1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,840
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Trust Me is brought to you by

2
00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,360
Speaker 1: the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Suspect Vanished in the Snow.

3
00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,320
Speaker 1: Download the Amazon Music app today.

4
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:09,959
Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a

5
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:11,800
Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.

6
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

7
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:15,840
Speaker 1: that you'd like to share.

8
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,120
Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

9
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,480
Speaker 2: four seven eight six trust.

10
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,440
Speaker 1: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

11
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 2: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

12
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 2: dot com.

13
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 1: Trust Me, trust Me.

14
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

15
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,160
Speaker 4: I've never lived.

16
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: To you, I never If you think that one person

17
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 1: has all the answers, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the

18
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 1: podcast about Col's extreme belief and manipulation from two Benjamins

19
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,000
Speaker 1: who've actually experienced it. I'm lowl Blanc and I'm making

20
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and we're Benjamins. You guys, Because it's our one

21
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:55,560
Speaker 1: hundredth episode.

22
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 4: I cannot believe this, you guys.

23
00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 1: How did we do it?

24
00:00:58,840 --> 00:00:59,279
Speaker 4: I don't know.

25
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,200
Speaker 1: I don't remember. When we first started, we were like,

26
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,640
Speaker 1: how are we going to find enough guests.

27
00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,679
Speaker 4: Ex fort to fill five episodes?

28
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:06,000
Speaker 5: Yeah?

29
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,399
Speaker 4: Like, are there five people we could talk to one.

30
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,760
Speaker 1: Hundred, but there are so many more. I mean, I

31
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,560
Speaker 1: feel like we've uncovered all of this not uncovered.

32
00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 4: I feel like we hacked the cave.

33
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,760
Speaker 1: You've discovered there are so many more groups than we

34
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 1: ever could have imagined, hardly scratched the surface, and there

35
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,039
Speaker 1: are so many facets of extreme belief to explore. Still,

36
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,440
Speaker 1: there's so much I want to get into with y'all,

37
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,119
Speaker 1: but for now, let's go for some highlights. Yeah, reveal

38
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 1: if anyone hasn't listened to every single episode of the show,

39
00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 1: and if you have, holy shit, thank you. But I'm

40
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,640
Speaker 1: assuming most people have not, So we're going to go

41
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,399
Speaker 1: over just some like one on one cold stuff, some

42
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 1: of our favorite stories, favorite moments that kind of exemplify

43
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 1: the cult experience and the cult recovery experience. So let's

44
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: begin at the beginning with the ultimate, the cult expert

45
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 1: himself and friend of the show. Dare I say, Steve

46
00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 1: hasn't who's gonna tell us about what cults are. Steve

47
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,000
Speaker 1: was in the Moonies himself, so he knows all of

48
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,680
Speaker 1: this stuff from firsthand experience, but he's also written multiple

49
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,120
Speaker 1: books about cults, including Combating Cult Mind Control, which is

50
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,880
Speaker 1: kind of a seminole book on undo influence and high

51
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 1: control groups and all that stuff. So let's hear from

52
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 1: Steep tell us what defines a cult. This is something

53
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 1: people ask me all the time, and I have a

54
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 1: general idea of it, but I want to hear from

55
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 1: the expert himself.

56
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 5: So there are lots of different people with lots of

57
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 5: different ways of explaining it, and I'll tell you my

58
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 5: way of explaining it. But first I'll say there are

59
00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,840
Speaker 5: theological definitions, but that's not what I use at all.

60
00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:50,640
Speaker 5: I use psychology, good social psychology, and the baseline model

61
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,120
Speaker 5: is Chinese communist brainwashing. So I have this influence continuum.

62
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,080
Speaker 5: Imagine an arrow going in two directions. One direction is

63
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 5: ethical influence and one is unethical influence. So I say,

64
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,080
Speaker 5: there's a lot of influence everywhere. We're constantly being influenced

65
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 5: by each other, et cetera, by the media, by families,

66
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,360
Speaker 5: but there's a real distinction of ethical influence. You have

67
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 5: informed consent, you know what you're getting into. You're free

68
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,720
Speaker 5: to leave, you can read whatever you want to read,

69
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 5: you can talk to whoever you want to talk to.

70
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 5: It's love based, it's conscience based. That's create, you know,

71
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 5: respecting your creativity and your free will. So you can

72
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 5: be in a cult of like loving a particular band

73
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 5: or sports team or whatever and be like really fanatically

74
00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 5: into it, but there's like no penalty if you leave it, right,

75
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 5: you don't feel guilty if you, you know, if you

76
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,600
Speaker 5: miss a game because you're sick or you want to

77
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,240
Speaker 5: be at your kids soccer game or something like that.

78
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 5: But what the bulk of my work and how I

79
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,160
Speaker 5: nik a living is helping people who've been victimized by

80
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:09,560
Speaker 5: unethical influence. So there's lying by withholding vital information, distorting information,

81
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 5: or outright lying to you, fear information control, and that's

82
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,800
Speaker 5: where we get into my byte model.

83
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:17,720
Speaker 3: Right.

84
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 5: B stands for behavior control, I stands for information control,

85
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,479
Speaker 5: T stands for thought control, and E stands for emotional control. So,

86
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,640
Speaker 5: for example, under emotional control, they make you feel special

87
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 5: on the one hand, like you're chosen, but mostly it's

88
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 5: about guilt and fear. And the universal is what I

89
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,360
Speaker 5: call phobia indoctrination, which is the implantation of irrational fears

90
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,279
Speaker 5: that if you ever leave the group or even question

91
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 5: the leader, terrible things are going to happen to you.

92
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,320
Speaker 5: You're gonna go insane, you're gonna be possessed by demons,

93
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,320
Speaker 5: you're gonna be hit by a car. I have in

94
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 5: my book Freedom of Mind in chapter ten, and I

95
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 5: have four pages, single space of the most common phobias

96
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,400
Speaker 5: that I've worked with, oh wow, forty years. But if

97
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,719
Speaker 5: you look at them, you know, for ex members, it's

98
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,480
Speaker 5: like a revelation, Oh my god, we did this one,

99
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 5: we did this one, we did this one, we did

100
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:21,800
Speaker 5: this one. But you know, because it's psychological slavery is

101
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,960
Speaker 5: what authoritarian cult mind control does. You don't have physical

102
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 5: bars in many cases, just psychological and emotional bars. So

103
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,839
Speaker 5: you can leave the cult anytime you want, right the

104
00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,599
Speaker 5: doors there. But the minute you get up and you

105
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 5: start walking, then you get surrounded by members and they

106
00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,920
Speaker 5: start to doing. But Satin is coming or whatever that

107
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,799
Speaker 5: it is your own thoughts, like, right.

108
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 1: Wow, I have not listened to this in so long,

109
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 1: And that is such an interesting thing to hear again.

110
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,599
Speaker 1: Phobia indoctrination is such a big component.

111
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,120
Speaker 2: Correct or a big one in mine, which one car

112
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 2: rex really Oh yeah, I was always these people. This

113
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,720
Speaker 2: person they left the way and a horrible car accident

114
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,920
Speaker 2: and they are very dead in and hou mmmmm.

115
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean in like Mormon offshoot religions, it's

116
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,680
Speaker 1: often well, if you leave, you won't get to be

117
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,720
Speaker 1: with your family in eternity. You will be separated from

118
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 1: your loved ones for the rest of time. Like you're

119
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 1: free to go if you want to be alone forever

120
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,000
Speaker 1: and not get to go to the top tier of

121
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 1: heaven and not be with anyone you love and just

122
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:35,720
Speaker 1: be sad and lonely.

123
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 4: For your choice.

124
00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love Steve's bite model. I mean, like

125
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 1: you said, there are lots of different frameworks for thinking

126
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,480
Speaker 1: about cults, and my mom and I are actually working

127
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,480
Speaker 1: on something along those lines ourselves. But all of these

128
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 1: different methods of control are what distinguished like a religion

129
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,039
Speaker 1: that can be like a little, a little much sometimes

130
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 1: from like an actual cult. And I liked his point

131
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,919
Speaker 1: about fandom as well, because like, of course, you can

132
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 1: be a fan of a band and there be no

133
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,279
Speaker 1: consequences if you like, don't go and bully the person

134
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,600
Speaker 1: online who said the thing you didn't like, right, But

135
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,960
Speaker 1: if you're a member of a fandom, and you will

136
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: face social consequences if you don't do what they expect

137
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: you to do. That's when it gets called.

138
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 2: A very big warning sign for me is groups that

139
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 2: talk more about how bad it is to not be

140
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,000
Speaker 2: a part of them than the good parts of being

141
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 2: a part of that.

142
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 1: Totally, I have the like craziest.

143
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 4: Ear for that.

144
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: So just a little note there, yeah, and anything that's

145
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: a really good point. I feel like when fear is

146
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 1: the primary driving force that's keeping you apart of something,

147
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,760
Speaker 1: that's probably not a healthy sign, right, whether it's fear

148
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 1: of leaving or just fear of everyone on the outside,

149
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,520
Speaker 1: fear of these mysterious forces. And I think that's you know,

150
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 1: the political sphere that can definitely be one of the

151
00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 1: big red flags is like, are you just constantly in fear?

152
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 1: Maybe this isn't the right space for.

153
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 4: You, right the world is pretty terrifying right now.

154
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 1: True, But if the people, but if it's not solutions,

155
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,040
Speaker 1: like concrete solutions being offered to you, and it's just

156
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,920
Speaker 1: like they'll rule everything, it's like, yeah, all right, guys,

157
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 1: but what are we gonna do about it?

158
00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 3: You know?

159
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,040
Speaker 1: And ideally that does not include breaking into anyone's home

160
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: or killing anyone or taking over the you know whatever.

161
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: Y'all know what I mean.

162
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 4: For sure.

163
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,600
Speaker 1: So continuing on with people who have expertise on colts

164
00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,439
Speaker 1: and get more of a broad picture of colts, We're

165
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,200
Speaker 1: gonna listen to a clip from Rachel Bernstein. She is

166
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,959
Speaker 1: a licensed therapist who specializes in recovery from colts and

167
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 1: extreme belief in such and she also hosts another cult

168
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 1: podcast called indoctor Nations. So let's hear from Rachel Bernstein.

169
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 1: I often give the example of Jim Jones, you know,

170
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,560
Speaker 1: having a person basically be in a wheelchair and then

171
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 1: act as though they were here and suddenly start walking again.

172
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 1: These sort of like feigned miracles or like generated spiritual experiences.

173
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,680
Speaker 1: Does that fall under that category as well. I'm really

174
00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 1: interested in this thing that happens where we're like, no,

175
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,880
Speaker 1: I truly had a spiritual experience. I witnessed the miracle,

176
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, but it's kind of all just forgery.

177
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 6: Right, So it's both and kind of situation. So yes,

178
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 6: there are people who will say I really did have

179
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,560
Speaker 6: a mystical experience. I mean, there are some groups, even

180
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 6: one on one kind of cults, but it happens more

181
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,560
Speaker 6: often in larger groups where there's the kind of social

182
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 6: contagion that happens around you. So you notice other people

183
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 6: speaking in tongues, so you start speaking in tongues because

184
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 6: you think that's what you're supposed.

185
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,680
Speaker 1: To be doing. But you're kind of making it up

186
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:55,520
Speaker 1: as you go along.

187
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,960
Speaker 6: But you're afraid how people are going to see you

188
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,719
Speaker 6: or they're going to call you if you're not doing

189
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 6: it too. But groups are very good at creating fervor,

190
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 6: at creating an intensity, and so people will abandon a

191
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,920
Speaker 6: lot of critical thinking if they are connected to that

192
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,679
Speaker 6: fervor because it's like a drug and they love that,

193
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 6: and a lot of people will do things that might

194
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 6: feel superhuman during that time. I mean, I think about

195
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 6: as a total aside. It was when I was young.

196
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,679
Speaker 6: I remember we had beloved dog who ended up being fine,

197
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 6: this has a happy ending, but there was a person

198
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 6: who backed up and had his tire on his car

199
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 6: over my dog, bike on his body, and my dad.

200
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,680
Speaker 6: I remember my dad went over and looked at the

201
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 6: back of the car.

202
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 4: Wow.

203
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,920
Speaker 6: I thought, okay, so I'm sure that if he just

204
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,080
Speaker 6: if someone said can you lift that car? No, But

205
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 6: because there was this moment of panic of I have

206
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,960
Speaker 6: to do something, you can develop sort of parts of

207
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,880
Speaker 6: you that feel superhuman, and a lot of people will

208
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 6: say I had this transcendent moment or I saw things,

209
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 6: or I was able to do things that I couldn't

210
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 6: do before, and that feeling can be cultivated through that adrenaline.

211
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,440
Speaker 6: And so that adrenaline certainly is kicked up a notch,

212
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 6: a lot of notches. But yes, there are also people

213
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 6: who are faking it, who are not in a wheelchair,

214
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 6: but will enter the room in a wheelchair. There are

215
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 6: people also who there was it was very interesting. It

216
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,080
Speaker 6: was like a sting operation for a televangelist years ago.

217
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:41,720
Speaker 4: What where fun?

218
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know, it was very interesting where he did

219
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,840
Speaker 6: all these healings so people were suddenly able to walk again.

220
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,320
Speaker 6: It was like lords, you know, like holy water. And

221
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 6: the reason there was a sting operation was for good

222
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,960
Speaker 6: reason because he was encouraging people to go off their

223
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 6: medication oh no, which was horrible. And then, as it

224
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 6: is in cults, if you don't get cured, that's on you.

225
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 6: M praying hard enough or feeling it in your bones

226
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:08,720
Speaker 6: or whatever.

227
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 4: So it's always on you.

228
00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 6: But he had all these people posted in different parts

229
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 6: of the stadium where he had these services, and he

230
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 6: was talking to them, and he had people planted in

231
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,840
Speaker 6: the audience to not be standing up because they said

232
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,439
Speaker 6: they were not able to stand and be there on crutches,

233
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 6: and suddenly they were able to stand. And so the

234
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,160
Speaker 6: sting operation was that they had a listening device where

235
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,320
Speaker 6: they could actually hear him then speaking to the different

236
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 6: people in the crowd saying you're you're up, or you're on,

237
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,240
Speaker 6: and the camera would go right to them. So this

238
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 6: was to cultivate that magical, that mystical manipulation, and it

239
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 6: was totally cults.

240
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 4: All right, get it.

241
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm still laughing at your jog so stupid. I love

242
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 1: this clip. One of the things I find the absolute

243
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 1: most interesting about cults is the mystical manipulation. Is this

244
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,080
Speaker 1: creating of an intense emotional experience, of a peak experience

245
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,720
Speaker 1: or whatever, and how you do that as a cult

246
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,800
Speaker 1: leader and how real it feels as someone who's a member.

247
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,959
Speaker 1: And it makes me think of this TikTok that someone

248
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,679
Speaker 1: sent me on Twitter. And here's what it says, I

249
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 1: believe I sent it to you, Megan, and I think

250
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,439
Speaker 1: it's very funny. It perfectly captures this sort of thing.

251
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,640
Speaker 1: It says I believed in God as a kid because

252
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 1: I always felt so moved during worship songs at my megachurch.

253
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,280
Speaker 1: And then I went to a One Direction concert and

254
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 1: felt the same thing and realized I just like live music.

255
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 4: Yep.

256
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,360
Speaker 1: It's so good to me because it is like there

257
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 1: are so many parts of life in which we can

258
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,120
Speaker 1: feel these like heightened emotions that are legitimate and real

259
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,440
Speaker 1: and feel like something really special and magical and spiritual

260
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 1: is happening. But it's not because the person in the

261
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 1: pulpit is magical, right, It's because we are a part

262
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 1: of something, or we are all meditating together, or we're

263
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 1: all sleep deprived together so we're loocinated, or like we're

264
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,719
Speaker 1: all participating in a really connected group environment and that

265
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,679
Speaker 1: can make us feel very spiritual. We're all taking shrooms,

266
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:09,079
Speaker 1: you know.

267
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,559
Speaker 4: And singing together.

268
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,600
Speaker 1: Singing together, dude. Some of my favorite memories in my

269
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,079
Speaker 1: entire life are just my friends and I breaking out

270
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 1: into song together.

271
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful thing, and church knows that, and it

272
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:22,880
Speaker 2: brings people together singing.

273
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 4: It's a very moving experience. Even as a child, when.

274
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 2: I'd sing in like Acquire at school, I would just

275
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,440
Speaker 2: cry the whole time because it's so beautiful.

276
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, people singing together. And it also makes me think

277
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 4: of that guy we.

278
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 2: Interviewed well who talks about how his profit would shine

279
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 2: lights in people's eyes when their eyes were closed to

280
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 2: make them believe they were singing the light, but then

281
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 2: also manipulating the people who saw him do it by

282
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 2: being like, I need them to believe so that they

283
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 2: actually see the light.

284
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 4: You know what, It just never ends and yeah.

285
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think we should always go

286
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 1: toward those heightened experiences and that is what life is about.

287
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 1: But we should not trust when a group or a

288
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,720
Speaker 1: person is telling us that we can only get them

289
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 1: from them, right you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is

290
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,880
Speaker 1: very common for people to genuinely like see a light

291
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: around the person or like here, you know, like that

292
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 1: does happen, and it still doesn't mean it's magic.

293
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 4: Well, also, who was.

294
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,400
Speaker 2: The man that we interviewed who pretended he was a

295
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 2: prophet and did that documentary where he told.

296
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,160
Speaker 1: People from Gandhi.

297
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was like I'm a.

298
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 2: Prophet and then he had a big following, and then

299
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,880
Speaker 2: when he told them I'm not actually a prophet, they

300
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 2: were like, you just don't know you're a prophet because

301
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 2: well they.

302
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 1: Were like, this is the greatest lesson of all. Yeah.

303
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 2: But like just telling your mind in a kind of

304
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 2: narrative therapy way this is a.

