1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Ladies 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, welcome back to the show. My name is Noel, 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: and you are you, hopefully listeners. My name is Been, 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: our colleague and confidante, our our close associate, our what 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: some might call ride or die. Be at that shore. 8 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick is on on a mission that he mentioned earlier, 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: not so much a secret mission, but a mission nonetheless, 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: and he will be returning very soon. You may be 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: able to catch him on a live show here and there, 12 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: but you didn't hear it from us. However, this does 13 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: not mean that it's just Nuel I and the studio today. No, 14 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: we are. We are thrilled to have a special guest 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: with us. This is a friend of the show and 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: a friend of mine. Um, we've known each other for 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: a while. Uh. This is an instructor at Kennesaw State University, 18 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: also pretty well known writer on religious studies, on the 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: intersection of technology and the occult, which we'll get to 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: spoiler alert, uh, as well as philosophy and as a 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: matter of fact, when we were talking about this off 22 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: the air, who were like, how do I how do 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: we encapsulate the stuff we're gonna talk to today? A 24 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: lot of wear, a lot of hats, A lot of hats, 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. Damian Patrick Williams, gonna be with you 26 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: guys today. Thanks for having me. Hey, yeah, thank you 27 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: so much for agreeing to go down a couple of 28 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: crazy rabbit holes with us. Thank The rabbit holes are 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: the best kind of rabbit holes. Yes, as far as 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: we're considered on this show, they are the only kind 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: of rabbit holes. Before we get to today's episode, Damien, Um, 32 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: there's a thing that Nolan, Matt and I do where 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: we introduced listeners to each other. It's something we like 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: to call shout out corners. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: it is the return of the shout out corner. And 36 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: we have a few people who have requested a shout out. 37 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: Mr Brown, do you want to do the honors? Oh? 38 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: Why not? Uh, here's one for Tony Hernandez. Shout out 39 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: to Tony because he was listening to the Superbugs episode 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: while fighting an ongoing infection. Hopefully it wasn't a super infection. 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: Best of luck to you, sir, and shout out to Gwendolen, 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: who said it was a life goal of hers to 43 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: receive a shout out on the show. Check that off 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: the bucket list, Gwendolen, no doubt doubt, We've got We've 45 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: got one more here for today, and that would be 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: Staff Sergeant Adam Denshar, who wanted to know our thoughts 47 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: on simulated reality, which is something that Damian, you and 48 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: I and Nolan are going to get into in a 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: future episode. Right, Yes, yes, very much, And that's our 50 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: shout out corner for today. So I am so excited 51 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: that we're we're going to take a look at today's 52 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: topic because it's something that we have talked about at 53 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: times in our video series. We've touched on it a 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: little bit. UM alchemy, alchemy? So what what? What? What 55 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: is alchemy? UM? I think the best way to think 56 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: about alchemy is to think about the historical position it 57 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: tends to occupy. UM. You look back at like the 58 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: Dark and Middle Ages in both Europe and and a 59 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: corresponding time frame but even earlier than that back in China, 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: and you can see this drive to try to change 61 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: one thing into another. In the European alchemical set, you've 62 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: got this thing where everybody was trying to find a 63 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: way to turn lead into gold, which is like the 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: the the tip top thing that pretty much everybody knows 65 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: about alchemy, right Chrystopia, I think. And so this idea 66 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: of being able to transmute, and that's the big word, 67 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: and alchemical processes transmutation, being able to transmute one thing 68 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: to another thing, taking various minerals, various metals, various substances 69 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: and solutions and turning things into other things. I guess 70 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: when I think about alchemy as it's portrayed, you know, 71 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: in popular culture and such, there always seems to be 72 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: a mystical element to it. But then a lot of 73 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: times when I hear it describes is the way you've 74 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: done it sounds much more like a precise science. But 75 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: in reality, isn't it kind of somewhere in between exactly 76 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: what I was about to say. It's like you can't 77 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: separate the one from the other. Or if you look 78 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: at the the Hermetic well, hermetic philosophers, practitioners of what 79 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: were known as the Hermetic arts, these people were they 80 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: were very very precise about what it was that they 81 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: thought they were doing. There were specifical formulations, specific formulations, 82 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: um specific uh combinations and operations that needed to be undergone, 83 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: processes that needed to be very very carefully maintained. For instance, 84 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: in some of the some of the things that would 85 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: now in the modern age perhaps seem like spells or 86 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: rituals were considered something like a scientific and experiments that 87 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: must be reproducible exactly. And if it's not reproducible, then 88 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: it it fails. It's not it's not alchemy. It's like, 89 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,239 Speaker 1: if it's not reproducible, if you can't put this down 90 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: in a text for a further alchemical student, a further 91 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: alchemists beyond yourself to engage in, then then it's a failure. 