WEBVTT - MSG: Umami and Chinese Restaurant Syndrome 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.160 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how stupworks 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:15.640 dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.680 My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.600 What if I told you that a silent killer worse 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:28.880 than alcohol, nicotine, and drugs is likely lurking in your 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:34.240 kitchen cabinets and even your child's school cafeteria. Oh man, 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.320 that's that's rough, because silent killers are the worst killers. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:39.520 I fire prefer the loud ones, so I know they're coming. 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:43.000 And Uh, of those substances that you mentioned, only some 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.559 of those are my favorites. So um yeah, I'm I'm 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.000 I'm instantly concerned. I'm going to start looking around in 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.280 my cabinets and trying to figure out where this nefarious 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.120 force is hiding. Now, lest I be accused of plagiarism, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.480 I should give attribution. That is a quote from an 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.600 article on a on an alternative myths and website called 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:07.360 Mercola that is about MSG, the food additive MSG. You've 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.880 often heard of it associated with Chinese food. Probably it's 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.160 monosodium glutamate, and that's what we're gonna be talking about today. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.640 But we wanted to start with some of the scare tactics, 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.759 because you had to hear it right here that MSG 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:24.960 is quote worse than drugs, worse than drugs. I love 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.800 that the blandness of that statement. Worse than all drugs, 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.160 worse than drugs, but surely better than some drugs. And 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.000 then also, are we just talking about what drugs right? 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.400 The drugs that take our pain away or the drugs 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.240 that that ruin us? I mean, it's there. There's so 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.200 many different interpretations of that statement. Quick side note, Robert, 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.240 what's your favorite fictional drug from a movie or book? Oh? 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.520 You know, I have to go with the spice. But 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.880 I also like simuda, which is the the drug that 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.960 they that some individuals in the Done universe take and 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.920 they listen to some sort of weird music semunda music 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.960 that can only really be processed. You're taking this particular drug. Well, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.360 MSG is worse than that too, because what does it do? 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:07.960 I don't know, it does a lot of stuff. Apparently, 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.360 if you listen to to everyone who has ever complained 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.480 about MSG, it has ever proposed, and you know, a 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.560 negative symptom of taking MSG, then it sounds like just 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.079 the worst thing imaginable Okay, so Robert, tell me your 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.519 MSG story. How did you become acquainted with this killer, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:30.160 the silent killer chemical? Alright, So growing up I was 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.880 I don't remember ever being privy to any direct anti 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.840 MSG messaging, Like, nobody have me watch a video, nobody 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.720 made me read a paper about it. It was just 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.679 this thing that you just heard. Oh well, MSG is 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.720 to be avoided. You go to the local Chinese restaurant 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.680 and your small American town, there's likely to be a 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.840 no MSG sign there on the wall, just to let 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:55.760 you know before you even think about coming in the 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.120 door that there is going to be no MSG. And 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.480 I and not even knowing what it was, I just 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.080 kind of had in my mind that it was some 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.880 sort of some sort of chemical, some sort of cheating 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:11.120 substance that allow the the individuals that are making the 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.880 food to to trick you into enjoying something. It's the 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.960 anabolic steroids of food, the doping of food. But as 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.840 we're gonna discuss in this episode, there's there's virtually nothing 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.720 to any of this. Uh, this fearmongering, decades worth of 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.320 fear mongering, but it still refuses to completely go away. Yeah, 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.760 I think we will in the end probably be able 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.000 to speculate a good bit on where a lot of 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.560 this fear comes from. But I encountered it to when 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.920 I was growing up. So I remember one of my 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.560 favorite restaurants when I was a kid was this little 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.680 brick storefront Chinese restaurant in Chattanooga, Tennessee called China Lee. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.840 I love going there. They made some delicious seguan beef. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.720 I don't know if i'd still think it was good 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.200 if I went there today. I don't know if they're 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.840 still open. But at the time, I loved it and 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:56.640 I would go there and I would you know, I 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.080 was a kid, but if you had this experience at 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.200 Chinese restaurant when you were a little where you just 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.600 like eat to the point of pain and then you'd 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:09.680 keep going. But I also remember this slight psychological taint 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:14.080 to the experience because I would hear adults talking about 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.360 Chinese food and MSG. There was this clear link in 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.320 my mind that I had overheard from adult conversation and 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.120 I didn't really understand it. But what I generally did 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.560 get was that MSG was some sort of dangerous chemical 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.120 and it was all in Chinese food. But if it 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.200 was so dangerous. Why do we