Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky listener Discretion is Advised. Founded
Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty five, Saint Augustine is the oldest continuously
Speaker 1: occupied city in America. It's home to the Fountain of
Speaker 1: Youth at least sort of, and some of the most
Speaker 1: beautiful Spanish Revival architecture in the country. But there's a
Speaker 1: dark side to all of that history. Corruption ran rampant
Speaker 1: in Saint Augustine when some people would be unjustly imprisoned
Speaker 1: on flimsy, sometimes unwarranted charges. The conditions of the Saint
Speaker 1: John County Jail were so inhumane that inmates were referred
Speaker 1: to as the product. So few people survived the harsh
Speaker 1: imprisonment that any sentence there was considered a life sentence. Today,
Speaker 1: the Saint Augustine Old City Jail is one of the
Speaker 1: city's biggest tourist attractions, with tours led by costumed re enactors.
Speaker 1: They walk the old jail's corridors, recreating what life was
Speaker 1: like there for inmates. What some people don't realize is
Speaker 1: that many of the inmates never left. I'm Amy Bruney,
Speaker 1: and this is haunted road. A beachfront city on Florida's
Speaker 1: Atlantic coast, Saint Augustine brings in millions of tourists annually
Speaker 1: to take advantage of the white sand beaches and the
Speaker 1: unique historic attractions like the Saint Augustine Lighthouse. Regular listeners
Speaker 1: might remember the shadowy figures in disembodied Children's Laughter of
Speaker 1: that remarkably haunted place. The city is also home to
Speaker 1: what some claim is the real Fountain of youths at
Speaker 1: the Fountain of Youth Archaeological Park. It was rumored to
Speaker 1: have been discovered by Ponce Delion and his explorations of
Speaker 1: Florida's coast in fifteen thirteen, one hundred and fifty years ago.
Speaker 1: While the historic architecture Saint Augustine might have looked similar,
Speaker 1: the city wasn't a widely known tourist destination like it
Speaker 1: is today. But one man, Henry Flagler, was about to
Speaker 1: find the ancient city as it's nicknamed and changed Saint
Speaker 1: Augustine forever. Flagler co founded Standard Oil with John D.
Speaker 1: Rockefeller in eighteen sixty three and quickly found himself enormously wealthy,
Speaker 1: according to the Flagler Museum, when he died in nineteen thirteen,
Speaker 1: his estate was worth one hundred million dollars or about
Speaker 1: twelve point five billion in today's money. In eighteen seventy eight,
Speaker 1: his wife, Mary Flagler, was in failing house suffering from tuberculosis.
Speaker 1: Doctors ordered them to leave New York City winter and
Speaker 1: head to warmer climes to help Mary's recovery. The couple
Speaker 1: headed to Jacksonville, Florida, but Mary did not survive the trip.
Speaker 1: Soon afterward, Flagler remarried and discovered Saint Augustine, about forty
Speaker 1: miles away, according to Oldtown Trolley tours. He found the
Speaker 1: area charming and brimming with possibilities, but sorely lacking in accommodations.
Speaker 1: Flagler began to invest in real estate, including constructing a
Speaker 1: luxury hotel that would be a beacon to wealthy travelers.
Speaker 1: Now part of Flagler College, the Poncedalion Hotel was constructed
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty eight. It was designed to attract rich
Speaker 1: and famous guests looking for a warm weather escape. The
Speaker 1: five hundred forty room hotel was designed in the Spanish
Speaker 1: Revival by the same architectural firm that shortly afterwards would
Speaker 1: design the New York Public Library with the help of
Speaker 1: Flagler's friend Thomas Edison. The hotel was one of the
Speaker 1: first in America to be built hardwired for electricity. Lewis
Speaker 1: Comfort Tiffany and his company Tiffany Company handled the interior design.
Speaker 1: Murals inside were painted by George Maynard, who later painted
Speaker 1: murals inside the Library of Congress. Everything was perfect except
Speaker 1: one thing. Directly across the street from the Poncedallyon Hotel
Speaker 1: was the Saint John County Jail, and it simply would
Speaker 1: not do to have that be the most prominent thing
Speaker 1: Flagler's well healed clientel would see from his marquee establishment.
Speaker 1: But baires, as you might guess, have an easy way
Speaker 1: of solving problems. Flagler got the prison moved with one
Speaker 1: flex of his checkbook. He donated ten thousand dollars to
Speaker 1: the Saint John County Commissioners to build a new jail
Speaker 1: far out of sight of his hotel. According to Visit
Speaker 1: Saint Augustine, Flagler wanted to ensure a safe and pleasant
Speaker 1: environment for his patrons by creating a secure fortress to
Speaker 1: house criminals. It was important to Flagler that the exterior
Speaker 1: appearance of this fortress wouldn't disrupt the majestic atmosphere of
Speaker 1: the ancient city. To accomplish this, it was designed with
Speaker 1: a Romanesque Revival style that gave it the distinct appearance
Speaker 1: of a Victorian house. Without interior comfort and charm, it
Speaker 1: was almost unrecognizable as a jail apart from the barred windows.
Speaker 1: The architects PJ. Poly Jail Company would go on to
Speaker 1: design Alcatraz shortly after. The Saint John County Jail was
Speaker 1: designed to hold seventy two male and twelve female inmates.
