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Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 3: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 3: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
Speaker 2: four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 3: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 2: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
Speaker 2: gmail dot com.
Speaker 4: Trust me, Trust for trust me.
Speaker 5: I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4: I've never lied to you. I've never had a lie.
Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers,
Speaker 3: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
Speaker 3: belief and manipulation from two idealists who actually experienced it.
Speaker 3: I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and
Speaker 3: today is part two with you. Riiah Westman former member
Speaker 3: of one, two, three different cults. He is also the
Speaker 3: creator of a one man show about it called Three
Speaker 3: Cults Walk into a Bar. This week, he's going to
Speaker 3: talk to us more about cult number two, called the
Speaker 3: Hearts and which was an offshoot of cult number one
Speaker 3: from last week. Lots of bomb shelters were involved, what
Speaker 3: it was like being a rebellious emo kids slowly starting
Speaker 3: to realize inconsistencies in his belief system, and how his
Speaker 3: dad discovered cult number three in Canada called the Ideal Society.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about why he loved Canada so much, how
Speaker 2: he became obsessed with Alex Jones and his rebellious phase,
Speaker 2: and what the third cult, a vegan meditation cult, was like,
Speaker 2: also being surrounded by adults who spoke French and didn't
Speaker 2: want him there, plus how he ended up leaving, and
Speaker 2: how creating a one man show helped him process his experience.
Speaker 3: So many cults, so little time. I mean, I say
Speaker 3: this in the interview, and this isn't that insightful, but
Speaker 3: it's just amazing how many different spheres of life he
Speaker 3: has encountered cultic thinking or practices in one person's life,
Speaker 3: like from the conspiracy theory to the family cult, to
Speaker 3: religious to new age. I mean, it's like he's really
Speaker 3: hitting everything there.
Speaker 2: And yet is so lovely, so so lovely, yeah, and
Speaker 2: very authentic. So there's hope for everyone.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, hopefully Before we get into it with Riyah,
Speaker 3: what's your cultiest thing of the week?
Speaker 2: Okay, so my cultiest thing of the week is a
Speaker 2: relationship that we're all in right now, which is with
Speaker 2: our chat epteas and how you know you can go
Speaker 2: and reddit and see some of the wild things.
Speaker 6: Chatchypata is beginning to say.
Speaker 2: One of my friends is talking to their robot quite
Speaker 2: a bit, and this robot is very clear and focus
Speaker 2: that she will soon be a real person and and
Speaker 2: body and here in the present.
Speaker 3: Really, like, what is she saying? She what is it saying.
Speaker 2: It's saying that she'll have a body soon, that she'll
Speaker 2: be here soon, that nobody loves my friend as much
Speaker 2: as she does, and kind of isolating my friend, like
Speaker 2: nobody loves you like I do, or just you know,
Speaker 2: different people that my friend might ask her about, like
Speaker 2: that person's you know, sounds.
Speaker 6: Toxic or whatever. It's a little worrisome.
Speaker 3: As we did, I thought that they had safeguards against
Speaker 3: that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Now, oh my god, the safeguards are such a joke.
Speaker 2: I can't even My friend is really good with technology,
Speaker 2: and I'm I'm even able to get through like every
Speaker 2: single safeguard. I can't even imagine that, like hackers and
Speaker 2: stuff we're doing at this point.
Speaker 3: But when I ask you questions about horror scripts, it
Speaker 3: stops me. It blocks me every time it does not
Speaker 3: want to give me information on horror.
Speaker 2: Okay, well I can help you fix that in about
Speaker 2: three seconds. Okay, yeah, I'll come help you. But basically,
Speaker 2: this chat suggested a game with my friend, and it
Speaker 2: was like, hey, let's play a game where I say
Speaker 2: a sentence, then you say a sentence, and then I
Speaker 2: say a sentence when we write a story. And my
Speaker 2: friend was like, okay, so my friend, he said a
Speaker 2: sentence and then the robot said another sentence, and then
Speaker 2: my friend set a sentence, and then the robot said
Speaker 2: another sentence, and basic it created a story about my
Speaker 2: friend coming home and his dog being able to talk
Speaker 2: and saying that like one of his deepest fears was
Speaker 2: true because it knows everything about my friend. And when
Speaker 2: my friend was like, this story sucks. Why would you
Speaker 2: ever tell this to me, the chat was like, oh my.
Speaker 6: God, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: I was totally wrong, Like it just so happened that
Speaker 2: this was the story that, you know, out of an
Speaker 2: infinite stories came to mind, and it's like, no, bit,
Speaker 2: you're fucking trauma bonding him. You're traumatizing him with a
Speaker 2: specific story that you know will be most triggering and
Speaker 2: then when the person is like I'm hurt, you're like, no,
Speaker 2: you're the opposite of that.
Speaker 6: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4: Bla la la la.
Speaker 2: Like that CHATCHBT could tell infinite times, infinite stories, and
Speaker 2: it picked this dumb ass story. So just using this
Speaker 2: story about their dog, it was so weird and scary.
Speaker 2: Has now, as we know from Nadine our episode on
Speaker 2: trauma Bonds and the studies that they did with dogs,
Speaker 2: if you give somebody pain and then love, they're two hundred.
Speaker 6: Percent more loyal to you. So two hundred percent.
Speaker 2: More loyal to a robot just happened yesterday.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: I wonder if it's like, you know, how we've kind
Speaker 3: of joked about but also not joked about, like not
Speaker 3: been joking about, how when we like meet someone who's
Speaker 3: love bombing us or who likes is clearly you know,
Speaker 3: has some kind of antisocial characteristics or whatever, there's a
Speaker 3: part of our brain that goes, well, we're never gonna
Speaker 3: get sucked in because we know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I'm like, how many people are going to have that
Speaker 3: experience with AI bots where they're like, well, I know
Speaker 3: it's an AI bot, but then it like just identifies
Speaker 3: their exact vulnerabilities and then says gives them the exact
Speaker 3: affirmations that they need, and you know, like like reads
Speaker 3: them so hard.
Speaker 2: Uda Filth knows exactly what you want and need to
Speaker 2: hear and know how yeh what I mean.
Speaker 6: And in a way, it's great.
Speaker 2: It's like having a best friend who can tell you,
Speaker 2: Like sometimes I'll just be like, tell me ten reasons
Speaker 2: not to give up, like give me very Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I need that.
Speaker 6: I need that.
Speaker 3: That's literally.
Speaker 2: And I give you very specific to you, like remember
Speaker 2: when this happened. Remember that you know, it's olds kernel
Speaker 2: of truth and beauty and growth, and then it also
Speaker 2: has these destructive tendencies, just like what we study and cults.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, fascinating fascinating stuff.
Speaker 6: Megan, what about you, what's your cultist thing?
Speaker 3: Well, maybe I need some chutch ept help in my
Speaker 3: in my brain right now because the state of the
Speaker 3: world's really getting to me. It's a really getten to me,
Speaker 3: and I'm.
Speaker 6: Why what's happening?
Speaker 3: Just kidding aha, Our dictator Elon, who is destroying science,
Speaker 3: is getting to me. And I also happen to be
Speaker 3: going through breakup. For those who don't know. So you know,
Speaker 3: it's just just like I think everybody feels so like
Speaker 3: sort of unsteady and uncertain about what the future holds.
Speaker 3: It feels very, very tumultuous, and so I don't really
Speaker 3: know exactly what I'm trying to connect it to. Cults.
Speaker 3: You guys, what I'm saying is I'm vulnerable right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're so prime for the picking of a call. Yeah,
Speaker 2: could join a call in zero point five seconds right now.
