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Speaker 1: BODYBACS with Joseph Scott Morgan. In my opinion, at least,

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Speaker 1: life is a series of intersections. You go down this

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Speaker 1: road that you know, you just think that you know.

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Speaker 1: Everything that happens in your life is kind of this

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Speaker 1: benign event. You never know, however, when you cross paths

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Speaker 1: with somebody, how that person might change your life. Today

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Speaker 1: is a very special edition of body Backs because I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by one of the dearest people in my life,

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Speaker 1: my good friend Nancy Grace, and today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the importance of education in

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Speaker 1: forensic science. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: wellcome to Jacksonville State University.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've got to say thank you number one. It's

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Speaker 2: a beautiful campus and I'm so knocked out by yourn

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Speaker 2: Forensics building. I think, of course, you'll never admit this.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of this has to do with you.

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Speaker 2: I really do. You have brought the Jacksonville State Forensics

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Speaker 2: studies to the forefront and you should really be proud

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Speaker 2: of that. Yeah. Now, let me think, how did we

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Speaker 2: first meet.

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Speaker 1: You were still to the DA's office in Atlanta, and

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Speaker 1: that would not happen, and I was with the EMMY

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Speaker 1: and look, everybody, everybody in my world, in the medical

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Speaker 1: legal world, because you know, we're a lot smaller.

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Speaker 2: Here we go down the garden path.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's your new title.

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Speaker 2: Down the garden path, Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: No, well, get to the point.

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Speaker 2: For Pete's safe. Be direct.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is bodybags, all right, So here we go. Responsible,

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Speaker 1: we take our time. She is a responsive, okay, so

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Speaker 1: here we go. So yeah, you know, the medical legal community,

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Speaker 1: when you think about the forensic practitioners like forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: the EMMY investigators, and even people there at the State

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Speaker 1: Crime Lab, we're much kind of smaller group than your

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Speaker 1: everyday police officers that you're going to have coming in

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Speaker 1: and out of the DA's office.

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Speaker 2: Prosecutors all elite and special. I'm sure they want I'm

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Speaker 2: sure they're happy to hear about that.

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Speaker 1: Now. I don't know that we're a lead. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, I stayed in the field, probably too

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Speaker 1: long because I didn't have good enough good stint since

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Speaker 1: to get away from all these dead bodies. But I

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Speaker 1: did wound up here at Jacksonville State and it has

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Speaker 1: absolutely been a blessing, and you're a big part of that.

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Speaker 1: You had mentioned how I'm a part of this.

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Speaker 2: I believe your honor objection non responsive. I will have

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Speaker 2: you declared a hostile witness across examine. How did we

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Speaker 2: first meet? Can I be any more clear?

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Speaker 1: Jo? Yes, we met. We met actually Nancy on a

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Speaker 1: telephone call, and that's really all I'll say about it.

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Speaker 2: Say the rest.

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Speaker 1: No, we met on a telephone call. And it was

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Speaker 1: at that point that you were looking for something that

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Speaker 1: you were missing from the medical examiner's office. What was

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Speaker 1: I can't remember. It had something to do with an autopsy,

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Speaker 1: and I think it actually had to do with a

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Speaker 1: toxicology report.

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Speaker 2: Oh hell, yes, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: So medical examiners never the forendsic. Pathologists don't take phone calls.

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Speaker 1: It's the investigators that take the phone calls. And so

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Speaker 1: I was on the receiving end of a bit of

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Speaker 1: your fury at that moment. Tom said, well, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I need anything to do with this woman. Yes,

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Speaker 1: actually did, but that's okay. So we started in conference.

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Speaker 2: Wait, I hung up on you because you what told

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Speaker 2: me you didn't know where it was? How can you

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Speaker 2: have an autopsy and declare COD not mod COD if

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Speaker 2: you don't have the toxicology report.

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Speaker 1: Well, exactly, and I'm sure that that's the question you

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Speaker 1: were asking. But if you knew how things operated at

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Speaker 1: the office at that point in time, it would not

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Speaker 1: be completely a surprise the Fulton County, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Oh you're gravy. Yeah, everybody there would hide under their

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Speaker 2: desk and they saw my pond.

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Speaker 1: I didn't care if anybody walked through the door. I

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Speaker 1: was a friend to all attorneys, all comers, but I

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Speaker 1: always knew that I had to take everything with a grain.

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Speaker 2: Of salt, a bag of salt box.

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Speaker 1: And here's why. And this is the first forensic point.

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Speaker 1: The reality is this is that we we particularly I

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Speaker 1: can only speak in my practice in medical legal death investigation.

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Speaker 1: We try to stay right in the middle of the road.

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Speaker 2: And self respecting medical examiner investigator would tell me the

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Speaker 2: DA the ADA that you don't have the toxic cology report,

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Speaker 2: yet somehow you have the manner of death. That cannot

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Speaker 2: be because until you have that toxicology report, you don't

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Speaker 2: know what happened. You might think you know, but until

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Speaker 2: you find out what was in the system, you don't.

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Speaker 1: Know you're absolutely right. But here's the thing. You're here.

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Speaker 2: What's happening here? Dave? Mac take up? Dave, I see

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Speaker 2: you at the distance on remote. Do you hear him?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Every day?

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Speaker 2: It's hurting right now.

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Speaker 1: This is assuming that I knew what the cause of

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Speaker 1: death was at that point. You wanted the damn Talks

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Speaker 1: College report and it didn't exist, and I couldn't pull

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Speaker 1: it out of my There you go.

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Speaker 2: There you go, And that's how it all started.

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Speaker 1: That's how it all started. And you know, and then

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Speaker 1: you follow our relationship and the fact that you would

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Speaker 1: even consider having me on when you were certainly with HLN,

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Speaker 1: and and then I couldn't resist. I could never say

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Speaker 1: no to you. And I was still at my previous

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Speaker 1: academic post wound up here in Alabama, and you're actually

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I came here, because yeah,

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Speaker 1: because the administration had seen me on your show and

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Speaker 1: they were like, you keep popping up on HLN and

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Speaker 1: you were with Nancy, and I had a relationship with

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Speaker 1: them anyway. I've been teaching the police academy here for

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Speaker 1: years and years, and it's like, yeah, I appear on

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Speaker 1: Nancy Show, and I appear on this show and that

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Speaker 1: show and this show, and I was like my other institution.

