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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: Let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Crystal.

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Speaker 2: I had an interesting conversation with Brianna and Joy Gray

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Speaker 2: about third parties and Cornell West. So set it up

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Speaker 2: to the people, what are we about to watch?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so some of the comments that I made about

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Speaker 1: third parties and doctor West's third party bid attracted a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention apparently online, and so Kyle and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to have a longer conversation. He basically shares my

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Speaker 1: view on third party so we wanted to have a

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Speaker 1: longer conversation with someone who's a good friend Briann and

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Speaker 1: Enjoy Gray, who has a very different opinion on this,

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Speaker 1: so we could go through all the things back and forth,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. It's going to be available on Crystal Confront

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Speaker 1: substack if you guys want to subscribe there, you can

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Speaker 1: get the whole thing on Friday this evening. Otherwise, we

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Speaker 1: are going to post this clip now that you can

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Speaker 1: watch and enjoy and take from it whatever you will.

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Speaker 4: Here you go, Welcome everybody to a special edition, i'd say,

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Speaker 4: of Crystal Kyl and Friends. Not only is a Crystal

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Speaker 4: Kyl and Friends, it's also sort of like a dual

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Speaker 4: thing going on. We got Brianna Joy Gray in the

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Speaker 4: house and this will be on her channel as well

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Speaker 4: the Bad Faith Podcast.

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Speaker 5: We'll crossover episode.

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Speaker 4: We'll crossover episode for us. Definitely definitely looking forward to it.

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Speaker 4: So we're going to discuss Cornell West's campaign and everything

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Speaker 4: around that. And I just want everybody in the audience

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Speaker 4: and ocause I don't know if we've said this publicly

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Speaker 4: before that like he's been invited on multiple times and

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Speaker 4: he just hasn't come on yet. And you know, this

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Speaker 4: goes all the way back to when he launched, so

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Speaker 4: he invited him on, he hasn't come on yet. You know,

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Speaker 4: will he eventually? I don't know, you know, it's up

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Speaker 4: to him. Balls in his court.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and we had him on before, he had.

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Speaker 4: Him on before, Yeah, before he announced his campaign. We're

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Speaker 4: going back to when the People's Party thing launched. We

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Speaker 4: invited him on all the way back then too, and

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Speaker 4: just haven't heard back or anything. But I just don't

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Speaker 4: want people to think we're debating Cornell West. But like

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Speaker 4: Crystal and Kyle refusing to talk to cornw On West,

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Speaker 4: we'd love to talk to Cornon on West. We want

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Speaker 4: to have him, you know, we'd love to have him

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Speaker 4: on at any point in time to discuss anything and everything.

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Speaker 4: So we're going to discuss his campaign a little bit here,

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Speaker 4: and so I want to lay out what my position

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Speaker 4: is and then bringy. I'll turn it over to you

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Speaker 4: and you can respond to it, and Crystally you can

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Speaker 4: jump in at some point and tell say what you're feeling.

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Speaker 6: We'll go through all the things.

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Speaker 4: So here's my first of all in the Democratic primary,

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Speaker 4: because I'm a registered Democrat in New York, I will

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Speaker 4: be voting for Mary and Williamson. Very happy and proud

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Speaker 4: to say that one of the I'm the chief Mary

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Speaker 4: and Williamson bro out there.

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Speaker 6: I'm leading the.

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Speaker 4: Charge now in New York. I'm in a safe state.

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Speaker 4: So what I vote for Cornell West in New York. Yes,

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Speaker 4: because I have a ninety five percent agreement with him

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Speaker 4: on policy, and I think it would be nice to

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Speaker 4: get the Green Party in a position where if they

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Speaker 4: become more viable because we get ranked choice voting or something,

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Speaker 4: it'd be nice to grow their popularity a little bit.

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Speaker 4: And when we get rain choice voting, I think they

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Speaker 4: kind of automatically become a lot more viable. So I'd

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Speaker 4: like to help out in that process. But if I'm

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Speaker 4: in a swing state and it's Biden versus Trump, I'm

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Speaker 4: at the point now where I don't even think.

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Speaker 6: It's a tough call.

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Speaker 4: I would definitely vote for Biden because either in that situation,

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Speaker 4: even if other people are running, either the Democrat or

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Speaker 4: the Republican is going to win. And in my estimation,

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Speaker 4: Biden has definitely passed what I would describe as my

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Speaker 4: bare minimum purity test. And I think if it's him

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Speaker 4: or Trump, or even him or DeSantis or anybody, he

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Speaker 4: just blows them out of the water. And so I

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Speaker 4: think i'd happily vote for Biden that instance.

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Speaker 7: Your response, So, I similarly was voting for Jill Stein

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Speaker 7: in New York in twenty sixteen. I did the same,

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Speaker 7: and I also happen to believe that strategically, it makes

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Speaker 7: the most sense to apply pressure to the Democratic Party

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Speaker 7: by voting for not Biden in a primary Marian Williamson

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Speaker 7: is obviously the most progressive candidate in the primary, and

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Speaker 7: then vote for Cornell Lesson in the general. And I

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Speaker 7: know there are a lot of people in my audience

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Speaker 7: who are frustrated by that plan because they think that

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Speaker 7: it takes something away from Cornell West's run, or it

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Speaker 7: affirms the Democratic Party in some way to vote for

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Speaker 7: Mary and Williamson running as a Democrat. I don't feel

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Speaker 7: that way. I feel it's a little hypocritical to have

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Speaker 7: that position, given that we all just enthusiastically voted for

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Speaker 7: Bernie twice in the primary the last two rounds. You

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Speaker 7: can make a distinction saying that Bernie was an independent

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Speaker 7: and he always identified as an independent, and Maryon Williamson

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Speaker 7: doesn't have that kind of cloak of distance from the

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Speaker 7: Democratic Party. You can say what you want. I don't

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Speaker 7: see those things as mutually exclusive in the least, so

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Speaker 7: that is also my plan. I differ from you only

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Speaker 7: in so far as that I would say it's a

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Speaker 7: more difficult choice in a swing state to decide what

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Speaker 7: you're going to do. But I frankly respect people who

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Speaker 7: feel comfortable. It has not been something that I have

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Speaker 7: to contend with, but I respect people who feel comfortable

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Speaker 7: voting third party, even in swing states. The reason is this,

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Speaker 7: and it goes back to that early bad faith viral

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Speaker 7: Noom Chomsky interview and which I asked him about a

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Speaker 7: month before the twenty twenty race. Look, I said, I

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Speaker 7: take your point. Let's say Trump is an existential threat.

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Speaker 7: Let's say that he's a unique threat among all Republican candidates.

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Speaker 7: My concern is that every year, because we all vote

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Speaker 7: for blue no matter who, because most Democrats vote blue

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Speaker 7: no matter who, are most left leaning people do, the

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Speaker 7: message that gets sent out is that Democrats don't have

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Speaker 7: a bar. You can go as low as you want,

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Speaker 7: as close to the Democratic Party as you have Republican

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Speaker 7: Party as you want, and there's a ratchet to the

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Speaker 7: right effect. And Republicans know that they can keep being

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Speaker 7: more and more extreme. And so I want you to

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Speaker 7: explain to me what you predict to be the stopping point,

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Speaker 7: which we're no longer to. We're no longer saying this

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Speaker 7: new Republican is the worst that has ever happened. This

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Speaker 7: new Republican is the worst that has ever happened. Tell

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Speaker 7: me you're not going to be saying the same thing

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Speaker 7: about Ron DeSantis or a big Ramaswami or whatever other

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Speaker 7: person comes down the pike. And he was unable, in

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Speaker 7: my subjective view, to respond credibly to that claim. So

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Speaker 7: if somebody could could tell me strategically what the stopping

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Speaker 7: point is going to be of making this argument of

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Speaker 7: the lesser of two evils, I would be open to

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Speaker 7: the idea that, Okay, this is the last one Donald Trump, Fine,

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Speaker 7: he'd tried to steal the election. Fine, that is a

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Speaker 7: new line that he has crossed. But absent and acknowledgement

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Speaker 7: that we are creating our own destiny by lowering the

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Speaker 7: bar in these ways, I'm not comfortable coming out and

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Speaker 7: criticizing anybody who no longer wants to be complicit in

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Speaker 7: that kind of a system that's enabled the Democratic Party

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Speaker 7: to not have a primary, treat Mary and Williamson as

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Speaker 7: bad as badly as they've treated her, treat Bernie Sanders

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Speaker 7: as badly as they treated him, and openly come out

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Speaker 7: and say and say they don't have to hold a free,

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Speaker 7: fair election, the DNC argue that in court.

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Speaker 1: You know, so let me explain a little bit of

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Speaker 1: my position. I think that'll help respond to some of

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Speaker 1: what you said there. And I'm also curious to dig

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Speaker 1: in a little bit more to your analysis of how

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration has actually been in reality. So, last

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Speaker 1: election in twenty twenty, I did live in a swing state.

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Speaker 1: I lived in Virginia, still live in Virginia, registered in Virginia,

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Speaker 1: and it did not feel good to vote for Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: But I decided to vote for Joe Biden, which is

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Speaker 1: something I said publicly at the time. But I said

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Speaker 1: something very similar to you, which is like, listen, this

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Speaker 1: was not easy for me. If you wherever you live,

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Speaker 1: swing state, not swing state, et cetera, you do whatever

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Speaker 1: you analyze is the right thing to do. And the

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Speaker 1: reason that I voted for him, primarily at that time,

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Speaker 1: even though I thought he had an atrocious record in

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Speaker 1: the Senate, even though you know, complicit in the Iraq War,

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Speaker 1: complicit and bad trade deals, complicit, like terrible things on crime,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff, right, the primary reason I voted for

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Speaker 1: him was because of the National Labor Relations Board and

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Speaker 1: because labor politics and building out union power in this country,

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Speaker 1: to me is one of the most important goals and

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Speaker 1: something that I think we all share and leftists generally believe.

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Speaker 1: Now in retrospect, not only do I feel good about

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Speaker 1: that vote, he's actually surprised me. Now, I've got all

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Speaker 1: kinds of issues right on the National Labor Relations Board

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Speaker 1: though specifically, they just issued a ruling which could be

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Speaker 1: a complete game changer for unions, And just to explain

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Speaker 1: to people a little bit, basically, in the past, bosses

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Speaker 1: could union bust with impunity, no accountability. Now the process

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Speaker 1: going forward is completely changed. If bosses are caught union busting,

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Speaker 1: then that's it. There's no more election, it's canceled. They

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Speaker 1: have to recognize the union and start bargaining with them.

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Speaker 1: That's the biggest shift in labor relations we've had in

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Speaker 1: our lifetime. So that's why at this point I'm not

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Speaker 1: only you know it's likely to I'm a Merryan supporter

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Speaker 1: as well, but we can all see the most likely

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Speaker 1: outcome is it's going to be Trump versus Biden. Not

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Speaker 1: only would I say that protecting the Biden National Labor

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Speaker 1: Relations Board isn't important enough for me to vote for

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden, but it is important enough that I would

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Speaker 1: actively encourage.

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Speaker 5: But I'm not going to shame them for whatever they

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Speaker 5: decide to do.

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Speaker 1: But I would actively encourage people who are in a

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Speaker 1: swing state to vote for Joe Biden, if for no

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Speaker 1: other reason than to protect that board.

