1 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Securing America with me, Frank Affne. The program 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: is the kind of owner's manual for protecting the country 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: we love against all enemies foreign and domestic, to the 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: glory of God and his Kingdom. We're going to be talking, 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: as we often do on this program about China. We 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: have the privilege of taking stock about some well rather 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: ominous developments. I think it's fair to say, with one 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: of our great experts on the subject, Gordon G. Chang, 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: before we do, I want to give you some thoughts 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: ond unrelated subject. Actually, today, the most expensive judicial election 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: in US history concludes in Wisconsin. The prime reason is 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: the expectation that if the leftist candidate, being supported by 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: immense amounts of money from George Soros and other Democrat donors, 14 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: Susan Crawford, prevails, she will inject herself in decide congressional redistricting. 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: It would give the term activist judge a new meaning. 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: Crawford appealed to donors at a January event billed as 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: a chance to put two or more House seats in 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: play in twenty twenty six, supporting electoral maps designed to 19 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: make those Republican districts into ones favoring Democrats, possibly impacting 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: control of the federal House of Representatives. While various courts 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: across the country have injected themselves into redistricting disputes. It's 22 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: astounding that a judicial candidate is so nakedly selling her 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: seat to interested partisans. That's a precedent that should not 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: be set in Wisconsin today. Well, those are my thoughts 25 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: on that particular topic. I hope you will look for 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: more of them at X at Frank Gafney and also 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: at Securing America dot substack dot com. Please, while you're autit, 28 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: check out the Institute for the American Future that makes 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: this program possible. We would welcome your support there at 30 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: us future dot org. Let me turn to our first guest. 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: His name again is Gordon G. 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 2: Chang. 33 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: You can follow him at that handle at Twitter as 34 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: or X as I do. He is, also, among other things, 35 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: the author of a terrific book entitled Plan Read China's 36 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: Project to Destroy America. He's a senior Fellow Distinguished one 37 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: at that of the Gatestone Institute, and a columnists for Newsweek, 38 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: and a very very active contributor to well, both this 39 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: program and so many others. In what seems to be 40 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: as ceaseless and indeed tireless effort to try to awaken 41 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: our country to the danger that we face from the 42 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party. Gordon, thank you so much for doing 43 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: that here today. Welcome back, sir, Thank you, Frank. I 44 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: wanted to start with you by asking about your thoughts. 45 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: About two related things. 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: One is the reporting that is now beginning to roll out, 47 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: even in the pages of the New York Times, no 48 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: less about a very concerted effort it would appear by 49 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party to continue ratcheting up the pressure 50 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: on Taiwan. So it's a two part question, I guess. 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: One is. 52 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: Are these newspapers and other outlets right to be lifting 53 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: up information about what's going on here? And is it 54 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: indicative of a further movement by the Chinese Communists towards 55 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: acting on their longstanding stated intent to get Taiwan under 56 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: their control one way or the other, by force if necessary. 57 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: It's good that media is focusing on Taiwan right now 58 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: because the danger in East Asia is high. But it's 59 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: a danger that is I think different than most people think. 60 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: I don't think that China is ready to launch hostilities 61 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: with an invasion of the main island of Taiwan. The 62 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 3: Chinese military is not ready. They're not ready from a 63 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: military point of view. But more important, the turmoil at 64 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 3: the top of the military and the top of the 65 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 3: Communist Party means that the regime is not ready to 66 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,559 Speaker 3: start a war that way. You know, we have seen 67 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: the purge of senior officers at the most senior officers 68 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 3: of the Chinese military, including the number three guy, General 69 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: Hulway Dong, who is Siegim Ping's enforcer. Now people say, well, 70 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: Sigean Ping is a paranoid or whatever, and he got 71 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: rid of his own guy, But the objective factors suggest 72 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 3: that Siegian Ping's adversaries at the top of the Chinese 73 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: military got rid of a loyalist. 74 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 4: And if that's indeed. 75 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: The case as it appears, then the Chinese military is 76 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: not ready to go to war. I mean, there's also 77 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 3: reports that the heads of the Eastern and the Western 78 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: theater commands have also been detained. Eastern Theater Command is 79 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 3: the one that would lead the invasion of Taiwan, so 80 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: you know, even in the best of times, sigm Ping 81 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 3: is not going to trust a flag officer with control 82 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 3: of the entire Chinese military, which is what's required if 83 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 3: there's going to be an invasion of Taiwan. But this 84 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: is certainly not the best of times. I don't think 85 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: that Cigan Ping is there saying, look, we're going to 86 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: invade Taiwan. Having said that, the risk of war right 87 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: now is extremely high, but it's high for a different reason, 88 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 3: and that is the Chinese military is engaging in a 89 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 3: lot of provocative activity, not only this activity around Taiwan, 90 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: but also in the Philippine, around Australia and New Zealand, 91 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 3: in Japanese waters, and this indicates that the Chinese are. 92 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: Just daring people to go to war. 93 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 3: I think that they don't want war, but I also 94 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: don't think that they can control escalation if a provocation 95 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: goes wrong. And the reason is that in the Chinese 96 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: political system right now, only the most hostile answers are 97 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: considered to be acceptable. So if there's an incident, it's 98 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 3: going to spiral into war. So I think the war 99 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: chance is really high, but not the way that people think. 