92 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: It needs further study. You you've obviously missed something if 93 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: it can't be reproduced, right, And we had spoken about 94 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: this before off air. I believe it was John d 95 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: who had some that we have been discussing, who had 96 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: some incredibly specific rules in terms of both process and 97 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: materials for his alchemical rituals. Yes, and D was at 98 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: a time he was perhaps the best known alchemist. And 99 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, the popular imagination um. John D was the 100 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: spy master for Queen Elizabeth the First. He was her 101 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: secret agent, he was her advisor, he was her her 102 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: chief scientists, she was he was master magician to the Queen. Um. 103 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: There was a rumor that went around that for a 104 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: while there that he used to sign his letters double 105 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: O seven UM. That has been in no way, shape 106 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: or form ever fully substantiated. But it's a cool rumor. 107 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: It's a really cool rumor, Like that's where Ian Fleming 108 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: got it. So overall, I mean like a skill set 109 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: that definitely lends itself to subterfuge, you know, pulling the 110 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: wool over people's eyes exactly, being able to, if at 111 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: all possible, misdirect, being able to alter the perceptions of 112 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: the people that you have directly in front of you, 113 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: or perhaps not directly in front of you, but to 114 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: build up an aura, to build up a sense of mystery, 115 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: a sense of power that others might not be able 116 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: to adequately match. So how does that tie into the 117 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: results that we're talking about? Because I think he had 118 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: some pretty extensive journals that one might consider to be 119 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: scientific notes of sorts when it comes to this alchemy 120 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: that he did. Absolutely so d in his processes as 121 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: he was doing the work. John d is famous amongst 122 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: the cult circles anyway, famous for his work on the 123 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: Enochian texts Um. He does this work wherein he communes 124 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: with angels. There's no really, there's no other way that 125 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: he that you can put what he describes here. He 126 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: performs rituals, performs uh magical and alchemical operations to put 127 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: himself in a state of mind and a state of 128 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: physical and metaphysical being where he can talk to angels 129 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: and receive transmissions of their language. And then he transcribes 130 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: it down the languages the Enochian text exactly and so 131 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: the like the the Enoch or the Enochian is. It 132 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,119 Speaker 1: takes its name from the biblical character of Enoch. The 133 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: Book of Enoch is an apocryphal text in Um Christianity. 134 00:08:53,800 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: It's it's providence is dubious, but it's It tells the 135 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: story of a man Uh named Enoch, who, at the 136 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: time of his death Um does not die and does 137 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: not then you know, spiritually transform into then a spiritual 138 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: being that goes to heaven to live with God. Instead, 139 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: Enoch is raised up. He is turned into Uh, an 140 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: angel at the time of his death, and so he 141 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: becomes the voice of God, he becomes the bridge for 142 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: humanity and divinity. And so the Enochian language, as D 143 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: describes it, is that bridge language. It is that that moment, 144 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: that way of communicating between humans and the divine. And 145 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: this is a fascinating concept, and it's one that we 146 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: see bandied about to some degree or another in a 147 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: lot of popular fiction, almost in a in like a 148 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: referential way. This transformative work. Um, you know, there's it's 149 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: like the whole Joseph Campbell of Frasier's work, you know, 150 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: with the dying and reborn God. And it's strange that 151 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: we see so many of the same stories echoing through 152 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: the halls of time. But there's one question that I 153 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: have to ask, did anyone successfully reproduce these work that 154 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: we know of, not in the kind of publicly claimed 155 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: reproductions of you know, here some huge, big results that 156 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: D claim to have gotten, Like because of these work, 157 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,479 Speaker 1: You've got an entire tradition of Western magicians and alchemists 158 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: that come along, Hermetic philosophers, as many of them styled themselves, 159 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: that came along afterwards. And what they did was, you know, 160 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: they said, they've managed to reproduce the results. They also 161 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: said that if you didn't yourself see the results, it 162 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: was because you had not undergone the processes to be 163 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: able to see the results. That in order to direct 164 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: the experience this, you have to go through the transformative process. 165 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: You have to perform the process yourself in order to 166 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: actually be able to recognize what's happening, in order to 167 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: be able to hear it, see it, feel it yourself. Now, 168 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: that's that's the fascinating point. I want to I want 169 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: to go back just for um, just for uh some 170 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: background painting here for the audience. Uh, ladies and gentlemen. 171 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: When we're talking about the origin stuff. Here Noel and 172 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Damian pointing out the we're pointing out that alchemy, as 173 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: this ancient art involving into a science, took place in 174 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: more than just Western Europe. Most Western alchemy I traces 175 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: back I believed to Hellenistic Egypt, and the the completely 176 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: separate branch, one could argue would be more Eastern. But 177 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: in both cases, what we're seeing is the the origin 178 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: of a tempting to logically categorize, quantifies somehow and explore 179 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: the universe in a in a rational way other than 180 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: just saying, oh crap, the sun's here again. I hope 181 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: it's not angry with me today. You know, Chinese alchemy, 182 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: for instance, is deeply tied to daois um um and 183 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: the Daoist what's oftentimes considered dallast magical practice um. But 184 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: what that looks like today when we look at what 185 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: they were doing in the operations that they were undergoing 186 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: in that process, we would call that, in a very 187 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: real sense, medicine. Yeah, we want to call that if 188 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: we wanted to make a kind of linear progression story 189 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: out of it. And the story that, you know, because 190 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: it's a narrative, is about making choices and might or 191 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: might not have merit to somebody else who hears it. 192 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: But if we wanted to tell a story about it, 193 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: we could tell a story about Chinese alchemy becoming modern 194 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: day pharmacology. It's about balancing various energy within yourself. It's 195 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: about using potions to extend life. It's about engaging in 196 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: the balancing of various elements and energies. And one of 197 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: the terms that got used in the old days was humorous. 