Speaker 1: You're listening to In the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horchak.
Speaker 2: Hey, guys, and welcome back to In the Vets Office.
Speaker 2: I am your host, doctor Josie, and this week we
Speaker 2: are gonna switch things up just a little bit. Usually
Speaker 2: we like to keep this podcast light, informative, but light,
Speaker 2: and this week we're gonna talk about a little bit
Speaker 2: heavier of subjects such as dealing with your senior pets,
Speaker 2: end of life, quality of life, euthanasia, and the grief
Speaker 2: that comes after euthanasia. I wanted to create this intro
Speaker 2: as a trigger warning if you're not in the right
Speaker 2: headspace to talk about or listen to these subjects, that
Speaker 2: is completely understandable, and just wanted to make you aware
Speaker 2: that the episode will be focused around them. I really
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about these subjects because whether you have
Speaker 2: a pet, or your pet is a senior, or you've
Speaker 2: had to euthanize an animal before, it's inevitable as a
Speaker 2: pet owner that we at some point will have to
Speaker 2: deal with these and it's nice to know that you're
Speaker 2: not alone, there are resources out there for you, and
Speaker 2: just a little bit of comfort in how to deal
Speaker 2: with it going forward. We're gonna hold off on doing
Speaker 2: Paw and Order and Case of the Week and listener
Speaker 2: question and answers. I feel like this is a pretty
Speaker 2: heavy subject and so doing those segments feels a little
Speaker 2: trivial to me, So we'll just focus on the bread
Speaker 2: and butter and dive right into our interview. So, without
Speaker 2: further ado, here we go. All right, Today, we have
Speaker 2: doctor Mary Gardner joining us in the BETS office. She's
Speaker 2: a veterinarian, an author, a public speaker, and the co
Speaker 2: founder of Lap of Love, which, for those of you
Speaker 2: not familiar with Lap of Love, it's a service that
Speaker 2: provides in home pet euthanasia, veterinary hospice, and pet loss
Speaker 2: coport services. Doctor Mary prides herself in making the lives
Speaker 2: of our older pets and the people who love them better,
Speaker 2: so I figured she was the perfect guest to have
Speaker 2: today to discuss the end of life with our pets.
Speaker 2: Welcome doctor Mary, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: How are you.
Speaker 2: I'm doing great. I'm so happy to have you on today.
Speaker 2: I was prior to our interview giving our listeners a
Speaker 2: little bit of a heads up that these are some
Speaker 2: heavier topics to discuss, but important ones and everybody as
Speaker 2: a pet owner at some point will we'll be dealing
Speaker 2: with them. So I think it's really important that we
Speaker 2: are able to talk openly about it, right.
Speaker 1: I know we're such a death adverse society in general,
Speaker 1: even in human death right and so it's it's not
Speaker 1: a topic that people want to talk about, but yet
Speaker 1: they need to talk about it, and then they usually
Speaker 1: feel better after talking about it, so they just at
Speaker 1: least know their options. Do we know what to expect
Speaker 1: and then can sit back and still enjoy life.
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. And I know I mentioned I just mentioned
Speaker 2: lap of Love and that you were a co founder
Speaker 2: and before we dive into all the things, I actually
Speaker 2: used Lap of Love for one of my dogs previously,
Speaker 2: and I just want to let you know it was
Speaker 2: such a great experience. And I know at home usin
Speaker 2: Asia is not for everyone, but I think it's a
Speaker 2: great option to have. And I can't say how in
Speaker 2: a terrible situation, how great of an experience I had.
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that it is. Yeah, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's a personal choice of where and who's around and
Speaker 1: things like that, and you know, I do feel that
Speaker 1: they're most comfortable in their home and we don't have to,
Speaker 1: you know, do a final ride in the car or
Speaker 1: anything like that. But also we're a little bit more
Speaker 1: comfortable in the home and if we want to, you know,
Speaker 1: grieve in our own way, we can without having to
Speaker 1: worry about who's seeing us or anything like that. So,
Speaker 1: but like you said, not not everybody wants that, and
Speaker 1: not everybody can have that because sometimes we're at the
Speaker 1: emergency clinic or something like that and it's it's unfortunate.
Speaker 1: So we're very blessed to have such a rewarding career
Speaker 1: and or niche in the veterinary space, and we love
Speaker 1: making that last final moment just a bit better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. One thing I wanted to talk about
Speaker 2: is I think I'm sure, I'm sure you'll relate to
Speaker 2: this that as veterinarians, a lot of times people think
Speaker 2: we are playing with kittens and puppies and running around
Speaker 2: it's rainbows and butterflies, But a huge portion of our
Speaker 2: job is taking care of senior patients and ensuring that
Speaker 2: they're healthy overall and they're comfortable, and so I think
Speaker 2: a really a big part of our job. And I'll
Speaker 2: be interested to hear you expand on it is focusing
Speaker 2: on our senior pets and then also recognizing that age
Speaker 2: is not necessarily a disease, although it can certainly come
Speaker 2: with its challenges.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always say age isn't a disease, but it
Speaker 1: does bring disease, and our bodies do start to age
Speaker 1: and have you know, it may not be a failure
Speaker 1: of an organ or something like that, but we don't
Speaker 1: have the same reparative processes. We don't have the same
Speaker 1: energy level, the ability to fight off infections, and so
Speaker 1: it's just it's just a fact of life, even for
Speaker 1: our humans. But did you know that forty four percent
Speaker 1: of pets, our senior are senior or more so. I
Speaker 1: love double digits, so the more double digits they have,
Speaker 1: the better, like a teenager if you will. But forty
Speaker 1: four percent are over seven years old. And that's massive,
Speaker 1: And so to your point, everybody thinks we're playing with
Speaker 1: puppies or kittens, but that's that's actually only about twelve
Speaker 1: percent of the population as a puppi er kitten because
Speaker 1: eventually obviously they go to two, three, four years old,
Speaker 1: but the majority is actually.