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Speaker 1: They give me a hard time. They asked me things like, well,

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Speaker 1: are you going to be here for your office hours?

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Speaker 1: And the entire time I go on the shows? You

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Speaker 1: would mention my other institution. I came to Jacksonville State

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Speaker 1: and you would proudly say Jacksonville State. And they saw

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Speaker 1: the value in that.

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Speaker 2: What was your old place.

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Speaker 1: University of North Georgia, North Georgia College up in Delanga, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and I helped establish the forensics program there.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you think about what you do and

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Speaker 2: what medical examiners do, Joe Scott or do you insist

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Speaker 2: on being called Joseph Scott?

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Speaker 1: You can call me anything you want. Joe Scott is

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Speaker 1: really my norm to gear with you, though.

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Speaker 2: Norm Grett really.

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Speaker 1: De g Well, we are at a universe.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Look at Dave. Mackie's actually holding his head down.

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Speaker 2: He's trying to say my special name that you call me.

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Speaker 1: There you go. You don't want to know what Dave

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Speaker 1: calls me, but go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Because and I'm not altogether jesting when I say people

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Speaker 2: would hide under the desk when I would pull into

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Speaker 2: the medical examiner's office, because you know how long medical

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Speaker 2: examiner reports are. They're extremely detailed, as they must be.

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Speaker 2: But a jury, nor can I tolerate. I want to

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Speaker 2: hear it fast and furious hard. Now give me the

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Speaker 2: bottom line, because you don't want grrs like drifting off

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Speaker 2: during the middic of medical examiner's testimony. So and also

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Speaker 2: every line would be a minefield for me because I

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Speaker 2: did not understand all of the language or the implications.

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Speaker 2: So if somebody said, oh, when we were talking about

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Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg the other day, Okay, if Ellen Greenberg died

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Speaker 2: in the space of the time of one workout, let's

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Speaker 2: just say one hour, and she was in ambient ambient

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Speaker 2: temperature in her apartment. Yes, there was a blizzard outside,

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Speaker 2: but they had the heat cranked up really hot, and

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Speaker 2: she was in the kitchen. Then how were her fingertips cold?

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Speaker 2: So in one line of the medical examiner's report, it

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Speaker 2: might say something like the fingertips were culled to the touch. Okay,

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Speaker 2: see that right, There is an element of proof that

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Speaker 2: tells me about fifty things. So you would have I

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Speaker 2: would have to go through each line of the medical

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Speaker 2: report and say, what does that mean, what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: And the doctors thought their time was too valuable for that,

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Speaker 2: And they're right. They're the physicians. They've got tons of

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Speaker 2: dead bodies, They've got to analyze tons of reports to

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Speaker 2: turn out they don't really have that kind of time.

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Speaker 2: But when you're preparing for a jury trial, you have

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Speaker 2: to be able to catch every nuance in a medical

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Speaker 2: examiner's report. So the way you speak on the air

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Speaker 2: makes it so understandable. You have a certain way of speaking,

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Speaker 2: and that's valuable bedside manner.

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Speaker 1: Well, one of the things you got it with Mese,

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Speaker 1: I take exception with you said as well, there should

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Speaker 1: always be time for as I know that you would

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Speaker 1: agree with this, for all the victims and.

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Speaker 2: Just because victims, yes, but not all the prosecuting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know you're the voice for that, and

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Speaker 1: we should, even more so in the medical legal community,

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Speaker 1: be the voice for the dead. I mean, we physically

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Speaker 1: have possession of the remains. We literally and this is

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get off and be too melodramatic,

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Speaker 1: but we hold the hearts of the families, you know,

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Speaker 1: because one of the big questions they always ask me,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I would go make a notification I'd

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Speaker 1: made like two thousand in my career in person, and

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Speaker 1: so when I would you know, the first question families

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Speaker 1: always asked me was after they after I'd established the

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Speaker 1: person that died, they would say, where are they? Because

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Speaker 1: we're tactile, we want to experience that, we want to

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Speaker 1: hold on to them, and so we tell the tales

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Speaker 1: of the dead through the science. And many times there's

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Speaker 1: a detachment with forensic pathologists where they behave as though

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Speaker 1: that they don't have time for other people. And this

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Speaker 1: is the most human of all practic because you're telling

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Speaker 1: the tale of what happened to this person, if you

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Speaker 1: can't make yourself available for that, and that goes back

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Speaker 1: to objectivities too.

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Speaker 2: You know, you made me things to think of.

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Speaker 1: What's up?

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about my finances murder a lot during

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Speaker 2: the last forty eight hours because I had an hour

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Speaker 2: sit down with Steve on Solvis. Yeah, Kelly Gonsolvas's father.

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Speaker 2: If you don't know who Kelly Gonsalvas is, google her.

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Speaker 2: She was one of the four beautiful victims of the

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Speaker 2: Idaho murders. I believe at the hands of Brian Coburger

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Speaker 2: that's yet to be proved in court. And when I

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Speaker 2: say beautiful, yes, I'm referring to Ethan as well. When

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Speaker 2: I look at the four of them, they're just so beautiful,

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Speaker 2: full of life, full of potential, vitality, stars in their eyes,

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Speaker 2: the dreams of their futures. Anyway, speaking to him, and

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Speaker 2: he was talking about having to go to the trial

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Speaker 2: and what that was, hardship, it was going to be

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Speaker 2: on his family, seven and a half hour drive one way.

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Speaker 2: It just reminded me of so much of what I

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Speaker 2: went through. But when Keith died. But do what you're saying,

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Speaker 2: the Medical examiner report, the CEO d the MOD is

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Speaker 2: highly highly sensitive to crime victims' families. Do you know

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Speaker 2: to this day I've never read Keith's autopsy.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't surprise me. And if you, for whatever my

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Speaker 1: advice is worth, I would advise you not to.

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Speaker 2: I'm not I don't want to because you know what,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, it took me a really long time to

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Speaker 2: come out of that horrible place. Years. I think that's

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Speaker 2: you know what delayed me so long and marrying to

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Speaker 2: the point where I almost lost Lucy Lucy and almost

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Speaker 2: died in childbirth. I was old trying to get past that.

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Speaker 2: I've never read the autopsy report. I've never gone to

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Speaker 2: the same of the crime. I've never read the Appella

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Speaker 2: transcript because I don't want to go to that spot.

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Speaker 2: My children need me to be whole.