100 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: This is such an important point Gordon, and I think 101 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: historically you're right, frequently wars begin well often, I guess 102 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: as a result of miscalculations and things then ratchet out 103 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: of control and you see full on military engagements taking place, 104 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: often extremely bloody ones. 105 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 4: At that. 106 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: I guess the question that I would put to you 107 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: is Admiral Sami Paparo, the commander of US Indo Pacific Command, 108 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: has made a very interesting assessment of this level of 109 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: activity that the Chinese are engaged in. I think he 110 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: was specifically thinking about Taiwan, but it might apply to 111 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: some of the other areas in which you rightly say 112 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: the Chinese are also actively and seemingly quite belligerently engaged. 113 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: And that is that the Chinese are no longer really 114 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: exercising these various capabilities, you know, whether it's you know, 115 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: some kind of blockade or quarantine or actual invasion of Taiwan, 116 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: for example. 117 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: Rather they're rehearsing the practice. 118 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: And indeed, some like I think our friend Rick Fisher, 119 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: has been suggesting that what's being done now seems to 120 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: be more and more sort of simple and specific kinds 121 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: of activities that suggest they're now sort of satisfied that 122 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: they've got the overall forces at a level of readiness 123 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: that will do the job, but they're now adding sort 124 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: of special packages or additional capabilities that might be useful. 125 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: I take your point about the uncertainties about what's happening 126 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: at the command level, but do you disagree that that 127 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: level of proficiency has been achieved. 128 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 3: I don't disagree, and I think that Admiral Paparo and 129 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: Rick Fisher are right. But the question is are they 130 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 3: prepared to invade? And I don't think that they are, 131 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: because to do that, China's got to do something it's 132 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: never done in its history, not just the history of 133 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: the Communist Party, but the history Chinese history, and that 134 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: is a combined air land sea operation. And that means 135 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: Sigemping has got to give one flag officer complete control 136 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: or virtually complete control of the Chinese military, which makes 137 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: that person the most powerful figure in China, and Sijianping 138 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 3: is just not going to do that. 139 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a really obviously, very important point and 140 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: we'll explore it further with Gordon Chi Chang on the 141 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: other side of the short break. 142 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: Stay tuned for more. 143 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: Welcome back, and and welcome once again to the author 144 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: of this really important book plan read China's Project to 145 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: Destroy America. We did a full hour, very special program 146 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: with Gordon recently about it. I commend that to you 147 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: and to did the book, because it's not only choc 148 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: a block with the kind of information you need to know, 149 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: it's also very accessible, very well written, and I think 150 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that all of us should take 151 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: a board, especially at a time such as this, and 152 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: Gordon at times such as this in part because of 153 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: what we've just been discussing, the extent to which the 154 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: Chinese are assuredly laboring away as they have done now 155 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: for years, to have the capability to launch an invasion 156 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: of Taiwan the main island as you call it. They 157 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: have put into place, by most estimates, the kinds of 158 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: cape ability as they would need, including now this so 159 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: called water bridge, a series of barges that would enable 160 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: them to have access to basically any point on the shores. 161 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: I understand it if Taiwan they don't need to get 162 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: their hands on ports. But the question that it comes 163 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: down to, I guess is one you have put very squarely, 164 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: and that is Kenjijingping possibly delegate the kind of authority 165 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: to somebody in the uniform of the People's Liberation Army, 166 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: the navy whatever, to command all of the military of 167 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: China and possibly thereby put at risk the regime itself, 168 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist. 169 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: Party and its leader Jijingping. 170 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: So tease that out with US Gordon because it would 171 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: seem as though that would ultimately be something that would 172 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: as stop up the Chinese from ever using force. 173 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 2: Is that realistic? Do you think. 174 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: If there were a figure as powerful as Manza Dung 175 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: or Dung Chao King, Yes, I think that there could 176 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: very well be an invasion of the main island of 177 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 3: Taiwan as the starting act of a war because they 178 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 3: were confident of their ability to control the Chinese military 179 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 3: most of the time. But with Jungzhmen, Hu Jintao and 180 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 3: Si Jimping, I don't think so, you know, and we've 181 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 3: seen so many calls from those three general secretaries about 182 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 3: loyalty of the party, loyalty of the military, that it's 183 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 3: just hard to believe that they are confident in their military. 