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Speaker 1: You're listening to In the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horchak.

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Speaker 2: Hey, guys, and welcome back to In the Vets Office.

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Speaker 2: I am your host, doctor Josie, and this week we

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Speaker 2: are gonna switch things up just a little bit. Usually

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Speaker 2: we like to keep this podcast light, informative, but light,

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Speaker 2: and this week we're gonna talk about a little bit

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Speaker 2: heavier of subjects such as dealing with your senior pets,

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Speaker 2: end of life, quality of life, euthanasia, and the grief

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Speaker 2: that comes after euthanasia. I wanted to create this intro

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Speaker 2: as a trigger warning if you're not in the right

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Speaker 2: headspace to talk about or listen to these subjects, that

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Speaker 2: is completely understandable, and just wanted to make you aware

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Speaker 2: that the episode will be focused around them. I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to talk about these subjects because whether you have

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Speaker 2: a pet, or your pet is a senior, or you've

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Speaker 2: had to euthanize an animal before, it's inevitable as a

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Speaker 2: pet owner that we at some point will have to

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Speaker 2: deal with these and it's nice to know that you're

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Speaker 2: not alone, there are resources out there for you, and

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Speaker 2: just a little bit of comfort in how to deal

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Speaker 2: with it going forward. We're gonna hold off on doing

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Speaker 2: Paw and Order and Case of the Week and listener

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Speaker 2: question and answers. I feel like this is a pretty

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Speaker 2: heavy subject and so doing those segments feels a little

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Speaker 2: trivial to me, So we'll just focus on the bread

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Speaker 2: and butter and dive right into our interview. So, without

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Speaker 2: further ado, here we go. All right, Today, we have

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Speaker 2: doctor Mary Gardner joining us in the BETS office. She's

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Speaker 2: a veterinarian, an author, a public speaker, and the co

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Speaker 2: founder of Lap of Love, which, for those of you

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Speaker 2: not familiar with Lap of Love, it's a service that

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Speaker 2: provides in home pet euthanasia, veterinary hospice, and pet loss

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Speaker 2: coport services. Doctor Mary prides herself in making the lives

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Speaker 2: of our older pets and the people who love them better,

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Speaker 2: so I figured she was the perfect guest to have

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Speaker 2: today to discuss the end of life with our pets.

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Speaker 2: Welcome doctor Mary, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: How are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great. I'm so happy to have you on today.

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Speaker 2: I was prior to our interview giving our listeners a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a heads up that these are some

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Speaker 2: heavier topics to discuss, but important ones and everybody as

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Speaker 2: a pet owner at some point will we'll be dealing

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Speaker 2: with them. So I think it's really important that we

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Speaker 2: are able to talk openly about it, right.

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Speaker 1: I know we're such a death adverse society in general,

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Speaker 1: even in human death right and so it's it's not

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Speaker 1: a topic that people want to talk about, but yet

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Speaker 1: they need to talk about it, and then they usually

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Speaker 1: feel better after talking about it, so they just at

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Speaker 1: least know their options. Do we know what to expect

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Speaker 1: and then can sit back and still enjoy life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. And I know I mentioned I just mentioned

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Speaker 2: lap of Love and that you were a co founder

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Speaker 2: and before we dive into all the things, I actually

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Speaker 2: used Lap of Love for one of my dogs previously,

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Speaker 2: and I just want to let you know it was

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Speaker 2: such a great experience. And I know at home usin

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Speaker 2: Asia is not for everyone, but I think it's a

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Speaker 2: great option to have. And I can't say how in

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Speaker 2: a terrible situation, how great of an experience I had.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that it is. Yeah, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a personal choice of where and who's around and

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Speaker 1: things like that, and you know, I do feel that

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Speaker 1: they're most comfortable in their home and we don't have to,

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Speaker 1: you know, do a final ride in the car or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. But also we're a little bit more

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Speaker 1: comfortable in the home and if we want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: grieve in our own way, we can without having to

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Speaker 1: worry about who's seeing us or anything like that. So,

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Speaker 1: but like you said, not not everybody wants that, and

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Speaker 1: not everybody can have that because sometimes we're at the

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Speaker 1: emergency clinic or something like that and it's it's unfortunate.

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Speaker 1: So we're very blessed to have such a rewarding career

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Speaker 1: and or niche in the veterinary space, and we love

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Speaker 1: making that last final moment just a bit better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. One thing I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 2: is I think I'm sure, I'm sure you'll relate to

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Speaker 2: this that as veterinarians, a lot of times people think

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Speaker 2: we are playing with kittens and puppies and running around

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Speaker 2: it's rainbows and butterflies, But a huge portion of our

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Speaker 2: job is taking care of senior patients and ensuring that

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Speaker 2: they're healthy overall and they're comfortable, and so I think

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Speaker 2: a really a big part of our job. And I'll

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Speaker 2: be interested to hear you expand on it is focusing

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Speaker 2: on our senior pets and then also recognizing that age

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Speaker 2: is not necessarily a disease, although it can certainly come

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Speaker 2: with its challenges.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I always say age isn't a disease, but it

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Speaker 1: does bring disease, and our bodies do start to age

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Speaker 1: and have you know, it may not be a failure

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Speaker 1: of an organ or something like that, but we don't

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Speaker 1: have the same reparative processes. We don't have the same

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Speaker 1: energy level, the ability to fight off infections, and so

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just a fact of life, even for

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Speaker 1: our humans. But did you know that forty four percent

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Speaker 1: of pets, our senior are senior or more so. I

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Speaker 1: love double digits, so the more double digits they have,

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Speaker 1: the better, like a teenager if you will. But forty

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Speaker 1: four percent are over seven years old. And that's massive,

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Speaker 1: And so to your point, everybody thinks we're playing with

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Speaker 1: puppies or kittens, but that's that's actually only about twelve

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Speaker 1: percent of the population as a puppi er kitten because

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Speaker 1: eventually obviously they go to two, three, four years old,

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Speaker 1: but the majority is actually.

