1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:27,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The COVID nineteen pandemic has brought lots of odd 2 00:00:27,756 --> 00:00:31,476 Speaker 1: new expressions and concepts into the public consciousness, things like 3 00:00:31,676 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: social distancing, variant of concern, flattening the curve fomites. But 4 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:40,236 Speaker 1: the new post COVID concept I want to focus on 5 00:00:40,276 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 1: today is one that I find especially interesting from the 6 00:00:43,076 --> 00:00:47,236 Speaker 1: perspective of thinking about our negative emotions. That concept is 7 00:00:47,516 --> 00:00:51,356 Speaker 1: the great resignation. It's a term coined by Anthony Clots, 8 00:00:51,596 --> 00:00:54,956 Speaker 1: an expert in organizational behavior at Texas A and M University. 9 00:00:55,316 --> 00:00:57,996 Speaker 1: He used the term to describe the massive and historically 10 00:00:58,076 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 1: unprecedented number of people who've decided to quit their jobs 11 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:04,756 Speaker 1: just over the last few years. Economists have been puzzled 12 00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 1: by many aspects of this resignation trend, especially when you 13 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: take into account which workers seem to be bailing on 14 00:01:10,796 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: their jobs in record numbers. Because research shows the massive 15 00:01:14,516 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: exodus we're seeing is not just caused by low paid 16 00:01:17,036 --> 00:01:20,196 Speaker 1: workers seeking a higher living wage or employees in their 17 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:22,956 Speaker 1: twenties seeking something new in a wide open job market. 18 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:26,236 Speaker 1: The Great Resignation seems to be driven instead by highly 19 00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:29,436 Speaker 1: skilled and often well paid mid career workers. People in 20 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: their late thirties and forties. They're the one, statistically speaking, 21 00:01:32,916 --> 00:01:35,836 Speaker 1: who seem to be ditching their jobs in droves. But 22 00:01:35,916 --> 00:01:39,356 Speaker 1: as a psychologist, I'm more interested in the emotional states 23 00:01:39,396 --> 00:01:41,676 Speaker 1: that are driving so many people to just up and 24 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: quit a career that many of them have had for 25 00:01:44,116 --> 00:01:47,156 Speaker 1: over a decade. And if we look at the reason why, 26 00:01:47,436 --> 00:01:50,156 Speaker 1: it's because a lot of us are just not feeling 27 00:01:50,236 --> 00:01:53,516 Speaker 1: okay at work. And I really mean us as in 28 00:01:53,796 --> 00:01:57,836 Speaker 1: me too. As a busy professor, researcher, head of college, speaker, 29 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 1: and podcaster, I definitely know what it's like to feel 30 00:02:00,676 --> 00:02:03,756 Speaker 1: physically and emotionally overwhelmed at the end of the week, 31 00:02:04,396 --> 00:02:06,316 Speaker 1: to have so much stress that you react to the 32 00:02:06,316 --> 00:02:08,876 Speaker 1: people around you with less empathy than you'd like to. 33 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:11,236 Speaker 1: I know what it feels like to worry that you're 34 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 1: going to absolutely lose it if even one tiny new 35 00:02:14,076 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: task gets added to your plate. And if you are 36 00:02:16,836 --> 00:02:22,396 Speaker 1: feeling that way, please know it's not you. It's burnout. Burnout. 37 00:02:22,516 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 1: This all too common overwhelmed psychological state is the feeling 38 00:02:26,876 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 1: we'll be covering in this final episode on our series 39 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:33,036 Speaker 1: on Difficult Emotions. We're going to trace its origins way 40 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:36,516 Speaker 1: farther back in human history than the Great Resignation. But 41 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:40,836 Speaker 1: perhaps most importantly, we'll hear some strategies for navigating burnout 42 00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 1: and ideally getting rid of it for good. You're listening 43 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 1: to the Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos. One 44 00:02:52,276 --> 00:02:54,636 Speaker 1: of the suckiest things about burnout is that the science 45 00:02:54,676 --> 00:02:56,636 Speaker 1: shows that it can sneak up on you when your 46 00:02:56,676 --> 00:03:00,196 Speaker 1: life is seemingly going really well. That's what happened to 47 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 1: Jonathan Mollssic, author of the recent book The End of Burnout, 48 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 1: Why Work Drains Us and How to build Better lives. 49 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: Jonathan's burnout began soon after we got his dream job 50 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:14,516 Speaker 1: as a tenured college professor. I would wake up in 51 00:03:14,556 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: the morning and dread having to go to work. My 52 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 1: constant thought was, oh, not this again. Often I would 53 00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:23,076 Speaker 1: get up and then a couple hours later I would 54 00:03:23,116 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: have to go back to sleep. I was just that tired. 55 00:03:26,236 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 1: I had a hard time preparing for class. All that 56 00:03:30,116 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 1: stuff that I had taught myself to do to be 57 00:03:33,436 --> 00:03:36,916 Speaker 1: an effective teacher was just gone from my brain. I 58 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:40,636 Speaker 1: just was not thinking straight, and I wasn't taking much 59 00:03:40,636 --> 00:03:44,316 Speaker 1: satisfaction in the work anymore. At some point I took 60 00:03:44,396 --> 00:03:47,556 Speaker 1: unpaid leave because I was just like, something is wrong 61 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:49,356 Speaker 1: and I didn't have a name for it. I didn't 62 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:51,676 Speaker 1: know what was wrong, but I thought, Okay, if I 63 00:03:51,716 --> 00:03:55,156 Speaker 1: take a semester away from the college, I can rest, 64 00:03:55,276 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 1: I can recharge and get a new perspective. And after 65 00:03:58,716 --> 00:04:02,956 Speaker 1: that semester I came back and nothing changed, absolutely nothing. 