WEBVTT - Meet Maya Shankar: A Conversation with Michael Lewis

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey, I'm Maya Shunker, host of the new podcast

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<v Speaker 1>a slight change of plans from Pushkin Industries. We have

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<v Speaker 1>an amazing season lined up for you, where I talk

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<v Speaker 1>with folks who've navigated remarkable changes in their lives. To

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<v Speaker 1>help kick things off, I called up my good friend

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<v Speaker 1>and fellow podcast host, Michael Lewis. We talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>inspiration for my show and you'll get a little sneak

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<v Speaker 1>peek of what's to come this season. I am recording,

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<v Speaker 1>and Michael, before we started talking about the podcast, I

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<v Speaker 1>did want to share. I went on memory lane a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit around our friendship because we've been friends for like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, five six years. So I went back

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<v Speaker 1>into the Gmail chambers and I found something very fun

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<v Speaker 1>from twenty fifteen. This is after my husband Jimmy and

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<v Speaker 1>I hung out with you at Dick Taylor's birthday party. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so we spent like a few days together. So I

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<v Speaker 1>sent you the following email. Dearest Michael, Jimmy, Lee and

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<v Speaker 1>I would like to sign up to be your friend.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll work with your agent to complete the relevant paperwork.

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<v Speaker 1>Best May and Jimmy. So, first of all, clearly I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how to play hard to get. But thankfully

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<v Speaker 1>you didn't really enjoy the chase, because you wrote back

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<v Speaker 1>right away, Dear Maya, your application has been reviewed by

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<v Speaker 1>our committee. All boxes seem to be checked. We are

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<v Speaker 1>pleased to inform you of your acceptance. Michael, Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 1>that probably again, I have a feeling we share these

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<v Speaker 1>character traits. I have a feeling we both assume that

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<v Speaker 1>other people would want to be friends with us, and

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<v Speaker 1>so we don't actually aren't very shy about it. When

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<v Speaker 1>I met you there, you had no media ambition. You

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<v Speaker 1>were an advisor to Obama. How did you even get

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<v Speaker 1>interested in being a podcaster? So during quarantine, I was

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<v Speaker 1>feeling really overwhelmed by all the changes that were happening

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<v Speaker 1>around me. I think everybody was feeling really overwhelmed by

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<v Speaker 1>the change happening around them. And I think I realized

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<v Speaker 1>because I'm a cognitive scientist, so I was thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>this from the perspective of psychology, right, which is like,

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<v Speaker 1>how do we interact with this change thing that just

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<v Speaker 1>happens in our lives whether we like it or not.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, maybe the specifics of what twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>through our way is unprecedented but our human ability to

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<v Speaker 1>navigate change is not. And so maybe if we heard

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<v Speaker 1>stories from people who have experienced extraordinary changes in their lives,

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<v Speaker 1>we could learn something interesting. Right, there's no manual out

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<v Speaker 1>there on how to navigate big life changes. We don't

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<v Speaker 1>know what that process is supposed to look like. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no science textbook on this. And so I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>let's dig up the most fascinating change stories, changes of

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<v Speaker 1>all kinds, right, and then let's see what we can learn.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's let's see we can change our own minds about change.

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<v Speaker 1>So you started with the subject rather than the ambition.

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<v Speaker 1>You didn't think, Oh, I want to be a podcaster

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<v Speaker 1>unless what should I do it about? Definitely not. That's

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<v Speaker 1>just not the directionality that works for my brain. I

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<v Speaker 1>need to have a really fascinating thing to say that

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<v Speaker 1>feels interesting to me. It can't be the reverse. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>I really I love podcasts, so I love the audio medium.

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<v Speaker 1>It's super immersive for me, way more immersive than TV.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm a huge fan of podcasts, but I just

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<v Speaker 1>never imagine myself having a show of my own. What

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<v Speaker 1>were your favorite podcasts? Well, I'm a big Bachelor fan,

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<v Speaker 1>as you know. Ye, So I absolutely subscribe to all

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<v Speaker 1>the main Bachelor fan podcasts YEP. I like interview shows.