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Speaker 2: Seniors, right, And I think that a really important part

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Speaker 2: for owners listening is bringing your pets in once they

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Speaker 2: hit senior hood. I think bringing them in twice year

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Speaker 2: is really important, just that way we can lay our

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Speaker 2: hands on them or running lab work on an annual basis,

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Speaker 2: we can we can see how they're doing. We have

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Speaker 2: a good baseline, and then if some thing does come up,

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Speaker 2: we can be on top of it. And focusing on

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Speaker 2: that preventative care I think can make a huge difference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I was just this morning, I

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Speaker 1: was somewhere and this gentleman says, oh, I have a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old boxer, And this was just I wasn't

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Speaker 1: in a clinic, right, this is just random, and and

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Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you know, her hips are really bad,

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Speaker 1: and so it's a very common thing all here as well.

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Speaker 1: She's just she's getting old and what are we going

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Speaker 1: to do? And I'm like, and I wanted to, of

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Speaker 1: course go into my whole talk and conversation, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't have time. So what really makes me sad? And

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Speaker 1: so many people think that doing euthanasias is what makes

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Speaker 1: me sad. I do get sad, but that's not what

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Speaker 1: makes me sad is But what does is that so

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Speaker 1: many older pets have not been to their doctor. And

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Speaker 1: it is about forty nine percent of dogs and cats

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Speaker 1: are not seen by their veterinarian the last year life.

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Speaker 1: So let's just round that up to fifty percent because

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Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to talk. Half the pets that

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Speaker 1: we euthanize in the United States have not been to

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Speaker 1: their doctor the year before they pass, and that's where

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff happens where we can help manage,

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Speaker 1: and whether it's pain relief or anxiety relief or just

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Speaker 1: products and setting, you know, setting up their house. This

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Speaker 1: gentleman with this boxer, he's like, oh, she just you know,

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Speaker 1: she can't get a grip on the floor. She skates

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Speaker 1: all over and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so

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Speaker 1: easy to fix. And he just doesn't know. So I

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Speaker 1: would love twice a year's ideal. We got to get

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Speaker 1: him in yere, they're not even coming in at all,

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Speaker 1: So how do we get them in?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's like reframing our mindset as owners,

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Speaker 2: where oh, they're just old. Isn't really the mindset that

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Speaker 2: we want to have because there are so many things

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Speaker 2: that we can be doing to make their life better.

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Speaker 1: Correct, you know, it's interesting, like do we say that

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Speaker 1: about ourselves when we're when we're going to be sixty

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Speaker 1: seventies right, like and some that hurts or we can't

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Speaker 1: see as well? Are we just going to say I'm

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Speaker 1: just old? So I'm not going to go like we don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we say that to ourselves. And I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm in my I'm in my early fifties, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's a doctor's appointment on my calendar all

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Speaker 1: the time, Like there's just I have to go to

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Speaker 1: the dermatologists tomorrow, and you know, my knees are hurting,

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Speaker 1: so there's I feel like I'm always somewhere in a

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Speaker 1: doctor's office. But we don't say that in our to ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So why would we say the same thing for our pets?

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Speaker 2: Right? And I think a huge portion of it is

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Speaker 2: they can't talk, so we really have to advocate for them.

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Speaker 2: And even if you think your pet is perfectly healthy,

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Speaker 2: they still need to go in for their checkup because

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Speaker 2: we can. We are trained as terinarians to see these

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Speaker 2: issues and help make your life and their life better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know a lot of people will say, oh,

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Speaker 1: pets hide the hide their pain, so we don't see it,

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Speaker 1: but I kind of think they just don't complain. I agree,

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Speaker 1: like we actually and also people have goggles on it

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Speaker 1: they can't see things. And I'm sorry. If your pet

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Speaker 1: is slowing down, that's a sign of pain probably right,

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Speaker 1: So they actually are showing you. We just don't know

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Speaker 1: how to notice it. Oh, you know what, my kitty cat,

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Speaker 1: she's not grooming herself anymore. She's just getting old. No,

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Speaker 1: she hurts, therefore she can't groom herself. Or maybe she's

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Speaker 1: got oral ulcers and she can't say anything, and what

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Speaker 1: is she going to do? Complaint? Like, they don't complain,

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Speaker 1: So they actually aren't hiding signs of they're showing you.

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Speaker 1: You're just looking for a like a complaint, which they

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Speaker 1: don't do, right. I mean, now with that being said,

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Speaker 1: they meant so. In acute injury, you'll hear them complain

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Speaker 1: because they howl and cry and all that stuff. But

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Speaker 1: chronic long term illness like usually they just kind of

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Speaker 1: suck it up. But it doesn't mean they should.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing that I've had a lot of owners

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Speaker 2: and that i've dealt with in practice and a lot

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Speaker 2: of listeners ask me about, is your pet gets diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with terminal illness will say cancer, bone cancer, for example,

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Speaker 2: and people are really torn between, Okay, do I go

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Speaker 2: this much as I can with pursuing treatment versus doing

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Speaker 2: palliative care, which palliative for those listening at home, just

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Speaker 2: means keeping them comfortable until the end of life. I

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Speaker 2: just I see people struggle with that so often, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's a huge part of our job, is

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Speaker 2: helping them guide them to their decision. That's their family,

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Speaker 2: which may not be the same for everyone totally.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you said it perfectly, and because neither is

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Speaker 1: right or wrong, right, what I should say is neither

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Speaker 1: is wrong. And if a family wants to in your example,

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Speaker 1: do you know if they can do radio tactic things

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Speaker 1: or amputation and then you know, some other medications and

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Speaker 1: get another year from their pet and they can manage

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Speaker 1: them financially, physically, emotionally and time wise, and they can't,

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Speaker 1: then that's fine. But if they also have all those

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Speaker 1: things they have the time they but still don't want to,

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Speaker 1: that's all so fine, And but what we but but

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Speaker 1: I think the rules should be they should not be suffering.