Speaker 1: The two story prison had a northern wing which housed
Speaker 1: the general population, a maximum security area, a women's area
Speaker 1: in na in the kitchen. The southern wing had an
Speaker 1: office for the sheriff and living quarters for his family.
Speaker 1: In fact, the building was so appealing that people would
Speaker 1: go there assuming it was a hotel and asking for
Speaker 1: a room. It was a nice looking jail, but what
Speaker 1: was going on inside was horrific. Dana Saint Clair, director
Speaker 1: of the Saint Augustine four hundred and fiftieth Commission, told
Speaker 1: the Saint Augustine Record. According to Anne Coleby, author of
Speaker 1: Wicked Saint Augustine, when Pedro Menendez de Aviles founded Saint
Speaker 1: Augustine in fifteen sixty five. His New World survival kit
Speaker 1: included gambling, liquor, and ladies for hire. For the next
Speaker 1: four hundred years, these three industries were vital in keeping
Speaker 1: the city financially afloat. The illicit activities, sometimes illegal and
Speaker 1: sometimes just thought of as socially unacceptable, were carried out
Speaker 1: right under the noses of local law enforcement and politicians.
Speaker 1: After all, those people were regular participants. They patronized the
Speaker 1: illegal gambling parlors and drank at the speakeasies, even though
Speaker 1: you know probabit. As Colby told the Saint Augustine Record,
Speaker 1: there were a number of arrests, but very few convictions
Speaker 1: for either prostitution or running a brothel. Because all of
Speaker 1: the law enforcement, all the judges, most of the city
Speaker 1: council members, they were all customers. That corruption went a
Speaker 1: lot further all the way through how the prison was run.
Speaker 1: Some of the prison's population, to be sure, deserved to
Speaker 1: be there. Sim Jackson was hanged in nineteen oh eight
Speaker 1: for murdering his wife with a straight razor. Charlie Powell
Speaker 1: was hanged in nineteen ten for killing a man for
Speaker 1: spreading rumors about his wife, but some definitely did not
Speaker 1: deserve to be incarcerated. Saint Clair added, people were rounded
Speaker 1: up on trumped up charges like loitering and intoxication, and
Speaker 1: in those days, when you were rounded up, it was
Speaker 1: pretty much a death sentence. Gina Kish, history teller for
Speaker 1: the Old Jail, told Saint Augustine Register that some of
Speaker 1: the women imprisoned had committed no crime at all. They
Speaker 1: would drag women of low reputation down here, so if
Speaker 1: you didn't have a good family name or a husband,
Speaker 1: you could be thrown in jail, she said. Inside its walls,
Speaker 1: conditions were unliving. Overcrowded cells allowed disease to run rampant,
Speaker 1: and high tensions led to vicious violence between prisoners as
Speaker 1: ghosts and gravestones. Described by today's standards, these cells would
Speaker 1: be considered unlivable for humans. No blankets or pillows were provided,
Speaker 1: and the mattresses stuffed with Spanish moss were often infested
Speaker 1: with red bugs. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the site continues, the Old
Speaker 1: jail had no bathing facilities or sanitation for human waste,
Speaker 1: which meant the inmates were not able to bathe, and
Speaker 1: there was a stench that could not be eliminated if
Speaker 1: the men's conditions were bad, the women's conditions were worse.
Speaker 1: There were six women to a cell that was only
Speaker 1: designed to hold four, and none of the women's cells
Speaker 1: had electricity or running water. The only bathroom facilities the
Speaker 1: women had access to were buckets. The men's cells got
Speaker 1: plumbing in nineteen fourteen, but the women never did. As
Speaker 1: Ghosts and Gravestones described, Maximum Security housed the most dangerous
Speaker 1: prisoners held at the jail and included a death row
Speaker 1: cell for those condemned to die. The Maximum Security cells,
Speaker 1: located in the back of the building, were equipped with stockades,
Speaker 1: a torture cage, and a clear view of the execution area.
Speaker 1: The solitary confinement cell had no bed at all. Every
Speaker 1: inmate was required to work. Men released out to local
Speaker 1: farms to work in the fields in a money making
Speaker 1: scheme to enrich the county and worked in terrible conditions.
Speaker 1: They were transported to the farms and cages, working in
Speaker 1: chain gangs, their ankles shackled together the entire time. As
Speaker 1: Kish described, they weren't working with the proper equipment and
Speaker 1: sometimes didn't even have shoes. The men would often return
Speaker 1: from the fields bleeding from wounds, inflicted by their manacles.
Speaker 1: It was more extreme than harsh. Saint Clair said. Those
Speaker 1: who were too infirmed to endure hard labor, even by
Speaker 1: the harshest standard, were permitted to work in the prison garden.
Speaker 1: Women were required to cook and clean for the male
Speaker 1: prisoners and for the sheriff's family. They were like prison maids.
Speaker 1: Kish said it was a dark, dirty place. On average,
Speaker 1: prisoners only stayed alive about two years in these conditions.
Speaker 1: The only time a doctor came was on hanging days.