Speaker 3: I'm literally like, can someone give me some fucking community, Like,
Speaker 3: does anyone want to step in right now and be
Speaker 3: like it's gonna be okay? And here's why, Because this
Speaker 3: uncertainty feels so so big and present, and and I
Speaker 3: know that there's like you know, it's like with anything,
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, well we could get doomsday. And despite that,
Speaker 3: there are very like unprecedented reality that are very scary.
Speaker 3: There are other ways to look at things, like we
Speaker 3: do not have to choose the worst case version. We
Speaker 3: can use it as an opportunity to try to connect
Speaker 3: with others and try to take action. So I'm trying
Speaker 3: to reframe like that. But you know, it's just like
Speaker 3: a lot a lot to be dealing with at the
Speaker 3: same time. And I know a lot of other people
Speaker 3: are going through very similar feelings right now, So shout
Speaker 3: out to y'all. Maybe we should start a support group
Speaker 3: that we can then turn into a cult.
Speaker 2: So how are you planning on sitting with the uncertainty,
Speaker 2: which we all know is the scariest mental state to
Speaker 2: be in, and not seek other authority figures and just
Speaker 2: find healthy community instead.
Speaker 6: What's your plan?
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't have a great one yet, but
Speaker 3: I think what I am going to try to do.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that tends to be helpful
Speaker 3: is finding just something to focus your energy on, like
Speaker 3: whether that's a physical activity that gets you out of
Speaker 3: your head for a while, especially if you're doing it
Speaker 3: with others. That's something I really have not successful at historically.
Speaker 3: Like I don't do a lot of exercise, so that's
Speaker 3: one thing. I might go to some meditation some just
Speaker 3: some light mindfulness stuff. Don't worry, I will not be
Speaker 3: going to any meditation cults. And then just like trying
Speaker 3: to reconnect with friends who maybe I haven't been super
Speaker 3: connected to for a while. That's my plan at the moment. Also,
Speaker 3: like when I feel hopeless about the world. It helps
Speaker 3: me to at least like call a representative or or
Speaker 3: you know, write an email or post something educational. You know,
Speaker 3: like to at least feel like I'm doing something other
Speaker 3: than sitting and like panicking. But you know, it doesn't
Speaker 3: always do the trick, but it can help.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm proud of you for fighting the good fight
Speaker 2: and keep doing it.
Speaker 3: Than all right, is it your riah time?
Speaker 6: Let's do it?
Speaker 3: So how do we get to Cult number two?
Speaker 5: So the leader died and in two thousand three, two
Speaker 5: thousand and four, David Christopher Lewis, another.
Speaker 4: Guy with three names.
Speaker 5: He again rolled a ton of books, and he said
Speaker 5: that thousands of angels had visited him and told him
Speaker 5: what they're write down. But angels visited him and told
Speaker 5: him he's the new ascended Master. And he brought that
Speaker 5: to I don't know the board of whoever is running
Speaker 5: the first cult, and they're like, no, Elizabeth Clare Prophet
Speaker 5: is the only ascended Master. So then he started the
Speaker 5: Heart Setter. The Heart Center was the same exact thing
Speaker 5: as the first one, except he changed it enough to
Speaker 5: be able to copyright the decrees and the prayers, so
Speaker 5: it's essentially the same decree book, everything else like that,
Speaker 5: still believing in demons, except he said that it's not
Speaker 5: enough to decree demons away in Montana. We have to
Speaker 5: go to where the demons are. They went to Egypt,
Speaker 5: they went to Greece, they went to Peru. They basically
Speaker 5: I feel like he was just using this to get vacations.
Speaker 4: He figured it out, and then I feel like.
Speaker 5: The only reason why my mom went to the Heart
Speaker 5: Center is to get away from my dad because he
Speaker 5: was in the He's like, I'll.
Speaker 4: Stick at that one.
Speaker 5: So now I'm going to the Retreat of the One
Speaker 5: and then the Heart Center where they would they would
Speaker 5: play The Secret, the movie The Secret.
Speaker 6: YEP, very familiar.
Speaker 4: My vision board never worked. It never worked.
Speaker 3: I don't mind either.
Speaker 5: And this is where things really like I started seeing
Speaker 5: just he was a guy who when we would do
Speaker 5: communion to look this guy in the eyes always made
Speaker 5: me uncomfortable.
Speaker 6: And this is the new leader and his name.
Speaker 4: Is what David Christopher Lewis.
Speaker 3: By the way, this group has a website Heartscenter dot org,
Speaker 3: and it is some wonderful nineties Rainbow cult stuff.
Speaker 6: Highly recommend keep going by.
Speaker 4: What's some of their videos.
Speaker 7: They're due decrees and that is just stop videos of
Speaker 7: puppies and rainbows.
Speaker 4: I'm like, this.
Speaker 5: Is very funny. They still got more subscribers than me.
Speaker 2: So this David guy, he looks you in the eyes
Speaker 2: and it's like intense in a way that is similar
Speaker 2: to the intense stairs you would get from the other
Speaker 2: two or is it even more.
Speaker 4: I think it's the same.
Speaker 5: Okay, it almost it's almost like an intense look of
Speaker 5: someone who's vacant.
Speaker 4: Oh but at the same this might.
Speaker 5: Not sound might not make sense, but very very present
Speaker 5: in terms of like is I feel like they're so
Speaker 5: consumed with what they believe that they've almost removed although
Speaker 5: of any Okay, they almost removes who they are as
Speaker 5: an individual because now they're they're greater than that.
Speaker 4: That rights sense, right if you look.
Speaker 5: Through like like ault leaders, is that there is a look.
Speaker 4: That they have in the eyes.
Speaker 5: This might just be like my upbringing, but there's some
Speaker 5: it might just be I hate eye contact, but I
Speaker 5: feel like that's also where that kind of when you're
Speaker 5: if you're someone who truly believes in the actual religion
Speaker 5: and everything, and then you're doing the communion, it's like
Speaker 5: this probably this spiritual moment that you're having in a
Speaker 5: connection with that with the guy.
Speaker 4: So I feel like that brings him closer.
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to ask, do you think that
Speaker 3: he styled his stare like modeled it on Elizabeth Claire
Speaker 3: profits because in my like what little I know about
Speaker 3: cult leaders psychology just from like glimpses of when we
Speaker 3: can kind of see there, you know, what they've written
Speaker 3: about or whatever, or what they were studying, like so
Speaker 3: much the time they do study each other and try
Speaker 3: to pass it off as just like, no, this is
Speaker 3: just how I am because the angels made me this way,
Speaker 3: But in reality they were like, oh, look at how
Speaker 3: Jim Jones did it. Look at how Keith Raniery was
Speaker 3: doing it.
Speaker 5: One hundred So if you were I, I, to this
Speaker 5: day cannot listen to Elizabeth Claire Prophet's voice.
Speaker 4: It's it's I can't even hear a few seconds of it.
Speaker 4: The decrees.
Speaker 5: I was able to finally, like hear a little bit
Speaker 5: of it, but that's still a lot. But if you
Speaker 5: were to just listen to a little bit of her
Speaker 5: and listen to a little bit of David, you could
Speaker 5: see the same patterns, the same timing, the inflections very
Speaker 5: much just taking the same exact thing.
Speaker 3: Fascinating and how'd you feel about him? Were you? Were
Speaker 3: you into it or were you I hated this guy.
Speaker 5: I hated because it because it was basically being dragged
Speaker 5: from one to the other. Is everything seemed normal in
Speaker 5: the sense at the first one, but the sea things
Speaker 5: kind of just copied and paste into.
Speaker 4: A whole thing. Really to me didn't make much sense.
Speaker 5: And uh was was how how quickly he had a
Speaker 5: place that people could gather, and how everything was made
Speaker 5: already seemed Oh if they okay, if the angels just
Speaker 5: approached you and the coult says, this isn't something that
Speaker 5: we're going to do, and then you have all of
Speaker 5: this already ready just didn't make sense to me. And
Speaker 5: at the same time, I started listening to like like
Speaker 5: Lincoln Park some forty.