66 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:05,996 Speaker 1: I was every bit as exhausted in this period. I 67 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:09,516 Speaker 1: stress eight, I stress drank, and I was just utterly 68 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 1: miserable in my dream job. Eventually, my wife, who was 69 00:04:14,716 --> 00:04:18,516 Speaker 1: also an academic, got a job offer far away from 70 00:04:18,516 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 1: where we were living, and that was the perfect opportunity. 71 00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:25,676 Speaker 1: I turned in my letter of resignation and well, honestly, 72 00:04:25,716 --> 00:04:28,156 Speaker 1: that was the end of the burnout. Was utterly tied 73 00:04:28,196 --> 00:04:30,196 Speaker 1: to the job. To actually figured out what was going 74 00:04:30,236 --> 00:04:32,436 Speaker 1: on when you quit this dream job you had, But 75 00:04:32,516 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 1: that was when you get some real insight, you know. 76 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 1: So how did you learn what was going on? So 77 00:04:36,516 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: being an academic, being a researcher, being ultimately a nerd 78 00:04:40,196 --> 00:04:43,556 Speaker 1: at part, I went in a dove into the literature, 79 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:46,996 Speaker 1: and the name I kept seeing over and over again 80 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:52,636 Speaker 1: was Christina Maslac, a social psychologist at University of California, Berkeley, 81 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:56,756 Speaker 1: who had been writing about burnout for deck Gades. I 82 00:04:56,836 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 1: read her first book. It read like my professional biography. 83 00:05:02,676 --> 00:05:07,436 Speaker 1: It was a revelation. I suddenly knew that it wasn't 84 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 1: just something wrong with me. I was part of the 85 00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:17,156 Speaker 1: whole cultural problem of burnout that had been ongoing for decades. 86 00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: And so these days we talk about burnout a lot. 87 00:05:19,796 --> 00:05:21,076 Speaker 1: And one of the things you talk about in the 88 00:05:21,076 --> 00:05:22,796 Speaker 1: book is the fact that we kind of use this 89 00:05:22,916 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 1: term sloppily. So tell me what you mean here and 90 00:05:25,036 --> 00:05:28,596 Speaker 1: give me some examples. An example is that I ran 91 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 1: across a not very scientific survey. Let's at ninety six 92 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:37,916 Speaker 1: percent of millennials are burned out, which is just a 93 00:05:37,996 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 1: nonsense number. And part of the problem is that in 94 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:45,716 Speaker 1: a culture that really values work as one of the 95 00:05:45,796 --> 00:05:49,716 Speaker 1: highest activities that a person can do. If you're working, 96 00:05:49,796 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 1: if you're working hard, you simply are a meritorious person. 97 00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 1: Then claiming that you're burned out is kind of a 98 00:05:58,676 --> 00:06:02,036 Speaker 1: status marker. It's a badge of honor. And this is 99 00:06:02,036 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that I think some scientists are 100 00:06:03,956 --> 00:06:05,716 Speaker 1: really looking at right like, trying to come up with 101 00:06:05,836 --> 00:06:08,596 Speaker 1: more of a scientific definition of burnout. So with the 102 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 1: caveat there are a lot of different misconceptions about this concept. 103 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 1: You know what do the scientists say, you know, what 104 00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:15,996 Speaker 1: are the kind of parts of burnout we should be 105 00:06:15,996 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: paying attention to. Yeah. The three main parts of burnout 106 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:24,956 Speaker 1: that Christina Maslack and her many co authors have been 107 00:06:24,996 --> 00:06:30,396 Speaker 1: working with for decades are exhaustion sometimes called emotional exhaustion, 108 00:06:31,236 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 1: cynicism sometimes called depersonalization, and a reduced sense of effectiveness. 109 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 1: After I quit my job, I took the Maslack burnout inventory. 110 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: I feel emotionally drained from my work every day. I 111 00:06:48,276 --> 00:06:52,996 Speaker 1: scored in the ninety eight percent time on exhaustion and 112 00:06:53,476 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 1: pretty high on the other two measures. I feel exhilarated 113 00:06:58,356 --> 00:07:03,076 Speaker 1: after working closely with my students once a month. I 114 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 1: feel like I'm at the end of my rope a 115 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:07,916 Speaker 1: few times a week. I have to admit like I 116 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 1: felt kind of out of myself for that. So four 117 00:07:12,716 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 1: or five years later, when I was working on the book, 118 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:20,116 Speaker 1: I took the masle borout inventory again. I feel emotionally 119 00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:25,076 Speaker 1: drained from my work once a month. I feel exhilarated 120 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:29,796 Speaker 1: after working closely with my students A few times a month, 121 00:07:30,396 --> 00:07:32,196 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. 122 00:07:32,916 --> 00:07:37,076 Speaker 1: Never the percentile scores were much much lower, you know, 123 00:07:37,156 --> 00:07:41,516 Speaker 1: single digits, and on that scale things had had changed 124 00:07:41,716 --> 00:07:45,596 Speaker 1: radically because so much of my working life had changed. 125 00:07:46,196 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: So let's kind of jump into each of these elements 126 00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:50,436 Speaker 1: because I think they're kind of important to understand, maybe 127 00:07:50,436 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 1: starting with what might be the most obvious one culturally, 128 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:55,716 Speaker 1: which is this idea of exhaustion, right to talk about 129 00:07:55,716 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: how exhaustion manifested in your situation. Exhaustion is not just tiredness. 130 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:04,996 Speaker 1: We all know what tiredness is like. At the end 131 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: of the day. If you've been working hard, you're you're tired. 