Speaker 1: Kish said the death rate was so notorious and an
Speaker 1: unrecorded number of people have died here. Inmates would succumb
Speaker 1: to illness or malnutrition, be killed by violent means, or
Speaker 1: be executed for their crimes. You might guess that not
Speaker 1: all of them deserve that punishment, and you would be right.
Speaker 1: One man in particular was executed, although he was essentially
Speaker 1: proven innocent. Jim Kirby and Robert Lee were accused of murder,
Speaker 1: and both were convicted and hanged in nineteen oh one.
Speaker 1: Even though Kirby was adamant that Lee had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with the crime, he was not exonerated. According to
Speaker 1: an article from the Saint Augustine Record on the day
Speaker 1: of the hanging, Lee said, they are hanging an innocent man,
Speaker 1: as God is my judge, and knowing that I must
Speaker 1: face him innocent or guilty in a few minutes, I
Speaker 1: am innocent. In the same article, Kirby said, I have
Speaker 1: tried to save Lee but failed. But you can state
Speaker 1: that he knew nothing of the affair until it was over.
Speaker 1: A total of eight men were hanged for their crimes
Speaker 1: in the prison. Such huge crowds would gather for hangings
Speaker 1: that people would climb telephone poles to get a better view.
Speaker 1: The jail closed in nineteen fifty three after sixty two
Speaker 1: years of mistreating prisoners, throughout which it was given multiple
Speaker 1: citations for its conditions. Today, it's one of the most
Speaker 1: popular tourist attractions in the city and one of the
Speaker 1: most haunted places in America. Perimal investigators travel from thousands
Speaker 1: of miles away to take ghost tours of the jail
Speaker 1: and tried to communicate with spirits of the inmates. As
Speaker 1: Kish told the Saint Augustine Register staff and visitors have
Speaker 1: experienced paranormal activity in the jail. Various people have seen
Speaker 1: various things throughout the day. She said. People report being
Speaker 1: touched and grabbed to the point where a person will
Speaker 1: leave bruised. They also report smelling sewage smells or sickly
Speaker 1: sweet aromas, neither of which have been present for more
Speaker 1: than seventy years. A common paranormal sighting is the crawler,
Speaker 1: a shadow figure that crawls on the floor in the
Speaker 1: cell block. Visitors commonly report being touched by something cold
Speaker 1: or feeling as though something is tugging at their hair.
Speaker 1: Another frequent occurrence is hearing men in chains. According to
Speaker 1: Ghosts and Gravestones, one of the many complaints to those
Speaker 1: living close to the Old Jail is the frequent sounds
Speaker 1: of footsteps walking inside. Loud, plunky noises indicate that these
Speaker 1: footsteps belong to the disembodied souls of the criminals that
Speaker 1: once lived and died there. Guests touring the facility have
Speaker 1: also reported this phenomenon. People also report hearing phantom dogs barking.
Speaker 1: Maybe most haunting are the sounds of lingering suffering, as
Speaker 1: Ghosts and Gravestones says, there are many reports of whaling
Speaker 1: moaning sounds coming from the maximum security and solitary confinement areas,
Speaker 1: and some visitors have even reported hearing the voice of
Speaker 1: a little girl coming from the sheriff's quarters. Others have
Speaker 1: heard someone whistling at them, and several guests have reported
Speaker 1: hearing a dastardly laugh in one of the women's cells.
Speaker 1: Another spot that's reported to be particularly haunted, according to
Speaker 1: Old City Ghosts, is a solitary cell. Folks are challenged
Speaker 1: to stay in the cell and sit alone in the
Speaker 1: far left corner. Many have claimed to have seen in
Speaker 1: a shadowy figure lurk toward them, a sort of shade
Speaker 1: that scurries and tries to tear at them. Everyone who
Speaker 1: has taken the test has attested to the experience and
Speaker 1: the fuse that somehow left disappointed, later claimed to have
Speaker 1: uncovered scratch marks on their belly the very next day.
Speaker 1: While on that note, up next, we'll be talking with
Speaker 1: Stephen Mitchell. Stephen was the director and manager of the
Speaker 1: Old Saint Augustine Jail for many, many years, and you
Speaker 1: may recognize him from our episode of Kindred Spirits filmed there,
Speaker 1: as well as one of the first ever episodes of
Speaker 1: Ghost Hunters many moons ago. He has got some stories
Speaker 1: to tell and a lot of paranormal history to share,
Speaker 1: so that is coming up after the break. I am
Speaker 1: now joined by Stephen Mitchell. And you might be familiar
Speaker 1: with Stephen if you watched our episode at the Old
Speaker 1: City Jail of Kindred Spirits, and he was also the
Speaker 1: client for the episode of ghost Hunters that happened there
Speaker 1: so so long ago. So welcome Stephen, I am Now
Speaker 1: what was now? I know you've moved on to a
Speaker 1: different position within the same company and so you're not
Speaker 1: at the jail any longer, but you spent many many
Speaker 1: years there. What was your capacity at the jail.
Speaker 2: The time that a lot of this was happening. I was.