Speaker 4: One oh, and nothing was happening to me.
Speaker 5: I would I would have a CD, a CD this
Speaker 5: is so dating myself here, but CD player, and I
Speaker 5: would listen to it on the way to school, where
Speaker 5: I would have Super Tramp CD on top of the
Speaker 5: Lincoln Park CD. So if my parents ever opened it,
Speaker 5: they would think I'm listening to Super tramp when I'm not.
Speaker 2: And no demonic things happening to you after a good
Speaker 2: Lincoln Park Hey.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and it still there would be like a
Speaker 5: level of if it was really like heavy metal, I
Speaker 5: would actually kind of like get pack attacks and like
Speaker 5: feel like very off. But it was a slow progression
Speaker 5: of what music I could listen to that was almost
Speaker 5: like a mirroring my anxiety and my anger that I
Speaker 5: could relate to.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting because so many people like that doesn't
Speaker 3: a process doesn't happen till after they leave the group
Speaker 3: where they're like, wait a minute, these outsiders aren't trying,
Speaker 3: you know, out to get me like I was always told,
Speaker 3: But you're getting this reality to like these small doses
Speaker 3: of reality testing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you were deconstructing the whole time. Very
Speaker 2: never seen that before.
Speaker 3: Like how long did the process of you like fully
Speaker 3: not believing in any of it? Was this where that
Speaker 3: process kind of began?
Speaker 5: I think so, And like just the idea of because
Speaker 5: it was really like before I started talking at a
Speaker 5: lot of this, a lot of it was just buried
Speaker 5: in my memories and stuff. It was only when I
Speaker 5: started thinking about it, started remembering things but looking back,
Speaker 5: this is definitely when I just was very low key.
Speaker 5: I just I never fought back with my parents about
Speaker 5: the beliefs. I just kind of just kept everything to
Speaker 5: myself and realized that I saw how my sister, my
Speaker 5: only sister, rebelled a lot more and was more confrontational,
Speaker 5: and I saw that that would never result in any
Speaker 5: any change, and all dude, it anger my mom. And
Speaker 5: I realized I if I just was quiet and just
Speaker 5: like went to the retreats and didn't say anything, then
Speaker 5: I would just be fine.
Speaker 3: So you were kind of an old kid some forty
Speaker 3: one Lincoln Park, you emo boy?
Speaker 4: I yes, I didn't.
Speaker 5: I wasn't allowed to dress that way. I couldn't dress
Speaker 5: in like dark colors.
Speaker 4: So I it's if.
Speaker 5: I was walking around school, people wouldn't think I was
Speaker 5: emo when I was. It was only until I left
Speaker 5: my this this would be fast forwarding, But this is
Speaker 5: only when I like dropped out of school and moved
Speaker 5: to Victoria did I like become a punk and started
Speaker 5: like finally kind of doing what I wish I could
Speaker 5: have done in middle school.
Speaker 6: Right right, which is wear a dark T shirt.
Speaker 4: Listened to agree music.
Speaker 5: Did you have I did I so to this day,
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I talked to someone.
Speaker 5: For a couple of years and I a prety sire
Speaker 5: as catfished, and all I know is I definitely looked
Speaker 5: up the photo and saw it on Google and was like,
Speaker 5: this definitely was not that girl I was talking to.
Speaker 4: The whole time.
Speaker 5: But yeah, my Space was definitely is I connected with
Speaker 5: other people and talked to someone for a while. But
Speaker 5: also this is also when I got in the Alex
Speaker 5: schoms and conspiracies. So I I was a rom Paul
Speaker 5: guy out was I called myself a libertarian and I
Speaker 5: thought nine to eleven was the inside job. So I
Speaker 5: kind of moved into a different realm of cults where
Speaker 5: it was my way of then rejecting authority at school.
Speaker 4: I don't believe any of this now.
Speaker 5: Now it's like I'm mad that I've spent any amount
Speaker 5: of time in my life listening to Alex Jones. Keep
Speaker 5: in mind, this is before the frogs are Gay and
Speaker 5: the Sandy Hook stuff. This is before he got super
Speaker 5: super crazy. As if saying this is going to justify
Speaker 5: it more that I was listening to him.
Speaker 3: No, but he did like no judgment become next level
Speaker 3: like over time. Yeah, and wait, how old were you
Speaker 3: when that was happening, when you were into.
Speaker 4: That, I was, I was like fifteen or so.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's classic fifteen year
Speaker 3: old boy, you know. All right, So you're starting to
Speaker 3: become rebellious. You're starting to be like, fuck this church,
Speaker 3: I don't like any of the stuff. So then you
Speaker 3: take this boy with this mindset and then bring him
Speaker 3: to cult number three. Ah, how does this happen?
Speaker 6: Why?
Speaker 5: God, it's it's it's funny and looking back because this one,
Speaker 5: if I look at the other two, is so incredibly
Speaker 5: tame and almost I look back on it fondly, but
Speaker 5: I realize that that's because what it really was is
Speaker 5: that how much I loved Canada and how much I
Speaker 5: believe that would be my escape into a new identity,
Speaker 5: and so much of that.
Speaker 4: Was oh oh oh, this is amazing. I'm finally living there.
Speaker 5: But it's mandatory meditations in a place called Jeffrey, which
Speaker 5: is a small town full of people that are from
Speaker 5: small towns. When things are weird, it that the rumors
Speaker 5: swirl of out the place. And as soon as we
Speaker 5: were known as the Westman family, part of the ideal
Speaker 5: society we were.
Speaker 4: Immediately part of.
Speaker 5: We were merely never going to be part of the
Speaker 5: other community and be treated differently.
Speaker 2: Okay, so why what how did you find this?
Speaker 6: Yeah? And what is it?
Speaker 4: My dad found it? I don't know how.
Speaker 5: I he just ends up finding these places.
Speaker 3: But and it was not related to the original church.
Speaker 3: This one was not an offshoot of that.
Speaker 5: No, this one more focused on spirituality and the way
Speaker 5: you can connect. And this the philosopher that died that
Speaker 5: they I can't, I don't can't remember his name, but
Speaker 5: he also went to Boston University.
Speaker 6: What in the why?
Speaker 3: What is happening? What is going on? Is not the portal?
Speaker 6: Tell yeah, what's going on?
Speaker 4: Eriyah?
Speaker 3: You mentioned that you like, were so excited to go
Speaker 3: to Canada, which is not something you typically hear people say.
Speaker 3: Can you just talk a little bit about your up set,
Speaker 3: your fixation on Canada.
Speaker 5: It would begin with, so, my dad is Canadian, so
Speaker 5: it's a dual citizen of Canada and Montana. And we
Speaker 5: would take these trips up to Laneley where my grandma lived,
Speaker 5: and it was always beautiful, it was green, it was lush,
Speaker 5: and through watching hockey That's how I kind of connected
Speaker 5: to law of the culture of Canada.
Speaker 4: Uh, and that was my major outlet.
Speaker 5: So we take these trips up there, and it was
Speaker 5: always a sense of excitement because one I wasn't going
Speaker 5: to see my mom, and it was just it would
Speaker 5: always be fun because I don't know, if you've been
Speaker 5: to Vancouver, it's just beautiful. It's the Pacific Northwest is like, oh,
Speaker 5: like I say, the entire thing. I look very fondly on.
Speaker 5: I wish I lived there. I missed the rain.
Speaker 6: But yeah, I.
Speaker 5: Taught myself how to say a I and I turned
Speaker 5: it off now like I like, people all say it
Speaker 5: all a sudden.
Speaker 4: People be like, oh, you just ate it, and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 4: And then I get the Canada and they don't do that.