198 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: That's really interesting because I mean a lot of that 199 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: is still very much alive today. And you know, massage 200 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: therapy and reflexology and you know, essential oils and all 201 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I mean, you know, certainly 202 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: there are those that would you know, poo poo it, 203 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: but I mean the people practice it and people swear 204 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: on it. Eflutely. I would argue perhaps that that is 205 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: more alive today than maybe some of the more transmutational 206 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: forms of alchemy. Well, this is getting ahead of ourselves 207 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: a little bit perhaps, But like a lot of the 208 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: people that I talked to, and when we talk about, 209 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, the history of alchemy, and we talk about 210 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: you know, alchemy finds its footing in the modern era 211 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: in plenty first century as a material science. So you've 212 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: got let's let's put a pin in that which this is, 213 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: this is, this is a good and this is a 214 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: great point. I want to draw a parallel here as well. 215 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: So if we are, if we are telling this story right, 216 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: if what we would consider alchemy in China ultimately becomes pharmacology, 217 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: we have seen that there is substance to the use 218 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: of herbal medicine in in this in this sphere, right, 219 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: this is not a placebo effect in all cases, but 220 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: I also I wonder if the Western branch of alchemy 221 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: leads to well, as you as you said, uh, meta materials, 222 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: which we'll get to, but also some of the origins 223 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: of chemistry are found in alchemy. Is that correct? That 224 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: is absolutely correct, because we're talking, as we previously noted about, 225 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, people who are trying to reproduce results, they're 226 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: talking about building and working with elements that they are 227 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: beginning in this way to understand and what we consider 228 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: a more fundamental way. The way that we look at 229 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: elements in chemistry now, the way that we think about 230 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: the atomic structure of things was unknown at that point 231 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: in time. There was vague hints if we look back 232 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: at like Democratus and Epicurus back in the Greeks of 233 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote atomic theory, but that was not 234 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: the kind of robust, you know, electron shells and protons 235 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: and neutrons kind of chemical theory that we have today. Um. 236 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: It was instead at that point in time about well, 237 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: there are base elements, there are elements of the earth. 238 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: There are elements that are more solid, and then there 239 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: are more rarefied elements. There are more refined elements, elements 240 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: like gold, like silver, like platinum, and those elements. If 241 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: you leave elements of the earth alone for long enough, 242 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: they'll become there's kind of more rare fied element. They 243 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: will evolve into it on their own. So our job 244 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: as alchemists is to figure out the process by which 245 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: those base elements turn into the more rarefied elements, and 246 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: to then replicate that process, to control that process, to 247 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: manipulate that process for ourselves. Ah. And this gets into 248 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: gets into something fascinating. So there is a bit of 249 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: an occultation, a bit of a conspiratorial aspect to alchemy. 250 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: There is a bit of stuff they don't want you 251 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: to know, because all of these works moving a base 252 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: element to something more rarefied, more pure, are a microcosmic 253 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: example of something else, which is the big the big 254 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: elephant in the room, the great work. Yes, and we'll 255 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: get to that after a word from our sponsor. The 256 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: morning after the party, I'm mop. It's the second time 257 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,479 Speaker 1: I've mopped since I moved in four months ago, the 258 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: first being yesterday morning before the party. I've reached the 259 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: point in my life where I know how comfortable I 260 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: am being a slub, but I really don't want my 261 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: friends to know, mostly not mac. Her music lays down 262 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: the rhythm for my swipes and slashes, as it did 263 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: for dishwashing before this, and living room recombobulation before that. Yes, 264 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that it's my third time today 265 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: through the album she gave me. But don't judge. It's 266 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: sad and brash, imperfect, and every thrumb placed through me 267 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: like the reverberation of a laugh half an inch above 268 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: hot skin, like the stubs of her hair soft through 269 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: my fingers. It's in the third chorus of my favorite song, 270 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: the ones she covered last Showcase, that something disjoints. I've 271 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: gotten the breath ahead of the lyrics. My mop sweeping 272 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: to the downbeaten seat of the back, and that creek 273 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: not a cat on the floorboards, that both are in 274 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: their own sunbeams, flat on the couch. It came from 275 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: the album Mop, Back and Bucket. I moved to my 276 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: phone and skipped the song back to the beginning. It's 277 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: all normal, and the cats have adjusted their antennadish ears 278 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: in the way that means they're ignoring me on purpose now, 279 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: So I ring out the wet yarns again and I'm 280 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: daydreaming about backup vocals. When there it is an extra word, 281 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: lilting through that third line and almost off key and 282 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: emphasized by its own tact on beat, and a moment 283 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: later that noise nothing like the hardwoods, now that I 284 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: hear it. It's a guttering grind, a warped door against 285 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: warped frame, muffled behind the rest