Speaker 2: I was running our daytime museum operations and overseeing our
Speaker 2: ghosts and gravestones operations at night, so I got all
Speaker 2: sorts of exposure to all of the varied energies that
Speaker 2: take place in their day and night.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's something people always ask and like,
Speaker 1: you know, do hauntings only happen at night? Why do
Speaker 1: you investigate at night? And the jail's kind of a
Speaker 1: great example of that, just because you know, we we
Speaker 1: tend to investigate at night only because locations are a
Speaker 1: lot quieter, and especially like in a high traffic area
Speaker 1: like where the jail is there's less cars outside, there's
Speaker 1: clearly less people. Sometimes light anomalies are more apparent in
Speaker 1: the dark. But the jail is unique because people do
Speaker 1: have experiences day or night. And I kind of sometimes
Speaker 1: wonder if people might be having experiences when they're touring
Speaker 1: during the day and not even realize it.
Speaker 2: You know, I'll be honest, I think that. I think
Speaker 2: that a lot of people realize it, But a lot
Speaker 2: of people come to that that moment, that threshold of
Speaker 2: questioning themselves, you know, as my imagination getting away from me,
Speaker 2: did I really see that? Or am I crazy? And
Speaker 2: there The moment that really has always surprised me is
Speaker 2: when it's easier for somebody to convince themselves that they
Speaker 2: had a momentary lapse of sanity, that that it's easier
Speaker 2: to believe that, oh no, it's okay, I'm insane, I'm insane,
Speaker 2: that couldn't have actually had and and they they're able
Speaker 2: to shrug it off that way and walk away. It's
Speaker 2: easier for them to confront that than to think for
Speaker 2: a moment that something out of the ordinary, something paranormal,
Speaker 2: just interacted with them in the same space.
Speaker 1: Isn't that so funny? And then I be people on
Speaker 1: the opposite end of the spectrum who are probably having
Speaker 1: some something medical going on, but insists that it's paranormal.
Speaker 2: So the curtain move, The curtain moved, conditioning kicked. No,
Speaker 2: it's a ghost.
Speaker 1: Yes, Now, when did you know the jail was haunted?
Speaker 1: When did you just go, Okay, there is something going
Speaker 1: on here?
Speaker 2: Oh boy, what I have to say. I don't know
Speaker 2: that there's a singular difining moment. I know that I
Speaker 2: was already accepting of the idea at the time that
Speaker 2: I was working at the jail, and my first experience
Speaker 2: probably was more subtle. My first interaction with the energy
Speaker 2: was was probably something that that I shrugged off or
Speaker 2: or dismissed as a momentary. Uh. I don't know what
Speaker 2: that was, but but I'm not I'm not bothered by it.
Speaker 2: The first the first time that that I think something
Speaker 2: happened that I I couldn't explain through any other means.
Speaker 2: Was was the brief glimpse of a full on apparition
Speaker 2: a person that was there that shouldn't have been there,
Speaker 2: that that was suddenly not there in in a millisecond,
Speaker 2: and and just just that brief little moment in time.
Speaker 2: I I knew that I wasn't alone in.
Speaker 1: The building, right, And so yeah, when you see something
Speaker 1: like that and you're supposedly alone, uh, and you actually
Speaker 1: see it kind of manifest and then disappear like that
Speaker 1: obviously catches you off guard. But I know you've had
Speaker 1: some pretty major experiences, and especially that one experience you
Speaker 1: had on the staircase, which I think was kind of
Speaker 1: a one off happening. But can you describe what happened
Speaker 1: in that moment?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that was definitely a pretty intense moment,
Speaker 2: coming up the staircase, heading up to the second floor
Speaker 2: and feeling feeling something stopped me, feeling a hand right
Speaker 2: pressed up against my chest, feeling it pushed me back,
Speaker 2: and realizing that I've got to move my feet because
Speaker 2: something's going to move me and if I if I
Speaker 2: don't back down, I and I got pushed right down
Speaker 2: those stairs. That was kind of one of those moments
Speaker 2: that I h I really had questioned why am I
Speaker 2: still here?
Speaker 1: I get why am I still working here? But it
Speaker 1: also doesn't sound like that was a regular cur You know,
Speaker 1: what were you feeling in that moment? Was there like
Speaker 1: a different vibe than usual, like, why do you think
Speaker 1: that happened? I know it was a very long time ago,
Speaker 1: but why do you think that happened on that day?
Speaker 2: I can't explain why that happened anymore that, but what
Speaker 2: I can say is the number of thoughts that went
Speaker 2: through my rational mind is as I tried to figure
Speaker 2: out what, how, why, and realizing this, yes, this is
Speaker 2: the first time and maybe the only time anything like
Speaker 2: that would ever happen in that building to a person.
Speaker 2: Not the first time it's happened. You know, I'd been
Speaker 2: in there with with a school group. Just see a
Speaker 2: cell door heavier than all of us put together, just
Speaker 2: suddenly move itself shut. I've been in there and I've
Speaker 2: seen the ball and chain just start swinging against the hook.
Speaker 2: I've been in there, I've seen things move. I'd seen
Speaker 2: things physically interacted with with something that couldn't be seen
Speaker 2: by the naked eye. And this time I was the door,
Speaker 2: I was the ball and chain, I was I was
Speaker 2: the thing that it interacted with.