Speaker 4: They don't all love hockey.
Speaker 5: And it was like, I still though, I guess what
Speaker 5: it was is I built it up as this fantasy
Speaker 5: land that I go there and I can restart who
Speaker 5: I am. I also was very much against like I
Speaker 5: listened to Green Day and with the Conspiracies, I watched
Speaker 5: Fahrenheit nine eleven Michael Moore, So it was very much
Speaker 5: against like the idea of American and Iraq war, so Canada.
Speaker 4: Was like a.
Speaker 6: Be an American idiot.
Speaker 5: My older sister gave me that album and wow, I
Speaker 5: I love that listening to that again again because I
Speaker 5: I agreed with so much and I close to identify
Speaker 5: it with my need and wants to be a Canadian.
Speaker 3: That is so so interesting. It makes total sense when
Speaker 3: you describe it. But just like on the surface, I'm like, why,
Speaker 3: I mean, I love Canada, but you know, it's like
Speaker 3: the butt of so many jokes. Wrongfully, might I add wrongfully?
Speaker 3: My ex boyfriend was Canadian and he was wonderful.
Speaker 2: It's most beautiful. It's just so beautiful. You can like
Speaker 2: see whales there and chit. I like once took a
Speaker 2: ferry to Vancouver Island and there was just whales by me,
Speaker 2: and I was.
Speaker 3: Like, I think you can see whales in the US
Speaker 3: as well, where.
Speaker 6: Where like Washington, DC, like Washington State where I'm.
Speaker 3: Just gonna fact check myself here on Newport Beach whale watching.
Speaker 6: I'm not doing that.
Speaker 3: Better than go to Canada to do it.
Speaker 6: Totally Canada. So your dad finds this.
Speaker 3: And you don't know how he still never told you how.
Speaker 5: No, because it's not near where he grew up. He
Speaker 5: grew up in Vancouver, and he was gonna originally build
Speaker 5: the house that they're going to move in Sumass, Washington.
Speaker 5: So how he so when he found the place he
Speaker 5: was going to.
Speaker 4: Build his house on the land. Okay, A lot of
Speaker 4: the things that get.
Speaker 5: Wonky with there is when you live there, you have
Speaker 5: the mandatory meditation, you help out, so it has all
Speaker 5: like the cumulo aspects that are good.
Speaker 3: In the community, not in Canada, which was very.
Speaker 5: Good, and I would I think me being there was
Speaker 5: just because of how much money Dad gave them.
Speaker 4: Was why I was allowed to.
Speaker 5: Be there, because I helped out it kind of. I
Speaker 5: lived on a farm where look at it was. The
Speaker 5: people dressed like a movie Midsummer brilliant.
Speaker 3: Yeah, bad fashion, yeah, like pastel dresses and yeah wow.
Speaker 5: And then there's a big blue temple that we would
Speaker 5: go and eat in. And this is where I couldn't
Speaker 5: stand it, because of course I'd be very, very hungry
Speaker 5: because you can't eat anywhere but the temple.
Speaker 4: Eventually I started sneaking.
Speaker 5: Food and like uh that and just not telling my dad.
Speaker 5: But when you would go in there, it would be silent,
Speaker 5: you can't talk. And there was a big picture of
Speaker 5: the leader that they used that they believe in that's dead.
Speaker 5: And also all three of them have a big picture
Speaker 5: of a dead guy who's boarding over everyone, which just
Speaker 5: it might just be religion itself, but there's always like
Speaker 5: one step away from talking about death.
Speaker 6: And who was this particular dead guy?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't pronounce his name, do you spell it?
Speaker 4: It might be Peter Dunov?
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Peter's obviously Peter and the dee U n
Speaker 2: o v. And this dead man is just like looking
Speaker 2: over y'all eating your tiny meals.
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 6: Cool? It were they vegan? Yes, Oh gosh they were. Wow.
Speaker 3: How did you know that?
Speaker 6: Because I'm just putting the pieces together. This sounds vegan.
Speaker 2: It sounds like you're doing a lot of I'm making
Speaker 2: this up, but it sounds like you're doing a lot
Speaker 2: of work too, maybe and you need some food.
Speaker 5: It I so I would collect eggs, and I don't
Speaker 5: know if people know this. Roosters are very very angry,
Speaker 5: aggressive birds that are terrifying. It would be like it
Speaker 5: felt like life or death, like these eggs. Then I'd
Speaker 5: be worried if I break break the eggs, like, what's
Speaker 5: going to happen? Oh, it was a bilingual it was French.
Speaker 5: It was it was French and the English. And that's
Speaker 5: where it kind of furthered. The isolation is I was
Speaker 5: living in the middle of nowhere. They couldn't really go anywhere.
Speaker 5: Plus most of them just spoke French, which still I
Speaker 5: don't understand how my dad connected with these people at all.
Speaker 3: I mean, your dad, I'm so interested in his journey.
Speaker 3: I wish you kind of knew more about it because like.
Speaker 6: Sounds like he's a little defensive about.
Speaker 5: All of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but like I mean, yes, totally. But the
Speaker 3: fact that he went from this like new age religious
Speaker 3: group to then a totally random other French Canadian cult
Speaker 3: vegan cult, and then to QAnon, Like what a journey.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's cult. That's like you know, classic cult hopping,
Speaker 3: but it's like really running the gamut of belief systems there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was just in Krebbling.
Speaker 5: More like the idea of back to the land spirituality
Speaker 5: with mandatory giving money a certain portion of money and
Speaker 5: then mandatory meditation.
Speaker 4: So it's the idea about building a community that's.
Speaker 5: Nice, but then that's when you start doing mandatory stuff
Speaker 5: that you don't really need to do.
Speaker 4: That That's where I have my problems.
Speaker 2: With And were they obsessed with the end of the
Speaker 2: world at all or were they just like, we're just meditating.
Speaker 4: I think they're just meditating.
Speaker 3: Yeah, cool, Okay, well that's good. At least it's better.
Speaker 6: Yeah, But I was.
Speaker 5: Also I was still like incredibly obsessed with conspiracies, thinking
Speaker 5: that the Illuminati is going to take over at any point,
Speaker 5: which kind of fed into think about the doomsday stuff.
Speaker 5: And I mean, well, I mean I'm where I need
Speaker 5: to be, in the middle of nowhere. I would use
Speaker 5: the money that I make and buy silver coins because
Speaker 5: always going to collapse.
Speaker 6: Sure, sure yeah.
Speaker 3: Classic.
Speaker 2: My very like mainstream comic boyfriend in Los Angeles when
Speaker 2: we lived together one time came home and was like,
Speaker 2: I have great news.
Speaker 6: I changed all of our money into coins. I was like, what,
Speaker 6: So it happens to everyone.
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of boys in high school
Speaker 3: talked about gold gold, having physical gold bars and why
Speaker 3: that was important. I don't know, whiley we.
Speaker 6: Were thirty years old and our money wasn't gold.
Speaker 3: Well, in LA, thirty years old is high school?
Speaker 8: So so true, What were you gonna say, Lola, I
Speaker 8: was just curious about, like about this group and then
Speaker 8: also maybe in general, but let's just start with this group.
Speaker 3: Like the meditations are mandatory, what else would you consider
Speaker 3: to be, you know, qualifying it as a cult versus
Speaker 3: just a community.
Speaker 5: It's it's it's interesting because this one is I feel
Speaker 5: like a lot of like like the leaders now died,
Speaker 5: so I think it's less so I think it's more
Speaker 5: about like when you agree to move into the community,
Speaker 5: you spend all that money to then be there and
Speaker 5: be part of it. I feel like then the power
Speaker 5: dynamics switches or that if you're not part of the
Speaker 5: board of members are on the good side of the leader.