132 00:08:07,996 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 1: While you're tired just being awake at the end of 133 00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:14,036 Speaker 1: a project, you might feel like you really need a 134 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 1: few days off in order to recharge and get back 135 00:08:16,956 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 1: to work again at your normal capacity. The exhaustion of 136 00:08:21,276 --> 00:08:25,076 Speaker 1: burnout is much more chronic than that. It isn't the 137 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:28,116 Speaker 1: kind of thing that a little bit of time off 138 00:08:28,316 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 1: can cure. In my case, I took five months and 139 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:36,276 Speaker 1: it didn't make a dent in my exhaustion. As soon 140 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: I was back in the context of my job, the 141 00:08:40,116 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 1: exhaustion returned. And that's because burnout is something that has 142 00:08:47,076 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 1: to do with your relationship to your job. It is 143 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:54,436 Speaker 1: caused by being stretched between your ideals for work and 144 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,396 Speaker 1: the reality of your job. If you just remove yourself 145 00:08:57,396 --> 00:08:59,996 Speaker 1: from that situation, well the exhaustion is eventually going to 146 00:09:00,076 --> 00:09:02,796 Speaker 1: go away. But if you go back to that situation 147 00:09:02,836 --> 00:09:06,556 Speaker 1: and your job hasn't changed, well, no surprise, the exhaustion 148 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:10,316 Speaker 1: is going to return to. So that's the second part 149 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:13,116 Speaker 1: of burnout, according to the scientific definition, is this idea 150 00:09:13,156 --> 00:09:16,396 Speaker 1: of depersonalization or cynicism. You know, how did this play 151 00:09:16,396 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 1: out in your own job? In my case, I found 152 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: myself getting irrationally angry at very minor perceived slights. My 153 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 1: temper became very short. I had less patience for ordinary 154 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:38,676 Speaker 1: obstacles that students face. And yeah, I mean I saw 155 00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:42,196 Speaker 1: the students as a problem. I saw the students as 156 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: unwilling to learn, and that felt offensive to me. It 157 00:09:47,516 --> 00:09:50,596 Speaker 1: felt like an attack on my personhood. And then the 158 00:09:50,636 --> 00:09:53,316 Speaker 1: final way that burnout manifests beyond this idea of being 159 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:56,636 Speaker 1: emotionally exhausted and all the cynicism that comes up, is 160 00:09:56,636 --> 00:10:00,076 Speaker 1: this idea of a reduced personal accomplishment. Again, what is 161 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:01,756 Speaker 1: this sort of in terms of burnout and how did 162 00:10:01,756 --> 00:10:05,356 Speaker 1: this manifest in your own case? In general, this means 163 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:08,876 Speaker 1: that you feel like your work is not effective, that 164 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: not doing a good job, and that's a feeling that 165 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:16,316 Speaker 1: can be totally detached from reality. In my case, I 166 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 1: felt like a complete failure. You know. I perceived the 167 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:25,516 Speaker 1: students is not learning and simultaneously was frustrated with them, 168 00:10:25,636 --> 00:10:30,076 Speaker 1: but also turned that frustration back on myself, and it's like, well, 169 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? It seemed like the students were 170 00:10:32,996 --> 00:10:36,076 Speaker 1: learning nothing from me. That probably doesn't line up perfectly 171 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 1: with reality. I probably was doing a better job than 172 00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:43,036 Speaker 1: I realized. I continued to have a sympathetic department chair. 173 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:46,116 Speaker 1: She thought I was generally doing a good job, but 174 00:10:46,356 --> 00:10:49,076 Speaker 1: I just couldn't see it. You've talked about the specifics 175 00:10:49,076 --> 00:10:51,316 Speaker 1: of this phenomena of bran out playing out in other 176 00:10:51,396 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 1: kinds of jobs where you're not even seeing that. I'm 177 00:10:53,236 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 1: thinking about the paper pushers and the box tickers, you know, 178 00:10:56,076 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 1: talk about how this can play out in the context 179 00:10:57,956 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 1: of those kinds of jobs. In a large study of 180 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:07,196 Speaker 1: workers in a hospital system, it was found that administrative workers, 181 00:11:07,396 --> 00:11:10,836 Speaker 1: so the people who know ever calls a hero. The 182 00:11:10,916 --> 00:11:14,956 Speaker 1: people who don't get applause at seven pm to honor 183 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 1: their work, they're more susceptible to the feeling of ineffectiveness 184 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:25,956 Speaker 1: than say, their colleagues who are physicians or nurses, who 185 00:11:25,956 --> 00:11:29,316 Speaker 1: are more susceptible to the feelings of exhaustion. And I 186 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 1: think that burnout research needs to take a closer look 187 00:11:33,596 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 1: at the nuances of how people in different professions experience burnouts, 188 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 1: because the overlooked administrative worker is likely to experience it 189 00:11:45,316 --> 00:11:49,676 Speaker 1: differently than the nurse who is on her feet for 190 00:11:49,836 --> 00:11:53,836 Speaker 1: twelve hours a day running around dealing with the severe illness. 191 00:11:54,716 --> 00:11:57,756 Speaker 1: These symptoms may make burnout seem like it's a recent phenomenon, 192 00:11:58,276 --> 00:12:00,116 Speaker 1: but when we get back from the break, we'll see 193 00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:02,876 Speaker 1: that this awful feeling isn't brought on by post pandemic 194 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 1: life or even the modern workplace. We'll see the understanding 195 00:12:06,836 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 1: the history of this condition might be the key to 196 00:12:09,116 --> 00:12:18,916 Speaker 1: mixing it. The happiness lab will be right back. These days, 197 00:12:18,916 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 1: it can feel like so many of us are reaching 198 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 1: the point of burnout, but author Jonathan Molessek argues that 199 00:12:24,516 --> 00:12:28,196 Speaker 1: the phenomena of burnout itself isn't all that new, some 200 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: kind of exhaustion that is more than physical tiredness has 201 00:12:34,516 --> 00:12:36,956 Speaker 1: been part of the human condition for a very long time. 202 00:12:37,276 --> 00:12:43,076 Speaker 1: One of the early documented exhaustion disorders is melancholia, which 203 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:47,916 Speaker 1: has roots in ancient Greek medicine, and you know the 204 00:12:47,916 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: theory of the Four humors, and acida, which particularly was 205 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:58,276 Speaker 1: thought to afflict Christian monks, and a later version of 206 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:03,596 Speaker 1: melancholia that appeared in the Renaissance thought to afflict artistic elite. 