Speaker 1: Well, thankfully that wasn't a regular occurrence. You know, that's
Speaker 1: one of those things where people ask me about physical
Speaker 1: like touching a lot, like you know, if something pushes
Speaker 1: you or shoves you or you know. Now, if that
Speaker 1: happens all the time, that's one thing what I do
Speaker 1: theorize that sometimes spirits don't necessarily know their own strength
Speaker 1: sometimes or you know, as we say, they kind of
Speaker 1: overshoot the basket, like they're trying to get your attention,
Speaker 1: and it results in something a little more physical than
Speaker 1: maybe they intended. And so that could go a couple
Speaker 1: of ways. They could go, oh, no, look what I
Speaker 1: just almost did and it never happens again. Or if
Speaker 1: you have, you know, something that's a little more malicious,
Speaker 1: it could be like, oh, look what I could do.
Speaker 1: You know. So it doesn't sound like it was the
Speaker 1: latter in your case, thankfully.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know. I don't
Speaker 2: know how many energies, how many independent energies, how many
Speaker 2: conscious energies or subconscious energies, whether they be ripple effects, whatever,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I've not gotten an opportunity to sit
Speaker 2: down with all of them and have rational conversations.
Speaker 1: That would make my job a lot easier if we could. No, So,
Speaker 1: now you're obviously not the only one having experiences there,
Speaker 1: and so I've talked to you about this before, but
Speaker 1: I always I always find it interesting that when you
Speaker 1: go to that jail, it is such a tourist attraction
Speaker 1: and it is like, I don't want to say cheesy,
Speaker 1: but it is kind of like one of those old
Speaker 1: school kind of roadside attractions. Like you go and there's
Speaker 1: you know, you guys are serving ice cream. You know.
Speaker 1: Our personal favorite is the giant upside down alligator. You
Speaker 1: can take a picture next to, you know, and and
Speaker 1: it's just got this really kind of you know, fun vibe.
Speaker 1: And then you go inside and you hear these horrific
Speaker 1: stories of what inmates endured and and and what they
Speaker 1: you know, the conditions that they were living in, and
Speaker 1: you know, you see how small the cells are, and
Speaker 1: you hear how many people are actually packed in there,
Speaker 1: and it's just such an interesting dichotomy of energy and
Speaker 1: and so do you think that that does something to
Speaker 1: the space in a way. Do you think that the
Speaker 1: building is kind of affected by that or do you
Speaker 1: think that like things change depending on what's happening, like
Speaker 1: the daytime activities versus the nighttime.
Speaker 2: I will say that I've got I've got my fair
Speaker 2: share of theories. M I think that I think that
Speaker 2: human empathy still plays a huge part in there. I
Speaker 2: think that I think that.
Speaker 3: The the energy that was that was released into that building,
Speaker 3: the the sorts of things that that seeped into the
Speaker 3: walls and.
Speaker 2: The floors, you know, that will never go away. I
Speaker 2: think that I think that they they can be revived
Speaker 2: and refreshed with that empathy when somebody like you walks
Speaker 2: into that space and and feels that and sees that.
Speaker 2: I think that that that does play an interactive role
Speaker 2: and in what still takes place in there. And I
Speaker 2: think that that happens when somebody like you sees the
Speaker 2: size of those cells, sees the nature of the beds
Speaker 2: in which they slept, and makes those realizations.
Speaker 1: I completely agree. And you know, it's uh. I do
Speaker 1: think that sometimes. I think sometimes energy and activity isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily a person per se or their consciousness, but it's
Speaker 1: almost just like the build up of maybe tragedy or
Speaker 1: turmoil that happened. And I think the perfect example of
Speaker 1: that is when you go into solitary confinement there. You know,
Speaker 1: when we took chip coffee there our psychic medium, you know,
Speaker 1: we didn't want him to see that he was walking
Speaker 1: into a jail. All he knew was he was in
Speaker 1: Florida and he was insane. Augustin he probably thought he
Speaker 1: was going to the lighthouse or something. But you know,
Speaker 1: the way that we work around that is we bring
Speaker 1: him to places blindfolded. And I think probably the most
Speaker 1: guilty I've ever felt was when we brought him there
Speaker 1: blindfolded and sat him right down into solitary and he
Speaker 1: had no idea where he was, and he just completely
Speaker 1: became overwhelmed with emotion, to the point that I was
Speaker 1: crying just looking at him, and I kept asking, like,
Speaker 1: do you want me to get you? Are you ready?
Speaker 1: And he wanted to keep feeling it and try to
Speaker 1: get more information, but it was so hard to watch.
Speaker 1: And so do other people, not just psychics, but do
Speaker 1: other people go into solitary and feel that as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people who have never really been in tune with
Speaker 2: their own responses in that regard come to moments of
Speaker 2: understanding in that building And one of the most frequent
Speaker 2: areas where that happens is when they get too close
Speaker 2: to solitary confinement. You know, it's by the way, for
Speaker 2: anybody who has seen the show, I can tell you
Speaker 2: firsthand that yes, poor sweet love, wonderful chip and he's
Speaker 2: such a great guy. I watched you lead him. Uh. Well,
Speaker 2: I watched him get led across the property blindfolded. He
Speaker 2: had no idea where he was. I I watched this happen. Uh.
Speaker 2: And and yes, his response was real. Uh, it wasn't.