184 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 4: Now. 185 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: Si Jumping is going through a very difficult time right now, 186 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 3: apart from you know, external affairs, and you know, one 187 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 3: could argue that that means he's more acceptance of risk, 188 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 3: but I don't think that he trusts his military. And remember, 189 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: the general context is that the Communist Party civilian leaders 190 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 3: have really been at odds with the military throughout most 191 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: of the history of the People's Republic, and that even 192 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: includes Mao himself with the Lynbiau incident. So clearly there 193 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: is this strain which is I think very difficult for 194 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 3: the party right now to get around, especially because of 195 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 3: all the firings in the Chinese military plus all of 196 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: the disunity that we see in the civilian ranks. China 197 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: right now is just in a very disorganized state, which 198 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: means it's not about to start a war with, as 199 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: I said, a main invasion of the main island and Taiwan. 200 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: As I also said, they can easily get themselves into 201 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: a war by backing into it unintentionally, and I think 202 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 3: that risk is extremely high. 203 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: And that that might eventuate into an attack on Taiwan 204 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: as well. 205 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: I guess well, once. 206 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 4: The start, it's frank. 207 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: However, one other factor in all of this is there 208 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: are some reports that g appears to be unwell in public, 209 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: let alone. 210 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: What's going on behind the scenes. 211 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: Do you credit those reports, Gordon, and if so, help 212 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: might that factor into all of this? 213 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 3: Well, there's been the stroke rumors, and I just don't 214 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: know whether they are sure or not, but you look 215 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 3: at him these days, he does not look well. His 216 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 3: appearance has visibly changed, and you know we're hearing him 217 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 3: say things that would be unimaginable six seven months ago, 218 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 3: you know, talking about the end of his tenures. So 219 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: you know, he's got a regime which is more opaque 220 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: than it's then the Chinese regime has been for a 221 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: very long time, so we don't know what's going on, 222 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: but we're seeing nigns of instability that are really quite 223 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: worrying and which to me argue that we're not going 224 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 3: to see the Chinese military, you know, start hostilities with 225 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: an invasion of Taiwan's Maine Island. 226 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: I understand that's your view. 227 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: Let me just say, Gordon, one of the things that 228 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: we have been told, and perhaps it's just been wrong, 229 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: is that Ji at least has fancied himself to be 230 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: the most powerful Chinese ruler since Mao, and that his 231 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: purpose in life is basically to try to surpass Mao, 232 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: who he has idolized, including by doing what he was 233 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: never able to do, which is to take Taiwan again. 234 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: You've ranked him as considerably less powerful than Mao and 235 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: Dungshawping for that matter. Is there something I'm missing here 236 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: or is it just a function of the fact that 237 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: there are these other challenges that he's confronting domestically, including 238 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: demographic challenges. 239 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 3: Not least well, it's clear he's staked his legitimacy on 240 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: the annexation of Taiwan, and everything you said about him 241 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 3: was true. But the point is he's in a very 242 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: delicate situation. So remember when he became General Secretary of 243 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: the Communist Party at the end of twenty twelve. He 244 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 3: inherited a consensual political system. No leader got too much 245 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: credit or too much blame because decisions were shared across 246 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: not only the polar Buro Standing Committee, but even maybe 247 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 3: the greater polit Burero at large. By grabbing power from 248 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 3: everybody else, he ended up with total accountability. He's now 249 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: being blamed for all of China's ills, which is crumbling economy, 250 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: falling property prices, continuing debt defaults, accelerating capital flight, falling currency, 251 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 3: deteriorating environment, failing local governments. 252 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 4: He's being blamed for this. Now. 253 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: This means he can maybe lash out, and I can 254 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 3: make a case for that, But the point is, I 255 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: think his control over the Chinese political system is vastly weakened. 256 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: This question of lashing out, I guess is one of 257 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: the places where you know, we come back together on this. 258 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: It does seem to me that totalitarians, when confronted with 259 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: these sorts of challenges, do often revert to, you know, 260 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: conjuring up an external threat or challenge that prompts everybody 261 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: to have to rally around the flag and the government 262 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: and bake sacrifices. And if you combine that Gordon with 263 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: your I think entirely correct contention that something might go 264 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: badly wrong as a result of provocative behavior. Even if 265 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: a decision hasn't been made at the highest levels to 266 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: start a war, we may well find ourselves in one. 267 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: And it might be a flashpoint in the Philippine Sea, 268 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: it might be a flashpoint up in the japan Japanese islands, 269 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: who knows, but it could well go considerably sideways, even 270 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: if Jijiingping is sufficiently unsure of his control to not 271 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: want to do. 272 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: That agreed to one hundred percent, you know, and people 273 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: have got to remember that a war against Taiwan would 274 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 3: be extremely unpopular right now inside mainland China, you know, 275 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: the people in Taiwan, they don't consider themselves to be Chinese, 276 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 3: but the people in mainland China do because of decades 277 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 3: of indoctrination. And Chinese people will say, can you hear 278 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 3: this so often that Chinese do not kill Chinese. You know, 279 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 3: at a moment where the Chinese people do not want 280 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 3: war with anybody, a war with Taiwan would challenge Communist 281 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 3: party control. This is just this is just the fundamentals 282 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 3: of what's going on in China. 