eat it? Why did 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.240 my parents take me? Yeah? And then the other side 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.600 of it too for me, is that, Okay, it's something 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.239 that they're using to cheat you into into They're cheating, 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.560 they're making the food taste better than it is. But 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.520 the same thing can be said of pretty much every 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.520 food additive that has ever been. Every spice in your 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:53.760 cabinet is a way to cheat and make food tastes better. Yes, 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.160 that's what the salt, pepper, everything else like that. Just 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.960 the act the art of cooking is, Hey, how can 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.240 we make this particular ular slab of protein, this particular 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.440 heap of vegetables, how can we make this biomass, uh, 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.880 you know, taste better and and be more digestible for 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.320 the human body. Yeah, But of course I don't know. 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.800 I got this message somehow. So when I was a kid. 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.080 I do remember one instance where a friend of mine 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.200 was sick. He was like laid out on the couch 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.279 for a couple of days, and I remember it was 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.320 attributed to the msg content of some Chinese food he'd 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.239 eaten the day before. I don't know where that idea 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.039 came from. I don't know if their doctor told them 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.920 that or if that's just what a parent concluded, but yeah, 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.560 that's what they said. And then later I think I 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.200 softened a little bit on MSG, but in a in 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.039 another disgusting way, because the next time I remember encountering 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.520 it in my life, I was in college and a 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.760 friend and roommate of mine at the time was teaching 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.200 me how to make a recipe for this dip that 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.480 came from his family. I think his grandmother had made 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.440 it or something. All the recipes you learned in college 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.560 tend to be yeah, be a little suspect. I wouldn't 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.640 judge this friend of mine by this dip. But the 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.000 dip in my memory is a little gross. So it 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.400 had Philadelphia cream cheese, chopped up sandwich meat which I 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.800 believe was Buddig beef, and then sliced green onions, and 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:20.240 the fourth ingredient was a container of shakon seasoning called accent. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:22.760 And I was like, what is this? I think I 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.599 might have seen this in my grandmother's kitchen cabinet, but 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.960 otherwise I didn't know what it was. And it said 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.400 wakes up food flavor. Well, that sounds good. You don't 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.400 want your food to be asleep, So I looked at 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.560 the ingredients, and the primary ingredients are actually the one 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:42.320 ingredient in this food flavor alarm clock was monosodium glutamate MSG, 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.320 the stuff that had supposedly laid out my childhood friend 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:49.240 with a body leveling illness, and the stuff that that 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.120 I always heard these creepy rumors about, Yeah, you actually 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.640 brought in a little container of accent. And one of 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.680 the things I love about it is that first of all, 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:02.680 there's there's no mention of MSG. Uh Um. Monosodium glutamate 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.640 is mentioned once on the back, and presumably they don't 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.200 have to say contains MSG because it is pure MSG. 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.360 You know, they save on the printing for this thing 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.040 because they don't have to print ingredients every time. It 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.160 just says ingredient and ends with the t roll and 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.880 monosodium glutamate. But they it's really an attempt to rebrand 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.160 it right instead of MSG, because MSG sounds I mean, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.600 it's it's the letters are tainted for us because of 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.560 these just decades of negative connotations, which we'll get into, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.760 and I would say it's also by the general problem 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.680 of chemophobia, people being afraid of chemical names of things, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.880 which we'll get to in the end, and I think 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.720 we should end by number one having an accent or 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.600 monosodium glutamate if you want to avoid the branding. Taste 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.520 tests on Mike and then see see if anything horrible 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.880 happens to us. And then also we should suggest some rebranding. Yes, 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.040 so as as we're going start thinking of new names 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.800 for MSG. Uh. Ways we can. We can reclaim this 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:07.119 chemical UH for our tasting pleasure. Right, so we should 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.679 go back and tell the story of MSG, Like where 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.800 did this food additive come from? Yeah, let's do it. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.440 Let's get to the origin story here. Mono sodium glutamate. 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:22.840 This chemical was discovered by Japanese chemist Kika Akada back 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:28.520 in nineteen o seven. So he was investigating flavoring and asparagus, 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:33.280 tomatoes and especially uh dachi seaweed soup that has a 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:38.520 strong umami flavor that that pleasant savory taste. Yeah, we're 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.040 much more familiar with you, mommy, these days. We hear 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.600 about it all the time in in cooking shows and 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.240 stuff like that. Now. I think decades back, people were 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.600 way less familiar with the concept of umami exactly what 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.360 it was. But ou, mommy, what is it? It's that 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.959 deeply savory, meaty flavor. It's not the same as something 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:01.400 being salty, but it's it's that kind of deep flavor 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.120 that you get from cheeses and meats and tomatoes. It's 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.120 there in anchovies, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.439 it's almost There's some wonderful descriptions out there for huma, 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.800 umammy and ummmy is such a wonderful one word. The 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.480 script is just rolling off your tongue once you've tasted it. Uh, 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.960 the two just go perfectly together. Uh. But yeah, you 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.319 kind of have to have tasted you mommy, and most 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.680 of us have, uh to really appreciate it. So Japanese 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.040 cuisine obviously had this concept of ou mommy, they know 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.320 what this delicious savory flavor is. But what a Kato 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.000 is able to do was to pinpoint the chemical cause 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.960 of this flavor, which was this substance that we now 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:46.000 know as glutamate yes um. In particular, he pinpoint pinpointed 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:51.439 glutamic acid. So this is an amino acid non essential 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.000 because the human body and various plants and animals can 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.040 produce it on their own and in the body gluten 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.200 Glutamic acid is often found as glutam mat one of 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.559 the most abundant neurotransmitters in the body, and it plays 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.760 an important role in memory and learning, and according to 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.440 the FDA, you can probably consume thirteen grams of it 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.400 of it a day in the protein in your food. Right, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.760 So glutamate is already there in your diet almost definitely, 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:18.959 you're eating foods with glutamate in them. Yeah, if you're 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.640 having tomatoes glutamate, If you haven't parmesan cheese, glutamate um, 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.280 and certainly if you're having some of the more processed 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:29.920 food items out there, various potato chips, etcetera, you're having glutamate. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.560 Glutamate is just part of eating as humans. Yeah, so 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.240 there's no there's no magic going on, right that this 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.000 is just a standard dietary chemical and as such we 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:45.000 do have receptors that are sort of programmed to taste it. Yeah. 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.400 All that I Keeda did here is he took that 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:52.079 naturally occurring glutamate and he solved the problem of then, well, 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.240 how do I how do I synthesize it, how do 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.439 I mass produce it? How can I get this in 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:01.800 a form that's stable to the consumer. And Uh, basically 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:03.559 What he did here is he figured out he could 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:07.800 synthesize the molecule by first extracting the glutamate from seaweed 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.760 and the mixing it with water and just common table 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:16.400 salt to stabilize the compound. Thus, mono sodium glutamate M 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.200 s G corn, it's table salt and it's glutamate. Yeah, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.360 we really can't drive drive that home enough that there's 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:28.679 there's no like extreme chemical um process here. There's no 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:34.160 weird magical ritual involved. This is just salt and glutamate 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.960 that come together into a stable form. So I have 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.760 to tell you that I don't know where I encountered 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.920 this idea, but years ago what I heard about the 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.920 way MSG works in your mouth is that it literally 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.160 quote tears holes in your tongue to make you taste 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:57.080 things more intensely. I can't remember where I came across this, 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.080 and I know I passed on this piece of false 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.800 information to peep whole plenty of time, like it tears 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.520 a hole in the fabric of our reality and then 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.959 demon taste from another universe kind of I never heard 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.440 anything quite that extreme, but I do remember hearing that 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.200 it like opens up the taste buds with the with 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.600 the emphasis being that it's doing so in an unnatural way, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.120 in almost like a drug induced way. Right. It would 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.280 be fascinating to find out where these rumors started about 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.280 its its mechanism of action. But anyway, so it went 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.040 on to become a popular commercial food additive. It wasn't 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.199 just anymore people putting glutamate rich foods into their foods 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.600 to season it. Like you could put parmesan cheese or 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.880 or seaweed or something like that into your food to 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:44.960 boost the glutamate content, or you could just isolate monosodium 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.520 glutamate and add that to increase this umami flavor without 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.040 adding the other ingredients, right, I mean basically, especially now 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.360 with with umm A, I feel like it's been very 0:12:54.440 --> 0:13:00.439 much a favorite keyword among foodies of the past decade, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.800 uh you know, and maybe longer. But there are plenty 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.079 of ways to to glued up your food to get 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.960 that glue to mate in there without MSG. MSG is 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.360 just kind of a a quick and easy way to 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.560 do it. Um So, this this quick and easy way 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:20.360 is rolled out by the Japanese company uh A Gino Moto, 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.840 and it it's you have this instant crystalline powder. That's 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.480 that's ready to just sprinkle on your food, and it's 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.880 an instant hit. Of course. Uh. They they patent it 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.240 it in nineteen o nine, and today the form that 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.160 you encounter tends to be made from beats and corn. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.160 It's known as MSG in the States, but Akita's name 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.360 still sticks elsewhere in the world. A geno moto or 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.040 essence of taste. You can still buy with under that 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.360 name at various you know, any anywhere you buy, you know, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.720 your local Asian market should have it, uh with that title. 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.120 And I should also point out that that Akito was 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.000 like he was tremendously sick, scessful with this. It was 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.960 apparently fabulously wealthy, uh in the early twenty century. Japan 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.360 died in the nineteen thirties, but this was his He 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.359 really hit it out of the park with this fabulous 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:15.080 flavor enhancer. So what could possibly go wrong? What could 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:20.000 what could possibly stop this juggernaut of taste from just 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.160 taking over the world. Well, we will answer that question 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:32.160 right after we get back from this break and we're back. 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:37.360 So Robert MSG glutamate, big flavor success story in the 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.920 history of of food flavoring and additives. Yes, big, big 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.960 flavor success story as a huge absolutely huge it. Yeah 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.320 it it is immediately a hit just throughout Asia. Allows 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.040 that allows people to give a meaty taste to non 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.200 meaty dishes. I've read that it was especially a popular 0:14:54.240 --> 0:15:00.480 among Buddhists abstaining from meat during periodic absence periods various 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.920 meat related fasts and uh in America too, and in Canada. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:10.400 Elsewhere in the world it really gains popularity. I mean, 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.240 you especially have to look back to World War two 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.520 era post and pre war America to see just how 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.240 ready we were for a flavor enhancer like this. On 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:26.120 one hand, you had you had the military industrial complex 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.200 here all right. You had the US military needing to 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.280 to boost the flavor and otherwise dull soldier rations. So 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.320 they turned to MSG easy way just to enhance uh 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.840 some some limited food options there, easier than adding bacon 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.800 to everything, right, and then industrialization of of all that 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.160 food it comes home with them after the war into 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.280 the American household. But even before World War Two, we 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.000 were essentially priming ourselves for such an advancement through the 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.440 home economics philosophy. So there was recently a wonderful um 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.440 interview on NPRS Fresh Air uh with Terry Gross married 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.880 culinary historians Jane Ziegelmann and Andy co appeared to promote 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.800 their book A Square Meal, the Culinary History of the 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.880 Great Depression, which it's a great, great interview, definitely check 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.000 it out. Um. But they point out that the home 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.960 economists of the age, they were not really into flavor. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.040 They were they were saying, all right, you needed, you 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.240 need to be fed, you need to be healthy. Uh, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.440 you have limited means of pulling that off. Here are 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.200 some strategies to do it. You can worry about spice 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.440 when when when things are going a little better for you. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.960 So they pushed pushed American science based ways to get 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.440 the best out of available food ractions, often in bizarre dishes, uh, 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.680 such as one that they discussed on in the interview 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.600 as being quote wrong in every possible way, was a 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:55.960 recipe that featured canned corn, beef, plain gelatine, can pas vinegar, 0:16:56.000 --> 0:17:01.600 and lemon juice. So so oh man, these these old 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:06.359 recipes you see from like magazines from the World War 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.680 two era, or it's like yeah, poor candle lima beans 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.240 and spam together there. But but you can see where 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.880 it's like they're engineering a meal. It's an engineering approach 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.200 to the American meal. And so MSG is is perfect 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.960 for that crystals that you sprinkle on there. Yeah, it's 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.040 modernism brought to food. Yeah. And it was apparently when 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.560 it was first marketed, uh, to the American housewife, it 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.919 was in this slender little bottle, you know, full of 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.000 the flavor crystals. It seemed like the future had arrived 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.040 in the form of this, uh, this wonderful enhancer UM. 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.359 And here's another important little little fact that Ziegelman and co. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.160 Point out. Though the home economist of the day, who 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.120 were creating all these strange recipes to make the best 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.480 out of the available rations they could have, they could 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.760 have found a lot of great, healthy and flavorful ways 0:17:58.080 --> 0:17:59.879 to get the most out of those rations if they 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.800 turn to America's immigrant communities. But of course, for a 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.840 number of reasons, including implicit or even overt racial bias 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.320 or xenophobia, they didn't do it. And I'm not just 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:14.160 talking about um, you know, certainly Asian immigrants, but even 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:19.880 like Italian immigrants, Um, they they had they had various 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.800 tactics to to make the best out of the available 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.639 rations so with the with Italian immigrants, of course, you know, 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.760 depending up more on pasta at One of the examples 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.680 they point out is is using dandelion greens. That the 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.840 Italian immigrants carried that tradition with them, and that would 