Speaker 2: It wasn't something that that I didn't see coming. And
Speaker 2: I I also felt that guilt. I felt I felt
Speaker 2: really really terrible for for the poor guy. And a
Speaker 2: lot of people have have that response in there. A
Speaker 2: lot of people will will feel a sense of heartbreak
Speaker 2: or or start crying for no reason, become overwhelmed, uh,
Speaker 2: in a way that sometimes manifests itself physically where they
Speaker 2: start to feel dizzy, lightheaded. Suddenly it's too much. I
Speaker 2: have to sit down. I I can't keep going. And
Speaker 2: it happens very frequently. Right around that cell.
Speaker 1: I could see that. And then you said, I think
Speaker 1: I remember you telling me a story once about solitary,
Speaker 1: like a group seeing something or experiencing something. What can
Speaker 1: what can people experience near a solitary?
Speaker 2: Thank you for asking me about that. That is one
Speaker 2: of my favorite stories. So I used to I used
Speaker 2: to have to hire these these people who would would
Speaker 2: come in and you know they're they're going to tell
Speaker 2: stories for a living. They're going to play cops and
Speaker 2: robbers for a living. And you pointed out by the
Speaker 2: way the tone, the atmosphere there at the property, it
Speaker 2: has to be set up in a way to where
Speaker 2: people can find what they're looking for and only what
Speaker 2: they're looking for. If you want to find the truth
Speaker 2: in the building, you will through the presentation. But if
Speaker 2: you're there with your family and you just want to,
Speaker 2: you know, play cops and robbers and take a few
Speaker 2: fun pictures, you can do that too. And and this
Speaker 2: poor sweet young guy just just started his new job
Speaker 2: at the old jail as a storyteller, dressed as a prisoner.
Speaker 2: He was having a great time with it. But he
Speaker 2: did not believe in the baron normal, did not believe
Speaker 2: in ghosts. He knows, of course, that we're making it
Speaker 2: all up, which is perfectly fine with them and the
Speaker 2: rest of us. Shruggert shoulders. This happens to so many
Speaker 2: of them for the first time when they have their
Speaker 2: first experience. But with him, he was in the middle
Speaker 2: of telling the story right next to solitary confinement. He's
Speaker 2: got this very eager, very interested group listening Joeman. He
Speaker 2: was very good at what he did. He's telling his
Speaker 2: story and they're taking pictures of everything. One woman in
Speaker 2: the group suddenly gasps, and then the person next to
Speaker 2: her looks at her camera and gasps too, and then
Speaker 2: everybody starts gathering around. Get away from that cell. Get
Speaker 2: away from that cell. They told him, you've got to
Speaker 2: come for and see this, and he came over and
Speaker 2: there she'd gotten a perfect picture of an arm reaching
Speaker 2: out from solitary confinement right towards his shoulder. Geez. He
Speaker 2: bolted and the group bolted right behind him. Uh, I
Speaker 2: got a call. He came downstairs, you know, tried tried
Speaker 2: to calm the group down. They were trying to calm
Speaker 2: the Troy guide down. He left, he went home again.
Speaker 2: Super nice gun. He was great at what he did.
Speaker 2: But you know, they have their first intrones are in
Speaker 2: that place, and for some of them it's just it's
Speaker 2: too much, it's too much to bangor too to have
Speaker 2: that much reality. But right in front of you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had I mean, we've had a few experiences
Speaker 1: with crew members on various shows where the same kind
Speaker 1: of thing happens where they have their first kind of
Speaker 1: real experience. Like they come in thinking that everything we're doing,
Speaker 1: I I was just for TV. Oh, I'm sure they're
Speaker 1: faking it. Oh I'm sure, Yeah, sure, whatever, And then
Speaker 1: they have their first real experience and it becomes a
Speaker 1: whole other world to them. But I do think it
Speaker 1: makes you think though, beyond what we know, and I
Speaker 1: think I think it's a it's a big moment because
Speaker 1: it certainly makes you kind of look at your whole
Speaker 1: reality differently. You know, you start having thoughts of like
Speaker 1: your own mortality, the afterlife, like what is the paranormal?
Speaker 1: And so it just once you have that experience, there's
Speaker 1: really no turning back. Although I have seen people over
Speaker 1: time convince themselves, you know, something else happened or whatever,
Speaker 1: but because it becomes too much. But many times it
Speaker 1: just opens up a whole new realm of possibilities, and
Speaker 1: to a lot of people, those possibilities are terrifying.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my favorite moments with the team there
Speaker 2: and this this this would be a lot of people's
Speaker 2: first encounter with an energy that was something that they
Speaker 2: couldn't explain right away, would be at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, be sitting at the bottom of the stairs,
Speaker 2: listening very carefully, waiting for the last tourists to walk
Speaker 2: out of the building, because the upstairs portion we let
Speaker 2: them explore on their own. And then they leave and
Speaker 2: we hear the door open and close, last tour of
Speaker 2: the day, you know, the last few people take their
Speaker 2: time with their pictures. What will sometimes happen is we'll
Speaker 2: be sitting there waiting, you know, for for a half
Speaker 2: hour or longer, just hearing the conversation, thinking what could
Speaker 2: be taking them so long? Why why are they spending
Speaker 2: so much time upstairs? The tour itself wasn't this long.