283 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have to take another break, Gordon. 284 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: When we come back, I want to talk about a 285 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: couple of other things besides what's been focused on here. 286 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: But I would say that Chinese have killed Chinese in 287 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: vast numbers. Chinese communists have killed Chinese, and you're right, 288 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that they're not popular. I 289 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: believe we'll be right back with more with Gordon Chang, 290 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: the author of Plan Red. 291 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: Check it out. 292 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: We're back and we are continuing this really important and 293 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: very timely conversation with Gordon g. 294 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: Chang. 295 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: We are talking about, well, among other things, the prospect 296 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: of war in the Western Pacific, involving almost certainly some 297 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: of the folks out there of course, but also quite 298 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: possibly us because after all, as Gordon is documented in 299 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: his perfect book Plan Read, the ultimate objective of the 300 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party is to destroy us, not just our 301 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: friends and allies in the region. Gordon us is very 302 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: much on I think the. 303 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: Mind of the region. 304 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: Where are we what are we up to give us 305 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: your take on how Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth's travels 306 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: in the region extensive travels in the region, by the way, 307 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: were regarded by those he visited with in the region 308 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: more generally. 309 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 4: His trip is a great success. 310 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 3: Remember he started in well, he started in Hawaii, but 311 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: then his first stop in the region was Guam, which 312 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: is really important. That's an American dependent territory, it's part 313 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 3: of the United States. It's where we have Anderson Air 314 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 3: Force Base, a significant facility. And then he went to 315 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: the Philippines in Japan and he reassured allies. He had 316 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 3: very strong words, and he had very strong words for Taiwan, 317 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 3: saying that it was the United States goal to deter 318 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 3: China from any activity across the Taiwan Strait. 319 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 4: That was a really important thing. 320 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 3: It's more than what people in Taiwan expected from the 321 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: Trump administration, people were very concerned about abandonment, but you know, 322 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: in the general things. 323 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 4: Remember, even in the best. 324 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 3: Of times, our allies are worried about abandonment by US, 325 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 3: but now more so because of what's happening in Europe. 326 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: But Hegsath's trip in East Asia was I think a 327 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: one win right after the other. So this was very 328 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 3: good for us and good for the region and good 329 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: for peace and stability. 330 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 2: You mentioned that he visited Japan. 331 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: Of course, one of the places that he stopped was 332 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: in Iwajima, marking the approximate eightieth anniversary of the battle 333 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: that took place there at immense cost both to the 334 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: United States and to the Japanese forces defending the island. 335 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: We have a very important insight, I think, to be 336 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: taken away from all of that, and that is what 337 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: is going on with the possibility that we might have 338 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: to fight our way back onto those islands again, if 339 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: not necessarcessarily, Jima, certainly others in what our friend Clara 340 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: Pascal calls the Pacific American heartland of the Central Pacific. 341 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Cleo's right about that. You know, at this particular time, 342 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 3: I don't think we'd have to fight our way across 343 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 3: the Pacific, but the Chinese are making big inroads in 344 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 3: many of these island groups. So that's one of the 345 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 3: reasons why I thought stopping off in Guam was a 346 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: really good thing, because it showed America's commitment to those 347 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 3: island chains. And we need to do a lot more 348 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 3: in places. I mean, the Chinese are making inroads in 349 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: places like Kiribas, which in Pacific island terms is like 350 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: Hawaii's next door neighbor. So yes, we've got to do 351 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 3: a lot more, and we've got to stop this erosion, 352 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 3: and I'm sure we will. The one thing about the 353 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 3: Ewo Jimas stop which caught everybody's attention is that heg 354 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 3: Seth talked about the shared American Japanese warrior ethos, and 355 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 3: I thought that was really good. Of course, it's controversial, 356 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: but it was a signal to the Chinese that the 357 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 3: United States and Japan will fight. And by the way, 358 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 3: while he was there, they announced an initiative started in 359 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: the Biden administration to President Biden's grade credit and completed 360 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 3: in the Trump administration to Trump's