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Speaker 1: So I don't I and that and that's not just

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Speaker 1: end of life diseases. There could be a disease. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is a harder thing is you've got a younger,

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Speaker 1: you know, younger cat that's got diabetes, and some people

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Speaker 1: just cannot manage that disease the treatment, and so what

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Speaker 1: do we what do we do? So we may not

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Speaker 1: be doing anything until that disease is taken, you know,

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Speaker 1: to a point where then the pet is suffering, and

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Speaker 1: there then we're gonna have to intervene. But and that's

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Speaker 1: I think where you and I as veterinarians kind of

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Speaker 1: get a little bit sad because we know that it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a treatment that's not so difficult. But when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about older you know, nearing the end or

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Speaker 1: a few years out, let's say, treatment becomes a little

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Speaker 1: subjective and what would you do? And even myself, I've

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Speaker 1: I've done some things for my own pets, and other

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Speaker 1: veterinarians are like, you did radiation, Like she's a twelve

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Speaker 1: year old dog, And I'm like, well she got two

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Speaker 1: more years, she got six more months. I don't care

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Speaker 1: as long as as long as she's okay going to

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Speaker 1: getting treatment and the treatment doesn't decrease her quality of life.

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Speaker 1: Then I'm then I'm going to do that, but it's

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Speaker 1: also okay if I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you said a really important thing

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Speaker 2: is as long as she meaning your dog, is okay

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Speaker 2: with it too, because it's very dependent on the patient.

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Speaker 2: If I have a dog that's like would it hates

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Speaker 2: other people, hates going to the vet for him, it

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Speaker 2: would be horrible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Pet's personality is a massive part of my

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Speaker 1: evaluation of quality of life. And like I have my

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Speaker 1: current dogs, he's got separation anxiety, and he's highly reactive,

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Speaker 1: and so he is just he is such a blessing

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Speaker 1: to me because he has taught me so much about

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Speaker 1: behavioral issues and and and he's not an aggressive dog

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Speaker 1: to peace people or really as long as he's not

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Speaker 1: around other dogs or cats, he's fine. But he's just

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Speaker 1: so anxious. There's no way I could bring him for

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Speaker 1: chemotherapy or rehab or any of those things because he

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Speaker 1: would just be not a good patient and he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable. So so for him, he's got the same

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Speaker 1: mama as my other dog that FMO, he wouldn't get

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Speaker 1: it because he's it's not good for him, And that's okay. Right.

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Speaker 2: I think a really big take home message I want

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Speaker 2: listeners to hear is whether you pursue treatment or you don't.

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Speaker 2: I think, no matter what, we are prone to being like, ah,

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Speaker 2: did I do the right thing? I'm questioning myself. I'm

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Speaker 2: feeling this level of guilt and there is no wrong.

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Speaker 2: Like you said, there's no wrong. And either way that

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Speaker 2: you go, it's really you have to look at it

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Speaker 2: from a very holistic approach with yourself and your pet

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Speaker 2: and whatever decision you make that's best for your family.

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Speaker 2: It will never feel one hundred percent right. But I

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Speaker 2: certainly I wish I could take away the guilt that

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Speaker 2: so many owners feel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I think? You know you said

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Speaker 1: if they don't want to do treatment. I think what

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Speaker 1: we should think about is that howly to care is

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Speaker 1: a treatment, right, So we are doing the treatment, we're

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Speaker 1: just doing a different one because there's there's many different

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Speaker 1: ways to treat something, and and sometimes we're doing things

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Speaker 1: for curative reasons, and some things we're just doing things

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Speaker 1: for prolonging life as long as it's good quality. And

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Speaker 1: there's also treatment is just pain management and quality life

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Speaker 1: assessment that's still a treatment option. So and I just

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Speaker 1: think it's but back to my point, I made whatever

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Speaker 1: a couple of minutes ago. We got to make sure

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Speaker 1: that their pain and anxiety is being managed. And so

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Speaker 1: it's not okay just to say, well, he's just getting

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Speaker 1: old exactly. That's not okay because because old age does

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Speaker 1: bring disease.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so we want to stay on top of it.

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Speaker 2: The Great Dane that I euthanized through Lap of Love,

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Speaker 2: she had osteosarcoma, which is bone cancer, and she would

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Speaker 2: not have been a good candidate for amputation just being

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Speaker 2: such a big dog. It would have been I think,

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Speaker 2: pretty difficult for her to get around, and so we

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Speaker 2: chose to go the palliative care route. We kept her

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Speaker 2: at home, We got a really great six months with

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Speaker 2: her and kept her on pain medications. She was getting

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Speaker 2: around just fine. And so so yeah, as doctor Mary said,

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Speaker 2: palliative care is a treatment option. It may just look

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Speaker 2: a little bit different than what we had in our head.

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Speaker 2: But I think I saw lot some really great time

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Speaker 2: with her and was able to keep her comfortable and

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Speaker 2: it was I'm grateful for that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I think that's the thing is everything,

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Speaker 1: Once we decide on palliative care, just kind of put

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Speaker 1: the guilt aside and just enjoy and do bucket lists,

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Speaker 1: get a photo shoot, just be present. I always prescribed

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Speaker 1: thirty minute twice a day of love and that's it.

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Speaker 1: Just love on your pet, because that is a part

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Speaker 1: of the process. If you were to lose a friend

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Speaker 1: or a family memory, you'd wish you had thirty more

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Speaker 1: minutes to say I love you, right, right, And that's it.

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Speaker 1: So every day say I love you. That's a part

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Speaker 1: of my treatment plan, and that's okay. And so it's

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Speaker 1: it's a different mindset because you know what, we never

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Speaker 1: want to say goodbye, never, right, but we have to.

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Speaker 1: So that's their only fault.