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Speaker 1: They do. And one of the you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the things, if you remember the old and they do

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Speaker 1: it all the time on television, where they take they

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Speaker 1: take family members into a viewing room and they pull

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Speaker 1: the sheet back and the family gasp and there's some

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Speaker 1: ghoul looking guy that's you know, pulling the sheet back.

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Speaker 1: You know it is, it's it's really assaulting. And most

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Speaker 1: modern medical examiner's offices have gotten away from that. And

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Speaker 1: the reason why is that the family's already going through

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Speaker 1: enough and you further traumatize the family by doing that.

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Speaker 1: In order to achieve positive identification.

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Speaker 2: Should be done in so many different.

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Speaker 1: So many different ways.

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Speaker 2: I did not even want to see Keith in his casket,

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Speaker 2: and I remember and I went into the funeral home.

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Speaker 2: I happened to look off into a chamber where he

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Speaker 2: was at a distance. I finally saw a tiny slice

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Speaker 2: of his face. Yeah, and Joe Scott. I passed out.

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Speaker 2: My mind just could not take it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's something that's burned into your mind for it.

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Speaker 2: It really is. I'm so glad to hear that practice

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Speaker 2: is out not so. My point is medical examiner's death investigators.

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Speaker 2: The impact you have on proving cases is amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that it is in our world. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I try to convey to my

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Speaker 1: students here is that my kind of investigation is completely

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Speaker 1: separate from what the police do. Police are interested in

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Speaker 1: finding a bad guy, locking somebody up and getting them

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Speaker 1: to the prosecutor and they can be prosecuted. My interest

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Speaker 1: begins and ends with the body, okay, and whatever they

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Speaker 1: can do with that data that we produce, which is

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Speaker 1: I've got we not I but we have enough to

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Speaker 1: process without getting into this mindset of getting outside of

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Speaker 1: our lanes relative to the job. We have enough on

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Speaker 1: our plate. You talk about cause of death, manner death,

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Speaker 1: identification of these people, notification of family. And so that's

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Speaker 1: why in a you know, in a the world that

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Speaker 1: I inhabit, I welcomed all attorneys, for instance, whether it's

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Speaker 1: a defensive prosecution, and just lay it out before them.

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Speaker 1: And plus it would give us a sense of what

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Speaker 1: to expect when we got on the stand, you know,

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Speaker 1: because each each one of you guys are probing for

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Speaker 1: something different. But I got to ask you something real

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Speaker 1: quick here, particularly considering that we're in this academic environment

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Speaker 1: at Jack State, looking back through your the lens as

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor and having dealt with so many forensic scientists

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Speaker 1: and practitioners and field personnel. If we could, I'm interested,

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Speaker 1: first off, very broadly, what what do you see If

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Speaker 1: you can kind of come up with one sentence answer

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Speaker 1: relative to the biggest need as a prosecutor, what do

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Speaker 1: you want to see from a forensic practitioner that's going

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Speaker 1: to walk through your door as a prosecutor, that one

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Speaker 1: element may be characteristic that is really going to help

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Speaker 1: you as a prosecutor to do what you have to

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Speaker 1: do and help the courts too.

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Speaker 2: The number one thing, to put it in a nutshell,

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Speaker 2: the single most important thing is be prepared.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, do not come.

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Speaker 2: In my courtroom without knowing your case backwards, get forwards.

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Speaker 2: I will have already been to the scene myself, yeah,

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Speaker 2: without the police or anybody else with me, So I

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Speaker 2: can understand that is important as it relates to the body.

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Speaker 2: For instance, you can give me the trajectory path of

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Speaker 2: a bullet. But unless I've been to this, it means nothing,

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Speaker 2: as in laboratory conditions, so you must be prepared. Also, secondarily,

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Speaker 2: you have to be able to communicate your knowledge in

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Speaker 2: a way that's easy to understand. Nobody went to medical school.

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Speaker 2: Nobody wants to hear your Latin phrases or your French phrases,

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Speaker 2: not to give may that's to be okay, So long

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Speaker 2: story short, you have to be able to communicate, and

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Speaker 2: that is a problem with a lot of doctors because

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Speaker 2: they're so smart and they're so educated, it's hard for

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Speaker 2: them to break it down in a simple way to

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Speaker 2: make everyone understand. But when you're talking about different scenarios,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily for the medical examiner, but possible for the

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Speaker 2: death investigator, and the importance the critical nature of crime

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Speaker 2: scene analysis. Yes, you were talking earlier before we took

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Speaker 2: to the airwaves about various cases. One you mentioned is

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Speaker 2: Chris Watts may he write in Hell, who totally totally

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Speaker 2: disregarded the value of his wife, Shenan Watts, their children,

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Speaker 2: Celeste and Bella, Nico and Nico. Yeah baby Nico yet

306
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Speaker 2: to be born. Yeah, he murdered all of them. He

307
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Speaker 2: was a pos in technical legal terms, cheating, going on

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Speaker 2: websites just for hookups, while his wife, you know, worked

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Speaker 2: to bring in the money and had the children and

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Speaker 2: raise the children. And I remember it broke my heart.

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Speaker 2: I looked in their home. She had a lamp just

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Speaker 2: like a lamp in our guest bedroom, and I remember

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Speaker 2: looking and looking for the right thing came then I

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Speaker 2: suddenly saw it and yay, it was on sale. I

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Speaker 2: think it was at Peer one. And I thought, I

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Speaker 2: wonder how long she took to decorate that home herself,

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Speaker 2: because I immediately recognized that we had gotten the same

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Speaker 2: thing and make everything just right. And I looked back

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Speaker 2: at the children's pictures before he murdered them. They were

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Speaker 2: often matching outfits and their hair was always done. And

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Speaker 2: you know that was her, Shenanne, doing all that.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely she was.

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Speaker 2: Nothing to him. Now to the crime scene. Now you've

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Speaker 2: got the home, of course where Shenan Watts was murdered,

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Speaker 2: but the disposal site and you and I you really

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Speaker 2: opened my eyes to the excruciating aspect of their disposal.

