Speaker 1: The Quest Loft Show is a production of iHeart Radio,
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. This is the Quest Love Show. Of course,
Speaker 1: if you've been here for the last almost ten years,
Speaker 1: you know that I was born in a musical household.
Speaker 1: I was destined the falling over the craft. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I had a choice in the matter. While
Speaker 1: the kids were reading Doctor Seuss, I was immersing myself
Speaker 1: in liner notes, judging typography, label logos and all those things,
Speaker 1: and of course graduated later to absorbing everything from periodicals,
Speaker 1: anything that I could get my hands on. In terms
Speaker 1: of journalism music journalism, specifically, our Guest Today, I would say,
Speaker 1: is the original influencer. He gave us me. Specifically, he
Speaker 1: gave some of the first critical looks at hip hop music,
Speaker 1: which you weren't getting in the fanzines that I was
Speaker 1: reading at the time. So to see hip hop treated
Speaker 1: with such a serious kind of in a serious scope,
Speaker 1: that was the first time for me, and it made
Speaker 1: an impression, not to mention growing up in the early
Speaker 1: eighties as a ten year old, eleven year old seeing
Speaker 1: serious record reviews by artists I loved, like Prince. Our
Speaker 1: Guest Today sort of was the bridge and the introduction
Speaker 1: to my falling into that world that I bring up
Speaker 1: every time I'm on the show, not to mention other
Speaker 1: landmark recordings like Pink Floyd. People know that idrned Rolling
Speaker 1: Stone reviews like on my childhood bedroom wall and study
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, I told you scary. But anyway, I
Speaker 1: will say that many of us know him also as
Speaker 1: the trusted voice in music journalism. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: hyper bowl at all to say that he's the Walter
Speaker 1: Cronkite of music journalism. He's broken out many a story.
Speaker 1: He was the voice I heard when Big Year Tupac
Speaker 1: passed away. He was the voice. I will say that
Speaker 1: the steps that led me here to this moment I've
Speaker 1: shared many a time of the roots reaction to Kirk
Speaker 1: Cobane's untimely demise, and it really starts with hearing his
Speaker 1: voice announce this news. I know that introduction shouldn't be
Speaker 1: this long, but you know I'm big given flowers. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to be talking to Kirk Gloder right now.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the question. Great to see. How are you okay?
Speaker 2: You know I lived in Philly for a while and
Speaker 2: your father's big hit was like the national anthem of Philadelphia,
Speaker 2: tear drops. Yeah, it was just it was played everywhere
Speaker 2: every day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know that you went to Temple. I did.
Speaker 1: When did you go to Temple University.
Speaker 2: A thousand years ago? It was like nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 1: Wow, I was mind blown. Like, what were your observations
Speaker 1: of Philly? I often don't hear it's weird. Like my father,
Speaker 1: I never thought to ask him about what the sixties
Speaker 1: were like in Philly, but musically, like, what were your
Speaker 1: observations it was?
Speaker 2: You know, I was a big dua fan, so phid
Speaker 2: healthy was like the duop capital, one of them. And
Speaker 2: there's so many great records are made there, so many.
Speaker 1: So were you always a record guy all your life
Speaker 1: or didn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the music meet you or now the music didn't
Speaker 2: meet me. No, I always was, and it was great
Speaker 2: to be in Philly because that's where you know. Today's
Speaker 2: the Day by Maureen Gray, came from Puppy Love by
Speaker 2: Little Jimmy Rivers. I love all that stuff. I have
Speaker 2: those records.
Speaker 1: Wow, I love that you know that history. What was
Speaker 1: your first musical memory in life?
Speaker 2: I think the first thing I heard there was in
Speaker 2: the early fifties, there was a song called Abba Daba Honeymoon.
Speaker 2: It was the first stupid song I ever heard. And
Speaker 2: I'm convinced that great music can have stupid words. As
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan says, the words are misleading because the song
Speaker 2: is not the words. The song is the music. So
Speaker 2: there was that and Theymoon, Debbie Reynolds and Carlton and
Speaker 2: Carpenter whoever he is, and it was.
Speaker 1: Wait, is that I know this? Yeah? I thought, I yeah,
Speaker 1: I recalled hearing it. I just don't know specifically where.
Speaker 2: That's enough, Okay, you don't have to hear more.
Speaker 1: What was the first single that you purchased with your
Speaker 1: own money?
Speaker 2: And one of the first ones that my brother gave
Speaker 2: me a dollar to go down and get this Elvis
Speaker 2: Presley record. It was like all the rage and it
Speaker 2: was it was hound Dog and records were a dollar. Oh,
Speaker 2: by the way, what's I grew up on the Jersey Shore,
Speaker 2: Ocean City, New Jersey, very close to Philadelphia. Okay, okay,
Speaker 2: so when you talked about going to the city, it
Speaker 2: would be Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: Do you remember the first concert you ever attended?
Speaker 2: Actually, no, I don't. It was like lots of there
Speaker 2: were lots of little like local bands, bar bands. I
Speaker 2: mean that's the first live music I saw.
Speaker 1: As far as your childhood home is concerned, like what
Speaker 1: was your house looking like? Like your parents? What did
Speaker 1: they do?
Speaker 2: My father was a house pinner, my mother was an accountant.
Speaker 2: You know, it was like a where I grew up
Speaker 2: as like an Aymark Berman movie. It was very cold
Speaker 2: in the summer and in the winter it was just
Speaker 2: windswept beaches and loneliness. You know, it's a sad story.
Speaker 1: Well, as a child or coming up, what were your
Speaker 1: aspirations and dreams, Like did you want to have something
Speaker 1: to do with the music business or writing about entertainment
Speaker 1: or did you have other dreams?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know where I lived, just all
Speaker 2: the stuff you would see about entertainment and music and
Speaker 2: movie was you just wanted to get out of where
Speaker 2: you were. So you just wish you could get out
Speaker 2: to this wherever this was. It's like magic land. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I always think about that.
Speaker 1: Do you remember your very first writing assignment or the
Speaker 1: first thing that you wrote about creatively about music or entertainment.
Speaker 2: I was in the Army and I worked for an
Speaker 2: Army newspaper and at a hospital. Actually it's a long,
Speaker 2: boring story, but I started writing there like on a deadline,
Speaker 2: which is something you should really learn. And then after
Speaker 2: I got out of the army, I stayed in Germany
Speaker 2: where I was and wrote for a newspaper that covered
Speaker 2: rock and Rollax, So I go and do Jennie Choplin.
Speaker 2: This is that period, you do all these and Captain
Speaker 2: Beefart and so that was. That was a ton of fun.
Speaker 2: That time was like the late sixties early seventies. Did
Speaker 2: a lot of things I shouldn't have been doing, but
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 1: That's the journey in life, you know. I know that
Speaker 1: I came of age when air quote serious journalism in
Speaker 1: music at least like was a thing. But I know
Speaker 1: that at some point in history it wasn't. I mean,
Speaker 1: am I wrong to assume that with Rolling Stone in
Speaker 1: sixty seven, like that was the beginning of Hey, let's
Speaker 1: treat this culture asked something serious? Like before in your recollection,
Speaker 1: was there anyone that spoke seriously of this being an
Speaker 1: art or you know they treated the Beatles like high art.
Speaker 2: Or I think you know Ralph Gleason in San Francisco
Speaker 2: was a guy who took it all seriously. And he
Speaker 2: was a friend of Jan Winter who started Rolling Stone.
Speaker 2: And Yon's thing was ap and real news places. Why
Speaker 2: not it was real news. And then at the when
Speaker 2: there were some things that come up and make your
Speaker 2: friends look bad or in the business, but he was
Speaker 2: adamant about that. I said, this guy did something bad.
Speaker 2: We have to you know, we have to put that
Speaker 2: in there. And Ya was all this, he's responsible. I
Speaker 2: think for a more serious approach to popular music.
Speaker 1: The integrity of it all. Yeah, the seriousness. What is
Speaker 1: the true definition of what a music journalist should be.
Speaker 2: You should between the music business like life, or musicians
Speaker 2: like life. They're people like everybody else, much more talented sometimes.
Speaker 2: And you should know the business. You should be able
Speaker 2: to cover the business, because I think the business is fascinating.
Speaker 2: The guys that rose up to start independent record companies
Speaker 2: in America were all like all Jewish guys who are
Speaker 2: like from families that were tailors or something. They said,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this this thing. I'm going to
Speaker 2: start a record label. And they would do it. During
Speaker 2: the war when there was a shortage of vinyl, they
Speaker 2: would tear up linoleum from floors and meld it down
Speaker 2: to make a records. I mean, yeah, it's just incredible.