305
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 4: Prophet makes that person a prophet.

306
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's confirmation bias exactly once. Which comes

307
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: back to the language thing too. I mean everything is

308
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: about priming and the lens through which we are viewing

309
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: the experiences that we're having. We've been told by twenty

310
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: five people before we finally meet the Leader that he's

311
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 1: the most amazing person and he's given them all enlightenment

312
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: and you can see him glowing, like we are primed

313
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 1: to look for those things.

314
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 5: Right.

315
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 2: If the sun is hitting you in a pretty way,

316
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 2: I just think the sun is hitting you. But if

317
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 2: you're a prophet, I'm thinking, oh my God, God is

318
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,080
Speaker 2: shining on you totally you know, yeah interesting, yeah, yeah,

319
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 2: I mean there are so many examples of it, even

320
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 2: even with my mom and I, you know, dreams where

321
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 2: the things that I now now I interpret dreams is like, oh,

322
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 2: that's funny.

323
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 1: I was thinking about X, Y and Z, so I

324
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: guess I had a random, randomized processing of those things.

325
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: But when I was a kid or like within the religion,

326
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 1: that we were in hormonism. We would have those dreams

327
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 1: and be like, it's a sign.

328
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, it must.

329
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: Mean this, and we'd be ascribing all this meaning to it.

330
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 1: And that is a very classic cult tactic. That's not

331
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 1: manipulating that you.

332
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,920
Speaker 2: Think that dreams can bring messages like from your psyche,

333
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 2: not signs, just a mess it.

334
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 1: I think if you are very anxious and you have

335
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 1: a very stressful dream, right, that can be like an

336
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: indicator that you are anxious. Yeah, you know, but I

337
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,320
Speaker 1: also like, I've had dreams that I'm cheating on my partner.

338
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,920
Speaker 1: I literally could want nothing less than that, you know,

339
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,600
Speaker 1: Like I've had dreams that my best friend betrayed me,

340
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I don't I like my best friend.

341
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 4: Good, I'm glad you like her, and so.

342
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: Much of it if I like, actually go back and

343
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that element was probably from that movie,

344
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,399
Speaker 1: because that's similar to that thing I watched the other night. Like,

345
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,920
Speaker 1: but then again, you know, maybe I just have a

346
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,640
Speaker 1: really uncreative dream brain.

347
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,119
Speaker 2: I've just worked with psychologists before who have looked at

348
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:35,679
Speaker 2: a dream and been like, oh, I think that this

349
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,160
Speaker 2: might be happening, And it's very abstract it's not something

350
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 2: I would come to on my own. Yeah, it's not

351
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 2: like as simple as like, oh, your best friend's a

352
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,920
Speaker 2: bad person, you know, and I've gotten meaning from them before.

353
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 2: But as far as saying a sign is coming. I

354
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,960
Speaker 2: remember your mother dreamed of the prophet before she met

355
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 2: him because she actually saw him before, and so that

356
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,160
Speaker 2: that's when I get sick. Yeah.

357
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,439
Speaker 1: Well, to me, dream interpretation is similar to tarot cards,

358
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, me as a skeptic in that, like whatever

359
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 1: you already kind of know deep down, it's going to

360
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: be a lens to help you sort of sort that

361
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 1: out and organize it in your head.

362
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,159
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, but totally.

363
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that it's magical. Right on a winter

364
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,720
Speaker 1: night in a small community near Denver, Colorado, Jim Matthews

365
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,439
Speaker 1: arrived home late. He expected to find his twelve year

366
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,840
Speaker 1: old daughter, who had been dropped off after a Christmas concert,

367
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 1: but when he called out, hi, Janelle, the house was

368
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,160
Speaker 1: eerily quiet. His daughter's shoes were on the floor, which

369
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 1: she was gone, and it would be thirty five years

370
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 1: before she would be found dead. After the discovery of

371
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 1: Janelle Matthew's body in twenty nineteen, the police turned their

372
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 1: attention to a man who told law enforcement years ago

373
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 1: that he knew something, but they dismissed him. The man

374
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,840
Speaker 1: did seem obsessed with the case, but is that all

375
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:57,320
Speaker 1: he was a true crime fanatic or a killer. Now

376
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 1: a jury will decide if Janelle's murderer was hiding in

377
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 1: place insight the entire time wondering in Campside Media's podcast,

378
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 1: Suspect is back for a second season with a story

379
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 1: that attempts to separate one man's true crime obsession from

380
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: a motive for murder. Hey Prime members, listen to the

381
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 1: Amazon Music exclusive podcast Suspect Vanished in the Snow in

382
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 1: the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. All right,

383
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 1: so now we've been talking about manipulation, so let's talk

384
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 1: about the ultimate manipulator. Let's get into what a charismatic

385
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 1: leader can look like a classic component of a cult,

386
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 1: and we're going to do that with the ultimate cult leader,

387
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 1: Charles Manson. So let's talk to Diane Lake, who wrote

388
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 1: a book about her experiences as one of the Manson girls.

389
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 7: So I went with this other couple, but I didn't

390
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 7: enjoy being with them. They shot speed and I wasn't

391
00:19:54,840 --> 00:20:00,239
Speaker 7: interested in doing anything besides smoking some marijuana and taking mellosty, right,

392
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 7: And so they invited me to come along with them

393
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 7: to this to hey, meet this scroovy guy and his girls.

394
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,360
Speaker 7: Is basically was the invitation. And so I went with them,

395
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,439
Speaker 7: and I walked in and it was this house that

396
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 7: I'd already lived in with other people, so I knew

397
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,679
Speaker 7: the house that I'd never heard of Charlie and the

398
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,719
Speaker 7: girls right, yeah, at the base of the canyon, just

399
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,360
Speaker 7: in this little in it's now like a park, it's

400
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,239
Speaker 7: like a preserve or a reserve type part. Anyway, I

401
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 7: walked in and I think it was Lynnette that came

402
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 7: up and went, Diane, you know, Charlie, Diane's here.

403
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: It's like what you're like?

404
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 4: Who are you right?

405
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:48,679
Speaker 8: How do you know me?

406
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 7: It was magical and flabbergasting all at the same time.

407
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 7: And Charlie got up from the circle and came and

408
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 7: offered me a drink of his root beer and embraced me,

409
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 7: and you know, well, hey, come and join us in

410
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 7: the circle, which was, you know what we did most

411
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 7: of the time, especially in the evening. We'd gather in

412
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 7: a circle and Charlie would plays guitar and play sing

413
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 7: his songs and we would sing along.

414
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 1: Wow. So and Lynette is squeaky correct, yeah, yeah, Okay,

415
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: this redhead girl comes up and is like so excited

416
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 1: to meet you, and you don't know who she is,

417
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 1: but you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers.

418
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: What was your first impression of Charlie, Like, what did

419
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: he seem like? What was the vibe?

420
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 7: Fun? Totally, you know, playful. He wasn't an imposing figure

421
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 7: at all. He's a short little guy, you know, or

422
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 7: was a short little man, and you know, with curly hair.

423
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 7: And really, I think I think we've analyze this. I

424
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 7: think he was like thirty three. Well, my youngest son

425
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 7: is thirty one, and I certainly don't think of him

426
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 7: as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest

427
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 7: son is thirty seven. But even when he was three,

428
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 7: I mean it was like, oh, you know, handsome.

429
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 1: I love this episode so much. Diane Lake is amazing,

430
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 1: as was her co guest Debbie Herman, who is her

431
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: publisher of her book. To me, this just speaks to

432
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 1: the sort of classic element of cults, although not every

433
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: single cult, but almost every cult, which is the charismatic leader,

434
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: which is the person who makes you feel so special

435
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: and so loved and so important and like they've been

436
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: waiting for you, you know, and they have this like

437
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: thing about them that just like makes you want to

438
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: listen to them. I always wish I had a way

439
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 1: of sort of quantifying or like organizing exactly what that is,

440
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: because you just hear like, oh, they're charismatic. Like I'm like,

441
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: what does that mean? What does that mean? How do

442
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: you know? How do we define? Like how do we

443
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: know when someone is charismatic and it's bad?

444
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, I think if somebody is trying to

445
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: dry you into a cause and they also seem very

446
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: personally obsessed with you way too quickly, maybe a little

447
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: bit of a warning sign, even though it is an

448
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 2: ego boost. But we just did an episode with Camila

449
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 2: and Chilium and they were talking about how when Kathy

450
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 2: met one of them, she was like, Oh, you're the

451
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: a Scorpio or Pisces person that we've been waiting for

452
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 2: to fulfill the prophecy of whatever whatever.

453
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 4: And it's just like, Oh, that's.

454
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: Tempting, because who doesn't want to be that when you're

455
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 2: a freshman in college.

456
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like you're freaking Harry Potter, Yeah yeah, Luke Skywalker,

457
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, the chosen one. They've been waiting for me.

458
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 9: Yeah.

459
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very classic thing to do, to

460
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: like sort of retroactively make up a prophecy and say that,

461
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: ah yaha, it has been fulfilled.

