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Speaker 1: A warning for listeners. This episode contains graphic description of

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Speaker 1: alleged sexual assault. Please listen with caution and care. In

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Speaker 1: February of nineteen ninety nine, eighty six year old Rosemary

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Speaker 1: Williams arrived at Jamaica Hospital in Queen's She claimed that

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Speaker 1: she'd been raped at knife point. At the time, Rosemary's grandson,

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Speaker 1: Gary was on parole from a drug possession charge and

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Speaker 1: had been staying with her. Rosemary told police that she

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Speaker 1: and Gary had argued about a friend he'd had over.

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Speaker 1: Then later that night, she said he came into her bedroom,

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Speaker 1: threatened her, and then assaulted her.

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Speaker 2: Right from the beginning, there were conflicting versions of what occurred,

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Speaker 2: but the accusation that led to his arrest and indictment

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Speaker 2: was that he raped and sodomized his grandmother.

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Speaker 3: My MOA's told me over the phone. I said you,

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Speaker 3: She said yes, she said they look for you.

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Speaker 1: But when you hear this, this is like crazy, this lie,

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Speaker 1: this is it's wild.

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Speaker 3: What were youation? Embarrassing day that I faced in my life.

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Speaker 3: I have to face it every day.

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Speaker 4: In here with these guys.

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Speaker 3: Gary Williams. I've been concentrated for twenty four years.

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Speaker 1: From lava for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie

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Speaker 1: Freeling today Gary Williams. Gary Williams has been incarcerated in

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Speaker 1: New York since two thousand and one. He's serving twenty

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Speaker 1: five to life for a crime that, as you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: never happened. Since I'm in New York, I took a

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Speaker 1: short two hour trip to visit Gary at Fishkill Correctional

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Speaker 1: Facility in Beacon. It's a medium security prison with razor

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Speaker 1: wire fences surrounding the daunting brick building. Inside was organized

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Speaker 1: and chaotic. Our interview was even cut short by a

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Speaker 1: lockdown for an unknown reason. When that happened, Gary was

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Speaker 1: taken back to his cell immediately. However, we were able

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Speaker 1: to speak for an hour.

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Speaker 3: I was born in Snowhill, Maryland, and I was raised

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Speaker 3: in Stopped, Jamaica, Queens. We moved to Far Rockaway, so

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Speaker 3: I I grew up in Jamaica and Far Rockaway. I

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Speaker 3: got an older brother named Aaron, another brother named Manu, Aaron, Diane,

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Speaker 3: man You Michelle inmate.

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Speaker 1: Gary's parents were Manuel Williams and Margaret Bratton. When Gary

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Speaker 1: was around two, the family moved in with Gary's paternal grandparents.

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Speaker 1: Franklin and Rosemary Williams on one hundred and forty second

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Speaker 1: Street in Jamaica, Queens. The kids knew them as Daddy

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Speaker 1: Frank and Mama Rose.

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Speaker 3: He cooks breakfast every morning, so I used to get

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Speaker 3: up in the morning and go sit down in the

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Speaker 3: chair and watch him cook as great sausage. And he

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Speaker 3: used to give me a half a cup of coffee.

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Speaker 3: I remember that. I look forward to that when I

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Speaker 3: go to sleep at night, I'm like this, Daddy Frank

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Speaker 3: gonna cook me breakfast in the morning. Yup, I look

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Speaker 3: forward to at He took us to Florida. We were

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Speaker 3: the youngest grandkids, so she used to take the two

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Speaker 3: youngest boys everywhere. He went baseball games everywhere. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: had some good times in that house.

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Speaker 5: Oh he was to me, he was saught on earth.

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Speaker 5: He was a very nice person.

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Speaker 1: This is Gary's older brother, Aaron Williams.

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Speaker 6: He gave all his grandchildren when he worked and everything.

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Speaker 6: He gave all of us allowance on Fridays, and he

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Speaker 6: took us to baseball games.

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Speaker 5: He even came to our games and everything a lot.

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Speaker 7: And then what about Mama Rose, what was she like?

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Speaker 6: She was a piece of work? She never went anywhere

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Speaker 6: with else. She would drinking and that was boy, that

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Speaker 6: was a done deal. She would play the numbers. She

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Speaker 6: would drink, and she would would have barbecues and she

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Speaker 6: would write from friends over and we had a nice time.

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Speaker 6: But like I said, when she started drinking everything with

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Speaker 6: a little head wire, she was very nasty when she drank.

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Speaker 1: As Aaron remembers it, Mama Rose didn't seem to care

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Speaker 1: for Gary much.

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Speaker 5: When we first moved up here.

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Speaker 6: She was nice to all of us, but it seemed

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Speaker 6: like for some reason along the way, she just started

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Speaker 6: resenting Gary. Seem like whatever he did, she didn't like it.

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Speaker 6: She resented him a lot.

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Speaker 5: I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: Mama Rose's younger son, Richard, Gary's uncle Rick, was a

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Speaker 1: source of tension for Gary as well.

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Speaker 3: He didn't like me. She sund was a little boy.