207 00:13:04,036 --> 00:13:08,276 Speaker 1: All of these disorders were thought to afflict the elite 208 00:13:09,116 --> 00:13:13,076 Speaker 1: into exhaustion. That gets the attention is the exhaustion of 209 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: the elite. So a great parallel with burnout is neurasthenia, 210 00:13:18,116 --> 00:13:23,316 Speaker 1: or nervous exhaustion, which was first identified a hundred years 211 00:13:23,356 --> 00:13:29,716 Speaker 1: prior to Maslac and Freudenberger identifying burnout. What neurasthenia looked 212 00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:36,356 Speaker 1: like was this very broad array of potential symptoms from 213 00:13:36,716 --> 00:13:42,716 Speaker 1: dyspepsia to I think baldness, and it became kind of 214 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:49,116 Speaker 1: a cultural phenomenon. Many writers both were diagnosed with neurasthenia 215 00:13:49,196 --> 00:13:54,636 Speaker 1: and also wrote about neurasthenic characters. Virginia Woolf, Henry James, 216 00:13:55,196 --> 00:14:00,316 Speaker 1: the Social theorist Max Weber, Oscar Wilde, Marcel Proust. You know, 217 00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 1: neurasthenia kind of went off the rails. It became considered 218 00:14:05,316 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: so widespread as to become meaningless, and the cultural understanding 219 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 1: of it went way beyond the scientific understanding. And my 220 00:14:14,996 --> 00:14:18,556 Speaker 1: concern is that we could do the same with burnout 221 00:14:18,956 --> 00:14:22,676 Speaker 1: if we don't get clear on what scientists are saying 222 00:14:22,716 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 1: about it. And in that case, we'll just repeat the 223 00:14:25,956 --> 00:14:30,356 Speaker 1: cycle over and over. We'll just never properly deal with 224 00:14:30,756 --> 00:14:35,116 Speaker 1: this kind of exhaustion that causes people a lot of pain. 225 00:14:35,676 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 1: And so I think really kind of coming to terms 226 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 1: with this definition of burnout requires looking a little bit 227 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 1: more historically what's going on, you know, so talk about 228 00:14:43,156 --> 00:14:46,716 Speaker 1: where this idea came from. Burnout was first theorized in 229 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:50,156 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. And at the same time that Maslac 230 00:14:50,236 --> 00:14:55,956 Speaker 1: and Friedenberger are theorizing burnout, Bob Dylan is singing about burnout, 231 00:14:56,156 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 1: Neil Young is singing about burnout. So there's something culturally 232 00:15:00,956 --> 00:15:05,396 Speaker 1: in the air. And I think what it was was 233 00:15:06,356 --> 00:15:12,756 Speaker 1: these massive changes in the American workforce that were underway 234 00:15:12,876 --> 00:15:17,676 Speaker 1: that began in the nineteen sixties and really came to 235 00:15:17,716 --> 00:15:21,916 Speaker 1: a head in the mid nineteen seventies. An old understanding 236 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:25,076 Speaker 1: of work was dying and a new understanding of work 237 00:15:25,356 --> 00:15:28,156 Speaker 1: was being born. And then this new idea of work 238 00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 1: really had elements where interesting things were shifting. Before, companies 239 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:34,916 Speaker 1: kind of dealt with their risk of what was going 240 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:36,716 Speaker 1: on by kind of putting that all at risk in 241 00:15:36,796 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 1: kind of a capital right, but there was kind of 242 00:15:38,836 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: a shift to thinking about this risk for the workers, right. 243 00:15:41,836 --> 00:15:44,076 Speaker 1: It was kind of the workers responsibility, you know, to 244 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 1: talk about what this shift was and kind of how 245 00:15:46,276 --> 00:15:49,316 Speaker 1: it affected sort of increases and burnout. If you look 246 00:15:49,356 --> 00:15:56,036 Speaker 1: at a chart of workers productivity and their wages beginning 247 00:15:56,036 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five, you see that as productivity increased, 248 00:16:00,956 --> 00:16:07,836 Speaker 1: wages increased in exact proportion. Then you very suddenly see 249 00:16:08,036 --> 00:16:14,316 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three or seventy four, productivity continuing to rise, 250 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:20,996 Speaker 1: wages become flat. So there's an increasing gap between what 251 00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 1: workers are producing for their employers and what they're getting 252 00:16:26,236 --> 00:16:31,836 Speaker 1: in pay and benefits. That is one huge marker of 253 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 1: a shift in economic thinking and business doctrines. And subsequent 254 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: to that, companies began an official policy where there's a 255 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: core of long term salaried employees, and then a periphery 256 00:16:50,076 --> 00:16:55,116 Speaker 1: of contractors, part time workers in academia, adjuncts like me 257 00:16:55,676 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 1: who have very little job security, often lower wages. But 258 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,476 Speaker 1: because they're not official employees, if you just let them go, 259 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 1: no one notices. You know, like the Wall Street Journal 260 00:17:07,076 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: isn't going to report on the ending of a thousand 261 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:14,716 Speaker 1: workers contracts the way it would report on ten thousand 262 00:17:14,716 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 1: people laid off from an auto plant in Ohio. So 263 00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 1: that was a big historical change in the way we 264 00:17:20,316 --> 00:17:22,756 Speaker 1: think about work. But another one is that there was 265 00:17:22,756 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: also kind of a historical change, maybe even a longer 266 