462
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 2: You are the ones, probably not right, And sometimes it's

463
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 2: more vague than that, you know, just like wow, you're

464
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: so interesting or so yeah whatever. But is there some

465
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: sort of cause that they would like you to join?

466
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: And as there's some sort of immediate bond that seems

467
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: too quick, too fast.

468
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 4: Too good to be true.

469
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: I mean it's love bombing. I mean it is. It

470
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: is love bombing.

471
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

472
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: That is to me a red flag if somebody meets

473
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 1: me and they immediately like want to be with me

474
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: or want to be my best friend or like just

475
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: ur I'm like, you don't.

476
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 4: Know me, right, because if you did, you would not

477
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 4: want you.

478
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: Would not like me, you'd be like fuck this girl.

479
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah totally.

480
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: No, but I mean yeah, I think so so right.

481
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: So there's the like charisma, like where they seem like

482
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: they're just magnetic, and then there is also this like

483
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: and part of that is this love bombing, like making

484
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: you feel really special. I think the charisma. Also, there's

485
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: just like a confidence to speak in front of a

486
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: lot of people and to have opinions that sound really

487
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: wise and interesting.

488
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 4: Just to believe that they have the answers.

489
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: To believe exactly. It is alluring when someone sounds like

490
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: they know what they're talking about one of the things

491
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: I've taken. Don't you guys feel lured by me right

492
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: now because it sounds like I know what I've done.

493
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 2: But I mean one of the things I've taken away

494
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: from us the most is like nobody really knows more

495
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: than anyone else. So come to your own answers authentically,

496
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: and you don't have to like make anyone else believe them.

497
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: But don't believe that somebody else's answer is magical.

498
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I feel like.

499
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 2: Especially women, that's how we lose a lot of our

500
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: power by being like, oh, thank god, an answer true.

501
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: Although I would like to add that the scientific method

502
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: always helpful. It's a very useful method. So if there's

503
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: been repeated science on something, then maybe you could trust

504
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: the people who did the repeated you know, peer reviewed studies.

505
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, yeah.

506
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: Those people usually aren't trying to be you know, usually yeah,

507
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there were people who even after

508
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: he murdered all of these people still were like yeah, go.

509
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: You well yes. But so the context that we kind

510
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: of talk about in the episode, and y'all can go

511
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: back and listen to it if you're interested, is that

512
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: there were lots of sort of revolutionary groups and counter

513
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: revolutionary groups that were going on in like late sixties,

514
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: early seventies. So there was a lot of domestic terrorism,

515
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: bombings whatever, people trying to sort of stick it to

516
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: the man and tell the establishment to fuck off. Basically

517
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: a lot of protesting anyway. So for particular groups who

518
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: were engaging in that kind of rhetoric, violence, rhetoric whatever,

519
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: initially they what they talked about in the episode is

520
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: that initially some of those groups saw the Manson murders,

521
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: which I should say he didn't himself murdered that course,

522
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: like had them done, saw them as like a you know,

523
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: like a revolutionary sort of thing to do because it

524
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: was rich people and it was the establishment and whatever,

525
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: and he was trying to get the fucking race war started.

526
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: But to me, that speaks to the culture at the

527
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: time more so than because people who didn't know him

528
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: probably I think mostly were just afraid that someone was

529
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: going to come kill them.

530
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

531
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: I think people he didn't get the one on one

532
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: time with him very swayed because he seemed pretty crazy.

533
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

534
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: My understanding is that there was like sort of a

535
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: nationwide panic after the Manson murders, and for the most part,

536
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: people weren't like this guy's cool.

537
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 4: Right, but some people were. And that speaks to cults,

538
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 4: It's true.

539
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: Speaking of so yeah, so speaking of cultural moments, cultural

540
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: culty moments, y'all, we're going to talk about QAnon. Whoop woop,

541
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: jatar Jadeja. He was our guest who was a former

542
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: que On believer and kind of snapped out of it.

543
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: He's so fucking funny and smart and I'm so glad

544
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: he graced us with presence. Jitarth. It's going to tell

545
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: us a little story here about the experience of being

546
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: in Qnon and this like very tumultuous cultural moment and

547
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: what that belief system was like for him. I'm curious

548
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: about as far as the like whole demon sort of

549
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: superstitious side of that all. Did you subscribe to that part?

550
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: Because from my understanding of QAnon. There are a lot

551
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: of sort of disparate connected beliefs and not everyone has

552
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: the same like sort of set of.

553
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 3: Beliefs, so mine was even crazier.

554
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 8: All right, there is no like Bible of q and

555
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 8: on right, there's no like a canon of Quanon. Everything

556
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 8: in QAnon is just canon because every conspiracy you've ever

557
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 8: heard and like I said, something you haven't can be

558
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 8: projected onto Qudon because q doesn't post like specific things

559
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 8: or even't used to. Right now, he's very specific. Democrats

560
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 8: are evil, blah blah blah. Right before it was a

561
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 8: little bit more vague and open ended.

562
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 10: Right, so there is a definite religious aspect to it.

563
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 10: It used to be a little bit more like secular

564
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 10: and apolitical like he did. He was like Republicans and Democrats,

565
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 10: and he didn't really use a religious and spiritual jargon.

566
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 10: But now he's like he started quoting the Bible mentions

567
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 10: God a lot. So there's definitely like a large wave

568
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 10: or swamp of QAnon followers are like, you know, Southern

569
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 10: Conservatives and Catholics and Christians because q appeals to them

570
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 10: because he uses Bible versus I wouldn't say I'm religious,

571
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 10: maybe spiritual, a little bit agnostic, but not in an

572
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 10: atheist way.

573
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: And I looked it.

574
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 8: I don't know, I feel like there could be something else,

575
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 8: you know, then the three dimensions that we see. I

576
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 8: don't know what that is.

577
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: I don't know what that entails, but it feels like

578
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 3: it could be true.

579
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 8: Right at the time though, I didn't believe in the

580
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 8: whole demon thing. But what I did believe, this is

581
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 8: what I did believe that i've I had this conspiracy theory.

582
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 8: This is how fine I was into conspiracy theories before

583
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 8: I found C Right. I genuinely believe that there was

584
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 8: a race of inter dimensional alien birds who were bipedal

585
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 8: who were trying to save us from these the lack

586
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 8: of a better word, reptilians, right, And I believe that

587
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 8: Q was working with military intelligence, because that's what everyone

588
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 8: seems to believe, the US military intelligence, but that the

589
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 8: military intelligence were working with these Blue Avians. They were

590
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 8: called like you look them up the still around like

591
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 8: Corey Good he's the guy who propagates it. But like yeah,

592
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 8: like the Blue Avians are behind qan on and like

593
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 8: there was like this upho disclosure, all right, like the

594
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 8: Pentagon UFO stuff and you know you're there so and

595
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 8: Space Force had been announced, right, So I was like, yeah, dude,

596
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 8: for sure, this is like upho disclosures the Blue Avians like,

597
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 8: and they're going to save us from the Reptilians who

598
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 8: were the ones behind the compartment.

599
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: Wow. So you're you're much more in the sort of

600
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: sci fi version of the Wow. That's fascinating. So the

601
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: birds are what they are?

602
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 4: What are the.

603
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 8: Fifth fifth dimensional higher aliens who have come to our

604
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 8: dimension to stop these other fifth dimensional aliens from stealing

605
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 8: our souls, on our spirit, our energy which crosses dimensions.

606
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: Damn, I wish they were something a little bit sexier

607
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: than birds. But okay, classic joke man.

608
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. So to me, I mean this just speaks to

609
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: the thing that we always come back to here, which

610
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: is that the beliefs aren't the point.

611
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: No, because that's a very smart person talking saying very

612
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: silly things to the non indoctrinated mind.

613
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: Yes, this very silly, but I'm I mean like when

614
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: we break down many religious beliefs, like many of them

615
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: are very silly. And the whole thing, the whole thing,

616
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: the whole thing with cults is that the cult leaders

617
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: frequently change the story all the time, they change the

618
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: beliefs completely. The attachment that we experience as cult members

619
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: is not to a particular idea. It's to a community

620
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: or a person, or like feeling like we're a bigger

621
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: part of something. And that QAnon is like really exemplifies

622
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: that idea, because, as he was saying, like, everyone's things

623
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: that they believe are like vastly different in QAnon. Yes,

624
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: for some people it's about vaccines. For some people, it's

625
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: about pedophiles. For some people, it's about stop the steals.

626
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: For some people it's about bipedal bluem fifth dimensional birds.

627
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: And for some people, or for many people, it's just

628
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: extremely anti semitic. And you know, well, and.

629
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 4: People took this really seriously.

630
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: Do you remember the man in Santa Barbara, Matthew Taylor

631
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: Coleman who killed his two children, Yes, with a like

632
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: he was a very good father who was obsessed with

633
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: his children. He took them to Mexico and killed them

634
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: with a spear because he thought that they had dmon DNA.

635
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: I think this was twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, And wow.

636
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: I mean there are so many examples of it now.

