1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, I'm Maya Shunker, host of the new podcast 2 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:36,996 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans from Pushkin Industries. We have 3 00:00:37,036 --> 00:00:39,476 Speaker 1: an amazing season lined up for you, where I talk 4 00:00:39,516 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 1: with folks who've navigated remarkable changes in their lives. To 5 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 1: help kick things off, I called up my good friend 6 00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:49,836 Speaker 1: and fellow podcast host, Michael Lewis. We talk about the 7 00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:52,716 Speaker 1: inspiration for my show and you'll get a little sneak 8 00:00:52,756 --> 00:01:07,556 Speaker 1: peek of what's to come this season. I am recording, 9 00:01:07,996 --> 00:01:10,076 Speaker 1: and Michael, before we started talking about the podcast, I 10 00:01:10,076 --> 00:01:12,036 Speaker 1: did want to share. I went on memory lane a 11 00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: little bit around our friendship because we've been friends for like, 12 00:01:14,996 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: I don't know, five six years. So I went back 13 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:20,036 Speaker 1: into the Gmail chambers and I found something very fun 14 00:01:20,876 --> 00:01:25,356 Speaker 1: from twenty fifteen. This is after my husband Jimmy and 15 00:01:25,436 --> 00:01:28,596 Speaker 1: I hung out with you at Dick Taylor's birthday party. Okay, 16 00:01:28,636 --> 00:01:30,156 Speaker 1: so we spent like a few days together. So I 17 00:01:30,196 --> 00:01:34,996 Speaker 1: sent you the following email. Dearest Michael, Jimmy, Lee and 18 00:01:35,036 --> 00:01:36,956 Speaker 1: I would like to sign up to be your friend. 19 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:40,356 Speaker 1: I'll work with your agent to complete the relevant paperwork. 20 00:01:40,756 --> 00:01:44,396 Speaker 1: Best May and Jimmy. So, first of all, clearly I 21 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:47,156 Speaker 1: don't know how to play hard to get. But thankfully 22 00:01:47,716 --> 00:01:49,796 Speaker 1: you didn't really enjoy the chase, because you wrote back 23 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 1: right away, Dear Maya, your application has been reviewed by 24 00:01:54,156 --> 00:01:57,876 Speaker 1: our committee. All boxes seem to be checked. We are 25 00:01:57,956 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 1: pleased to inform you of your acceptance. Michael, Yeah, so 26 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:06,276 Speaker 1: that probably again, I have a feeling we share these 27 00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:08,716 Speaker 1: character traits. I have a feeling we both assume that 28 00:02:08,756 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 1: other people would want to be friends with us, and 29 00:02:10,716 --> 00:02:13,476 Speaker 1: so we don't actually aren't very shy about it. When 30 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 1: I met you there, you had no media ambition. You 31 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 1: were an advisor to Obama. How did you even get 32 00:02:19,916 --> 00:02:25,556 Speaker 1: interested in being a podcaster? So during quarantine, I was 33 00:02:25,596 --> 00:02:29,476 Speaker 1: feeling really overwhelmed by all the changes that were happening 34 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:33,156 Speaker 1: around me. I think everybody was feeling really overwhelmed by 35 00:02:33,156 --> 00:02:37,396 Speaker 1: the change happening around them. And I think I realized 36 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:39,556 Speaker 1: because I'm a cognitive scientist, so I was thinking about 37 00:02:39,596 --> 00:02:42,196 Speaker 1: this from the perspective of psychology, right, which is like, 38 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:45,356 Speaker 1: how do we interact with this change thing that just 39 00:02:45,396 --> 00:02:47,196 Speaker 1: happens in our lives whether we like it or not. 40 00:02:47,716 --> 00:02:51,356 Speaker 1: And you know, maybe the specifics of what twenty twenty 41 00:02:51,436 --> 00:02:54,916 Speaker 1: through our way is unprecedented but our human ability to 42 00:02:54,996 --> 00:02:58,196 Speaker 1: navigate change is not. And so maybe if we heard 43 00:02:58,756 --> 00:03:02,796 Speaker 1: stories from people who have experienced extraordinary changes in their lives, 44 00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:06,156 Speaker 1: we could learn something interesting. Right, there's no manual out 45 00:03:06,156 --> 00:03:09,596 Speaker 1: there on how to navigate big life changes. We don't 46 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: know what that process is supposed to look like. There's 47 00:03:11,836 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 1: no science textbook on this. And so I was like, 48 00:03:15,676 --> 00:03:19,036 Speaker 1: let's dig up the most fascinating change stories, changes of 49 00:03:19,036 --> 00:03:21,836 Speaker 1: all kinds, right, and then let's see what we can learn. 50 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,036 Speaker 1: Let's let's see we can change our own minds about change. 