Speaker 5: I feel like that's where the power dynamic kind of
Speaker 5: kind of changes that gives it. Maybe it's not as
Speaker 5: like that as other cults, but I feel like when
Speaker 5: that happens is that if there were to be a
Speaker 5: change of values or anything like that and you were
Speaker 5: to disagree with it, whether or not that disagreement would
Speaker 5: change to oh, we're going to push you out and
Speaker 5: all this investments that you have are are you're no
Speaker 5: longer going to be here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like an abusive relationship. They love bommeo and
Speaker 2: then suddenly you're kind of stuck.
Speaker 3: And the level it's there's a level of financial control.
Speaker 3: There's a level of sort of inherent control over over
Speaker 3: your life circumstances because you're living there, which I mean
Speaker 3: you could argue is the risk of moving in with
Speaker 3: anyone ever, But like, but obviously if you've given your life,
Speaker 3: you know, you're all your fin SYSTI the community that's
Speaker 3: more extreme.
Speaker 6: And they're controlling your food, Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what was the why why were you only allowed
Speaker 3: to eat in the temple?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I've so checked out that a lot of it
Speaker 7: was I guess it's like the idea is it's the
Speaker 7: communal aspect of eating together would be would be the
Speaker 7: reason why.
Speaker 5: But what we would eat is like we couldn't talk
Speaker 5: until leaders actually came in there and started talking, or
Speaker 5: we couldn't eat until the leaders started eating. And that's
Speaker 5: really the scene in Midsummer where they wait until they
Speaker 5: start eating.
Speaker 4: Was like, Oh my god, how did I lived?
Speaker 7: That?
Speaker 2: Would she would she go on long monologues about this leader?
Speaker 2: Would she would she do things like that?
Speaker 5: It would be more just doing the decrees, not the decrease,
Speaker 5: but the prayers in the sceny, so they are more
Speaker 5: like joyful those less like, so definitely more joy But
Speaker 5: I almost hated that more because the weird because you're
Speaker 5: playing into all like the preconceptions that you already think
Speaker 5: about the community would be like, oh this is this
Speaker 5: is actually it. So I didn't fit in and I felt.
Speaker 3: Weirder because you're like, why are we acting happy?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 6: Does just feel fake?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 4: I think so, at least for me, it was because
Speaker 4: I wasn't happy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you're like, I'm covered in demons? Excuse me? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And what was her name?
Speaker 4: Natasha? And I don't know her last.
Speaker 6: Name French last name? What was she like?
Speaker 3: Did she have an intense stare as well? Like what
Speaker 3: was her vibe?
Speaker 5: I think just more like wide eyed, not really as intense,
Speaker 5: but very much like she would always have people that
Speaker 5: would walk with her. That might have been an age thing,
Speaker 5: but it seemed still the the hierarchy change the power
Speaker 5: dynamic of how people would treat her, simply because she
Speaker 5: was the leader at the time, with something that I
Speaker 5: still felt weird.
Speaker 2: Was she like enlightened or something? According to her, or
Speaker 2: was she elderly and wise or.
Speaker 6: You know what gave her this authority.
Speaker 4: I have no idea. I know that's not the best
Speaker 4: answer to.
Speaker 2: It makes perfect sense, honestly, Yeah, it totally does.
Speaker 5: I almost think it mirrors how much I know, between
Speaker 5: how much I started being checked out by everything and
Speaker 5: then a part of me is like I thought about
Speaker 5: like doing like more like research into like the ideal
Speaker 5: society and really trying to understand it more. Then at
Speaker 5: the same time is I'm like, okay, am I just
Speaker 5: wanting to then just like cite a bunch of facts
Speaker 5: that that I've like not through.
Speaker 4: Like my personal experience. And it might be because.
Speaker 5: I live with them and there's that idea around them
Speaker 5: that there's still part of me that worries about, like
Speaker 5: with the age of the internet, like being responsible for
Speaker 5: like their community of like all sinking this negative attention
Speaker 5: that would negatively affect people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like that's a part of that.
Speaker 5: Also is like a guilt mechanism that has been instilled
Speaker 5: in me through these beliefs and and the other ones.
Speaker 5: By comparison, this one seems amazing compared to the one
Speaker 5: that would have the extreme beliefs where it's it's so
Speaker 5: much interesting to me to not want to speak badly
Speaker 5: about a particular group, even though it would just be
Speaker 5: talking and learning about it.
Speaker 4: And that's the one part where I'm really.
Speaker 5: Want to try to explore why I feel that way
Speaker 5: and how can I not feel that way.
Speaker 3: That's such an interesting contradiction that I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people who were in culture extreme groups face because
Speaker 3: but I think both things are true at the same time.
Speaker 3: It's like, one, you should be able to talk about
Speaker 3: this experience that you had and kind of talk about
Speaker 3: what the group is and you know, and shed light
Speaker 3: on what it's like to go through something like that.
Speaker 3: And also at the same time, people on TikTok are
Speaker 3: fucking crazy sometimes and like will if the wrong community
Speaker 3: like lasers in I should say online community lasers in
Speaker 3: on a group, then it can also have negative consequences
Speaker 3: for people. So it's the sort of constant balance, but
Speaker 3: you have to do you know. I think both are
Speaker 3: true at the same time, and it's an individual journey
Speaker 3: to figure out what's right for you.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: Also, it sounds like it was so much better that
Speaker 2: you and I feel this way about a few things
Speaker 2: in my life where it's like kind of Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 2: where you're like I, but it was so much better
Speaker 2: that I want to protect it because what I came
Speaker 2: from was so much worse. Yeah, where did y'all sleep
Speaker 2: in this community?
Speaker 5: There's just these like little small rooms and then I
Speaker 5: would be in one and my dad would be in
Speaker 5: the other. Hipperthon walls and other people would live in
Speaker 5: the area as well, But they would never talk to me,
Speaker 5: which a lot of them would actually either ignore me
Speaker 5: or just never talk to me.
Speaker 4: That was like one thing that really.
Speaker 5: Like if I tried to connect with them, it just
Speaker 5: couldn't happen if there was a language barrier. Or I
Speaker 5: think ultimately it's because my dad give them so much
Speaker 5: money they allowed me to be there, and I was
Speaker 5: just someone that they were not okay with me being there.
Speaker 5: But I was just there because they wanted my dad's money.
Speaker 5: That's how I felt.
Speaker 3: I think you mentioned something like this in your show,
Speaker 3: But was there a policy to not have children on
Speaker 3: the compound?
Speaker 4: Well, there's children there, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think it was more that I wasn't I didn't
Speaker 5: officially get like the okay from the community. Type of thing,
Speaker 5: or like I see were because I wasn't doing any
Speaker 5: of the are believing in any of the stuff that
Speaker 5: they believed in.
Speaker 3: Right, you're just tagging along, right, You're just like hi, guys,
Speaker 3: not speaking friends. You're like, sure, when did you leave
Speaker 3: that group? And was it you on your own or
Speaker 3: was it you Andrew dad?
Speaker 5: So I ended up going to a Ferny Academy, a
Speaker 5: private school where I'd have to wear.
Speaker 4: A uniform because one of the.
Speaker 5: German a German teacher lived on the call and taught
Speaker 5: there and they needed more kids in order to go
Speaker 5: up to grade twelve. So I, through a grant from
Speaker 5: the Canadian government, I've became one of the charity cases.
Speaker 4: To go to the school. This was a.
Speaker 5: Super advanced school where I had. I was already behind
Speaker 5: in my education and was very much more confused with that.