Speaker 2: Seniors, right, And I think that a really important part
Speaker 2: for owners listening is bringing your pets in once they
Speaker 2: hit senior hood. I think bringing them in twice year
Speaker 2: is really important, just that way we can lay our
Speaker 2: hands on them or running lab work on an annual basis,
Speaker 2: we can we can see how they're doing. We have
Speaker 2: a good baseline, and then if some thing does come up,
Speaker 2: we can be on top of it. And focusing on
Speaker 2: that preventative care I think can make a huge difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I was just this morning, I
Speaker 1: was somewhere and this gentleman says, oh, I have a
Speaker 1: twelve year old boxer, And this was just I wasn't
Speaker 1: in a clinic, right, this is just random, and and
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you know, her hips are really bad,
Speaker 1: and so it's a very common thing all here as well.
Speaker 1: She's just she's getting old and what are we going
Speaker 1: to do? And I'm like, and I wanted to, of
Speaker 1: course go into my whole talk and conversation, but I
Speaker 1: didn't have time. So what really makes me sad? And
Speaker 1: so many people think that doing euthanasias is what makes
Speaker 1: me sad. I do get sad, but that's not what
Speaker 1: makes me sad is But what does is that so
Speaker 1: many older pets have not been to their doctor. And
Speaker 1: it is about forty nine percent of dogs and cats
Speaker 1: are not seen by their veterinarian the last year life.
Speaker 1: So let's just round that up to fifty percent because
Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to talk. Half the pets that
Speaker 1: we euthanize in the United States have not been to
Speaker 1: their doctor the year before they pass, and that's where
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff happens where we can help manage,
Speaker 1: and whether it's pain relief or anxiety relief or just
Speaker 1: products and setting, you know, setting up their house. This
Speaker 1: gentleman with this boxer, he's like, oh, she just you know,
Speaker 1: she can't get a grip on the floor. She skates
Speaker 1: all over and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so
Speaker 1: easy to fix. And he just doesn't know. So I
Speaker 1: would love twice a year's ideal. We got to get
Speaker 1: him in yere, they're not even coming in at all,
Speaker 1: So how do we get them in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's like reframing our mindset as owners,
Speaker 2: where oh, they're just old. Isn't really the mindset that
Speaker 2: we want to have because there are so many things
Speaker 2: that we can be doing to make their life better.
Speaker 1: Correct, you know, it's interesting, like do we say that
Speaker 1: about ourselves when we're when we're going to be sixty
Speaker 1: seventies right, like and some that hurts or we can't
Speaker 1: see as well? Are we just going to say I'm
Speaker 1: just old? So I'm not going to go like we don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think we say that to ourselves. And I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: I'm in my I'm in my early fifties, and I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a doctor's appointment on my calendar all
Speaker 1: the time, Like there's just I have to go to
Speaker 1: the dermatologists tomorrow, and you know, my knees are hurting,
Speaker 1: so there's I feel like I'm always somewhere in a
Speaker 1: doctor's office. But we don't say that in our to ourselves.
Speaker 1: So why would we say the same thing for our pets?
Speaker 2: Right? And I think a huge portion of it is
Speaker 2: they can't talk, so we really have to advocate for them.
Speaker 2: And even if you think your pet is perfectly healthy,
Speaker 2: they still need to go in for their checkup because
Speaker 2: we can. We are trained as terinarians to see these
Speaker 2: issues and help make your life and their life better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know a lot of people will say, oh,
Speaker 1: pets hide the hide their pain, so we don't see it,
Speaker 1: but I kind of think they just don't complain. I agree,
Speaker 1: like we actually and also people have goggles on it
Speaker 1: they can't see things. And I'm sorry. If your pet
Speaker 1: is slowing down, that's a sign of pain probably right,
Speaker 1: So they actually are showing you. We just don't know
Speaker 1: how to notice it. Oh, you know what, my kitty cat,
Speaker 1: she's not grooming herself anymore. She's just getting old. No,
Speaker 1: she hurts, therefore she can't groom herself. Or maybe she's
Speaker 1: got oral ulcers and she can't say anything, and what
Speaker 1: is she going to do? Complaint? Like, they don't complain,
Speaker 1: So they actually aren't hiding signs of they're showing you.
Speaker 1: You're just looking for a like a complaint, which they
Speaker 1: don't do, right. I mean, now with that being said,
Speaker 1: they meant so. In acute injury, you'll hear them complain
Speaker 1: because they howl and cry and all that stuff. But
Speaker 1: chronic long term illness like usually they just kind of
Speaker 1: suck it up. But it doesn't mean they should.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing that I've had a lot of owners
Speaker 2: and that i've dealt with in practice and a lot
Speaker 2: of listeners ask me about, is your pet gets diagnosed
Speaker 2: with terminal illness will say cancer, bone cancer, for example,
Speaker 2: and people are really torn between, Okay, do I go
Speaker 2: this much as I can with pursuing treatment versus doing
Speaker 2: palliative care, which palliative for those listening at home, just
Speaker 2: means keeping them comfortable until the end of life. I
Speaker 2: just I see people struggle with that so often, and
Speaker 2: I think that's a huge part of our job, is
Speaker 2: helping them guide them to their decision. That's their family,
Speaker 2: which may not be the same for everyone totally.
Speaker 1: I mean, you said it perfectly, and because neither is
Speaker 1: right or wrong, right, what I should say is neither
Speaker 1: is wrong. And if a family wants to in your example,
Speaker 1: do you know if they can do radio tactic things
Speaker 1: or amputation and then you know, some other medications and
Speaker 1: get another year from their pet and they can manage
Speaker 1: them financially, physically, emotionally and time wise, and they can't,
Speaker 1: then that's fine. But if they also have all those
Speaker 1: things they have the time they but still don't want to,
Speaker 1: that's all so fine, And but what we but but
Speaker 1: I think the rules should be they should not be suffering.
Speaker 1: So I don't I and that and that's not just
Speaker 1: end of life diseases. There could be a disease. You know,
Speaker 1: this is a harder thing is you've got a younger,
Speaker 1: you know, younger cat that's got diabetes, and some people
Speaker 1: just cannot manage that disease the treatment, and so what
Speaker 1: do we what do we do? So we may not
Speaker 1: be doing anything until that disease is taken, you know,
Speaker 1: to a point where then the pet is suffering, and
Speaker 1: there then we're gonna have to intervene. But and that's
Speaker 1: I think where you and I as veterinarians kind of
Speaker 1: get a little bit sad because we know that it's
Speaker 1: a it's a treatment that's not so difficult. But when
Speaker 1: we're talking about older you know, nearing the end or
Speaker 1: a few years out, let's say, treatment becomes a little
Speaker 1: subjective and what would you do? And even myself, I've
Speaker 1: I've done some things for my own pets, and other
Speaker 1: veterinarians are like, you did radiation, Like she's a twelve
Speaker 1: year old dog, And I'm like, well she got two
Speaker 1: more years, she got six more months. I don't care
Speaker 1: as long as as long as she's okay going to
Speaker 1: getting treatment and the treatment doesn't decrease her quality of life.