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<v Speaker 1>I listen of course to like Laurie's Santos Is Happiness Lab. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>let me just pull up my podcast feed right now

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<v Speaker 1>and tell you what's on there. Yeah, I mean, I've

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<v Speaker 1>got the classic ones, so like The Daily Got against

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<v Speaker 1>the Rules, but that seems shameless right now. Revisionist history

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<v Speaker 1>still processing Hidden Brain. How Oh I love How I

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<v Speaker 1>Built This. I actually part of me when I was

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about this podcast was like, oh, How I built

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<v Speaker 1>this talks about these elaborate journeys of humans who have

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<v Speaker 1>built incredible things, and I was like, I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>want a version of like How I built this life,

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<v Speaker 1>And so that was part of the inspiration, which was

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<v Speaker 1>people are going through all these changes, and how do

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<v Speaker 1>they maneuver and how do they find creative solutions along

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<v Speaker 1>the way, and how do they navigate? Have you always

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<v Speaker 1>been interested in change? This is kind of come up?

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<v Speaker 1>You know? I study change, right, So I study how

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<v Speaker 1>and why people change. I study how and why people

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<v Speaker 1>make decisions, how they developed their attitudes and beliefs about

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<v Speaker 1>the world. But I never elevated change to an important concept.

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<v Speaker 1>Until I was thinking about this podcast. It felt in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty like a really big deal to think about,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think against the backdrop of such a broken

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<v Speaker 1>political society, it felt especially important to figure out how

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<v Speaker 1>and why we change in potentially good ways because we

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<v Speaker 1>are seeing so many fractures. But yeah, your your observation

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<v Speaker 1>that this is a moment to investigate the phenomenon because

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<v Speaker 1>of COVID is a really good one, and it's to me,

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<v Speaker 1>it's interesting because you can see what's happen. You can

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<v Speaker 1>see now as as we start to come out of

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<v Speaker 1>it by fits and starts. But that a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people they had to change, and it's hard for them

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<v Speaker 1>all over again because they have to change that they've got.

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<v Speaker 1>They've adapted to some new kind of way of going

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<v Speaker 1>through the world, and they feel a kind of hesitancy

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<v Speaker 1>about going back to the old ways. So people have

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<v Speaker 1>very different attitudes towards it. It's not just one thing

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<v Speaker 1>for everybody that's exactly right, and it's not one thing

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<v Speaker 1>for everyone over the course of their lives, right right.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's one thing we're finding out is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>huge childhood trauma with change doesn't necessarily mean that you

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<v Speaker 1>have an aversion to it later on, right, And we

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<v Speaker 1>see some of that unfold in some of the stories. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So give me an example of that. Give me an

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<v Speaker 1>example of someone whose attitude towards change has changed. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So one person I interviewed was Tiffany Hattish. She is

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<v Speaker 1>an incredible comedian. She just won Best Comedy Album at

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<v Speaker 1>the Grammys this year, making her the first black woman

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<v Speaker 1>to win this award since the early eighties when Whoopie

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<v Speaker 1>Goldberg won it. And she had a deeply traumatic childhood.

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<v Speaker 1>When she was eight, her mom had a really terrible

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<v Speaker 1>car accident that left her with severe brain damage and

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<v Speaker 1>made her extremely violent and very verbally abusive. And Tiffany's

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<v Speaker 1>having to navigate this new world where this person that

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<v Speaker 1>she loved most in the world is now actively tormenting her.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's a profound change in her life. And

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<v Speaker 1>so what's fascinating about Tiffany's story is that she recognized

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<v Speaker 1>early on as a kid that she had this talent

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<v Speaker 1>and that was to make people laugh. But rather than

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<v Speaker 1>treating it as this recreational hobby, right, the thing that

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<v Speaker 1>she just did, you know, with her friends and whatnot,

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<v Speaker 1>she repurposed it into a survival tool, and so she

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<v Speaker 1>uses this over the course of her life. When she's

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<v Speaker 1>a kid, she tries to make her mom laugh, even

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<v Speaker 1>just for a moment, to distract her from getting hit.

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<v Speaker 1>Does it work and it's working. Yes. She goes to school,

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't know how to read. She charms her classmates into

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<v Speaker 1>letting her copy their homework by making them laugh and

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<v Speaker 1>being the class clown. And so she's so traumatized by

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<v Speaker 1>change early in her life, but then slowly realizes that

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<v Speaker 1>she's identified that she has this superpower along the way,

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<v Speaker 1>and so now there's an element of her that embraces

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<v Speaker 1>change because she realizes that she's got this amazing weapon

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<v Speaker 1>that she can use at every turn. It's actually it's

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<v Speaker 1>just a great way to get at people's lives, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean getting in your life. You. So you start your