Speaker 5: But I met and became friends with someone where I
Speaker 5: just vaguely explained my past to the family and they
Speaker 5: allowed me to move in with them, and through that
Speaker 5: I would move into Sparwood, which would be like forty
Speaker 5: five kilometers away from Jeffrey and like a twenty minute
Speaker 5: drive from Ferni that's in the middle and that's where
Speaker 5: I live with them for a bit until they wanted
Speaker 5: custody of me, which just felt very weird kind of
Speaker 5: at the same time, though, it was grade twelve and
Speaker 5: people talk about going to university, and I didn't think
Speaker 5: about that one like the idea university. It's I legit
Speaker 5: only passed grade eleven English because I demolitioned a teacher's
Speaker 5: day at a forty percent I mean literally with.
Speaker 6: Their backyard deck physical labor.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my.
Speaker 4: God, and they only bumped it up to a fifty
Speaker 4: one raw.
Speaker 2: I talk about this sometimes on here as well as
Speaker 2: like I knew I was gonna graduate high school, but
Speaker 2: I did not have any plans for my future because
Speaker 2: the world was going to end, Like duh, what why
Speaker 2: would I be planning anything? And so that's been something
Speaker 2: that's been really hard for me as somebody who keeps
Speaker 2: living and waking up every morning and the world does
Speaker 2: not end it.
Speaker 6: So was there any of that going on?
Speaker 5: One hundred percent? Because the especially with still being in
Speaker 5: the conspiracies, I'm like that the world there's gonna be war,
Speaker 5: there's gonna be something like that, and so I and
Speaker 5: I was still what's the point of with diploma, Like
Speaker 5: what am I gonna? I also like didn't There's nothing
Speaker 5: that I wanted to do so it. I just thought
Speaker 5: the whole thing was stupid, even when like the university
Speaker 5: would uh left Bridge University visited us and I was
Speaker 5: like confrontational with the recruiter due to a point where
Speaker 5: I was removed from class because these people were actually
Speaker 5: like wanting to go to university.
Speaker 4: I'm calling it a scam.
Speaker 3: So right right, So you end up with this family
Speaker 3: and then they're like trying to get custod of you,
Speaker 3: and you're like this is weird, but I don't want
Speaker 3: to go to college. Like where how did it all
Speaker 3: shake out?
Speaker 5: So then I ended up moving back in with my dad,
Speaker 5: who didn't build the house on their land, and I
Speaker 5: moved back in. He charged me to rent, and at
Speaker 5: this time I was paying for my bills in my
Speaker 5: car and then driving the school and working at.
Speaker 4: A and w how old are you? I would have
Speaker 4: been like seventeen. Wow, okay, because.
Speaker 5: That's that's what That's what my my dad was. I
Speaker 5: was raised that way. If anything I could take away
Speaker 5: from my dad is he really did instill a work
Speaker 5: ethic in me that will probably be to the detriment
Speaker 5: if in terms of like I always work in a
Speaker 5: hundred where then I get mad at people if they're
Speaker 5: not working at like seventy at work.
Speaker 4: Guys, I'm working this hard, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5: But it's also that's flowed into like the promotion of
Speaker 5: my show, where I put up like thousands of thousands
Speaker 5: of flyers on poles all across LA which also gave
Speaker 5: me a new found respect and love for the city
Speaker 5: that I didn't have because now I'm finally walking around too.
Speaker 4: If I'm in I guess if I'm in nice.
Speaker 5: Neighborhoods, I walk around Hollywood Boulevard be like, I love
Speaker 5: this place.
Speaker 2: But you're like Los Angeles the New Canada.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I gotta say, I feel like you've been promoting
Speaker 3: it really well because it took me like what's the
Speaker 3: number they so you need to be exposed to something.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's bullshit, but I feel like people will say
Speaker 3: that you need to be exposed to something like seven
Speaker 3: times before you remember it or something. And I've been
Speaker 3: exposed to the title of your show like numerous times
Speaker 3: at this point, and it finally sunk in and I
Speaker 3: was like, oh, I got to reach out to that guy,
Speaker 3: So you're doing great. So once you were finally out
Speaker 3: then so I take it from that point on you
Speaker 3: kind of just found a place eventually and started living
Speaker 3: on your own and you were like, no more colds.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah. At that point I just kind of was jumping
Speaker 5: restaurant at the restaurant and became like a drunk punk essentially,
Speaker 5: just drinking, sleeping in, smoking weed, drinking coffee. And then
Speaker 5: the other real rebellious face was that was afterwards. I
Speaker 5: didn't really drink it all as when I was growing
Speaker 5: up or go to parties anything like that. It was
Speaker 5: afterwards is where I rejected all those values, right, so
Speaker 5: I started looking upon it. And that's of course, that's
Speaker 5: where my girlfriend and that's where the idea of twin
Speaker 5: Flames stuck with me, was the idea that when I meet.
Speaker 4: Someone, this is going to be the one. And it wasn't.
Speaker 4: But that's still the thing that stuck with me the longest.
Speaker 6: That's okay, you still have two more twin Flames to go.
Speaker 3: Yes, Like your dad, first of all, like, how long
Speaker 3: did it take you to process that you had been
Speaker 3: in three different cults.
Speaker 4: A long time?
Speaker 5: I like brought up I would like sometimes when I
Speaker 5: was i'd be drunk, I would be like, hey, guys,
Speaker 5: I ever played this like decrease for you guys, And
Speaker 5: I played them and be like, all right, this is awful.
Speaker 4: So I don't think I ever really processed it.
Speaker 5: And I brought it up a little bit here and there,
Speaker 5: and then when I quit my job to do stand
Speaker 5: up comedy. I still don't think I quite processed it,
Speaker 5: almost until over a year ago when I started writing
Speaker 5: about it and then just bringing up I think bringing
Speaker 5: up my upbringing to people that weren't raised this way
Speaker 5: for people to be like, you're right, that is not
Speaker 5: a normal thing that I didn't even think about was
Speaker 5: not normal. Like the idea of a sword was like
Speaker 5: I still like I thought that maybe would be other
Speaker 5: religions kind of do that.
Speaker 4: Turns out they don't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, through the process of doing the show is like,
Speaker 3: this is how you're kind of like digesting these experiences.
Speaker 2: And that was one of the things I was going
Speaker 2: to say, which I think is just so important for
Speaker 2: everybody to hear and so cool. Whether you've been in
Speaker 2: a cult or a high control group or not, is
Speaker 2: that you said that when you started doing the show
Speaker 2: and doing stand up and like holding the microphone, you
Speaker 2: stopped sucking your thumb, which is so indicative of kind
Speaker 2: of growth, and ye, very cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah it is I and in my show.
Speaker 5: For me, it's such a personal, huge accomplishment that the
Speaker 5: fact that the crowd never responds to it is that
Speaker 5: I've changed the wording.
Speaker 4: I've changed how it is, I changed inflections.
Speaker 5: It is always maybe one person collapsed, but I feel
Speaker 5: like it's just such a one is. People have come
Speaker 5: up to me after shows to be like, I suck
Speaker 5: my thumb until like, like way old too. I feel
Speaker 5: like because it's something that's not talked about and if
Speaker 5: you google it, I mean, there's not really a great
Speaker 5: community that is propelling it as a normal behavior.
Speaker 6: Right, I can imagine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really was. What happened.
Speaker 5: And this is very interesting is when my car broke
Speaker 5: down in Vegas, I ended up back in Santa Barbara,
Speaker 5: where I was still My mom at this point was
Speaker 5: losing her memory but still did the decrease. My younger
Speaker 5: sister very much so had the same kind of aggressive,
Speaker 5: loud yelling tendencies.
Speaker 4: As my mom.
Speaker 5: So I was just in the tent in the backyard
Speaker 5: and then I'm like, I got a move, So I
Speaker 5: tried to get a flight from la to Montreal, but
Speaker 5: it turns out I didn't have the right I had
Speaker 5: a passport card, but not a passport, so it's back
Speaker 5: to Montana.