637
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: It's like gotten really blurry because some of the QAnon

638
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: sort of conspiracy theories have trickled down into mainstream politics now,

639
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: as evidenced by a number of things that have happened

640
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: in the past year or two. You know, it is

641
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: extremely nangerous. I understand why conspiracy theories happened because throughout history,

642
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: let's just say American history, the government really has covered

643
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: some shit.

644
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: Up led to us.

645
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: Man, the media really does have extreme bias in many ways.

646
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: So the instinct to not trust mainstream sources, like, I

647
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: understand that same, but you can get so far down

648
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 1: that rabbit hole, I know, I know, yeah, and it's

649
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: hard to know. It can be really hard to parse

650
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: where the difference is. And so I think it's really

651
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: just about like making sure that when you are quote

652
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: doing your own research that doesn't mean just like listening

653
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: to the one guy on YouTube or like no one

654
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: Reddit thread or four chann or chann er whatever the fuck.

655
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: That's a really good point, Yeah, finding multiple sources of

656
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: different opinions and.

657
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 1: Not dismissing science out of hand, for dismissing media outlets

658
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: just because someone else told you to, you know, like.

659
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: And realizing if you're in a very fearful, vulnerable, whatever

660
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: place in your life while you're watching this stuff and

661
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: taking into consideration, is this perminating a little bit like

662
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: more deeply because I'm not rock solid?

663
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 4: Totally?

664
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: Totally, Also, y'all. Media literacy, Yeah, media literacy, because a lot,

665
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: a lot of these conspiracy theories start with just some

666
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: dude with a website who literally has no there's just

667
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: literally no evidence whatsoever for what he's saying, and people

668
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: know they can make money off of that, And I

669
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: think that's I think it's just like an absolutely evil

670
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: thing to do. But there are so many people who

671
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: run these like fake ass news websites and know that

672
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: they're gonna make a shit ton of money by stoking

673
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: fear in the population.

674
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 4: Totally, Alex Jones, anyone, All right.

675
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: Guys, So speaking of manipulation, let's move on to a

676
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: very lovely guest we've had who was in a group

677
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: that my mother and I have our own connections too,

678
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: as you can hear in episode one, India Oxenburg. India

679
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: Oxenburg is gonna tell us a little bit about some

680
00:35:51,320 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: of the practices within Nexium run by Keith Ranieri. Can

681
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: you walk us through ems? What the what was an

682
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: EM Can you tell us about that?

683
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, nobody's asked me that question, so cool.

684
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 11: So an em EM was called it's called an Exploration

685
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 11: of Meaning, and what it was within NEXIOM was kind

686
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 11: of like a therapeutic process that also involved some hypnosis.

687
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 11: But I'm giving you like what I know it is now,

688
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 11: But what it was then was a tool that they

689
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 11: used to disconnect any uncomfortable or inappropriate reactions that you

690
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 11: were having to things that you thought were getting in

691
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 11: your way. So the em was like Nexium's crown jewel

692
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 11: inside of the community, and they would use that tool

693
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 11: in the intensives, and then once you were through the

694
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 11: first five day intensive, you could purchase ems from people

695
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 11: who were called EMPs, which was like a poptician er

696
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 11: without a you know, without a license obviously, because nobody was.

697
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 9: Licensed, as we know, and it was they cobbled together

698
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 9: some things from scientology, some things from NLP, somethings from

699
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 9: hypnosis and actually therapy too, and Nancy kind of promoted.

700
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 11: Herself as a therapist when she actually is not. And

701
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 11: it's a very it's a very interesting thing to try

702
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 11: to understand now from the outside because I see it

703
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 11: as very invasive and really unethical because what they were

704
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 11: doing was kind of putting you back into your trauma

705
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 11: and then changing your feeling about it. But it actually

706
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 11: disconnects your feeling to the reaction, so you go numb

707
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 11: instead of thinking that you're healing. So the more and

708
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 11: more I did these ems, I actually thought that I

709
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 11: was getting better because I wasn't having reactions to things anymore.

710
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 11: But what was really going on was I was disconnecting

711
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 11: and disassociating from my own emotion and instinct. So I

712
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 11: just like cannot stress how important it is to have

713
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 11: licensed practitioners, like, do not let anybody tamper with your brain.

714
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: Amen. This is such a common thing that cultish groups

715
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: will do, which is make you talk about your trauma

716
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: and air all your shit out in front of someone

717
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: who isn't supposed to be doing that with.

718
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 4: You, scientology anyone.

719
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and tell you that what they're doing is healing you,

720
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: when in reality, what they're doing is kind of just

721
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: manipulating you. Yeah, and it's it's it's interesting because like

722
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, with e MDR or with exposure therapy or

723
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: all these different modalities of actual healing, like what you

724
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: are doing is you're taking out those memories and you're

725
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: kind of reframing them and over time desensitizing yourself to

726
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: them in a way that's constructive. But there's a way

727
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: to do that that is not healing, and that is

728
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: not constructive, and it kind of overwhelms me to think about,

729
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: to be honest, because our brains are just so malleable. Yeah,

730
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: there are so many ways that you can like fuck

731
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: with people if you don't understand exactly what you're doing

732
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: and if you're not coming from a place of responsibility and.

733
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: Care exactly, and Nancy was not in my personal opinion.

734
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a bummer like Keith,

735
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: you know, Keith and l Ron Hubbard and so many

736
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: of these people they are like pulling from sources that

737
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: like are biased legitimate. Well no, no, they'll they'll take

738
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: from different sources that have legitimacy to them, right, so

739
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: they feel like they're they're getting out something real and

740
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: they're inventing this new thing, but really they're just kind

741
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: of take stealing from other people and then doing it

742
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: in an unethical way and like changing it so it's

743
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: not actually healthy.

744
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: Right, Like they bias it to their own beliefs and

745
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: then change it into something so absolutely Luna, take but atlantic,

746
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: new name, new word, but it has some like basis

747
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: and science and reality and whatever, and then you get confused.

748
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: Right, We instinctively feel like dealing with our trauma is

749
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 1: you know, that's a good thing. And if someone tells

750
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: us this is how to do it, and we don't

751
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: really necessarily know better, and that person seems like an

752
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: authority and is you know, marketing themselves as an authority,

753
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: then we're going to trust that person, of course, and

754
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: make ourselves vulnerable before them, which then can allow them

755
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: to kind of move in on that vulnerability and and

756
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: make you do whatever they want.

757
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, if somebody, if something has a really weird name

758
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: emdr excluded, I'm wary of it sometimes.

759
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: I mean it's funny because many therapies I feel like

760
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: modes of yeah, they do have.

761
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 4: Very weird But if it's a religion, how about.

762
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: That totally totally, And even even some therapeutic practices I'm

763
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: sure are just by some random woman who's like I've

764
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: been yeah, yeah, our healing chromatics or something.

765
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh that sounds good, I'd sign up.

766
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: What does chromatic mean? I don't remember color. You know,

767
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: just one way. You know, whether it's in a group

768
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: or one on one with somebody who's sort of high

769
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: up in the group, these are just different ways that

770
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: cults will manipulate. Yeah, speaking of manipulation, Frank Leiford was

771
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: a member of Heaven's Gate. He is featured in the

772
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: hbo AT docu series on Heaven's Gate, and one of

773
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: the things that he's going to talk to us about

774
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: in this clip is how not only were all of

775
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: his external circumstances controlled by the group, but even his

776
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 1: own thoughts. Tell us about when the class begins, what happens.

777
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: You all kind of settle in one.

778
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 12: Area right right, and it was wyoming where we were

779
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 12: all cold together. There could have been as many as

780
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 12: two hundred people there. That was wild That was like

781
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 12: I think of the children of Israel, you know, wandering

782
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 12: in a wilderness, the people who were unruly, and the

783
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 12: people were unruly there. It's crazy.

784
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 13: So that was.

785
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,959
Speaker 12: What Tindo wanted to do, was kind of bring us

786
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 12: together into the same mindset and to help us establish

787
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 12: some kind of discipline. First, there was a lesson about

788
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 12: kind distant consideration. Things that made sense That was kind

789
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 12: of a first basic essential lesson, and a few weeks

790
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 12: or months later we had something called the seventeen Steps,

791
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 12: which were guidelines for how to live in ways that

792
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 12: were becoming two members of the next level, so that

793
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 12: we would fit in there, so that we wouldn't stick

794
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 12: out like a sore thumb, so that we wouldn't be disruptive.

795
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: Once you get to the higher plane.

796
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 4: It's kind of like alien etiquette kind.

797
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 3: Of, yes, yeah, exactly.

798
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: I wrote down from some of what I heard, and

799
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: they included things like, can you follow instructions without adding interpretation?

800
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: Can you deliver instructions as you receive them so I'm hearing,

801
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: can you follow orders and do as we say and

802
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: be controlled by us? They forbade things like clumsiness, procrastination,

803
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: and even allowed and even having private thoughts. Is that right?

804
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 3: Oh?

805
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is wild. You're not allowed to have private thoughts.

806
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: And then also arousal was forbid.