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Speaker 2: It is definitely a double edged sword. I think about

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Speaker 2: this a lot, where the people where you have your pet,

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Speaker 2: who you're rushing to the er, you find out they're

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Speaker 2: very sick and euthanasia is an option, and having to

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Speaker 2: euthanize them in that emergency situation, versus in my case,

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Speaker 2: my dog has bone cancer, I'm taking her home, I'm

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Speaker 2: living with her for six months, but knowing that she's

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Speaker 2: slowly going to deteriorate. And neither one is great. They

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Speaker 2: both have their comments they're very both challenging in their

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Speaker 2: own ways.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, both both, I mean, dare I say both

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Speaker 1: have their pros? Who both have their crimes? Right, Like

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Speaker 1: I think we're so like, oh, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say that. But one pro is that you don't have

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Speaker 1: to sit there and think about it for six months.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's come so fast you're like, oh. But

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Speaker 1: that's also at the same point a con. And when

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Speaker 1: I've like you've had pets with you know, a long,

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Speaker 1: longer term illness. I mean most of mine were about

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Speaker 1: six months too. Once you really diagnose and and you're

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Speaker 1: just you're every day thinking every day, looking every day,

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Speaker 1: worrying every day, anxious. That's called anticipatory grief too. Rite.

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Speaker 1: So you're all those things for months at a time.

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Speaker 1: So that's a con. But a pro is you get

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Speaker 1: them for six months. So both have both have their things.

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Speaker 1: But what I don't want it's just when it is

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Speaker 1: an accident meanings or fast or emergency, you just don't

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Speaker 1: have any time to prepare. So I do believe having

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Speaker 1: the time, whether it's six months or six days, that's

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Speaker 1: that's okay, because anything is better than emergency.

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Speaker 2: A little less traumatic for sure. Yes, a lot, a

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Speaker 2: lot less, a lot less atmatic. What are the things

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Speaker 2: that you are looking at? Because I think it's very

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Speaker 2: hard to quantify the quality of life. So people come

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Speaker 2: in and they say, how will I know it's time?

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Speaker 2: And so what are you looking at when you're assessing

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Speaker 2: quality of life in a pet?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah, because this is super subjective and as veterinarians,

348
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Speaker 1: we're like all about objective things, right, Oh, what's the bun?

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Speaker 1: Care at any numbers and things like that? Right, this

350
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Speaker 1: is absolutely none of those things. And I do love

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Speaker 1: quality of life scales, which is an objective way to

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Speaker 1: measure something that is so subjective. But it certainly helps

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Speaker 1: as a guide it and it asks questions that many

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Speaker 1: of us wouldn't be thinking about. Right. So, but to begin,

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Speaker 1: I there are four things that I look at. First off,

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Speaker 1: is the ailment that the pet has and how they

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Speaker 1: will pass from it. Now, most of them have multiple ailments,

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Speaker 1: so you might have a dog with more ability issues

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Speaker 1: and heart failure and cognitive dysfunction or whatever. Right, So

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Speaker 1: so I look at the worst one, meaning which one

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Speaker 1: is going to be an imminent decline and happen fast

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Speaker 1: with an emergent emergency room is an issue, right, and

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Speaker 1: so to me, that's any disease that takes away their

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Speaker 1: ability to breathe. So, any disease like heart failure, lorential paralysis,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know the whole list that the ailment

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Speaker 1: is going to make them have respiratory distress. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to focus on and say, if we don't

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Speaker 1: say goodbye at a sooner date, than you will be

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Speaker 1: going to emergency clinic. Like that's and that is that

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Speaker 1: what you want? And I and no judgment. Some people

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Speaker 1: may want every single second of time with them, and

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Speaker 1: I get it. And I'm like, are you prepared to

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Speaker 1: be rushing to the emergency room? Like that's that is

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Speaker 1: going to be the consequence of this, good or bad whatever.

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Speaker 1: The second we I already talk about is the ailment

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Speaker 1: or sorry is the pets personality? Right? So how are

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Speaker 1: they managing their treatment? How are they managing their disease?

378
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Speaker 1: Some things are are harder to manage, like like anxiety,

379
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Speaker 1: so cognitive dysfunction, it's I hate it. It's horrible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for those listening, it's I think it's very much

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Speaker 2: like dogs almost get like a dementia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally and cats too.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me, cat wow like all.

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Speaker 1: Night and just and peeing outside their litter box because

385
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Speaker 1: they just don't know where it's at. You know, It's

386
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Speaker 1: kind of it presents a little bit differently. Vocalization is

387
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Speaker 1: is more with cats, but you'll have dogs panting and

388
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Speaker 1: pasting and anxious and keeping everyone awake and they're not sleeping,

389
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Speaker 1: so quality of the sleep is important. But so with

390
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Speaker 1: pet's personality is very key. Then everybody's beliefs. We are

391
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Speaker 1: all so different and some people may say, you know

392
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Speaker 1: what that's that cat is just my you know, barn

393
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Speaker 1: cat and they chase mice and they do whatever. So

394
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do I'm not going to do

395
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Speaker 1: treat like other treatment, so I'm going to euthanize before

396
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Speaker 1: that is that something that is required for good quality

397
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Speaker 1: of life? It could be, you know, just I've helped

398
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Speaker 1: junkyard dogs, so I don't know if I say that,

399
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Speaker 1: like the people sometimes love their dogs that are just

400
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 1: protecting the property. But it could also then be a

401
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: teacup that's in bed with you or a giant dog

402
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 1: in bed with you. And we have different different ways

403
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Speaker 1: we view our pets and also different ways we view

404
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Speaker 1: our treatments. And there are some that will say it's

405
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Speaker 1: just a cat, so I'm going to keep them, take

406
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Speaker 1: care of them. And then but then that's it. So

407
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Speaker 1: we're also different. And then and with that being said,

408
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Speaker 1: there's also some religious differences for euthanasia.

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Speaker 2: Right.

410
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Speaker 1: I've had many Buddhists that are against euthanasia, and so, okay, well,

411
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Speaker 1: how do we manage that because they also don't want

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Speaker 1: their pets to suffer?

413
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Speaker 2: Ye.