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<v Speaker 1>podcast right by telling you everybody that you once were

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<v Speaker 1>going to be a musician and that didn't work out

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<v Speaker 1>because you had this horrible injury. But back then, you

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<v Speaker 1>weren't were you thinking about You weren't thinking about change

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<v Speaker 1>at that age as an as a cons as an

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<v Speaker 1>abstract concept. You just had to go to about your

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<v Speaker 1>life and do something different. Yeah. I don't think any

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<v Speaker 1>kid is like, oh, and now I'm confronting change. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean maybe the philosophers among us were doing that, but

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<v Speaker 1>I certainly wasn't. I was like, this sucks. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>I was thinking. If I met the musician you way

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<v Speaker 1>back when, when you're a kid, now I was, I

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<v Speaker 1>was interviewing you, would you be recognizable to me? You

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<v Speaker 1>were you basically the same character, but just with a

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<v Speaker 1>violin in your hands. I think I was really the same.

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<v Speaker 1>So when we look back at like childhood videos, a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit unnerving how similar I was back then. I

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<v Speaker 1>think some of the traits I preserved, or like getting

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly excited about things, very passionate about things. I was

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<v Speaker 1>telling my production team that I have had to do

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<v Speaker 1>months of voice therapy over the past few years because

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<v Speaker 1>my doctor diagnosed me is getting so excited when I talk,

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<v Speaker 1>I forget to breathe. This is apparently a medical diagnosis,

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<v Speaker 1>but I've now had to retrain myself to remember to breathe.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think that like exuberance was certainly there when

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<v Speaker 1>I was a kid, but I think I was maybe

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<v Speaker 1>the one thing that I had in childhood that I

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<v Speaker 1>have not retained. Is just an absolute, singular focus on

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<v Speaker 1>a goal. I mean I was so dedicated. Like when

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<v Speaker 1>I think back to being nine, ten eleven, going into

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<v Speaker 1>a room and practicing for five hours, I just can't.

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<v Speaker 1>My brain can't comprehend today having that kind of discipline.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't. I lost it. I stopped cultivating that skill.

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<v Speaker 1>If you could go back and learning what you've learned

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<v Speaker 1>so far, or you know, just taking what you've learned

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<v Speaker 1>as a grown up, including all your behavioral science stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>if you had to go back and consult the young

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<v Speaker 1>you after you get you're told that you're never going

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<v Speaker 1>to play the violin again. Yeah, is there anything you

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<v Speaker 1>would have told the young you? Yeah? I would have said,

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<v Speaker 1>stop making long term plans. Hmm. I was an absolute

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<v Speaker 1>I still am. I'm a type A or whatever that means, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I was obsessed with plan making. I wanted to know

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<v Speaker 1>what my life is going to be in two years,

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<v Speaker 1>in four years, in ten years. That persisted through college

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<v Speaker 1>and grad school, and at every point I'm like, I

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<v Speaker 1>just I just need to know what comes next so

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<v Speaker 1>that that traits survive that trauma. It's amazing, it's amazing, Like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I lost this one but like, surely I can control

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<v Speaker 1>everything else. You know, you don't always. You don't learn

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<v Speaker 1>the valuable lesson that your controls and illusion until I

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<v Speaker 1>think you had a few more experiences with change. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>The next season my podcast is about experts, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>still figuring it out, but there's a fair chance that

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<v Speaker 1>there'll be a show about experts whose expertise is no

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<v Speaker 1>longer of use or valued in anyway. That they go

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<v Speaker 1>from being you know, prized or at least used to

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<v Speaker 1>being completely pointless. What do we tell them? Now you're

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<v Speaker 1>a budding expert on how to endure these sort of changes,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you do? Yeah, it's a good question. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean when you first brought up expertise, I was like, Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>that's super relevant in my life because I had this

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<v Speaker 1>expertise I had been building for over ten years, and

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<v Speaker 1>then overnight it became useless. Didn't matter at all that

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<v Speaker 1>I had this dexterity and I could play all these pieces.

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<v Speaker 1>I suddenly couldn't play the violin anymore. I mean, one

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<v Speaker 1>thing I'm learning, Actually, I had this really interesting interview

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<v Speaker 1>with a young guy around my age. He's a cancer researcher.

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<v Speaker 1>His name is Scott. He's a cancer research but he's

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<v Speaker 1>also total health nuts. So we're like, the last ten

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<v Speaker 1>years he's been a vegan and he's been obsessively trying

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<v Speaker 1>to optimize his life span. Okay, intermittent fasting, high intensity,

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<v Speaker 1>interval training, you name it, he's done it. Okay, pours

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<v Speaker 1>turmeric on his food. Okay, turmics should not be poured

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<v Speaker 1>on food. And I'm Indian, so turmeric is like one

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<v Speaker 1>of my spices. That's not how you engage with turmeric.

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<v Speaker 1>But anyway, he said that his worst nightmare was eventually

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<v Speaker 1>becoming deeply ill, and last year, in the middle of coronavirus,

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<v Speaker 1>he gets a stage four cancer diagnosis that overnight leads

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<v Speaker 1>him to have to amputate his right leg. He's had

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<v Speaker 1>three or four surgery since then, including removing vertebrae, having

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<v Speaker 1>to do six rounds of chemotherapy, moving to MD Anderson

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<v Speaker 1>for treatments. I mean, it's a gut wrenching story, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's particularly gut wrenching that's against the backdrop of

0:12:57.596 --> 0:13:01.116
<v Speaker 1>someone who spent his entire life trying to avoid this outcome. Right,

0:13:01.916 --> 0:13:05.676
<v Speaker 1>this guy's worst fear comes true and what he was

0:13:05.716 --> 0:13:08.436
<v Speaker 1>marveling about is the fact that today, the day that

0:13:08.476 --> 0:13:11.036
<v Speaker 1>I was doing the Inner You, he more or less

0:13:11.076 --> 0:13:15.956
<v Speaker 1>felt as happy as he had before the diagnosis, really,

0:13:16.236 --> 0:13:20.596
<v Speaker 1>which was stunning to me, because the happiness research does

0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:23.676
<v Speaker 1>show that we are massively resilient in the face of

0:13:23.716 --> 0:13:26.636
<v Speaker 1>adversity and set back, and then when really good things happen,

0:13:26.836 --> 0:13:29.156
<v Speaker 1>we don't stay super happy for a long time at all.

0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:31.996
<v Speaker 1>We immediately go back down to our original set points.

0:13:32.476 --> 0:13:36.676
<v Speaker 1>So I was familiar with this research, but I always

0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:38.796
<v Speaker 1>called bullshit on it. I was like, and I told

0:13:38.836 --> 0:13:41.156
<v Speaker 1>Scott this, I was like, I'm so familiar with this research,

0:13:41.156 --> 0:13:43.236
<v Speaker 1>but I was always like, Okay, I get all of

0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:46.116
<v Speaker 1>you will respond in that way, but I assure you

0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:49.476
<v Speaker 1>that if I went there's experience, no way in hell

0:13:49.596 --> 0:13:53.596
<v Speaker 1>I'm rebounding. But to hear someone who could say to me, Maya,

0:13:53.676 --> 0:13:55.836
<v Speaker 1>I was in your shoes, I'm exactly the same way

0:13:56.316 --> 0:13:59.756
<v Speaker 1>was really heartening. And he said, if I had known

0:13:59.836 --> 0:14:04.076
<v Speaker 1>the way that I would psycholologically respond to this event,

0:14:04.756 --> 0:14:07.476
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't have spent so much time being so fearful

0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:10.276
<v Speaker 1>of it in the first place. And I think there

0:14:10.356 --> 0:14:13.516
<v Speaker 1>is a lesson there for for that episode you're about

0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:17.636
<v Speaker 1>to do, which is like, there are always unexpected almost

0:14:17.716 --> 0:14:20.956
<v Speaker 1>I would call like side effects that happen with change, right,

0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:24.316
<v Speaker 1>things that we can't predict. So, having decided to do

0:14:24.396 --> 0:14:27.596
<v Speaker 1>the podcast on the subject, yeah, are you finding the

0:14:27.636 --> 0:14:30.836
<v Speaker 1>subject exhausting itself? Or do you think that it's kind

0:14:30.836 --> 0:14:33.316
<v Speaker 1>of endless? How long can this go on for? Do

0:14:33.356 --> 0:14:36.876
<v Speaker 1>you think how many permutations on this theme are there? Yeah?

0:14:36.956 --> 0:14:40.276
<v Speaker 1>I was definitely worried when I was conceiving the idea,

0:14:40.556 --> 0:14:44.476
<v Speaker 1>like is this just a season? You know? And my

0:14:44.676 --> 0:14:47.116
<v Speaker 1>guests have proven me wrong, which I think is the

0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:50.036
<v Speaker 1>best way to discover that there's more potential in something.