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:28,836 Speaker 1: term one, from workers mostly doing manufacturing to kind of 267 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:31,236 Speaker 1: shifting to service work. And you've argued that this has 268 00:17:31,276 --> 00:17:34,116 Speaker 1: some like pretty important psychological effects that might be related 269 00:17:34,156 --> 00:17:36,996 Speaker 1: to burnout. You know. One is this idea of depersonalization, 270 00:17:37,196 --> 00:17:39,716 Speaker 1: Like you know, you got to kind of get over 271 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:42,356 Speaker 1: the fact that service work can be emotionally exhausting. You know, 272 00:17:42,396 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how this plays out. The 273 00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:50,196 Speaker 1: six season seventies was when more workers were becoming college 274 00:17:50,316 --> 00:17:55,956 Speaker 1: educated and going into service professions. You think about a 275 00:17:55,996 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 1: psychologist or a social worker, or today virtually any kind 276 00:18:00,276 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: of office worker. They're kind of always on the clock. 277 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:08,996 Speaker 1: The means of production for them is their own psychology, 278 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 1: their own emotions awful. And so when your emotional life 279 00:18:14,276 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 1: is on the line like that, when it's your tool 280 00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: for getting your job done, you're more and more exposed 281 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:24,396 Speaker 1: to those tensions between ideals and reality, and this notion 282 00:18:24,436 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: of lofty ideals. I think it's to the second thing 283 00:18:26,756 --> 00:18:29,036 Speaker 1: that might play out in the service procession, which is that, 284 00:18:29,396 --> 00:18:30,956 Speaker 1: you know, we like to think that, you know, as 285 00:18:31,036 --> 00:18:33,596 Speaker 1: educated workers, we're going to have this really meaningful job. 286 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:37,596 Speaker 1: But another trend over history is the proliferation of so 287 00:18:37,676 --> 00:18:41,276 Speaker 1: called bullshit jobs. You know, so, what are bullshit jobs 288 00:18:41,276 --> 00:18:43,716 Speaker 1: and how can this contribute to a sense of ineffectiveness 289 00:18:43,716 --> 00:18:48,356 Speaker 1: on the job? Bullshit jobs is a term was coined 290 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:52,956 Speaker 1: by the anthropologist David Graver, who very sadly passed away 291 00:18:53,156 --> 00:18:57,916 Speaker 1: about a year ago, and Graver defines bullshit jobs as 292 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:02,396 Speaker 1: jobs that no one can really say what you're doing, 293 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 1: including the worker themselves. So you, as the employee can't 294 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:11,716 Speaker 1: even exactly say what the point of your job is. 295 00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:17,436 Speaker 1: So people whose job is to assess the assessment protocols 296 00:19:17,516 --> 00:19:20,516 Speaker 1: of some other industry, it seems like that work doesn't 297 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:23,916 Speaker 1: necessarily need to be done. So it's very easy to 298 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:27,436 Speaker 1: see how someone who is in a bulshit job would 299 00:19:27,476 --> 00:19:30,036 Speaker 1: feel a sense of ineffectiveness. And one of the ideas 300 00:19:30,036 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 1: that's pretty hollow is just this notion that we are 301 00:19:33,156 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: what our work is. You know, in some sense, we 302 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:37,356 Speaker 1: don't work to live, We wind up living to work. 303 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 1: You know, did this kind of play out in your 304 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 1: own case of feeling burnt out? Absolutely? Being an academic 305 00:19:44,436 --> 00:19:49,716 Speaker 1: was a huge part of my identity for almost two 306 00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: decades of my life. So the time that I spent 307 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:55,596 Speaker 1: in graduate school and then the eleven years that I 308 00:19:55,636 --> 00:20:00,716 Speaker 1: spent as a college professor, and I wouldn't have known 309 00:20:01,156 --> 00:20:04,796 Speaker 1: what to do about myself. Are like, I wouldn't have 310 00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:09,796 Speaker 1: known how to identify myself in the world without that 311 00:20:09,916 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 1: job that I had become so attached to. I was 312 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 1: a college professor, and when things were going well, that 313 00:20:17,436 --> 00:20:20,796 Speaker 1: was a very satisfying identity to have. And so when 314 00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:25,076 Speaker 1: the job kind of started to bill sour for me, 315 00:20:25,876 --> 00:20:30,836 Speaker 1: that led to great questioning of who I am and 316 00:20:31,316 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: what my whole purpose as a person was, what my 317 00:20:35,036 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 1: identity was. When we get back from the break, will 318 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:40,196 Speaker 1: learn that Jonathan didn't always have a job that caused 319 00:20:40,196 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: a crisis of identity or a purpose. Before he became 320 00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 1: a professor, he enjoyed a workplace that was so remarkable 321 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:50,756 Speaker 1: for its non burnout vibes that there's an entire documentary 322 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 1: about it. We'll hear more about this workplace and what 323 00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:56,396 Speaker 1: it can teach us about reducing burnout when the Happiness 324 00:20:56,476 --> 00:21:11,076 Speaker 1: Lab returns in a moment. Long before Jonathan Molessing burned 325 00:21:11,076 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 1: out as a tenured professor, he was an employee in 326 00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:16,636 Speaker 1: a very different kind of job, one that brought him 327 00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 1: more inner peace and a brief brush with fame. My 328 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:25,956 Speaker 1: film debut was in a small documentary called The Parking 329 00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:29,756 Speaker 1: Lot Movie. It is, as the title indicates, about a 330 00:21:29,796 --> 00:21:33,076 Speaker 1: parking lot where I was an attendant after I finished 331 00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:36,436 Speaker 1: graduate school. I'm in it for just a few seconds, 332 