Speaker 2: Tiber Harri told me that from modern records, and you think, wow,
Speaker 2: they do anything to do it, and they made records
Speaker 2: of people that would never have gotten records made, you know,
Speaker 2: or just music with them today is brilliant. But at
Speaker 2: the time they would just get screwed over by the business.
Speaker 1: All right. So now that the smoke is clear, and
Speaker 1: when I'm saying the smoke is cleared, I think oftentimes
Speaker 1: when a phenomenon happens, and especially now like in the
Speaker 1: social media of it all, I see a bunch of
Speaker 1: people just rushing to prey, like an alum will come
Speaker 1: out and then instantly like a masterpiece. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like sixty seconds old. But also as much as the
Speaker 1: folklore and the lore of a Lester Bangs type for
Speaker 1: those that are googling right now Lester Bangs, you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of the storied. Well do you explain, like
Speaker 1: who Lester Bangs was?
Speaker 2: For Lester's sort of the archetype of the hard living,
Speaker 2: hard drinking music journalist. And he wrote in a sort
Speaker 2: of free form way, and he write over and over.
Speaker 2: He wrote a book and like oh, we or something
Speaker 2: a blonde I think it was a blondie book. And
Speaker 2: he would just churn out stuff and it would be everywhere,
Speaker 2: and he was a real character on the scene.
Speaker 1: Now for like journalist circles and writers, was it received
Speaker 1: as man from Heaven or was it sort of like
Speaker 1: how I looked at Old Dirty Bastard and Wu Tang
Speaker 1: Like there's different levels of mcs and the Wu Tang clan.
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, there's there's different tiers of degrees
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: But I don't think many writers got Math from Heaven.
Speaker 2: They were always complaining about what they were getting paid.
Speaker 2: But yes, just bring around people like that. I mean,
Speaker 2: old Dirty Bastard, what a great individual, you know, what
Speaker 2: a great America.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not even I'm not dismissing it, but
Speaker 1: I think at one point, like the way that the
Speaker 1: idea of Lester Bangs is, you know, his kamikaze sort
Speaker 1: of hunting, as Thompson esk. You never know what he's
Speaker 1: going to write, But like, did he help the cause
Speaker 1: or did he hurt in the long run? Because I
Speaker 1: think I know journal simply because other writers would talk
Speaker 1: about Lester Bangs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well I think people would want to be
Speaker 2: like Lester without knowing him. When I first got to
Speaker 2: New York, I went to a show at town Hall.
Speaker 2: It was Sandy Bull and probably don't remember him, do you. No,
Speaker 2: he's like an ood player. And Lester was there how many.
Speaker 2: There were no other people there. It was just him
Speaker 2: and me and I don't know who else. So he
Speaker 2: would go to everything, and at that time in New York,
Speaker 2: you would go to everything. There's so much stuff. And
Speaker 2: Lester would stay up for forever, drinking in cough syrup
Speaker 2: because he wasn't a druggy. He's a romo ar guy
Speaker 2: and beers, and you see all these guys hanging out
Speaker 2: and there the rock critics. He's seeing the bars like
Speaker 2: bells of hell, just sitting there with their head back
Speaker 2: because they were just wasted. And then they get up
Speaker 2: and write stuff and it would come out and it
Speaker 2: would be funny. I mean, lest your stuff was very funny.
Speaker 1: You're familiar with the joke of the ouristic crats, right,
Speaker 1: with the heristic all right, So in journalism, like, is
Speaker 1: there a journalist version of that? I'll give you an example.
Speaker 1: Probably the most famous Pitchfork review that I know is
Speaker 1: and I love the way that you're here. Your eyebrows
Speaker 1: was so tricker, like so triggered that that's just everything.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Like, Probably Pitchfork's most famous review was an album by Jet,
Speaker 1: of which I think the writer did a jiff of
Speaker 1: I believe a gorilla taking a piss and defecating all
Speaker 1: over the place. And the album I Think God is
Speaker 1: zero point one, of which I think in ninety someone
Speaker 1: gave I think I don't know if it's Frick or
Speaker 1: not or Wild gave Andrew originally like a half.
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna argue with that.
Speaker 1: No, no, No, That's the thing though, because it's like,
Speaker 1: at some point I'm like, is this the aristocrats? Are
Speaker 1: you writing as a journalist? Are you like, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: hold my beer, check this out. Do writers often have that,
Speaker 1: like if you know you're going to pan an artist
Speaker 1: or whatever, like in a review, like you're going to
Speaker 1: go to town on it just to impress like a certable.
Speaker 1: Do people mostly do that?
Speaker 2: Or I don't think that? So I think I think
Speaker 2: a lot of writers at that time when I was
Speaker 2: doing it, hanging out together. So opinions tend to homogenize,
Speaker 2: I think. And one of the most famous miss aimed
Speaker 2: reviews was Robert chris Kau Is it Mona Ray? I
Speaker 2: don't know when Jimmy Hendricks first played here. He saw
Speaker 2: Hendricks live and he called him a psychedelic Uncle Tom,
Speaker 2: and people were just going what people who heard the records?
Speaker 2: He said what? And since then, you know, Christy said that, yeah,
Speaker 2: well he's you know, the live album came out from
Speaker 2: that gig and it's not Jimmy's best and that's what
Speaker 2: he's saying. That's what. I just didn't think he deserved
Speaker 2: all the hype. And there was somebody that who was
Speaker 2: another Rolling Stone guy said Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club
Speaker 2: band sucked and not my favorite Beatles are either, So
Speaker 2: I understand why not?
Speaker 1: Are you way over time? Is what is all? So?
Speaker 1: What's your your beat? You save one album and the
Speaker 1: rest of fall in the fire? Which one are you saving?
Speaker 2: I can never answer that. I mean every Beatles album
Speaker 2: before Sergeant Pepper. I think it was kind of interesting.
Speaker 2: They were doing stuff well. I think when the Beatles
Speaker 2: came along, I just listened to it. I played music
Speaker 2: a little bit, and you could tell that there were
Speaker 2: so many chords in the in these songs. You said, Wow,
Speaker 2: they're doing doing all these chords, but it's still like
Speaker 2: a rock song. They were just so brilliant and it
Speaker 2: was it was exciting to be alive and to hear
Speaker 2: that stuff.
Speaker 1: So you were impressed in real time when they were
Speaker 1: presenting art like this post timpan Alley meets show Tunes
Speaker 1: and the Beatles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well up to a point. I mean, most of
Speaker 2: it's hard to say the Beatles are anything bad because
Speaker 2: they didn't really do anything bad. When they're doing like
Speaker 2: Robert Rubber soul albums like that, it was something new
Speaker 2: was happening, somebody knew was happening in music. It was
Speaker 2: just exciting to be there, excited to hear it.
Speaker 1: I just never heard someone's opinions on the Beatle that
Speaker 1: told me in real time what they thought of it,
Speaker 1: like of course, and this happens a lot, especially with
Speaker 1: like albums that are misunderstood, like I'm pretty certain that
Speaker 1: you know, pet Sounds is a great example, like in
Speaker 1: you know, twenty years later, oh my god, heard this,
Speaker 1: but back then it wasn't like that. So for you, like,
Speaker 1: do you remember in real time, like the reactions of
Speaker 1: albums that we now consider classic have been in different or.
Speaker 2: I think again, the great thing about the Beatles was
Speaker 2: they conquered the world. World. Everybody wanted to be them,
Speaker 2: everyonebody wanted to live that life, and it just they
Speaker 2: just made the world light up. He thought, well, this
Speaker 2: is what's possible, and I think it gave musicians a
Speaker 2: lot of hope to saying there's something can be done.
Speaker 1: So what are the steps that lead you to writing? Well, period,
Speaker 1: just in journalism, Like, did you start in music or
Speaker 1: did you just start traditionally?
Speaker 2: As I said, I worked for a paper in Germany
Speaker 2: doing stuff, so covering some pop music.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I'm sorry. In America, I.
Speaker 2: Worked for a kind of a throwaway newspaper doing nothing.
Speaker 2: It was really annoying. I hated that. So it was
Speaker 2: good to get to I worked for Circus in New York.
Speaker 2: It's good to write about music that you know, you
Speaker 2: grow up with, and you really feel like you know it,
Speaker 2: and you know who the people are and the music
Speaker 2: they've done, and how the music is marketed, you know
Speaker 2: where it comes from. It's all a fascinating story. It's
Speaker 2: like an assembly line. Well some of it.