51 00:03:25,396 --> 00:03:28,516 Speaker 1: So you started with the subject rather than the ambition. 52 00:03:28,556 --> 00:03:30,076 Speaker 1: You didn't think, Oh, I want to be a podcaster 53 00:03:30,196 --> 00:03:35,076 Speaker 1: unless what should I do it about? Definitely not. That's 54 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:37,676 Speaker 1: just not the directionality that works for my brain. I 55 00:03:37,796 --> 00:03:41,076 Speaker 1: need to have a really fascinating thing to say that 56 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:43,876 Speaker 1: feels interesting to me. It can't be the reverse. Like, 57 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 1: I really I love podcasts, so I love the audio medium. 58 00:03:48,796 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 1: It's super immersive for me, way more immersive than TV. 59 00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:54,036 Speaker 1: So I'm a huge fan of podcasts, but I just 60 00:03:54,076 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 1: never imagine myself having a show of my own. What 61 00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: were your favorite podcasts? Well, I'm a big Bachelor fan, 62 00:04:01,036 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 1: as you know. Ye, So I absolutely subscribe to all 63 00:04:05,076 --> 00:04:09,516 Speaker 1: the main Bachelor fan podcasts YEP. I like interview shows. 64 00:04:10,676 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 1: I listen of course to like Laurie's Santos Is Happiness Lab. Actually, 65 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 1: let me just pull up my podcast feed right now 66 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:20,036 Speaker 1: and tell you what's on there. Yeah, I mean, I've 67 00:04:20,076 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 1: got the classic ones, so like The Daily Got against 68 00:04:24,796 --> 00:04:28,676 Speaker 1: the Rules, but that seems shameless right now. Revisionist history 69 00:04:29,196 --> 00:04:32,996 Speaker 1: still processing Hidden Brain. How Oh I love How I 70 00:04:33,036 --> 00:04:36,316 Speaker 1: Built This. I actually part of me when I was 71 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 1: thinking about this podcast was like, oh, How I built 72 00:04:38,516 --> 00:04:40,916 Speaker 1: this talks about these elaborate journeys of humans who have 73 00:04:40,996 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 1: built incredible things, and I was like, I kind of 74 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 1: want a version of like How I built this life, 75 00:04:45,996 --> 00:04:48,756 Speaker 1: And so that was part of the inspiration, which was 76 00:04:48,956 --> 00:04:51,156 Speaker 1: people are going through all these changes, and how do 77 00:04:51,236 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: they maneuver and how do they find creative solutions along 78 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:56,676 Speaker 1: the way, and how do they navigate? Have you always 79 00:04:56,676 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: been interested in change? This is kind of come up? 80 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:02,956 Speaker 1: You know? I study change, right, So I study how 81 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 1: and why people change. I study how and why people 82 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:07,996 Speaker 1: make decisions, how they developed their attitudes and beliefs about 83 00:05:08,036 --> 00:05:13,156 Speaker 1: the world. But I never elevated change to an important concept. 84 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:16,636 Speaker 1: Until I was thinking about this podcast. It felt in 85 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:19,036 Speaker 1: twenty twenty like a really big deal to think about, 86 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:24,076 Speaker 1: and I think against the backdrop of such a broken 87 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:30,116 Speaker 1: political society, it felt especially important to figure out how 88 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 1: and why we change in potentially good ways because we 89 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 1: are seeing so many fractures. But yeah, your your observation 90 00:05:37,436 --> 00:05:41,956 Speaker 1: that this is a moment to investigate the phenomenon because 91 00:05:41,996 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 1: of COVID is a really good one, and it's to me, 92 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:47,516 Speaker 1: it's interesting because you can see what's happen. You can 93 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:50,596 Speaker 1: see now as as we start to come out of 94 00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:54,236 Speaker 1: it by fits and starts. But that a lot of 95 00:05:54,236 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 1: people they had to change, and it's hard for them 96 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,916 Speaker 1: all over again because they have to change that they've got. 97 00:06:01,036 --> 00:06:03,596 Speaker 1: They've adapted to some new kind of way of going 98 00:06:03,596 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 1: through the world, and they feel a kind of hesitancy 99 00:06:07,596 --> 00:06:11,276 Speaker 1: about going back to the old ways. So people have 100 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:14,156 Speaker 1: very different attitudes towards it. It's not just one thing 101 00:06:14,196 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 1: for everybody that's exactly right, and it's not one thing 102 00:06:17,476 --> 00:06:19,676 Speaker 1: for everyone over the course of their lives, right right. 