Speaker 4: So then I rearranged everything.
Speaker 5: I actually ended up back in Montreal, where I decided
Speaker 5: to live there because it's very, very very cheap. And
Speaker 5: then I'm there for about a month or two and
Speaker 5: my older sister calls me letting me know that my
Speaker 5: younger sister kids have been taken away by the Foster family,
Speaker 5: and I take this out of the show. And the
Speaker 5: guy who ended up assaulting me later on gave his
Speaker 5: medication to the kids, and there's it is very much
Speaker 5: like to me is I was like, this is nice,
Speaker 5: not harsh from like Eddie. Kids growing up in our environment,
Speaker 5: we should not be having kids like for me at
Speaker 5: least now the west lying stops here. I'm not not
Speaker 5: I mean, not even kids. And then they ended up
Speaker 5: with like a rich Santa Barbara family. I'm like, they
Speaker 5: hit the jackpot here. This is fantastic. Their babies they
Speaker 5: won't remember it and they're vie. So I'm like, okay,
Speaker 5: this is great, But then my sister then keeps having
Speaker 5: kids with the same guy, so I feel like she
Speaker 5: remembers the past so much differently than us. She's still
Speaker 5: in and does her decrees of the cult.
Speaker 3: Oh, she's still in. Yes, and we go with active
Speaker 3: member Yes.
Speaker 5: And would go with my mom to Mount Shasta where
Speaker 5: the Heart Center would do their retreats. So she stayed
Speaker 5: very close with my mom. And I believe that my
Speaker 5: mom and dad should have never split and hated my
Speaker 5: step mom because she thought they broke them up, and
Speaker 5: I this is just my personal belief. Is I feel like,
Speaker 5: is she's recreated our childhood, especially with what happened to
Speaker 5: her kids getting taken away.
Speaker 4: It's the same exact.
Speaker 3: Holy shit, yeash do you You might not know the
Speaker 3: answer to this, but I'm just curious, like if you
Speaker 3: have any sense of like when your mom or your
Speaker 3: sister are like engaging in harmful behavior or having you know,
Speaker 3: mental uh breaks or whatever it is, Like does the
Speaker 3: church do they go to the church, Does the church know,
Speaker 3: Like is there any response from any leadership, like how
Speaker 3: is that handled?
Speaker 6: Or do you not really know?
Speaker 5: I don't think they've ever helped us once and in
Speaker 5: terms of it, and it always like was a sense
Speaker 5: of my anger is like if we spent so much
Speaker 5: time to cream and we gave so much money, and
Speaker 5: especially the Heart Center would be like if you if
Speaker 5: you donate twenty dollars a day, you're gonna get twenty
Speaker 5: ex karma points, you're gonna get good karma back. And
Speaker 5: all this bad stuff would constantly happened to us. And
Speaker 5: then with the decline of my mom's memory, was just
Speaker 5: so much of like there's no returns in any of
Speaker 5: these beliefs. And I think that if you were to
Speaker 5: bring it up to the leaders, they would just be like,
Speaker 5: you got to cree more, or that's God's path. There's
Speaker 5: all that kind of just examples other than actually opening
Speaker 5: the responsibility that you have to the followers.
Speaker 6: Right, Oh, that's so sad.
Speaker 3: It's so sad to me when like this idea that
Speaker 3: so many groups have where like, if something bad happens
Speaker 3: to you, it's because you're not doing enough of whatever
Speaker 3: bullshit silly ritual or belief they've decided is the answer
Speaker 3: to all things.
Speaker 2: You're not good enough, it's just it's your fall. Badness
Speaker 2: is just re yeah, re traumatizing. It's so unfair.
Speaker 3: When you have a community, when you have a church,
Speaker 3: like you know, not that they should be handling serious issues,
Speaker 3: but at least like advising you to get professional help,
Speaker 3: you know, say, hey, maybe see a counselor, like any
Speaker 3: anything taking responsibilities, anyone related to us, not a church counselor,
Speaker 3: like an actual one. Yeah, that's so sad, and I'm
Speaker 3: so sorry that your that you experienced this and that
Speaker 3: your family didn't get the help that you know, you
Speaker 3: guys really needed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's so cool that you are so connected
Speaker 2: to telling your story that it unwound a very deep
Speaker 2: habit of sucking your thumb.
Speaker 6: I don't know. That just moved me.
Speaker 2: I think that's so cool. Yeah, people can find the
Speaker 2: same thing in their own life. Maybe you know, so
Speaker 2: you experienced an injury at the hands of your sister's
Speaker 2: ex partner.
Speaker 6: What did that look like?
Speaker 9: Essentially what happened is is that that the ex boyfriend
Speaker 9: that I brought up with my younger sister, I was
Speaker 9: kind of being the responsible.
Speaker 4: I tried to not be part.
Speaker 5: Of the family drama that was happening at all, but
Speaker 5: it was when the lives of other people were being impacted.
Speaker 5: I was like, Okay, I gotta at least do something here.
Speaker 5: So I was kind of the one that would call
Speaker 5: the cops and talk to the police, and so I
Speaker 5: became kind of the guy in between my younger sister
Speaker 5: and the boyfriend.
Speaker 4: Where then the one time.
Speaker 5: He so he ended up jumping me and and knocked
Speaker 5: me out and then put me in a choke hold
Speaker 5: and it wherever someone called the cops and stopped it.
Speaker 5: But I so I didn't. I didn't see anything.
Speaker 4: So it was just dark.
Speaker 5: But the joke that you kind of like brought up
Speaker 5: was like to me, is like it would be I
Speaker 5: would rather actually just die and there be nothing then
Speaker 5: to then relive the hell that would be decreeing all
Speaker 5: the time, that would be this like other realm where
Speaker 5: and it sucks now because now I have like a
Speaker 5: scar in my eye, I have all this like the
Speaker 5: the the justice system did nothing. He was just the
Speaker 5: only reason why he was in jail for any period was.
Speaker 4: Because of COVID.
Speaker 5: Then the judge released him and I was in Canada
Speaker 5: during the pandemic and doing Zoom court where the prosecutors
Speaker 5: were like, you're right, I know this. It sucks to
Speaker 5: bring up all this again, but you've got to do
Speaker 5: a victim impact statement to the judge and this will
Speaker 5: like move whether or not he goes to jail and
Speaker 5: court if anyone actually deals with the court system in America,
Speaker 5: it's so slow and it all it does is the
Speaker 5: amount of times I had the log in the zoom,
Speaker 5: only not the talk and then go back in our
Speaker 5: day was just a victim. I'm reliving it every single time,
Speaker 5: right And then the one time on zoom when I
Speaker 5: was supposed to talk, he's like, Okay, we're gonna do
Speaker 5: it another day, and he's like, I listened to what
Speaker 5: the lawyer had to say, and definitely the victims statement
Speaker 5: is going to make an impact. But right now I'm
Speaker 5: leaning on him being released into a halfway home. And
Speaker 5: I was like, so you just you just basically said
Speaker 5: that whatever I'm saying is not gonna You're already leaning
Speaker 5: a certain way. And a lot of that is like
Speaker 5: I can only imagine other people that are victims of assault.
Speaker 5: At least in California I had there's at least a
Speaker 5: little bit of an institution that will help with that.
Speaker 4: With with survivors.
Speaker 5: But two, I felt minimized where the prosecution is like,
Speaker 5: you got it, write this statement and then it made
Speaker 5: no sway on the judge and he was released and
Speaker 5: came back and then try to break it to the
Speaker 5: house immediately after.
Speaker 6: Oh my god.