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Speaker 3: I used to hear him talk about my dad behind

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Speaker 3: his back, you know what I'm saying. So I never

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Speaker 3: mean told my dad because my uncle, like, he's the

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Speaker 3: type of person that liked to fight. So I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to see two brothers fight over something. I try

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Speaker 3: to avoid things like that. Wh She was a drug

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Speaker 3: user back in the sixties and seventies. Every time my

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Speaker 3: dad lit him money. He don't never pay my dad back. Oh,

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Speaker 3: one time you try to get money from me, I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't give it to him. I says, how you will

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Speaker 3: expect me to lend you money. You can't pay my

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Speaker 3: dad money? And how many years you own my father?

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Speaker 3: Over five years? I mean you ain't paying them.

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Speaker 1: When Gary was around twelve, the family left his grandparents'

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Speaker 1: house and moved to a place in Springfield Gardens. Soon

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Speaker 1: after that, Gary's parents separated and his mother moved out.

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Speaker 3: She just packed the stuff and left. Nobody know where

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Speaker 3: she went. Is she what I'm saying? She left? The

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Speaker 3: kids met my father right, so nobody know where she

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Speaker 3: was at. So I said, well, I know where she

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Speaker 3: work at.

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Speaker 1: So Gary says one day he got on his bike

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Speaker 1: and rode to her workplace, the post office at Kennedy Airport,

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Speaker 1: about two miles away. When his mother got off work,

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Speaker 1: he says he saw her get into a car with

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Speaker 1: his older brother, Aaron, So.

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Speaker 3: They drove right So when they did, I followed them

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Speaker 3: all the way to far rockaway. When she was getting

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Speaker 3: out of the car, I was like, mob, I found you.

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Speaker 1: Gary's mom was living in a one bedroom apartment at

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Speaker 1: the time. His father was moving down to Delaware with

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Speaker 1: his sisters, so Gary's mother got a bigger place and

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Speaker 1: he and his two brothers moved in with her in

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Speaker 1: far Rockaway, a.

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Speaker 3: Block and a half away from the ballwalk. How did

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Speaker 3: you get used to that? Me and my brother used

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Speaker 3: to erase each other playing in the sand. They had

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Speaker 3: basketball court there, hand ballcourt in a baseball court.

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Speaker 1: Were you particularly good at any of them?

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Speaker 3: I basically wanted to do it because my older brothers

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Speaker 3: did it. But I was like.

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Speaker 1: Gary's teens were spent living near the beach, playing sports

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Speaker 1: and hanging out with his brothers. But when he reached

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Speaker 1: his twenties, he started getting into trouble.

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Speaker 3: That ain't happened. No, I was. I was a thief.

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Speaker 3: I ain't gonna lie, you know I did that. I

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Speaker 3: have two robs in the drug case.

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Speaker 1: Were you working at all?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I used to drive trucks LBX Trucking company. I

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Speaker 3: should drive for low I should work in TSS department store.

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Speaker 7: So you were working?

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Speaker 1: So how come you felt like you needed to rob

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Speaker 1: or do things like that?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: No, I guess it wasn't pain enough.

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Speaker 1: Between nineteen eighty four and nineteen ninety two, Gary served

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Speaker 1: time on and off for three felony convictions, one for

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Speaker 1: selling drugs and one each for robbery and attempted robbery.

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Speaker 1: In February of nineteen ninety nine, when he was thirty

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Speaker 1: six years old, he was out on parole for a

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Speaker 1: drug charge. With no place else to go, he was

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Speaker 1: once again staying under Mama Rose's roof in Queen's. She

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Speaker 1: was now in her eighties and a widow. Daddy Frank

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Speaker 1: had died in nineteen eighty six. Gary's father, Manuel was

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Speaker 1: living in Maryland and coming around to help Mama Rose

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Speaker 1: fix up the house so she could sell it.

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Speaker 7: So tell me a little bit about Mama Rose.

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Speaker 3: Morose was kind of difficult to get along with. She's

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Speaker 3: got she was like kind of difficult. But I did

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Speaker 3: my best. I do things around the house for she

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Speaker 3: asked me to. I do it.

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Speaker 7: So why was she difficult to get along with?

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Speaker 3: Because the type of person she is, I mean, gotta

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Speaker 3: go whole way. It's it's whole way, it's the highway.

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Speaker 3: You know, she's always in people's business. You know, I

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Speaker 3: hear coming, I might go that way, you know, what

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Speaker 3: I'm saying, I try to void up sometimes I do that.

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Speaker 5: Do that leave?

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Speaker 1: Gary began to notice that sometimes Mama Rose didn't seem

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Speaker 1: quite all there. She was starting to get forgetful well.

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Speaker 3: When she asked me to go to the store three

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Speaker 3: times in the road two three times for the same thing,

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Speaker 3: and she kept on giving me a fresh twenty now

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Speaker 3: And the second Time'm like this, I just went to

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Speaker 3: the store for you. It got the same thing. She

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Speaker 3: was like, just go again, all right, So I just

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Speaker 3: took the money and went again.