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Speaker 2: It was out where he worked, and uh and a

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Speaker 2: dark something I'll think of the dark Yeah, refiner refiner

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Speaker 2: fields out in the middle of nowhere. Now it's significant

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Speaker 2: to me because he had worked there or worked near there,

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Speaker 2: So that was a place I would immediately look, a

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Speaker 2: place where he had lived, a place where he had worked,

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Speaker 2: a place he passes his haunts. Because think about it,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to hide out, you don't have to

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Speaker 2: blurt it out. Joe's gott think to yourself, where would

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Speaker 2: you go hide? Well, I guarantee you it's a place

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Speaker 2: that I could find you because it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a place familiar to me. Okay, So that's there. He

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Speaker 2: goes an a dark oil fields that is an open area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I got to tell you one of the things,

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Speaker 1: you know, And as it goes to that that particular question.

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Speaker 1: We're in a very rural area here at Jaxell State

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Speaker 1: and we have a lot of d well we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of kids that come from Metro Atlanta and

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Speaker 1: Chattanov and Birmingham are student bodies that way, but we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of kids that come from rural places

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Speaker 1: and guess what they're going to wind up going back

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Speaker 1: to rural places. And you know, people will hear bout

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Speaker 1: my career and they'll say, well, you worked in New

350
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Speaker 1: Orleans with a corner and you worked in Atlanta with them,

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Speaker 1: You've seen everything. No, I have it. I've never seen everything.

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Speaker 1: You've never seen everything. And you know what, when you're

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Speaker 1: a rural practitioner, you're going out to do forensics, it's

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Speaker 1: actually probably a tougher job because you have to be

355
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Speaker 1: all things to all people. I was just teaching a

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Speaker 1: class the other day and I was telling my kids,

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Speaker 1: these young kids that think they want to go into forensics,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, look, when you were all on

359
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Speaker 1: a scene. If you're in a twenty you've got like

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Speaker 1: a twenty person police force, you might have to be

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Speaker 1: the crime scene photographer, the crime scene tech. Oh and

362
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Speaker 1: by the way, you're also the beat unit that responded,

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Speaker 1: and then maybe you.

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Speaker 2: Might have a bad I always took my own photos.

365
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Speaker 2: I would look for ballistics. I would visit every scene, witnesses,

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Speaker 2: canvas in the neighborhood all by myself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, but you know now, and you know

368
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Speaker 1: this when you walk into a courtroom, though. The first

369
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Speaker 1: thing that you know when it comes to forensics, they claim.

370
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Speaker 1: They don't you like it when they claim, but it

371
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Speaker 1: is claimed that jurors what they really they want to

372
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Speaker 1: hear about DNA. And when you start to get up

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Speaker 1: into that skill level and you're in these areas of

374
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Speaker 1: rural isolation, you know, how is it that that practitioner

375
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Speaker 1: their background has to be so thorough relative to what

376
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Speaker 1: they've learned prior to showing up on a scene like

377
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Speaker 1: out there in Anta Darko. You know, at the oil

378
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Speaker 1: fields out there, the day to prepare is not the

379
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Speaker 1: day of the scene. It's months and months in advance,

380
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Speaker 1: having done all of the training, and who could you know?

381
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Speaker 1: You think about this is the thing that always interests

382
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Speaker 1: me about that case and case is similar to it.

383
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Speaker 1: We always think about big city with mass violence and

384
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Speaker 1: all these things. And I don't think that people people

385
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Speaker 1: in up in Idaho didn't think those four kids were

386
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Speaker 1: going to get butchered up there, and that you've been there, Nancy.

387
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Speaker 1: That's an isolated place. You think about Chris Watt's isolated place.

388
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Speaker 1: They don't have the same resources. So I think, for me,

389
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Speaker 1: if you were prosecutor in that area, how do you.

390
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Speaker 2: It's not like you're walking into an apartment in a

391
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Speaker 2: Manhattan high rise where you've got four walls around your

392
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Speaker 2: crime scene and you can do blood spidder analysis in

393
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Speaker 2: the comfort of the air condition and bring in photography.

394
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Speaker 2: Oh no, you are out in an oil filled and

395
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Speaker 2: you discover by deduction that the children have been forced

396
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 2: into cylindrical oil repositories that are so narrow it pulled

397
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Speaker 2: the skin off their arms. I believe you said, d

398
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Speaker 2: armed gloving, degloving.

399
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Speaker 1: Well, you see the thing.

400
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Speaker 2: I learned that turn from you, And you know that

401
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 2: makes me think of a fox glove, flower or gloves

402
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: I wore as a girl scattered to cotillion de gloving.

403
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 2: It what it is is it tore the skin off

404
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: their arms as he stuffed them down into that cylinder.

405
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: And now here comes an investigator. You got to look

406
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 2: at all the dirt in the surrounding area, all the

407
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 2: potential DNA fingerprints on those cylinders. How do you open

408
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: the cylinders? Is there a crank? Is there a handle?

409
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: You have to dig into the dirt. You have to

410
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Speaker 2: bring out the dogs. And of course they found sNaN

411
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Speaker 2: watts in a I would say shallow gray nearby. She

412
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Speaker 2: didn't get an oil coffin, yesff and birth.

413
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Speaker 1: Well, here's the other thing. That danger was a real

414
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Speaker 1: part of this too, because folks don't realize that that

415
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: was unrefined petroleum that was in there. So you have

416
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: things like, oh, you had things like taluen. So when

417
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: they went in to cases, yeah, I mean, so you're

418
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Speaker 1: talking about literally something you could clean metal with. These

419
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: people that had to go work that scene, they had

420
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Speaker 1: to drop the hatches on the side, put on rebreathers,

421
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: and completely suit up just to go in there and

422
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Speaker 1: to retrieve those bodies because if they had stayed in there,

423
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Speaker 1: it would have killed them too. That's what he introduced

424
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Speaker 1: everybody in that area too. So you can't anticipate what

425
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: is going to happen. You have to prepare for it,

426
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: you know, and try to understand that. You know, when

427
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: you you see a case like this and you think, well,

428
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Speaker 1: how am I ever going to get to the point

429
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Speaker 1: where I'm going to be up and running and functioning

430
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Speaker 1: as an independent investigator out in the field, all of

431
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: these things come flooding in and I can promise you

432
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Speaker 1: you don't think that lightning is going to strike. You

433
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to happen, And buddy, it happens.

434
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: It's going to be delivered to your doorstep. Even in

435
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: the most isolated places.

436
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: I mean, think about every blade of grass. It's a

437
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 2: potential source of DNA or evidence. And there you are

438
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: looking at an oil field and you have to process

439
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 2: the scene.