of the track. Weird 286 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: that I didn't notice it before, but I figured it 287 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: for low fi charms. Some studio flots them, the mandolin 288 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: player bringing back another couple of beers before the next song, 289 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: or whatever. I should keep cleaning, Max said, should text 290 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: me later, maybe come back over. But something in my 291 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: mind keeps fluttering over that in this step, the mathematical 292 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: improbability of the pattern mop in bucket. I pick up 293 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: my phone and wind the song back, finger dragging over 294 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: a smooth screen, and this time it's expected, and I 295 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: sing along, punctuate the beat with a slap on my thigh, 296 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: and suddenly it's sensical, satisfying, even like picking a scab 297 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: or popping a zip. Even the stuttering scrape that comes 298 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: after is a strange comfort. Then I register heat on 299 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: my nape and turn blinking into brightness. The door that 300 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: never was is open, and the eyes beyond are burning. Burning, 301 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: m n burn, cleanse the clutter of this old world, 302 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: and open the door that never was with a Hermes 303 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: mop find them wherever ancient hidden doorways may lead. Use 304 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: only as directed and only in conjunction with Hermes approved 305 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: buckets and other Hermes Household products. Hermiseusehold pducts are not 306 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: responsible for any of the the following sid effects of necromancic 307 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: capitler aspeciation, canary wing, birdie left the court stone, poisoned wells, moonless, sabit, transpantation, transubstantiation, 308 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: unintended resurrection, gall dropsy, stroke, broken string, missing in order, 309 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: and costom. Herme's household is a subsidiary of illumination Global unlimited. 310 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So Damien, what is this 311 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: great work? Well, well, we're talking about the idea of 312 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: the great work. We're usually referencing a kind of formulation, 313 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: a kind of conceptualization about the magical process of refining oneself. 314 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: So rather than taking a metal lead in creating a 315 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: metal like gold from it, we're taking a base human right, 316 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: base soul, the base nature of ourselves, base meaning animal, 317 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: like base, meaning you know, in the sense of we 318 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: have our drives that are for food and for sex, 319 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: and for comfort and for shelter. But those drives are 320 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: their their base. They're basic. They are not refined drives. 321 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: Those are not the drives that we ought to be 322 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: shooting for. They are, if need be yes, present, but 323 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: they're not which should drive our lives. They're not what 324 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: should make us who we are. Right, So this base 325 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: nature that we have needs to be refined through the 326 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: process of the great work into something pure, and in 327 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: many cases it's seen as something pure again, that is 328 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: back to what we used to be. So there becomes 329 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: this kind of um Abrahamic Judea Christian Islamic kind of 330 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: sense of the fall, the the imperfection of humans as 331 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: being the result of the work of humans or the 332 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: doings of humans. And so if we can do what 333 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: we can to recapture that kind of preden i fall moment, 334 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: if we can recapture that and turn ourselves back into 335 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: that through an integration with nature, through understanding the processes 336 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: of nature as nature works, through imbuing ourselves with the 337 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: same transmutational processes, the same willing control that nature has, 338 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: then we can turn ourselves again, We can make ourselves 339 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: again into that kind of perfect, rarefied golden state. So 340 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: the Great Work is ultimately a redemptive act. Many see 341 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: it that way in many ways. Yeah, many see it 342 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: that way. Um. Some see it as an apotheosis. Some 343 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: see the culmination of the Great Work as not becoming 344 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: again like we used to be. But to reach a 345 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: level as with God, that is, to put ourselves, we 346 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: had to come down from this quote unquote pure state. 347 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: We had to fall, We had to be in this 348 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: kind of process of being in the mud and trying 349 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: to survive and scrounge and scrape, and then move through 350 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: that and become more than that, and then become more 351 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: than we even ever were before that, and to become 352 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: finally like God. And that's the process of the Great Work. 353 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: And that's the point of it. Many see and some 354 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: see not just that, but that that's you know, for 355 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: putting God in this mix here, that that's what God 356 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: wants us to do, that's the purpose what we're supposed 357 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: to do. So would you say that being a successful 358 00:23:54,560 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: alchemist is sort of a physical personification of how being 359 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: successfully performed this great work on yourself. Yes, Um, that 360 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: was the idea of being a ultimately a successful alchemist. 361 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: And I should take a step back and say that 362 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: a lot of what we know, a lot of what 363 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: we think we know about alchemy, and a lot of 364 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: our perspective on alchemy is reconstruction. Right. So we're looking 365 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: backward at a group of people who been, as you noted, 366 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: we're very secretive about this work. There they were in 367 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: fact occulting it in many ways, UM off air. Previously 368 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:41,959 Speaker 1: we discussed this idea of alchemical text being written in code. Yes, yes, okay, 369 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: this is this is a fantastic and bedeviling thing. So listeners, 370 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of us have written back 371 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: and forth with each other via maybe Twitter, email or 372 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: Facebook about UM mysterious texts. We We've talked about both 373 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: legit aimant ly undeciphered text like the Vonage manuscripts. We've 374 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: talked about UM, things that were recreations of that that 375 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: come from completely mundane sources, like the Kodak Seraphenius. However, UM, 376 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: this this is a fascinating thing because there are both 377 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: practical