grade credit, of changing 361 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 3: our command structure in Japan so that it matches Japan's 362 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: command structure and increases readiness. So this was a really 363 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: good combined Biden Trump move. 364 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that warrior ethos thing obviously struck some people as 365 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: calling to mind a rather unsavory history. I wanted to 366 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: ask you about that would be the Japanese Imperial period, obviously, 367 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: when those islands were indeed taken and then had to 368 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: be liberated. About Guam Gordon, as I'm sure you know, 369 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that Claire Pascal is warning about 370 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: is that there are Chinese who are winding up on 371 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: that island in sizeable numbers, coming in from some of 372 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: the neighboring islands illegally and seemingly being very much engaged 373 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: in probing. Are you know, strategic assets out there, military 374 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: installations and the like. How concerns should we be about 375 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: what's taking place in that being. 376 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 3: Well, the commander of Anderson actually tweeted about the increased 377 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 3: tempo of Chinese attempted incursions into the base. 378 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 4: That's planning for attack. They're looking at. 379 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 3: Our vulnerabilities and they're making plans to attack, and we 380 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 3: need to be much more strict with people who attempt that. 381 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 3: We should be imprisoning them, detaining them. We shouldn't be 382 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: letting them go as we do. 383 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 2: Well, that's for sure, Gordon. Let me turn to another 384 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 2: part of the Pacific. 385 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: I know that this is a somewhat fluid situation as 386 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: we're talking. Specifically, what is the likelihood that on Friday, 387 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: the Constitutional Court I believe it's called South Korea will 388 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: be handing down a very important ruling about the impeachment 389 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: of President Yun. 390 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 2: I don't know if you want to make book on 391 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: what they're likely to say. 392 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: Or not, but I did have a question for you 393 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: about whether, either way, whichever decision is made to indeed 394 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: convict him and remove him from office or to exonerate him, 395 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: that there may be a civil war brewing on a 396 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: very important piece of real estate important to our national 397 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: security as well as of course the freedom of the 398 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: people of South Korea. 399 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 3: That's a real possibility because prior to the Constitutional Court's ruling, 400 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 3: I mean, every weekend, we've been seeing these large rallies 401 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: supporting the removal at preson at Union and opposing the 402 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: removal of him. Now, a good thing is that those 403 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: rallies opposing his removal are larger than the leftist rallies. 404 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: But yeah, there could very well be a civil war. 405 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: We know that China and North Korea has infiltrated the 406 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 3: pro removal rallies, and this has been going on for 407 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: quite some time. So yes, this is a volatile situation. 408 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: We will be watching it closely, as will you, Gordon, 409 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: and we look forward to your analysis of it as 410 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: ruling comes down and what flows from it. 411 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: One final question, Gordon. 412 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: One of our valued colleagues, member of our committee on 413 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: the President Danger China, Greg Autry is the co author, 414 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: with another great friend, doctor Peter Navarro, of a book 415 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 1: entitled Red Moon Rising, How America Will Beat China on 416 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: the Final Frontier. It's a book that is framed by 417 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: what the Chinese are doing in space, including what appears 418 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: to be an intention to not only land men on 419 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: the Moon, specifically in the south polar area where the water, 420 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: we are told may be most accessible there, which is 421 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: a huge importance to space exploration, colonizing military establishments, and 422 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: projecting into deeper space Mars and beyond. What are your thoughts, Gordon, 423 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: about a space race to the Moon and the implications 424 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: if the Chinese get there first, as well as more generally, 425 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: what China is up to in the high frontier. 426 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: Well, China is actively working to take down our satellites, 427 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: as the Vice Chief of the Space Force, goot Line, 428 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 3: General goot Lines said a couple of weeks ago, they're 429 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 3: practicing dog fighting and lower Earth orbit. And we know 430 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: from Rick Fisher's great reporting about their space station has 431 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 3: a module which can launch satellites, and we've seen the 432 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 3: Chinese grapple satellites into useless orbits. So yeah, there's going 433 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 3: to be war starts in the heavens. The other thing 434 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 3: about the Moon, Yeah, there's a race there. In twenty seventeen, 435 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 3: the head of China's space program talked about the Moon 436 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: and Mars is sovereign Chinese territory, part of the People's Republic, 437 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: so they intend to exclude us if they get the 438 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: capability to do that, Which means that Elon Musk is 439 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 3: critically important to the future of the United States because 440 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: if we get to the Moon, it's not because of NASA, 441 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 3: it's because of Elon Musk. 442 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 2: Could you. 443 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: Contemplate that the Moon may become another front in this 444 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: war with China? 445 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: Should it? Actually? 446 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: Absolutely, the whole world's going to be a front, including 447 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 3: by the way, American soil. We're going to be fighting 448 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: on our soil foreign enemy in pitched battles for the 449 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 3: first time since the War of eighteen twelve. We can 450 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 3: go through that, but you know, there's no place on 451 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 3: Earth that's going to be safe when war starts. 