440
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

441
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that to be the most difficult scene

442
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: is the outdoor scene.

443
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: It is I mean from your perspective, it is that.

444
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: And Dave and I were actually recently talking about this jeez,

445
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: what's his name? The little boy Simon that we just

446
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: taped on the other day and out of Savannah, out

447
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: of Savannah, Georgia, and you know the mama had thrown

448
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: him away. Well, he wound up in landfill down there

449
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: in Chatham County. And those let me tell you something,

450
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: kudos to those police officers and FBI. They went in

451
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: there and removed all that garbage landfill. It's the worst

452
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: cases you can work.

453
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, They're so hard to do.

454
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: Hard to do, yeah, absolutely, and so it will. Absolutely

455
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: it's soul crushing sometimes when you look back, it's like

456
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: looking for a needle in a stack of needles.

457
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 2: Hold on, I just posted a picture. I mean for

458
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: anybody listening right now. Joe Scott says, Hey, guys, surprise

459
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: for you. I'ment Oh goodie, what could it be I

460
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: come here? I said, is it me sitting down and

461
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: doing your show for you? And he goes, yeah, you ready, Dave? Okay,

462
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: So I posted his picture. Cheryl McCollum has already spotted

463
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: and said, this.

464
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: Is yes man. Hey, Cheryl, shout out to you. We're

465
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: glad to have Nancy Grace here join us at Jacksonville

466
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: State University here at the Ramona Wood Hall, which is

467
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: now home to Criminal justice and forensic investigations. It's something

468
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: we're going to do kind of a tour show Nancy

469
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: around today, but just some of the elements here.

470
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: I talk about one more case. Yeah, absolutely, Jodi Arius okay,

471
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: can I tell you why Jodi Aris? Okay? Obviously the

472
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: bathroom is important Where Jody Arias stabbed Travis Alexander all

473
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: because they have been dating. They broke up because she's

474
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: crazy and a wack adoodle. Not in the legal sense.

475
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: I think. If I have to listen to that woman

476
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: singer Christma Carroll, you know I'll play.

477
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: That every time we cover it. I have to hear,

478
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: oh holy not. Make sure she can still hit the

479
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: high note. America's got talent behind bars. So obviously where

480
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: she killed him, in the bathroom and outside the bathroom

481
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: are the critical areas. But leave no stone unturned because

482
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: what's in the washer? Idiot left her digital camera in

483
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: the sheets she took off the bed which were covered

484
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: in DNA, and the digiKam in the washer, and what's

485
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: on the didg you cam a picture of her foot

486
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: during the murder and wearing pants that were found in

487
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: her dress or drawers? I mean, how can you fight

488
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: her foot is near the body?

489
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for so long, you know, because that's a

490
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: think to look in the washer. That's actually the first

491
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: case that you and I covered together. Really, Yeah, going

492
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: back back to then.

493
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: You mean after I hung up on you.

494
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, after you hung up when you were at HLN.

495
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: This is a long after that. Uh and and so

496
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: that and uh in Trayvon Martin. Those were the two

497
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: that we were covering. But anyway, with Jody Arias, that

498
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: was fascinating because you know, evil, pure evil, and.

499
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: Plus you shot a burd at me in the courtroom,

500
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: so you know it's personal.

501
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is personal. Well, it sounds like it's personal

502
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: because she's got all these people that are after.

503
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: Her for mess. Okay, I am not interested in another man.

504
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: Good I raised one.

505
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to raise another one.

506
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: I got to ask you though, with with Jody Arius

507
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: uh so much time had a apps between the time

508
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: that she murdered Travis and the time he was found,

509
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: and we find ourselves in these positions as death investigators

510
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: many times. I still remember those photos from the crimes

511
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: in Nancy. I know you remember them, and from the

512
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: autopsy too. He was in a moderate state to advanced

513
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: state of decomposition by the time, and so one of

514
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: the things that we have to teach our students, and

515
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: one of the things I work on here at Jacksonville

516
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: State is walking through post mortem changes and just those

517
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: base elements that a lot of people don't think about,

518
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: but when we're trying to establish time for people to understand,

519
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: particularly from your perspective as a prosecutor, time is one

520
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: of those elements that might be one of the most

521
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: important points along the continuum of the investigation because if

522
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: you don't.

523
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: Have a time frame, yes, I need a tod.

524
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

525
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: The whole thing because with the correct time of death,

526
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: I can rule people in and out very quickly. If

527
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: I have the wrong time of death, I'm.

528
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: Screwed, right and We've got a couple of times associated

529
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: with death. And just so folks understand, you have time

530
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: of death, which is an actual scientific or semi scientific.

531
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: People think we can do it, like we can get

532
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: it down to the minute. We can't. That's a fallacy.

533
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: And then you have time pronouncement, and that's a legal

534
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: thing that's like you know, they're dead forever and ever, amen,

535
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: they're pronounced dead. Those are two separate things of time

536
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: of death. What Nancy's talking about here is all of

537
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: these elements when we're assessing riger mortis and libra mortis

538
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: and postmarnal avidity and stomach contents and all of these

539
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: changes that are taking place in the body. We have

540
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: to be able to again this idea, how do we

541
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: communicate that effectively to you as a scientist so that

542
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: you can utilize it because your job is not to

543
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: talk to the judge, not to talk to the defense attorney.

544
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: But those twelve people in the box, how do you

545
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: communicate that to them? And what tools do you need

546
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: from the forendsic.

547
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: Science be strought back in there. So I remember being

548
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: in court every day for so long, and it would

549
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: be like a tennis match when I'd either be questioning

550
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: the witness, and I look at the witness and look

551
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: at the jury, look at the witness, look at the jury,

552
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: look at the witness, witness, witness jury, and when the

553
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: witness would be on cross with the other side, I

554
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: look nowhere but witness, jury, witness jury. To just say,

555
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: it was like nothing else existed, and I would be

556
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: so extremely irritated when the judge would suddenly, usually a man,

557
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: no offense, gentleman would jump in and say something like

558
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: what what what do you want?

559
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: Right? Right?

560
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: So it's so important, you know, how you communicate this

561
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: to a jury.