Speaker 1: Then I'm then I'm going to do that, but it's
Speaker 1: also okay if I didn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you said a really important thing
Speaker 2: is as long as she meaning your dog, is okay
Speaker 2: with it too, because it's very dependent on the patient.
Speaker 2: If I have a dog that's like would it hates
Speaker 2: other people, hates going to the vet for him, it
Speaker 2: would be horrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Pet's personality is a massive part of my
Speaker 1: evaluation of quality of life. And like I have my
Speaker 1: current dogs, he's got separation anxiety, and he's highly reactive,
Speaker 1: and so he is just he is such a blessing
Speaker 1: to me because he has taught me so much about
Speaker 1: behavioral issues and and and he's not an aggressive dog
Speaker 1: to peace people or really as long as he's not
Speaker 1: around other dogs or cats, he's fine. But he's just
Speaker 1: so anxious. There's no way I could bring him for
Speaker 1: chemotherapy or rehab or any of those things because he
Speaker 1: would just be not a good patient and he wouldn't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. So so for him, he's got the same
Speaker 1: mama as my other dog that FMO, he wouldn't get
Speaker 1: it because he's it's not good for him, And that's okay. Right.
Speaker 2: I think a really big take home message I want
Speaker 2: listeners to hear is whether you pursue treatment or you don't.
Speaker 2: I think, no matter what, we are prone to being like, ah,
Speaker 2: did I do the right thing? I'm questioning myself. I'm
Speaker 2: feeling this level of guilt and there is no wrong.
Speaker 2: Like you said, there's no wrong. And either way that
Speaker 2: you go, it's really you have to look at it
Speaker 2: from a very holistic approach with yourself and your pet
Speaker 2: and whatever decision you make that's best for your family.
Speaker 2: It will never feel one hundred percent right. But I
Speaker 2: certainly I wish I could take away the guilt that
Speaker 2: so many owners feel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I think? You know you said
Speaker 1: if they don't want to do treatment. I think what
Speaker 1: we should think about is that howly to care is
Speaker 1: a treatment, right, So we are doing the treatment, we're
Speaker 1: just doing a different one because there's there's many different
Speaker 1: ways to treat something, and and sometimes we're doing things
Speaker 1: for curative reasons, and some things we're just doing things
Speaker 1: for prolonging life as long as it's good quality. And
Speaker 1: there's also treatment is just pain management and quality life
Speaker 1: assessment that's still a treatment option. So and I just
Speaker 1: think it's but back to my point, I made whatever
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes ago. We got to make sure
Speaker 1: that their pain and anxiety is being managed. And so
Speaker 1: it's not okay just to say, well, he's just getting
Speaker 1: old exactly. That's not okay because because old age does
Speaker 1: bring disease.
Speaker 2: Right, and so we want to stay on top of it.
Speaker 2: The Great Dane that I euthanized through Lap of Love,
Speaker 2: she had osteosarcoma, which is bone cancer, and she would
Speaker 2: not have been a good candidate for amputation just being
Speaker 2: such a big dog. It would have been I think,
Speaker 2: pretty difficult for her to get around, and so we
Speaker 2: chose to go the palliative care route. We kept her
Speaker 2: at home, We got a really great six months with
Speaker 2: her and kept her on pain medications. She was getting
Speaker 2: around just fine. And so so yeah, as doctor Mary said,
Speaker 2: palliative care is a treatment option. It may just look
Speaker 2: a little bit different than what we had in our head.
Speaker 2: But I think I saw lot some really great time
Speaker 2: with her and was able to keep her comfortable and
Speaker 2: it was I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I think that's the thing is everything,
Speaker 1: Once we decide on palliative care, just kind of put
Speaker 1: the guilt aside and just enjoy and do bucket lists,
Speaker 1: get a photo shoot, just be present. I always prescribed
Speaker 1: thirty minute twice a day of love and that's it.
Speaker 1: Just love on your pet, because that is a part
Speaker 1: of the process. If you were to lose a friend
Speaker 1: or a family memory, you'd wish you had thirty more
Speaker 1: minutes to say I love you, right, right, And that's it.
Speaker 1: So every day say I love you. That's a part
Speaker 1: of my treatment plan, and that's okay. And so it's
Speaker 1: it's a different mindset because you know what, we never
Speaker 1: want to say goodbye, never, right, but we have to.
Speaker 1: So that's their only fault.
Speaker 2: It is definitely a double edged sword. I think about
Speaker 2: this a lot, where the people where you have your pet,
Speaker 2: who you're rushing to the er, you find out they're
Speaker 2: very sick and euthanasia is an option, and having to
Speaker 2: euthanize them in that emergency situation, versus in my case,
Speaker 2: my dog has bone cancer, I'm taking her home, I'm
Speaker 2: living with her for six months, but knowing that she's
Speaker 2: slowly going to deteriorate. And neither one is great. They
Speaker 2: both have their comments they're very both challenging in their
Speaker 2: own ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, both both, I mean, dare I say both
Speaker 1: have their pros? Who both have their crimes? Right, Like
Speaker 1: I think we're so like, oh, I don't want to
Speaker 1: say that. But one pro is that you don't have
Speaker 1: to sit there and think about it for six months.
Speaker 1: It's just it's come so fast you're like, oh. But
Speaker 1: that's also at the same point a con. And when
Speaker 1: I've like you've had pets with you know, a long,
Speaker 1: longer term illness. I mean most of mine were about
Speaker 1: six months too. Once you really diagnose and and you're
Speaker 1: just you're every day thinking every day, looking every day,
Speaker 1: worrying every day, anxious. That's called anticipatory grief too. Rite.
Speaker 1: So you're all those things for months at a time.
Speaker 1: So that's a con. But a pro is you get
Speaker 1: them for six months. So both have both have their things.