Speaker 1: What year did you start at Circus?
Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy seven nights.
Speaker 1: Okay, so in the mid seventies once, like postmodern rock
Speaker 1: with modern rock is like at least twenty or ten
Speaker 1: years old, depending on what you know where you think
Speaker 1: its origins are. Could one make a good living.
Speaker 2: Writing yes, No, you can't make a good thing you're writing? No,
Speaker 2: not really. I mean if you're working for Rolling Stone,
Speaker 2: you don't complain a lot at the time, okay, because
Speaker 2: they pay you, but generally, I mean it was it
Speaker 2: was awful. You're getting a couple of dollars for record reviews.
Speaker 1: So even like writing a cover story, like wasn't enough
Speaker 1: to like would you have to have a second gig? Also,
Speaker 1: so like were a lot of people bartenders also at
Speaker 1: nighttime and then.
Speaker 2: A lot of people did that. They also lived in
Speaker 2: hobbles and they lived a diminished lifestyle. So it's not
Speaker 2: a way I would recommend trying to make a living
Speaker 2: and have a future. So it was difficult.
Speaker 1: Was Rolling Stone a hopeful destination for you or you
Speaker 1: just like whatever comes along, I'll take it.
Speaker 2: I mean that was as high as you can get
Speaker 2: rolling So at that time in New York it was
Speaker 2: you know, seventy seven, seventy eight is when punk rock
Speaker 2: was happening, and white punk rock and black punk rock
Speaker 2: was all happening, and it was just so exciting and
Speaker 2: there was so much to write about. It was like
Speaker 2: being in Liverpool when the Beatles were starting out, because
Speaker 2: you're you're hearing something new and it's not what the
Speaker 2: business has been and it was youthful, vigor and it
Speaker 2: was wild. Was one of us. So there was a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff to write about.
Speaker 1: So you were aware in real time that, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is a revolutionary moment that I'm with missing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, you go. I spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time at CBGB's and Max's, so it
Speaker 2: was like, if you go to CBGB's, you see bands
Speaker 2: that were like bar bands, but they had original material.
Speaker 2: So I love bar bands. I think they're great generally,
Speaker 2: and these were people came up in bars, but they
Speaker 2: were playing original material. It's like it was like magic
Speaker 2: bands you would not know about today, they're forgotten now,
Speaker 2: had a couple of good tunes.
Speaker 1: At least what established bands or established gods now did
Speaker 1: you see in the embryonic stage back then their first
Speaker 1: shows or them opening for someone.
Speaker 2: Bands today not today? Back then gods.
Speaker 1: What former gods did you see like as unknown acts
Speaker 1: in that period? Well, if you say CBGB's I think
Speaker 1: talking Hits at their start there.
Speaker 2: And yeah, so the Ramones a bunch of times. I
Speaker 2: mean all those acts were I love those I love
Speaker 2: the Ramones. And also, on the other hand, you're hearing
Speaker 2: like black punk, it was also equally exciting. It was
Speaker 2: equally amazing run DMC would come on with this Eddie Martinez,
Speaker 2: this kind of crunch guitarist. It was wild hearing that stuff.
Speaker 2: It had not been done and you knew something was
Speaker 2: changing and it did.
Speaker 1: Did you catch any like Baburines in their prime show?
Speaker 2: I saw them opening up for a band called the
Speaker 2: Tits from Boston. Okay, they were loading in as I
Speaker 2: was leaving it, but I saw them live. It was
Speaker 2: it was pretty lively ACKed.
Speaker 1: What would you say during that time period in the
Speaker 1: mid to late seventies, was a show with an artist
Speaker 1: that just blew your mind seeing it in real time.
Speaker 2: I was really impressed by Captain beef Heart live because
Speaker 2: what he was doing was sort of making your body
Speaker 2: move in a new way. His band was doing such
Speaker 2: strange stuff, and I mean, there's stuff something like that.
Speaker 2: Today is this group on Jean de Patrine, you know,
Speaker 2: those Canadian guys with a plaster of Paris noses.
Speaker 1: I've not heard of this. Oh well call him up,
Speaker 1: all right, that's something I should look out for.
Speaker 2: They're just they're pretty amazing because what they're doing is
Speaker 2: it's just two guys, a drum and a guitar that's
Speaker 2: heavily treated and they're playing loops. It's almost all loops
Speaker 2: and the guitar is triering them and the footballs. It's amazing, amazing,
Speaker 2: it's all instrumental that we're taking a look at.
Speaker 1: All right. Speaking of Bee for I did the SNL
Speaker 1: music documentary and so I'll say that, like before is
Speaker 1: untimely passing, Like you know, I got to know how
Speaker 1: well they're for is six or seven years now? I
Speaker 1: want a guy, Yeah see him and he would always
Speaker 1: have these crazy stories about and he told the story
Speaker 1: of you know, I asked him like, was there ever
Speaker 1: a time when an act didn't work on SNL like
Speaker 1: that you thought was going to be it? And you know,
Speaker 1: he talked about Miles Davis's comeback, which he was like
Speaker 1: that was a disaster for him. But his first answer
Speaker 1: was Captain Beefheart, and he put me hip to And
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that you review this doc at the
Speaker 1: radar station them, and I know that beef Heart did
Speaker 1: his first song was he did Astray Heart, And because
Speaker 1: it ended so abruptly, everybody's going on right, only twice
Speaker 1: on that show, like having watched literally all one thousand
Speaker 1: episodes to do this thing. Of course, you know, Shinead
Speaker 1: O'Connor is number one as far as like leaving the
Speaker 1: audience shocked into silence. But when Beefheart ends it, you know,
Speaker 1: at first I was watching, I was like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is really out there, and you know, I'm used to
Speaker 1: avant garde presentations or whatever. But when he stops the
Speaker 1: song and there's like six seconds of the deadliest silence
Speaker 1: going by, and this one guy in the balcony just
Speaker 1: yells shit. And but for half a second, there's a
Speaker 1: look on beef Heart's face that I know that got
Speaker 1: to him, Like it was such a just for half
Speaker 1: a second he showed like how heartbroken it was jarring,
Speaker 1: and then like it was like a small golf clap thing.
Speaker 1: But I mean I got into his music and I
Speaker 1: got obsessed with him.
Speaker 2: It's like how come, Especially as a drummer, I would
Speaker 2: imagine it's like WHOA.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just I don't know what it appealed to me.
Speaker 1: I mean I like weird things, but I always felt
Speaker 1: like it wasn't that weird where it couldn't catch on,
Speaker 1: Like Prince has done a lot of radical things and
Speaker 1: it's caught on. But is the journalist's role speaking of archetypes,
Speaker 1: like to know something inside or like I know something
Speaker 1: like highbrow, I know something that you don't that you
Speaker 1: commoners don't.
Speaker 2: Know oude I know, I hope not.
Speaker 1: You try.
Speaker 2: I think if you really like something, I think you
Speaker 2: try to show people why it's good or suggest why
Speaker 2: it might be good and why should maybe at least.
Speaker 1: Go hear it.
Speaker 2: Captain before it suffered mightily trying to get his music
Speaker 2: across and never really succeeded and never made it work.
Speaker 2: And he's just done some brilliant albums. I think they've
Speaker 2: been rediscovered, Like Johnny Rotten is a big Captain before.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of like punks realize what this
Speaker 2: is and now we look at it differently, and now
Speaker 2: we look at a lot of stuff differently.
Speaker 1: I would say probably Jack White was the one that
Speaker 1: really explained to me eloquently, like why you should like
Speaker 1: this is what you should pay attention to these songs,
Speaker 1: and then like they caught one. Can you walk me through?
Speaker 1: I'm trying not to make this sound story like your
Speaker 1: first week at Rolling Stone, like it like I'm here,
Speaker 1: like for you is just like where do I sit?
Speaker 1: But your first week there? I just want to know
Speaker 1: what the lay of the land is as far as
Speaker 1: like what meetings are, like, how all things get assigned.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people would get together in an editorial meeting, talk
Speaker 2: about what's going on. Somebody would volunteer to cover it.
Speaker 2: When I was there for like the first week I
Speaker 2: write our name, Charles M. Young showed up just back
Speaker 2: from London, just back from the punk scene, and he
Speaker 2: was dressing differently and sort of moving and talking differently.
Speaker 2: He met the clash, he met all those people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: well no, he didn't do that. He's a very cool guy.
Speaker 2: But he was there and had been there. It was like,
Speaker 2: you want to go up and touch him? He said,
Speaker 2: what's it like over there?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: And he got that story, And you'd have meetings and
Speaker 2: you decide said I'd like to do this, I'd like
Speaker 2: to do that, and you give it to the person
Speaker 2: that seemed best informed about it.
Speaker 1: Who's the person that decides, Okay, you will go cover
Speaker 1: da da da. You'll cover da da da, and you'll
Speaker 1: cover dada da.
Speaker 2: Oh, whoever the managing editor was, whoever the music editor was.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are things that Yan wouldn't really Yeah,
Speaker 2: is not a punk fan, but and he didn't really
Speaker 2: want to have the sexphistles on the cover of Rolling Stone,
Speaker 2: but he allowed it to go. He said, yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 1: He understood the value.
Speaker 2: He knows what's happening. I mean, he was a James
Speaker 2: Taylor kind of person more so. Okay, well then I
Speaker 2: shouldn't say that like all my brothers and all that
Speaker 2: otis redding that period. But he was very aware of
Speaker 2: what journalism is and realized you have to cover stuff
Speaker 2: sometimes that maybe not everyone likes, and you have to
Speaker 2: cover your friends and point it out whether when they're
Speaker 2: messing up. So he was willing to do that journalism thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So for me growing up, I grew up in
Speaker 1: a Rolling Stone subscription household, and well, you know, I
Speaker 1: bless you because of the way that my dad ran
Speaker 1: his band just pretty much every other week we would
Speaker 1: Ben Shop forty five's been Shop records. He just decided
Speaker 1: to just get cash Box, Billboard, Rolling Stone, and Cream
Speaker 1: like all the music magazines basically so that his band
Speaker 1: could look through and be like, okay, we should do
Speaker 1: this that. And so initially, like the illustrations would grab me,
Speaker 1: and once I discovered what collage was, you know, third
Speaker 1: grade by this time, and it's like, oh, I'll take
Speaker 1: all the you know, Robert Risco and all the artists
Speaker 1: that were illustrators and started putting them on the wall.
Speaker 1: So that's how kind of by eighty six eighty seven,
Speaker 1: I think I had like at least two hundred of
Speaker 1: this adorn like on every square inch of it. So
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with how the record reviews were treated back then. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I think probably one of the earliest landmark records
Speaker 1: you got to review, meaning it will wind up being
Speaker 1: a classic, although you know you don't know it's a
Speaker 1: classic at the time. Was you got to do the
Speaker 1: leave review for the wall for a pin foy can.
Speaker 1: He just walked me through, like what is the process
Speaker 1: of reviewing back then? Like how long do you get
Speaker 1: to sit with the record before you even decide what
Speaker 1: to write about it. How do you did they just
Speaker 1: trust you to like hear take it?
Speaker 2: Or yeah, I mean nobody told you what's right? You listen,
Speaker 2: you didn't have a lot of time to do record reviews,
Speaker 2: but you know a lot of time to do features.
Speaker 2: You got to see your group, and you have time
Speaker 2: to do a record maybe a week or two. It
Speaker 2: was every other week rolling Stone, so maybe it'd have
Speaker 2: two weeks.
Speaker 1: Maybe you only had two weeks to take in all
Speaker 1: four sides of the wall.
Speaker 2: And might be you know, I forget exactly. It might
Speaker 2: have been four weeks. I don't know. But there's so
Speaker 2: much other stuff happening. You can't take yourself out of
Speaker 2: the mix and have everybody else do your job, and
Speaker 2: you have to do other stuff. So and how many
Speaker 2: records are really worth sweating over? When you think about it?
Speaker 2: It's true, it's like how many how many geniuses do
Speaker 2: you meet in life?
Speaker 1: I see that, see from my point of view, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: so literally this I mean now in a sort of
Speaker 1: metaphysical way, people would say like, wow, you were like
Speaker 1: manifesting your you know, affirmations or whatever. But I would
Speaker 1: literally start every album with a fake record review, like
Speaker 1: literally draw literally draw my illustration, draw the album cover,
Speaker 1: put you know, the stars there, and literally put that
Speaker 1: like post it on just to get me in the
Speaker 1: mind state of what I'm creating.
Speaker 2: Did you write bad reviews? Did you put people away?
Speaker 2: And who were they?
Speaker 1: No? I, well, you know, I also believe that classic
Speaker 1: records need highs and lows in it, Like a guy
Speaker 1: like Michael Jackson will try to go on a hundred
Speaker 1: every song of which you're gonna get numbed by a
Speaker 1: song number four. So you know, I also pay more
Speaker 1: attention to what my filler is as a post. Well,
Speaker 1: we were never a hits based group, but you know,
Speaker 1: I do believe in a balance of highs and lows
Speaker 1: in making music and all those things. But you know, nowadays,
Speaker 1: one particular artist that we know, a well known artist
Speaker 1: that was critically acclaimed during their period, went as far
Speaker 1: as like renting out a museum and for every room
Speaker 1: in the museum. That was one of his proteges. All right,
Speaker 1: everyone knows Kanye did this for it literally had a room,
Speaker 1: so you experienced the record song by song by a
Speaker 1: curated room. But you know, I learned at the time
Speaker 1: I was on def Jam. I was like, okay, so
Speaker 1: do we get to do this? It's like if you
Speaker 1: pay for it. But to them it was like the
Speaker 1: first impression was the most important, and you know the
Speaker 1: artist wants to make sure that you receive it right,
Speaker 1: that you're paying attention. Da da da da da. I
Speaker 1: mean nowadays people go through all these acrobatics or whatever.
Speaker 1: Was there any of that back then? Of what or
Speaker 1: trying to make sure we get a good review or sure?
Speaker 2: Like how important was a parties and invite you and
Speaker 2: you'd get free booze and free food.
Speaker 1: That helps?
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a lot of people who are writing about
Speaker 2: music needed the free food. They were happy to go.
Speaker 2: A lot of people lived off that stuff.
Speaker 1: Were you witness okay, I know that Queen did this
Speaker 1: for the jazz album. Were you witness to any of
Speaker 1: the jazz record release parties that later turned into.
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't there. I wasn't the world's biggest Queen fan. Really,
Speaker 2: Bryan May is great.
Speaker 1: But what did you like back then? What besides b part.
Speaker 2: I say a lot of the punk stuff was coming out.
Speaker 2: I don't think about that period. There were a lot
Speaker 2: of little bands from England I thought were very good
Speaker 2: a lot of the New York stuff. I mean, being
Speaker 2: in the middle of it. Being in New York, he
Speaker 2: would just be exposed to that all the time.
Speaker 1: But once you're tagged as a writer a journalist, does
Speaker 1: that numb the experience of just enjoying music? To enjoy music,
Speaker 1: like when you go home, do you want to hear
Speaker 1: music or do you want to hear it? The opposite?
Speaker 2: Well, at the time, I think when you're starting out,
Speaker 2: you do. I think that's one of the sort of
Speaker 2: dangers if you can put it that way of doing
Speaker 2: anything for a living, if you're reviewing movies or records
Speaker 2: or something. After a while, it becomes a job. I mean,
Speaker 2: you have to fight that off becoming a job, and
Speaker 2: you have to you have to fight off the feeling
Speaker 2: of you know who am I to review? As lou
Speaker 2: Reid once said, you work on a record for a
Speaker 2: year and some asshole of the village always gives it
Speaker 2: a B. You know, and you know how that feels.
Speaker 2: You know, you can imagine how that feels. So let's
Speaker 2: try to avoid that godlike feeling of I have I
Speaker 2: have control of your destiny with this record.
Speaker 1: But you know you're you do know your god though, right, Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well now, well actually I don't think that we know
Speaker 1: your guy, because I later, I think maybe ten years ago,
Speaker 1: I found out, like I thought that you were also
Speaker 1: responsible for the stars that were given. But who, like,
Speaker 1: who decides what the stars are given?
Speaker 2: Somebody I don't know.
Speaker 1: And are you forewarned? So save you wrote something that
Speaker 1: was moderately what you felt was fair, thinking, man, I
Speaker 1: might get a three and a half or four and
Speaker 1: then it winds up getting a three.
Speaker 2: Well you can. I mean i'd recall saying, well, this
Speaker 2: should be a four star record or I mean you
Speaker 2: could do that if it was somebody that was really
Speaker 2: important to somebody higher up a rolling stone. It mightey
Speaker 2: not come out out the way you wanted its star wise,
Speaker 2: and there would be interference with that. But that was
Speaker 2: kind of rare. I think there wasn't.
Speaker 1: Would they assign something that you didn't agree with and
Speaker 1: be like, hey.
Speaker 2: That's once or twice. Yeah, that's abound to happen. I mean,
Speaker 2: they're bound to be things like that in the music business.
Speaker 2: There are things that happened in the music business. They're
Speaker 2: not entirely virtuous. Things are done and I'm sure all
Speaker 2: the principles which hadn't been done. Life goes on.
Speaker 1: Kind of in the almost famous way. Have artists ever
Speaker 1: complained to you about like what you did, Like you know,
Speaker 1: you gave us a bad review.
Speaker 2: Or I don't remember anybody doing that.
Speaker 1: My opposite, you gave me a great review.
Speaker 2: Well occasion, Robert Plant told me once he really loved
Speaker 2: a review I did it his one of his solo albums.
Speaker 2: But generally people are not going to give writers or
Speaker 2: people on TV a hard time because it will come
Speaker 2: back to kick them in the ass later. So there's
Speaker 2: that going on too. There's a lot of cultivation, try
Speaker 2: and be nice to this person.
Speaker 1: I think people were self aware that maybe in the eighties,
Speaker 1: but I think in the seventies is probably just an
Speaker 1: all out. Some of the more savage things I've read
Speaker 1: review wise were seventies, and I never knew what the
Speaker 1: artist's response was to that. I know, like especially now,
Speaker 1: like I've read many a confrontational, passive, aggressive dig from
Speaker 1: artists to journalists.
Speaker 2: The Lester Bangs had really come out of a relationship
Speaker 2: with Lou Reid and they printed it. I mean, he
Speaker 2: would write stuff with Lou who came out in Punk
Speaker 2: magazine and just trashing.
Speaker 1: Him to his face, and he wanted this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the greatest thing about Lester. He would just
Speaker 2: do this stuff and it would get printed, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure Lou wasn't too happy about it, but he sat
Speaker 2: down for it. He did more than one interview with Lester.
Speaker 1: So, but your goal was never to make a mark
Speaker 1: or try.
Speaker 2: To figure out like make somebody angry.
Speaker 1: Well, I would imagine, okay, So I know, initially when
Speaker 1: I first started video directors, I thought, like wanted to
Speaker 1: be video directors. But then it's like, no, they do
Speaker 1: video directors so they could do commercials, so they could
Speaker 1: do a TV series, so they could finally do it.
Speaker 2: Make the top for you?
Speaker 1: Though? Was the endgame ever, Like, okay, I want to
Speaker 1: write a New York Times bestseller, like write fiction or I.
Speaker 2: Didn't think about it. No, I never wanted to write fiction.
Speaker 2: I don't think I would have been any good at it.
Speaker 2: It'd be nice to have a book, you know. I
Speaker 2: had a couple of books that was great. But everybody
Speaker 2: think everybody wants to climb up and be on top
Speaker 2: of their field. But I was pretty happy being a writer.
Speaker 2: That people will actually read right, and it got out
Speaker 2: distributed that far because most writers don't have that.
Speaker 1: What friendships have you developed as a result of your journalism, like.
Speaker 2: With artists, Almost nothing. I think it's a bad idea
Speaker 2: to be friends with people you're covering. Never do it.
Speaker 2: Don't do it. If you're going to hang out with
Speaker 2: somebody and be they stopped by your house for a
Speaker 2: sandwich or something, it's like you're not going to be
Speaker 2: able to cover that person anymore.
Speaker 1: Has someone try across that line with you.
Speaker 2: Not if they value their life, you know, not really?
Speaker 2: I mean I think the it was persuasive thing. And
Speaker 2: in the seventies and the eighties or there always be
Speaker 2: drugs around and people be saying, take a bunch of
Speaker 2: this with you, and really it's yours for free, So
Speaker 2: that would happen. But I was never really friend. I
Speaker 2: knew Don Captain b far It pretty well. There were
Speaker 2: people I knew pretty well, but I'm not gonna I
Speaker 2: want to make myself sound too virtuous. But there were
Speaker 2: a couple of people I was kind of close to
Speaker 2: that I knew okay, but not many.
Speaker 1: What was your first cover story do you remember?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was it the pretenders. I don't know. The
Speaker 2: first thing I ever did for olling Stone was this
Speaker 2: band called Poco, which was like or Poco just like
Speaker 2: it was kind of a country rock things like Okay,
Speaker 2: so somebody as would you like to do this? And no,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't like to do it, actually, but since you're
Speaker 2: asking for Rolling Stone, sure I'll go to it. So
Speaker 2: you have to go home and listen to poker records
Speaker 2: and go and then you go talk to the guys.
Speaker 2: And inevitably, people in the business are pretty nice if
Speaker 2: they're getting you're knowing a story on them. Everybody's pretty
Speaker 2: nice show businesses. I find that, don't you find that?
Speaker 2: I think I was that, like, you're very nice? You know?
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I okay, So I will probably say now
Speaker 1: one of the scariest things about being me is I'm
Speaker 1: close friends with people. I'm not trying to think of
Speaker 1: a diplomatic way to say this, like I'm not in
Speaker 1: their demographic. However, I do enjoy the science of dissecting
Speaker 1: why something works, you know what I mean. So even
Speaker 1: though like even in the height of TRL mania with whoever,
Speaker 1: Backstreet and Sinct or whatever, I'd go to those concerts
Speaker 1: like not as not as like a but more like
Speaker 1: I want to study like how I want to know
Speaker 1: how things work, like how the machine works. And so
Speaker 1: sometimes you'll get caught in the thing. And a great
Speaker 1: example is Fish. I thought I had nothing in common
Speaker 1: with Fish, and just as a favor, they let me
Speaker 1: trail them. This is like when they were initially going
Speaker 1: to retire and the spands like a week left and
Speaker 1: like one of my nerdy friends that ran our website,
Speaker 1: Hello Dan, said you know, like I feel like you
Speaker 1: guys could learn from their business model just go to
Speaker 1: the shows, and you know, I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: even do psychedelics. I don't know if this is going
Speaker 1: to be fun. I have the time of my life there,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But I'm emotionally involved for
Speaker 1: other reasons, but it's just not me like being a
Speaker 1: fan of their work. Eventually I'll study it because I'm
Speaker 1: also embarrassed that I don't know. It'd be like me
Speaker 1: not knowing thriller or whatever. Well, how would did you
Speaker 1: handle someone that you're not generally interested in? But it's
Speaker 1: an assignment.
Speaker 2: I think you're right. You find a way to be interested.
Speaker 2: If you like music, if you like the business. I mean,
Speaker 2: all one of the guys in the Great I think
Speaker 2: Jerry Garcia had said, even the lamest music doesn't hurt anybody,
Speaker 2: So it's not gonna it's not gonna hurt you to
Speaker 2: go listen to it. You know, I think most music
Speaker 2: has something redeeming about it if the person has talent.
Speaker 2: So you wind up covering stuff that you might not
Speaker 2: immediately love. But a friend of mine, David Frick, covered Fish.
Speaker 2: He was not a typical candidate for a Fish fan,
Speaker 2: but he was definitely. He went and spent time with them,
Speaker 2: and he came back just saying, they're actually great. They're
Speaker 2: really nice guys, and they're all actually great live. I've
Speaker 2: never seen them live, but it's be brutal. No.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, here's the deal, all right. So the
Speaker 1: day one, the reason why my guy wanted me to
Speaker 1: go see them was because I didn't understand. He's like
Speaker 1: telling me, yo, your life is going to change if
Speaker 1: you start letting fans tape. And you know, I was like,
Speaker 1: you bootleate my show. No, no no, no, no no no,
Speaker 1: And he was like, dude, you just gotta see how
Speaker 1: this will change your life. And so initially I think
Speaker 1: with Fish, I was still like, nah, I'm good. But
Speaker 1: then when I went to see Pearl Jam and saw
Speaker 1: how their community works, then I was like, all right, maybe, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm onto something because my whole thing is like why
Speaker 1: I give the cowway when I'm also selling the milk.
Speaker 1: But then day two I hung out backstage just to
Speaker 1: see how they operate, and I was like, Wow, this
Speaker 1: guy's playing a vacuum cleaner as a drum solo and
Speaker 1: all this stuff. By day three, I think I was
Speaker 1: just open to it and realized and subsequently taking all
Speaker 1: those notes that we took for those four days, like
Speaker 1: the entire Roots most operati like changed for the better
Speaker 1: because I just couldn't understand how like, especially with black music,
Speaker 1: you gotta have a hit out the box. I think
Speaker 1: the Roots are like one of the last groups that
Speaker 1: like relied on prestige and you know, critical claim and
Speaker 1: all that stuff without ever having a hit single. And
Speaker 1: you know, every album is just like nerve racking for
Speaker 1: me of like, are we're going to get dropped? Not drop?
Speaker 1: We need somebody to give us a you know, a
Speaker 1: hot version or a cameo. I didn't want to have
Speaker 1: to jump through the same hoops, you know, like Joni
Speaker 1: Mitchell doesn't need a cameo from method Man or any
Speaker 1: of those things.
Speaker 2: So Charles, she got Charles Mingus to do, right, I
Speaker 2: like to.
Speaker 1: Be Wait, do you have a favorite This has been
Speaker 1: a recurring theme on each episode I've done. Do you
Speaker 1: have a favorite Mitchell album?
Speaker 2: I guess Blue?
Speaker 1: Oh you like Blue?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: I mean she's really interesting. I think there's a live
Speaker 2: version of her doing Free Men in Paris and it's
Speaker 2: as like Randy Brecker on and has like these real
Speaker 2: jazz guys and she's amazing doing that. Her coord sense
Speaker 2: is amazing, I mean more so than people understand, I
Speaker 2: think or appreciate. So I spent a long night getting
Speaker 2: really drunk with her once and Dan Tana's and she
Speaker 2: what was that? Like? That was great? She's a fun person.
Speaker 2: Joe Mayez is a fun person. You never know who's
Speaker 2: going to be entertaining.
Speaker 1: On the opposite side of that, has there been not
Speaker 1: a contentious relationship but a relationship that or not a
Speaker 1: non relationship that you weren't aware of of an artist
Speaker 1: like not liking you but you got to know them later.
Speaker 2: Or no, I mean they don't like you. You generally
Speaker 2: don't know unless you go do something with them and
Speaker 2: they it's clear that they hate you. I'm sure lots
Speaker 2: of people didn't like me, you know.
Speaker 1: But the thing is is that what makes you notable,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'll get to your MTV phase, is
Speaker 1: that you pretty much had access to people who would
Speaker 1: never give an interview. So there's some sort of disarming
Speaker 1: thing about you that.
Speaker 2: Well, you have access, depending on your outlook, if you
Speaker 2: if you work for Rolling Stone or whatever, if it's
Speaker 2: it's important enough, you have the access. Everybody loves you
Speaker 2: because they love your out your outlet, they love the
Speaker 2: publicity they'll get out of it. So there's sometimes not
Speaker 2: an overdose of sincerity going on. People. It's business. It's
Speaker 2: a business transaction. Nobody's I don't remember anybody telling me
Speaker 2: they hate me to my face, but I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Well, nice to you those first yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you could tell what condition he was
Speaker 2: in while you were dealing with him. That was a
Speaker 2: great band. I love them, and he was exactly what
Speaker 2: you would think, you know, crazy and talented.
Speaker 1: Why did you do you know that it was time
Speaker 1: to make a pivot and leave Rolling Stone? To go
Speaker 1: try other things that you.
Speaker 2: I didn't really, I mean, it just it just happened
Speaker 2: that I was doing a story in Australia on the
Speaker 2: Mad Max movie, the third Mad Max movie, and Tina
Speaker 2: Turner was in it, and I knew that somebody there
Speaker 2: was somebody trying to do a TEENA Turner book like
Speaker 2: in a week or something like one of those quick
Speaker 2: turnaround things junk. And I told her managers, and you know,
Speaker 2: somebody should do this real story because it's an amazing
Speaker 2: story going back to Saint Louis in like nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: or something, that whole shipland circuit thing fascinating and somebody
Speaker 2: should do that. And they said, well, okay, so I
Speaker 2: got to do that. It was was that Roger Davies, Yeah,
Speaker 2: lucky man, and it was she was very fortunate to
Speaker 2: have him for their manager because he was absolutely vision,
Speaker 2: we'll just stop people's butt. So it was amazing being
Speaker 2: with it. That Tina didn't all the records of hers
Speaker 2: that I liked, the early stuff she hated. She hated
Speaker 2: all that stuff that he said he would put this
Speaker 2: in keys it was too high for me. And so
Speaker 2: she doesn't look back out of the way I did.
Speaker 2: I thought those records are like immortal, and when she
Speaker 2: gets it, when you get into like the the hippie
Speaker 2: phase and rock, it's like, I don't know, I think
Speaker 2: she was better than that, really, but she was a
Speaker 2: fascinating person.
Speaker 1: You were over there to cover her.
Speaker 2: No, I forget I was over there. I think doing
Speaker 2: it was like in the the period when like minute work,
Speaker 2: what's happening people like that, you'd be covered in the
Speaker 2: Australian scene, which was a happening thing. And I'm conflating
Speaker 2: these things probably, But I went over to do the
Speaker 2: Mad Max movie, so that was very interesting to meet
Speaker 2: George Miller, the directors like a genius and you know
Speaker 2: tenas that are wearing some bizarre chain mail outfit.
Speaker 1: Was just great.
Speaker 2: And uh, it was just a great trip. It was
Speaker 2: to be over there. It was great to watch her work.
Speaker 1: How many hours of interviews was the Iteena process?
Speaker 2: Oh twenty some hours, I'm sure? And travel?
Speaker 1: How would you spread it out so that you wouldn't
Speaker 1: exhaust her.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you could exhaust her. She worked
Speaker 2: all the time. But we did a lot. We did
Speaker 2: stuff in New York and some gigs here and then
Speaker 2: went to Europe and travel around in Europe, and after
Speaker 2: the show every night she would talk. I mean, after
Speaker 2: doing one of these shows where you're just killing yourself,
Speaker 2: she would have the time to talk and remember her stuff.
Speaker 2: And it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: I thought, wasn't cathartic for her to go through these memories?
Speaker 2: We like to think? So she did another autobiography of
Speaker 2: some sort of like a year or two ago, and
Speaker 2: I don't know why I didn't read it, but not
Speaker 2: because I didn't want it. I'm sure it was fine,
Speaker 2: but get Yeah, I think it was cathartic to get
Speaker 2: this stuff off her chest and talk about it because
Speaker 2: a lot of us pretty ugly as you as you know,
Speaker 2: so it's hard to talk about that. And I think
Speaker 2: it affected her vision of the music she made with
Speaker 2: like and I turns a very important figure in rhythm moves,
Speaker 2: very very important. This guy you know, works with Howl
Speaker 2: and Wolf and stuff like amazing, but he's only known
Speaker 2: now as a wife.
Speaker 1: Meeter, how did you know exactly what picture to paint?
Speaker 1: Because you know, eighty six eighty seven really wasn't a
Speaker 1: time period where people were very like transparent about you know,
Speaker 1: the eighties were ruled by mystery and scarcity marketing and
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, Like was there any point during
Speaker 1: the interview process where she felt like she went too
Speaker 1: far and revealing things or like no, I don't recall that,
Speaker 1: or pulling it out of her She.
Speaker 2: Knew she was a particular place and because of Roger Davies,
Speaker 2: he knew what was happening in England and all these
Speaker 2: new groups, you know, Human League and stuff was going on,
Speaker 2: and they're making records just with synthesizers. He said, he
Speaker 2: knew what's happening here. He said, this is what you
Speaker 2: need to do. You've got this classic R and B voice.
Speaker 2: Let's put you in front of all these synthesizers and
Speaker 2: work with these new young people. And it was brilliant.
Speaker 2: And that record when it came out Private answer, you
Speaker 2: would listen to it and you knew it was a hit.
Speaker 2: This is a hit, this is a hit, this is
Speaker 2: a hit. It was an amazing record.
Speaker 1: What was your response to when it TENA got optioned
Speaker 1: for a movie, Like did you have any saying that
Speaker 1: or they just took your book in?
Speaker 2: Pretty happy about it? You know they pay you for
Speaker 2: these things.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I didn't know Okay, you know you might.
Speaker 1: I'm a filmmaker. Okay, well no, no, no, no, no, Well I've
Speaker 1: yet to do a script it, but I never knew
Speaker 1: what the process was in optioning a book.
Speaker 2: And the book gets optioned, and do you.
Speaker 1: Have any say in the actual screenwriting of it all
Speaker 1: that they now ask you for the tapes to listen or.
Speaker 2: I have given that tape, those tapes, some of them
Speaker 2: to other people who've done documentaries about Tina for HBO somebody.
Speaker 1: Do you still have the originals?
Speaker 2: I have all that?
Speaker 1: Do you have all your tapes? Come on? Why?
Speaker 2: Because that would be like fifty weeks of tapes. I mean,
Speaker 2: I haven't got that much a living space, so.
Speaker 1: You're not sentimental at all about.
Speaker 2: Like oh yeah, but I mean you can't and you
Speaker 2: move around, you lose stuff. I mean, I've got David Bowie,
Speaker 2: I've got Pete tousand, I've got these people I talked
Speaker 2: to like to keep all of that. I hope cassette
Speaker 2: tapes really last a long time because they're all very
Speaker 2: old now.
Speaker 1: So moving to MTV, when did you start working there?
Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty eight, February, Arizona.
Speaker 1: Okay, Like I've always been aware of MTV and watched
Speaker 1: it religiously, but I would probably say that your arrival
Speaker 1: there is where suddenly like I felt like rock journalism
Speaker 1: was a respectable thing.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And in your presentation, were you self aware of being
Speaker 1: cut dry the way that you were because you're on MTV?
Speaker 1: I think the temptation for a lot of people there.
Speaker 1: And this is the thing, I was unaware of how
Speaker 1: old you were, So I'm thinking at least back then
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, maybe five or six years older than
Speaker 1: you were, like kind of the older brother figure to us.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of us. But you know, with anyone
Speaker 1: else that's on any of those video channels, they might
Speaker 1: tend to code switch and pander to all, yo, what's
Speaker 1: up dudes that I'm here a MTV And yeah, and
Speaker 1: you never did that, and I actually like with you
Speaker 1: and Tabatha also like very just cut dry and it
Speaker 1: made you trustworthy and so like, was that a conscious
Speaker 1: decision to.
Speaker 2: I don't have that cut personality. I cannot be bubbly.
Speaker 2: I'm not a bubbly person. It's a failing. Actually it's
Speaker 2: not something he would boast about, but yeah, I couldn't
Speaker 2: do that. So so I'm naturally dead pand.
Speaker 1: And not once where the MTV people like this guy
Speaker 1: is absolutely like, no, they're nowhere near Ricky Rackman or
Speaker 1: poly Shore or whoever.
Speaker 2: And why would I try to be? Then they're they're
Speaker 2: good at being them. Once in a while, I would
Speaker 2: get asked to do something. It would be like the
Speaker 2: Spice Girls or something.
Speaker 1: You know, try on a silly hat or whatever, like I.
Speaker 2: Never did that. Okay, Well, now I wore pajamas for
Speaker 2: a Madonna shoot. She was having something called bed for
Speaker 2: Bedtime Stories that album, and yeah, everybody got in pajamas.
Speaker 2: I was really dumb, but it was fun. Doing stuff
Speaker 2: with Madonna is always fun.
Speaker 1: Wait, oh my god, I'm thinking of real time. He
Speaker 1: described that moment with Madonna and Courtney Love at the
Speaker 1: like you're in the middle of what was obviously a
Speaker 1: real time even your casualness of taking this question, like
Speaker 1: I don't remember this. Do you remember this moment at all?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's all I see it all the time
Speaker 2: because it's it's on TV. We're doing some little interview
Speaker 2: with Madonna. Some compact, like a woman's makeup compact went
Speaker 2: flying through the air and Donna said, then, so somebody
Speaker 2: we saw that was Courtney, and then some producers said
Speaker 2: get her up on stage, which Madonna's going, God, no,
Speaker 2: don't do that. And so Courtney comes up, just wasted,
Speaker 2: falls down, her skirt goes up. It was it was
Speaker 2: great television. You know, you prayedvision absolutely okay, do it again,
Speaker 2: never fall down again. It'll be great.
Speaker 1: And was Madonna surely she realized.
Speaker 2: Very happy about it. No, but she maintained her composure.
Speaker 2: She didn't like to be upstaged, as you might imagine. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was great, and now it's you're gonna still see
Speaker 2: it three years later.
Speaker 1: I totally forgot you were in the middle of that storm.
Speaker 1: I absolutely forgot what are probably three of the in
Speaker 1: your mind, like the most landmark moments of your tenure there.
Speaker 2: You would have to tell me, I don't know, there's
Speaker 2: a landmark for you.
Speaker 1: I think is okay. So being at NBC, there was
Speaker 1: a point where because after we take the Tonight Show,
Speaker 1: my addressing room is also a studio, so oftentimes I'll
Speaker 1: leave there one in the morning, two in the morning.
Speaker 1: And there was a period like for the first four
Speaker 1: or five years, where I'd see Brian Williams in the Cafeteriam, like,
Speaker 1: what the hell are you doing here? And explain to me, like,
Speaker 1: I often have to stay here just in case something
Speaker 1: and happens. So if we were like on the verge
Speaker 1: of a war or something like major that's happening, he
Speaker 1: would just have to live in that building. Were you
Speaker 1: on twenty four hour call for like a lot of
Speaker 1: Like when the Kurt Cobain situation happened, you were the
Speaker 1: first voice that we heard.
Speaker 2: In john Lyn and eyes or something. Someone will call
Speaker 2: you at home. Yeah, I mean a memorable thing, just
Speaker 2: some of the Prince wants at Paisley Park. I went
Speaker 2: up there and talked to him, and Prince shows up
Speaker 2: wearing sunglasses and the producer's just going nuts, said you
Speaker 2: can't wear some telling Prince you can't do some reflection. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: just we can't see your eyes. So he's in no
Speaker 2: way he's going to take them off, you know. He
Speaker 2: said you have to take them all. He said no,
Speaker 2: She's just that kind of guy. And so he did
Speaker 2: this interview and afterwards he was kind of an a
Speaker 2: good mood. He said, we'll have I'll call the band.
Speaker 2: He goes somewhere and calls every guy in the band.
Speaker 2: You're getting Larry Graham out of bed, and they all
Speaker 2: show up like half an hour later and they start playing.
Speaker 2: So we're sitting there listening to them for like an
Speaker 2: hour and a half or something.
Speaker 1: He did a full concert for how many people in
Speaker 1: the room A thousand?
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a lot of people, and it
Speaker 2: was just amazing and Princess playing this guitar that signed
Speaker 2: on the back by George Benson, one of those full
Speaker 2: sized Gibsons. Yeah, that was a night to remember, as
Speaker 2: they say.
Speaker 1: That's cool. Do you remember anything at all about the
Speaker 1: handling or the announcement of Nirvana of him dying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think anybody was shocked that he committed suicide.
Speaker 2: He was sort of on the it was known that
Speaker 2: he was on the verge of that. But you're shocked
Speaker 2: that this would have happened. This band was so good.
Speaker 2: They were such a great lie back and and nice
Speaker 2: guys too, and just thought, God, what a loss. He
Speaker 2: could have done a lot of stuff. Everybody says that
Speaker 2: when somebody telling him dies, like what if Buddy Holly lived,
Speaker 2: imagine what he might be doing. But he might have
Speaker 2: been like a country and Western hack too. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: never know. But oh, I think Kirk Obang, I think
Speaker 2: he was ready to move on to more elaborate stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean there's there are tapes of him sort of
Speaker 2: talking about that. I want to said, these guys are
Speaker 2: holding me back if you can imagine that great band.
Speaker 1: I know that the air quote, the serious artist trope
Speaker 1: like often kind of hampers an artist. I'm probably guilty
Speaker 1: of that, like overthinking, over rehearsing, overthinking, over researching, all
Speaker 1: those things. What do you look for in terms of
Speaker 1: an artist that impresses you, like, because I'm certain that
Speaker 1: you've been in situations where you might think, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this person's pretentious, or you've been in a situation where
Speaker 1: nobody knows enough about this person. Or you've probably been
Speaker 1: in situations where an artist might be burnt out you
Speaker 1: know that they're phoning it in or whatever. But like
Speaker 1: for you, how can you I won't say judge, but
Speaker 1: like for you, what do you think your subjective opinion
Speaker 1: is on, like what an artist should be as far
Speaker 1: as your observation in the last four decades of journalism, what.
Speaker 2: Should an artist be? Talented? Should be real talented?
Speaker 1: Well, how do you feel an music.
Speaker 2: Now there's there's always stuff going on. There's never been
Speaker 2: a time whether there hasn't been great music. I don't
Speaker 2: think you have to be aware of it or you
Speaker 2: have to go look for it, but it's there. You
Speaker 2: can't get it all off the radio.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, okay, So in let's go
Speaker 1: to the eighties. In the eighties, who are the three
Speaker 1: people that are your your trusted voice dog? You got
Speaker 1: to check this record out, like listen to this or yo,
Speaker 1: did you hear that new record? Who are those three people.