562
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: How how would if if you had a perfect forensic

563
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: witness on the stand, what would be your preference as

564
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: far as let's start off with level of detail and

565
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: how how to effectively communicate. I know that's very broad,

566
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: and I apologie us for that. But if we're if

567
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: we're forensic practitioners and we're trying to explain one of

568
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: these complicated, complex scientific constructs about the mechanism of death

569
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: and all of this, it's hard for us many times

570
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: to rain ourselves in all right, And I can, and

571
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: I do this with you on the air. I know

572
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: that you're doing it with me, because your brain is

573
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: like screening. Get to the point, get to the point,

574
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: get to the point, and that's hard for us to do.

575
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: And to have an effective witness in the forensic round.

576
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: For you, what are you looking for for that person

577
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: to be able to communicate somebody you've called to the

578
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: stand that's going to be testifying for the prosecution.

579
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: Number one, I would never put up a witness cald Okay,

580
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: I would have gone through I always wrote out my hand,

581
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: not a computer. Yeah, hand written questions that I would

582
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: go through with the medical examiner after I had gone

583
00:32:53,600 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: through his or her report line for line. Yeah. I

584
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: think the best thing to do when it comes to

585
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: medical examiners is the district attorney should stand right with

586
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: the jury with the report in your hand, true, and

587
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: go through it line by line first, ask general questions

588
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: and then let the medical examiner. Cannot help himself herself,

589
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: they have to expound. Yeah, So it's like asking a

590
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: lawyer to be brief. So in that vein, you got

591
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: to let them go, but you will have to interrupt

592
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: quite often to.

593
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: Clarify, yeah, and to get you know, get to the point.

594
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: I found it fascinating. I'm glad you mentioned Ellen's case,

595
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg's case. That autopsy report, which you and I

596
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: have both reviewed. A lot of that stuff is what

597
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: we refer to as boilerplate. You go in there and

598
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: some of those things and just here's a big industry

599
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: secret in case people aren't aware of this. Lots of

600
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: times when and I've heard them say this, forendship pathologists

601
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: will say they're talking the taping right dicta dictating, and

602
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: they'll say standard documentation, standard documentation. And what that means

603
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: is that each one of the sections that's actually their

604
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: boilerplate statement, and the person that's typing this thing up,

605
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: it's going to be the standard. You can look at

606
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: these reports and they all look the same until they

607
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: get to the finer point stick.

608
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: In the right height and way the way that belongs.

609
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: To this, and then you do injury descriptions.

610
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: You said something really interesting just a few moments ago.

611
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: I hope I'm not going to.

612
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: Death come forward, but you said a different time of

613
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: death and the pronouncement of death that autopsy, if my

614
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: memory serves me correctly, he put the time of death.

615
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: Ellen's time of death is when they filled out the

616
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: death certificate. I'm like Okay, that's not her time of death. No,

617
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 2: she died several hours before that. That's what I'm counting

618
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 2: on you to figure out. Man.

619
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a scientific ape, didn't didn't he? Yeah, it

620
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: seems like it's something like that. But because I found it,

621
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: I found it very It was so ridiculous, and you

622
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: you think about that, and you think about what and

623
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I look at this now with

624
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg and I think, well, you know what, maybe

625
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: and this loops back to what we were saying. Maybe

626
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: they didn't see this coming. But baby, let me tell

627
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: you something. You've got to see it coming all the time.

628
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: You don't know when you're going to walk into the scene.

629
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: I was going to be reading that autopsy report going

630
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: this doesn't make any sense, and.

631
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: That we're going to be talking about it all this

632
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: time later. This poor beautiful young woman whose life was

633
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: literally ripped to shreds, and her parents now up in

634
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: their years and just the ongoing three O the house.

635
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 2: It doesn't surprise me they had to sell their house

636
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: because they've sent their life savings about eight hundred thousand

637
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: dollars into fighting the suicide ruling.

638
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about Josh and Sandy, the beautiful huh

639
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: oh yeah, and lovely people. How many times have we

640
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: been on the air with Amnia over and over and

641
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: over again, talk to them and just trying to cancel

642
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: them from me.

643
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: Saying the same thing over and over. But I can't

644
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 2: get past that suicide. Really, twenty stabs to the back,

645
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: the neck, the back of the head.

646
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't make sense. And then you've got a

647
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: neuropathologist that's saying that, a neuropathologist that's actually was hired

648
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: by the Emmy's office there that actually made the comment,

649
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: you know that post mortem, I don't see any kind

650
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: of injury here, So that can you imagine getting that

651
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: information as a parent, And then all of a sudden,

652
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: it's like a glimmer of hope. Oh, they're saying that

653
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: there's a post mortem injury now that proves something to

654
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: us in their mind.

655
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: That she didn't do it after she was dead exactly.

656
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: So it's going to be I'm all in on following

657
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: the case, continue to follow in the case.

658
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: You asked me about three cases, Jody Arias, Chris Watts, and.

659
00:36:50,239 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: One of your favorite cases of all, oh, Scott Peterson. Yeah,

660
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to credit Dave with this because it seems

661
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 1: to be a pattern that is developing with this case.

662
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: Was he or I'm going to ask you, Nancy Grace question,

663
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: yes or no? Was he or was he not on

664
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: death row? Nancy Grace?

665
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: Yes?

666
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: And is he still on death row?

667
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: No?

668
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you follow that line of logic logic,

669
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: it seems like his life is gradually improving. Here. What

670
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: are the odds? What are the chances that they're going

671
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: to be able to find something after all these years?

672
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: Because this thing is cycled innocence.

673
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: I just remembered something.

674
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's that?

675
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: I found a picture? Yeah that I forgot to work

676
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 2: into our program we taped today. I found a picture

677
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: of the inmates having a luau at Mill Creek Pen Dave, Matt,

678
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: can you believe we did that? I am so mad.

679
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 2: I going to shoot my toe aluau for Pete's sake?

680
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: A luau? I'm getting We're doing Scott Peterson again, so

681
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: I can use that picture. Why is he I'm not

682
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: having a luau? Why is he having a luau?

683
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: Oh?

684
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: Why you luau? Okay, never mind, go ahead, what about

685
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 2: the crime scene? Well, I blame you, Dave Max.

686
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: Well, I think that after all of these years, after

687
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: all these years, how in the world, because you know

688
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: they're talking about it.

689
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 2: You should really make this a simul cast because I'm

690
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: watching day.

691
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 1: It's hard. He's distracting, isn't it. He's a lovely man.

692
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: Okay? Now what about the claim.

