WEBVTT - Kushner Faces Senate Intelligence Panel in Interview (Audio) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.400 Jared Kushner, President Trump's son in law and close advisor, 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:07.600 faced questioning from congressional investigators for the first time today. 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:11.400 In his prepared statement to the Senate Intelligence Committee, Kushner said, quote, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.080 I did not collude nor know of anyone else in 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:18.320 the campaign who colluded with any foreign government. Kushner confirmed 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.480 for contacts with Russians during his father in law's presidential 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.040 campaign in the transition, but he described the encounters as 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.760 un memorable. We're going to go live in a few 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.920 minutes to Jared Kushner as he speaks and makes a 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.360 statement to the press outside the White House. Our guests 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.520 are Nato Mariotti, partner at Thompson Cockburn, and Andrew Wright, 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:44.400 professor at Savannah Law School. Renato, let's start with the arrangement. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.720 Why is Kushner, at his request, not being questioned under 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.360 oath and what impact does that have on using what 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.800 he said? Well, it's it's it's not uncommon for witnesses 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:02.440 to be permitted to give an interview that's not in public, uh, 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.399 and that's not under oath. And the reason that Congressional 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.480 committees do that is because it is a crime to 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.440 lie to congress regardless of whether you're under oath or not. 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:18.920 And so Congress UM I think feels comfortable with that, 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.080 you know, with having an off the record interview for 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.880 that reason. I think it has other advantages as well. 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.319 I mean, when there's a public uh interview that is 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.399 excuse me, a public testimony that is under oath, uh, 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.280 you know, members of the committee can be more focused 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:39.600 on what the political um appearance of their questioning might 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.400 be as opposed to actually getting the job done and 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.760 asking questions that will generate the evidence that the committee 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.559 needs going forward. Andrew, let's talk a bit about the 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.080 substance of what Mr Kushner said, at least a prepared 0:01:55.160 --> 0:02:00.360 statement UM that he gave to Congress. He described a 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.200 number of meetings that with various different people with some 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.679 contract of the Russian government. Is this the sort of 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.360 you know, the way he paints it is it is 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.840 this this sort of activity one would expect from campaign 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.000 officials to be having with a foreign government during the 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.120 course of a presidential campaign. I think it's pretty clear 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.800 that the Russian government was trying to curry favor and 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:29.440 perhaps infiltrate the Trump campaign. I think UM plenty of 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.320 UM folks on presidential campaigns. I've worked on one or 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.880 two as well. UM find this um number of meetings 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:39.600 and the and the nature of some of them to 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.120 be abnormal. UM. Certainly, you know, one would expect that 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.079 during a transition period there would be some contacts with 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.440 foreign governments UM trying to establish relations with the incoming president. 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.720 But I do think that the nature of the contact 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.040 UH is a little bit strange. And you know, my 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.480 colleagues in the Obama administration suggested that they certainly didn't 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.520 have any meetings that were analogous to these during the 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:09.480 campaigns in two thousand eight or Nado. One of the 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.640 meetings that people have been talking about a lot is 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:17.400 the one that Donald Trump Jr. And Paul Maniford and 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:22.040 Kushner attended UM with and the list keeps growing of 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.639 who was there. So he completely downplayed his attendance at 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.840 that meeting, said he didn't even know what it was about. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.520 That he asked his assistant to get him out of 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.920 there in an email. Did that work as far as 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.560 what you saw? Well, first of all, at the starting point, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.200 I think it's important to note that you know, as 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.320 you did, that he is trying to distance himself from that, 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.280 from what happened there, and more importantly, from knowing what 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.280 the purpose of the meeting was and who he was 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.080 meeting with. And I think it's important for a couple 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.480 of reasons. One, it shows that his attorneys realized that 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.640 it's problematic legally, UH to be at a meeting for 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.480 the purpose of seeking aid from a foreign government. Um. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.680 But separate and apart from that, it also he is 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.080 an important thing for him because he needs to disclose 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.360 his contacts with foreign government since the extent he thought 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.719 that this was a representative of foreign government that would 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.600 need to be disclosed. Um. But was it effective. I thought, 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.920 you know, it looked like he was trying to provide 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.080 um excuses and you know, to get around what I 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.160 think is a very obvious piece of evidence that he 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.440 did know what was gonna happened in that meeting, which 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.560 is an email that was directed to him. I mean, 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.120 he's saying he didn't read it and he didn't read 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:44.560 it carefully. UM. And it's not an uncommon thing to 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.920 have happened when there's a criminal investigation, is that people um, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.880 you know, don't read um you know well allege that 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.920 they haven't read emails that are problematic. I will say, 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.760 obviously Mr Krishner is a wealthy person and very busy 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.880 and has a lot of responsibilities, and um, the burden 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.880 would ultimately be on the government to prove that he 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.400 knew what the government is going to allege she knew 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.920 when he took that meeting. Well, Andrew, let's also talk 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.800 about another meeting that was discussed in his statement was 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.159 a meeting he had with a a Russian banker named 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.120 Sergey Gorkov, who's the head of a state owned Russian 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.679 bank and allied with President Putin of Russia. Um, And 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.200 according to Mr Krishner's statement, they didn't talk about sanctions 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.679 on Russia at all. And they also didn't talk about 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:39.640 any loans or banking that Mr Krishner's private business has had. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:44.560 And so, you know, I wonder how, you know, investigators 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.159 are going to look at a statement like that about 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.000 us with a you know, about what he would have 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.120 discussed with this banker. Yeah, well, first of all, it's 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.400 kind of an extraordinary meeting. When I was reading his 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.000 prepared statement, my eyes kind of jumped out of my 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.440 head when I saw that it was the Russian ambassador 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.679 who arranged that meeting, was quite insistent, according to Kushner, 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.120 about having that taking that meeting, and that the Russian 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.440 banker was described as, um, you know, very close to 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.800 President Putin. So the you know, I'm not sure what 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.000 work it does to suggest that, you know, that that 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.120 there was some sort of distance. Um, this was clearly 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.320 a Russian government operation. He even brought him a painting 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.440 of his you know, family's hometown in Belarus, So it's 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.960 quite coordinated. Um. So you know, in terms of his 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:34.160 statement about no sanctions, clearly Russian government is quite interested 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.880 in sanctions. And so you know, that would be one 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.839 of those things that we'd have to test Kushner's credibility 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.159 about whether that was done. Um, it's hard to imagine 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.880 that it was just purely pleasantries if the ambassador was 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.159 so insistent about having the meeting in the first place. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:50.760 The other point I'll just make is that Kushner now 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.680 owns those statements for all future investigative activity. He's now 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.240 said declaratively that there were no personal business dealings discussed 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.280 and that there were no ancients discussed, So he will 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.440 have to stand behind that from now on. And also, Renato, 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.800 this was not in his statement, But last week he 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.200 filed an amended financial disclosure that included seventy seven items 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.200 worth at least ten million dollars that were described as 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:21.320 quote inadvertently omitted from a March filing. The disclosure has 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.840 been revised thirty nine times since its initial filing on 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.920 March nine. Can you make an excuse after it's the 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:36.280 thirty ninth time or at thirty seven or well, look 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.680 it is always it's evidence. So what the government has 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.800 to prove is that the omissions were knowing and willful, Okay, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:45.360 So in other words, that it was something that he 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.560 did on purpose, essentially, you know, showing that he had 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.240 an intend to deceive or you know, or intend to 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.400 um an intend to mislead the government or hi what 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.280 he was doing from the government as opposed to really 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.760 making a mistake or or something like that. The the 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.760 number of times that you revised to form is certainly 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.080 one piece of evidence that the government is going to 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:15.000 use to show that he knowingly and willfully made those omissions. Now, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.880 of course, what his camp is going to be saying, 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.120 and the defense would say, is that he's a very 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.760 sloppy person, a very disorganized person, a very busy person. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.840 He's got a big staff. Maybe they're sloppy, maybe they're disorganized. Um. Obviously, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.800 the number of omissions are an important piece of evidence. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.840 I think the other you know, you know, piece of 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.480 evidence that you would be looking at is you know, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.720 what what were the omissions of and what what was 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.560 he omitting? And you know, if, for example, some of 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.880 the later revisions included meetings that were more and more problematic, 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.559 that might go to suggest that those revisions were done 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.960 with the intent to hide from the government as opposed 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:02.800 to merely uh, a clerical oversight. Well speaking Andrew of 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.160 you know, how people are going to assess the arguments 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.720 and statements in here and in One of the things 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.000 that I thought was interesting about the statement is that 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:17.040 there's a sort of bold faced statement about Um that 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.840 the thing that's gotten a lot of publicity, which is 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.240 whether or not Mr Kushner was trying to set up 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:26.800 some secret back channel communications with the with the Russian government. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.480 And he says that the fact that he was trying 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.640 to start a dialogue on that with the Russian government 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.280 after election day should be viewed as strong evidence that 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.599 he was not aware of one that existed before election day, 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.360 So is that, Um, you know, is that argument going 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.439 to be persuasive to people? Well, one of the things 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.960 to note is that Kushner doesn't have and his lawyers 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.600 don't have access to all the facts because and presumably 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.479 the Intelligence Committee will have access to the signals, intelligence 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.760 and other things that might lead to contradictions to that statement. 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.400 We've been talking about Ared Kushner's a testimony today after 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.600 not testimony, but questioning from congressional investigators for the first 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:10.840 time today, and um, that was not one under oath. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.960 We've been talking with Ernato Mariotti, partner at Thompson Cockburn 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.520 and Andrew Wright, professor at Savannah Law School. Andrew, we 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:23.200 just heard a very very short statement, no questions from 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:28.280 Jared Kushner. What was your reaction? I think it was 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.560 just a top line, blanket denial, and it will give 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:36.000 the media some sound and camera video to run with 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.080 today on the story. It will be very interesting to 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.520 see if there are any leaks or characterizations by members 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.880 of the Senate Intelligence Committee about how that meeting went 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:45.760 later in the day. So I look forward to seeing 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.720 the story developed throughout the day as we get more information. Bernano, 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.360 he mentioned he'll be talking to House investigators. How long 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.920 do we expect that he's going to be questioned for well, 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.520 I mean, I think he may be questioned for hours 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.440 by both by ultimately both committees, and I doubt that 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.360 this is going to be the last time that Mr 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.840 Krishner's gonna ask questions. So I thought Andy brought up 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.160 a good point when he said that ultimately, uh Krishner 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.040 is going to have locked himself into a certain set 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.959 of facts here, and that's you know, you know what 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.600 why the the statement was so carefully worded. I think 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.640 you know, of all the people swirled up in this investigation, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.560 the person whose legal strategy I've been mostly impressed with 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.080 has been Jared Kushner's because he's stayed off Twitter and 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:34.240 stayed off radio and TV shows and is very careful, 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.720 been very careful about what he says to the press, 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.439 and it's generally always been through lawyers. This is the 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.640 first time we've heard in his own words an account 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.840 of what's happened, and ultimately he'll he'll be he'll be 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.640 held to that in future. Questioning Andrew, how smart is 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.720 it that he had a closed door meeting but he 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.480 put out a statement, and now he makes a statement 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:59.600 before before the cameras which reiterates what he said, so 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:03.400 he as his his message out there. Yeah, I mean 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.480 he's generally getting to drive the message today on game day. UM. 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.679 You know, obviously the fact that he's doing the interview 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:11.720 is going to dredge up all the previous reporting and 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.000 that'll get re recited in the news cycles today. But 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.719 he's getting to put his spin on and that was 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.120 really one of the chief benefits of negotiating to a 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:23.720 private interview for him, um, rather than a public hearing. 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:25.920 But on the committee side, they get a lot of 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.720 benefits out of this. They've now locked him into certain statements, 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.280 and they haven't given up any of their prerogative to 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.320 be able to bring him back under subpoena voluntarily to 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.880 testify in front of the committee um and in front 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.760 of the public. So I think both sides came away 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.439 um as a legal matter with some benefit to this, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.240 And Jared Kushner's media strategy is at the center from 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.920 his side of that negotiation. NATO. UM. So just in 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.880 terms of how this will proceed, You've got the special counsel, 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.280 you've got the committees. Once they get these statements from 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.160 Kushner and others under oath, where where does it go 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.040 from here? So not under Earth, I should say where 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.400 does it go now? So I would expect that that 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.880 Mueller's team will be, you know, has already been, you know, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.920 giving regular reports to Congress about what they're doing and 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.760 coordinating with Congress so that this way there's no um, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.320 there's no way in which either of the investigations are 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.800 undermining the others so that they can work in concert. 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.679 I know there have been public reports that have suggested 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.360 just that. Uh. And and frankly, from what I've seen 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.640 to you know, the Congressional committees have been very deferential 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.440 of Mueller and the investigation that he's doing. So what 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.000 I would expect is that this interview before Congress would 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.320 be before Congressional committee, would be a piece of evidence 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.800 that Mueller would use. I expect that at some point 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.679 in the future, Mueller will be potentially, you know, seeking 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:59.400 interviews with many others, uh, including Mr Kushner, and it'll 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.920 be interesting to see if they agree to sit for 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.719 an interview with him. He may try to compel testimony 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.920 before a grand jury. UH. And ultimately that process can 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.160 can take you many months to unfold Andrew. So now 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.520 we're back to Muller and the investigation, and that leads 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.360 us to President Trump and some of his tweets over 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.480 the weekend. The Washington Post reported last week that he's 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.160 been discussing pardons for his aids and even for himself. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:30.120 On Saturday, he tweeted that quote, while all agree, the 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:34.560 US president has the complete power to pardon, so that's 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.200 certainly an overstatement if the president includes himself in that 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:42.400 pardon power. Is there any indication in the Constitution, in 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:48.160 the case law, or anywhere that the president can pardon himself? Well, 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.000 it's a slightly trickier question than I'd like it to be, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.440 to be quite honest. It's the Constitution clearly limits pardon 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.840 power in cases of impeachment, and it clearly only applies 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.920 to federal offenses. Is the question of whether the pardon 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.240 the president can pardon himself? Um? I think is something 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.760 that the Framers didn't probably devent devote a lot of 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.320 time too, because it was such an absurd notion. UM. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.000 The OLC, Office of Legal Counsel of the Department of 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.360 Justice issued an opinion UH several days before Nixon resigned, 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.120 indicating that it was not permissible or constitutional for the 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:28.200 president to issue a pardon for himself on the theory 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.360 that no man can be a judge in his own case, 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.120 which is a natural law theory. Others have argued that 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.800 it would violate the structure of the Constitution. Some have 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.360 made a textual argument that the idea of the president 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.560 granting a pardon requires two parties to that transaction. Therefore 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.800 he can't be both the pardoner and the pardon me. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.200 I think that has the better side of the argument, 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:49.960 but there are a lot of scholars on the other 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.320 side and legal commentators who believe that there is no 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.640 limitation it would have to be expressed, and that the 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.320 president might have the power to do it as a 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.200 political matter or as a matter of stewardship of our 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.800 government that's supposed to be a nation of laws rather 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.280 than individual leaders. I think it would be quite absurd, 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.920 and I would hope, uh that there would be such 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.400 a violent political reaction um that that would not be 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.440 permitted by any sitting president. We're not knowing about thirty 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.880 seconds we have left. At what point might we see 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.920 the president seriously considering pardons for other members of the 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:27.200 administration beside himself. I think it would only be when 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.680 they are in very serious legal jeopardy, so until one. 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:33.680 One thing you need to understand about pardons is that 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.440 they extinguish your Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate yourself. 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.080 So um, there you know. It may be for right now, 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.400 it's in the it's in the president's interest to have 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.600 certain people not before to testify about topics that might 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.280 be problematic. As soon as he gives that that pardon, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.600 than than that person loses that right and would be 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.680 held in contempt if they refuse to testify. So I 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:58.840 expect him to do so at the last possible moment. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.480 Thank you all for being on Bloomberg Law. It has 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.760 been a fascinating discussion. That's Renato Mariotti. He's a partner 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:10.600 at Thompson Colburne and Andrew Wright, professor at Savannah Law School.