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Speaker 7: What was it that she wanted?

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Speaker 3: I think it was a tall candle bit.

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Speaker 5: She was a excuse me, my sprience. She was a bit.

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Speaker 1: This is Gary's brother Aaron.

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Speaker 7: Again.

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Speaker 5: Malros was a big liar.

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Speaker 7: Too, Like what kinds of things had she made up?

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Speaker 6: She would like, my mother would cook dinner and everything.

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Speaker 6: She would tell her friends that she cooked the dinner,

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Speaker 6: took it, you know, took the credit for it.

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Speaker 5: Like I said, she was a piece of work.

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Speaker 6: I stayed with my father overnight when I was helping

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Speaker 6: her and fixed the house, and one of her girlfriends

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Speaker 6: came over and they got the drinking and playing cards

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Speaker 6: and everything. It was in the winter time with snow

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Speaker 6: on the steps out front. So they got in an argument.

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Speaker 6: So she told her to get the hell out of

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Speaker 6: her house, and she went to the front door, and

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Speaker 6: the Morrow's followed right behind her and kicked her dinner

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Speaker 6: at the icy steps.

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Speaker 3: She didn't go to church like she said she would.

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Speaker 3: Matter fact, I can't even remember the last time she

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Speaker 3: went to the last time she went to church. When

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Speaker 3: my granddad was living, she liked playing her numbers, she

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Speaker 3: liked going to Landing City. She's she's like any other

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Speaker 3: lady age.

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Speaker 8: You know what I'm saying, My grandma, I'm is not

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Speaker 8: gambling and drinking tall boys, So maybe not.

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Speaker 1: One week Gary had a girlfriend named Sharon visiting from Maryland.

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Speaker 1: When they sat down to dinner, Mama Rose noticed that

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Speaker 1: Sharon put hot sauce on her potato chips, and she

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Speaker 1: did not like that.

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Speaker 3: So maybe I will. Later my Roes called me and

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Speaker 3: she says, when is she leaving? I said, I think

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Speaker 3: she's leaving Sunday or Monday. She said when she do,

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Speaker 3: she can't come back. So I says, why, what's wrong?

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Speaker 3: She says, anybody put hot sauce on potato chips is

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Speaker 3: on drugs. I said, you don't even know her, you

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Speaker 3: just met her. How are you gonna say she on drugs?

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Speaker 3: She gonna say, trust me, I've been living along in you.

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Speaker 3: She's on drugs.

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Speaker 1: The arguments continued, and within a week or so, Gary

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Speaker 1: had enough of Mama Rose being in his business.

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Speaker 3: And I got, I got, I got fed up with it.

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Speaker 3: I was like this, Okay, I'm out here, you know

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Speaker 3: I'm saying. So I put the keys on the table

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Speaker 3: and packed my little stuff ahead.

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Speaker 1: Gary took off and went down to Delaware, where some

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Speaker 1: of his family lived. He knew he was taking a

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Speaker 1: risk jumping parole by leaving the state, but he had

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Speaker 1: had it with Mama Rose.

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Speaker 2: Early Saturday morning, February sixth, nineteen ninety nine, Rosemary Williams

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Speaker 2: called her daughters in law and told them that she

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Speaker 2: had been raped by her grandson, Gary Williams.

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Speaker 9: My name is.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Felber, and I had the Wrongful Conviction Unit at

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Speaker 2: the Legal Aid Society.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth has been working on Gary's case since twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Right from the beginning, they were conflicting versions of what occurred,

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Speaker 2: but the accusation that led to his arrest and indictment

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Speaker 2: was that he raped and sodomized his grandmother.

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Speaker 1: Here's what Mama Rose told the police had happened that

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Speaker 1: night and what she later testified to at trial. And

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Speaker 1: justa heads up, this next section is graphic.

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Speaker 2: Between Thursday and Friday, you know, like early Friday mornings,

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Speaker 2: say around four, Gary knocked on his grandmother's door, and

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Speaker 2: when he came in, he was naked, he was holding

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Speaker 2: a knife, he was smoking a cigarette, and he was

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Speaker 2: wearing a condom. And he told her that he wanted

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Speaker 2: to have sex, although he said it a little more

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Speaker 2: graphically according to Grandma Rose, and that he tried to

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Speaker 2: vaginally penetrate her, was unable to do so went and

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Speaker 2: got baby oil poured it all over her. Sorry, it's

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Speaker 2: just so awkward to have to tell this story. And

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Speaker 2: then he had oral sex, you know, you know, put

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Speaker 2: his mouth to her vagina, and then she claimed that

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Speaker 2: he tried to put his penis in her mouth and

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Speaker 2: she told him that if he did that, she was

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Speaker 2: going to bite his penis off. He said, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to kill you, and she said at another point

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Speaker 2: he sat down and started to cry and said he

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Speaker 2: was sorry. And then he went into his bedroom because

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Speaker 2: he was living with her at the time. She told

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Speaker 2: him she would make breakfast for him, and then she said,

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Speaker 2: when it looked like he was had fallen asleep, she

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Speaker 2: ran down the stairs and that he came after her,

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Speaker 2: calling Mama Rose come back. That she ran outside yelling fire.