Speaker 1: But what I don't want it's just when it is
Speaker 1: an accident meanings or fast or emergency, you just don't
Speaker 1: have any time to prepare. So I do believe having
Speaker 1: the time, whether it's six months or six days, that's
Speaker 1: that's okay, because anything is better than emergency.
Speaker 2: A little less traumatic for sure. Yes, a lot, a
Speaker 2: lot less, a lot less atmatic. What are the things
Speaker 2: that you are looking at? Because I think it's very
Speaker 2: hard to quantify the quality of life. So people come
Speaker 2: in and they say, how will I know it's time?
Speaker 2: And so what are you looking at when you're assessing
Speaker 2: quality of life in a pet?
Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah, because this is super subjective and as veterinarians,
Speaker 1: we're like all about objective things, right, Oh, what's the bun?
Speaker 1: Care at any numbers and things like that? Right, this
Speaker 1: is absolutely none of those things. And I do love
Speaker 1: quality of life scales, which is an objective way to
Speaker 1: measure something that is so subjective. But it certainly helps
Speaker 1: as a guide it and it asks questions that many
Speaker 1: of us wouldn't be thinking about. Right. So, but to begin,
Speaker 1: I there are four things that I look at. First off,
Speaker 1: is the ailment that the pet has and how they
Speaker 1: will pass from it. Now, most of them have multiple ailments,
Speaker 1: so you might have a dog with more ability issues
Speaker 1: and heart failure and cognitive dysfunction or whatever. Right, So
Speaker 1: so I look at the worst one, meaning which one
Speaker 1: is going to be an imminent decline and happen fast
Speaker 1: with an emergent emergency room is an issue, right, and
Speaker 1: so to me, that's any disease that takes away their
Speaker 1: ability to breathe. So, any disease like heart failure, lorential paralysis,
Speaker 1: you know, you know the whole list that the ailment
Speaker 1: is going to make them have respiratory distress. That's what
Speaker 1: I'm going to focus on and say, if we don't
Speaker 1: say goodbye at a sooner date, than you will be
Speaker 1: going to emergency clinic. Like that's and that is that
Speaker 1: what you want? And I and no judgment. Some people
Speaker 1: may want every single second of time with them, and
Speaker 1: I get it. And I'm like, are you prepared to
Speaker 1: be rushing to the emergency room? Like that's that is
Speaker 1: going to be the consequence of this, good or bad whatever.
Speaker 1: The second we I already talk about is the ailment
Speaker 1: or sorry is the pets personality? Right? So how are
Speaker 1: they managing their treatment? How are they managing their disease?
Speaker 1: Some things are are harder to manage, like like anxiety,
Speaker 1: so cognitive dysfunction, it's I hate it. It's horrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for those listening, it's I think it's very much
Speaker 2: like dogs almost get like a dementia.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally and cats too.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, cat wow like all.
Speaker 1: Night and just and peeing outside their litter box because
Speaker 1: they just don't know where it's at. You know, It's
Speaker 1: kind of it presents a little bit differently. Vocalization is
Speaker 1: is more with cats, but you'll have dogs panting and
Speaker 1: pasting and anxious and keeping everyone awake and they're not sleeping,
Speaker 1: so quality of the sleep is important. But so with
Speaker 1: pet's personality is very key. Then everybody's beliefs. We are
Speaker 1: all so different and some people may say, you know
Speaker 1: what that's that cat is just my you know, barn
Speaker 1: cat and they chase mice and they do whatever. So
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do I'm not going to do
Speaker 1: treat like other treatment, so I'm going to euthanize before
Speaker 1: that is that something that is required for good quality
Speaker 1: of life? It could be, you know, just I've helped
Speaker 1: junkyard dogs, so I don't know if I say that,
Speaker 1: like the people sometimes love their dogs that are just
Speaker 1: protecting the property. But it could also then be a
Speaker 1: teacup that's in bed with you or a giant dog
Speaker 1: in bed with you. And we have different different ways
Speaker 1: we view our pets and also different ways we view
Speaker 1: our treatments. And there are some that will say it's
Speaker 1: just a cat, so I'm going to keep them, take
Speaker 1: care of them. And then but then that's it. So
Speaker 1: we're also different. And then and with that being said,
Speaker 1: there's also some religious differences for euthanasia.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I've had many Buddhists that are against euthanasia, and so, okay, well,
Speaker 1: how do we manage that because they also don't want
Speaker 1: their pets to suffer?
Speaker 2: Ye.
Speaker 1: Then the last is the budgets, which I talked about also,
Speaker 1: like do they have not just the finances, do they
Speaker 1: have the time, the physical ability, and the emotional capacity
Speaker 1: to manage their pets as they're aging. And at any time,
Speaker 1: if any one of those budgets is up, then I
Speaker 1: support their decision to say goodbye. And you know, somebody
Speaker 1: could call me on a Monday and they say, oh, Mary,
Speaker 1: doctor Mary was like the worst weekend. She wouldn't eat much,
Speaker 1: we she could barely get up, didn't sleep a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, the list goes on, will you come today
Speaker 1: and help us? Say goodbye? And absolutely I will. They
Speaker 1: could also call me on Monday and say we had
Speaker 1: a beautiful weekend. We did bucketless items. We you know,
Speaker 1: she ate like a champ. Everybody was around. Will you
Speaker 1: come and say goodbye? Because that's how we want her
Speaker 1: last days to be and we never think of it
Speaker 1: that way, but I say, yes I will. So it's
Speaker 1: okay to euthanize them on a good day when we
Speaker 1: know bad days are right around the corner.
Speaker 2: Right. I think that is so important. I see so
Speaker 2: many owners where they're like, well, well Fluffy is still eating,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm Fluffy still drinking, And that to me
Speaker 2: is not an indicator of a good quality of life. Nope,
Speaker 2: Fluffy can.
Speaker 1: Can get to the water bowl, right, Like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think you have to think about what disease they have.
Speaker 1: That's why the ailment, like I mentioned, what ailment they have,
Speaker 1: is going to determine what they lose. And you can
Speaker 1: have a yellow lab that's got arthritis that will eat
Speaker 1: their way into the heaven. Yeah, yeah, exactly the grave, right,
Speaker 1: they won't eat their way to grave. That was better
Speaker 1: than thinking. And it's just the disease they have in
Speaker 1: the pets, you know, personality and their normal eating habits.