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.680 have been a wonderful, uh, a wonderful tactic to to 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.200 educate the American public about, but they didn't. Instead, it's 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.000 more like gelatine and meat and stuff. Yeah. Well, us 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.040 who live in big cities in America today were just 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.440 so used to international cuisine. I think it's a thing 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.639 that's become thoroughly part of American culture to have a 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.879 Chinese restaurant, a Mexican restaurant, a Thai restaurant, and an 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.040 Italian restaurant and all that, And it can be kind 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.320 of hard for us to imagine what it was like 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.720 for I don't know, maybe a lot of Midwesterners or 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.400 something like that, to to see these strange foods from 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.200 exotic lands. Yeah. Well, I feel like we can all um, 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.000 in many cases, we can. We can look to older 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.919 members of our family, particularly I remember, I think there 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:26.439 are stories of this with uh grandparents on my on 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:28.760 both my side and my wife's side of the family. 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.000 Both of them had very similar stories about going to 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.960 an ethnic restaurant. Uh. In my own grandfather's case, it 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.360 was a Mexican restaurant, and I didn't want to try 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:45.040 any of the more exotic food there, ordered an American 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.360 hamburger and complain for the rest of his life that 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.960 they served him at quote a hot hamburger. Uh. It 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.160 was a harrowing experience. But but I feel like this 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.760 is kind of a universal experience among of among a 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.520 lot of older Americans and now in many cases deceased Americans, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.360 where suddenly there were all these these more flavorful options, 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.720 these exotic options, these new options, and you know, it's 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.920 only natural to approach those, uh, those new flavors with 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.280 a certain amount of skepticism, to say nothing of you know, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.919 your your your own taste, your own palate, being less 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:27.399 uh inclined to enjoy those that new baraga flavors. But 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.520 of course, as we have warned you at the end 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:34.840 of this great MSG success story, did come some backlash. Yeah, 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:36.800 and when we say success story, we're not just talking 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.480 about other Chinese restaurants. But it's in, it's being used 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:43.000 in everything, it's in, It's in children's cereals, soup, it's 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.040 in soup. It's just all over the place. It's just 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.080 they become a standard part of the industrialization of food. 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.840 But also just like just just cooking in your kitchen. 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.560 And then we enter a period in the in the 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:01.040 early sixties where people began to uh to to question 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.600 some of the chemicals in their food. Uh. There's a 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.200 big book that came out in sixty two by Rachel 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.160 Carson titled Silent Spring that kicked off a lot of 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.399 a great deal of backlash just against chemicals and cooking 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.120 in general. I mean, I don't think I try to 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:21.399 blame Rachel Carson for irrational chemophobia. Indirectly, it might have 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.639 had this unintended influence. It starts this, It starts as 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.320 a narrative in in many people's minds. It forces us 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.080 to to to to ask some good, some important questions 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.320 about how our foods coming together and where it's coming from. 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:39.760 But but as we all know, a little information, uh 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.359 can can sometimes be just enough to spin off some 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.760 of some paranoia. Okay, Robert, where did this narrative of 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:52.040 Chinese restaurants syndrome come from? Well, it's everyone seems to 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:56.479 trace it back to one particular letter published in the 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.199 New England Journal of Medicine in nineteen sixty eight. All right, 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.040 and uh it's it's actually written by a Chinese American 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.000 doctor by the name of Robert home Man Quawk, and 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.600 he claimed that twenty minutes after eating at a Northern 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:15.960 Chinese food restaurant. So we're talking, you know, strong flavoring, seasoning, 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.919 wheat flour, as opposed to as opposed to, you know, 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.000 more of the spicy punch of Central Chinese cooking, or 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:24.600 or any of the other various culinary traditions to be 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.080 found in China. I think a Northern Chinese cooking is 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.200 less rice centric, right, it has more like wheat noodles 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.400 and things like that. Yeah, yeah, rice south, wheat north. 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.320 So he's saying, all right, eight at this North Chinese 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:40.919 food restaurant, and that resulted in quote numbness at the 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.800 back of the neck, gradually radiating to both arms and 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.600 the back, general weakness and palpitation. Okay, so he ate 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.720 a big meal. That's the that's the thing, and that's 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:53.719 the That's one of the questions that keeps coming up 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:55.840 for me as I read any of these accounts is like, 0:22:56.040 --> 0:23:00.080 who among us has not eaten restaurant food, and in 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.560 many cases eating far more restaurant food than we should 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.120 have and paid a price. Yeah you you gorge yourself 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.560 on some salty delights and then you felt kind of 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.720 bad afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, Oh it was salty and it 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:15.520