0:14:50.076 --> 0:14:52.596
<v Speaker 1>It's not from doing your own research, it's not for

0:14:52.716 --> 0:14:56.036
<v Speaker 1>having thoughts in the middle the night. It's from your

0:14:56.196 --> 0:15:00.476
<v Speaker 1>interview subjects teaching you that there are all these facets

0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:03.156
<v Speaker 1>of change that you wouldn't even predict. So my favorite

0:15:03.236 --> 0:15:06.156
<v Speaker 1>kind of interview is when I go in thinking I

0:15:06.276 --> 0:15:09.516
<v Speaker 1>know what a person's change story is, what moment really

0:15:09.596 --> 0:15:12.196
<v Speaker 1>changed them and the reaction they had, and they completely

0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:14.596
<v Speaker 1>proved me wrong and show me that there was this

0:15:14.676 --> 0:15:18.196
<v Speaker 1>other element of the change that was actually superformative. So

0:15:18.236 --> 0:15:20.436
<v Speaker 1>this happened actually just on Friday, So I was interviewing

0:15:20.556 --> 0:15:23.796
<v Speaker 1>Tommy Caldwell, who you might know he is. He's an

0:15:23.836 --> 0:15:26.716
<v Speaker 1>extremely skilled climber. He's considered one of the greatest big

0:15:26.756 --> 0:15:29.316
<v Speaker 1>wall climbers in the world. And he scaled the down Wall,

0:15:29.396 --> 0:15:33.116
<v Speaker 1>which was deemed impossible by just about everyone, and he

0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:36.156
<v Speaker 1>did it with nine freaking fingers because he cut off

0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:39.636
<v Speaker 1>one of his fingers during a wood shopping accident in

0:15:39.716 --> 0:15:43.796
<v Speaker 1>his garage. Okay, so the change story I was most

0:15:43.796 --> 0:15:46.956
<v Speaker 1>interested in and had actually well proceeded losing the finger.

0:15:46.996 --> 0:15:50.516
<v Speaker 1>It happened when he was climbing in Kyrgyzstan, and he

0:15:50.636 --> 0:15:54.996
<v Speaker 1>was held hostage by these captors and for six days

0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:59.556
<v Speaker 1>was under their watch and was basically in a state

0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:03.876
<v Speaker 1>of severe starvation, extremely cold temperatures. They thought they were

0:16:03.916 --> 0:16:06.916
<v Speaker 1>going to die of hypothermia. And they can't converse with

0:16:06.916 --> 0:16:09.436
<v Speaker 1>their captors, right they speak too totally different lang and

0:16:09.436 --> 0:16:12.276
<v Speaker 1>they're trying to plot an escape route. And in the

0:16:12.436 --> 0:16:16.156
<v Speaker 1>end Tommy ends up pushing one of his captors off

0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:19.676
<v Speaker 1>of a cliff and he I think you surprised himself

0:16:19.716 --> 0:16:22.756
<v Speaker 1>because like he's a very kind of like soft timid

0:16:22.796 --> 0:16:25.556
<v Speaker 1>type and he doesn't believe that one should kill and

0:16:25.636 --> 0:16:28.036
<v Speaker 1>so he has to reckon with this event for so

0:16:28.076 --> 0:16:31.556
<v Speaker 1>many years, And so I was probing into that part

0:16:31.556 --> 0:16:33.596
<v Speaker 1>of the story, right, which is like, it seemed like

0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:36.676
<v Speaker 1>you proved yourself, you know, where your actual limits were, right,

0:16:36.676 --> 0:16:39.756
<v Speaker 1>Like you were able to endure this really intense experience.

0:16:40.196 --> 0:16:41.836
<v Speaker 1>But the part that was so interesting to me that

0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:44.396
<v Speaker 1>I didn't even think for a second about until I

0:16:44.436 --> 0:16:47.596
<v Speaker 1>got to the interview, is that the true motivation for him,

0:16:47.636 --> 0:16:51.436
<v Speaker 1>the reason why he's been able to engage in incredible

0:16:51.476 --> 0:16:56.156
<v Speaker 1>feats since Kyrgyzstan, is actually because he's been chasing a

0:16:56.196 --> 0:17:00.876
<v Speaker 1>mental state that he had only experienced once when he

0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:03.676
<v Speaker 1>was in Kyrgyzstan. So it was about four days into

0:17:03.676 --> 0:17:07.876
<v Speaker 1>his captivity where his body I think totally turned went

0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:12.116
<v Speaker 1>from starving an apathetic to survival mode. And he said

0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:16.156
<v Speaker 1>that he felt profound mental clarity and focus in that moment.