452 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: And less so because some of the things that might 453 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: be rained down on us from the high front case, 454 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: whether it's the moon or you know, real points or otherwise. 455 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: Gordon just very quickly on that last point. It's one 456 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: that we talk about frequently and I am obsessed with. 457 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: I have to say that. 458 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: I've heard numbers now as high as one hundred and 459 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: twenty thousand People's Liberation Army personnel inside the United States. 460 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: I have no idea if that's right or off by 461 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: a factor of ten, but whatever it is, that possibility 462 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: of conflict here is very real and extremely concerning. We 463 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: will be talking with you more about that in our 464 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: next visit, I'm sure, and in the meantime, thank you 465 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: for your extra time today. It's bracing and vitally important 466 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: that we have as much clarity as we can on 467 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: every single aspect of this conflict with the Chinese Communist Party. 468 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: Nobody does it better than you. My friend come back 469 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: to us soon. 470 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: Congratulations again on Plan read. The rest of you will 471 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: stay tuned for further conversation with our friend Peter mcelvena 472 00:31:45,760 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: about Islam rising in Europe and beyond back. Welcome back, 473 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: and what a delight to be able to say welcome 474 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: to our next guest. His name is Peter mcavena. No 475 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: stranger to this program, or to the war room audience 476 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: or so many others. He has become a very prominent spokesman, 477 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: I'm delighted to say for well the freedom fighters. 478 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: Notably in his. 479 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: Adopted country. I guess you might call it Great Britain. 480 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: He's from Northern Ireland, so it's part of that United Kingdom, 481 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: of course, but some days it doesn't seem recognizable as 482 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: the Great Britain of old, that's for sure. So Peter 483 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: is the partner and very very impressive staff member for 484 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: Malcolm Pearson, one of my favorite parliamentarians the whole world, 485 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: a member of the House of Lords. Now Peter is 486 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: also joined at the hip with him in a podcast 487 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: that they do call Hearts of Oak and a non 488 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,959 Speaker 1: profit organization of that same name, and they are doing 489 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: immensely important work and we're going to talk about some 490 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: of it in the course of this visit. 491 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: Peter, welcome back. It's so good to have you with 492 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: us as always. 493 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 5: Thanks Frank, always good to join you. 494 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: Thank you. 495 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: Let me start by asking you to look across the 496 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: channel for a moment that we rely on you to 497 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: cover not just what's going on in the UK, but 498 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: also Europe at large, and appreciate your efforts. 499 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 4: In that regard. 500 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: There was a rather stunning pronouncement out of a court 501 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: in France earlier today, and I know that you are 502 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: an admirer of Marie La Penn, the oppos leader. Tell 503 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: us what went down and its implications. 504 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 5: Peter, Well, Marine Leapenn, who leads the National Rally Party 505 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 5: and came second, got thirty five percent in the last 506 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 5: French election, which which removed a lot of the power 507 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 5: of Nicholas Sercouzi. Oh sorry, now, Emmanuel Macaron nick I 508 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 5: got my French leaders mixed up before Macron, who has 509 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 5: severely damaged politically by that huge surge by Marine Leapenn, 510 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 5: and of course huge concern because during that election, actually, 511 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 5: if we just step back, there were every election that 512 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 5: there were three candidates, so Marine Leapenn and two other parties. 513 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 5: In the vast majority of those try competitions, the Establishment 514 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 5: dropped out one of the other parties, so was always 515 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 5: a one against one as opposed to three against each other. 516 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 5: And that meant that damage obviously in Marin La Penn, 517 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 5: but it showed what the French establishment would do to 518 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 5: make sure Marina Penn did not win. So she actually was. 519 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 5: She is the largest party in the French Parliament. And 520 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 5: suddenly an announcement came that investigation was going to be 521 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 5: launched into the embezzlement of funds, and the courts today 522 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 5: have ruled maybe just an hour and a half two 523 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 5: hours ago, with it that she is guilty and is 524 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 5: imprisoned for four years and cannot stand for a political 525 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 5: office for five years. Now the information is coming out, 526 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 5: it looks like once she's banned from public office, high 527 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 5: cozy of the Establishment to ban the most popular political 528 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 5: opponent to the current leader, making sure she couldn't run 529 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 5: for plegal office in the next election. That's one. And 530 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 5: then it was a four year prison sentence that I 531 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 5: think has been suspended for two of those years have 532 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 5: been suspended, and two of those years she will have 533 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 5: to wear an ankle tig that's my understanding, so she 534 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 5: can be tracked everywhere she goes. And again, this is 535 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 5: exactly what the state have wanted to do to all 536 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 5: of us, track what we do, and want to track 537 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 5: her everywhere she goes. And she is the biggest threat 538 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 5: to the French establishment and probably the biggest threat to 539 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 