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Speaker 2: She ran about a block away, I guess to a

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Speaker 2: school that was people were dropping their kids off at school.

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Speaker 2: Told some woman, help help, my grandson's going crazy, and

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Speaker 2: the woman offered to call the police. She didn't want

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Speaker 2: to go to the police. She said, drive me to

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Speaker 2: my friend's house, who was right down the street from

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Speaker 2: where she lived.

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Speaker 1: Mama Rose stayed overnight with her friend, Mary Cunningham. The

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Speaker 1: next day, she called Gary's mother, Margaret, and told her

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Speaker 1: that Gary had come into her bedroom and raped her

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Speaker 1: at knife point, and that there was blood everywhere. Margaret

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Speaker 1: immediately called Gary's father and told him what Mamma Rose

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Speaker 1: had said. Manuel and his brother Richard went to mam

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Speaker 1: Morose's house. Manual later reported seeing no blood on her

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Speaker 1: bed or in her bedroom. Nevertheless, the police were called.

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Speaker 2: I believe it was her younger son who called the police.

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Speaker 2: She didn't even want to call the police. She did

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Speaker 2: not want to go to the hospital. I suspect that

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Speaker 2: she whatever story she concocted, she realized it had gotten

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Speaker 2: out of control and she was trying to shut it down,

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Speaker 2: but it was like, you know, the train had already

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Speaker 2: left the station.

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Speaker 1: Police soon arrived at the scene to investigate, led by

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Speaker 1: Detective Linda Hardy. However, no official sex crimes unit was dispatched.

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Speaker 2: No evidence was collected at or house. There should have

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Speaker 2: been baby oil left trace, you know, even if someone

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Speaker 2: had taken off the sheets. There should have been baby

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Speaker 2: oil on the mattress, a knife, a cigarette that was

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Speaker 2: put out in an ashtray, a condom. She claimed she

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Speaker 2: washed herself with a washcloth. So none of that was

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Speaker 2: collected there, and there's no indication that the crime scene

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Speaker 2: unit even showed up.

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Speaker 1: Richard took Mama Rose to Jamaica Hospital in Queen's where

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Speaker 1: she was examined by doctor David Ware. Doctor Ware was

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Speaker 1: a resident at the time. He did not conduct a

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Speaker 1: proper forensic exam, and he failed to collect any physical

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Speaker 1: evidence that would have supported Mama Rose's story.

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Speaker 2: He should have swabbed her mouth and give it, you know,

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Speaker 2: those would have been samples that they could have checked

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Speaker 2: for any kind of you know, DNA of Gary Williams,

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Speaker 2: or even baby oil, honestly, anything that would have backed

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Speaker 2: up her story.

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Speaker 1: Most significantly, doctor Ware did not follow standard procedure by

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Speaker 1: administering a rape kit.

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Speaker 2: They didn't. They didn't follow it, and they have one

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Speaker 2: hundred excuses for why they didn't follow it. The clothing

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Speaker 2: wasn't taken, a rape kit wasn't done, so there was

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Speaker 2: no physical evidence to support her story.

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Speaker 7: Gary was unaware of all of this.

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Speaker 1: After going to Delaware, he went to stay in Newport News, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: with Sharon. When he talked to his mother on the phone,

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Speaker 1: she did tell him police were looking for him, and

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Speaker 1: Gary assumed it was because he had jumped parole until

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Speaker 1: she told him what Mama Rose had accused him of.

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Speaker 3: I said you, so, she said, yes, she said they're

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Speaker 3: looking for you. You know, I'm saying I'm expecting her.

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Speaker 3: I'm only expecting one person looking for me, parole officer.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm expecting. When she said when she said happened,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't there. I wasn't living there. I was gone.

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Speaker 1: Gary decided the best thing to do would be to

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Speaker 1: turn himself into the authorities in Virginia When.

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Speaker 7: You turned yourself in, what were you thinking? Were you like,

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Speaker 7: this is all going to get cleared up? Like what

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Speaker 7: did you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to get this behind me. I want

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Speaker 3: to get this overweight. You know I'm innocent, Yes, let's go. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But it didn't happen that way because I had to

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Speaker 3: do a parole violation first.

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Speaker 1: But the parole violation was nothing compared to what was

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Speaker 1: coming next. Once Gary returned to New York, he was

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Speaker 1: arrested and charged with first degree rape, sawomy, possession of

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Speaker 1: a weapon, and second degree menacing an incest.

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Speaker 7: So do you remember when this happened?

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Speaker 6: I know my mother called me and told me that

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Speaker 6: they arrested Gary, and she told me the reason why.

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Speaker 6: I just couldn't believe it. I say, it got to

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Speaker 6: be lies. Something they right here. I know Gary, Gary

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Speaker 6: would never do anything like that.

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Speaker 1: His trial was set for July of two thousand and

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Speaker 1: one in front of Judge Richard Buckter. The prosecutor was

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Speaker 1: Assistant District Attorney Eric Rosenbaum, and Gary's attorney was Lewis Meehan.