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 1: just talking about the weird obsessions that as a parking 333 00:21:41,316 --> 00:21:44,876 Speaker 1: lot attendant you can have with license. Please, if you 334 00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 1: haven't seen the film and hot tip, you totally should, 335 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:51,476 Speaker 1: because it's incredibly charming. The premise is pretty simple. The 336 00:21:51,596 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 1: movie follows a group of parking lot attendants, including young Jonathan, 337 00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:57,436 Speaker 1: as they go about their normal day to day tasks, 338 00:21:58,076 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: seemingly having an amazing time. In between dealing with customers, 339 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 1: they read books, they make up goofy games like playing 340 00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:08,156 Speaker 1: ringtoss with traffic cones, and they spend a lot of 341 00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 1: time kicking up their heels and pondering the human condition. 342 00:22:11,716 --> 00:22:14,596 Speaker 1: In other words, pretty much the opposite of burned out. 343 00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:17,436 Speaker 1: It was the best job I'd had to that point. 344 00:22:17,996 --> 00:22:20,956 Speaker 1: The pay was better than I had expected it would be. 345 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:24,956 Speaker 1: I had great co workers, I had a really wonderful boss, 346 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:31,556 Speaker 1: and I think most significantly, the job did not occupy 347 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:37,036 Speaker 1: my entire being. It was not all of who I was, 348 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 1: and it didn't follow me home at the end of 349 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:44,316 Speaker 1: a shift that wasn't exhausted because the job didn't demand 350 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:48,316 Speaker 1: that I put my entire being into it. No one 351 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:52,436 Speaker 1: looks at their newborn child and things, boy, I hope 352 00:22:52,516 --> 00:22:54,676 Speaker 1: that my son or daughter grows up to be a 353 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 1: parking lot attendant. No one dream that's no one's dream job, 354 00:22:58,236 --> 00:23:00,916 Speaker 1: and the fact that it's no one's dream job actually 355 00:23:00,956 --> 00:23:04,636 Speaker 1: helps make it a really good job, at least that 356 00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:08,476 Speaker 1: particular lot. Because you don't have these wild expectations about it. 357 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 1: You don't expect to be totally fulfilled, you know, having 358 00:23:11,396 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 1: seen the movie and having seen you know, the kind 359 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:16,436 Speaker 1: of chill vibe of all the attendance and sort of 360 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:18,956 Speaker 1: the wonderful message of work that comes from that movie. 361 00:23:19,636 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: Some ways maybe ironic that you know you are now 362 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,636 Speaker 1: the poster child for burnout and then the fact that 363 00:23:25,676 --> 00:23:28,236 Speaker 1: you went through this, and so what's that irony? Like, 364 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:31,716 Speaker 1: I guess what happened. I think that I didn't take 365 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:36,156 Speaker 1: the lesson of the parking lot seriously enough. I think 366 00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:40,116 Speaker 1: that I probably just saw it as this break in 367 00:23:40,156 --> 00:23:43,596 Speaker 1: my academic career, you know, this brief moment where I'm 368 00:23:43,716 --> 00:23:48,276 Speaker 1: outside of my whole value system that I had been 369 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 1: cultivating in graduate school. And then when I left the 370 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:54,316 Speaker 1: parking lot, I just picked up on that value system. 371 00:23:54,756 --> 00:23:57,196 Speaker 1: And I shouldn't have done that. I should have taken 372 00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 1: more of the lesson of the parking Lot with me 373 00:23:59,556 --> 00:24:02,876 Speaker 1: to my academic job, and I wish I had. And 374 00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 1: you've argued that this job kind of gives us some 375 00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 1: insight about the kinds of things that really can help 376 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:11,116 Speaker 1: us develop better work. Culture is elsewhere too, and so 377 00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:13,796 Speaker 1: talk about this idea of finding different ways to get 378 00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 1: dignity in your life and dignities that come from outside 379 00:24:16,396 --> 00:24:20,356 Speaker 1: of work. One of our noble lives in the United 380 00:24:20,356 --> 00:24:24,676 Speaker 1: States culture is that you only count, you only have 381 00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:30,036 Speaker 1: dignity if you have paid employment, and if you don't, 382 00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:32,676 Speaker 1: if you've been laid off, or if you have a 383 00:24:32,716 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 1: disability that keeps you from working, or you're caring for 384 00:24:36,996 --> 00:24:40,556 Speaker 1: children full time, then you know you're sort of looked 385 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 1: at with a little bit of suspicion. Why aren't you working, 386 00:24:43,756 --> 00:24:47,796 Speaker 1: Why aren't you contributing like everyone else? And getting rid 387 00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:52,436 Speaker 1: of that noble line is the first step towards building 388 00:24:52,556 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: a better culture where work plays more of a supporting 389 00:24:56,836 --> 00:25:00,236 Speaker 1: role in our lives, and then you know, we can 390 00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 1: have greater sense of flourishing beyond our jobs. What I 391 00:25:04,276 --> 00:25:07,676 Speaker 1: think we need to replace that noble lie with is 392 00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:12,796 Speaker 1: the idea that you everyone whoever we meet has dignity 393 00:25:12,836 --> 00:25:16,196 Speaker 1: before they ever work, and even if they never work. 394 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:19,236 Speaker 1: Like let's think about that newborn who may or may 395 00:25:19,276 --> 00:25:21,956 Speaker 1: not grow up to be a parking lot attendant. No 396 00:25:21,996 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: one thinks that they're newborn is lacking dignity. We rightly 397 00:25:27,676 --> 00:25:32,796 Speaker 1: cherish young children. We see them as having incredible value. Well, 398 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:34,836 