5: the European Union. Marie La Penn has been in this 540 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 5: fight for many, many years. Of course, her father was 541 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 5: in this fight before her, and apart from Guert Fielders, 542 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 5: I think who's maybe in this fight longer. Marie La 543 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 5: Penn is next in that And it does seem first 544 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 5: of all, we had Austria. The Freedom part of the 545 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 5: FPU won the Austrian election. They were not allowed to 546 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 5: form a government, the first time the Second World War 547 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 5: in Austria that the winner was not allowed to form 548 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 5: a government. Everyone else came together. You've seen everyone coming 549 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,919 Speaker 5: together to make sure the AfD in Germany, who got 550 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 5: twenty percent up from ten percent, to make sure they 551 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 5: would not be part of the government. You saw Romania 552 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 5: where the front leader was removed and the election was 553 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 5: canceled because he was going to win and seemed to 554 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 5: be a threat, and now you have France. So it 555 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 5: is a pattern that we are seeing across Europe where 556 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 5: the populous front runner is barred from actually achieving that position. 557 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 5: So the manunderstanding is and just before we did this, Frank, 558 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 5: her lawyers have said, they will of course appeal that. 559 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 5: So the end has not happened. Marine Leapenn is a 560 00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 5: fighter of the end degree and she will challenge this ruling. 561 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the pattern that you've described, Peter is very troubling, 562 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: of course, and these are always accompanied with, you know, 563 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: pronouncements about commitments to democracy, aren't they. 564 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 2: And I just wanted you have known Marine le pen 565 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: for some time. 566 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 5: What do you. 567 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: Want to say concerning her reputation for being, Oh, I 568 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: don't know, an Islamophobe or a radical, you know, anti Semite, 569 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: even I think they've been charging her with any truth 570 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,280 Speaker 1: to any of that, do you think? 571 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 5: Well, let me I wish I knew her very well. 572 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 5: I have met her on occasions. I have had the 573 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 5: privilege of meeting her whenever she was in London just 574 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 5: over a decade ago, her and Garret Fielders, and it 575 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 5: was a day that's etched in my memory now. Marie 576 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 5: Lepenn is not on islamophobe. She has concerns of the 577 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 5: damage of bringing Islam into France. And we've seen those 578 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 5: running rats, those outside Paris, of groupings that have daily 579 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 5: battles with the police because they refuse to integrate it. 580 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 5: And this is the problem we have with Islam across 581 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,479 Speaker 5: the whole of Europe. We have it in the UK, 582 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 5: we have it in many European countries. It's a failure 583 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 5: to integrate. And really Penn is aware of that and 584 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 5: of pointing out the failure of those who come into 585 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 5: your country to actually accept the laws in your land. 586 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 5: If that is lamophobe, if that's the new definition, then 587 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 5: I guess she fits that. 588 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 2: But she don't point is anyone Peter, this is such 589 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 2: an important point. 590 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: We'll pick up on the other side of a short 591 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: break to drill down on it because it's a it's 592 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: a smear and it's been used against I think me. 593 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: And then we'll be talking with Peter macavint more on 594 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: the other side of the state too. We're back and 595 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: we're visiting with Peter mckleven, a freedom fighter from the 596 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: United Kingdom. We're delighted always to catch up with him, 597 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: but especially at a time such as this, because I've 598 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: just learned that her majesty, excuse me, his Majesty's government 599 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: now is standing up a working group of some kind 600 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: to fashion an actual definition of what constitutes Islamophobia, and 601 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: obviously with a view to criminalizing it in some form 602 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: of fashion, all of which, it must be said, is 603 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: a driving agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood aimed at suppressing 604 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: people who like Marine la Pen like Peter mcklevin, like 605 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: Monk Pearson, like myself, and others are simply pointing out 606 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: the nature of Sharia supremacism. Goes by different names, but 607 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: I think that aptly describes the idea that animates the Brotherhood, 608 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: animates the Iranian regime, animates with the authorities of Islam, 609 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: for that matter, namely, to impose this totalitarian Islamic doctrine 610 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: of Sharia on everyone, and to do it violently if possible, 611 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: or stealthily where that might be expedient. 612 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 2: So, Peter, tell us a little bit about this working group. 613 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: What do we need to know about its mandate and 614 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: likely upshot of it. 615 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 5: Well, this is a warning, Frank, to all your US 616 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 5: viewers that this is what Islam does. It dominatesan Just 617 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 5: over a month ago, the government annoynced a working group 618 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,919 Speaker 5: on ant the Muslim hatred islamophobia definition. That's the term, 619 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 5: and this is an official government group. It's not at 620 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 5: arms length. It's an official government group that's been pulled 621 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 5: together to look at this, a working definition of anti 622 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 5: Muslim hatred or islamophobia, and those are not the same thing. 623 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 5: You can critique in ideology and yet care and be 624 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 5: concerned about the people who follow that ideology. No one 625 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 5: complained about critiquing communism and no one said, well, some people. 