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Speaker 1: So the first trial, how were you feeling the first

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Speaker 1: trial after hearing everything and they're going to do the verdict.

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Speaker 1: How did you feel?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 3: I was nervous. No, I already know if they if

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Speaker 3: they convict me, they're gonna give me twenty five life

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Speaker 3: because of my past history. I already know that. And

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Speaker 3: and they offered me plea boggains that I ain't take.

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Speaker 1: What did they offer you?

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Speaker 3: Oh? They offered me a flat fifteen. First of all,

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Speaker 3: they don't offer no body but my record a flat

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Speaker 3: bay off. You always put the l behind you. Fifteen

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Speaker 3: a life with me? They offer me flat fifteen. I

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Speaker 3: told him I did not do it. I'm not taking it.

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Speaker 3: Then a month and a half later he says, the

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Speaker 3: lawyer be like this. He says, okay, the flat fifteen

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Speaker 3: is off the table. They offered me a flat five

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Speaker 3: just for the day. You want it, I says, dope.

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Speaker 3: Then when they had to split verdict, they offered me

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Speaker 3: one of the three.

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Speaker 7: And you didn't take that either.

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Speaker 3: No, I didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: The jury believed that there just wasn't enough evidence to convict,

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Speaker 1: and the first trial ended in a hung jury.

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Speaker 2: So he actually had two trials, which I find is

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Speaker 2: not uncommon when we have wrongful convictions like the juries

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Speaker 2: are pretty smart, and they really wrestled with the lack

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Speaker 2: of evidence.

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Speaker 1: At that point, Gary requested a change of attorney. Harold

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Speaker 1: Erin Trowe was appointed and reported ready for trial just

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Speaker 1: a few days later, and that is not nearly enough

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Speaker 1: time to prepare for a case based on such serious charges.

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Speaker 3: He gives me a new lawyer, I think on a Wednesday.

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Speaker 3: On Thursday. Then we was picking a new jury Monday.

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Speaker 3: So there's no way this new attorney didn't no investigation.

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Speaker 3: There's no way. It wasn't no private investigating. He just

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Speaker 3: took me to trial investigating the case. I said, you

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Speaker 3: just got this case last week. He said, yeah, but

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Speaker 3: I glanced through your paperwork. He says he got nothing

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Speaker 3: on you. I says, why I'm in hidding. He says,

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Speaker 3: trust me, you will be all right.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: Forty four years later, here I go.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.

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Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for

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Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing

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Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Freedom Agenda

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Speaker 1: is a proud sponsor of this episode of Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted by incarceration

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00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: and their organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams to follow

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00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now, thousands

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00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions.

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Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more

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Speaker 1: just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting

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00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 1: the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system,

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Speaker 1: and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To

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Speaker 1: learn more about the Campaign to Close Rikers and to

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00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 1: sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list, go to Campaign

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Speaker 1: to Close Rikers dot org, slash, get involved, or follow

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00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 1: at Freedom Agenda n Y on social media. In September

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Speaker 1: of two thousand and one, Gary's second trial began.

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Speaker 2: What was really striking about the trial was there was

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Speaker 2: absolutely no law enforcement evidence proffered. They had no police

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Speaker 2: officer testify at trial. I've never seen that at a trial,

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Speaker 2: even if it's an officer called to the witness stand

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Speaker 2: to say I arrested you know, John Smith. Like nothing.

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Speaker 1: Instead, the prosecution focused on Mamma Rose as their primary witness.

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Speaker 1: In her testimony, she repeated the story she had told

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Speaker 1: Detective Hearty. She and Gary had argued. He later came

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Speaker 1: to her bedroom, threatened her with a knife and assaulted her.

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Speaker 1: Mary Cunningham took the stand to say that Mamma Rose

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Speaker 1: had banged on her door, told her that she'd been raped,

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Speaker 1: and then spent the night. Gary's uncle, Rick, testified to

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Speaker 1: driving his mother to the hospital and said that he'd

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Speaker 1: seen bruises around her mouth.

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Speaker 7: That day.

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Speaker 2: Mama Rose had testified that she was black and blue

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Speaker 2: all over from him hitting her mouth with his penis.

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Speaker 2: That was her testimony, and Richard at the first trial

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Speaker 2: said that she had lacerations all over her mouth, and

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Speaker 2: at the second trial he said she was very black

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Speaker 2: and blue, so he corrected himself.

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Speaker 1: The most damning testimony the Jerry heard was from doctor Ware,

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Speaker 1: the resident at Jamaica Hospital. He told the court that

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Speaker 1: when he examined Mama Rose, he believed her account of

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Speaker 1: the assault, even though he hadn't observed any injuries.