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Speaker 7: So I think that's a perfectly defensible position. And I

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Speaker 7: had this conversation on my podcast in the last episode,

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Speaker 7: and there are people who would characterize that position as

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Speaker 7: I mean, you've heard the thing, you've been on the internet,

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Speaker 7: you know, being too credulous about Biden, or you know,

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Speaker 7: being too comfortable in one's own position in life and

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Speaker 7: not needing enough change and being happy with the status

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Speaker 7: called people say things like that, I think, I think,

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Speaker 7: actually that if your priority, if you believe the path

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Speaker 7: to meaningful change is going to primarily come through a

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Speaker 7: kind of I don't say this dismissively, but a kind

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Speaker 7: of labor incrementalism, meaning there are meaningful labor gains that happen,

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Speaker 7: but are not the type of which would radically transform

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Speaker 7: the system the way that some people want to happen

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Speaker 7: in a shorter term, and the way that some people

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Speaker 7: might argue Bernie Sanders represented his movements as the goal

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Speaker 7: of being Then that's a defensible position. But I also

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Speaker 7: I have to hold space for the reality that there

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Speaker 7: are people for whom, even as significant as those labor

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Speaker 7: gains are, it's simply insufficient. And what they see when

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Speaker 7: they look at the trajectory of the last fifty sixty

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Speaker 7: years of Democratic Party politics, when they look when they

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Speaker 7: read Listen Liberal and see the longer game, the Democratic

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Speaker 7: Party making a concerted choice to back away from labor

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Speaker 7: in a way that has gone on for decades. It

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Speaker 7: isn't necessarily turning around as a consequence of Joe Biden

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Speaker 7: having some good NLRB appointments.

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Speaker 6: And it's so let me actually and then I want

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Speaker 6: to jump into it.

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Speaker 1: So Number one, I don't think that in like massively

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Speaker 1: increasing union density, I actually don't see that as incremental change.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the chart of the

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Speaker 1: decline in the middle class and the decline of union density,

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Speaker 1: it you'd be hard pressed to find a more significant factor.

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Speaker 7: I've but I've made these arguments as well.

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Speaker 1: But the other piece is I feel like those same

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Speaker 1: pieceeople who are right about the Democratic Party, they were

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Speaker 1: right about the analysis and listen liberal right about the

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Speaker 1: fact that you had, you know, this free trade bipartisan

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Speaker 1: consensus and in large part, a union busting bipartisan consensus. Also,

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Speaker 1: don't acknowledge that there actually has been a notable shift

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Speaker 1: in the Biden administration. Now, my big issue with the

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Speaker 1: Biden ministry. I mean, there's a million of them right

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Speaker 1: on foreign policy, I've got problems, But my biggest issue

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Speaker 1: economically with the Biden administration is the way they've allowed

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Speaker 1: the pandemic relief, the short term panic demic relief programs

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Speaker 1: to fall away and leave a lot of ordinary Americans

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Speaker 1: more in a more precarious financial position now than they

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Speaker 1: were at the beginning of the administration.

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Speaker 5: And that's not nothing.

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Speaker 1: But when I look at the long term, when I

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Speaker 1: look at the fact that listen, with the Inflation Reduction Act,

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Speaker 1: with the Chips Act, with Infrastructure Investment, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: industrial policy in a way that would have been completely

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Speaker 1: unheard of in the Clinton Obama era. When you look

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Speaker 1: at not just the NLRB, which I said is like

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Speaker 1: the core for me, but also his anti trust appointments

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Speaker 1: and the fact they're really trying to reverse decades of

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Speaker 1: neoliberal attack on any sort of trust busting. I feel

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Speaker 1: like none of those improvements that have made Biden on

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Speaker 1: that front way better than Obama, way better than Clinton.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like there's no willingness to acknowledge any

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Speaker 1: of that whatsoever.

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Speaker 7: I don't think the issue is acknowledging it. It's how

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Speaker 7: much it matters to you, how weighty that is to you,

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Speaker 7: and how much you see those kind of meaningful, find

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Speaker 7: common meaningful improvements as really core to the nature of

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Speaker 7: the project that you're on. And I think that what

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Speaker 7: some people are frustrated by is that this went from

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Speaker 7: feeling like, in both left media and left politics, a

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Speaker 7: bigger revolutionary project that was going to the core of

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Speaker 7: our capitalist system and wanting to radically change the way

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Speaker 7: that human lives are valued, what we consider to be

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Speaker 7: the nature of our social safety net, what we believe

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Speaker 7: to be the nature of what we consider to be

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Speaker 7: human rights. And they wanted to join a movement that

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Speaker 7: validated what many of us felt intrinsically emotionally for most

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Speaker 7: of our lives, that something in the milk very much

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Speaker 7: wasn't clean. And Bernie came along and articulated that we

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Speaker 7: were it was legitimate for us to be asking for

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Speaker 7: something more, and so at this point it does feel

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Speaker 7: as though there has been a kind of a bait

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Speaker 7: and switch. It's not that what you're describing isn't true

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Speaker 7: or legitimate. And I said this on my podcast. If

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Speaker 7: your priorities are what you have kind of articulated your

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Speaker 7: priorities as being I think it's a perfectly legitimate argument,

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Speaker 7: but I have to hold space for the fact that

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Speaker 7: for many people it simply is inadequate.

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Speaker 6: Wait can I respond, h me, let me jump in here.

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Speaker 4: So my issue is that many people on the left

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Speaker 4: are i would say, dishonestly refusing to acknowledge any good

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Speaker 4: things that were done.

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Speaker 6: We could all on the left.

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Speaker 4: List like, here's the fifty seven things we hate that

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Speaker 4: Biden did, But when something good happens, I'm the only

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Speaker 4: one talking about it, and then I get used to

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Speaker 4: be in a DNC show.

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Speaker 6: Now I'm not like, Look, I'm not blind.

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Speaker 4: I think in order to be intellectually honest, you have

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Speaker 4: to look at here's the good things that happen, here's

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Speaker 4: the bad thing that happen. I'm gonna give them all

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Speaker 4: to you, and then you could judge how much you

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Speaker 4: value each and which one you way more and how

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Speaker 4: that factors into your voting analysis. But I was like

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Speaker 4: the poster boy back in the day, or people viewed

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Speaker 4: me this way as like he's the purity tester. He's

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Speaker 4: like the main purity tester guy. And I didn't vote

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Speaker 4: for Biden in twenty twenty because I didn't think he

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Speaker 4: would pass my purity test. Now at the time people

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Speaker 4: could go back and watch the video. My purity test

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Speaker 4: was super fucking lenient. It was like, if I'm convinced

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Speaker 4: you're gonna do like two or three of the things

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Speaker 4: that I value highly, then I would vote for you,

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Speaker 4: because I know it's basically down to just the Democrat

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Speaker 4: and the Republican no matter how much we want to

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Speaker 4: wish the Green Party or libertarians want to wish the

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Speaker 4: Libertarian Party into existence. And so when I look at

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Speaker 4: the record again, I could list all the bad things.

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Speaker 4: But you just mentioned the NLRB raising overtime pay, or

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Speaker 4: you mentioned the thing where you know they automatically recognize

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Speaker 4: the union if the bosses try to bust it up.

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Speaker 4: There's also the overtime pay rule, where now it's not

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Speaker 4: thirty three one thousand dollars, it's about fifty five thousand

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Speaker 4: dollars a year where now you get overtime pay. That's

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Speaker 4: a huge, huge change, student loan debt reduction. And even Biden,

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Speaker 4: even coming back after the Supreme Court tried to slap

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Speaker 4: it down and he said, no, I'm gonna try to

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Speaker 4: do it through the Higher Education Act. Now there's little

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Speaker 4: things we could go after. Oh the interest, right, yes,

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Speaker 4: that's bad. I agree with you on that, but we

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Speaker 4: got to recognize that that is all things considered a

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Speaker 4: step in the right direction. Pulling out of Afghanistan. He

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Speaker 4: actually had the balls to do it, even when the

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Speaker 4: media was shitting on them relentlessly. And I didn't see

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Speaker 4: anybody on the left coming into his defense.

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Speaker 6: At that point. A lot of people have I was like,

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Speaker 6: the only fucking one it was me.

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Speaker 5: I definitely defended him.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well then it's like three people I didn't and

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Speaker 4: all these oh I'm so anti war, anti war. He

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Speaker 4: pulls out of Afghanistan, and it gets it gets messy,

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Speaker 4: because that's what happens when you pull out of bars

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Speaker 4: and all of sudden, oh my god, you know.

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Speaker 7: It's I thought the world good moment for the left.

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Speaker 7: I saw a lot of consensus. Good good on you,

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Speaker 7: because we were we almost resented and kind of were

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Speaker 7: enjoying the extent to which he was getting, you know,

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Speaker 7: dog pilot by the mainstream media, and we were the

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Speaker 7: only ones defending him.

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Speaker 4: So I would quible with that a little bit too

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Speaker 4: much defending him. I really didn't what people.

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Speaker 7: Are responding to. If I can offer this is not

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Speaker 7: the idea that you are accurately describing advancements, good things

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Speaker 7: that Joe Biden is doing. I think you could also

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Speaker 7: say Obama did some good things.

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Speaker 6: No, what Biden is way better than Obama. I your close.

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Speaker 7: That's not the point I'm making. It's not that one

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Speaker 7: is better than the other. You could also sit here

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Speaker 7: and say Obama did good things. Now the way you

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Speaker 7: bristled at me, say Matt, I could say, oh, why

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Speaker 7: want you just acknowledge that Obama did good things? The

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Speaker 7: same with that you're saying that leftist won't acknowledge. They

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Speaker 7: bristle when you acknowledged that Biden did good things. And

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Speaker 7: it's because we have different standards and we're making different

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Speaker 7: kinds of comparisons.

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Speaker 4: That's not my issue because they're not even acknowledging the

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Speaker 4: good things is my point. I at least of forty

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Speaker 4: seven things here, and I've heard nobody talk about any

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Speaker 4: of them.

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Speaker 7: But let me get to the core of this point.

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Speaker 7: The reason that people are frustrated with that kind of

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Speaker 7: analysis is because it's been used for so long by

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Speaker 7: liberals to justify why people shouldn't be asking for more.

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Speaker 7: I'm not saying that that's what you're doing. But if

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Speaker 7: you bring up something like student debt, when the consensus

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Speaker 7: of all the students experts that I've talked to on

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Speaker 7: my podcast, people from the Debt Collective, the Astra tailors

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Speaker 7: of the world, the legal experts I brought on, is

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Speaker 7: that there was a path toward doing this, to canceling

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Speaker 7: all student debt that would not have been steinied by

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Speaker 7: the Supreme Court. The same authority that Donald Trump used

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Speaker 7: to enact the student debt moratorium, which has been ongoing

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Speaker 7: until the beginning of this month for the last three years,

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Speaker 7: was the same authority that he could have canceled all

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Speaker 7: student debt with the stroke of a pin. He chose

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Speaker 7: not to do that because he decided to means test

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Speaker 7: the program. He circulated those documents. I got one of

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Speaker 7: my inbox last August I believe it was to see

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Speaker 7: if you qualify for student debt. It was a very

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Speaker 7: easy form. But when he did that, that sorted the

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Speaker 7: clock for people to be able to challenge it in court,

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Speaker 7: which what six states did. Two of them were successful,

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Speaker 7: and now here we are today. Not only did he

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Speaker 7: decline to do the unstoppable mechanism to actually cancel all

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Speaker 7: student debt, he additionally chose to use a legal authority,

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Speaker 7: which when many legal experts said, was the most vulnerable one.