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Speaker 1: Then the last is the budgets, which I talked about also,

415
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Speaker 1: like do they have not just the finances, do they

416
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Speaker 1: have the time, the physical ability, and the emotional capacity

417
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Speaker 1: to manage their pets as they're aging. And at any time,

418
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Speaker 1: if any one of those budgets is up, then I

419
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Speaker 1: support their decision to say goodbye. And you know, somebody

420
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Speaker 1: could call me on a Monday and they say, oh, Mary,

421
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Speaker 1: doctor Mary was like the worst weekend. She wouldn't eat much,

422
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Speaker 1: we she could barely get up, didn't sleep a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, the list goes on, will you come today

424
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Speaker 1: and help us? Say goodbye? And absolutely I will. They

425
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Speaker 1: could also call me on Monday and say we had

426
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Speaker 1: a beautiful weekend. We did bucketless items. We you know,

427
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: she ate like a champ. Everybody was around. Will you

428
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Speaker 1: come and say goodbye? Because that's how we want her

429
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Speaker 1: last days to be and we never think of it

430
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Speaker 1: that way, but I say, yes I will. So it's

431
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: okay to euthanize them on a good day when we

432
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: know bad days are right around the corner.

433
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: Right. I think that is so important. I see so

434
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 2: many owners where they're like, well, well Fluffy is still eating,

435
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm Fluffy still drinking, And that to me

436
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 2: is not an indicator of a good quality of life. Nope,

437
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: Fluffy can.

438
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: Can get to the water bowl, right, Like, yeah, I

439
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: think you have to think about what disease they have.

440
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: That's why the ailment, like I mentioned, what ailment they have,

441
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: is going to determine what they lose. And you can

442
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: have a yellow lab that's got arthritis that will eat

443
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: their way into the heaven. Yeah, yeah, exactly the grave, right,

444
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: they won't eat their way to grave. That was better

445
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: than thinking. And it's just the disease they have in

446
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: the pets, you know, personality and their normal eating habits.

447
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: People will say, oh, they'll give you a look. Well,

448
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: the look you get comes when they're so much suffering,

449
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: you see it present on their face. And I never

450
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 1: want to see a look. So there's no way I

451
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: ever tell someone don't worry you'll get a look because

452
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: you're waiting for it to be so bad, right, Like

453
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: that's that's obvious on a cat's face. So I would

454
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: never want that either. But it is. It is really hard,

455
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: and it is a personal decision, but you have to

456
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: you have to make it with love and mind. And

457
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: I always say that we suffer so they don't, Yeah,

458
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: and so we have to say goodbye and break our

459
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: hearts so we don't make them suffer.

460
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: I think that's a great point. I just actually euthanized

461
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: a friend's dog a couple of weeks ago, and she

462
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 2: called me and she said, I just need you to

463
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: come look at her. Name's Lailah. Come look at Laila,

464
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: and just tell me that it's okay that I make

465
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 2: the right decision. And So for any listeners out there

466
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 2: that are struggling with this, I think you can really

467
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: rely on your veterinarian. And it's hard sometimes even bring

468
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: up that because you feel like you're your pet's own

469
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: executioner almost, and so it's okay to ask your vet,

470
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 2: do you think making the right decision?

471
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: Totally, And you know, I lecture a lot to veterinarians,

472
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: and I encourage us to bring it up because because

473
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: pet families are so so conscious, like do they don't

474
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: want to do that, and I think it's I think

475
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: we need to to help them. And but but boy

476
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: don't we don't. We don't want to talk about it.

477
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: But I think it's it's absolutely something that we should

478
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: be talking about sooner than later, so that way everybody

479
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: is supported and not in a situation that could have

480
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: been avoided.

481
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's true. I've never had an owner say,

482
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I I did it too soon, but I

483
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: have had many say I waited way too long. So

484
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: I think.

485
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: App absolutely, you know, you know that saying no, it's

486
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: better a week too soon than a day too late,

487
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: which is which is totally true, and asking your veninarian

488
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: for evaluation like yours that your friend did with Leila.

489
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: But so we at lack of love. We actually have

490
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: tele hospice services where we will do a virtual conversation

491
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: with families all around the country just on quality of

492
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: life assessment of their pets. So it doesn't even need

493
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: to be in an area where that we service, which

494
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: we do have a lot of those. But if you're

495
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: in a in a rural wherever that we're we don't

496
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: have a veterinarian, then that's massively helpful. And what I

497
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: do like is showing the home because how they act

498
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: in the home is very different sometimes when we bring

499
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: them into a clinic, yes and both ways.

500
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: Yes, so how they are at home can be entirely different,

501
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: especially like if they're sick and they come in and

502
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: they have this adrenaline rush and they're prancing around they're

503
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: at home, they're like a vegetable. Then you know, they

504
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: just are totally different.

505
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: It's so true, like the vegetable comment. It's crazy, Like

506
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: I they will come and perk up and be good,

507
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: and they come home and they're just staring at the

508
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: corner with especially cognitive dysfunction, or they're just so exhausted

509
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: they can't they can't do anything, and you know, there's

510
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: there's kind of a I don't want to call it

511
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: syndrome is not a good word for it, but it's

512
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: a phenomenon. I guess where primary caregivers are usually ready

513
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: to say goodbye before the secondary or tertiary caregivers because

514
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: they're seeing the whole picture. They see the whole day. Yeah,

515
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: they see the struggles and it's not so much a

516
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: selfish thing like I'm done cleaning up the poop or

517
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: you know whatever. They see the whole day where somebody

518
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: comes home at six point thirty at night and the

519
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: dog gets the adrenaline is so happy them and they

520
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: have dinner and they're like, oh, let's all curl up

521
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: in front of the TV.

522
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,239
Speaker 2: They don't know, they don't know.

523
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: So that's just I don't know if you've experienced that too.

524
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: It's just very interesting to see that the duality at

525
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: home between family members and how they're never on the

526
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: same page.

527
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree with that. A lot of times it

528
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: is one who's like, no, I know it's time, and

529
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: the other is just not on board. And it typically

530
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: the one that's not on board is the one that's

531
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: not doing the majority of the caregiving.

532
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. And like I said, it is not because

533
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: they're tired giving the care it's they see it. They

534
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: just see it way more.

535
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, if someone wants to go on lap of love

536
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: for that quality of life assessment is that on the website.

537
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 1: Yep, it is. It's just on the drop down of

538
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: one of our services, along with of course in home euthanasia,

539
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: in home hospice and then our pet loss support. So

540
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: it's right there, that's listed there, and it could be

541
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: really valuable just to have just a conversation, no judgment.