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Speaker 2: Again, not part of a typical forensic exam. It's not

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Speaker 2: their place to vouch for the credibility of a witness,

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Speaker 2: but he said she seemed very credible. He said, because

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Speaker 2: there was no rape kit, he made a point of

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Speaker 2: being extra careful in his evaluation. He said he didn't

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Speaker 2: see any injuries. He didn't see any injuries on her

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Speaker 2: vagina or her mouth. He claimed that you couldn't see

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Speaker 2: bruising on her because she was African American, so it's

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Speaker 2: hard to see bruising on an African American person. And

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the thing that jumped out at

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Speaker 2: me the most was he said he was really surprised

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Speaker 2: that because she had a this is a quote, a

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Speaker 2: very elastic vagina that for an eighty five year old

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Speaker 2: woman like it was more like someone in their sixties.

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Speaker 1: When asked why he didn't follow hospital protocol and administer

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Speaker 1: a rape kit, doctor Ware gave a number of excuses.

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Speaker 2: The stated reason on the record was that they ran

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Speaker 2: out of rape kits at Jamaica Hospital and he didn't

440
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 2: know where rape kits came from. He said, Oh, I

441
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: think they're like a law enforcement thing. There's a lot

442
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: of hospitals that are close by, and sometimes the SVU

443
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: detective has a rape kit, and ambulances have rape kits.

444
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: They're pretty easy to get. You would know where rape

445
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: kits come from, and you would know that you could

446
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: do a makeshift rape kit, if you improvise a rape kit,

447
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: if you had to.

448
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 8: I mean, how does a case like this wind up

449
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 8: being tried if there's no evidence.

450
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 7: It was really just Mama Rose and Richard.

451
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 2: Yes, Mama Rose and Richard, and the DA in his

452
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: summation said he fled, so that's they use that against him.

453
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: He fled. They looked for him for weeks and weeks

454
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: and weeks, the guilty flee. You know, poor Mama Rose,

455
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: she was so embarrassed that she had to go through this,

456
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: the indignity of it. You know, he really appealed to

457
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: their sympathy, so they really I think it was a

458
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: lot of bias, and you know, they went with you know,

459
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: mom like, why would she come in? Was basically what

460
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: they said. Why would she come in? She's not senile,

461
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: why would she come in? I mean, it is a

462
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: crazy story. I know, throughout the paperwork you see all

463
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: these people acting like they have a crystal ball and

464
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 2: they can tell what the truth is. You know, I

465
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: spoke to Grandma, to Mama Rose, and I believe her.

466
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: Something happened here, something happened. She's a great eighty five

467
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: years old, and he has you know, felony record. They

468
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: just decided that he's a terrible person. And poor Mama Rose,

469
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: you know, she's like baking brownies and going to church.

470
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: You know, they have this whole picture of her, which

471
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: you know, leaves out the card parties and getting drunk

472
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: and mean and still up and out with a married

473
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: man named Fred. You know, it doesn't really matter, but

474
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 2: they just they came up with their own narrative.

475
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: After three days of deliberation, the jury returned a split verdict.

476
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: They acquitted Gary of the rape and weapons charges, but

477
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: they convicted him of incest, second degree menacing, and first

478
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: degree saw tom me. Gary was sentenced to twenty five

479
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: to life in prison.

480
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what convinced the jury. I think it

481
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: was probably a compromise. You know, I'm guessing that there

482
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 2: were still a lot of jurors that didn't believe it.

483
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: At the first trial, several of the notes were like, noo,

484
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: can you explain, Like can you still convict if there's

485
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 2: no evidence? You know, to like they really honed in

486
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: on the fact that there was no evidence.

487
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: You know, I believe that I'm here by the doctor Lyneon. Understand.

488
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: This is why I believe I was convicted by the

489
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: doctor Lion. He lied more than one time, and he

490
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: convinced the jewelry. This is why I meant.

491
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 6: There were so many lies and so many things that

492
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 6: weren't presented in his case in his trial.

493
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 5: And it's a bunch of bullshit to men.

494
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 6: I mean, if you want to do this to a person,

495
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 6: take that life just because you want to win.

496
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 10: And that's kind of crappy.

497
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 3: It's hard to have friends in prison, you know. It's

498
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 3: a cold world in here. I ain't know how to

499
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 3: deal with it. I ain't never been in prison for

500
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: nothing like this. This right his it's different. It's a

501
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 3: different hit, you know what I'm saying. They had to

502
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,959
Speaker 3: split verdict. I was found out guilty of rape, right

503
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: but but it's it's like it's still the same though

504
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: it's still the same to these people's because I gotta

505
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: I gotta be on I gotta I gotta be on

506
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,239
Speaker 3: my p's and q's every step of the day, every ray,

507
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 3: everywhere I go. I gotta watch, you know what I'm saying,

508
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 3: Because I don't know. I don't know what's coming, what

509
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: could what could happen? A lot of things can happen,

510
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: I know, this one white guy, or I saw two

511
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: guys run up in the cell and beat him up

512
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: because he had a case like this. You know what

513
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: I'm saying.

514
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 7: Has things happened to you?

515
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 3: Yes? I got jumped twice by correction officers.

516
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: Were you close with your parents?

517
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah?

518
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 7: And did they always believe you believe in your innocence?

519
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: Yes?

520
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 5: M hmm.

521
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 7: So what what was.

522
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: That like trying to maintain a relationship with your family

523
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: while in prison.