and philosophical reasons for writing and code. One of 378 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: the big questions that I'd like to explore will be 379 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: the relationship of alchemists to the established churches of the time. Uh, 380 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: And did that play any role in this use of 381 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: code um To an extent, some alchemists were in fact 382 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: working to hide their processes um and their actual activities 383 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: from the church at the time, because Uh, this was 384 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: a point at which the understanding of magic for the 385 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: sake of the church was beginning to be seen as 386 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: um kind of taboo. Uh. There was a point in 387 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: church history in which magic that gets done there is 388 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: there's biblical magic, like there is a history of Jewish magic, 389 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: of Christian magic, of Islamic magic. There are traditions of 390 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: magical processes being built out of certain understandings and certain 391 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: decipher ngs of the text. The entire history of jam 392 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: Atria and the Kabbalah is about deciphering coded messages from 393 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: out of the Torah from by using numerical transformations on 394 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: words and texts to then find hidden messages in the text. 395 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: And the same was applied to the New Testament by 396 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: Gnostic thinkers and building these kinds of perspectives out of um. 397 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: What is hidden? What does the hidden meaning within the text? 398 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean the Gnostics came before the first really attested 399 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: cabalists obviously, But like, um, in all of this that 400 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: keep thinking, wasn't Jesus kind of an alchemist? Actually, some 401 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: of the alchemists and magicians, the hermetic magicians working later 402 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: down the line, made that exact argument that what Jesus 403 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: specifically was doing was working to teach people how to 404 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 1: perfect and to refine themselves. And in the process, by 405 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: the way, here so you can change one thing into another, right, people, 406 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: that's five loaves of fish or five blows of bread 407 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: and some fish. Here you go, bamp done. I don't know, guys, 408 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: but not in a mood for water today. I'm just 409 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: not feeling it. It's a nice sunny day out or 410 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: at a wedding. Shazam, here's the best wine you've ever tasted. Um. Yeah, 411 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: that's that's a really good point, I think. And it's 412 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: and I mean, that's it. That is that is a 413 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: line of thought that gets deployed, like I said, by 414 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: various or medicists, that what we see in Jesus as 415 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: that kind of figure is the ideal of the alchemist. 416 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: You know, there's something in all of this that keeps 417 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: kind of bothering me is that the end product of 418 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: a lot of this alchemy is usually some incredibly sought 419 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: after material. So there's certain an element of like titilation 420 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: and like peaking people's sort of baser instincts like greed 421 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: or like you know, wanting to be wealthy, and that's 422 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 1: sort of it's almost like, um, it would cause you 423 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: to be more likely to believe it if you think 424 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: it could benefit you in some way? Are you accusing 425 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: alchemy of being a prosperity theology. I'm not making any action. 426 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: This is what's really good. Yeah, that's really good point. 427 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: Rather than prosperity theology, I might actually suggest that you 428 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: think of it in terms of like marketing. You want 429 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: to sell a line of thinking. You want to sell 430 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: people on this process that's going to ultimately change and 431 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: benefit them if they follow through with it. But people 432 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: don't like to hear that. People people don't especially if 433 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: it's like a long, complex, involved process. Nobody wants to 434 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: hear that. It's like telling people to work out, Yeah, 435 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: go eat go, eat like vegetables and stuff and like 436 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: exercise and like don't smoke and eat red meat. And 437 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, can I just like sit on the couch 438 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: with like an absis er and have some gold. And 439 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: then that's a good point. Yeah, so there's there's a 440 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: there's another thing there that when when you were saying 441 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: that nole, it makes me, it makes me think of 442 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: these pursuits. And I don't know how we got this 443 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: far into the podcast without talking about it. But if 444 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: you uh, ladies and gentlemen think of alchemy, then you 445 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: probably think at least once of the philosopher's stone, right um, 446 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: which is sometimes a misunderstood thing. It's not necessarily this 447 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: one guy's magic rock, right um. The philosopher's stone is 448 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: variously described uh. In many alchemical texts. It's sometimes a 449 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: stone like a literal gem. It's sometimes and a lixer 450 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: that one takes um. It's sometimes a uh particular it's 451 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: like a chalice. In some it's like at one point 452 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: in one text um Mercia Eliotti, the Sociologists of Religion 453 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: um looking and Anthropologist of Religion looks at the like 454 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: the overlap between the philosopher's Stone and the Holy Grail 455 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: as these transformative relics, these ideas of creation and refinement. Um. 456 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: But like all of these things are very very like 457 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: they're these things that you can take and then you 458 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: can hold them, or you can have them, or you 459 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: can move them, and you can work them into yourself. 