542
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: We can go over quality and life scales with them

543
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: which are very helpful and and like I said, they

544
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 1: could kind of you know, you can see the environment.

545
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: But if somebody does want to come into their vet's office,

546
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: they can also not bring their pet in and say

547
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: these are all this is the list of problems that

548
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with. Here's a video of how she's acting

549
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: at home. Here's some pictures of how the house is

550
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: set up. And we could still help without the pet

551
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: being present, if it's too much for the pet to

552
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: come in. So I like to encourage people to do that,

553
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: and I think we forget that that's okay to do,

554
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: because this is a conversation. Half the time when I'm

555
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: in the home, you know, the dog's laying over in

556
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: a corner anyway, and we're just conversing.

557
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, they're not even a part of the situation. Yeah, absolutely,

558
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: and I guess I would love for owners to take

559
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: away It's okay to bring it up, It's okay to

560
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: talk about it. It feels impossible, but it's something that

561
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: we have to have a discuss, and it's better to

562
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: do it beforehand and feel prepared rather than than doing

563
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: it the very last second. So rely on engineerians for that.

564
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: That's what we're here to help with the actual like

565
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: act of euthanasia. I think a lot of people, many

566
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: people haven't been a part of it and curious about it,

567
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: and what I typically say to them is it is

568
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: intended to be very peaceful. And I've had a lot

569
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: of owners that afterwards say wow, like I wasn't expecting

570
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: it to be so peaceful, and they get a lot

571
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: of closure from it. So you do interested to hear

572
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: what your thoughts are now.

573
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: I like how you said that too. It's intended to

574
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: be peaceful because that is that is true life and

575
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: our bodies and medicine, you know, like that they don't

576
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: always cooperate. So even under the best of circumstances, sometimes

577
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: the body has reactions that can be startling. With that

578
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: being said, mother nature and when natural passing happens, all

579
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: of those things can also be present and worse, So

580
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: people who want mother Nature to do it and have

581
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, two am, when everybody is asleep, they don't

582
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: watch their pet waking up and suffering through that process.

583
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: So what we can guarantee though, is sedation, and we

584
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: can guarantee that they're not conscious for those things. Even

585
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: if the body has a reaction, they're not conscious for it.

586
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: And it requires consciousness to experience pain and suffering.

587
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: So I think that's a really important point. I have

588
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: a lot of owners that say, gosh, I would love

589
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: for my pet to just die naturally at home, and

590
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: I think what we know from humans is that that

591
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: can be a very terrible experience.

592
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: Uh, and it can be a very long experience. So

593
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 1: you know, death is an immediate, it's a phase, and

594
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: I have seen videos of because I would never allow

595
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: to continue, but I've seen like cats die of kidney failure.

596
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: The active dying process takes over three hours. That's so

597
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: it's not a quick and I'm done right, it's long.

598
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: You know. I lost my uncle three years ago and

599
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: it was you know, like the real act of dying

600
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: process was almost a whole day and that's a lot,

601
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: and we had him on morphine. We don't do that

602
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: in our pets, so I think everybody can tell I'm

603
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: pretty adamant about this. But getting back to euthanasia, because

604
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: that is where you know, it would be nice because

605
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: we can control things way better. We can control ninety

606
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of the situation. So most most

607
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: veterinarians and clinics will will give some lovely sedation before

608
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: the final medication, and that's great if we end it

609
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: is not medically necessary at all, but it is really

610
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: nice for owners to see their pets just sleeping beforehand.

611
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: It kind of sets the room for being peaceful. And

612
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 1: for those that may not want to be present, I

613
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: do encourage them to be present, just at least for

614
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: that and once your pet is sedated, I understand. I

615
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: totally understand when people don't want to be present. I

616
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of stigma about those that don't

617
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: want to be present, and they get almost guilted into it,

618
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: like your pet's looking for you and stuff, like your

619
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: pet's always looking for you from day one, right, like

620
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: they're always going to So don't think it's because of

621
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: this that they're scared. So but at least maybe stay

622
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: for the sedation. And did you know that the last

623
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: sense to go is the sense of hearing, so you

624
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: could just be speaking to your pet. They hear that

625
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: until the end, like that's amazing. And then the second medication.

626
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: What a lot of people then think is that we're

627
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: stopping the heart, and we're not. We're actually stopping the brain.

628
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: It's simply an overdose of anesthesias, so we stopped the brain.

629
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: The brain is an amazing order. It controls everything, and

630
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: so when that slows down and is gone, and everything

631
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 1: else follows and it's extremely peaceful. And you know, some

632
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: of the reactions people see are really just energy leading

633
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: the bodies. So if we see muscles tremor and stuff

634
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: like that, that's just that's just energy leaving. If we

635
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: see what we call an agonal breath, which is just

636
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: actually the diaphragm relaxing, which is a muscle and that

637
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: that forces air out and it just it looks like

638
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: a breath, so people get scared, But those things actually

639
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: rarely happen. It's only about three percent that that happens.

640
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: The only thing I actually prepare owners for when the

641
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: euthanasia is happening is that they won't close their eyes.

642
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: And I can't stand out about you. But when I

643
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: see it in the movies when the eyes close, I'm like, yeah,

644
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: they like push the other I'm like, that doesn't happen.

645
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not real.

646
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: And you're and you're making my job hard because people

647
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: are expecting that, and they'll sit there and try to

648
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: do that. So I always prepare for that because that

649
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: happens one hundred percent of the time, and they may

650
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: relax their bladder and and you know, go to the

651
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: bathroom number two as well. So I like to prepare

652
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: that because you know, everything relaxes and that could be

653
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: upsetting to some people. But all the other stuff I

654
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: don't even prepare owners for. It's like, if it happens,

655
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: we talk about it.

656
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's very far in few between the other stuff.

657
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

658
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: I really like how you said it's okay if you

659
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: don't want to be present for the actual act of

660
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: youth in Asia itself. I think it is such a

661
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: personal preference. I do think it's, like you said, important

662
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: for me for you to be there while they're self conscious.

663
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: I think like it's part of our responsibility as pet

664
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 2: owners to be there for them. But once they're unconscious

665
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: and they've had that sedation, I think if that's not

666
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: something that you want to be a part of, but

667
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: that is okay. And I certainly don't want anyone to

668
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: ever feel like, oh my gosh, I have to be

669
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: here because people on the internet are going to shame

670
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: me because people are very about it.

671
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: I I can't stand that shame. And you know what

672
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: if if you even can't even be present for this,

673
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: which I really like want people to do because because

674
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: I think it's so good not just for the pet,

675
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: but for you enclosure, Like I promise you to do that.

676
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: It's so helpful when you don't know and you dropped

677
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: off your pet and you've got the will that could

678
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: haunt you. But but everybody should know at the vet clinic,

679
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: we love on your pet. Yeah, you know, we love

680
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: on them. We give them treats, we give them sedation,

681
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: we give all those things and the team will love

682
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: up on them. So so don't feel guilty because it's

683
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: not like we were just like, oh, that was a

684
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: drop off, so we're not going to do it well

685
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: like that's I used to work at a shelter. We

686
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: loved up on all of them. And I there was

687
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: a wonderful director of our shelter, doctor Sarah Pizzano. And

688
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: this is when I before I became a VETS. This

689
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: is early two thousands, and so I was making the

690
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: surgery packs and whatever, and I would hear this voice

691
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: down this long hallway. Here's what Wait, wait wait, I'm like,

692
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: who is that? And doctor Sarah Pizzano every dog that

693
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: walked past her office to go get you because we

694
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: because even though we were quote a no kill shelter,

695
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: pets were euthanized because of sickness or behavior. Way I'd

696
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: hear and every pet she'd say, high, handsome boy, Hi,

697
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: beautiful angel. And she loved up literally on every single

698
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: dog that walked past her room to go to euthanasia.

699
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 1: And it was just such a sweet thing to see

700
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: that I'll never And so every pet I walk into

701
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: a home, I say that, hey, handsome boy, high beautiful angel,

702
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: and love up on them. And if families, I'll go

703
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: to homes. It's rare, but I've gone to homes where

704
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: they want me there. But they're going to step outside,

705
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: they're going to go to the backyard. They don't want

706
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: to be present. For that euthanasia, and I support that decision.

707
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: And then afterwards I want them to come back in

708
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: and we make paw prince and we love up on

709
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: them and things like that. But it's it's hard. I

710
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: watched my uncle passing and it's.

711
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: Hard, really hard to watch. It's really hard. And the

712
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: last thing you want to feel is that some outsiders

713
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: judging you. So I think it's yeah, have to do No.

714
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: I think I think shame on us if we judge them.

715
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: That's where I think shame should be. And I'm really

716
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: adamant about that because I've had a family member who

717
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: couldn't be present at all and she's like, I just

718
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: I need to stay at work. I don't want to

719
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: think about it, and no problem, I will. I will

720
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: make sure she's got a good goodbye in my hands,

721
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: and that is my oath to them. So so anyway,

722
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: that's I'm glad we talked about that, because that is

723
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: a it is a big topic, or there's just one

724
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: that I see creep in and I don't like it.

725
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, me either. I think one thing I'm sure

726
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 2: you have gotten this many times is people will always

727
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: say to me when I was little, I really wanted

728
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: to be a veterinarian, but I could never ethanize a pet,

729
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: like I just could never do that. And so to that,

730
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: I say, well, that's not my entire job. But when

731
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: I do, when I do have to euthanize a pet,

732
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: it's very much a privilege for me where I'm preventing

733
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: them from suffering. I I'm not doing it unless I

734
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: feel one hundred percent that I'm doing the right thing

735
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 2: for the animal. And so I definitely feel the weight

736
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: the responsibility of it, but again the privilege, and it's

737
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: just part of taking care of them.

738
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: It's so it's so so true. I am. I own

739
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: I own a crematory also pet crematory. So I'm a

740
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: little unique, right. And so today we had a new

741
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: a new employee that I was I was talking to

742
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: and she said that exact thing to me. She's like,

743
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: I could never do it, but so at least I'm

744
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: still helping. I'm doing this like she's working at the crematory.

745
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: It's just that final thing is really hard for people,

746
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: and I don't see it that way. And I actually

747
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: do that for a living. That is all that I do, right, So,

748
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: like you think i'd be crying all day long. I

749
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: do actually cry a lot, but because I see them,

750
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: I see families that love their pets. How joyous is

751
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: that to see families see pets that they're loved so

752
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: much that the owners were sleeping in the living room

753
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: for weeks, that they were handmaking food, you know, all

754
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: the time, that they set up a party, a goodbye

755
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: party that they they read. I've been to you know

756
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: where Jewish prayers are are read to their pet. Like,

757
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: so the same cultural things that we do for our humans,

758
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: they're doing for pet like it's beautiful and to help

759
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: us share that petet to the next stage and do

760
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: it well, like I'm love. I love helping, and that's

761
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: what we can do. We became vets to help animals,

762
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: and it's not always to save them, and it is

763
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: it can be hard when it's not done well. So

764
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: I'll say that right like one hundred percent. And when

765
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: I worked in that shelter, we still did it well.

766
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I took away from that,

767
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: and that was twenty plus years ago, was sedation because

768
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: in the shelter we didn't sedate, and so it was

769
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: very hard for me to be speaking to a pet right,

770
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: a dog while it's wagon its tail and licking my face,

771
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: let's say, right, but I know it's got a pretty

772
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: severe disease whatever, and I have to uth andite without sedation.