0:17:16.196 --> 0:17:19.356
<v Speaker 1>He was in the ultimate flow state. Everything in the

0:17:19.396 --> 0:17:23.156
<v Speaker 1>world was sharp and clear, and he knew exactly what

0:17:23.236 --> 0:17:25.156
<v Speaker 1>he needed to do and how to do it. And

0:17:25.196 --> 0:17:29.516
<v Speaker 1>he said it was so intoxicating that since that day

0:17:29.676 --> 0:17:34.076
<v Speaker 1>he's been chasing that high and has only reached it once.

0:17:34.116 --> 0:17:36.036
<v Speaker 1>He even tried to starve himself once, like on a

0:17:36.076 --> 0:17:37.996
<v Speaker 1>climb to see if he could get back there. Okay,

0:17:38.156 --> 0:17:40.036
<v Speaker 1>he reached it when he was scaling the down wall.

0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:43.436
<v Speaker 1>And I remember telling him, Tommy, if an alien descended

0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.396
<v Speaker 1>on this planet and knew that you would had this

0:17:46.596 --> 0:17:49.556
<v Speaker 1>deeply harrowing experience, and that you were then trying to

0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:52.676
<v Speaker 1>recreate those circumstances in normal life because it was a

0:17:52.756 --> 0:17:55.396
<v Speaker 1>change that you had actually desired, like was something you

0:17:55.396 --> 0:17:57.356
<v Speaker 1>were striving for it. They would think you were insane.

0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:00.836
<v Speaker 1>But that's been the secret sauce to his experience. And again,

0:18:00.996 --> 0:18:03.356
<v Speaker 1>I just love it when a guest teaches me, you know,

0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:05.956
<v Speaker 1>about their story and makes me think about change in

0:18:05.956 --> 0:18:09.236
<v Speaker 1>a totally different way. You know, It's funny because you're

0:18:09.316 --> 0:18:11.636
<v Speaker 1>naturally a performer, right, you were going to be a performer.

0:18:11.676 --> 0:18:13.156
<v Speaker 1>You're going to play the violin, You're gonna be on

0:18:13.156 --> 0:18:15.596
<v Speaker 1>a stage. You've got you've now built a stage, and

0:18:15.596 --> 0:18:19.636
<v Speaker 1>you're on it again, and you're very naturally there. I

0:18:19.996 --> 0:18:22.196
<v Speaker 1>remember when I first met you, when you were giving

0:18:22.236 --> 0:18:23.996
<v Speaker 1>that talk to those people at the Harvard Business School.

0:18:24.196 --> 0:18:27.436
<v Speaker 1>You were so obviously a performer, you were so obviously

0:18:27.516 --> 0:18:30.476
<v Speaker 1>just made to be in front of people talking. And

0:18:31.116 --> 0:18:35.836
<v Speaker 1>so now you're now you're doing it. How is being

0:18:35.876 --> 0:18:39.276
<v Speaker 1>a podcaster changing you? So? I think it is making

0:18:39.316 --> 0:18:42.996
<v Speaker 1>me a much better listener. And I actually don't see

0:18:43.036 --> 0:18:47.036
<v Speaker 1>myself as the performer. I try to approach every interview

0:18:47.076 --> 0:18:50.156
<v Speaker 1>as though I'm giving the guests the stage, right, because

0:18:50.196 --> 0:18:52.716
<v Speaker 1>that's the person whose story I'm trying to shine the

0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:56.876
<v Speaker 1>light on, right, And so my only role is to

0:18:56.916 --> 0:18:59.876
<v Speaker 1>figure out the right questions to ask such that they

0:18:59.996 --> 0:19:04.156
<v Speaker 1>reveal really fascinating things about themselves. I think it's actually

0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:05.956
<v Speaker 1>just wonderful to be on this end of the mic. Right.