Speaker 1: that child is going to grow up and become an 399 00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 1: adult and they didn't lose that value along the way. 400 00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:43,876 Speaker 1: And the question is if everyone in society can recognize 401 00:25:43,956 --> 00:25:47,796 Speaker 1: that dignity regardless of if the person is working or not. 402 00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:51,156 Speaker 1: And so, what are some structural changes you think might 403 00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:53,876 Speaker 1: help us get that notion of dignity back. You talk 404 00:25:53,916 --> 00:25:55,356 Speaker 1: about a lot of these in your book, but I'm 405 00:25:55,356 --> 00:25:57,436 Speaker 1: wondering if you have, you know, your top couple structural 406 00:25:57,516 --> 00:25:59,956 Speaker 1: changes that you'd love to see kind of help producer 407 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:02,596 Speaker 1: and out work. Well, the first thing is, as I guess, 408 00:26:02,636 --> 00:26:06,996 Speaker 1: like that intellectual shift, beginning to see that each one 409 00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 1: of us has dignity, and then we can build the 410 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:16,116 Speaker 1: structures that will honor and recognize that dignity. So when 411 00:26:16,156 --> 00:26:21,436 Speaker 1: it comes to work, for example, seeing that because everyone 412 00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:25,436 Speaker 1: before they even go to work already has dignity, then well, 413 00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:30,356 Speaker 1: as a dignified person, they deserve a living wage regardless 414 00:26:30,596 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 1: of the kind of work they do. They also deserve 415 00:26:34,796 --> 00:26:38,956 Speaker 1: reasonable hours in a predictable schedule. I'm also an advocate 416 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:44,516 Speaker 1: for a certain measure of basic income again to recognize 417 00:26:44,756 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: that as a living human being, you deserve some ability 418 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 1: to support yourself whether you work or not. So those 419 00:26:53,476 --> 00:26:55,836 Speaker 1: are kind of on the policy level ways that I 420 00:26:55,876 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: think we can better honor the dignity that we all 421 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:02,516 Speaker 1: have regardless of our work steps. You know, this whole 422 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:05,436 Speaker 1: mini season is really about how we can productively use 423 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:08,036 Speaker 1: a lot of the negative experiences we have, and of 424 00:27:08,036 --> 00:27:10,116 Speaker 1: course I put burnout and one of these categories. You know, 425 00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:12,276 Speaker 1: it seems like you've learned so much from this experience, 426 00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:14,796 Speaker 1: but it seems like the solution here isn't necessarily to 427 00:27:14,876 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 1: do something different yourself. It's really to develop a new 428 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 1: mindset or to make some you know, pretty radical individual 429 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 1: changes here. So does that kind of fit with your 430 00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:27,116 Speaker 1: interpretation of burnout and what you've learned from it? Yeah, 431 00:27:27,156 --> 00:27:30,036 Speaker 1: I mean it's burnout is not the kind of thing 432 00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 1: that I think we should make peace with. Though I 433 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 1: think that getting over burnout as individuals and as a 434 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:42,716 Speaker 1: culture will require us to make peace with our finitude. 435 00:27:43,316 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 1: I recently read this wonderful book by Oliver Berkman called 436 00:27:47,036 --> 00:27:50,996 Speaker 1: four Thousand Weeks Time Management from Mortals, and the message 437 00:27:50,996 --> 00:27:56,316 Speaker 1: there is recognize your finitude. You can't you literally cannot 438 00:27:56,396 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: do everything in the time that you have. And I 439 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 1: think that one thing that drives burnout culture is a 440 00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 1: belief in our infinitude is belief that we can do more, 441 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 1: that this productivity hack will allow us to do more, 442 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 1: or learning to say no can allow us to concentrate 443 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 1: on the work that is more meaningful to us, Or 444 00:28:21,796 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 1: if we rearrange our meal prep then we'll be able 445 00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:30,396 Speaker 1: to get more done or something. And Berkmann's message is 446 00:28:30,516 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 1: that we simply will never be able to do it all. 447 00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:36,076 Speaker 1: We won't even be able to do a fraction of 448 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:39,516 Speaker 1: the things that we might like to do in our lives. 449 00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:44,476 Speaker 1: And so I think that recognizing that affinity, recognizing that 450 00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:48,596 Speaker 1: we will die is a great discipline to help us 451 00:28:49,196 --> 00:28:56,276 Speaker 1: overcome burnout. Culture lives are limited, and that is something 452 00:28:56,276 --> 00:28:58,716 Speaker 1: to carry with you, and so that's trying to us. 453 00:28:58,716 --> 00:29:00,156 Speaker 1: Do you think we can use kind of at the 454 00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:02,836 Speaker 1: individual level, because I agree those policy changes are going 455 00:29:02,876 --> 00:29:05,036 Speaker 1: to be important, But many of the folks listening to 456 00:29:05,076 --> 00:29:08,436 Speaker 1: this might be experiencing burnout like right now, right, and 457 00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:11,316 Speaker 1: so what are changes that they can make locally to 458 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: improve the situation. That's pretty tough because burnout, the causes 459 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:19,996 Speaker 1: of burnout are not just in you. The causes of 460 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:23,036 Speaker 1: burnout are in our culture, which is where we get 461 00:29:23,076 --> 00:29:25,996 Speaker 1: our ideals for work, and we grow up with those 462 00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:29,196 Speaker 1: from an early age. The other side of the causes 463 00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:34,476 Speaker 1: is in our work environment, in our workplaces. So unless 464 00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 1: you are a sole proprietor, you don't have total control 465 00:29:39,476 --> 00:29:43,036 Speaker 1: over your working conditions. Even if you are a sole proprietor, 466 00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:46,156 Speaker 1: you may not have total control over your working conditions. 