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Speaker 7: So you're now saying, no, no, no, he could have used

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Speaker 7: the Higher Education Act.

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Speaker 6: He did, he did, He could have.

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Speaker 7: He could have done that in the first instance.

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Speaker 4: But he didn't, and now he tried it again through

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Speaker 4: the Higher Education Act. The idea that it's like it's

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Speaker 4: a conspiracy. He doesn't want to actually cancel it.

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Speaker 8: No.

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Speaker 4: He he appealed the case like four or five times,

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Speaker 4: and then at the end of it, when the Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court said no, you can't do that, he said, fuck you,

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Speaker 4: I can, and he did the Higher Education That's exactly

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Speaker 4: what we wanted him to do. Then he does it

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Speaker 4: and people go, oh, that's not good enough, and it's.

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Speaker 7: Like that's that's ridicule Kyle. What we wanted him to

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Speaker 7: do was first and foremost, just cancel the student No.

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Speaker 6: No, I expected him to do nothing on student debt.

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Speaker 4: This is the point I'm trying to get across to you,

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Speaker 4: is that I expected nothing from Biden and he did

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Speaker 4: way more than I expected.

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Speaker 6: Let me be honest about that.

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Speaker 5: Conversations, we have different expects.

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Speaker 6: Talk about it through my expectations. I'm me.

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Speaker 9: Let me.

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Speaker 1: I want to pivot this conversation a little bit, because

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Speaker 1: what we really have is a tactical does agree. We

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Speaker 1: could quibble about student loan debt, he could quibble about

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Speaker 1: all kinds of aspects of biden administration. All of us

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Speaker 1: would like him to do more. There's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 1: Our political but hold on a second, our political our

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Speaker 1: political aims are ultimately very similar. But I do think

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Speaker 1: the student loan debt example is instructive because it shows

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Speaker 1: what has been effective in terms of securing real gains

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Speaker 1: versus what has been ineffective. Jill Stein running in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: I don't think she was a spoiler, but the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party thinks she was a spoiler. They put that out

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Speaker 1: to the public.

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Speaker 5: So in the.

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Speaker 1: Theory of change where a third party would force all

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Speaker 1: of this revolutionary change on the Democratic Party. That should

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Speaker 1: have worked, but instead it served to allow the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party to basically demonize and dismiss third party efforts, and

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Speaker 1: then they prop up Joe Biden, so that definitely didn't work. However,

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Speaker 1: the fact that Joe Biden had to be on a

438
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Speaker 1: primary debate stage versus Bernie and Marianne and a whole

439
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: lot of Elizabeth Warren, a whole lot of other people

440
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: who were pushing him on student loan debt cancelation forced

441
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: him into a position of doing something when he one

442
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,359
Speaker 1: hundred percent would have done nothing otherwise. And we can

443
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: see that now because you know the fact that they've

444
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 1: basically like blocked any sort of real democratic price process

445
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 1: within the democratic price, Mary has made it possible for

446
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: him to literally promise nothing for this next term thus far.

447
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 1: So you can see how the third party effort was

448
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: not successful in bringing about whatever revolutionary change people want

449
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: to see, and the process that Bernie engaged in and

450
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: that Mary and Williamson is engaging and now was far

451
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 1: more effective in actually delivering results. And that's what I'm

452
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: focused on.

453
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 7: So, first of all, you, I think are both fundamentally

454
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,679
Speaker 7: dramatically overestimating and overstating and giving way too much credit

455
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 7: in the second that you can make your labor point

456
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 7: the student debt point, absolutely not. Joe Biden promised and

457
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 7: coerced people to the polls by saying he was going

458
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 7: to cancel at least ten thousand dollars of everybody's student

459
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 7: loan debt and moreover, cancel all student loan debt for

460
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 7: graduates of HBC used. And he went down to Georgia,

461
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 7: I state that he not only needed to win for

462
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 7: the presidency, but needed to win for the Senate, and

463
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 7: where there are three of the major hbc us in

464
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 7: the United States of America, made that promise, and people

465
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,080
Speaker 7: knocked doors and turned people out to the polls. The

466
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 7: basis of that promise, which he immediately stopped talking about

467
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 7: the second he got elected and renegged upon. He also knew,

468
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,479
Speaker 7: he knew the authority that he had to cancel law

469
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 7: student debt. And I know because all of these student

470
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 7: debt advocates have been talking about how they were directly

471
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 7: liaising with his office and communicating these points, and they

472
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 7: chose to ignore them and do a plan that he

473
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 7: knew could be abstracted. You can say it's it's not

474
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 7: a conspiracy theory, that's conspiracytorial thinking. But it's either a

475
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,159
Speaker 7: conspiracy or as an idiot. Those are the options, and

476
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 7: I'm not especially comfortable and validating either of those things. Now,

477
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 7: you you were saying that you are looking through the

478
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 7: prism of your own perspective.

479
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 4: I was saying I expected nothing from him, like we

480
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 4: all expected nothing from him.

481
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 7: Absolutely not the people that he expect from him.

482
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 4: I expected nothing of Joe Biden. He was the guy

483
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 4: who brought us NAFTA. He's the guy who brought us

484
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 4: the Iraq War. He's the guy who wrote the Patriot,

485
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 4: actor wrote the Wail of him.

486
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 7: When a presidential candidate makes a promise to people and

487
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 7: lies to them in order to get them to go

488
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 7: to the polls, I believe it. It's my job as

489
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 7: a member of independent media to make it clear so

490
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 7: that people don't fall for those kinds of mistakes going forward. People,

491
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 7: if Biden wants to run, is I'm a milk toast

492
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 7: incrementalist who's just better than Trump. He can feel free

493
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 7: to do that all day and night, and then he

494
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 7: would have lived up to the expectations that he set

495
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 7: for himself.

496
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 6: In the context of run campaign Milk Toast, he.

497
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 7: Promised to cancel all student debt for every graduate of

498
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 7: an HBCU and ten thousand dollars to twenty thousand dollars

499
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 7: of student debt for people who earn less than one

500
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 7: hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year. Now, that

501
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 7: might not matter to you, and and I've defended, I defend,

502
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 7: I've offend you guys against claims that you know you

503
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 7: don't care about this stuff because you know you're out

504
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 7: of touch and it doesn't affect you in material. I

505
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 7: think that some of those claims get really silly and

506
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 7: overly personalized. But Biden made a choice to tell forty

507
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 7: four million Americans who have student debt that he was

508
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 7: not only going to not fulfill his promise to them,

509
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 7: but that in the middle of the debt ceiling argument

510
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 7: of a couple of months ago, the one thing that

511
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 7: he was going to bargain away to get the debt

512
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 7: ceiling pass was ending the student loan moratorium. So now

513
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 7: it's not me, I'm not I'm not the one in

514
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 7: control of whoever votes he has to make the case

515
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 7: of those forty four million Americans, who's who's he's starting

516
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 7: their student debta?

517
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 4: Right stronger or weaker than what you expected, because it's

518
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 4: way stronger what I expect nothing from amongst the real.

519
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: Question though, is we all want all of the debt

520
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: to be canceled?

521
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 10: Duh?

522
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course what is going to most What is

523
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: the most likely path to get us there? And honest,

524
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: hold on, but I don't see how Cornell us getting

525
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: five percent of the vote and unintentionally helping to re

526
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: elect Trump that doesn't get us.

527
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 7: There at all? Get into that.

528
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: So whereas if you have a primary contender actually able

529
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 1: face to face to pressure him, we have feed in

530
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: the way that can potentially.

531
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 7: Work armast Cornell.

532
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 5: It doesn't have to be exclusive.

533
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: But do you think that the project defeating Trump is

534
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: worthwhile at all? Because I would turn back on you

535
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: ask the question like where's the bottom of the lesser evil?

536
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 6: Question?

537
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 5: Like where where does that end?

538
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: I would turn it back on you and say, where

539
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: does it become not just a lesser evil, but like, actually, this.

540
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 5: Person is significantly better?

541
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: And I would say that Biden for my disappointments with him,

542
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: for all of the things that I talk about plenty,

543
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: including disappointments on student loan debt, including on the pandemic

544
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: relief that I talked about, including on the real waste,

545
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: all these things, right, Ukraine, At what point, though, do

546
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: you acknowledge that this person is a lot better than

547
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: Donald Trump? And so when you're in this binary choice

548
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: where let's not pretend like Cornell West is going to

549
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: be president of the United States, it is worth making

550
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: the choice in that situation to reelect Joe Biden and

551
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: get the NLRB, and get the antitrust stuff and get

552
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: what is at hand to be gotten in this moment

553
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: and live to fight another day.

554
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 7: So everyone, Crystal, somebody might say, and people did make

555
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 7: this exact argument against Bernie Sanders. Fine, he's on the stage,

556
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 7: but I'm not going to vote for him. I'm not

557
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 7: going to weaken the person who's ultimately obviously going to

558
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 7: be the present United States. I'm gonna why not vote

559
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 7: for Biden in the primaries? Why And it's you're wrinkling

560
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 7: your ball because it's a ridiculous argument. This I completely agree.

561
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 7: I don't see the argument for Marianne and against Cornell West.

562
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 7: They have nothing to do with each other. You can

563
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 7: you can vote for Marianna in a primary. You can

564
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 7: be happy that she's on the debate stage, which obviously

565
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 7: aren't allowing, which is material to this argument. I've got

566
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 7: to say, some people are You're saying, what is the Green.

567
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 9: Party going to do?

568
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 7: The Democratic Party has demonstrated that it won't host a

569
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 7: free and fair and open part.

570
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: I get that, But how does Cornell West getting five

571
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: percent of the vote and helping unintentionally to re elect Trump?

572
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 5: So how does that move us towards our So two things.

573
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 7: One, you said this in the now viral clip that

574
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 7: just framing Cornell West as the spoiler. Looking at those

575
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 7: poles in those polls that you referenced, Biden is losing

576
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 7: in both of them, with or without Cornell West in

577
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 7: the race.

578
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: Now Cornell West makes it worse. I just want to

579
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 1: clarify one thing. I'm not blaming. People are saying like

580
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: it's their fault for Trump getting reelect or whatever. But

581
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: I am saying, we would like it if the way

582
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party responded to Cornell West would be to

583
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: cancel all the student But we know that's not reality.

584
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: So we know that what ought to happen and the

585
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: reality of what will happen are two very different things.

586
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 7: Let's get to the second point. Yeah, you framed the

587
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 7: twenty sixteen votes for Jill Stein and the reaction of

588
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 7: the Democratic Party subsequently as evidence that a concerted movement

589
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 7: effort to withhold one's votes has been proven ineffective. It

590
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 7: is obviously the case, Crystal, that there was not a

591
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 7: concerted effort in twenty sixteen, or any kind of structural

592
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 7: movement to withhold one vote for Hillary Clinton in favor

593
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 7: of Jill Stein. It was just a bunch of us

594
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 7: angry Bernie bros. A very small number, by the way,

595
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 7: because we all know sitting here that more Bernie Sanders

596
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 7: voters in twenty sixteen benthony and vote for Hillary Clinton

597
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 7: than Hillary Clinton voters in two thousand and eight benthony

598
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 7: and voted for Brock Obama. We all know these statistics.

599
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 7: We've been saying them back at neo liberals for the

600
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 7: last five six whatever years. That being said, there was

601
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 7: no argument to control the media narrative and present an

602
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 7: opportunity for actual leverage and change. So there wasn't like

603
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 7: a group. There was no spokesperson, there was no politician.