693
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: That they've encountered or recovered new evidence as a result

694
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: of this effort on the part of the Innocence Project

695
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: and the La Innocence Project, the La Innocence Project. And

696
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, what do you what's the potential here

697
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: for this case moving trial?

698
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: And this is what I think. The judges just made

699
00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: two critical rulings. One she is allowing allowed it's done.

700
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 2: The con duct tape that was found on Lacey's body

701
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: has already been tested. The results are under seal. Now

702
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: let's think that through the duct tape on Lacey's body.

703
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: Is it duct tape that was placed on her body?

704
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: Is it some other item that have you ever seen?

705
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: Like those six pack what do you call those things?

706
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: Get those things that hold them together floating in the water.

707
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: I have that her body intersected without in the water.

708
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: So any that that place is a cesspool it's not

709
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: like it's crystal springs. No, it's all sorts of fisher people, gasoline, debris, waste,

710
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: all sorts of DNA is out there. So what could

711
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 2: be on that tape? Now, best case scenario in my world,

712
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson's fingerprints would be on that tape or his

713
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: DNA on the sticky side of the tape. Is that

714
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: going to happen? Probably not maybe, but any number of

715
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: foreign DNA debris cells are going to be on that tape.

716
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 2: It was down at the bottom of San Francisco Bay

717
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: where she was weighted down with weights. Okay, that's already

718
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: been tested. The second thing the judge allowed is testing

719
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: as it relates to a burned out van that had

720
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: a mattress in it in the area that they think

721
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: was blood. It may not even be blood. And I

722
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to relate back to Lacy Peterson. Well,

723
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: you know, I was going to tell you the fear

724
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 2: they have all new discovery, which you know discovery is

725
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: the state turns over items that they are told to

726
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 2: by the law, such as scientific reports that would be

727
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: medical examiner, crime lab, ballistics, all that that's scientific reports,

728
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: statements of witnesses names and addresses and phone numbers if

729
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: you've got them of witnesses Brady versus Maryland evidence which

730
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: is evidence that tends to exonerate the defendant or help

731
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: the defendant in the sense that one of your witnesses

732
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: has changed their stories, something about one of your witnesses

733
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: that could help the defendant. All that has to be

734
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: given to them. Now what I think is going to happen.

735
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: They've got wide discovery that occurred at the time of trial,

736
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 2: and they're going to see every avenue of investigation, which means,

737
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: let's go back to Travis Alexander. Okay, first, I'm sure

738
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: they looked at the roommates.

739
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: Yes, of course they looked at the roommates.

740
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: Did one of them do it? Now they're going to see, aha,

741
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: didn't you investigate Travis Alexander's roommate because at one point

742
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: you thought the roommate may have done it, And the

743
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: CoP's going to have to go, well yeah, and that's

744
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 2: going to be spun out. Just every person they investigated

745
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: is going to be a specter in this case. I

746
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: think that's what's going on.

747
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: So it's just going to be almost like total chaos.

748
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: It's going to be unleashed. Yes, yeah, well, I don't know.

749
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people I think it at minimum.

750
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: Do you think that he'll be granted a new trial.

751
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: I think it's possible.

752
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

753
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: However, if discovery is relegated to the new scientific testing. No,

754
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: I do not think that what's found in that van

755
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: is going to help the defense in any way. The

756
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: only way the duct tape found on her body could

757
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: help the defense is it may show some other debris. Yeah,

758
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 2: that occurred in the water met as you say, intersected

759
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: with the tape in the water. What they can do

760
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: with that, I don't know.

761
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be really hard. And here's the

762
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: other thing, because I know you've spent a lot of

763
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: time in evidence rooms over the years, and if there

764
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: is still any any retained evidence from this case, because

765
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: this case has been previously disposed of.

766
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 2: I told you about the case. Yeah, how'd this go,

767
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: mister Slayton, Yeah.

768
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: My boss, mister Slayton.

769
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: Now I remember, great great DNA, great great district attorney.

770
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: Excuse me, call me to his office and he says,

771
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: we got a reversal. Nancy, I'm okay, And I thought, oh,

772
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: dear Lord, please said, don't let it be one of

773
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: my kidses had got to be retried.

774
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: It was not.

775
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 2: It was the case. It was actually tried when I

776
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: was in law school, and it went all the way

777
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: up to the Fifth Circuit, one step below the US

778
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. And I can't believe the prosecutor did this.

779
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: And I know him, and he's a really good prosecutor.

780
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: He had he tried both defendants at the same time,

781
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 2: and they had interlocking statements, like they pointed the finger

782
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: at each other. That's disallowable under the US Constitution, because

783
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: what if say you and I rob a bank and

784
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: we shoot somebody in my statement, I go, Joe Scott

785
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: did it that idiot? You go, Nancy Grace did it

786
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: that idiot? If we both come the child together and

787
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: both the first statements come in and you don't take

788
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: the stand, I can't cross examine that statement. And the

789
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: defendant under the sixth Amendment has a full right to

790
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: cross examine all witnesses against him. Oh see what I mean?

791
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 2: So interlocking statements. No, they brought in interlocking statements. That

792
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: was the reversible error. So I got one of the

793
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 2: defendants to retry. I go to the crime scene. Yeah,

794
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 2: I mean, excuse me, I go the evidence locker. Yeah,

795
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: there was one X ray it was not of my

796
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: murder victim, who was the little brother of an Atlanta PD. Okay,

797
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 2: so you can screw this up. And a baseball hat

798
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: that said kiss my bass. I'm like, what do these

799
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: two pieces of evidence have to do with this case?

800
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 2: That's the physical evidence that was left. That was it?

801
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know when we're training people to be

802
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: even an occupation called evidence custodians, you know they are

803
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: in charge and they controlled the infamous chain that we

804
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: all mad. Oh yeah, you really could, and all the

805
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: little potholes along the way that you can run a

806
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: foul of you over and over again. And it's not

807
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: just physically securing the evidence, but how do you document

808
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 1: security of that evidence? And here's the other thing, when

809
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: do you know to dispose of evidence? Because if you

810
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: look at a Scott Peterson case, everybody thought that that

811
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: thing was over done and done. Oh my god, if

812
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: they call out.

813
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 2: For more in custody, can't stress enough? Yeah, okay, another story.

814
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: I'll try to be brief. I had a serial killer.