103 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:22,076 Speaker 1: I think that's one thing we're finding out is, you know, 104 00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:26,076 Speaker 1: huge childhood trauma with change doesn't necessarily mean that you 105 00:06:26,076 --> 00:06:28,236 Speaker 1: have an aversion to it later on, right, And we 106 00:06:28,276 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: see some of that unfold in some of the stories. Right. 107 00:06:31,116 --> 00:06:33,516 Speaker 1: So give me an example of that. Give me an 108 00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:39,156 Speaker 1: example of someone whose attitude towards change has changed. Yeah. 109 00:06:39,236 --> 00:06:42,996 Speaker 1: So one person I interviewed was Tiffany Hattish. She is 110 00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:48,396 Speaker 1: an incredible comedian. She just won Best Comedy Album at 111 00:06:48,396 --> 00:06:50,716 Speaker 1: the Grammys this year, making her the first black woman 112 00:06:50,756 --> 00:06:53,436 Speaker 1: to win this award since the early eighties when Whoopie 113 00:06:53,436 --> 00:06:57,556 Speaker 1: Goldberg won it. And she had a deeply traumatic childhood. 114 00:06:57,676 --> 00:07:00,716 Speaker 1: When she was eight, her mom had a really terrible 115 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 1: car accident that left her with severe brain damage and 116 00:07:04,876 --> 00:07:10,556 Speaker 1: made her extremely violent and very verbally abusive. And Tiffany's 117 00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:13,476 Speaker 1: having to navigate this new world where this person that 118 00:07:13,516 --> 00:07:17,156 Speaker 1: she loved most in the world is now actively tormenting her. 119 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:20,996 Speaker 1: And so it's a profound change in her life. And 120 00:07:21,076 --> 00:07:26,236 Speaker 1: so what's fascinating about Tiffany's story is that she recognized 121 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:29,116 Speaker 1: early on as a kid that she had this talent 122 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:32,436 Speaker 1: and that was to make people laugh. But rather than 123 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:36,476 Speaker 1: treating it as this recreational hobby, right, the thing that 124 00:07:36,516 --> 00:07:38,516 Speaker 1: she just did, you know, with her friends and whatnot, 125 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:42,596 Speaker 1: she repurposed it into a survival tool, and so she 126 00:07:42,836 --> 00:07:45,036 Speaker 1: uses this over the course of her life. When she's 127 00:07:45,036 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 1: a kid, she tries to make her mom laugh, even 128 00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 1: just for a moment, to distract her from getting hit. 129 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:53,436 Speaker 1: Does it work and it's working. Yes. She goes to school, 130 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to read. She charms her classmates into 131 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 1: letting her copy their homework by making them laugh and 132 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 1: being the class clown. And so she's so traumatized by 133 00:08:04,716 --> 00:08:08,276 Speaker 1: change early in her life, but then slowly realizes that 134 00:08:08,676 --> 00:08:11,636 Speaker 1: she's identified that she has this superpower along the way, 135 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:15,436 Speaker 1: and so now there's an element of her that embraces 136 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 1: change because she realizes that she's got this amazing weapon 137 00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 1: that she can use at every turn. It's actually it's 138 00:08:20,916 --> 00:08:23,316 Speaker 1: just a great way to get at people's lives, I 139 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:26,396 Speaker 1: mean getting in your life. You. So you start your 140 00:08:26,396 --> 00:08:28,276 Speaker 1: podcast right by telling you everybody that you once were 141 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:30,076 Speaker 1: going to be a musician and that didn't work out 142 00:08:30,116 --> 00:08:32,676 Speaker 1: because you had this horrible injury. But back then, you 143 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: weren't were you thinking about You weren't thinking about change 144 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:38,996 Speaker 1: at that age as an as a cons as an 145 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:40,876 Speaker 1: abstract concept. You just had to go to about your 146 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: life and do something