604
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 7: There was no left media that was saying here, I

605
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 7: have an organized movement, an organized group of people who

606
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 7: are willing to actually change their mind and vote for

607
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 7: the Democratic nominee and exchange of various concessions that didn't exist.

608
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 7: And I'm, by the way, not advocating for it. I

609
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 7: know that some of my friends, like Nathan Robinson, have

610
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 7: said that Cornell West should do exactly that, say that

611
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 7: he'd be willing to drop out and exchange your various concessions.

612
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 7: I think that's better than nothing, and that's more than Frankly,

613
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 7: I love Marianne and I hope she's successful, but that's

614
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 7: more than Marianne is likely to get out of this. However,

615
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 7: that is not even my plant, that my perspective.

616
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

617
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 7: What I am saying, though, is that, knowing that the

618
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 7: Democratic Party is fundamentally not willing to be fair to

619
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 7: rig the election, they're willing to change the order of

620
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 7: the states, they are willing to completely block marian out

621
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 7: of the media, it feels rich to say that running

622
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 7: within the Democratic Party is manifestly and demonstrably more effective

623
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 7: and actually changing the out.

624
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 6: Because of the structural barrier.

625
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 7: Then Cornells, who at very least. You're keeping very dismissive

626
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 7: Kyle about this match.

627
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 4: Well, I've said like two words in the past ten minutes. Okay,

628
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 4: so I'm not being dismissive about anything. I haven't gotten

629
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 4: a fucking worder.

630
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 7: Okay, what's what is it that you're champing.

631
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 4: The structural barriers against running as a third party is

632
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 4: rigged as it is by the DNC against outsider Democrats,

633
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 4: which it definitely is. It's even more rigged against third parties,

634
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 4: which is why they always get like three percent of

635
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 4: the vote.

636
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 6: Literally, Bernie got forty three percent of the vote.

637
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 7: Which is literally why people feel it is a structural

638
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 7: advantage to get someone like Cornell Wes to five percent

639
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 7: of the vote so they can get federal matching funds.

640
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 6: To me as the voter thirty percent as a Democrat,

641
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 6: for me.

642
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 7: As a voter in New York, I'm not interested in

643
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 7: shoring up the Democratic Party.

644
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 6: No, that's him getting his ideas out of it's shoring

645
00:28:59,520 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 6: up Cornell.

646
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 7: I am not a Democrat.

647
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 4: I understand that, that's very clear. But I'm saying that

648
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 4: would shore up Cornell West.

649
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 7: And the people who also don't want to vote for

650
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 7: Joe Biden under any circumstances, are not Democrats, And fundamentally

651
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 7: you can make her argument. I think it's the perfectly

652
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 7: legitimate argument to make two democrats. I think that Democrats

653
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 7: might think that Joe Biden is a manifestly better Democrat

654
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 7: than other Democrats.

655
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: It's not about whether you're a Democrat or a Republican.

656
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: It's about what are your political goals? And I think

657
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: that how you share a lot of the same political

658
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: there's a big one that we do. But hold on

659
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: so I still don't understand. Just lay out for me,

660
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: like what in the ideal scenario happens, and how does

661
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: that constitute any sort of revolutionary change or help to

662
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: further the goals that we largely share.

663
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think, for one, getting federal matching funds for

664
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 7: third party candidates, since I believe third parties are going

665
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 7: to be a much better vehicle to actual meaningful change

666
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 7: in this country than the Democratic Party, is infinitely more

667
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 7: significant a goal.

668
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 5: But the parties having gotten a single electoral vote, and it's.

669
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: True because I mean, look at Rossboro had all the

670
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: money in the world, it didn't matter.

671
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 4: Don't you agree that ran choice voting needs to come first?

672
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 4: That's the important question. Do you agree that if we

673
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 4: get rank choice voting, then yes, overnight third parties become

674
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 4: more viable.

675
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 6: Do we get them? It's they're not viable.

676
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 7: I think that Cornell West, running in a in a

677
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 7: general election where he can, he has been doing this.

678
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 7: He's been talking about raine choice voting interviews, but continuing

679
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 7: to talk about how the onus is on the Democratic

680
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 7: Party to prevent the spoiler effect. He is in a

681
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 7: position now running in a general election. Every time he

682
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 7: goes on TV to say, if you're upset at meet

683
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 7: at being a spoiler, you need to look at the

684
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 7: Democratic Party, who across the country for the last decades,

685
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 7: has been purposefully undermining any ballot measures that effectively put

686
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 7: into effect rank choice voting in Maine, in North Carolina,

687
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 7: the way they attacked Matthew Hoe. I am not the

688
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 7: enemy they are. And that's the burden shifting, the narrative

689
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 7: burden shifting. I think the left should be engaged in

690
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 7: right now to the extent that you think that Cornell

691
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 7: West can ruin Biden's chances. Isn't it Biden's responsibility to

692
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 7: find those votes not among disaffected third partiers who he

693
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 7: doesn't who don't owe him anything anyway, but the tens

694
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 7: of thousands of millions of disaffected Democrats who aren't going

695
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 7: to vote for him. We've all talked about this together.

696
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 7: In Wisconsin in twenty and sixteen, there were eighty eight

697
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 7: thousand registered black voters who voted in twenty twelve who

698
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 7: declined to vote in twenty and sixteen. That's like two

699
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 7: or three times the margin by which Hillary Clinton lost

700
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 7: and Matt stayed alone. And you know, we're sitting here

701
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 7: talking about whether or not Cornell West is going to

702
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 7: pull some third party voters away, but I can the

703
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 7: Democratic Party.

704
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: It's the difference between what I would love to happen

705
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: and the reality that we have experienced now. I mean,

706
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: we've we tried it before in twenty sixteen. It did

707
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: not help what they.

708
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 5: Tried in twenty sixteen, the third party effort.

709
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: Jill Stein was not a spoiler. It is not those

710
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: voters fault who voted for you, like you guys that

711
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: voted for jill Stein, but.

712
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 4: She got blamed and that was further marginalized as a

713
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 4: result of it.

714
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: So I just I don't see the connection. If I did,

715
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: I would love to vote for Cornell West. It would

716
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: feel way better to vote for Cornell West. I share

717
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: his politics almost one hundred percent, but I don't see

718
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: the connection between voting for Cornell West and achieving any

719
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: of the aims. And I see a much more direct

720
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: connection between protecting the Biden Natural Labor Relations Board and

721
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: allowing this little budding, exciting, amazing, potentially transformational labor movement

722
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: to actually grow. Whereas if Trump gets re elected, which

723
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: is listen, it's the fact, based on how the Democratic

724
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: Party is going to respond to Cornell West's election bid,

725
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: it is more likely that Donald Trump gets elected with

726
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: Cornell West in the race, And that to me is

727
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: a massive lust because we know what his record is,

728
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: we know what his National Labor Relations Board we was,

729
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,239
Speaker 1: we know who his labor secretaries were and how they

730
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: were engaged in all this union busting, and so I

731
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: see a much more direct connection between that moving the

732
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: ball in our direction. Then you know, Cornell West getting

733
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: five percent and either his candidacy not really mattering at

734
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: all or being used once again to you know, smear

735
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: the left and marginalize the left and say these are

736
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: just the people that are interested in getting Trump elected, so.

737
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 7: To that second point, I'm gonna be honest, not only

738
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 7: do I not care about arguments of the left is

739
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 7: going to be smeared. I think it's silly because no

740
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 7: matter what we do, the left is going to get smeared.

741
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 7: Burning one Nevada and it was, oh my god, we're

742
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 7: going to decapitate people in Central Park.

743
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 9: You know.

744
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 5: It is?

745
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 7: It is, I think deeply unrealistic to expect that there's

746
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 7: ever going to be a left movement that genuinely challenges

747
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 7: power in this country that's not going to be smeared.

748
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 7: And if you are choosing your political strategy on the

749
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 7: basis of what's going to get you a pad on

750
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 7: the head from MSNBC and I know this, I'm not

751
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 7: That's not what I'm not. I don't mean to mischaracter

752
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 7: raise you, but that is.

753
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: But I'm not saying, listen, that's fine, and I agree

754
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: with you. Left is going to be smeared, But the

755
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: question is what is actually going to.

756
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 7: Move a ball?

757
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 5: And I just don't matter because I don't.

758
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 6: See his policy is all the matters.

759
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: See how Cornell West getting five percent and helping to

760
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: reelect Trump owns up with things going like.

761
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 7: That, Crystal, he doesn't. He gets five percent, and then

762
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 7: the Green Party a third party effort, it gets stronger

763
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 7: and more well funded and more able to compete in

764
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 7: future election.

765
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 4: So we have ranked choice voting, there is no even

766
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 4: one percent viability for them?

767
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 6: Can you admit that? Can you acknowledge that? I think

768
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 6: that it's.

769
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 4: Until we get ranked choice voting, no third party has

770
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 4: any chance in hell?

771
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 6: You agree with that?

772
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 11: Right?

773
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 7: Think has been doing most of the rank Who do

774
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 7: you think.

775
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 6: I can answer? It's a simple one.

776
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 7: Can I answer it in my own time, in my

777
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 7: own words, Kyle, respectfully?

778
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 4: The simple one, the rank choice voting thing. If we

779
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 4: get rank choice voting, may I go around.

780
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 7: I do a lot of podcasts, and I don't know

781
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 7: what's going on right now. It might be the phase

782
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 7: of the moon. We had the double moon last month.

783
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 7: But I'm getting a little frustrated with feeling shut it

784
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 7: down and disrespect it in every single space that I

785
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 7: go into. I gotta say, I promise I won't to

786
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 7: answer your your question. K sit tight, I got it

787
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 7: coming for you.

788
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 6: I'll sit tight.

789
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 7: I who do you think has been doing the bulk

790
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 7: and the best funded ranchoice voting advocacy? In terms of

791
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 7: getting it on ballots and getting a past the United

792
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 7: States of.

793
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 6: America third party voters.

794
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 7: The Libertarian Party, Yeah, because unlike the Green Party, I'm

795
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 7: no like fan of the Libertarian Party, but for obvious reasons,

796
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 7: they were enormously better funded than the Green Party, and they,

797
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 7: as a consequence, have been able to make much greater

798
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 7: gains and actually getting ranked choice voting passed around the country.

799
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 7: What I'm saying is that there's a tangible material benefit

800
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 7: to getting more money for a Green Party, whatever third

801
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 7: party happens to be. But right now all we have

802
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 7: is the Green Party, for obvious reasons, getting them more

803
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 7: money to do the work across the country to advance

804
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 7: third parties ranchoice voting rather is exactly the goal that

805
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 7: you're articulating. So yes, I do see a direct connection

806
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 7: between your goal, your stated goal of getting rankedchoice voting

807
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 7: and voting for the Green Party. You know who's not

808
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 7: going to fight for rank choice voting, the Democratic Party.

809
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 6: Here's my point.

810
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 4: Here's my point there there's not even a one percent

811
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 4: chance or a point one percent chance of Cornell West

812
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 4: winning unless or until we get ranked choice voting.

813
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 6: So I have to be honest.

814
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 4: I feel like it's self disenfranchisement to really like put

815
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 4: all your effort into third parties before we get Raan

816
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 4: Chos putting the car before the horse. In my opinion,

817
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 4: that's my point. And on the issue of Democrats versus Republicans,

818
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 4: we know either the Democrat or the Republican is gonna win.