807
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

808
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: How did you feel about these steps? I mean, what

809
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: did you feel good about them?

810
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 3: Yeah?

811
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 12: Because we were already to a degree brainwashed in a sense,

812
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 12: we were motivated. You know, it's like this carrot out

813
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 12: in front of us that if you do as we

814
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 12: teach you, you will graduate, you will ascend to this

815
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 12: next evolutionary level. And during that first year, in the

816
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 12: first several years, the idea was that we would ascend

817
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 12: while conscious and alive. We would ascend consciously into this

818
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 12: next evolutionary level above human.

819
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: So tell us what vehicles means.

820
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 12: Vehicle is your body that you, as a soul inhabit,

821
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 12: which I would say is is accurate to a degree,

822
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 12: but it's it was also considered the same as a

823
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 12: car would be to a driver. So the soul is

824
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 12: the driver of the car, of the vehicle. T would

825
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 12: often say, get your mind into your vehicle, meaning get

826
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 12: your vehicle under control of your mind.

827
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 3: Kind of like a rider on a horse.

828
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 12: A rider doesn't let the horse run wild. The rider

829
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 12: keeps the horse doing what the writer wants the horse

830
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 12: to do.

831
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: So getting your sexual urges under control is a big

832
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: piece of that, right, I mean, so I am a

833
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: little familiar with that idea just having grown up Mormon,

834
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: you were sexuality is you know, there's a lot of

835
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: shame around it, and I felt a lot, you know,

836
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: anytime I would feel an urge or like masturbate or anything,

837
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: I just felt so ashamed after did you you know

838
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: how successful were you in suppressing those urges or did

839
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: you like feel shame? Like what was going on there?

840
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 12: Well, when we were on the road, we're virtually always

841
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 12: in the presence of our check partner, and the goal

842
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 12: in the assignment of check partners was if you could

843
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 12: easily be attracted to a member of the opposite sex

844
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 12: or a member of the same sex that was your

845
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 12: sexual orientation, then they would partner with someone who you

846
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 12: would not be to. You know, that was the goal.

847
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 12: It didn't always work out that way. I mean, that's

848
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 12: why some of the people left is because they found

849
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 12: some that they were attracted to and they left with them.

850
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 12: That's why I generally was partnered with the male.

851
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 1: Listening back to that, I'm like, banning private thoughts literally,

852
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: what does that mean? What other kind of thoughts are there?

853
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they're just priming people to think of

854
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: themselves as a vehicle, because how else are you going

855
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: to have people kill themselves?

856
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 11: You know?

857
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean you can't not have private thoughts,

858
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: but I guess you can convince people that there's some

859
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: sort of shared thoughts that they should be, right.

860
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: I mean, abscribing to it's really even just like this

861
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: idea of like fighting what your body is doing, Like

862
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: it's really just completely disconnecting yourself from yourself in every way.

863
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: And like I don't know if y'all, I don't know

864
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: if you'll heard this, but your brain just randomly generates

865
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: thoughts you literally can't control. And it's like the first

866
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: thing we learn in OCD, you know, work, It just

867
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: does that. So if you are going to start feeling

868
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: shamed just because you had a thought pop into your

869
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: head every time, I mean, it's just it's just setting

870
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: you up to fail and to constantly feel like you

871
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: need to do better, You need to do better, you

872
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: need to do better. Yeah, you're not going to stop

873
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: yourself from getting mourning wood, Like that's not your fault. Again,

874
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: that should be fine anyway.

875
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 4: And I don't even know if this really applies.

876
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: We can cut this out, but one thing that was

877
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: really helpful for me was just being like, Okay, I

878
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: can see in like brain scans that a healthier brain

879
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 2: is one that's not trying to control their thoughts as much.

880
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: So I believe that whoever created us, God, universe, whatever

881
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: quotation marks wants us to be the healthiest version of

882
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 2: ourselves that we can be. Why would it put four

883
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: trillion nerves and the glitterists if it's not supposed to

884
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: be touched.

885
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 4: That's insane, Your god, that weird.

886
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: Well, why also would it give men like slightly raised

887
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: men's risk of cancer if they never ejaculated.

888
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 2: That's so bad for you, you know, So with that

889
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 2: sort of guilt, just like those scientific facts always help

890
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 2: me come back to a balance.

891
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 4: I don't know if we want to leave that in

892
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 4: it won't be too much, but no.

893
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: I mean I think like in general too, Like there's

894
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: this long history of extreme groups or cultish groups or

895
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: high control groups telling you don't listen to your body,

896
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: don't listen to your body, don't listen to your body.

897
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: And what you learn then is like, don't listen to

898
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: your instincts that tell you that something's wrong, don't listen

899
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: to your own intuition, don't listen to all the red

900
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: flags that come up, because it's like disconnecting yourself from

901
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: your critical thinking exactly. It's turning that off and adding

902
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: an additional layer of extreme shame because what they're asking

903
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: for is literally impossible.

904
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 4: Absolutely impossible.

905
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you feel like you're succeeding, you're probably

906
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 2: on the inside going slowly insane.

907
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what we're saying is everybody, uh.

908
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 4: You're masturbate Yeah, please, my God, go for it.

909
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: Go for it. You won't get hair in your palms.

910
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 4: I promise hair in your palms.

911
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: You don't know about that. They used to tell boys

912
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: that if they masturbate it, they would get they would

913
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: grow hair in their palms.

914
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 4: But nobody did so then what it's please?

915
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: Come on, you think people are basing this off of

916
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: rational evidence?

917
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: Wow?

918
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 4: Okay, that was an.

919
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: Old old wives tale. I guess.

920
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: I identify as an addict, so that does get confusing

921
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: when your instincts are like, well you should have twenty beers.

922
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 4: That'll help you know totally, So there is that other

923
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 4: side of it.

924
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: No, I mean, and that's that's true for me too.

925
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: I mean, like, if I listen to all of the

926
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: anxious thoughts that come into my head, I would like

927
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: lose my mind.

928
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 4: Therapy is that what we're what we're.

929
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: Saying is like moderation and like listening to yourself to

930
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: the like, because my true self knows that those crazy

931
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: thoughts are not the thoughts I should be listening to

932
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

933
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 2: Of course, it's just you know, it's it's so few

934
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: and far between.

935
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's a reason that you sought out

936
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: twelve step programs and healing and stuff because you know

937
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: that that's not what your like true self wants right

938
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.

939
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: But it's also easy for me to, like, right now,

940
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: I'm drinking, so it's easy for me to be like whatever,

941
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: it's fine, and then it's not fine.

942
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: So you know, listen, life is complicated.

943
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 4: It is, it really really is.

944
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: I want to do a stand up joke where it's

945
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: talking about how like having mental illness is like being

946
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 2: in the movie The Notebook, but with yourselves, with yourself,

947
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 2: and every once in a while you'll come online and

948
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: like know the truth, like at the end, you know,

949
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: and you'll be like, oh my gosh, this make yourself,

950
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: this is what we should do, and then your other

951
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: self is like how much time do we have and

952
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: you're like five minutes until I go back into not

953
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 2: knowing anymore.

954
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 4: Anyway.

955
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: I have new song coming out not to plug my

956
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 1: own forthcoming music, which get coincidentally, the song is also

957
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: called tru Me, but one of the lines is about

958
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 1: that everything it's called. It says the body is wise,

959
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: but mine is broken. So but but generally speaking, what

960
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,959
Speaker 1: cults are trying to do is turn off your critical thinking.

961
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: And your body is innate awareness of yeah that it

962
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: needs great exactly.

963
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: Moving right along here. So this, the next clip that

964
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna play, is from someone whose story is just

965
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: incredibly compelling, and what we wanted to hear from him

966
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: about was his moment of sort of realizing that the

967
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: group that he was in, which was a white supremacist group,

968
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: was maybe not for him. So let's let's hear him.

969
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 4: Talk about that.

970
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 3: A buddy of mine said he can get me a

971
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 3: job carrying in and out antique furniture at an antique

972
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 3: show in Cherryhill, New Jersey for a weekend one hundred

973
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 3: bucks a day. I said to my friend, who was

974
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 3: also a neo Nazia at the time, I said, yeah,

975
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: I'll take the job. And he goes. But I gotta

976
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 3: tell you, dude, the guy that owns the company's a

977
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 3: jew like he's he's like Jewish. I just said to him,

978
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 3: I said, well, you told him, he goes. I told

979
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 3: him all about you, I said, he don't care what

980
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: I believe. And he said Frank, Keith said this, his

981
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: name is Keith Brookstein. He goes. Keith said this, You

982
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 3: don't give a rat to ask what you believe. This,

983
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 3: don't break his fucking furniture. And I showed up and

984
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 3: I worked for this guy, and at the end of

985
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: my three days he owed me three hundred dollars. I'd

986
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 3: already got paid like six hundred dollars in tips because

987
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 3: people tip you as you carry furniture to their cars.

988
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 3: And I made like six hundred dollars and tips. So

989
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 3: when this guy came up to give me my three

990
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 3: hundred dollars, I thought he was going to, you know,

991
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 3: my anti Semitic, ignorant way, he was going to jew me.