different. Yeah. I don't think any 147 00:08:43,276 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 1: kid is like, oh, and now I'm confronting change. I 148 00:08:46,396 --> 00:08:48,796 Speaker 1: mean maybe the philosophers among us were doing that, but 149 00:08:48,836 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 1: I certainly wasn't. I was like, this sucks. That's what 150 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:56,996 Speaker 1: I was thinking. If I met the musician you way 151 00:08:56,996 --> 00:08:58,916 Speaker 1: back when, when you're a kid, now I was, I 152 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: was interviewing you, would you be recognizable to me? You 153 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:04,036 Speaker 1: were you basically the same character, but just with a 154 00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:06,716 Speaker 1: violin in your hands. I think I was really the same. 155 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: So when we look back at like childhood videos, a 156 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:13,036 Speaker 1: little bit unnerving how similar I was back then. I 157 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:16,276 Speaker 1: think some of the traits I preserved, or like getting 158 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 1: incredibly excited about things, very passionate about things. I was 159 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 1: telling my production team that I have had to do 160 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 1: months of voice therapy over the past few years because 161 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 1: my doctor diagnosed me is getting so excited when I talk, 162 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:34,836 Speaker 1: I forget to breathe. This is apparently a medical diagnosis, 163 00:09:35,596 --> 00:09:38,756 Speaker 1: but I've now had to retrain myself to remember to breathe. 164 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:42,116 Speaker 1: So I think that like exuberance was certainly there when 165 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:44,316 Speaker 1: I was a kid, but I think I was maybe 166 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: the one thing that I had in childhood that I 167 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:49,876 Speaker 1: have not retained. Is just an absolute, singular focus on 168 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: a goal. I mean I was so dedicated. Like when 169 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:57,316 Speaker 1: I think back to being nine, ten eleven, going into 170 00:09:57,396 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 1: a room and practicing for five hours, I just can't. 171 00:10:01,436 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 1: My brain can't comprehend today having that kind of discipline. 172 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:08,836 Speaker 1: I don't. I lost it. I stopped cultivating that skill. 173 00:10:10,036 --> 00:10:12,516 Speaker 1: If you could go back and learning what you've learned 174 00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:15,436 Speaker 1: so far, or you know, just taking what you've learned 175 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:18,596 Speaker 1: as a grown up, including all your behavioral science stuff, 176 00:10:18,756 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: if you had to go back and consult the young 177 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:25,476 Speaker 1: you after you get you're told that you're never going 178 00:10:25,516 --> 00:10:28,796 Speaker 1: to play the violin again. Yeah, is there anything you 179 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:32,836 Speaker 1: would have told the young you? Yeah? I would have said, 180 00:10:33,756 --> 00:10:38,756 Speaker 1: stop making long term plans. Hmm. I was an absolute 181 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 1: I still am. I'm a type A or whatever that means, right. 182 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 1: I was obsessed with plan making. I wanted to know 183 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 1: what my life is going to be in two years, 184 00:10:46,316 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 1: in four years, in ten years. That persisted through college 185 00:10:50,476 --> 00:10:52,396 Speaker 1: and grad school, and at every point I'm like, I 186 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:54,716 Speaker 1: just I just need to know what comes next so 187 00:10:54,756 --> 00:11:00,196 Speaker 1: that that traits survive that trauma. It's amazing, it's amazing, Like, well, 188 00:11:00,196 --> 00:11:02,716 Speaker 1: I lost this one but like, surely I can control 189 00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 1: everything else. You know, you don't always. You don't learn 190 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 1: the valuable lesson that your controls and illusion until I 191 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:11,276 Speaker 1: think you had a few more experiences with change. You know. 192 00:11:11,356 --> 00:11:13,516 Speaker 1: The next season my podcast is about experts, and we're 193 00:11:13,516 --> 00:11:16,396 Speaker 1: still figuring it out, but there's a fair chance