815
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: I could get them on one murder one. I needed

816
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: his DNA. We got his DNA. We chanced to the

817
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: crime lab. It matched, okay to what I wanted. It

818
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: wasn't DNA from this scene, but it was a DNA

819
00:45:54,960 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: some other item, but I still needed it. The APD

820
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 2: homicide detective had just lost his wife and he forgot

821
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 2: to sign. Oh dear Lord and heaven now where you know?

822
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: He took the guys DNA. He put it in a

823
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: sealed envelope. He took it to the crime lab. That

824
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: person that accepted it signed it. But this was like

825
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: a week before trial, and I saw his signature was

826
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: not on the envelope. So my chain was broken. I

827
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 2: went back to that lab and to the jail that day,

828
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: and I stood and watched through a glass window the

829
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: jail nurse take his DNA. I had her sign it,

830
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: didn't touch it. I watched her give it to my

831
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 2: investigator and we drove it to the crime lab and

832
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: retested it.

833
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: I mean, a serial fact, the fact that you were

834
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: able to But you know, you think about that, and

835
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: here's stuff that will keep you up late at night.

836
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: It does me at least, What did I miss? Is

837
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: there something along the way throughout my career? And I

838
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 1: know that I have. I know that I have over

839
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: the course of the years, I probably out of all

840
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: the cases I worked in New Orleans and Atlanta, and

841
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: they were homicides. I often think, you know those homicides

842
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: in particular, was there a serial perpetrator that was involved

843
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: in this? And probably something that I missed along the

844
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: way or my colleagues missed something we didn't pick up

845
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: in But I'm saying all this to make the point

846
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: that you never can predict the future. The only thing

847
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: you can do is truly when it comes to the

848
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: field of forensics. And I would say I would say

849
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: in the law as well, you have to be prepared,

850
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 1: and you do, and as rude as it is, you

851
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: have to expect the worst.

852
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 2: You another difficult crime saying what's up an arson?

853
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: Saying yes it is, it is, And the reason it's

854
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: very you have to. And the thing that I take

855
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: exception to is that many people, I think, for whatever reason,

856
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: they don't include arson investigators among those of us that

857
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: are forensic investigators. Many times, and I submit that arson

858
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: investigators are the most skilled forensic investigators that are out there.

859
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: It is and when you walk into a scene that.

860
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: I developed an expertise in arson.

861
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to. It is. It's very difficult

862
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: because when you go out to one of these scenes, Nancy,

863
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: even if there's a dead body there, everything looks the same.

864
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: It's all charred. It's all either charcoal color or darker

865
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: charcoal color. All you can make out of shapes and forms.

866
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: And these people are amazing that work in because they

867
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: can see things that we know. Our dog yeah, yeah,

868
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: I sure have so amazing. Yeah, to check out to

869
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: see if there's any accelerants at the scene and the

870
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: things that they.

871
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 2: Can find smell accelerant underwater.

872
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can. They can actually Cadaver dogs allegedly can

873
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: smell cadavers.

874
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: And I meant to ask them. We actually had John

875
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 2: Buehler on today, who worked with bro Kinney on the

876
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson case. Investigator. I meant to ask him about

877
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: the scent dog because I'm pretty sure in Lacy Peterson's case,

878
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: a dog tracked her from Covena where the house was.

879
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: I thought that I'd heard that.

880
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: I was all the way to the marina, the boat launch,

881
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: and then along the tree line and then out to

882
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: the edge of the water and it stopped. That's amazing.

883
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: It truly is because their spectrum that they're on the

884
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: dog's watching a dog. I know, it's amazing.

885
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: That's witness I ever had I coroad that dog.

886
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they're not.

887
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: Can't do much with him on cross examination.

888
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: No you can't. But you know, I've seen forensic pathologists

889
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: who can't do much of it on cross examination either.

890
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, so with in you know, and there's so

891
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: many different areas that we that we cover in forensics,

892
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: and I think that one of the things that that's

893
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: very curious anytime somebody says anytime somebody says, well what

894
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: do you do and you say, well, I'm a forensic scientist,

895
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: the next the next question should be, well what kind

896
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: of forensic scientist are you? Because it's like, if you

897
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: have a broken leg, you're not going to see a psychiatrist,

898
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: hopefully you can go to an orthopedic surgeon. Well, if

899
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: you're a forensic scientist, you have to state and understand

900
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: who you are. And that's the biggest thing. There's a

901
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: lot of people that believe that they are that they

902
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,479
Speaker 1: are in fact an expert in every field, and that's

903
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, when you watch television, for instance, that's one

904
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: of the biggest disparities. They will take one person and

905
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: make them an expert in multiple fields. And I know

906
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: you've run across this, Nancy, because so many people.

907
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: You maybe remember something funny. People always come up to

908
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 2: me and want me to write a will for them.

909
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 2: I might listen, either get killed or kill somebody, then

910
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 2: come talk to make goodbye.

911
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: I know precisely what dark thing about a will. However,

912
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: you are constitutional experts, so I'll go with you on that.

913
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: If I have constitutional questions.

914
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 2: Will like three in my life, they were always like extremes.

915
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: They worked out.

916
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: Okay, I was hoping after this taping, could you help

917
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: me establish an LLC. Well, look, Nancy, we're gonna shut

918
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: it down.

919
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: Don't we have a ribbon?

920
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah we do. Oh look there you go. H Nancy.

921
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: It has been just a pure joy to have you here.

922
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: And actually this is our this is our first tape.

923
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 2: And I believe you got to go to Crime con UK.

924
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: I know, isn't that something a little weasel? I love

925
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: being over there. I love going to UK and got

926
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: there is not there's not. I'd rather be, as they say,

927
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: as I often say, I'd rather be Alabama comfortable than

928
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: La rich any day. I love to be here. I

929
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: love to come home to my people here. But over there,

930
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: we're trying to establish relationships with universities at our kids

931
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: here in rural Alabama can go there and go study

932
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: because there ain't no there ain't no better teacher than

933
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: travel as far as I'm concerned. But we're going to

934
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: shut it down for the day. And I got to

935
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: tell you, Nancy, what I.

936
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: Build out, jos Gotte Morgan again, never ends, never ends.

937
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: Send me the build Nancy.

938
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 2: Right, So coming Dave Matt, make me sound young and

939
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 2: glamorous and make him sound old and decrepit. Can you

940
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: do that? No?

941
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's close this thing out. Coming to

942
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 1: you live from Jacksonville State University, the Gem of the Hills.

943
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 1: This is Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Backs.