819
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 4: And clearly we have a disagreement in terms of how

820
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 4: good of a job Joe Biden is doing, because, like

821
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 4: I said, I expected nothing of him, Brianna, I expected

822
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 4: this is the guy who brought the Iraq War and

823
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 4: the Patriot Act in NAFTA, and he's like the poster

824
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 4: child of the conservative, Democrat and the neoliberal. But then

825
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 4: he gets in office and he does all these things

826
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 4: which shock me. He massively reduced the drone war by

827
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 4: over ninety percent. He like I said, pulled out of Afghanistan.

828
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 4: The Supreme Court overturned the EPA's ability to regulate greenhouse

829
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 4: gas emissions, and the Democrats slipped into the ira A

830
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 4: provision that redefines carbon as a pollutant, which then allows

831
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 4: the EPA to start protect in the environment again. If

832
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: we didn't get that, and yes, that was brought to

833
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 4: us by Democrats, we would be beyond fucked on the

834
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 4: issue of climate change. We still are, but we'd be

835
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 4: even more fucked if the EPA couldn't do basic EPA stuff.

836
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 4: We have project labor agreements for hundreds of thousands of

837
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 4: construction workers that came to us from Biden. Fifteen dollar

838
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 4: minimum wage for federal contractors and employees that's from Biden.

839
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 4: Gun and reform with red flag laws, and closing the

840
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 4: Boyfriend LOOPOL those are definitely good things. Katanji Brown Jackson

841
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 4: on the Court, a George Floyd executive order to create

842
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 4: a Registry of abusive cops. We have the Pack Act,

843
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 4: which is healthcare for veterans exposed to toxic burn pitch,

844
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 4: which every single Republican voted against. He added eight hundred

845
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 4: thousand manufacturing jobs. I didn't expect any of these things.

846
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 4: So when I talk about Biden, the way I do

847
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 4: is because none of these things were on the menu

848
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 4: and we got them. So now when I look at

849
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 4: the fact it's either going to be Trump or Biden,

850
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 4: a standard generic Republican or standard generic Democrat, the way

851
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 4: I feel now versus the way I felt in the

852
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 4: past is like, oh, this is definitely way better. If

853
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 4: you asked me in twenty nineteen or twenty twenty, I'd

854
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 4: be like, I don't know, man, flip a coin fifty

855
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 4: two percent. Maybe a Democrat's a little bit better than

856
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 4: a Republican. Now I'm looking at it like it's not

857
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 4: even close. One blows the other out of the water.

858
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 4: And all I care about is the policy. And when

859
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 4: we have all these policies, I mean, we have a

860
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 4: fifteen percent corporate minimum tax rate. Now that is not

861
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 4: something we had previously. You'd have corporations paying nothing in taxes,

862
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 4: or they'd even get a negative tax rate, which is

863
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 4: a subsidy effectively from the taxpayers. These things are not nothing.

864
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: We have a one percent tax on stock buybacks. They're

865
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 4: cracking down a wealthy tax cheese. Like, all these things

866
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,479
Speaker 4: are very good. They're objectively good. So do you agree

867
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: that Biden is better than what we expected on the left?

868
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 7: Maybe you've already said that your expectations on the ground,

869
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 7: and it seems like he's surpassed your expectations. He has

870
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 7: not surpassed mine. I don't know what you want.

871
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 6: Me to say, but he's not better than what you thought.

872
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 7: It's not better than what I thought he really let.

873
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 6: Me know to be better than I did for sure, well.

874
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 7: I expected him to. Well, I didn't really expect him

875
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 7: to fulfill his pan campaign promises. But I'm not going

876
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 7: to pat him on the back when he's so flagrantly

877
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 7: light about them.

878
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 2: Now, there's been a lot of talk by elon Mosk

879
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: about free speech and about how and when to bow

880
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 2: to the wishes of authoritarian governments, censorship and all of that.

881
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: But one case that we definitely wanted to highlight is

882
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: what's happening with Saudi Arabia.

883
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 3: Let's ahead and put this up there on the screen

884
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 3: for people who don't know.

885
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia is a place where Twitter and or x

886
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: I guess is now currently known, is extraordinarily popular, It's

887
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: very important in Saudi society, and currently there is a

888
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: lawsuit going on right now that says that Twitter and

889
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 2: or x is helping Saudi Arabia actually commit grave human

890
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 2: rights abusers against its users, including by disclosing confidential user

891
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: data at the request of Saudi authorities quote at a

892
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 2: much higher rate than it has for the US, UK

893
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: and or Canada. The lawsuit was actually brought last May

894
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: by arij Al Sadhan, the sister of a Saudi worker

895
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 2: who has forcibly disappeared and sentenced to twenty years in prison.

896
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: Surrounds the surrounding infiltration of a California company by three

897
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: Saudi agents, two of whom were posing as employees in

898
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, and led to the erec of

899
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: the brother and the exposure of the quote identity of

900
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: thousands of anonymous Twitter users, some of whom were later

901
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: reportedly detained and tortured as part of the government's crackdown

902
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: on dissent. They have now updated their claim last week

903
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: to include new allegations how Twitter willfully ignored or had

904
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: knowledge of the Saudi government's campaign to ferret out critics,

905
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: but because of financial considerations and efforts to keep close

906
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: ties to the Saudi government, which is a top investor

907
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: in the company, provided assistance to the Kingdom. Now clearly

908
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: what they actually said is that this was under the

909
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: leadership of them chief executive Jack Dorsey. The question though,

910
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: is how Twitter the company will be actually handling this

911
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 2: as we go forward, and especially important in the light

912
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: of what's currently happening right now. Let's put this place

913
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: up there on the screen. A Saudi man has just

914
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: been sentenced to death after his tweets were criticizing the

915
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: country's leadership. Saudi activists say that his tweets and his

916
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: retweets were presented as the evidence of his so called

917
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: crime of insulting the case or the Crown Prince and

918
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: then supporting a terrorist ideology. So what you can see here,

919
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 2: Crystal is the analysis of the case is the guy

920
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: had ten followers and he mostly retweeted posts critical of MBS,

921
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: and now he is being literally sentenced to death. He

922
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: is the father of seven and a retired teacher. There's

923
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: also a question here about how they got his user

924
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 2: information because he ran two anonymous accounts on the site.

925
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: On x he was not a public account. So all

926
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 2: of this is really important around how Elon is going

927
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: to be handling not only such requests, but is he

928
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: going to speak out against what's happening here, against this

929
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: man getting sentenced to death for something he did on

930
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: your platforms completely insane Jesus Christ.

931
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and this is super relevant because put this

932
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: last piece up on the screen. Saudi Prince all will

933
00:41:53,320 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: Lead is Twitter's second largest shareholder. Saudi government officials have

934
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: become incredibly significant in terms of funding Twitter overall, which

935
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: is why you know, always when a government is pressuring

936
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: a social media company to do whatever, that becomes a

937
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: very complicated set of issues for whoever.

938
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 5: Is running that company.

939
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: But when you have a lot of cash involved as well,

940
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: it makes it even more difficult. There's actually a lot

941
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: of layers to this because, first of all, Jack Dorsey,

942
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: one of the areas where he has been critical of

943
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: Elon Musk, including on our show when we interviewed him,

944
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: was about Musk's approach to government requests with regard to

945
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: the platform, and Dorsey had to have tried to have

946
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: more of a consistent at that level sort of free

947
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: speech principle where it wasn't just about okay, what are

948
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: what areever the laws of the land are, That's what

949
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to abide by. Elon has explicitly stated he

950
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: has a different view, which is that whatever is legal

951
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: in that country, whether they have a dictator or whatever

952
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: the situation is, that's what they're going to abide by.

953
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: That's what he used to justify, you know, censorship of

954
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: I Believe, as a BBC documentary about India, about the

955
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: Indian Prime minister. That's what he used to justify the

956
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: censoring of an investigative journalist in Turkey. That's been his

957
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: sort of like Okay, this is my guidelines, this is

958
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: how I operate. So number one, since this happened under

959
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: Jack Dorsey, you can see how even with his stated principles,

960
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: clearly he wasn't always living up to what he was

961
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: claiming he was doing. And number two, you see in

962
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: the case of this man who's being put to death

963
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: because of something he said at Twitter. I mean, this

964
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: is a really dramatic case in point test of the

965
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: Elon Musk principle of like, okay, well, if this is

966
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: legal in Saudi, are you just cool with it? Like

967
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: even when it's you know, people are being rounded up

968
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: and sentenced to death for exercising, you know, the most

969
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: basic understanding of free speech.

970
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 5: Are you still.

971
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: Okay with that if it is technically legal under that jury?

972
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's a poor standard to hold.

973
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: It's a terrible sting, but.

974
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 1: That's exactly what he has articulated to be his guiding principle.

975
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's incredibly dumb.

976
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: Look, this is the problem with owning Twitter, with owning

977
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: or x with having a platform which engages in speech

978
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: and then holding ideals here and trying to balance business

979
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: and all of that. He willingly stepped forward into it

980
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: with a free speech quote absolutist position. So I mean

981
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: you're supposed to abide by that. Just saying you're going

982
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: along with government regulations, I mean then, and you know,

983
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: every dictatorial government on earth will just pass whatever, you know,

984
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: thing that they want you to do, and you're just

985
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 2: going to do it. That's not how we should American

986
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: companies should operate, and if they are well, we should

987
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 2: absolutely change the lot.

988
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 3: In order to make sure that they don't do that.

989
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: So anyways, lots of interesting stuff going on here, but

990
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: first and foremost, just what a ridiculous and barbarous decision

991
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 2: or to slaughter somebody, probably behead them publicly for the

992
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 2: crime of.

993
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: Posting posting anonymously your ten followers.

994
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 5: Unbelievable, unreal.

995
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll see guys later. Hilarious moment.

996
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: In a recent new interview with Trump, he wanted to debate,

997
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: not do the GOP debates somebody else.

998
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: I'm not even going to tease it.

999
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 12: Let's take a lesson ninety million people and the only thing.

1000
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 12: I think that might draw an audience that even approaches

1001
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 12: that would be if you were to sit down with

1002
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 12: the Duchess of Sussex, Megan Markele and Prince Harry. They

1003
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 12: don't like you much, would you do that for the ratings?

1004
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 8: Well, I don't know that that. On nightbe I said

1005
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 8: that I don't think they're very appropriate what they're saying,

1006
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 8: what they're doing. And I didn't like the way she

1007
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 8: dealt with the Queen. I became very friendly with the Queen.

1008
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 8: She was an incredible woman, ninety five. She was so shocked,

1009
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 8: she was one hundred percent. When you watch Biden, you said,

1010
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 8: this is a different planet. But they treated her with

1011
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 8: great disrespect and I didn't like it. And I didn't

1012
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 8: like the idea that they were getting us security when

1013
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 8: they came over here. Now I think it's it's not

1014
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 8: a good situation going on with the two of them,

1015
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 8: But I didn't know that they don't like. Somebody mention

1016
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 8: it might be possible they wouldn't be the only ones.

1017
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 12: But I mean that would get ratings, wouldn't it.

1018
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 8: Oh, if you want to set it up, let's set

1019
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 8: it up. Let's let's go do something. I'd love to

1020
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 8: debate here. I would love it, all right.

1021
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 2: I need this to happen obviously, First I need Trump

1022
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: to do the actual GP debates too. I think it's

1023
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: good democracy, et cetera. But I need to see this debate.

1024
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it would be such great content.