that 194 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:21,356 Speaker 1: there'll be a show about experts whose expertise is no 195 00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 1: longer of use or valued in anyway. That they go 196 00:11:24,956 --> 00:11:29,276 Speaker 1: from being you know, prized or at least used to 197 00:11:29,436 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: being completely pointless. What do we tell them? Now you're 198 00:11:34,436 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: a budding expert on how to endure these sort of changes, 199 00:11:37,996 --> 00:11:40,196 Speaker 1: what do you do? Yeah, it's a good question. I 200 00:11:40,196 --> 00:11:42,756 Speaker 1: mean when you first brought up expertise, I was like, Wow, 201 00:11:42,796 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: that's super relevant in my life because I had this 202 00:11:44,876 --> 00:11:48,196 Speaker 1: expertise I had been building for over ten years, and 203 00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:51,476 Speaker 1: then overnight it became useless. Didn't matter at all that 204 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:54,516 Speaker 1: I had this dexterity and I could play all these pieces. 205 00:11:54,676 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: I suddenly couldn't play the violin anymore. I mean, one 206 00:11:57,276 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 1: thing I'm learning, Actually, I had this really interesting interview 207 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: with a young guy around my age. He's a cancer researcher. 208 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 1: His name is Scott. He's a cancer research but he's 209 00:12:07,836 --> 00:12:09,636 Speaker 1: also total health nuts. So we're like, the last ten 210 00:12:09,716 --> 00:12:13,396 Speaker 1: years he's been a vegan and he's been obsessively trying 211 00:12:13,436 --> 00:12:17,916 Speaker 1: to optimize his life span. Okay, intermittent fasting, high intensity, 212 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 1: interval training, you name it, he's done it. Okay, pours 213 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:23,436 Speaker 1: turmeric on his food. Okay, turmics should not be poured 214 00:12:23,436 --> 00:12:25,836 Speaker 1: on food. And I'm Indian, so turmeric is like one 215 00:12:25,876 --> 00:12:27,876 Speaker 1: of my spices. That's not how you engage with turmeric. 216 00:12:27,956 --> 00:12:33,196 Speaker 1: But anyway, he said that his worst nightmare was eventually 217 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:37,036 Speaker 1: becoming deeply ill, and last year, in the middle of coronavirus, 218 00:12:37,076 --> 00:12:40,836 Speaker 1: he gets a stage four cancer diagnosis that overnight leads 219 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:43,796 Speaker 1: him to have to amputate his right leg. He's had 220 00:12:43,916 --> 00:12:46,916 Speaker 1: three or four surgery since then, including removing vertebrae, having 221 00:12:46,996 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 1: to do six rounds of chemotherapy, moving to MD Anderson 222 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 1: for treatments. I mean, it's a gut wrenching story, and 223 00:12:54,636 --> 00:12:57,556 Speaker 1: it's it's particularly gut wrenching that's against the backdrop of 224 00:12:57,596 --> 00:13:01,116 Speaker 1: someone who spent his entire life trying to avoid this outcome. Right, 225 00:13:01,916 --> 00:13:05,676 Speaker 1: this guy's worst fear comes true and what he was 226 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 1: marveling about is the fact that today, the day that 227 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 1: I was doing the Inner You, he more or less 228 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:15,956 Speaker 1: felt as happy as he had before the diagnosis, really, 229 00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 1: which was stunning to me, because the happiness research does 230 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:23,676 Speaker 1: show that we are massively resilient in the face of 231 00:13:23,716 --> 00:13:26,636 Speaker 1: adversity and set back, and then when really good things happen, 232 00:13:26,836 --> 00:13:29,156 Speaker 1: we don't stay super happy for a long time at all. 233 00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 1: We immediately go back down to our original set points. 234 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:36,676 Speaker 1: So I was familiar with this research, but I always 235 00:13:36,716 --> 00:13:38,796 Speaker 1: called bullshit on it. I was like, and I told 236 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: Scott this, I was like, I'm so familiar with this research, 237 00:13:41,156 --> 00:13:43,236 Speaker 1: but I was always like, Okay, I get all of 238 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 1: you will respond in that way, but I assure you 239 00:13:46,156 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 1: that if I went there's experience, no way in hell 240 00:13:49,596 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 1: I'm rebounding. But to hear someone who could say to me, Maya, 241 00:13:53,676 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 1: I was in your shoes, I'm exactly the same way 242 00:13:56,316 --> 00:13:59,756 