0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:08.156
<v Speaker 1>I've done tons of interviews, I've given tons of talks,

0:19:08.676 --> 0:19:12.356
<v Speaker 1>perform so many times as a violinist, right, And in

0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:15.396
<v Speaker 1>many ways, I'm now an audience member. But I'm like

0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:19.156
<v Speaker 1>an audience member who's almost like a music critic a

0:19:19.196 --> 0:19:22.556
<v Speaker 1>little bit, because like she's trying to probe deep and

0:19:22.636 --> 0:19:24.396
<v Speaker 1>try to figure out where some of the cracks are

0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:27.916
<v Speaker 1>and like and dig in there. Right, So you're telling

0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:29.556
<v Speaker 1>me that five years now, when you come over to

0:19:29.556 --> 0:19:33.716
<v Speaker 1>my house for dinner, you're going to be kind of quiet, recessive, shy. Yeah,

0:19:33.756 --> 0:19:34.996
<v Speaker 1>you won't even be able to get a word out

0:19:35.036 --> 0:19:37.236
<v Speaker 1>of me. Yeah, you'll just be there, you're very painful dinner,

0:19:37.276 --> 0:19:39.836
<v Speaker 1>I'll be that. You'll leave these You'll leave awkward silences

0:19:39.876 --> 0:19:42.556
<v Speaker 1>that I have to fill. Yeah, that's so, that's where

0:19:42.596 --> 0:19:46.636
<v Speaker 1>you're going, I'm gonna cut the show off. Yeah, no, no, no,

0:19:46.676 --> 0:19:49.036
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think the other thing it's teaching me

0:19:49.236 --> 0:19:52.276
<v Speaker 1>is like, I don't I don't tend to get like

0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:55.516
<v Speaker 1>any sort of stage fright or anxiety going into an

0:19:55.516 --> 0:19:58.436
<v Speaker 1>interview or a conversation. I think maybe the reason for

0:19:58.476 --> 0:20:00.116
<v Speaker 1>that is that when you're a little kid and you're

0:20:00.116 --> 0:20:02.996
<v Speaker 1>forced to go on stage and play these deeply technical passages,

0:20:03.436 --> 0:20:05.476
<v Speaker 1>when you're then told later in life you simply have

0:20:05.556 --> 0:20:09.236
<v Speaker 1>to talk like speak words, You're like, oh wow, I'll

0:20:09.236 --> 0:20:11.516
<v Speaker 1>sign up for that. That seems a hell of a

0:20:11.516 --> 0:20:14.956
<v Speaker 1>lot easier. And I'm hoping that the fact that I'm

0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:18.636
<v Speaker 1>not approaching the conversations with anxiety is putting my guests

0:20:18.636 --> 0:20:21.676
<v Speaker 1>at peace too, right, letting them feel open and like

0:20:21.716 --> 0:20:24.596
<v Speaker 1>we're really just having a conversation, which is what I'm

0:20:24.636 --> 0:20:27.036
<v Speaker 1>hoping will be the vibe of the show. It's really

0:20:27.076 --> 0:20:30.236
<v Speaker 1>meant to be not superformal. I can be quite a

0:20:30.276 --> 0:20:33.156
<v Speaker 1>reverend at times. That is my actual personality. As you know, right,

0:20:33.276 --> 0:20:36.036
<v Speaker 1>and so I'm hoping at least part of that comes through.

0:20:36.756 --> 0:20:39.316
<v Speaker 1>All right, all right, I'm gonna let you go. Great

0:20:39.316 --> 0:20:41.516
<v Speaker 1>to see you, and let's have dinner again soon. Yeah

0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:53.836
<v Speaker 1>sounds great, Okay. Bye. A Slight Change of Plans is

0:20:53.836 --> 0:20:57.796
<v Speaker 1>created an executive produce by me Maya Shunker. Big thanks

0:20:57.796 --> 0:21:01.796
<v Speaker 1>to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board,

0:21:02.116 --> 0:21:06.756
<v Speaker 1>associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia

0:21:06.836 --> 0:21:11.116
<v Speaker 1>Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior editor Jan Guera, and sound

0:21:11.116 --> 0:21:15.716
<v Speaker 1>design and mixed engineers Ben Taliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks

0:21:15.756 --> 0:21:18.396
<v Speaker 1>also to Luis Gara who wrote our theme song, and

0:21:18.476 --> 0:21:22.236
<v Speaker 1>Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from

0:21:22.236 --> 0:21:26.116
<v Speaker 1>Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks to

0:21:26.196 --> 0:21:29.196
<v Speaker 1>Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans

0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:31.476
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram at doctor Maya Shanker