1025
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just there's so much to say. I mean,

1026
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: for me, everyone knows. Look, yes, it's it's true. I

1027
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: can't stand Megan Markle or Prince Harry. I think they're

1028
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: complete narcissists. Of course, the South Park episode on them

1029
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 2: nailed it the whole we want privacy thing. They are

1030
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: so lazy as well. After the revelations about their Spotify deal,

1031
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: where I mean, I just can't imagine that, Crystal, you

1032
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 2: having somebody else sit in for you and do an

1033
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: interview and then come in and record your voice on

1034
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: top of that. That's so crazy when you're getting paid

1035
00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 2: millions of dollars and they were doing this like one

1036
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: a week or something like that for their pod. So anyway,

1037
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: I just thought it was hilarious. It was one of

1038
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: those where it will never happen. I kind of wish

1039
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 2: it would happen. It would be like a throwback to

1040
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: the old days. But Hugh Hewett is not wrong that

1041
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 2: a lot of people would watch it. So they watched

1042
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 2: the interview.

1043
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was such a like random question but up

1044
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 5: getting response.

1045
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1046
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what made him think of that, but

1047
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: it ended up getting an incredible response. I mean, listen,

1048
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to point to make I

1049
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: kind of disagree with you. I don't know that I

1050
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: could handle this thing, like there's just no one to

1051
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: cheer for. It would be facing content, but I just

1052
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: don't know if I could take it. So I'm hoping

1053
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: this remains in the land of fantasy.

1054
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 3: Really, oh no, this would just be incredible.

1055
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it'd be one of those She's so she's

1056
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: got the same thing that Commas got going on that

1057
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 2: like Aaron sorkinesque, like wants to be a world historical figure.

1058
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: My favorite story about Magan Markle was apparently it was

1059
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: during the Child Task Credit or something like that, not

1060
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: Child There was some legislation where she was and she

1061
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: somehow got the individual cell phone numbers for US senators

1062
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 2: and would cold called them and they'd be like hello,

1063
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 2: and they're like, this is Megan Markle. I'd like to

1064
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: and they were like, who, like, what makes you think

1065
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: I care what you think about this legislation literally at all.

1066
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: I just like I don't really care, Like I generally.

1067
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 5: Find them annoying, but like that's as deep as it goes.

1068
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: But there seems to be this deep vein on the

1069
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: right of just absolute hatred, obsessive hatred of these two

1070
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: people who have no real power. There's sort of like

1071
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: cultural media dilettants, and don't I don't really understand it,

1072
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: Like I don't really understand why there's such a thing around.

1073
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: I think that there was the attempt the media creation

1074
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: of like the nart to embrace and to like to

1075
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: embrace and to respect the narcissism fundamentally of Megan Markle

1076
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: and Prince Harry who were trying to destroy a one

1077
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: thousand year old institution just because they.

1078
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: Thought they were better than them.

1079
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, I find that just like you know, as

1080
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 2: a semi traditionalists, like with respect for norms and all that,

1081
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 2: I find that just like deeply offensive. I think that

1082
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff that you can say about

1083
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: the Royal family of legitimate critiques, and I don't think

1084
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: any of theirs was real or it was real really

1085
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: at all, and like.

1086
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: The Trump people are not really known for their like

1087
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: respect for norms.

1088
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: Yes and no, I mean I think that there is

1089
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: like a reverence so to speak for I don't know.

1090
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: I can't explain. I can only tell you why I

1091
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 2: can't stand her. And I think a lot of it

1092
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: is media as well.

1093
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I mean, the car.

1094
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 2: Crash is the most famous thing where I mean people

1095
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 2: credulously you know, looked at it and basically people credulously

1096
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: took them at their word that they were like in

1097
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 2: some harrowing car case or any of these when they're

1098
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: clearly just looking for attention. And I don't know, for me,

1099
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: it's like there are certain figures her, Jesse Smollett and

1100
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 2: others where, you know, just even that temporary willingness to

1101
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: take them seriously just is one of those where I

1102
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 2: cannot stand them. They repel me in such a repugnant

1103
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 2: way that I just, I don't know, I a cheat,

1104
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: and I'm totally willing to admit this.

1105
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: I have Megan derangement syndrome. Yeah, absolute drives me crazy.

1106
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't really, I don't really get it. I

1107
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 5: have to be off. I don't really get it.

1108
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: Which is part of why, like you know, wouldn't be

1109
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: eager to actually see this thing come to fruition because

1110
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: it just would feed into this What I see is

1111
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: like complete sort of obsessive, unhinged relationship with this one

1112
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,439
Speaker 1: random woman.

1113
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: So fair enough, and you know, it would be healthier

1114
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 2: if we could all just forget that she existed, although

1115
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,439
Speaker 2: for her that would be the worst thing.

1116
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 5: That's not what she's looking for.

1117
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 3: We'll see you guys later.

1118
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 8: Hi.

1119
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,959
Speaker 10: I'm Matt Stoler, author of monopoly focused Substack newsletter Big

1120
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 10: and an anti trust policy analyst. Have a great segment

1121
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 10: for you today on this Big Breakdown. It's about the

1122
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 10: first big anti trust trial of the twenty first century,

1123
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 10: which starts next Tuesday, against the search giant Google. I

1124
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 10: want to start with the picture of an octopus. Since

1125
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 10: eighteen ninety there have been a few big Monopoli trials

1126
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 10: that have shaped the biggest corporations in America, So starting

1127
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 10: with Standard Oil around the twentieth the turn of the

1128
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 10: twentieth century. So this is a cartoon of that corporate behemoth.

1129
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 10: You couldee standard Oil written on the top of the

1130
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 10: octopus's head and America. And there's a reason for that,

1131
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 10: Americans have traditionally symbolized with monopoly power as an entity

1132
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 10: with tentacles reaching out everywhere, hence an octopus. It's actually

1133
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 10: still a good metaphor today. So Google, which had which

1134
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 10: is worth almost two trillion dollars in terms of its

1135
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 10: total value, has a lot of tentacles. It knows more

1136
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 10: about most of us than our families because it answers

1137
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 10: intimate questions from billions of people every day. It controls

1138
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 10: much of our communications. To boot, it has ninety five

1139
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 10: percent market share and search annual revenue of a little

1140
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 10: less than three hundred billion dollars a year in fifteen

1141
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 10: products with more than five hundred million users apiece. We've

1142
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 10: perhaps never seen any corporate asset as power full as Google.

1143
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 10: Search marketing professor Scott Galloway in twenty seventeen he went

1144
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 10: so far as to say that quote Google is God. Okay,

1145
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 10: So why is Google on trial and what does this

1146
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 10: trial signify? Well, Google is on trial for violating antitrust law,

1147
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 10: which means, in short, that it has an illegal monopoly.

1148
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,240
Speaker 10: The government argues that Google controls roughly ninety to ninety

1149
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 10: five percent of general search and search advertising, and that

1150
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 10: it has used this remarkable market share monopoly share, using

1151
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 10: illegal tactics to keep rivals out of the market unfairly. Now, Google,

1152
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 10: of course disagrees, but we'll get to the details of

1153
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 10: the case in a bit. But let's ask a different question.

1154
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 10: So does this case really matter? Let's put it in context.

1155
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 10: Don't powerful corporations always win? Doesn't big money always carry

1156
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 10: the day in America? In fact, no. Historically, anti monopoly

1157
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 10: has been the pro business tradition in America, ensuring equality

1158
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 10: in the marketplace. And to understand what that means, it

1159
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 10: helps to look at previous antitrust cases involving the biggest

1160
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 10: corporations in the world at the time that they were held.

1161
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 10: So there have been a few big ones that are

1162
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 10: as historically important as the Google case. So there was

1163
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 10: Standard Oil in the eighteen nineties, Alco in the nineteen forties,

1164
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 10: IBM in the nineteen seventies, EIGHTE and T in the

1165
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 10: nineteen eighties, Microsoft in the nineteen nineties. And these cases

1166
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 10: are almost always against high tech firms that control a

1167
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 10: key sector in the economy, so Oil in the eighteen nineties,

1168
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 10: telecommunications in the nineteen eighties, operating systems in office productivity

1169
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 10: software in the nineteen nineties, win or lose, they determine

1170
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 10: what our society looks like going forward. Now, most people

1171
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 10: think technological progress is due to scientists and engineers figuring

1172
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 10: stuff out and innovating, and it's sort of true, but

1173
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 10: it's also due to law. Want to know why we

1174
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 10: even have the Internet? Well, one reason, and an important one,

1175
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 10: is that in nineteen eighty two, a judge named Harold

1176
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 10: Green ruled to break up AT and T, which had

1177
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 10: historically tried to control its network tightly and probably would

1178
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 10: have tried to block things like dial up modems from

1179
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 10: being attached to its network, and certainly did block a

1180
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 10: lot of stuff prior to the nineteen sixties. So you

1181
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 10: could see a memorial to the AT and T case

1182
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 10: when you walk into the DC Court building, which is

1183
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 10: the same one where a judge named am Meta is

1184
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,439
Speaker 10: hearing the Google trial, so you can see it. There's

1185
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 10: a cartoon on display as a man in a robe

1186
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 10: tangled up in phone courts. That's a cartoon of Harold Green.

1187
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 10: He was an extraordinary man. So he was born in Germany.

1188
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 10: In nineteen twenty three, fled the Nazis, enlisted in the

1189
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 10: US Army during War two and then went to night school.

1190
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 10: After the war, he ended up at the Justice Department,

1191
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 10: where he helped draft the Civil Rights Act and the

1192
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 10: Voting Rights Act, And in nineteen seventy eight Jimmy Carter

1193
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 10: put him on the court as a district judge. That's

1194
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 10: where he heard the AT and T case. Now, so

1195
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 10: Green was no fool, and he was no fan of

1196
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 10: corporate power. He ruled against AT and T and sought

1197
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 10: the goal. Sought to fulfill the goal of quote deconcentrating

1198
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 10: AT and T's vast economic power. The guy had been

1199
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 10: up close with the Nazis. He was not intimidated by

1200
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 10: a large corporation. And the thing about it is, at

1201
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 10: the time there a lot of people said, Oh, this

1202
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 10: is terrible for the country. It's going to hurt this

1203
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 10: great corporation that everybody loves, very innovative Bell Labs. But

1204
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 10: in truth, the breakup really delivered. Telephone rates came down

1205
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 10: for consumers, but far more importantly, there was a massive

1206
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 10: explosion of innovation, including in all likelihood the development of

1207
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 10: the Internet and mobile telephony. The judge in the Google

1208
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 10: in the Google case is named Judge Meta. He's pictured

1209
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 10: here let's take a look. No Meta is now in

1210
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 10: this same position as Judge Green, able to shape a

1211
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 10: future to all of us or just to Google. But

1212
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 10: in contrast to Green, Meta's career tracks very much like

1213
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 10: most of our technocratic elites. Now. He's an immigrant, but

1214
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 10: he grew up in his suburb of Maryland, worked at

1215
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,399
Speaker 10: the big lfew firm Lathan and Watkins for a few

1216
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 10: years of training, he was and then he was a

1217
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 10: public defender in DC, and then he served as a

1218
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 10: white collar defense attorney. Metta doesn't, as far as I

1219
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 10: can tell, how a strong record of recognizing the threat

1220
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 10: of concentrated corporate power or an instinctive skepticism of the powerful.