Speaker 2: And then finally somebody gets brave and goes up the
Speaker 2: stairs quietly and looks around. Here the conversation. We can
Speaker 2: still hear it, except there's nobody up there, and and
Speaker 2: that moment, at that moment, you usually see the guide
Speaker 2: come running right back down the stairs. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that is always so disconcerting when you hear
Speaker 1: like full movement things happening, and you're just you assume
Speaker 1: someone is there, and when there isn't, it's just your
Speaker 1: whole body kind of just turns cold. You're like what
Speaker 1: did I just experience? Now another thing that I know
Speaker 1: is seeing frequently in the jail, and I have a
Speaker 1: theory on these, but maybe you can describe how what
Speaker 1: people experience when they see this thing. Now, I understand
Speaker 1: you guys have a crawler, So what is the crawler?
Speaker 2: So so what it? What it is? What what people experience?
Speaker 2: What they what they see or interact with. Is something
Speaker 2: so pitch black that when all the lights are out,
Speaker 2: when there's nothing but night, when you can't even see
Speaker 2: your own hand in front of your face, you can
Speaker 2: still see this darkness because it is so black that
Speaker 2: it seems it's it's like it's absorbing any light that
Speaker 2: that that could possibly illuminate it and turning it into
Speaker 2: into something darker than the shadows. It's ah, it almost
Speaker 2: looks human. It allmost like almost like it it's midmaking
Speaker 2: though it it it. It moves across the floor, it
Speaker 2: moves up the wall, it moves across the bars on
Speaker 2: the cell block in a way that's not natural. But
Speaker 2: when people encounter it for the first time, of course,
Speaker 2: it's wildly unnerving. They're absolutely terrified. It's it's something that's
Speaker 2: coming for me. I've seen this in movies, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Except I don't think it's conscious. I think that it's
Speaker 2: I think it's the remnants of the human experience in there.
Speaker 1: So I have a theory on the crawlers, and I
Speaker 1: agree with you. I see them, and we tend to
Speaker 1: see them in more like institutional type places where there
Speaker 1: was a lot of misery for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: you know, off the top of my head, like obviously
Speaker 1: the one that is at the jail, which I saw
Speaker 1: when we were there. Waverley Hills has reported one before
Speaker 1: trans Alleghany Lunatic Asylum has reported one. I saw one
Speaker 1: at the Oddfellows Complex or Belvoir Winery and Liberty, Missouri.
Speaker 1: So it's always these places that were institutional in some
Speaker 1: way and just had a lot of emotional turmoil. And
Speaker 1: so I do agree it's some weird manifestation of that.
Speaker 1: And I almost think paranormal investigations are interest in the
Speaker 1: paranormal kind of leads it a little bit, as that
Speaker 1: makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think so that goes along with my
Speaker 2: theory about the the human empathy interacting with the energies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think I think when you go looking for it.
Speaker 2: If it's if it's there, you're already kind of stirring.
Speaker 1: The pot, right right, And so I do, like I
Speaker 1: feel like the jail definitely shifted. They do do investigations
Speaker 1: there now, Like I know, whenever we do strange escapes
Speaker 1: in Saint Augustine, we always have like a little add
Speaker 1: on investigation that people can do at the jail. And
Speaker 1: it seems like they're approaching the investigations with a lot
Speaker 1: of empathy and sympathy, which I think is great, Like
Speaker 1: they you know, focus on like, hey, we're hearing your stories.
Speaker 1: We know you know, we are not passing judgment on
Speaker 1: you because you are in jail. And it seems like
Speaker 1: it gets a lot of responses. So do you think
Speaker 1: that the energy has kind of changed over the years
Speaker 1: when it became kind of more of a situation where
Speaker 1: you were kind of shedding light on the situation as
Speaker 1: opposed to maybe like when it first opened, it might
Speaker 1: have seemed more of like a kind of a morbid
Speaker 1: fascination if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, when it first opened, it was it
Speaker 2: was it was not about the these are the atrocities
Speaker 2: of our past. Because it opened only a year after
Speaker 2: it closed as a jail right as one of Florida's
Speaker 2: roadside attractions. You know, the stories that we tell now
Speaker 2: are really to pay homage to, you know, the the
Speaker 2: pard in history that this building played. I do know
Speaker 2: that the energy has changed in there. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know how much it's changed, and I don't
Speaker 2: know the why, because I also don't know how much
Speaker 2: of the energy in there is conscious. I don't know
Speaker 2: how many of the energies in there were actually people
Speaker 2: that maybe you know they were. They were judged so
Speaker 2: harshly in life, perhaps for even things they didn't do,
Speaker 2: you know, to to move on from here to their
Speaker 2: final judgment might be more than they can bear, and
Speaker 2: to to consider the mentality of the time. So I'm
Speaker 2: not sure how the energy has changed or why. I
Speaker 2: know that I know that it has changed a lot, uh,
Speaker 2: and I believe that the empathy and the reasons for
Speaker 2: probing have something to do with that. And I'm not
Speaker 2: really sure how much of the energy in there is conscious.