524
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: It was really hard because there was that They all

525
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 3: moved down South Frost they retired, they moved back down south,

526
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 3: so it was hard. It was hard for me to

527
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: get a visit because nobody would bring my mom's up

528
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 3: and my post was sickly and she got sick. They

529
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: both passed away, though it was rough because I couldn't

530
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: go to their funals. I called my cousin when they

531
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: was having my mother's services. He accepted the call and

532
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: I was listening to the preacher. I was listening, you

533
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, for half an hour. So that

534
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: was it.

535
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: Over the course of a decade, Gary filed many appeals,

536
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: all of which were denied. Finally, in twenty thirteen, Gary

537
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: reached out to Elizabeth Felber.

538
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: Gary first wrote to me. Before I was working in this,

539
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: you know, doing wrongful conviction work. I had had a

540
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: few cases that where people were exonerated, and I wish

541
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: I still had. That letter was ten years ago, but

542
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: just reading it, I was just blown away by what

543
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: a horrifying case it was. And I called his parents

544
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: and I remember they both sadly have passed away since then.

545
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: They were the nicest people, and they both were like, Oh,

546
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: thank god, somebody's finally trying to help Gary.

547
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 8: What made you say I need to look deeper into

548
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 8: this because this does sound like Ahisha said.

549
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 7: She said, it's a difficult one.

550
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: He told me there was no rape kit, there was

551
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: no physical evidence. I think that there was nothing supporting

552
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: the allegations. There were no injuries. I mean, if he

553
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: had really raped an eighty five year old woman like

554
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: there would have been injuries.

555
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, Elizabeth became the head of a newly

556
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: formed wrongful conviction unit at the Legal Aid Society, and

557
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: she began working on Gary's case. Officially, she hired an expert,

558
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: Chad Vasquez, to delve into the police investigation.

559
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: He was a sex crimes detective for twenty years, said

560
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: I've never seen a case like this, and this investigation

561
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: and prosecution are fatally flawed, was his words. He said,

562
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: nobody wants to be the person that accuses the person

563
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: who's making these allegations of making it up, especially an

564
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: eighty five year old grandmother, you know, like nobody wants

565
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: to say, I don't believe you, Mama Rose, you know, Mike.

566
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: But they have an obligation to follow the protocols and

567
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: they didn't do that, either in the investigation or at

568
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: the hospital. He said, you have to call the crime

569
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: scene unit. They should have spoken to the outcry witness

570
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: of woman next door. They should have tried to track

571
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 2: down this alleged woman in the car, you know. They

572
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: should have obtained the clothing. So he said, none of

573
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: that was done in this case.

574
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: Elizabeth also consulted a forensics expert, Aline Pagliaro, a sexual

575
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: assault nurse examiner Melissa Stone, and a retired nurse who

576
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: had worked at Jamaica Hospital at the time of Mama

577
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: Rose's visit.

578
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 7: Want It a Vega.

579
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: All three of them agreed that doctor Ware had not

580
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: followed standard protocol for a rape examination.

581
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: I don't believe that if a jury heard what we've

582
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: learned from these you know, this nurse and this forensic scientists,

583
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: that they would have convicted him. Because both jury struggled.

584
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: And as it turns out, there appeared to have been

585
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: some family dynamics at play.

586
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: I personally think the first lawyer did a better job

587
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: than the second lawyer because he brought out some facts

588
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: that you know, gave the younger son a motive to lie.

589
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: By the time of the first trial, Gary's uncle Rick

590
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: had sold Mama Rose's house in Queen's for around seventy

591
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Mama Rose was now living with him in

592
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: New Jersey.

593
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: And she testified there was no money left over. So

594
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: someone made about seventy thousand dollars on the house, and

595
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: it sounds like it wasn't her.

596
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: What happened was Rick took over everything. Rick snashed the uh,

597
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: took her to his house, he got out the side

598
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 3: of papers the power attorney. Then he went and sold

599
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: the house. After he got the money, he put it

600
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: in anotional. He got rid of them.

601
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: He also said there was no will, but we have

602
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: a copy of the will, and the will specifically said

603
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: that the proceeds of the house were to be shared

604
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: with the two other siblings, so we think, you know,

605
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: the uncle had a financial motive for backing her up.

606
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: After interviewing a number of family members, Elizabeth learned something

607
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: else that really turned the case upside down. According to

608
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: Gary's brother Manuel, who also went by Skip, Mama Rose

609
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: had regrets in her later years and was dropping hints

610
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: that her accusation wasn't true.

611
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: And Skip said that he and Mama Rose were drinking

612
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: beer one day on the porch and she said, I'm

613
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: too old to go to prison, but it's time to

614
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: get Gary out, you know. And he took that as

615
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: an emission on her part.

616
00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 5: I think she told about flow there.

617
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 6: He told me that man Rose and Rick had said,

618
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 6: I think Gary's been there long enough six time for

619
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 6: us to get him out. To me, that's a mission

620
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 6: of guilt, both of them, the one, the ones that lie,

621
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 6: both of them took her to their grave and or

622
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 6: Gary still in there. Half his life was spent in

623
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 6: jail because.