1221
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 10: And we can already see some problematic choices from Meta,

1222
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 10: and I'm going to focus on Mata. I'm going to

1223
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 10: do a few segments on the Google case. I'm going

1224
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 10: to focus on Meta because judges really go unexamined in

1225
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 10: our culture and it's important to change that. They are

1226
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:35,720
Speaker 10: political actors. So Google executives, including its CEO Sundar Pichai,

1227
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 10: have been found in multiple cases, including this one, of

1228
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 10: destroying evidence related to potential anti trust violations, essentially deleting chatlock.

1229
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 10: So chatlog's involving discussion over antitrust show that quote. Pachai

1230
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 10: personally asked whether a chat group's history could be turned

1231
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 10: off and then attempted to delete that message end quote.

1232
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 10: Now that is that is a big no no. Okay,

1233
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,720
Speaker 10: you are not supposed to destroy chat logs and anti

1234
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 10: trust late related or monopoly related evidence. You just don't

1235
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 10: do that. That's illegal. And in California a judge actually

1236
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 10: sanctioned Google for this behavior. They levied penalties on Google

1237
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 10: and its lawyers. But so far, Judge Meta has not. Now,

1238
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 10: I don't want to overstate the problem. The judge has

1239
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 10: ruled reasonably well in an earlier merger case. He might

1240
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 10: do something about the document destruction, but that's who he is.

1241
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,959
Speaker 10: So that's the judge. Let's go a little more into

1242
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 10: the case, which is all about something called defaults. Right,

1243
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 10: That's how Google controls its market power. At least that's

1244
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 10: what the government argument. The government says that Google's monopoly

1245
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 10: in search is illegal, and it has maintained this monopoly

1246
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 10: not by making a better product if you notice there's

1247
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 10: a lot more ads in Google Search today, but by

1248
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 10: locking down everywhere that consumers might be able to find

1249
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 10: a different search engine option and making sure that they

1250
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 10: only see Google instead. So here's a slide that the

1251
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 10: Department of Justice include in its complaint in twenty twenty.

1252
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 10: So it is the default search engine Google whenever you

1253
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 10: open your phone or whenever you open most browsers. As

1254
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 10: a result, when you use Google, you are giving Google

1255
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 10: some data which it can use to improve its search

1256
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 10: engines and which it's more importantly, its competitors cannot. Now

1257
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 10: the basic claim is that Google has essentially bought up

1258
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 10: all the shelf space where people might find a different

1259
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 10: search engine. It pays forty five billion dollars a year

1260
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 10: to have distributors refuse to carry its competitors products, signing

1261
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 10: deals with Apple, Motorola, Samsung, major US wireless carriers like

1262
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 10: ATTT Mobile, Verizon, browser developers like Mozilla, Opera uce Web

1263
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 10: to secure default status for its general search engine, and

1264
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 10: in many cases to specifically prohibit Google's counterparties from dealing

1265
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 10: with Google's competitors. So that's the case, and the big

1266
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 10: partner here for Google is Apple, which receives something like

1267
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 10: ten to fifteen billion dollars a year for placing Google

1268
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 10: as the default search engine on the iPhone and the Mac.

1269
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 10: And this revenue is really important to Apple. It's basically

1270
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 10: Apple and Google sharing monopoly profits. Apple is fantastically profitable,

1271
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 10: but still fifteen billion dollars is a lot of money.

1272
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 10: And that's just in the US. Now, here's a story

1273
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 10: that came out in the Financial Times in twenty twenty

1274
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 10: when the Apple case was filed. Apple is in fact

1275
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 10: preparing its own search engine in case it's deal with

1276
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 10: Google falls apart due to this case. In other words,

1277
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 10: if the government succeeds, will have more search engines and

1278
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 10: competition in this market, because at least Apple won't enter.

1279
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 10: Now it should be a slam dunk case, and not

1280
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 10: just because Google search has become much worse over the

1281
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 10: last five to ten years, packed increasingly with ads and

1282
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 10: poor results. To understand why this case makes sense, look

1283
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 10: no further than the experience of Niva, a search engine

1284
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 10: whose quality was as high or higher than that of Google,

1285
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 10: but died a few months ago because it just couldn't

1286
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 10: get access to customers. Niva, according to David Pierce in

1287
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 10: The Verge, was running an aproduct. So that's the most

1288
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 10: innovative that artificial intelligence a full stack search engine and

1289
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 10: a privacy first browser. If people went through all the

1290
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 10: bother of switching, they became converts. Pierce wrote. The problem

1291
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 10: was that very few of them managed to make it

1292
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 10: past the thicket of default settings and redirections. Now, I

1293
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 10: actually used Niva and it was a good search engine.

1294
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 10: But as all defaults are set to Google, they're an

1295
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 10: endless number of screens encouraging people to set their search

1296
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 10: engine to that of the search giant. So Neiva, despite

1297
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 10: its quality, despite its differentiated lack of ads, could not

1298
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 10: get in front of potential customers, and it died. These

1299
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 10: default settings and redirections are what's on trial, because that's

1300
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 10: what killed Niva, and that's what prevents anyone else from

1301
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 10: investing in the search next search competitor. If Google is

1302
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 10: found guilty and disciplined reasonably by being broken apart or

1303
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 10: having a choice screen imposed, or some other set of remedies,

1304
01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 10: then the new technologies of machine learning AI you will

1305
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 10: actually be deployed in a competitive marketplace. That's new. Rival

1306
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 10: search engines can try different things, and we'll see immense

1307
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 10: possibilities open up, similar to those after the AT and

1308
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 10: T breakup. The future of telecommunications was not obvious in

1309
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 10: nineteen eighty two when that breakup happened. It only happened

1310
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 10: because of the breakup. There's actually a good amount of

1311
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 10: evidence on that as well. And that's true historically with

1312
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 10: all of these old antitrust cases. Okay, so far, I've

1313
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 10: laid out the arguments in the case in the historical context.

1314
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 13: But what about Google?

1315
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 10: What do they say about the allegations? Google has a case.

1316
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 10: Google's essential argument is that search is about economies of

1317
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 10: scale and that it owns the whole market, not because

1318
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 10: it's a predator, but because consumers simply prefer its search

1319
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 10: engines to rivals. Let's go back to the Department of

1320
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 10: Justice slide on defaults, because this argument works both ways. Now,

1321
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 10: Google would say that it might engage in behavior to

1322
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 10: exclude competitors, but it needs to do so to get

1323
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 10: the day to improve its search engine. Fundamentally, Google argues

1324
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 10: its ability to exclude others is a good deal for America.

1325
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 10: The exclusion is the price of this great search engine.

1326
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 10: In other words, consumers love Google. They love the search

1327
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 10: just so much that its monopoly is legal. That's Google's argument. Now,

1328
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 10: my view is that Google is Google Search is not

1329
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 10: as good as it used to be. It's not as

1330
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 10: good as it would be if it were disciplined by competition.

1331
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 10: Google is coasting. Essentially, it produces an increasingly shoddy product.

1332
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 10: There's an economist in the sixties. He said a great line.

1333
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 10: She said, the best reward for a monopolist is a

1334
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 10: quiet life. That's what Google is at this point. So

1335
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 10: as one Googler who left the company recently put it, quote,

1336
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 10: Google has one hundred and seventy five thousand plus capable

1337
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 10: and well compensated employees who get very little done end quote.

1338
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 10: Google used to be magic, but that was ten years ago.

1339
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 10: Today's search is full of too many ads, crap results

1340
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 10: peddled with Google's because of Google's own self interest. So

1341
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 10: here is what the Washing Post noted in twenty twenty.

1342
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 10: The Internet Archives wayback Machine stored some Google search results

1343
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 10: over the years. When we look back, a picture emerges

1344
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 10: of how Google increasingly fails us. There's more space dedicated

1345
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 10: to ads that look like search results. More results start

1346
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 10: with with answer snippets, sometimes incorrect, ripped from other sites,

1347
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 10: and increasingly results point you back to Google's own properties,

1348
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 10: such as maps in YouTube, where it can show more

1349
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 10: ads and gather more of your data. Many judges believe

1350
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 10: what executives say, and so judge Meta is likely to

1351
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 10: hear from Google CEO that economies of scale are all

1352
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 10: that drives product quality, and he may buy that. The

1353
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 10: judge may believe that, and I actually think Google executives

1354
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 10: believe it as well. Still, such an argument isn't really

1355
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 10: any different from what every monopolist has always argued. Standard

1356
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 10: Oil discussed how it brought cheap kerosene to the masses

1357
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 10: at and T stressed its awesome quality and universal service.

1358
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 10: Alcoa said that its control over aluminum was a result

1359
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 10: of its focus and dedication to America. IBM talked about

1360
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 10: how much it innovated and developed the computing industry. Monopolists

1361
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 10: always believe they are serving humanity, but Congress made it

1362
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 10: clear by passing antitrust laws that monopolies, whatever they may

1363
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 10: say or think, are not actually doing that. And the

1364
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 10: evidence from Standard Oil's breakup leading to the development of

1365
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 10: gasoline to the lawsuit anti trust lawsuit in the sixties

1366
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 10: against IBM creating the modern software industry suggests that Congress

1367
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 10: was right. Depending on what happens, there may be additional

1368
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 10: time spent on a remedy, or the case may go

1369
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 10: on appeal. Indeed, Judge Meta is not the only person

1370
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 10: who matters here. He does decide the whether Google is

1371
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 10: guilty initially. He decides the remedy initially, but the case

1372
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 10: is likely to be appealed, probably all the way to

1373
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 10: the Supreme Court. And if the Supreme Court judge Meta

1374
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 10: the DC Circuit, the Supreme Court erodes into trust case

1375
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 10: law against Google so much that this giant search monopoly

1376
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 10: that's obviously a monopoly. Everyone knows it's a monopoly. If

1377
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 10: they say, well, this is not the monopolization laws don't

1378
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 10: apply to this monopoly, even though it's giant controls all

1379
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 10: this information, controls society in many ways, then Congress will

1380
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 10: be confronted with the reality that it is hard to

1381
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,959
Speaker 10: use the existing antitrust laws to address dominant corporate power,

1382
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 10: which is what they were written originally to address. As

1383
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 10: witnesses testify from Google executives to rivals, we're about to

1384
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 10: learn an enormous amount about how the Internet developed, how

1385
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 10: advertising is sold, and why decisions about what we search

1386
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 10: for happen the way that they do. It's pretty disconcerting.

1387
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 10: That so much key evidence was destroyed by Google, and

1388
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 10: the judge hasn't done anything yet, but this case will

1389
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 10: still be a massively educational experience for the public, for

1390
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,919
Speaker 10: the industry, and for Congress. Indeed, a tidbit that came

1391
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 10: out on a hearing last Friday is that Google is

1392
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 10: actually a posing having a public feed in the courtroom,

1393
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 10: whereas the government actually does want a public feed. Apparently

1394
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 10: the search giant doesn't want the public to be able

1395
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 10: to hear the arguments and evidence at hand. I guess

1396
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 10: that sometimes Google is concerned about privacy. Well, the thing

1397
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 10: is is that if I were Google, if I were

1398
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 10: Google executive, and I wanted to maintain Google's monopoly, I

1399
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 10: wouldn't want this information to come out either. I mean,

1400
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 10: I wouldn't want I would want the public to know

1401
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 10: as little as possible about my business. But that is

1402
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 10: in many ways what these anti trust cases are for.