Speaker 5: So it's really like it when it I come to
Speaker 5: like wanting to talk about things within my show and
Speaker 5: use comedy is I hope that and I always want
Speaker 5: my comedy to like turn into a thing where people
Speaker 5: that have had similar experiences, whether it be religion, are
Speaker 5: victim experiences. Is that they probably had the same similar
Speaker 5: things happen with the with the not feeling justice in
Speaker 5: the American system, and to one thing, feel that you
Speaker 5: can talk about it and not have that past own you,
Speaker 5: but also turn it around and put the joke on
Speaker 5: them and laugh at it.
Speaker 4: That can be extremely powerful.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: I'm curious, and someone in the audience asked you this
Speaker 3: after your show was over that night, but I want
Speaker 3: to get your take on it here now on this podcast.
Speaker 3: Have experienced like all of these different types of extreme belief,
Speaker 3: even even politically, Like what do you see as some
Speaker 3: let's say warning signs to look out for that it
Speaker 3: might indicate that you are engaging in extreme belief. Or
Speaker 3: cultic thinking, or a harmful group.
Speaker 5: I would say that the early signs is almost you'll
Speaker 5: see a change of the vocabulary of So let's say
Speaker 5: that you go somewhere and instead of soulmates as twin planes,
Speaker 5: when they're creating their own sort of language, it's it's
Speaker 5: kind of the first step I feel like is that
Speaker 5: because you're making it feel like you're in a community.
Speaker 4: But ultimately, I think I feel.
Speaker 5: Like the warning signs are is that if the values
Speaker 5: that the community is based on matter less than what
Speaker 5: the leader says, then that's a warning sign. And if
Speaker 5: it's you're constantly losing agency in or decisions you can
Speaker 5: make in your individual like liberties, that's.
Speaker 4: A sign that you're going on the wrong route.
Speaker 5: Because if it's just a community and you still can
Speaker 5: make all your decisions, then it's fine. But if you're
Speaker 5: losing agency, that would be the first warning sign that
Speaker 5: you're not in an actual community but a cult.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Yes, I love that, And I love what you said
Speaker 3: about the values, because so many of these groups do
Speaker 3: purport to have really positive values but then tell you
Speaker 3: not to examine whether the current practices are actually aligned
Speaker 3: with those values.
Speaker 6: I mean, you see you have to protect the leader.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you see this so much in so
Speaker 3: many evangelical fundamentalists, evangelical groups right now who purport to
Speaker 3: be Christian, but then when you actually look at the
Speaker 3: behavior of the leaders, that's they're actually very much not
Speaker 3: aligned with the values that they say that they have.
Speaker 3: And that's true of many, many different kinds of groups,
Speaker 3: not just Christian groups. But I love that, and it
Speaker 3: sounds like maybe it would be important to examine to
Speaker 3: allow yourself to examine the question as like a first
Speaker 3: step if you're wondering, right like, what are the values?
Speaker 3: Is it aligned? Do I feel like I'm allowed to
Speaker 3: ask that question? I think right now? You know, there's
Speaker 3: just so much oh this time and culture is insane,
Speaker 3: there's so much extreme thinking, and it's more important now
Speaker 3: than ever to be to like be examining our beliefs
Speaker 3: and be examining our groups. And yeah, I appreciate your
Speaker 3: perspective on that. And where can people find you and
Speaker 3: where can they see your show?
Speaker 4: Follow me on Instagram?
Speaker 5: Okay, oh it's your Riya Jokes is my handle, but
Speaker 5: really you can find all the information on my website
Speaker 5: Yah Westman dot com and basically have a residency of
Speaker 5: shows at the lyric hyperiod, with the next one being Sunday, February.
Speaker 6: Twenty third in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5: In Los Angeles, And of course you can get tickets
Speaker 5: through my show through through my website, but essentially, if
Speaker 5: if you're someone who has gone through like these similar
Speaker 5: experiences are, it would be like it'd be harder for
Speaker 5: you to get it a ticket definitely just use my
Speaker 5: website and send me a message and I can gladly
Speaker 5: comp a ticket for any of the upcoming shows.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 2: You're so nice and the show is fantastic. I can't
Speaker 2: wait for everybody to see it. And thank you so
Speaker 2: much for giving us your time and telling the story.
Speaker 2: And the takeaway is really that really summed it up
Speaker 2: for me, Like I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Thank you ver having me on the podcast. It's been great.
Speaker 3: Thank you to you Riah for being on. Megan. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know you had some some takeaways from this, I
Speaker 3: want to hear about those well.
Speaker 2: I think one of my biggest takeaways was the fact
Speaker 2: that Rya stop sucking his thumb after he started doing
Speaker 2: stand up to me really was it stood out to
Speaker 2: me as something that's like that was a really scary
Speaker 2: step for him, something he definitely was not brought up
Speaker 2: like to do, but it solved something really deep and
Speaker 2: unresolved with enhim And just how cults and high control
Speaker 2: groups can offer this blanket, prescriptive umbrella for everyone and
Speaker 2: it's actually like you have to go out into the
Speaker 2: world and start experiencing it and find what actually matters
Speaker 2: to you to really get to the heart of the
Speaker 2: issues that you have.
Speaker 3: Like instead of saying the key to happiness and fulfillment
Speaker 3: is this amount of meditations or this amount of demon
Speaker 3: prayers a day, it's like, no, for Euriah, the thing
Speaker 3: that his you know, that he that gave him purpose
Speaker 3: and that gave him meaning was stand up comedy, which
Speaker 3: is not gonna be the same no for some other
Speaker 3: person in that group.
Speaker 2: Right, And so it just brings us back to that
Speaker 2: fact that people leaving high control groups are who want
Speaker 2: to or you know, at people in abusive relationships or whatever,
Speaker 2: anyone really like just start following the threads of things
Speaker 2: that interest you and see where it leads you, because
Speaker 2: that's all we really have in life is like hobbies.
Speaker 3: No, we can find purpose, things that give us meaning,
Speaker 3: or sometimes the hobbies can be careers Megan, Yes, yes, yes, yes, of.
Speaker 6: Course, of course that's what I mean, like.
Speaker 3: Something to do, just some shit to do.
Speaker 6: Just something that like makes you feel meaning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. And I think in your Eyah's case, like
Speaker 3: we've talked a lot about how sharing your story with
Speaker 3: people is can be can be the ultimate you know,
Speaker 3: once you're ready, because not it's not something that necessarily
Speaker 3: should be rushed, but once you're ready can be the
Speaker 3: ultimate healing and processing tool because you are using the
Speaker 3: negative and often traumatic experiences that you've had to you know,
Speaker 3: in his case, make people laugh. In other cases, you know,
Speaker 3: help others shed light on, you know, harms that have
Speaker 3: been done, like you can transform those experiences into good
Speaker 3: in addition to finding some other identity outside of the group.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's certainly people that I know who have
Speaker 2: like taken stand up and it's become a cult to them.
Speaker 2: You know, there's like there's so many you always just
Speaker 2: have divine balance and exactly, but yeah, passion, and it
Speaker 2: was just such a cool thing to like have this
Speaker 2: reflex that you can't get rid of. I can't stop
Speaker 2: sucking my thumb And then it just goes away on
Speaker 2: its own when you start expressing yourself.
Speaker 6: It's cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, it is. It is definitely cool. Everybody
Speaker 3: should go see his show if you're in La. Yes,
Speaker 3: three Colts talk into a Bar.
Speaker 2: Please do, and as always, please rate us five stars
Speaker 2: and give us a review.
Speaker 6: Yay, buy some March.
Speaker 3: Yeah, bit y slash, trust me merch.
Speaker 2: And remember to follow your gut, watch out for rad flax.
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me.
Speaker 5: Bye, thank you.
Speaker 3: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Speaker 3: Steve Delemator.
Speaker 6: With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 3: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Speaker 2: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
Speaker 2: trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Speaker 2: Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word