624
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 7: Of this, and you and your uncle as in both

625
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 7: of them.

626
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 6: Yes, that was her child and they were two of

627
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 6: a kind. He was money hungry. I'm telling you right now,

628
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 6: he's money hungry, and so.

629
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 7: Would what would getting rid of Gary have to do

630
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 7: with anything? Why would that help their situation?

631
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 6: Well, for one thing, Gary was inquisitive, and they knew

632
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 6: that my father would do anything to help Gary out.

633
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 6: I had nothing to do with neither one of them.

634
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 6: After they did this shit. Expression Yeah, it really fucked

635
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 6: me up. I mean because I couldn't believe this shit.

636
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 6: And then to me, after all these years, you admit this,

637
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 6: you admit what you did, and then you took it

638
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 6: to your grave with you and still he's still locked

639
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 6: up behind what they did.

640
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 11: Today is January ninth, twenty twenty. This is investigated Thomas

641
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 11: McCall from the Legal Late Society. I am at Israel

642
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 11: Hospital in Newark, New Jersey.

643
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 5: So what's your name? Richard R. Wade.

644
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: Mama Rose passed away in twenty eleven and Uncle Rick

645
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: died in March of twenty twenty. But when he was

646
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: interviewed by a legal aid investigator for Elizabeth, Uncle Rick

647
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: turned out to have some surprising revelations about Mama Rose.

648
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 9: He did not have sex with her, though I don't

649
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 9: believe how'd you find that out? Just talking with her

650
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 9: and listening to her and feeling her out. She just

651
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 9: felt bad. I don't think she really hardly understood the

652
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 9: depth of this thing, and she just felt bad. Shore

653
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 9: would played Shurewood did it. I think her mind wasn't right,

654
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 9: and I think she was very remorseful of the fact

655
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 9: that he should have testified against her, that he really

656
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 9: did drew the things that they claimed.

657
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: The skip said that she was mad at him and

658
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: she wanted to punish him by getting him locked up,

659
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: and she was pressured into testifying by the prosecution who

660
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: said he could sue you. But I don't think she

661
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: realized that accusing someone of rape, particularly if they have

662
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: a record, which he did, could result in a life

663
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: prison in prison sentence.

664
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 1: And perhaps that's because what Gary had noticed was off

665
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: with Mama Rose was that she might have been suffering

666
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: from dementia.

667
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 2: Like the father said, he thought that his mother wasn't

668
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: right in the head, that she was a little senile.

669
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: Even I think my uncle said in one of his

670
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: statements that it was he he thinks that she was

671
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: seen out. Ain't nobody never tested though for dementia. Old

672
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: Thomas disease had two lawyers. Ain't nobody never tested up.

673
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 7: Do you forgive your grandmother.

674
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I have to because I believe that something was

675
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 3: wrong with her and she ad met to my uncle

676
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 3: that didn't happen.

677
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: With all of this new evidence, the expert testimony, along

678
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: with the family statements, Elizabeth believes that they can show

679
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: that Gary's rights were violated and that he will be released.

680
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 7: Where is Gary's case at now?

681
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: I literally just filed a motion to vacate the conviction

682
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: based on ineffective assistance of counsel, for not doing a

683
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: proper investigation, for not consulting with experts, for not familiarizing

684
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: himself with the trial of the first transcript, which is

685
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 2: a gold mine to have a transcript of what everyone's

686
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: going to say already. And I also moved to just,

687
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: you know, vacate the conviction because it was I can't

688
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: remember the exact lingle language, but based upon fraud and

689
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: misrepresentation because the DA relied heavily on doctor wears testimony,

690
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: which is a series of misrepresentations. He will be up

691
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: for parole next year. However, catch twenty two. When you've

692
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: been convicted of sex crime, you have to take a

693
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: sex offender treatment program and admit your guilt, so you know,

694
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 2: that's problematic, and he will also be a registered sex offender.

695
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: Who wants to be a sex offender or registered sex offender.

696
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: Everywhere I'll go, everybody knows my business. Why would I

697
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 3: want that?

698
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 5: Now?

699
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 3: If I really did it, I would have took them pleaboll. Yeah,

700
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 3: let me take it now.

701
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 7: When you get out, What kinds of things do you

702
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 7: want to do?

703
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 3: Go visit my brother, spend time with these grandkids. Spend

704
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 3: time with my own great nieces and nephews I never

705
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 3: met before. Spend time with my fiance. Uh, eat the

706
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 3: food I like to eat.

707
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: What's what's up?

708
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: Pizza? They got pizza here, but they ain't pizza that

709
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: got there? Pizza, steak, you know, good food. Let y'all

710
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: eat every day whatever y'all want to eat. That's what

711
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 3: I want to eat.

712
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

713
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freelink.

714
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

715
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.

716
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,

717
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea,

718
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beal, and.

719
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 7: Researcher Shelby Sorels.

720
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional

721
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in

722
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

723
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms

724
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can

725
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 1: also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful

726
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for

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00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one