1403
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 10: To learn about how our markets work, to learn about

1404
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 10: whether firms are using coercive market power or whether they

1405
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 10: are competing on the merits whatever happens. Reviving laws to

1406
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 10: constrain corporate power does take time, as people within many

1407
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 10: institutions have to change their mind and come to grips

1408
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 10: with the choice of living in a free society or

1409
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 10: one that is dominated by monopolies and is much more

1410
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 10: authoritarian in its commercial structure. Sure, unfortunately that change is

1411
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 10: happening in September October, so that is this month, starting

1412
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 10: on Tuesday, we're going to start to see some of

1413
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 10: the fruits of that change, and hopefully Judgemta will live

1414
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 10: up to the legacy of the DG District Court set

1415
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 10: forty one years ago by the courage of one Judge

1416
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 10: Harold Greed. Thanks for watching this big breakdown on the

1417
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 10: Breaking Points channel. If you'd like to know more about

1418
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 10: big business and how our economy really works, you can

1419
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 10: sign up by going to the link in the description

1420
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 10: below for my market power focused newsletter. Big Thanks and

1421
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 10: have a good one.

1422
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 14: Axios is out with a new survey if we can

1423
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 14: put this element up saying they polled what's two hundred

1424
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 14: and thirteen computer science experts from sixty five different universities

1425
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:46,959
Speaker 14: and ask them who would be the ask them number

1426
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 14: of questions, but number one, who would be the best

1427
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 14: to regulate artificial intelligence going forward. Also asked questions around

1428
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 14: whether or not or when AI might escape human control

1429
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 14: and what the best way we can fore close or

1430
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 14: stall that that event is. So, as you can see here,

1431
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 14: the number one recommendation from these computer science experts emily

1432
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 14: is a basically a Department of AI or some type

1433
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 14: of agency underneath a Department.

1434
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 13: Of AI, like the AI.

1435
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 14: Protection Board, something along those lines that doesn't require Congress

1436
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 14: coming in whenever there needs to be some kind of

1437
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 14: nimble movement. Rather, the agency would be able to respond

1438
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 14: and also would be able to say regulate companies that

1439
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 14: are engaged in AI would be able to kind of

1440
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 14: examine what they're up to, why, what its potential implications

1441
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 14: are for human civilization?

1442
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 13: What do you make of this?

1443
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 14: This idea from size that we need the regulation we

1444
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 14: need is a new federal agency.

1445
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 9: You know, there's so much disagreement in AI world.

1446
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 11: There are experts who say this is only going to

1447
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 11: be for the benefit of humanity. There will be some

1448
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 11: downstream costs, but in the net it's going to be

1449
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 11: to the benefit. All of the fears are overblown. And

1450
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 11: then you have experts, I mean people who have worked

1451
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 11: intimately on this technology who say it terrifies me, and

1452
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 11: it is already kind of out of the box. There's

1453
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 11: really nothing even in regulation at this point. Basically like

1454
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 11: game is already lost. It's a matter of time. We

1455
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 11: can try our best to do what we can do,

1456
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 11: but like the game has already lost. And I think

1457
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 11: this also reflects that level of disagreement. I think we're

1458
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 11: going to see that level of disagreement come out in

1459
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 11: really important sort of forums that Chuck Schumer, who by

1460
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 11: the way, is himself like very deep into tech world

1461
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 11: just based on his own connections. He's very much sort

1462
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 11: of connected by family. I think his daughters are both

1463
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 11: in the tech sector. So what his you know, motivations are,

1464
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:58,600
Speaker 11: whether he has incentives to do the right thing on

1465
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 11: tech I think is an open question. But he at

1466
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 11: least has been having people who are sort of familiar

1467
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 11: with the technology chirping in his ears, saying that you

1468
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 11: need to take this seriously. I feel like we're going

1469
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 11: to see those disagreements come out just next week when

1470
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 11: he has all of these tech experts here in Washington,

1471
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 11: d C.

1472
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 9: To give their own sort of takes on AI.

1473
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 11: One of the things that really stood out to me

1474
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 11: with the survey is that respondents from axios, they say,

1475
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 11: express greater worry about discrimination and bias resulting from AI,

1476
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 11: so forty two percent. Then about the risk of mass

1477
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 11: unemployment that only bothered twenty two percent of people. I think,

1478
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 11: you know, there's serious concerns about both of those issues,

1479
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,719
Speaker 11: But I mean, come on, that you have that level

1480
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 11: of disparity twenty two percent only worried about employment versus

1481
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 11: discrimination and bias up at forty two percent.

1482
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 9: I don't even know what to like.

1483
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 11: I don't even have trust in the AI experts to

1484
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 11: be worried about the right things and the level of

1485
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:58,679
Speaker 11: disagreement I think, in this survey and in others about

1486
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 11: how serious the problem is.

1487
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 9: It fuels that.

1488
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 14: Right, right, it's it's these guys are useful, and they're

1489
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 14: mostly guys in the sense that they have some understanding

1490
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 14: of the way that it works. But when it comes

1491
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:14,639
Speaker 14: to their ideas about how it ought to be handled

1492
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 14: and what its implications are and where where it fits

1493
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 14: into the kind of human and civilizational experience, those those

1494
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 14: those contributions aren't particularly I think useful. That that's that's

1495
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 14: more in the realm of you know, the democratic control

1496
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 14: that you know that currently operates through our politicians, right,

1497
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 14: but you know, ultimately is supposed to come from you know,

1498
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 14: the people who are then able to then you know,

1499
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:47,679
Speaker 14: enforce their will over these over these machines. The one

1500
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 14: area that I feel like the alarmists are missing is

1501
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 14: that there's more to.

1502
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 13: AI than just lines of code. Like behind those lines.

1503
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 14: Of code, are you need energy like you need like

1504
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 14: they have to run on something and that requires material

1505
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 14: resources from around the world to create the energy, the batteries,

1506
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 14: the other the other things that you need to make

1507
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 14: the cloud run, make make the technology run.

1508
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1509
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 14: I think uh, some of these a lot of these

1510
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 14: computer scientists, they show up for work, they flick the

1511
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 14: lights on the Internet's working, like they're they're not thinking

1512
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:33,879
Speaker 14: about the way that you there's there are actual massive

1513
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 14: servers relying on enormous amounts of energy and and just

1514
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 14: human production that is not necessarily infinite and how the

1515
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 14: which which then means that there are limits to what

1516
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 14: the machines are capable of outside of a relationship with

1517
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 14: humanity and also with you know, resource allocation and resources

1518
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 14: that exist in the world.

1519
01:12:57,800 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 13: So I think there.

1520
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 14: Is they are getting a little ahead of themselves in

1521
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 14: the sense that they can't I don't quite see how

1522
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 14: machines can do all of that if there isn't the

1523
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:11,560
Speaker 14: raw materials out there to make it hum Yeah.

1524
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 11: Well, and so another thing that stands out to me

1525
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 11: from this is three percent of respondents responded that the

1526
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 11: private sector should it is the best entity to regulate

1527
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 11: three percent, And that I think is a big thing

1528
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 11: carrying into and especially for conservatives libertarians who have very

1529
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 11: good arguments by the way, about hampering development when China

1530
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 11: is currently working really hard to develop all of these

1531
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 11: different advanced llms. Whether or not they're capable of those

1532
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 11: a different question, but like it is, that's a legitimate concern,

1533
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:43,679
Speaker 11: especially if they start exporting it to the developing world

1534
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 11: and other places like that.

1535
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 9: I get it, I understand it.

1536
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 11: At the same time, however, when you have only three

1537
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 11: percent of these experts saying the private sector is the

1538
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 11: best entity to regulate AI, that tells me when this

1539
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:56,960
Speaker 11: comes to the desk of Capitol Hill next week.

1540
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 9: It should.

1541
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 11: It should be a pretty glaring signal that so regulation

1542
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 11: which we have essentially none of. Now, there are some

1543
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 11: laws on the books that can be applied you know,

1544
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 11: through the legal system through challenges, couldcept precedent for how

1545
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 11: we deal with AI that's true. You know, there's there's patents,

1546
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 11: there's all kinds of different things that could be applied

1547
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 11: to this.

1548
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 9: I get it.

1549
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 11: But at the same time, we have virtually no regulation

1550
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 11: of AI right now. It's it's a consortium of people

1551
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 11: who have been coming in and out of the White

1552
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:24,839
Speaker 11: House industry that has a close relationship with the government

1553
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 11: saying we're working on this right now. Of course, big

1554
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 11: industry loves to be regulated because it hurts their competitors sometimes,

1555
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 11: so we'll see some of that coming into play. The

1556
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 11: good old bootleggers and what's the phrase bootleggers and you

1557
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 11: know talking about it, Yeah, which is a legitimate thing.

1558
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 9: Like some of that's gonna happen.

1559
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 11: But when this comes to Congress, like they should know

1560
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:47,839
Speaker 11: they have to do something.

1561
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 9: Something needs to happen.

1562
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 11: There has to be some basic framework that isn't you know,

1563
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 11: that isn't going to kill us in comparison to China,

1564
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 11: but isn't also going to literally.

1565
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 14: Kill us, right, which then hopefully can lead the rest

1566
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 14: of the world. Yeah, so all right, the US is

1567
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 14: doing this, like, let's let's do this too, because they

1568
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 14: don't know, they don't want to blow themselves up either.

1569
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 11: Well, it's the other thing where it's like we actually

1570
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 11: have to all it's the thing where you have you know,

1571
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 11: Winston Churchill talking about the framework for the United Nations

1572
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 11: after nuclear technology atomic weaponry is developed and saying there

1573
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:23,480
Speaker 11: has to be something something, some level of international cooperation

1574
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 11: on these questions because like the climate, for instance, what

1575
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 11: happens in China affects what happens in the US in

1576
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 11: a way that is inextricably intertwined. There's no way we

1577
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 11: can take those two things out. It's the same thing

1578
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 11: with atomic weapons. So yeah, with nuclear weapons. So when

1579
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 11: you're looking at AI, there has to be some level

1580
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 11: of global cooperation too, because if people in China can

1581
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:47,559
Speaker 11: use AI to hack American websites, we can do everything

1582
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 11: we can in the United States and only prevent that

1583
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 11: to an extent.

1584
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 14: Right, and especially with the way that kind of voice

1585
01:15:55,880 --> 01:16:01,680
Speaker 14: mimicry is expanding exponentially. You used to think, well, my

1586
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 14: bank account's safe because you can't I got two factor

1587
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 14: and you can't change you know, my password that way,

1588
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 14: Now you know, if people can call and fake your voice, like,

1589
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 14: then all bets are off, right, So and if and

1590
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 14: if on if there's artificial intelligence answering the phone on

1591
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 14: the other side as well. Then it's just robots against robots.

1592
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 9: That is the future.

1593
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 11: Basically, that is the future, and that will just be

1594
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 11: in our matrix pods the rest of us, Like, we'll just.

1595
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 13: That's where the resources come from.

1596
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 14: At least the matrix felt with that question, like where

1597
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 14: do the actual resources come from?

1598
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:37,799
Speaker 13: Right, And their answer was from the people.

1599
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 9: This is a problem with bitcoin mining too.

1600
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 11: I mean these like bitcoin minds were like using a

1601
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 11: crazy amount of energy to mine the crypto. Yeah, you know,

1602
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 11: there's always a Once you think you've solved a problem,

1603
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 11: you've only created more problems.

1604
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 9: There you go, Russian nesting dolls all the way down.

1605
01:16:55,600 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 13: Indeed, pus An

1606
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 6: Injected the sy