Speaker 1: People will say, oh, they'll give you a look. Well,
Speaker 1: the look you get comes when they're so much suffering,
Speaker 1: you see it present on their face. And I never
Speaker 1: want to see a look. So there's no way I
Speaker 1: ever tell someone don't worry you'll get a look because
Speaker 1: you're waiting for it to be so bad, right, Like
Speaker 1: that's that's obvious on a cat's face. So I would
Speaker 1: never want that either. But it is. It is really hard,
Speaker 1: and it is a personal decision, but you have to
Speaker 1: you have to make it with love and mind. And
Speaker 1: I always say that we suffer so they don't, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so we have to say goodbye and break our
Speaker 1: hearts so we don't make them suffer.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great point. I just actually euthanized
Speaker 2: a friend's dog a couple of weeks ago, and she
Speaker 2: called me and she said, I just need you to
Speaker 2: come look at her. Name's Lailah. Come look at Laila,
Speaker 2: and just tell me that it's okay that I make
Speaker 2: the right decision. And So for any listeners out there
Speaker 2: that are struggling with this, I think you can really
Speaker 2: rely on your veterinarian. And it's hard sometimes even bring
Speaker 2: up that because you feel like you're your pet's own
Speaker 2: executioner almost, and so it's okay to ask your vet,
Speaker 2: do you think making the right decision?
Speaker 1: Totally, And you know, I lecture a lot to veterinarians,
Speaker 1: and I encourage us to bring it up because because
Speaker 1: pet families are so so conscious, like do they don't
Speaker 1: want to do that, and I think it's I think
Speaker 1: we need to to help them. And but but boy
Speaker 1: don't we don't. We don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 1: But I think it's it's absolutely something that we should
Speaker 1: be talking about sooner than later, so that way everybody
Speaker 1: is supported and not in a situation that could have
Speaker 1: been avoided.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's true. I've never had an owner say,
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I I did it too soon, but I
Speaker 2: have had many say I waited way too long. So
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: App absolutely, you know, you know that saying no, it's
Speaker 1: better a week too soon than a day too late,
Speaker 1: which is which is totally true, and asking your veninarian
Speaker 1: for evaluation like yours that your friend did with Leila.
Speaker 1: But so we at lack of love. We actually have
Speaker 1: tele hospice services where we will do a virtual conversation
Speaker 1: with families all around the country just on quality of
Speaker 1: life assessment of their pets. So it doesn't even need
Speaker 1: to be in an area where that we service, which
Speaker 1: we do have a lot of those. But if you're
Speaker 1: in a in a rural wherever that we're we don't
Speaker 1: have a veterinarian, then that's massively helpful. And what I
Speaker 1: do like is showing the home because how they act
Speaker 1: in the home is very different sometimes when we bring
Speaker 1: them into a clinic, yes and both ways.
Speaker 2: Yes, so how they are at home can be entirely different,
Speaker 2: especially like if they're sick and they come in and
Speaker 2: they have this adrenaline rush and they're prancing around they're
Speaker 2: at home, they're like a vegetable. Then you know, they
Speaker 2: just are totally different.
Speaker 1: It's so true, like the vegetable comment. It's crazy, Like
Speaker 1: I they will come and perk up and be good,
Speaker 1: and they come home and they're just staring at the
Speaker 1: corner with especially cognitive dysfunction, or they're just so exhausted
Speaker 1: they can't they can't do anything, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: there's kind of a I don't want to call it
Speaker 1: syndrome is not a good word for it, but it's
Speaker 1: a phenomenon. I guess where primary caregivers are usually ready
Speaker 1: to say goodbye before the secondary or tertiary caregivers because
Speaker 1: they're seeing the whole picture. They see the whole day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they see the struggles and it's not so much a
Speaker 1: selfish thing like I'm done cleaning up the poop or
Speaker 1: you know whatever. They see the whole day where somebody
Speaker 1: comes home at six point thirty at night and the
Speaker 1: dog gets the adrenaline is so happy them and they
Speaker 1: have dinner and they're like, oh, let's all curl up
Speaker 1: in front of the TV.
Speaker 2: They don't know, they don't know.
Speaker 1: So that's just I don't know if you've experienced that too.
Speaker 1: It's just very interesting to see that the duality at
Speaker 1: home between family members and how they're never on the
Speaker 1: same page.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree with that. A lot of times it
Speaker 2: is one who's like, no, I know it's time, and
Speaker 2: the other is just not on board. And it typically
Speaker 2: the one that's not on board is the one that's
Speaker 2: not doing the majority of the caregiving.
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. And like I said, it is not because
Speaker 1: they're tired giving the care it's they see it. They
Speaker 1: just see it way more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if someone wants to go on lap of love
Speaker 2: for that quality of life assessment is that on the website.
Speaker 1: Yep, it is. It's just on the drop down of
Speaker 1: one of our services, along with of course in home euthanasia,
Speaker 1: in home hospice and then our pet loss support. So
Speaker 1: it's right there, that's listed there, and it could be
Speaker 1: really valuable just to have just a conversation, no judgment.
Speaker 1: We can go over quality and life scales with them
Speaker 1: which are very helpful and and like I said, they
Speaker 1: could kind of you know, you can see the environment.
Speaker 1: But if somebody does want to come into their vet's office,
Speaker 1: they can also not bring their pet in and say
Speaker 1: these are all this is the list of problems that
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with. Here's a video of how she's acting
Speaker 1: at home. Here's some pictures of how the house is
Speaker 1: set up. And we could still help without the pet
Speaker 1: being present, if it's too much for the pet to
Speaker 1: come in. So I like to encourage people to do that,
Speaker 1: and I think we forget that that's okay to do,
Speaker 1: because this is a conversation. Half the time when I'm
Speaker 1: in the home, you know, the dog's laying over in
Speaker 1: a corner anyway, and we're just conversing.
Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, they're not even a part of the situation. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: and I guess I would love for owners to take
Speaker 2: away It's okay to bring it up, It's okay to
Speaker 2: talk about it. It feels impossible, but it's something that
Speaker 2: we have to have a discuss, and it's better to
Speaker 2: do it beforehand and feel prepared rather than than doing
Speaker 2: it the very last second. So rely on engineerians for that.
Speaker 2: That's what we're here to help with the actual like
Speaker 2: act of euthanasia. I think a lot of people, many
Speaker 2: people haven't been a part of it and curious about it,
Speaker 2: and what I typically say to them is it is
Speaker 2: intended to be very peaceful. And I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of owners that afterwards say wow, like I wasn't expecting
Speaker 2: it to be so peaceful, and they get a lot
Speaker 2: of closure from it. So you do interested to hear
Speaker 2: what your thoughts are now.
Speaker 1: I like how you said that too. It's intended to
Speaker 1: be peaceful because that is that is true life and
Speaker 1: our bodies and medicine, you know, like that they don't
Speaker 1: always cooperate. So even under the best of circumstances, sometimes
Speaker 1: the body has reactions that can be startling. With that
Speaker 1: being said, mother nature and when natural passing happens, all
Speaker 1: of those things can also be present and worse, So
Speaker 1: people who want mother Nature to do it and have
Speaker 1: you know, two am, when everybody is asleep, they don't
Speaker 1: watch their pet waking up and suffering through that process.
Speaker 1: So what we can guarantee though, is sedation, and we
Speaker 1: can guarantee that they're not conscious for those things. Even
Speaker 1: if the body has a reaction, they're not conscious for it.
Speaker 1: And it requires consciousness to experience pain and suffering.
Speaker 2: So I think that's a really important point. I have
Speaker 2: a lot of owners that say, gosh, I would love
Speaker 2: for my pet to just die naturally at home, and
Speaker 2: I think what we know from humans is that that
Speaker 2: can be a very terrible experience.
Speaker 1: Uh, and it can be a very long experience. So
Speaker 1: you know, death is an immediate, it's a phase, and
Speaker 1: I have seen videos of because I would never allow
Speaker 1: to continue, but I've seen like cats die of kidney failure.
Speaker 1: The active dying process takes over three hours. That's so
Speaker 1: it's not a quick and I'm done right, it's long.
Speaker 1: You know. I lost my uncle three years ago and
Speaker 1: it was you know, like the real act of dying
Speaker 1: process was almost a whole day and that's a lot,
Speaker 1: and we had him on morphine. We don't do that
Speaker 1: in our pets, so I think everybody can tell I'm
Speaker 1: pretty adamant about this. But getting back to euthanasia, because
Speaker 1: that is where you know, it would be nice because
Speaker 1: we can control things way better. We can control ninety
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of the situation. So most most
Speaker 1: veterinarians and clinics will will give some lovely sedation before
Speaker 1: the final medication, and that's great if we end it
Speaker 1: is not medically necessary at all, but it is really
Speaker 1: nice for owners to see their pets just sleeping beforehand.
Speaker 1: It kind of sets the room for being peaceful. And
Speaker 1: for those that may not want to be present, I
Speaker 1: do encourage them to be present, just at least for
Speaker 1: that and once your pet is sedated, I understand. I
Speaker 1: totally understand when people don't want to be present. I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of stigma about those that don't
Speaker 1: want to be present, and they get almost guilted into it,
Speaker 1: like your pet's looking for you and stuff, like your
Speaker 1: pet's always looking for you from day one, right, like
Speaker 1: they're always going to So don't think it's because of
Speaker 1: this that they're scared. So but at least maybe stay
Speaker 1: for the sedation. And did you know that the last
Speaker 1: sense to go is the sense of hearing, so you
Speaker 1: could just be speaking to your pet. They hear that
Speaker 1: until the end, like that's amazing. And then the second medication.
Speaker 1: What a lot of people then think is that we're
Speaker 1: stopping the heart, and we're not. We're actually stopping the brain.
Speaker 1: It's simply an overdose of anesthesias, so we stopped the brain.
Speaker 1: The brain is an amazing order. It controls everything, and
Speaker 1: so when that slows down and is gone, and everything
Speaker 1: else follows and it's extremely peaceful. And you know, some
Speaker 1: of the reactions people see are really just energy leading
Speaker 1: the bodies. So if we see muscles tremor and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, that's just that's just energy leaving. If we
Speaker 1: see what we call an agonal breath, which is just
Speaker 1: actually the diaphragm relaxing, which is a muscle and that
Speaker 1: that forces air out and it just it looks like
Speaker 1: a breath, so people get scared, But those things actually
Speaker 1: rarely happen. It's only about three percent that that happens.
Speaker 1: The only thing I actually prepare owners for when the
Speaker 1: euthanasia is happening is that they won't close their eyes.
Speaker 1: And I can't stand out about you. But when I
Speaker 1: see it in the movies when the eyes close, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they like push the other I'm like, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not real.
Speaker 1: And you're and you're making my job hard because people
Speaker 1: are expecting that, and they'll sit there and try to
Speaker 1: do that. So I always prepare for that because that
Speaker 1: happens one hundred percent of the time, and they may
Speaker 1: relax their bladder and and you know, go to the
Speaker 1: bathroom number two as well. So I like to prepare
Speaker 1: that because you know, everything relaxes and that could be
Speaker 1: upsetting to some people. But all the other stuff I
Speaker 1: don't even prepare owners for. It's like, if it happens,
Speaker 1: we talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's very far in few between the other stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: I really like how you said it's okay if you
Speaker 2: don't want to be present for the actual act of
Speaker 2: youth in Asia itself. I think it is such a
Speaker 2: personal preference. I do think it's, like you said, important
Speaker 2: for me for you to be there while they're self conscious.
Speaker 2: I think like it's part of our responsibility as pet
Speaker 2: owners to be there for them. But once they're unconscious
Speaker 2: and they've had that sedation, I think if that's not
Speaker 2: something that you want to be a part of, but
Speaker 2: that is okay. And I certainly don't want anyone to
Speaker 2: ever feel like, oh my gosh, I have to be
Speaker 2: here because people on the internet are going to shame
Speaker 2: me because people are very about it.
Speaker 1: I I can't stand that shame. And you know what
Speaker 1: if if you even can't even be present for this,
Speaker 1: which I really like want people to do because because
Speaker 1: I think it's so good not just for the pet,
Speaker 1: but for you enclosure, Like I promise you to do that.
Speaker 1: It's so helpful when you don't know and you dropped
Speaker 1: off your pet and you've got the will that could
Speaker 1: haunt you. But but everybody should know at the vet clinic,
Speaker 1: we love on your pet. Yeah, you know, we love
Speaker 1: on them. We give them treats, we give them sedation,
Speaker 1: we give all those things and the team will love
Speaker 1: up on them. So so don't feel guilty because it's
Speaker 1: not like we were just like, oh, that was a
Speaker 1: drop off, so we're not going to do it well
Speaker 1: like that's I used to work at a shelter. We
Speaker 1: loved up on all of them. And I there was
Speaker 1: a wonderful director of our shelter, doctor Sarah Pizzano. And
Speaker 1: this is when I before I became a VETS. This
Speaker 1: is early two thousands, and so I was making the
Speaker 1: surgery packs and whatever, and I would hear this voice
Speaker 1: down this long hallway. Here's what Wait, wait wait, I'm like,
Speaker 1: who is that? And doctor Sarah Pizzano every dog that
Speaker 1: walked past her office to go get you because we
Speaker 1: because even though we were quote a no kill shelter,
Speaker 1: pets were euthanized because of sickness or behavior. Way I'd
Speaker 1: hear and every pet she'd say, high, handsome boy, Hi,
Speaker 1: beautiful angel. And she loved up literally on every single
Speaker 1: dog that walked past her room to go to euthanasia.
Speaker 1: And it was just such a sweet thing to see
Speaker 1: that I'll never And so every pet I walk into
Speaker 1: a home, I say that, hey, handsome boy, high beautiful angel,
Speaker 1: and love up on them. And if families, I'll go
Speaker 1: to homes. It's rare, but I've gone to homes where
Speaker 1: they want me there. But they're going to step outside,
Speaker 1: they're going to go to the backyard. They don't want
Speaker 1: to be present. For that euthanasia, and I support that decision.
Speaker 1: And then afterwards I want them to come back in
Speaker 1: and we make paw prince and we love up on
Speaker 1: them and things like that. But it's it's hard. I
Speaker 1: watched my uncle passing and it's.
Speaker 2: Hard, really hard to watch. It's really hard. And the
Speaker 2: last thing you want to feel is that some outsiders
Speaker 2: judging you. So I think it's yeah, have to do No.
Speaker 1: I think I think shame on us if we judge them.
Speaker 1: That's where I think shame should be. And I'm really
Speaker 1: adamant about that because I've had a family member who
Speaker 1: couldn't be present at all and she's like, I just
Speaker 1: I need to stay at work. I don't want to
Speaker 1: think about it, and no problem, I will. I will
Speaker 1: make sure she's got a good goodbye in my hands,
Speaker 1: and that is my oath to them. So so anyway,
Speaker 1: that's I'm glad we talked about that, because that is
Speaker 1: a it is a big topic, or there's just one
Speaker 1: that I see creep in and I don't like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, me either. I think one thing I'm sure
Speaker 2: you have gotten this many times is people will always
Speaker 2: say to me when I was little, I really wanted
Speaker 2: to be a veterinarian, but I could never ethanize a pet,
Speaker 2: like I just could never do that. And so to that,
Speaker 2: I say, well, that's not my entire job. But when
Speaker 2: I do, when I do have to euthanize a pet,
Speaker 2: it's very much a privilege for me where I'm preventing
Speaker 2: them from suffering. I I'm not doing it unless I
Speaker 2: feel one hundred percent that I'm doing the right thing
Speaker 2: for the animal. And so I definitely feel the weight
Speaker 2: the responsibility of it, but again the privilege, and it's
Speaker 2: just part of taking care of them.
Speaker 1: It's so it's so so true. I am. I own
Speaker 1: I own a crematory also pet crematory. So I'm a
Speaker 1: little unique, right. And so today we had a new
Speaker 1: a new employee that I was I was talking to
Speaker 1: and she said that exact thing to me. She's like,
Speaker 1: I could never do it, but so at least I'm
Speaker 1: still helping. I'm doing this like she's working at the crematory.
Speaker 1: It's just that final thing is really hard for people,
Speaker 1: and I don't see it that way. And I actually
Speaker 1: do that for a living. That is all that I do, right, So,
Speaker 1: like you think i'd be crying all day long. I
Speaker 1: do actually cry a lot, but because I see them,
Speaker 1: I see families that love their pets. How joyous is
Speaker 1: that to see families see pets that they're loved so
Speaker 1: much that the owners were sleeping in the living room
Speaker 1: for weeks, that they were handmaking food, you know, all
Speaker 1: the time, that they set up a party, a goodbye
Speaker 1: party that they they read. I've been to you know
Speaker 1: where Jewish prayers are are read to their pet. Like,
Speaker 1: so the same cultural things that we do for our humans,
Speaker 1: they're doing for pet like it's beautiful and to help
Speaker 1: us share that petet to the next stage and do
Speaker 1: it well, like I'm love. I love helping, and that's
Speaker 1: what we can do. We became vets to help animals,
Speaker 1: and it's not always to save them, and it is
Speaker 1: it can be hard when it's not done well. So
Speaker 1: I'll say that right like one hundred percent. And when
Speaker 1: I worked in that shelter, we still did it well.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I took away from that,
Speaker 1: and that was twenty plus years ago, was sedation because
Speaker 1: in the shelter we didn't sedate, and so it was
Speaker 1: very hard for me to be speaking to a pet right,
Speaker 1: a dog while it's wagon its tail and licking my face,
Speaker 1: let's say, right, but I know it's got a pretty
Speaker 1: severe disease whatever, and I have to uth andite without sedation.
Speaker 1: That was hard. So that's hard for me. So our
Speaker 1: shelter bets I give them a lot of kudos. But anyway,
Speaker 1: but when you can make it beautiful and a family
Speaker 1: is so grateful to you, and you know, we get
Speaker 1: the best hugs and things like that. But I remember
Speaker 1: this one time. I always say I go into homes
Speaker 1: as the angel of death and I just leave the
Speaker 1: angel because they're just so amazed at at what the
Speaker 1: processes can be. And and you know, I also feel
Speaker 1: there's a bit of relief to families afterwards, yes, and
Speaker 1: they're shocked at that. And then sometimes like ohh and
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of and this might seem crazy
Speaker 1: that I'm going to give this analogy, but it's sort
Speaker 1: of like if you've ever been nauseous and you have
Speaker 1: to vomit, right, you know, you know I'm got to
Speaker 1: do it. It's coming, and you know you'll feel better after,
Speaker 1: like you just don't want to do it. So you've
Speaker 1: got this time where you're like, and you were avoiding
Speaker 1: it and then you do it, and then after you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm better, and you know, I don't mean to minimalize
Speaker 1: what we do, but it's very much like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, no, that really sucked, but now I'm feeling
Speaker 2: a little bit better.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling better. I know my dog. I like they
Speaker 1: you always missed your pet, but now you know your
Speaker 1: pet isn't struggling, and you know your pet is not
Speaker 1: dealing with these diseases, and you know your pet's okay
Speaker 1: wherever that may be. And so I think that's sometimes helpful.
Speaker 1: And I do think people will say goodbye the first time,
Speaker 1: usually too late. It's the second and third time where
Speaker 1: they are like they've learned from that and they said, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to let that happen. So you know
Speaker 1: it is I want to say, you know, the more
Speaker 1: time you do it, the better, But it's not that
Speaker 1: it's better, you manage it better.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. I mean, no one writes you a rule
Speaker 2: book on these kinds of things. So with experience, you
Speaker 2: definitely learned to manage it better, for sure, totally, Yes,
Speaker 2: for sure. I mean even as a veterinarian I really
Speaker 2: had to have my husband be like, listen, I think
Speaker 2: it's time, let's do it before it gets worse. And
Speaker 2: I am like, yeah, I'm a veterineery and I'm very
Speaker 2: objective in my thinking, but all all common logical thought
Speaker 2: goes out the window.
Speaker 1: We I am the mayor of Denial Island myself when
Speaker 1: it comes to my own like, I am just and
Speaker 1: I am the queen of quality of life assessment, I think, right,
Speaker 1: the self proclaimed queen of it. And it's still when
Speaker 1: you're a mom or a dad or what like, you know,
Speaker 1: pet owner whatever, like this so hard because we want
Speaker 1: every single day. You know, I always say it's never
Speaker 1: long enough and one more day, but I want to
Speaker 1: make sure that one more day isn't a bad day.
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's not. And it just becomes about us and
Speaker 2: not them. Yeah, So what any resources anything you recommend
Speaker 2: for owners after euthanasia. I know I of Love has
Speaker 2: some resources, any support, yes, so.
Speaker 1: Listen, if there's a good local support group and a
Speaker 1: lot of people can just you know, search for that.
Speaker 1: But we do at Lack of Love. We do have
Speaker 1: a pet loss support group, which is amazing. So we
Speaker 1: do every single day. We have a virtual support group,
Speaker 1: which is completely free to anyone anywhere who's lost a pet.
Speaker 1: We've got people from Asia that log in from Brazil
Speaker 1: and if you've lost a pet, you can go every
Speaker 1: day and it spree. So there's those. Then if you
Speaker 1: want a little bit one on one with somebody that
Speaker 1: can help you through some of the grieving process, we
Speaker 1: do have a one on one session, which I think
Speaker 1: is maybe fifty dollars for an hour or something like that.
Speaker 1: It's not a lot. But we also have some specialized
Speaker 1: groups where we talk about children in grief, men in grief,
Speaker 1: cat owners, anticipatory grief. So we've got some specialized groups
Speaker 1: which is kind of, you know, really interesting, and we're
Speaker 1: working on more and more and so I think that's
Speaker 1: really helpful for families. And then we also have a course,
Speaker 1: a six week course to help people manage through this
Speaker 1: whole grieving process. And I've made even activity books for
Speaker 1: kids called Forever Friend and you can get them on Amazon,
Speaker 1: and they're because I think children and grief is tough
Speaker 1: for moms and dads, like they don't know how to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Yeah, and so my activity book kind
Speaker 1: of goes through some stuff where we could talk about
Speaker 1: passing or you know, and it's not just after. We
Speaker 1: need to help them before. And that's everybody, not just kids, right,
Speaker 1: So pat loss isn't always just after. So it comes
Speaker 1: because of that anticipation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think for all the listeners out there,
Speaker 2: I know I felt really sad for a very long time.
Speaker 2: But the first few months the grief is can be overwhelming,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you might even feel a little like silly
Speaker 2: when you're telling people like, oh, I'm sad because I
Speaker 2: lost my dog. And maybe not everyone's a dog person
Speaker 2: and they may not fully understand, but people with animals,
Speaker 2: I find they will say to me, I was more
Speaker 2: sad and I lost my pet and when my grandma
Speaker 2: passed away or then my aunt died, and it's just
Speaker 2: they are like our children. And so if you're feeling
Speaker 2: that extreme grief, you are not alone totally.
Speaker 1: That they call it disenfranchised grief when Simon says, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just a cat, right, and no, no, that was
Speaker 1: my herbie. I actually I was. I am what they
Speaker 1: call second year veterinarian, a second year a second career veterinarian,
Speaker 1: and so I was ten years in the software industry,
Speaker 1: and it was the death of my own dog that
Speaker 1: I when I was in grief, I decided to go
Speaker 1: back to vet school, so I like, so I know
Speaker 1: firsthand that grief can really impact your life, so much
Speaker 1: so that I left a really good career became a
Speaker 1: veterinarian in my thirties. So I'm you know, I believe
Speaker 1: that pet that, you know, my first one that I lost,
Speaker 1: snow White, you know she's watching over me, and know
Speaker 1: that you know I've done I've done well because I've
Speaker 1: I've taken that experience now you know, have come twenty
Speaker 1: years later helping others.
Speaker 2: Yeah, full circle, full circle. Yeah, that's amazing. What was
Speaker 2: Snowed a dog or a cat?
Speaker 1: She was a dog. She was a samoid.
Speaker 2: Love They're great, They're great.
Speaker 1: They're so not common. And then I got a second
Speaker 1: samoid and uh and then I'm a I'm a Doberman
Speaker 1: lover too, but the best, the best are just good
Speaker 1: old mutts right.
Speaker 2: Them. I love it. Well, this is great. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much. I know it's not the easiest of subjects
Speaker 2: to talk about, but I feel like with all your
Speaker 2: experience and what you've done, you know with these subjects,
Speaker 2: has been really helpful, and I and it's important to
Speaker 2: talk about and have an open conversation, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: our listeners will, We'll get a lot from it. So
Speaker 2: I thank you for going on.
Speaker 1: You're very welcome.