467 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:51,316 Speaker 1: But in order to prevent and heal and get over burnout, 468 00:29:51,636 --> 00:29:55,596 Speaker 1: the changes have to be more than just individual, because 469 00:29:55,636 --> 00:29:58,596 Speaker 1: the causes are more than just individual. You know, think 470 00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: about one common piece of advice that is given to 471 00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:05,756 Speaker 1: people who might be suffering burnout as well, learned to 472 00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:10,116 Speaker 1: say no. That was certainly something that I heard in academia. 473 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:14,796 Speaker 1: Me learning to say no to other people's demands doesn't 474 00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:18,676 Speaker 1: reduce the number of demands in the world. It just 475 00:30:18,956 --> 00:30:23,156 Speaker 1: shifts those that burden onto the next person over. So 476 00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 1: if we're going to really deal with burnout, it's going 477 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:31,836 Speaker 1: to take a recognition not just of our common dignity, 478 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:36,116 Speaker 1: but also of solidarity, recognizing that my burnout and also 479 00:30:36,196 --> 00:30:40,476 Speaker 1: my flourishing are linked to burnout and your flourishing, and 480 00:30:40,516 --> 00:30:44,196 Speaker 1: we're not going to unfortunately, you know that we're not 481 00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:48,996 Speaker 1: going to get rid of burnout. Without more collective action, 482 00:30:51,036 --> 00:30:55,036 Speaker 1: our cultures expectations around work can be pretty merciless, and 483 00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:58,196 Speaker 1: changing these expectations is not something that any one person 484 00:30:58,276 --> 00:31:00,916 Speaker 1: can do alone, but each and every one of us 485 00:31:00,956 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: can start to make a difference in the local work 486 00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:05,636 Speaker 1: cultures we take part in. I'm going to try to 487 00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 1: notice the things I do that unintentionally perpetuate burnout culture 488 00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,756 Speaker 1: so that I can try to break the cycle. For example, 489 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 1: I bet my students and colleagues would feel better about 490 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:18,036 Speaker 1: keeping more sane work hours if they saw me doing 491 00:31:18,076 --> 00:31:20,756 Speaker 1: that too. I'm also going to keep an eye out 492 00:31:20,756 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 1: for touchstones like the Parking Lot movie that I can 493 00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:25,956 Speaker 1: return to when my identity and sense of purpose are 494 00:31:25,956 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: getting a little too defined by my career. I'll use 495 00:31:29,116 --> 00:31:31,716 Speaker 1: them as a needed reminder that another way of relating 496 00:31:31,716 --> 00:31:34,316 Speaker 1: to work is possible, and that we can all make 497 00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 1: positive changes to make our work life balance a little 498 00:31:37,316 --> 00:31:42,236 Speaker 1: bit healthier. Thank you so much for joining me for 499 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:45,556 Speaker 1: this season of the Happiness Lab. Nobody likes sitting with 500 00:31:45,636 --> 00:31:49,156 Speaker 1: uncomfortable emotions, and even with all the new strategies we've 501 00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:52,036 Speaker 1: learned to support ourselves, it's still going to take time 502 00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: and practice to put these into effect, so be patient 503 00:31:55,436 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 1: and kind with yourself along the way. You and your 504 00:31:58,076 --> 00:32:00,676 Speaker 1: well being are worth it. The team and I are 505 00:32:00,716 --> 00:32:02,756 Speaker 1: already hard at work on the next full season of 506 00:32:02,756 --> 00:32:05,956 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab, as well as some exciting bonus episodes 507 00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:08,716 Speaker 1: along the way, so I hope you'll stay tuned. In 508 00:32:08,756 --> 00:32:10,876 Speaker 1: the mean time, let us know how you like this season. 509 00:32:11,756 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 1: Find me on social media and let me know how 510 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:16,516 Speaker 1: you're using the strategies you've learned in your day to 511 00:32:16,596 --> 00:32:19,356 Speaker 1: day life. We always love to hear your insights too. 512 00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:29,876 Speaker 1: Until next time, stay safe and stay happy. If you 513 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:33,396 Speaker 1: like this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing 514 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:37,436 Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus. As a special gift to Pushkin Plus subscribers, 515 00:32:37,676 --> 00:32:40,596 Speaker 1: I'll be sharing a series of six guided meditations to 516 00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:43,316 Speaker 1: help you practice the lessons we've learned from our experts. 517 00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:46,436 Speaker 1: To check them out, look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 518 00:32:46,476 --> 00:32:58,956 Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions. The Happiness Lab is co written and produced 519 00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:03,036 Speaker 1: by Ryan Dilley, Emily Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our 520 00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 1: original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, 521 00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:11,756 Speaker 1: and mastering by Evan Viola. Special thanks to Mialabelle Heather Faine, 522 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:16,636 Speaker 1: John Schnars, Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Brandt Haines, Maggie Taylor, 523 00:33:16,796 --> 00:33:21,676 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, 524 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:24,996 Speaker 1: Ben Davis. That Happiness Lab is brought to you by 525 00:33:24,996 --> 00:33:28,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and me, Doctor Laurie Santos. To find more 526 00:33:28,956 --> 00:33:33,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 527 00:33:33,076 --> 00:33:35,596 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcasts,