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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Turning Out of Facebook,

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook CEO has been the subject of withering

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Speaker 1: criticism from Democratic and Republican members of Congress, from privacy advocates,

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Speaker 1: and from the public over yet another privacy crisis, revelations

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Speaker 1: that political consulting firm Cambridge Analytica harvested data from about

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Speaker 1: fifty million Facebook users without their knowledge. The FTC took

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Speaker 1: the unusual step this week of confirming it's investigating Facebook

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Speaker 1: over whether the social media company violated the terms of

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Speaker 1: consent decree. The pressure on Facebook has led Zuckerberg to

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Speaker 1: agree to testify before Congress, according to an official familiar

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Speaker 1: with the plan. My guest is Woodrow Heart, sog, professor

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Speaker 1: at Northeastern University Law School. Would you let's start with

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Speaker 1: the consent decree? What did Facebook agree to in that decree?

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Speaker 1: And did its deal with Cambridge Analytic Analytica violate that decree.

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Speaker 1: So the consent decree was pretty standard, and that's the

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Speaker 1: Facebook promise not to do things like make privacy misstatements,

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Speaker 1: to get consent for certain kinds of non public uses,

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Speaker 1: and to engage in a comprehensive privacy program. To create

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Speaker 1: comprehensive privacy program. Um, it's not clear actually whether Cambridge

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Speaker 1: and the Cambridge Analytica incident violated any of the actual

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Speaker 1: terms of the consent order. So let's talk about Zuckerberg.

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Speaker 1: He announced steps the company would take to better protect

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Speaker 1: users data and on Wednesday announced a new privacy shortcut

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Speaker 1: menu on mobile devices. Do those address the real privacy

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Speaker 1: concerns of the public. Uh, My fear is that it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: So we've seen this story play out a few times

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Speaker 1: before where there's a privacy incidents, there's a sincere apology

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Speaker 1: and then followed by some sort of rollout of new

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Speaker 1: privacy tools. But the privacy tools still don't solve the

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Speaker 1: root problem, which is the incentive for companies to extract

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Speaker 1: as much data as possible out of people. And really,

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Speaker 1: what the privacy tools do is they placed the burden

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Speaker 1: of protection onto the user, and that even if the

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Speaker 1: privacy tools are better it still doesn't solve some of

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Speaker 1: the deeper questions we have about the risk in using

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Speaker 1: these these platforms that that take away so much data

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Speaker 1: um and so it seems to me that this is

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Speaker 1: my fear, is that this is going to be a

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Speaker 1: cosmetic fix rather than a real meaningful, subsidi fix. They've

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Speaker 1: all been cosmetic fixes. Is it that privacy just doesn't

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Speaker 1: fit in with the business model of Facebook. Facebook's handling

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Speaker 1: of users personal information is part of how it gains revenue.

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Speaker 1: So can we really ever expect fundamental changes to that? Sure?

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Speaker 1: I don't think we can expect fundamental changes without some

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Speaker 1: sort of significant policy change, because you're exactly right that

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Speaker 1: that Facebook's business incentive is to have us keep sharing early,

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Speaker 1: have us keep sharing often, and to have us try

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Speaker 1: and feel as good about it as possible, which is

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Speaker 1: what I think the privacy settings are meant to help

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Speaker 1: us do. What we need is actually a much more

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Speaker 1: substantive discussion about how to limit not just the collection

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Speaker 1: of data, the the misuse of data on these platforms.

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Speaker 1: And to do that, we're going to have to have

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Speaker 1: a serious conversation about changing the data protection and privacy

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Speaker 1: laws in the United States. Because right now, um, they're

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Speaker 1: they're actually relatively limited compared to other sorts of regimes.

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Speaker 1: What can the FTC do? It seems as if that

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Speaker 1: twenty year consent decree really hasn't been very effective. Can

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Speaker 1: the FTC do something or enforce something against Facebook before

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Speaker 1: we actually get privacy laws which may be a long

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Speaker 1: time coming. Sure, so the FTC is limited its ability

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Speaker 1: to regulate here. The consent order was meant to address

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Speaker 1: a very specific kind of problem that that had to

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Speaker 1: do with deceptive trade practices. Um. But to ask it

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Speaker 1: to sort of police the entire data ecosystem and Facebook

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Speaker 1: as a platform is just a really tall order for

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Speaker 1: something is as uh as constrained as a consent order.

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Speaker 1: And so, uh, the the FTC actually needs better powers

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Speaker 1: because the only reason that it's even regulating privacy and

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Speaker 1: data security in the first place is because it stepped

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Speaker 1: in to fill the void um that really should have

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Speaker 1: been filled probably by a data protection authority, dedicated data

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Speaker 1: protection authority. Now the FTC with increased powers might be

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Speaker 1: able to serve in that role, but right now it's

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Speaker 1: it's simply sort of doing the thing, uh that serving

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Speaker 1: as a privacy regulator in the United States, because no

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Speaker 1: other agency had the powers to do it, and so

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Speaker 1: it's not exactly an ideal fit for regulating these massive

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Speaker 1: data platforms. We need some sort of legislation to pass

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Speaker 1: to either embold in the FTC or some sort of national,

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Speaker 1: uh broad privacy law that applied throughout, rather than the

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Speaker 1: sort of splotchy areas of privacy law that we have

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Speaker 1: right now. Zuckerberg has never testified before Congress. He's usually

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Speaker 1: in complete control of his public appearances. How important will

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Speaker 1: his testimony be to the company. Oh, I think it's

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Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly important. I think that should not

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Speaker 1: just watch what the testimony is like. But the really

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Speaker 1: important thing to watch is what happened after the testimony,

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Speaker 1: because right now we're seeing a ground fell of support

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Speaker 1: for some sort of movement on national privacy policy, and

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Speaker 1: it will be interesting to see whether the testimony moves

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Speaker 1: that needle more towards finding a more national privacy law,

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Speaker 1: or whether it's sort of mitigates some of the rhetoric

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Speaker 1: and passion that we've seen around this topic right now

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Speaker 1: and so uh and so this could be a real

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Speaker 1: inflection points in a larger debate that's already more heated

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Speaker 1: than we've seen in the past couple of years around

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Speaker 1: data protection and privacy. So we've seen now the hashtag

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Speaker 1: delete Facebook, and as you say, a more heated discussion.

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Speaker 1: But in the end, is Facebook the only game in town,

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Speaker 1: and so people are going to go back to it

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Speaker 1: if they want to have communications with you know, their

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Speaker 1: friends and family, etcetera. We have about forty five seconds here, sure,

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Speaker 1: So I've seen a lot of discussion about, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: if you don't like it, just to lead your Facebook account.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think that's the answer because it views

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Speaker 1: privacy and individual choice as though we're the ones in

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Speaker 1: power here. But we're not. Right, a lot of these things,

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Speaker 1: these software programs, we depend upon, and so we need

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Speaker 1: a we need a more holistic push and a greater

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Speaker 1: movement rather than just exercising individual choice. That we still

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Speaker 1: have about twenty seconds. So how many how many years

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Speaker 1: do you think that it will take before we get

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Speaker 1: to that point where we have laws. Well, it all

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Speaker 1: depends on what will happen within I think the next

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Speaker 1: five is in uh month to see whether we're get

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Speaker 1: any sort of moving on the policy. Flint, Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. That's Woodrow Heart Suck, Professor at Northeastern University

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Speaker 1: Law School. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Grosso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg m