which the US wins

1023
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: at Yorktown while Jefferson is still scribbling away. In seventeen

1024
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: eighty three, a peace was negotiated and the US gained

1025
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: its independence. Notes on the State of Virginia was published

1026
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: in seventeen eighty five and then republished several times, and

1027
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: it formed a meaningful part of the backlash or counterswing

1028
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: to a wave of abolitionist sentiment that gripped the new

1029
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: country around the time of its independence. Right because of

1030
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 2: the declaration, there's actually starts to be this argument. There's

1031
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: even some will argue Virginia might have been on its

1032
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 2: way to abolishing slavery. Right weeks before Jefferson turned in

1033
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: his draft, a member of the Virginia State Legislature submitted

1034
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: a draft constitution that would have ended hereditary slavery in

1035
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 2: the state. It argued that men were born equally free

1036
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 2: and independent, and that no compact could deprive them of

1037
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: their rights. The legislature, though, added a line that men

1038
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: only gained these rights when they enter into a state

1039
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: of society, and slaves were defined as not part of society.

1040
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: Still that's pretty fucked up. Yeah, Like these people are

1041
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 2: literally what your entire society rests on.

1042
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 3: But damn yeah, it makes it that much more like

1043
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 3: human and like heinous to where it was like, bro,

1044
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 3: it was people right there. It was like right there,

1045
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 3: like y'all knew. It just was like, we'll cut that

1046
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: part out.

1047
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: Like yeah, and it's it's still this is not even

1048
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 2: probably a few years after the constitution, yeah, Virginia is

1049
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 2: changed or a few years after this happens, the constitution

1050
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 2: in Virginia is changed to include black people as citizens

1051
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 2: if they've been freed. Right, And if you were observing

1052
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: all of this, like these debates and these pushbacks and whatnot,

1053
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:50,919
Speaker 2: in trying to predict the future, you might have guessed

1054
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: in the mid seventeen eighties, well maybe Virginia is headed

1055
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: to abolition. Winsett kind of argues that it was, and

1056
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 2: that it's Jefferson who plays a major role in wrenching

1057
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: it away from that course quote. At this critical moment,

1058
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 2: Jefferson broke from the dominant progressive thinking of his time

1059
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: to construct an image of the black person as the other,

1060
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: a being with no place in American society. Putting a

1061
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: scholarly sheene on the rationalizations of slaveholders, Jefferson made himself

1062
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: the theorist and spokesperson for the reactionaries. Jefferson was not

1063
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 2: as torn as he has taken to be, writes the

1064
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 2: historian Michael Zuckerman. He was not as confined by his

1065
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 2: culture as his apologists have often claimed in regard to race,

1066
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 2: as in regard to so much else. He was a leader,

1067
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: and that's part two.

1068
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 3: I love that.

1069
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 4: Maybe leaders are a bad idea.

1070
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe leaders are a bad idea.

1071
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1072
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 2: Maybe race leaders are a bad idea.

1073
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: Yeah maybe. Yeah. May be like I'm smart, I read stuff. Yeah,

1074
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 3: it might be a little more to it, you know

1075
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 3: what I'm saying.

1076
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's such a little kind of a little shit.

1077
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 2: He's a bitch ass he's Yeah.

1078
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 3: I mean at the end of the day, at the

1079
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 3: end of the day.

1080
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the end of the.

1081
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 3: Day, at the end of the day, It's like I

1082
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 3: could cover it all you have like like flower it up, man,

1083
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 3: like twist your brain into a pretzel say that you

1084
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 3: like while I'm doing it. But I'm not like those dudes.

1085
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 3: And it's like, bro, like I mean, I like I

1086
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 3: think of so many modern things I think of, like

1087
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 3: this may feel very TMZ of it, but like I

1088
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 3: think of like P Diddy and his apology and was

1089
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 3: just like you know, I was it really in a

1090
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 3: dark place.

1091
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 4: Man.

1092
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 3: You know, I've gone to therapy, and bro, like, don't

1093
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 3: I won't hear about your therapy, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,

1094
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 3: And I'm like and the like, okay, like it, there

1095
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 3: was a lot of lightly dim places that you was

1096
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 3: in before you got to the dark one that we saw. Brother,

1097
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 3: like you don't you don't wake up and get to

1098
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 3: that homeboy you ever said what I'm saying, that's not

1099
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 3: that's not that's not a light switch, big dog like

1100
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 3: you was building this homie, you know, and then I

1101
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 3: think the like you know, like why like like it's

1102
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 3: like if I could if I could grab America by

1103
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 3: the cheek and be like the face cheeks okay and

1104
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 3: be like.

1105
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm glad you're clarified.

1106
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like why you ain't join the I

1107
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 3: C C. Big dog, Like why you don't want to?

1108
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: Why you want to say like, tell me, tell me

1109
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 3: why you don't want to call call this a genocide?

1110
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 3: Tell me why you don't want to tell me why

1111
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 3: you don't want to accuse anybody for crimes of crimes

1112
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 3: agains humanity?

1113
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: What's the same Why Jefferson does everything he does here

1114
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 2: is exactly well, because it would mean making your life

1115
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: a little less comfortable, yes, right, And it would mean

1116
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 2: sacrifices the things you value that.

1117
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 3: Maybe people will peak at you and be like exactly, so,

1118
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 3: like why why why won't America do this?

1119
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 4: Well?

1120
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 3: Because I don't want you all to look at our

1121
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 3: centuries of crimes of humanity? So I don't want to.

1122
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying that some acess to like

1123
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: we really use their airspace a lot, Like there's a

1124
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 2: number of things for the reasons why it comes down

1125
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 2: to yeah, yeah, like I don't want to. It'll be

1126
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 2: hard for me.

1127
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,919
Speaker 4: It comes down to your lyric prop. It comes down

1128
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 4: to I don't hate America just a man, she keeps

1129
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 4: her problem, she doesn't.

1130
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 2: And she don't just like dude, be who Jefferson is, like,

1131
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 2: he's he has to because he's this big I am

1132
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: the profit of freedom guy. Internationally, he has to write

1133
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: to these dudes in France, we're going to be the

1134
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 2: people a lot of the people who are involved in

1135
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 2: the French Revolution, and who are these like and and

1136
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: he has to explain how am I still the profit

1137
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 2: of freedom while owning people. That's the big part of

1138
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: what's happening here. And the answer is that, like, well,

1139
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: they're not really the same kind and there's a lot

1140
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 2: of problems, Like I agree slavery is bad, but we

1141
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 2: really have to look at this very carefully because of

1142
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: all of these biological differences, right, Which is all he's

1143
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: doing is he's scientificizing the ship that every slave owner

1144
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 2: would say, which is like, yeah, but I don't want

1145
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 2: to work it is he you know, yeah, he's a farmer,

1146
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: but he's not a farmer. Yeah, you know exactly, really.

1147
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 4: Every butt guy, he's the I don't hate women, but

1148
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 4: he's that guy.

1149
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it's kind of like but look, look, look, look,

1150
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 3: if you let me finish, if you let me finish, yeah,

1151
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 3: I would tell you. It's like all right, bros.

1152
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 4: He's every guy I don't want to talk to a

1153
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 4: bar right, Yeah, like yeah, yeah, those are the guys

1154
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,280
Speaker 4: you have to like they got all these big words,

1155
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 4: but you just it's almost like, you know, like a

1156
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 4: toddler out of control, Like I have to you have

1157
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 4: to just keep them in focus and be like, hey man,

1158
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 4: here's here's the cornerstone question.

1159
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 3: How can you be the profit of freedom while keeping

1160
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 3: someone enslaved? Yeah, like no, no, no, no, that's all we

1161
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 3: talk about. That's like you can give me aught. How

1162
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 3: are you the profit of freedom? Yeah, exactly.

1163
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: And he's gonna have to We're gonna talk about his

1164
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: time in France because he's the basically the ambassador. Yeah,

1165
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: that's the whole time there is. He's like having that

1166
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: argument with me. Yeah yeah, we'll get to that. But

1167
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: first prop what's your pluggables? Where are they?

1168
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 3: Oof?

1169
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 2: When are they?

1170
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:49,959
Speaker 4: Man?

1171
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 3: When are they they are whenever you want?

1172
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 4: On?

1173
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 3: Do you believe the Internet's dead?

1174
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 2: I think large chunks of it are, right, Like you know,

1175
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: that's that's kind of something like a third of old

1176
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: Wikipedia links or whatnot or dead, Like, yeah, it turns

1177
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: out it's not a very good place to store things.

1178
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 3: No, But on this, you know, on the on whatever's

1179
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 3: left of the internet. You can go to prop hip

1180
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 3: hop dot com. Uh, and that'll get get you to

1181
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 3: all the other places the politics will prop man, you

1182
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 3: know where. I feel like this has been probably one

1183
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 3: of my best seasons, if I do say so myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1184
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 3: we kind of kind of hit a stride.

1185
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: He's coming to dude, super good things.

1186
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 3: Come in hit a stride. Man. I'm really excited about this.

1187
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, the politics prop with the cool Zone crew,

1188
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 3: you know, yep.

1189
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1190
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 4: And for us at cool Zone Media and all the things,

1191
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 4: and for you Robert anything.

1192
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 2: No, no, nothing like that Poland diaper bank. Behind the

1193
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 2: Bastards go fundme. We're doing a go fundme diapers for

1194
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 2: people who can't afford them. Always a good thing, always

1195
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: a good things. Good to help people have diapers who

1196
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: can't afford.

1197
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 4: To buy them otherwise Bye bye.

1198
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1199
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1200
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1201
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.