773
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: That was hard. So that's hard for me. So our

774
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: shelter bets I give them a lot of kudos. But anyway,

775
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: but when you can make it beautiful and a family

776
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: is so grateful to you, and you know, we get

777
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: the best hugs and things like that. But I remember

778
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: this one time. I always say I go into homes

779
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: as the angel of death and I just leave the

780
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: angel because they're just so amazed at at what the

781
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: processes can be. And and you know, I also feel

782
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: there's a bit of relief to families afterwards, yes, and

783
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: they're shocked at that. And then sometimes like ohh and

784
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of and this might seem crazy

785
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: that I'm going to give this analogy, but it's sort

786
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: of like if you've ever been nauseous and you have

787
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: to vomit, right, you know, you know I'm got to

788
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: do it. It's coming, and you know you'll feel better after,

789
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 1: like you just don't want to do it. So you've

790
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: got this time where you're like, and you were avoiding

791
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: it and then you do it, and then after you're like, Okay,

792
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm better, and you know, I don't mean to minimalize

793
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: what we do, but it's very much like that.

794
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, no, that really sucked, but now I'm feeling

795
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 2: a little bit better.

796
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: I'm feeling better. I know my dog. I like they

797
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: you always missed your pet, but now you know your

798
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: pet isn't struggling, and you know your pet is not

799
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: dealing with these diseases, and you know your pet's okay

800
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: wherever that may be. And so I think that's sometimes helpful.

801
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: And I do think people will say goodbye the first time,

802
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: usually too late. It's the second and third time where

803
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: they are like they've learned from that and they said, no, no,

804
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to let that happen. So you know

805
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: it is I want to say, you know, the more

806
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: time you do it, the better, But it's not that

807
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: it's better, you manage it better.

808
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. I mean, no one writes you a rule

809
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: book on these kinds of things. So with experience, you

810
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: definitely learned to manage it better, for sure, totally, Yes,

811
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: for sure. I mean even as a veterinarian I really

812
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: had to have my husband be like, listen, I think

813
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: it's time, let's do it before it gets worse. And

814
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 2: I am like, yeah, I'm a veterineery and I'm very

815
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 2: objective in my thinking, but all all common logical thought

816
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: goes out the window.

817
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: We I am the mayor of Denial Island myself when

818
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: it comes to my own like, I am just and

819
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: I am the queen of quality of life assessment, I think, right,

820
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: the self proclaimed queen of it. And it's still when

821
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: you're a mom or a dad or what like, you know,

822
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: pet owner whatever, like this so hard because we want

823
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: every single day. You know, I always say it's never

824
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: long enough and one more day, but I want to

825
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: make sure that one more day isn't a bad day.

826
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's not. And it just becomes about us and

827
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: not them. Yeah, So what any resources anything you recommend

828
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: for owners after euthanasia. I know I of Love has

829
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: some resources, any support, yes, so.

830
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: Listen, if there's a good local support group and a

831
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: lot of people can just you know, search for that.

832
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: But we do at Lack of Love. We do have

833
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: a pet loss support group, which is amazing. So we

834
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: do every single day. We have a virtual support group,

835
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: which is completely free to anyone anywhere who's lost a pet.

836
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 1: We've got people from Asia that log in from Brazil

837
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: and if you've lost a pet, you can go every

838
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: day and it spree. So there's those. Then if you

839
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: want a little bit one on one with somebody that

840
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: can help you through some of the grieving process, we

841
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: do have a one on one session, which I think

842
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: is maybe fifty dollars for an hour or something like that.

843
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: It's not a lot. But we also have some specialized

844
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: groups where we talk about children in grief, men in grief,

845
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: cat owners, anticipatory grief. So we've got some specialized groups

846
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: which is kind of, you know, really interesting, and we're

847
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: working on more and more and so I think that's

848
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: really helpful for families. And then we also have a course,

849
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: a six week course to help people manage through this

850
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: whole grieving process. And I've made even activity books for

851
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: kids called Forever Friend and you can get them on Amazon,

852
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: and they're because I think children and grief is tough

853
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: for moms and dads, like they don't know how to

854
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: talk about it. Yeah, and so my activity book kind

855
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: of goes through some stuff where we could talk about

856
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: passing or you know, and it's not just after. We

857
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: need to help them before. And that's everybody, not just kids, right,

858
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: So pat loss isn't always just after. So it comes

859
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: because of that anticipation.

860
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think for all the listeners out there,

861
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: I know I felt really sad for a very long time.

862
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: But the first few months the grief is can be overwhelming,

863
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: and sometimes you might even feel a little like silly

864
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: when you're telling people like, oh, I'm sad because I

865
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: lost my dog. And maybe not everyone's a dog person

866
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: and they may not fully understand, but people with animals,

867
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: I find they will say to me, I was more

868
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 2: sad and I lost my pet and when my grandma

869
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: passed away or then my aunt died, and it's just

870
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 2: they are like our children. And so if you're feeling

871
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: that extreme grief, you are not alone totally.

872
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: That they call it disenfranchised grief when Simon says, oh,

873
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: it's just a cat, right, and no, no, that was

874
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: my herbie. I actually I was. I am what they

875
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: call second year veterinarian, a second year a second career veterinarian,

876
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: and so I was ten years in the software industry,

877
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: and it was the death of my own dog that

878
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: I when I was in grief, I decided to go

879
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: back to vet school, so I like, so I know

880
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: firsthand that grief can really impact your life, so much

881
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: so that I left a really good career became a

882
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 1: veterinarian in my thirties. So I'm you know, I believe

883
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: that pet that, you know, my first one that I lost,

884
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: snow White, you know she's watching over me, and know

885
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: that you know I've done I've done well because I've

886
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: I've taken that experience now you know, have come twenty

887
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: years later helping others.

888
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, full circle, full circle. Yeah, that's amazing. What was

889
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: Snowed a dog or a cat?

890
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: She was a dog. She was a samoid.

891
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 2: Love They're great, They're great.

892
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: They're so not common. And then I got a second

893
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: samoid and uh and then I'm a I'm a Doberman

894
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: lover too, but the best, the best are just good

895
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: old mutts right.

896
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 2: Them. I love it. Well, this is great. Thank you

897
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: so much. I know it's not the easiest of subjects

898
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 2: to talk about, but I feel like with all your

899
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: experience and what you've done, you know with these subjects,

900
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: has been really helpful, and I and it's important to

901
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: talk about and have an open conversation, and I'm sure

902
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: our listeners will, We'll get a lot from it. So

903
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: I thank you for going on.

904
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: You're very welcome.