460 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: But the process is um most researchers into alchemy have 461 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: come to understand. The process is about making yourself into 462 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: a philosopher's stone. Yes, about you becoming this thing that 463 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: can transform, because the the mythos of the philosopher's Stone 464 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: is that you can, with the philosopher's stone, transmute anything 465 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: into anything else without any kind of process, without any 466 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: kind of like hard work other than will, other than will, 467 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: you just will it to be. You want this, you 468 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: want transform, transform that gut into a raging six. You know, 469 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: you want the matrix and neo in the matrix. You 470 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: want to have, you know, the knowledge of everything in 471 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: the Library of Congress. You hold on the Philosopher's Stone, 472 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: you think about it real hard, and boom, there you go, 473 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: Like you want a pile of gold where this table 474 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: used to be. Then there it is, and you can 475 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: make anything out of anything without having to do the 476 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: hard work. It seems like a devil's bargain to me, though, 477 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: But that's the thing, is that you get this thing supposedly, 478 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: But in the Philosopher's Stone, what you're actually getting isn't 479 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: this object, this item that allows you to turn something 480 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: into something else. It's this way of existing that lets 481 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: you recognize the interconnection between all things. And even even 482 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: if this word you exist. The one of the implicit 483 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: arguments is that by nature of the process of creating 484 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: this sort of thing or discovering this sort of thing, 485 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: the person who wills it becomes themselves so changed by 486 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: that experience that they're not the same person who would 487 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: they would. So it is like a quest for like 488 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: the Holy Grail or something. It's not the object itself, 489 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: it's the process of getting to the object. And then 490 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: once you're at the object, you realize, well, I'm not 491 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: gonna do what I initially thought I was gonna do 492 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: with this thing. The magic was inside you all the 493 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: time of the time joehol Bush talks with it. I sorry, 494 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: I just anytime you can make a reference to the 495 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: last persade, I'm fine with it, which is still Oh man, 496 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: I was surprised. That holds up solid movie, It holds 497 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: up and then in some ways, you know, uh, what's 498 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: interesting there? And I love that we're talking about this 499 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: Holy Grail combination. Um oh, I'm getting a sidetracked. That 500 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: might be an episode for a different day. How about 501 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: the next thing that we often hear, which is the 502 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: cure all the panacea. Yes, and that actually comes back 503 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: around to a lot of what we hear in terms 504 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: of Chinese alchemy. Um, we have this goal of in 505 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: Chinese alchemy, your goal is to balance, as I said, 506 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: the energies inside of yourself, to overcome poison, to be 507 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: able to be healthier, to live longer, and in some 508 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: ultimate cases become immortal and possibly learned how to like 509 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: fly and stuff and not like a litch king, actually healthy, immortal, forever, 510 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: still out and they like, um, like there's stories of 511 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: the like the ancient you know, the ancient master who 512 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: has somehow mastered immortality, who has mastered and balanced all 513 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: of their energies and recognizes that all things are an 514 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: eternal dance of energies and they exist within that dance themselves, 515 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: and so if they just exist within it, they never 516 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: have to die. But also in those we see competing ideologies. 517 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: Is one we just say it narratives. Another we see 518 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: these competing ideas because some of the same mythical figures 519 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: or legendary figures who are seen by alchemists as trafficking 520 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: with other worldly powers of the divine are seeing those powers, 521 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: while depicted as angelic and alchemy, are depicted as nefarious 522 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: or infernal in some other I mean, I'll say it, 523 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of organized religions. Yes, it's very true. 524 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: It's very true. I mean. So before we get back 525 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: into the Panacea, let's track it back a second to 526 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: talk about John Deal a little bit more, a little 527 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 1: bit about Enoch and the Anochian language in the Book 528 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: of Enoch and the Metatron. In the same apocryphal text 529 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: of the Book of Enoch, we're talking about a story 530 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: in which Enoch is given and has made privy to 531 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: the fall of the angels that fought on the side 532 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: of Lucifer in the battle against Heaven. He's made privy 533 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: to what happened to them, And what happened to them 534 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: is that they came down to Earth and they had, 535 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: as they say, congress and the knowledge of human women. 536 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: The Nephelim were born out of this union of angelic 537 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: and human. This kind of unholy abomination is usually how 538 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: it's categorized, is like the the outcome of you know, 539 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: angelic powers and human powers. Uh, making the various feature 540 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: figure with two backs. It's it's a thing that comes 541 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,959 Speaker 1: about as a result of the divine and the human 542 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: meeting in a way that they're not supposed to great 543 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: things that don't go great together. Right. But also in 544 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 1: that before we get to the Nephelim or actually while 545 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: that's happening, because the angels in question that fall, they're 546 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: not just like, oh, we're gonna come down, Oh hey, 547 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: hot person, and like then that's over. It's like there's 548 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: they live with humans, they exchange with humans, they form, 549 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 1: they give knowledge and wisdom of things that humans were 550 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: never supposed to have. Um. Azazel Uh. For anybody out 551 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: there familiar with the uh the movie Fallen with Denzel Washington, Uh, 552 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 1: that character doesn't just come out of nothing. The character 553 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: of Asazel is actually first referenced in the Book of Enoch, 554 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: and he is originally an angel of death. His job 555 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: is to you know, to make death and two shepherds 556 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: souls in death, oftentimes connected with the figure of Samuel 557 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: and which is the in many categorizations the pre fall 558 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: name of lucifer Um. But Azazel becomes this minister of 559 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: war to human beings, Asazel teaches humans how to make war, 560 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: how to make weapons, how to make you know, metal weapons, 561 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: and so we see the story about the Bronze Age 562 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: recast as well. Then some angels fell down and talk 563 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: to some humans about some stuff, and now we knew 564 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: how to make swords out of metal. Right right, Let's 565 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: let's let's follow this the curve of this rabbit hole 566 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: just just a little bit further down this um a tangent. 