Speaker 1: Right now, that brings up an interesting point, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of your role at the jail now. You were
Speaker 1: there for a number of years. I almost felt like
Speaker 1: you had kind of a a a really great relationship
Speaker 1: with the building. Like I know during during our kind
Speaker 1: of reveal at the end of Kindred, there we play
Speaker 1: some EVPs for you and you got visibly emotional, like
Speaker 1: there were tears in your eyes when you heard those voices,
Speaker 1: and so I know you were attached to that building.
Speaker 1: How does it feel to not be there now?
Speaker 2: And then?
Speaker 1: Do you think that they miss you?
Speaker 2: No, I don't think they missed me at all. I
Speaker 2: mean that's sweet, but I think you never know I
Speaker 2: got true true. I think I was. I think I
Speaker 2: was definitely more invested in their stories though than they
Speaker 2: were in mind. And so uh uh so so yeah,
Speaker 2: the I'll say this about about the investigation that that
Speaker 2: you and the crew did. You and Adam you. I
Speaker 2: I've worked with several paranormal groups. I've worked with a
Speaker 2: few of the TV shows that have come in there,
Speaker 2: I've worked with, uh. I've worked with most of them actually,
Speaker 2: uh during my tenure. But when you, when you came in,
Speaker 2: you you approached it from from a sense of sincerity
Speaker 2: that I had not yet seen. Uh. In fact, I
Speaker 2: did not yet experienced a group come in and be
Speaker 2: as honest and forthright about the investigation. If if you'd
Speaker 2: come in and done the investigation and found nothing, uh,
Speaker 2: it would have been a very boring episode. But you
Speaker 2: wouldn't have fabricated anything. You no, no, and I and
Speaker 2: and that amount of honesty was was something that I
Speaker 2: was unfamiliar with with paranormal groups, especially from the from
Speaker 2: the were we're producing something for commercial consumption. I appreciated that.
Speaker 2: I valued that, and and as a result, I think
Speaker 2: you came up with more than anybody else had before
Speaker 2: the uh, the sincerity at which you approached the stories
Speaker 2: and and and uncovered voices that that had previously been quiet.
Speaker 2: You know that that I had done a lot of
Speaker 2: research for to to try to find. Yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 2: that that warranted an honest response from me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well we pride ourselves on that. So I'm thankful
Speaker 1: that you saw that because I am you know that's
Speaker 1: we working in paranormal television is Uh, it's hard to
Speaker 1: maintain your integrity with with such a with such a profession,
Speaker 1: But like Adam and I have been determined since day
Speaker 1: one to always be on the level and really like
Speaker 1: give it our all. And because we know other investigators
Speaker 1: out there want to see that, I want to do that,
Speaker 1: and so so thank you. I I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1: That means a lot. So so on that note, if
Speaker 1: people do want to visit the jail and experience these
Speaker 1: things for themselves, like what do they have to do.
Speaker 2: Well, they have to show up pretty much. The old
Speaker 2: Saint John's County Jail is now a living history museum
Speaker 2: in Saint Augustine, Florida. You can go to trolley Tours
Speaker 2: dot com to find out more about that and the
Speaker 2: the paranormal investigation as well as well as all of
Speaker 2: the other things that we do in seven cities, uh
Speaker 2: seven historic locations throughout the United States. But but we're
Speaker 2: invested in telling the stories. And if you want to
Speaker 2: find out more about that and and come and see
Speaker 2: it for yourself, then then either show up uh and
Speaker 2: and and you'll be welcomed and arrested properly, or or
Speaker 2: go check us out online and see about planning your
Speaker 2: next trip.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, everyone I've met there has been wonderful. I
Speaker 1: love all of your your tour guides and employees. They're
Speaker 1: fully vested, they do great work and we always have
Speaker 1: a blast on we go there. Charlotte still brings it
Speaker 1: up today that you gave her a private tour, and
Speaker 1: she was so thrilled. So I loove that so well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Steve, when I super appreciate you
Speaker 1: taking the time. And hopefully I'll be down there again
Speaker 1: very soon.
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure, Amy, and please look.
Speaker 1: Me up, I will for sure. I The Old City
Speaker 1: Jail is such a striking haunt to me. Every time
Speaker 1: I visit. I am astounded at the sound of children
Speaker 1: laughing as they bound by me, ice cream cones in hand.
Speaker 1: The building itself looms amid all the vacationers and tourists.
Speaker 1: A cob artifacts inside, including an extensive shive collection. While
Speaker 1: I'm sure the more lively energy is welcome in a
Speaker 1: place that once harbored so much death and despair, I
Speaker 1: can't help but wonder about how much of that imprint
Speaker 1: is left. Because when the laughing children have departed and
Speaker 1: the doors closed for the evening, just as the sun
Speaker 1: is beginning to set, the Old City Jail becomes an
Speaker 1: entirely different place. I'm Amy Bruney, and this was Haunted Road.
Speaker 1: Haunted Road is hosted and written by me Amy Bruney,
Speaker 1: with additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn and Cassandra de Alba.
Speaker 1: This show is edited and produced by rema El Kali,
Speaker 1: with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Manke,
Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Learn
Speaker 1: more about this show over at Grimanmild dot com, and
Speaker 1: for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.