992
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 3: And he came up and he said, how much I

993
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 3: owe you on this Sunday? I said three hundred dollars, dude,

994
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: like waiting to see if he's going to argue with me,

995
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 3: you know, and he just pulled out this money. He

996
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 3: was like one, two, three, here's three hundred. He's like,

997
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 3: you know, here's an extra hundred bucks. You're a really

998
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 3: good worker. So I made one thousand dollars in that weekend,

999
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 3: and you know, you know, and there's something that we

1000
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 3: all do as human beings because we ain't too all

1001
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: far from each other. I might have been in the

1002
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 3: a Nazi, but we all have resentments. We all have

1003
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 3: those grudges, and you know, just on yourselves, you think

1004
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 3: about it. There's times where you were going to go

1005
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: to work and yesterday Nancy said something that really pissed

1006
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 3: you off. And Nancy's been in your head. You can't

1007
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 3: wait tomorrow. You know what she says, that same stuff.

1008
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 3: You're gonna argue with her. You're gonna come back at her.

1009
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 3: You plot the whole argument. You practice in the MI era.

1010
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 3: You wake up in the middle of night thinking about Nancy.

1011
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 3: You go to work, can't wait to see Nancy today.

1012
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: It's pregnant, war as stupid. Dalla's Calvin, all right, you

1013
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 3: think about Nancy, you go and then you get to

1014
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: work and you see Nancy and you're like, what's up, Nancy?

1015
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 3: And Nancy's like, now, what's going on? You're like nothing,

1016
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 3: It's all good because we love that part of having

1017
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 3: the resentment of telling Nancy off in our head. Well,

1018
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 3: I could did that with this Jewish dude. I can't

1019
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: wait to tell this dude off. He's gonna try and

1020
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 3: rip me off. He's going to try and juw me,

1021
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 3: and here here is nothing of the sorts. So then

1022
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 3: he gave me a ride home, and he says, Yo,

1023
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 3: what do you do for a living? I went into

1024
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: the slatstick on my neck and I said, I don't

1025
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 3: do anything. Man. He goes, well, why don't you come

1026
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 3: work for me? And I went and I worked for

1027
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 3: this man, and my other neo Nazi friend for him too. Wow,

1028
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 3: And Keith like he didn't take too much time with

1029
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 3: my other friend, but with me. Whenever he had to

1030
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 3: go pick up furniture, he always but Frank, get in

1031
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 3: trouble me to go get this furniture. And it'd be

1032
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 3: like in North Jersey somewhere. We'd be like two hours

1033
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 3: on the road. You'd be, hey, Frank, I gotta go

1034
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 3: pick up the starning room set so we could get

1035
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 3: it back to the warehouse and get it refinished, get

1036
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 3: it in the storefronts. I mean a dude had a business,

1037
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 3: a big business of redoing antiques. And I jump in

1038
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 3: the truck and we get to Philly Paper and I

1039
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 3: read the what's going on in the O. J. Simpson

1040
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 3: trial at the time. I read it to him and

1041
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 3: we talked and we talk about life and the trial

1042
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: and race and and we just had great conversations all

1043
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 3: the time. And I started to enjoy these rides. And

1044
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,439
Speaker 3: this guy was not religiously Jewish, but Keith. He would

1045
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 3: always go, well, hey, I mean up for East Coast

1046
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 3: Jewish hardcore, you know. And we would just always talk.

1047
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 3: And I did this one thing and which which led

1048
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 3: to me knowing it's one of the things that I

1049
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 3: know that makes me an alcoholic is I always think

1050
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 3: less of myself, you know. And I know a lot

1051
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: of people do that, but I think about myself too much,

1052
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 3: and I think too less of myself, you know. And

1053
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 3: so whenever I would make a mistake, I i'd always go, oh, Keith,

1054
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 3: I'm so stupid, you know. And I didn't say like

1055
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 3: I'm stupid, you know, like a like a skinny girl

1056
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 3: will say, oh my god, I'm fat. So everyone goes,

1057
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,919
Speaker 3: oh my god, Michelle, you're not fad. Like I didn't

1058
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 3: say I'm stupid because I wanted people to say you're

1059
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 3: not stupid. I just said it all the time, like

1060
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 3: I messed up. Oh I'm so stupid. And so one

1061
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 3: day I broke something and Keith. I was like, oh, Keith,

1062
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 3: I'm so stupid, and he came over and he just

1063
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 3: gripped me up and he goes, stop saying you're stupid,

1064
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 3: You're fucking idiot. Go and I cleaned up this chest

1065
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 3: I made and we got in the truck and I

1066
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 3: went from the fire me because it was a marbletop

1067
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 3: table I broke. It was expensive, and he just unloaded

1068
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 3: on me. He started telling me about times when he's like,

1069
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 3: remember when you said this, I remember when you figured

1070
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 3: this out, Like that's that's smart, Frank, that's you can't

1071
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 3: pay for that education you got. And I just remember

1072
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 3: listening to him and just being like so grateful to

1073
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 3: have a human being in my life with this swash

1074
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 3: to get blazing at him every day in the truck.

1075
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 3: That day Keith goes to drop me off. I still

1076
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 3: have a shaved head, I still wear my neo Nazi

1077
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 3: boots every day did this guy's work. And that was

1078
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 3: the day when he was talking to me and talking

1079
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 3: to me about how smart I was and just showing

1080
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 3: me genuine loud and concern and also called me a

1081
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 3: fucking idiot when he did that. Like I was so

1082
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 3: embarrassed at those boots on my feet that day, Like

1083
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 3: I just felt it.

1084
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, hah God, it's such an amazing story. So

1085
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: this is Frank Mink. The previous guest that we listened

1086
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 1: to was Frank Leifert, so we have two Franks in

1087
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: a row. Frank Leichford is Heaven's Gate. Frank Mink was

1088
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: a former neo Nazi, And it just brings me back

1089
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: to the same thing we talk about all the time,

1090
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: which is that like the way to get someone out

1091
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: of extreme belief is just through basic human connection yep,

1092
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: non judgmental care and connection totally.

1093
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: And not everybody's going to have the same strength to

1094
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 2: meet somebody who's compu hates them, who hates.

1095
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: Them, and that's not their job, you know, but like

1096
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: if it's your family member or someone you love, like

1097
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: I feel like every time. I mean, actually, Frank Leefford

1098
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: from Heaven's Gated, his way out started with having also

1099
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: a boss who showed him care and showed him a

1100
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 1: different kind of life than the one that he'd been

1101
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: experiencing and listened and listened, yes, and it's just like

1102
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: just just just a real connection, just a genuine, authentic

1103
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: connection without having to be like, well, fuck you for

1104
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: believing that, or I can't believe you think that.

1105
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 4: That's crazy interesting, Why do you believe that?

1106
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, just just listening and hearing someone. I

1107
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: think that's what Jaitarath also said that somebody.

1108
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 4: The people in Reddit groups were.

1109
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 2: Just listening to him and being kind to him and

1110
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: letting him spew stuff he believed and not immediately arguing

1111
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: with him.

1112
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: That's yeah, definitely, definitely, And I've seen that with loved

1113
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: ones of my own who've done really great work in

1114
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: this space. The way that you really actually help people

1115
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: is to just show them some care. And for sure,

1116
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: like that's not everyone's responsibility to take.

1117
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 2: On if somebody is just a racist bigot running their

1118
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: mouth all the time, yeah you're not.

1119
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 4: It's not your job, no.

1120
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: But but it does give me hope though, because so

1121
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: much at the time, like we see someone we care

1122
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: about falling into a rabbit hole like this, and we're like,

1123
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do. And the truth is like,

1124
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: there might be nothing you can do on the timeline

1125
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: that you want, but there is something you can do,

1126
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: and that's just be there for that person.

1127
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's difficult. It is difficult.

1128
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: It is difficult, and I think it's especially difficult when

1129
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: they're still very much embedded in the community. But if

1130
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: you remain a presence in their life. The thing we

1131
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: hear over and over again is that when they're ready,

1132
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: and when that group is no longer serving them and

1133
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: they know that they have someone else and they have

1134
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: an alternative lifestyle available to them, then they'll come Yeah.

1135
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: I just yeah, that's such an amazing story. All Right,

1136
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: you guys, Well, we're nearing the end of the cult

1137
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: journey here. We have one more guest that we're going

1138
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: to hear from, and we wanted to touch on what

1139
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: it's like if you've actually experienced some of this kind

1140
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: of trauma. Are we beholden to this trauma forever? You know?

1141
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: And the answer is probably not. We will hear from

1142
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: Richard Tedeski, who is a professor of psychology who helped

1143
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: originate the concept of post traumatic growth. For me and

1144
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: for some of my friends who've had traumatic experiences too,

1145
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: the hardest part is like, what is happening, What is happening?

1146
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: Why is this happening? And it feels chaotic, and it

1147
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: feels like you have no again, no control over the

1148
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: world and the universe and yourself. And so just like

1149
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: breaking it apart has been something that's been life changing

1150
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: for me. I'm like, Okay, this is what I'm experiencing,

1151
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: this is why it's happening. Organizing it is. Yeah, that

1152
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: just makes a lot of sense to me because that

1153
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: was what was helpful for me.