Speaker 1: was really heartening. And he said, if I had known 243 00:13:59,836 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: the way that I would psycholologically respond to this event, 244 00:14:04,756 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have spent so much time being so fearful 245 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 1: of it in the first place. And I think there 246 00:14:10,356 --> 00:14:13,516 Speaker 1: is a lesson there for for that episode you're about 247 00:14:13,516 --> 00:14:17,636 Speaker 1: to do, which is like, there are always unexpected almost 248 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:20,956 Speaker 1: I would call like side effects that happen with change, right, 249 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:24,316 Speaker 1: things that we can't predict. So, having decided to do 250 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:27,596 Speaker 1: the podcast on the subject, yeah, are you finding the 251 00:14:27,636 --> 00:14:30,836 Speaker 1: subject exhausting itself? Or do you think that it's kind 252 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 1: of endless? How long can this go on for? Do 253 00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 1: you think how many permutations on this theme are there? Yeah? 254 00:14:36,956 --> 00:14:40,276 Speaker 1: I was definitely worried when I was conceiving the idea, 255 00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:44,476 Speaker 1: like is this just a season? You know? And my 256 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 1: guests have proven me wrong, which I think is the 257 00:14:47,156 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 1: best way to discover that there's more potential in something. 258 00:14:50,076 --> 00:14:52,596 Speaker 1: It's not from doing your own research, it's not for 259 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:56,036 Speaker 1: having thoughts in the middle the night. It's from your 260 00:14:56,196 --> 00:15:00,476 Speaker 1: interview subjects teaching you that there are all these facets 261 00:15:00,476 --> 00:15:03,156 Speaker 1: of change that you wouldn't even predict. So my favorite 262 00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:06,156 Speaker 1: kind of interview is when I go in thinking I 263 00:15:06,276 --> 00:15:09,516 Speaker 1: know what a person's change story is, what moment really 264 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:12,196 Speaker 1: changed them and the reaction they had, and they completely 265 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:14,596 Speaker 1: proved me wrong and show me that there was this 266 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:18,196 Speaker 1: other element of the change that was actually superformative. So 267 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:20,436 Speaker 1: this happened actually just on Friday, So I was interviewing 268 00:15:20,556 --> 00:15:23,796 Speaker 1: Tommy Caldwell, who you might know he is. He's an 269 00:15:23,836 --> 00:15:26,716 Speaker 1: extremely skilled climber. He's considered one of the greatest big 270 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:29,316 Speaker 1: wall climbers in the world. And he scaled the down Wall, 271 00:15:29,396 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 1: which was deemed impossible by just about everyone, and he 272 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:36,156 Speaker 1: did it with nine freaking fingers because he cut off 273 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 1: one of his fingers during a wood shopping accident in 274 00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:43,796 Speaker 1: his garage. Okay, so the change story I was most 275 00:15:43,796 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: interested in and had actually well proceeded losing the finger. 276 00:15:46,996 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 1: It happened when he was climbing in Kyrgyzstan, and he 277 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 1: was held hostage by these captors and for six days 278 00:15:55,396 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 1: was under their watch and was basically in a state 279 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 1: of severe starvation, extremely cold temperatures. They thought they were 280 00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:06,916 Speaker 1: going to die of hypothermia. And they can't converse with 281 00:16:06,916 --> 00:16:09,436 Speaker 1: their captors, right they speak too totally different lang and 282 00:16:09,436 --> 00:16:12,276 Speaker 1: they're trying to plot an escape route. And in the 283 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:16,156 Speaker 1: end Tommy ends up pushing one of his captors off 284 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:19,676 Speaker 1: of a cliff and he I think you surprised himself 285 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:22,756 Speaker 1: because like he's a very kind of like soft timid 286 00:16:22,796 --> 00:16:25,556 Speaker 1: type and he doesn't believe that one should kill and 287 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:28,036 Speaker 1: so he has to reckon with this event for so 288 00:16:28,076 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 1: many years, And so I was probing into that part 289 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 1: of the story, right, which is like, it seemed like 290 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:36,676 Speaker 1: you proved yourself, you know, where your actual limits were, right, 291 00:16:36,676 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 1: Like you were able to endure this really intense experience. 