567 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: I have a tangent for you guys, all right, So 568 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: for our listeners, you know, we have to be conscious this. 569 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: This might sound like what we're describing would be a 570 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: bunch of imaginative, somewhat deluded people who are spinning fanciful 571 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: of engaging stories about the world. But this is still 572 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: there's still science at work here, which is the strangest part. 573 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: I read recently, and I don't know if you guys 574 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: heard about this um that ancient Babylonian astronomers were tracking 575 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: Jupiter with calculus, with like actual and in fact calculus. Yeah, 576 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: and there several thousand years before we ever thought that 577 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: that was invented, right right, And because of this what's 578 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: so strange is that in what's so strange is that 579 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: the reason they were tracking, the reason that they had 580 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: this um amazingly complex math, which was well done, and 581 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: it's you know, let's keep in mind, this concerns a 582 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: planet that no one in our species, at least officially 583 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: has been to yet. Uh and so, and they're not 584 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: working with technology remotely close to what is here in 585 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: the modern day. They were tracking this, they were doing 586 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: this amazing job because they wanted to know the religious implications, right, 587 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: and they were ultimately looking for um even though they 588 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: were doing solid work, they were ultimately looking for explanations 589 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: on the acts and the moods of the gods. And 590 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 1: so ultimately, yeah, as a result of that, they ended 591 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: up inventing calculus, you know, about ten thou years before 592 00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: we thought. It's like when you stop and think about 593 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: what is actually present in our capabilities, what we what 594 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: we can learn to do, and what motivates us to 595 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: do it. As you said, right, So, one of the 596 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: things that I tend to tell my students when we 597 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: learn about philosophy of religion and we talk about atheism 598 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: and agnosticism and belief, one of the things I talked 599 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: about is okay, so let's talk about Islam for a 600 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: little bit. Right. In Islam, it's a commandment to know 601 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: the works of God, to understand the world. It's a 602 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: responsibility that you dig down via science and math and 603 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: art and figure out the world however you can, because 604 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: from that perspective, God made this, and God put humans 605 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: here to enjoy it, to experience it, and to take 606 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: care of it. So you better fee year it out 607 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: pretty fast so that you can we get mathematical Like, 608 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,760 Speaker 1: we get mathematical advancements from Islamic cultures around the world 609 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: down through human history. As a result of this, we 610 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: get architectural advancements, we get geometric advances that we never 611 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: would have seen if people hadn't been trying to accurately 612 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: reproduce religious experience because God said so. So it's that's 613 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: such a great way to put it. Because we're finding 614 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: is that Um Nolan, you and I were doing the 615 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: flat Earth episode earlier with Matt. One thing that we 616 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: found was this whole myth about this entire myth about 617 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: people thinking the Earth was flat until what was it 618 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: fous Yeah, and that that entire time, Um, people knew 619 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: for the the whole time people knew the Earth was round. 620 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: The big argument was like how big is it? Not 621 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: what shape is it? But because there were because there 622 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,439 Speaker 1: were book that attempted to make science and faith seem um. 623 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: I think the phrase we use his logger heads, which 624 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: is an awkward word I was trying to bring back, 625 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: but I think I'm gonna have to give up on 626 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: that one. Logger heads. It's it's hard to deploy, but 627 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: it's a good word. I kind of like dropped it 628 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: and then just kept running in the podcast and hoped 629 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: that no one called called me out on it. The 630 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: best one we had was um in that episode was 631 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: where no, I think you invented it horse wash right, 632 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: It's hard to say it could have been used before, 633 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 1: but it just occurred to me. I'm gonna gets poetic, 634 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm so so what what we're learning is that um, 635 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: not only is it not the case that science and 636 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: faith would be UM mortal enemies or irreconcilable, and instead 637 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 1: it is the case that for much of human civilization 638 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: the two have been one and the same exactly. And 639 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: that's precisely like when we think and talk about alchemy, 640 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: that's precisely what we're seeing. We're seeing this unification of 641 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,280 Speaker 1: scientific faith and well scientific faith, that's what we're seeing. 642 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: We're seeing this scientific exploration what would later come to 643 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: be called scientific exploration of faith, of the workings of nature, 644 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: of the operations of God, because that's what her medicists, alchemists, 645 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: magicians at this time are looking for. They're looking for, 646 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: how does God work through nature? How is nature this 647 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: perfect plan that God created that you know, works and 648 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,879 Speaker 1: functions and ticks along perfectly. How does that happen? And 649 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: can we do it? Ah? Yes, the million dollar question, 650 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: the million philosophers still in question, and the question we're 651 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: still trying to answer in many levels today. So let's 652 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: end on this note. What is modern alchemy? What is 653 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: the future of alchemy? The current this position of alchemy 654 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: as it's understood in the world today. Um, it's kind 655 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: of dichotomists. On the one hand, people look at alchemy 656 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: and look at the processes of alchemy and they scoff 657 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: and they say, um, how could anybody have ever been 658 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: so naive as the thing that you could transmute lead 659 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: into gold, When at the same time we have a 660 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: large hadron collider that could do you just that. That's like, 661 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: we have the ability to turn energy into matter. We 662 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: have the ability to do that on a very large scale, 663 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: and we can do it in a very small scale. 