Speaker 2: That I think I did the first the first rapp
Speaker 2: review for only SI, Yes you did the message that
Speaker 2: was amazing.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm sorry, Yes, it's right.
Speaker 2: My life that was sort of different.
Speaker 1: It was it was leave review for a single guy.
Speaker 1: I remember it. I never saw a leave review single
Speaker 1: before that. Candy Girl for some reason, like got leave
Speaker 1: reviews as singles. But yeah, that was a moment in
Speaker 1: which even my dad noticed like, oh, okay, the stuff
Speaker 1: you're listening to is important.
Speaker 2: All that stuff run DMC and all those guys like wow,
Speaker 2: that changed the world, changed the business in a big way.
Speaker 1: Is there a point where you I think I went
Speaker 1: through this and maybe right before the pandemic, like maybe
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen where I started, Okay, well maybe I
Speaker 1: should get off the train, and well.
Speaker 2: It's just is it a dark period?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think at that time Pierre I
Speaker 1: was leading, especially leading them to the pandemic with all
Speaker 1: the therapy stuff and just really wondering, like you know,
Speaker 1: the ten year old of Mirror that would study record reviews,
Speaker 1: study liner notes, and you know, his parents would let
Speaker 1: him get up at one in the morning to watch
Speaker 1: whatever divo and rock concert or whatever, like any of
Speaker 1: those things, and then the music just became a burden
Speaker 1: to me, right, and similar to you know, job, well
Speaker 1: became a job. And you know, I know, especially with
Speaker 1: Miles Davis and Joni Mitchell, that they found other things
Speaker 1: to do, start painting whatever. So that's how it got
Speaker 1: into doing like other things this and movies and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Now I'm back on the bandwagon, but you know, there
Speaker 1: is that moment where I think most people that had
Speaker 1: a passion, I mean, it's almost like a relationship, like
Speaker 1: it's the honeymoon period in the first five years, and
Speaker 1: you're sort of contentious and indifferent. And I didn't want
Speaker 1: to be that person, but for you, like, was there
Speaker 1: a moment in which you just felt like I'm out
Speaker 1: of this or I don't understand, or you were signed
Speaker 1: someone that.
Speaker 2: Oh No, I think if you're whatever you do, you're
Speaker 2: gonna get tired of it. I think if you want
Speaker 2: something fresher, it's always good to move out, move on
Speaker 2: and do new things. As you say, when I was
Speaker 2: writing record or yours, I got tired of that. And
Speaker 2: then you do features and after a while you get
Speaker 2: tired of that because you've done it and it comes
Speaker 2: the same thing over and over, and you move on
Speaker 2: to other other fields and other things.
Speaker 1: So what is your passion now nowadays besides movie you're writing,
Speaker 1: which I love your Yeah.
Speaker 2: I write about movies quite a bit, Yeah, I and traverse.
Speaker 1: I like your takes on on on music on movies.
Speaker 1: Do you do your own headlines? Also for the movie
Speaker 1: reviews that you do?
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, because as I say so, if you're leave
Speaker 2: it for someone else, I always find if you because
Speaker 2: people whoever you're waiting for, they want it like a
Speaker 2: photo or something, and if you give them fifteen photos,
Speaker 2: they're going to pick the worst one and put it in. Yes, Demily,
Speaker 2: to make people seem stupid, but it's just going to happen.
Speaker 2: Everybody's busy, everybody's running through stuff, so to do it
Speaker 2: yourself is always best.
Speaker 1: I think, is there something that you haven't delved into
Speaker 1: at all, or some sort of bucket list project or
Speaker 1: creative project that you've yet to do in writing?
Speaker 2: I hope, So, I don't know. I can't think of
Speaker 2: anything offhand. I mean, I think I've been totally blessed
Speaker 2: to be able to do stuff that I was really
Speaker 2: interested in. I mean, to be able to spend your
Speaker 2: life supporting yourself doing something you love. How many people
Speaker 2: get to do that, and so you are really fortunate
Speaker 2: if you do well.
Speaker 1: You know, this is a buckle, this dream for me
Speaker 1: to just thank you, talk to you, and I really
Speaker 1: in that bucket. I will say that you're You're kind
Speaker 1: of the top of the pile. I mean, because a
Speaker 1: lot of my music education and you know this is
Speaker 1: not just MTV. MTV is probably the least of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know again, I'm I'm living, I'm living
Speaker 1: with your words like plastered on the wall. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's great to finally have the face to the person
Speaker 1: that I've done up with and I thank you for that. Man.
Speaker 2: I was very happy to meet people. You know, James Brown,
Speaker 2: so I was very happy to meet him once. And
Speaker 2: remember remember the period when he was the original disco man.
Speaker 2: In the disco period, they made him do this record.
Speaker 2: I said, oh man, And there was some party at
Speaker 2: some bar. He shows up in a bright red hat
Speaker 2: like the one Prince wore for the Hall of Fame thing,
Speaker 2: and so, well, come meet James went up. It's really
Speaker 2: loud in there, and I said, I love everything you've
Speaker 2: ever done, starting with nineteen fifty six. From there and
Speaker 2: up every I just I've probably named every single idiot right,
Speaker 2: and they're going on and on and on. And at
Speaker 2: the end, when I was finished, I turned around to
Speaker 2: go somewhere else. He didn't say a word. He hadn't
Speaker 2: said one word.
Speaker 1: He didn't.
Speaker 2: I was impressed. That is the greatest thing. Wow, he
Speaker 2: saved that for me.
Speaker 1: You know, for him to say nothing is normally it's
Speaker 1: the opposite. When I hear those stories.
Speaker 2: Well that makes me feel worse now.
Speaker 1: No, I you know, well might awesome, might be performative,
Speaker 1: James that thank god you didn't get that person. It's
Speaker 1: where you mentioned that James is probably the one artist
Speaker 1: to whom I'm probably the only person I know that
Speaker 1: has high regard for classic records, yeah, and horrible records.
Speaker 1: I believe that horrible records and classic records are one
Speaker 1: of the same. That's what I don't like is mediocre
Speaker 1: record Yeah. And James Brown has never made a mediocre record.
Speaker 1: So when a lot of his posts mustache, some would
Speaker 1: say angel dust period of James Brown, I find myself,
Speaker 1: especially in the last fifteen years, I listen to a
Speaker 1: lot of posts seventy five, you know, and I have
Speaker 1: my little James Brown circle of former employees of his
Speaker 1: or whatever, and I'll just you know, hear a filler
Speaker 1: song and what was on his mind when he made this?
Speaker 1: But it's so bad, it's awesome to me. And it's
Speaker 1: to the point, like jazz bassist Christian McBride fellow Philadelphia
Speaker 1: and I are going to probably do we want to
Speaker 1: do kind of a tribute band to some of the
Speaker 1: worst of James Brown. Actually, you want to know something,
Speaker 1: I have this discussion with him maybe two years before
Speaker 1: he passed. Prince, So the Prince's the north star that
Speaker 1: guides Prince. As far as James Brown is concerned, is
Speaker 1: actually that period the four on the floor disco?
Speaker 2: Oh why not sure?
Speaker 1: Which you know, of course as a hip hop as
Speaker 1: a hip hop head, you know we are stuck between
Speaker 1: sixty seven and seventy four, where like the breakfeats are.
Speaker 1: And then I asked him one day. I was like, yo,
Speaker 1: like all of your James Brown references I've ever heard
Speaker 1: kind of come from the bad period. And he says
Speaker 1: bad to whom? And in my mind, I'm like, well, duh,
Speaker 1: Like come on, dude, Like I have many rehearsals you
Speaker 1: like playing body heat at nausea. He's like, you don't
Speaker 1: like body heat? And I was like, well, that's cool,
Speaker 1: but what about like you did too funky in here
Speaker 1: for like an hour at rehearsal. He's like, you do
Speaker 1: only too funny in here?
Speaker 2: And then many new organ trio stuff.
Speaker 1: Possibly no, but it's it's he's true artistry. He literally
Speaker 1: has never done anything media like, not many people can
Speaker 1: say that, like to not be mediocre, I think is
Speaker 1: probably the.
Speaker 2: Artist's goal tonight for you, that's so true.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, my pleasure. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Kurt Loader on the Quest Love Show, and I thank
Speaker 1: you guys, and I'll see you on the next go round.
Speaker 1: See you. Quest Love Show is hosted by Me Mere
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