292 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:41,836 Speaker 1: But the part that was so interesting to me that 293 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:44,396 Speaker 1: I didn't even think for a second about until I 294 00:16:44,436 --> 00:16:47,596 Speaker 1: got to the interview, is that the true motivation for him, 295 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:51,436 Speaker 1: the reason why he's been able to engage in incredible 296 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 1: feats since Kyrgyzstan, is actually because he's been chasing a 297 00:16:56,196 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: mental state that he had only experienced once when he 298 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:03,676 Speaker 1: was in Kyrgyzstan. So it was about four days into 299 00:17:03,676 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 1: his captivity where his body I think totally turned went 300 00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:12,116 Speaker 1: from starving an apathetic to survival mode. And he said 301 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 1: that he felt profound mental clarity and focus in that moment. 302 00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:19,356 Speaker 1: He was in the ultimate flow state. Everything in the 303 00:17:19,396 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 1: world was sharp and clear, and he knew exactly what 304 00:17:23,236 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 1: he needed to do and how to do it. And 305 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 1: he said it was so intoxicating that since that day 306 00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:34,076 Speaker 1: he's been chasing that high and has only reached it once. 307 00:17:34,116 --> 00:17:36,036 Speaker 1: He even tried to starve himself once, like on a 308 00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 1: climb to see if he could get back there. Okay, 309 00:17:38,156 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 1: he reached it when he was scaling the down wall. 310 00:17:40,356 --> 00:17:43,436 Speaker 1: And I remember telling him, Tommy, if an alien descended 311 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 1: on this planet and knew that you would had this 312 00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: deeply harrowing experience, and that you were then trying to 313 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:52,676 Speaker 1: recreate those circumstances in normal life because it was a 314 00:17:52,756 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 1: change that you had actually desired, like was something you 315 00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:57,356 Speaker 1: were striving for it. They would think you were insane. 316 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 1: But that's been the secret sauce to his experience. And again, 317 00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 1: I just love it when a guest teaches me, you know, 318 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: about their story and makes me think about change in 319 00:18:05,956 --> 00:18:09,236 Speaker 1: a totally different way. You know, It's funny because you're 320 00:18:09,316 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 1: naturally a performer, right, you were going to be a performer. 321 00:18:11,676 --> 00:18:13,156 Speaker 1: You're going to play the violin, You're gonna be on 322 00:18:13,156 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 1: a stage. You've got you've now built a stage, and 323 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:19,636 Speaker 1: you're on it again, and you're very naturally there. I 324 00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:22,196 Speaker 1: remember when I first met you, when you were giving 325 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:23,996 Speaker 1: that talk to those people at the Harvard Business School. 326 00:18:24,196 --> 00:18:27,436 Speaker 1: You were so obviously a performer, you were so obviously 327 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 1: just made to be in front of people talking. And 328 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 1: so now you're now you're doing it. How is being 329 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:39,276 Speaker 1: a podcaster changing you? So? I think it is making 330 00:18:39,316 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 1: me a much better listener. And I actually don't see 331 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:47,036 Speaker 1: myself as the performer. I try to approach every interview 332 00:18:47,076 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: as though I'm giving the guests the stage, right, because 333 00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:52,716 Speaker 1: that's the person whose story I'm trying to shine the 334 00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:56,876 Speaker 1: light on, right, And so my only role is to 335 00:18:56,916 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 1: figure out the right questions to ask such that they 336 00:18:59,996 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 1: reveal really fascinating things about themselves. I think it's actually 337 00:19:04,156 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 1: just wonderful to be on this end of the mic. Right. 