1154
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 2: Getting so mad at yourself too, you know, if you're

1155
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 2: not whatever, but then if you reframe it is, oh,

1156
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm working out almost like I'm getting stronger,

1157
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 2: then that's a whole different period of time.

1158
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: But you have to like being able to name what's

1159
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: happening to you and like have a way of understanding

1160
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: what happened to me. That was like the most important thing,

1161
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: and I think for my mom that was the most

1162
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: important thing too, because especially people who've been in cults,

1163
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't understand what's just happened to me.

1164
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: You know, it feels chaotic, and.

1165
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 13: Making sense of things is really important. I work for

1166
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 13: an organization called Bouldercrest Foundation in Bluemont, Virginia, and we

1167
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 13: serve their military veterans and first responders like firefighters, police EMTs,

1168
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 13: people have been through trauma mostly because of their work

1169
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 13: and have trauma histories, so we have our program is

1170
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 13: based on the postermake Growth concept. One of the things

1171
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 13: in our program that we emphasize is that we give

1172
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 13: them message it's not what's wrong with you, it's what

1173
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 13: happened unto you. Because so many of these men and

1174
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 13: women come to us with diagnoses of PTSD or something,

1175
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 13: They've gotten lots of messages that they're broken and they're damaged,

1176
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 13: and they start to feel useless, and we emphasize that

1177
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 13: you know, it's about the events that you've gone through

1178
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 13: in your life and what it's done to your way

1179
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 13: of understanding yourself, understanding the world around you that you

1180
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 13: live in, and robbing you of a future that feels

1181
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 13: like it's going to be purposeful and meaningful. We especially

1182
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 13: find this with veterans coming out of their service, don't

1183
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 13: know any longer what they're supposed to do with themselves,

1184
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 13: and have perhaps seen and experienced some terrible things. We

1185
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 13: have to help them see that there's a further purpose

1186
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 13: to life in a way that they can serve and

1187
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 13: be useful, so their lives continue in a direction where

1188
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 13: there's an ongoing story of possibility for them. Another thing

1189
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 13: that we emphasize with post traumatic growth, it's important to

1190
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 13: have for people to have a mission. It's important for

1191
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 13: people to have something to do that benefits other people,

1192
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 13: not just makes them feel better or it takes care

1193
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 13: of some symptoms they have, like nightmares or something. It

1194
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 13: goes beyond that. You've got to have a reason for

1195
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,479
Speaker 13: living that benefits people out there in the world, whether

1196
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 13: it's your family or your neighborhood, or your city, or

1197
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,439
Speaker 13: your organization, or your country or somebody beyond you. That's

1198
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 13: what's important, because otherwise the suffering you've gone through may

1199
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 13: feel like it's just in vain.

1200
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 4: What is catastrophe theory?

1201
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, well, catastrophe theory is a theory which posits that

1202
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 13: there are certain breaking points that you cannot reconstruct what's

1203
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 13: been broken and have it be in the same form.

1204
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 13: You know, if you have a piece of material and

1205
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,479
Speaker 13: you start to put pressures on it, eventually it'll break.

1206
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 13: And different materials break different plastic, steel, whatever. They break

1207
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 13: it in different times with different amount of pressure, and

1208
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 13: once it's broken, you can't just put it back together

1209
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 13: and it'd be exactly the same as it was. So

1210
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 13: same thing with post traumatic growth. I mean, we break

1211
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 13: in a way because of these events, and we put

1212
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 13: ourselves back together, but we're different. We can't go back

1213
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 13: to the way we used to be, which is a

1214
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 13: good thing. In the new version of us, we're maybe

1215
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 13: better and more than we were in the old version.

1216
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 13: So for example, on the cover of the book that

1217
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 13: I mentioned Transformed by Trauma Stories of post Traumatic Growth,

1218
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 13: we have a picture of a piece of pottery that's

1219
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 13: been broken and put back together with gold.

1220
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: Right, It's that one method that I always forget the

1221
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: name of.

1222
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 13: It's a Japanese art called konsugi, and they deliberately break

1223
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 13: these pieces of pottery and put them back together with

1224
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 13: precious metals and showing that it's even more beautiful than

1225
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 13: it was when it was whole.

1226
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1227
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: So this is from our Rethinking Trauma series that we

1228
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: did back in March of this year, which I still

1229
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: am so proud of those.

1230
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 4: Episodes me too. They were so informative.

1231
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: It's just such an important thing to give ourselves a

1232
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: path forward and not like conceive of the fact that

1233
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: we have been harmed in some way or we've experienced

1234
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 1: pain in some way as something that's going to like

1235
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: ruin our lives, yeah, or like just will never heal

1236
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 1: from it or get better. Like to me, that's just

1237
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: just disempowering and not true. And so it was so

1238
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: refreshing and so fascinating to hear from all these different

1239
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: people about like here are different ways that you can grow.

1240
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Alicia ba right mm hmm, our last

1241
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 2: guest went through hell.

1242
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 4: She went through hell and she is really thriving.

1243
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: It's true. It's like when you're first out of you know,

1244
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: an abusive experience or a high control group or whatever.

1245
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: I think it can feel so vague and confusing, and

1246
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: there's so much shame and surmountable like you just don't

1247
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: really know where to place yourself in the world anymore.

1248
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no context for it. You're like lost in

1249
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 4: the mud.

1250
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: You're like, what that was my whole life? If that's

1251
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 1: not real, then like what where is my meaning going

1252
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 1: to come from?

1253
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 2: And I think people who haven't experienced that in the

1254
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 2: cult form could see it in like a bad relationship

1255
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: for them totally when you get out of one and

1256
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 2: you're just like whoa, I'm lost what is everything? And

1257
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 2: then a couple of years or however long it takes,

1258
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 2: you're like, I cannot believe I almost just ruined my

1259
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 2: whole life for this relationship. And I can now see

1260
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 2: it clearly and everything's in perspective again. But for those

1261
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 2: first couple, however long it takes, you're really yeah, there's

1262
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 2: no like focal point, which is why therapy.

1263
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: Is so important totally. And it comes back to something

1264
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: that Richard Tchedesky was talking about a lot, which is

1265
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: that like our personal and something my mom talks about

1266
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: a lot, which is that our personal narrative, like the

1267
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: story we tell ourselves and others of our lives, is

1268
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: so crucial to healing from difficult things that we've experienced. Right,

1269
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 1: I like things to be very like logical and like scientific,

1270
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: So that part of my brain really hates that. And

1271
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 1: I think I talked about that a little bit too,

1272
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: because storytelling is so subjective. If you can just like

1273
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 1: we've an experience, you hadn't to your story. I mean

1274
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: that could just be any story, So like, what does

1275
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: anything even mean if it's just completely subjective and you're

1276
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 1: making it up. But the truth is, well, you're not

1277
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: making it up for one and for another. You can

1278
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: create a story for yourself that is true, that accurately

1279
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 1: reflects what has happened to you, but does it in

1280
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: a way that helps you to grow and change and

1281
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: heal and get better, as opposed to I'm fucked and

1282
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 1: fucked and fucked and fucked and fuck.

1283
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 4: There's two sides to every story, even in your own brain.

1284
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: It's true, it's true. It's yeah, yeah, believe me. That

1285
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: dialogue is just constantly, that's battle is constant in my head.

1286
01:06:58,440 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 4: Oh the same.

1287
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: But no, it gives me a lot of hope. And

1288
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 1: hearing so many of our guest stories gives me a

1289
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: lot of hope because the just these are such incredible people.

1290
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: Everyone we've had on has just been so strong and

1291
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 1: incredible and articulate and interesting and have overcome so much.

1292
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 4: Lots of knowledge to be gleaned from these people.

1293
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I am proud of our hundred episodes of Trust

1294
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: Me Me Too.

1295
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 4: Steve is clapping, producer, Steve's.

1296
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,919
Speaker 1: Professor, Steve is clapping, Yes, Steve, thank you, Gabby, thank

1297
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: you everyone. Yeah, Thanks y'all so much for listening to us,

1298
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 1: even if it's your first time. Thanks for listening one time,

1299
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: but if it's your hundred time, Wow, thank you for

1300
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 1: listening one hundred times.

1301
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 2: Leave us a comment on Apple or wherever you leave

1302
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: comments and rate us five stars.

1303
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: Why not yeah, five stars? Come on five stars?

1304
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 4: No, y'all.

1305
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and we will be back with

1306
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: a regular episode next week.

1307
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, we'll see you next week, and as all,

1308
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 2: always remember to follow your gup, watch out for red flags.

1309
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: And never ever try trust me boop Lada. Trust Me

1310
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1311
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1312
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 1: And her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1313
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1314
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 2: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at trust.

1315
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast. I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola

1316
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: Lola on Twitter.

1317
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1318
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 2: Hicks on Twitter.

1319
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: Remember to rate and review and spread the word