626 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 2: Did, but they didn't try to ban it. 627 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 5: But if critiquing communism does not hit everyone living in 628 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 5: a communist country, because many people have no ability to 629 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 5: choose or decide, and when elections are not called, then 630 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 5: there's no freedom, and the same in Islam. You can 631 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 5: critique Islam and yet be concerned of people who live 632 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 5: in Islamic nations because they have got a lack of 633 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 5: freedom and ability to make their own decisions. But this 634 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,439 Speaker 5: has been called just over a month ago to look 635 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,839 Speaker 5: at this, and this has been an ongoing issue in 636 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 5: the UK. What exactly is is Lamophobia. There's no such 637 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 5: thing as Christian ephobia. Of course, you can mock Christianity 638 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 5: as much as you like, but you don't touch Islam. 639 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 5: And we've seen this country by country, these cries of 640 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 5: Islamophobia are damaging and destructive to any individual. We mentioned 641 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 5: before that those attacks on one of ten, but this 642 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 5: example in the UK, if this is successful, and our 643 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 5: far left government wanted to be successful, then my fear 644 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 5: is this is a model that could be ruled out 645 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 5: to other countries with legal penalties, with a demand for 646 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 5: local authorities and local groups to use this definition. And 647 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 5: if you do not tow the party land, if you 648 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 5: don't accept this new definition by the government, then you 649 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 5: will be guilty of an offense. And then of course 650 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 5: there will have to be prosecutions. There will have to 651 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 5: be punishment, because you cannot have a law without punishment. 652 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 5: That is my huge concern and am I really word 653 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 5: this will be a model for other countries to take 654 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 5: on board. 655 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 2: I fear you're right. 656 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,919 Speaker 1: We've seen some evidence of that, as you know better 657 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 1: than just about anybody in what has been done to 658 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: Tommy Robinson in the United Kingdom for speaking out against well, 659 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: among other things, these rape gangs that you know, Sharia's 660 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: supremacists have perpetrated for decades in Britain against white girls 661 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: that they've essentially enslaved and ravaged, and Peter, I guess 662 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: the point is that we'll come back to Tommy here 663 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:54,399 Speaker 1: in a moment. But a phobia, by definition, is an 664 00:44:54,480 --> 00:45:01,879 Speaker 1: unreasoned fear of something. Those rape gangs, or the innumerable 665 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: examples of jihad being waged in Britain, on the continent 666 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: of Europe, in America and elsewhere, is not something that 667 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: induces unreasoned fear. It is designed to create terror and submission. 668 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 2: Is it not? 669 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 5: Yes? And Lord Pearson points us out regularly. He says 670 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 5: Lamophobia is a made up term. It is not phobic 671 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 5: to fear the world's most violent ideology. And you can 672 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 5: imagine the response he gets in the House of Lords 673 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 5: when he puts that in. But no, it's not. You 674 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 5: look at the history of Islam. You look at the 675 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 5: violence and the many wars that were led by Muhammad himself, 676 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 5: and that is the history. Islam was spread by the sword. 677 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 5: So how is it concerning for any culture to actually 678 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 5: fear that ideology? Because it is enforcing, it is demanding, 679 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 5: it controls all aspects of society in not only the religious, 680 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 5: but the legal, the financial, the food system, the education system. 681 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 5: It's across the board. And that's what we saw with 682 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 5: Islam at the beginning. And now Islam tries to position 683 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 5: itself in Europe, refuses to integrate and demands its ideals 684 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 5: are accepted as fact in all those areas, and that. 685 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 2: Will submit to the point of people will. 686 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 5: Submit and they're forced to submit. They must submit to that. 687 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: You know, you've used the term several times integrate. I 688 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: think a better word for it is assimilate. You know, 689 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: they're refusing to become part of the culture of the 690 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: host nation. They are seeking to transform it, fundamentally transform it. 691 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: As Barack Obama says Peter, We've got about forty five seconds, 692 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: very quickly, an update on Tommy Robinson's status. 693 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 2: You've visited him in jail. What's going on? 694 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 5: So Tommy is hell for eighteen months, of which you 695 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 5: may serve nine months in sultry confinement for showing it film. 696 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 5: Of course, just like Marie La Penn, there's something else 697 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 5: behind it, and that is his focus on the grooming 698 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 5: gangs and on Islam as n ideology. Yesterday he was 699 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 5: yes yesterday he was strip searched in his cell, despite 700 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 5: the fact that anyone who goes to visit him must 701 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 5: go through numerous metal detectors, give their fingerprints four times, 702 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 5: give all their information. There's no way you can get 703 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 5: anything into him. And yet he was strip searched. His 704 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 5: wholesale was taken apart. And it is a shoe of 705 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 5: strength by the authorities that we are in charge and 706 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 5: you're not. You must submit to that, so gradding. 707 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: Further evidence his status is a political prisoner in Britain. 708 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 2: Thank you for your solidarity with him. 709 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: Then you're couraging all of these matters, Peter, and that 710 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 1: of your boss, Lord Malcolm Pearson. Give him our best. 711 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 1: Come back to us soon. I hope the rest of 712 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: you will do the same next time. Until then, go 713 00:47:53,520 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: forth and multiply