664 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: I know a physicist working at Agnes Scott right now 665 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,479 Speaker 1: who could do that in her lab when she goes 666 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: in like later today, like she could. We can make 667 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: protons and neutrons out of photons. All you gotta do 668 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: is slam again, they're hard. We can we can do this. 669 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: We can change the atomic weight of things. We know 670 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: how to manipulate things and turn them into or give 671 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: them the properties of other things. Now we I think 672 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: if we brought John d or Isaac Newton. Oh yes, 673 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: also Isaac Newton was a practicing alchemist for those of 674 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: you still unaware about that. Sorry, you just drop that 675 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: on you. But like an apple, like an apple on 676 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,839 Speaker 1: your head, Isaac Newton alchemists. It is interesting though, because 677 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you think about just the very 678 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: idea that these processes would be possible is pretty innovative 679 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: in and of itself. You know, the fact that we're 680 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: now getting around to catching up with these ideas. You know, 681 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 1: I don't want to speak about whether or not I 682 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: believe these things to be true or not the results 683 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: were reproducible at the time, but the idea itself is fascinating, 684 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: that you can turn one material into another or you know, 685 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: change these fundamental aspects of matter, and the fact that 686 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: we're now getting around to it and hundreds of years 687 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: later is pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, if if we weren't 688 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 1: already doing it in secret, I just have to pose 689 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,399 Speaker 1: that part. Yeah, if it's let's put it this way. 690 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: We mentioned the hidden history of alchemy, We mentioned the 691 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,399 Speaker 1: work being transcribed into coded texts, and if there are 692 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: people out there who have been, you know, in the 693 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: process of reproducing these results, turning themselves into philosophers stones 694 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,760 Speaker 1: being able to understand the energetic processes that alter everything, 695 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: they're probably not just gonna, like, you know, tell everybody 696 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: that's a very good point, absolutely. I mean, beyond the 697 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: fact that actually being able to turn any material into 698 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: gold would at a fundamental level on upset the entire 699 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:56,839 Speaker 1: world market. Um, if these philosophers were correct in their 700 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: belief that it's about the process that at learning and 701 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,840 Speaker 1: becoming more that figuring this stuff out and the change 702 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: that we undergo as a process of it as a 703 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: result of the process. I mean, then they're not gonna 704 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: want to just tell you right how to do that. 705 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: That's a that's not only it's worse than a cheat 706 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: code because it invalidates what you could have done exactly. 707 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: So it cannot be done. It must or it cannot 708 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: be done by reading like the Reader's Digest or the 709 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,319 Speaker 1: wiki of the cliff Notes. You have to go through 710 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 1: the process. And so imagine, as I said, like if 711 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: you bring Isaac Newton or John d today and they 712 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: see what we can do, they see what we've learned, 713 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: they see what we've become as a result of maybe 714 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 1: not following al chemical processes and spiritual engagement exactly, but 715 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: by saying, okay, what works, what can we know, what 716 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: can we understand? What do we know about nature? And 717 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,479 Speaker 1: then what we have a the species? And what those 718 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: of us who follow those operations directly, who undergo those 719 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:10,839 Speaker 1: operations directly in that search look like today, I think 720 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 1: they'd say that alchemy it was still doing pretty well. 721 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: And on that note, we are going to end our 722 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: first episode together. Damian, thank you so much for coming 723 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: on the show. Where can people find more of your work? 724 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: Where can they uh read about you? Maybe talk to 725 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: you on the internet. Uh, talk to me on the 726 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: internet on Twitter. That's at Wolvin that's w O l 727 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 1: v e N. And you can read my work at 728 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: a future worth thinking about dot com and technocult dot net. 729 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,320 Speaker 1: All right, and uh, we are going to be returning 730 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: next week to uh No, Damian, I was really happy 731 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 1: with our ability to not talk about the other stuff 732 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: that were super excited to talk about. Yeah, we showed 733 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 1: some very good restraint there. I was. I was impressed 734 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: with I was impressed with this. Uh. We hope you 735 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. We hope you tune in next week 736 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:12,720 Speaker 1: when we cover technology and the occult, uh, the future 737 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: of science and magic. And in the meantime, if you'd 738 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,479 Speaker 1: like to hear any other episode we also we've ever done. 739 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 1: We have one on gnosticism that you might enjoy. You 740 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: can visit our website. Stuff they don't want you to 741 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,400 Speaker 1: know dot com And if you'd rather just communicate with 742 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: us directly and want to keep the Facebook and the 743 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: Twitters out of the whole affair, you can just drop 744 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at 745 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot Com. From more on this topic, 746 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: another unexplained phenomenon. Visit YouTube dot com slash conspiracy. You 747 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 1: can also get in touch on Twitter at the handle 748 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 1: at conspiracy Style