338 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:08,156 Speaker 1: I've done tons of interviews, I've given tons of talks, 339 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:12,356 Speaker 1: perform so many times as a violinist, right, And in 340 00:19:12,396 --> 00:19:15,396 Speaker 1: many ways, I'm now an audience member. But I'm like 341 00:19:15,436 --> 00:19:19,156 Speaker 1: an audience member who's almost like a music critic a 342 00:19:19,196 --> 00:19:22,556 Speaker 1: little bit, because like she's trying to probe deep and 343 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 1: try to figure out where some of the cracks are 344 00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:27,916 Speaker 1: and like and dig in there. Right, So you're telling 345 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:29,556 Speaker 1: me that five years now, when you come over to 346 00:19:29,556 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 1: my house for dinner, you're going to be kind of quiet, recessive, shy. Yeah, 347 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:34,996 Speaker 1: you won't even be able to get a word out 348 00:19:35,036 --> 00:19:37,236 Speaker 1: of me. Yeah, you'll just be there, you're very painful dinner, 349 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 1: I'll be that. You'll leave these You'll leave awkward silences 350 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:42,556 Speaker 1: that I have to fill. Yeah, that's so, that's where 351 00:19:42,596 --> 00:19:46,636 Speaker 1: you're going, I'm gonna cut the show off. Yeah, no, no, no, 352 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:49,036 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the other thing it's teaching me 353 00:19:49,236 --> 00:19:52,276 Speaker 1: is like, I don't I don't tend to get like 354 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:55,516 Speaker 1: any sort of stage fright or anxiety going into an 355 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 1: interview or a conversation. I think maybe the reason for 356 00:19:58,476 --> 00:20:00,116 Speaker 1: that is that when you're a little kid and you're 357 00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:02,996 Speaker 1: forced to go on stage and play these deeply technical passages, 358 00:20:03,436 --> 00:20:05,476 Speaker 1: when you're then told later in life you simply have 359 00:20:05,556 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: to talk like speak words, You're like, oh wow, I'll 360 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 1: sign up for that. That seems a hell of a 361 00:20:11,516 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 1: lot easier. And I'm hoping that the fact that I'm 362 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 1: not approaching the conversations with anxiety is putting my guests 363 00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 1: at peace too, right, letting them feel open and like 364 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:24,596 Speaker 1: we're really just having a conversation, which is what I'm 365 00:20:24,636 --> 00:20:27,036 Speaker 1: hoping will be the vibe of the show. It's really 366 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:30,236 Speaker 1: meant to be not superformal. I can be quite a 367 00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 1: reverend at times. That is my actual personality. As you know, right, 368 00:20:33,276 --> 00:20:36,036 Speaker 1: and so I'm hoping at least part of that comes through. 369 00:20:36,756 --> 00:20:39,316 Speaker 1: All right, all right, I'm gonna let you go. Great 370 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:41,516 Speaker 1: to see you, and let's have dinner again soon. Yeah 371 00:20:41,596 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 1: sounds great, Okay. Bye. A Slight Change of Plans is 372 00:20:53,836 --> 00:20:57,796 Speaker 1: created an executive produce by me Maya Shunker. Big thanks 373 00:20:57,796 --> 00:21:01,796 Speaker 1: to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board, 374 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:06,756 Speaker 1: associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia 375 00:21:06,836 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 1: Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior editor Jan Guera, and sound 376 00:21:11,116 --> 00:21:15,716 Speaker 1: design and mixed engineers Ben Taliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks 377 00:21:15,756 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 1: also to Luis Gara who wrote our theme song, and 378 00:21:18,476 --> 00:21:22,236 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from 379 00:21:22,236 --> 00:21:26,116 Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks to 380 00:21:26,196 --> 00:21:29,196 Speaker 1: Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans 381 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:31,476 Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Shanker