Speaker 1: Off the Record is the production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Off the Record.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jordan Runta. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: We're taking a quick midseason break from our story this week.
Speaker 1: Will of the next chapter of Bowie's life for you
Speaker 1: on Monday, March eight. But today we have something extra
Speaker 1: special in store, a conversation with Mr Ken's Scott, the
Speaker 1: man who co produced a string of Bowie's most beloved albums,
Speaker 1: Hunky Dory, Ziggy, Stardust, Aladdin, Saying, and Pin Ups. For
Speaker 1: most people, that's enough bragging rights to last a lifetime.
Speaker 1: Yet that's just a small part of Ken's legendary career.
Speaker 1: His life is almost as if the movie Almost Famous
Speaker 1: happened in a recording studio. His first job was at
Speaker 1: Abbey Road Studios in London. His first day as an engineer,
Speaker 1: he was enlisted to work with a little band called
Speaker 1: The Beatles No Pressure. As we'll see, Trial by Fire
Speaker 1: is a recurring theme in Ken Scott's story. He worked
Speaker 1: alongside the Beatles producer George Martin, learning his craft as
Speaker 1: the band recorded songs for classics like Magical Mystery Tour
Speaker 1: and the White Album. The list of other names he's
Speaker 1: worked with as an engineer, producer reads like a roll
Speaker 1: call for the rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Elton,
Speaker 1: John lou Read, Jeff Beck, Harry Nielsen, Super Tramp, Devo, Duran, Duran, Procohiram,
Speaker 1: and of course, David Bowie would characterize Scott as his
Speaker 1: own personal George Martin, helping him translate his abstract, creative
Speaker 1: notions into sonic reality. They were the perfect collaborators and
Speaker 1: co conspirators as David found his musical voice and evolved
Speaker 1: into a world class songwriter. Together with guitarist Mick Ronson
Speaker 1: and his unforgettable orchestral scores, How could they lose? Ken's
Speaker 1: twelve memoir Abbey Road to Ziggy Stardust was a crucial
Speaker 1: part of my research for this season of Off the Record.
Speaker 1: We first crossed paths in at a listening event for
Speaker 1: the Beatles Mono box set. I've bombarded him with breathless
Speaker 1: questions about my favorite band, which he answered with grace
Speaker 1: and good humor. I'm extremely grateful that he agreed to
Speaker 1: a second round of my breathless questions, this time about
Speaker 1: David Bowie. Well, I guess it's the start. You've had,
Speaker 1: just an unbelievable career working with the Beatles, upon John
Speaker 1: David Bowie, procoha. I'm just to name a few, and
Speaker 1: it can really all be traced to nine days when
Speaker 1: you were sixteen years old. Take me back there. How
Speaker 1: did this journey begin for you? I realized what I
Speaker 1: wanted to do, what I had to do when I
Speaker 1: was twelve and a half. I received a granting t
Speaker 1: K twenty five tape machine for Christmas, and it became
Speaker 1: my life. I fell in love with type. I loved
Speaker 1: the smell of it, I loved the feel of it.
Speaker 1: I loved all that you could do with it, and
Speaker 1: I knew that somehow or another, I had to work
Speaker 1: with tape, and sort of checking around, I discovered that
Speaker 1: the best thing that I could do would be to
Speaker 1: become something called a recording engineer, which at that point,
Speaker 1: no one knew what a recording engineer was. One knew
Speaker 1: what went on in a recording studio, unlike today. But
Speaker 1: I knew what I had to do, so I kept going.
Speaker 1: It looked to me, with what little information I could
Speaker 1: glean at that point, it looks as if I'd have
Speaker 1: to go to university and get an electronics degree before
Speaker 1: I could go and get a try and get a
Speaker 1: job at the BBC. Who seemed to be the ones
Speaker 1: that you had to go through that I was sixteen.
Speaker 1: I was just fed up with school and I thought,
Speaker 1: there's no way I'm going to be able to keep
Speaker 1: going and go to university and all that. So one
Speaker 1: Friday evening I pulled out a phone phone directory and
Speaker 1: wrote to as many places as I could find that
Speaker 1: might need someone called a recording engineer. So that was
Speaker 1: the Friday. I mailed it out on Saturday. On the Tuesday,
Speaker 1: I received a letter from one of the places I'd
Speaker 1: written to saying that they would like me to come
Speaker 1: in for an interview. I called them up set up
Speaker 1: the interview for the next day, which was the way day.
Speaker 1: Took my first ever trip across London. I lived in
Speaker 1: southeast London and the place I was going to was
Speaker 1: in northwest London, so it really was straight across. I've
Speaker 1: never done that before. I've never been to a job
Speaker 1: interview before. It took place and on the Friday I
Speaker 1: received a letter from them asking me to phone them,
Speaker 1: and I found up and they said they wanted me
Speaker 1: to start the following Monday, So I left school that
Speaker 1: day and that it just so happened at that place
Speaker 1: that wanted me to start on Monday. At the time,
Speaker 1: it was known as the EMI Recording Studios. Of course
Speaker 1: now it's it's the Abbey Roll Recording Studio. Is probably
Speaker 1: the most famous recording studio in the world. As we'll
Speaker 1: see it again and again in your story, fate has
Speaker 1: a tendency of just sort of throwing you in at
Speaker 1: the deep end. I mean, you get your your first
Speaker 1: job at em I Studio's Abbey Road Studios, and your
Speaker 1: first job, as I believe an assistant engineer, was with
Speaker 1: the Beatles at the time. I mean, so you're really
Speaker 1: starting right at the time, Oh Gown, it was terrifying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the first and the first time I'm ever on my
Speaker 1: own looking after the tape machine, which is all we
Speaker 1: as assistant engineers did that. Then we just looked after
Speaker 1: the tape machine and it was four side two of
Speaker 1: the Hard Days Night, the non film music sry and yeah,
Speaker 1: it was petrifying. I mean, how how did your experience
Speaker 1: working with Sir George Martin and the Beatles prepare you
Speaker 1: for for working with David, were there any lessons that
Speaker 1: you gleaned from from those early sessions that you worked
Speaker 1: on that that you incorporated later on, Oh, without a
Speaker 1: shadow of a doubt. Without at the time, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize it's it's only in hindsight I realized exactly what
Speaker 1: I learned from from George Martin and from another producer
Speaker 1: i'd work with who happened to produce Basondity that the
Speaker 1: single a gentleman by name August Argon. Both of them
Speaker 1: were very much that talent is in the studio to
Speaker 1: do one thing, and that's to create eight and you
Speaker 1: have to allow the freedom for talent to create, always
Speaker 1: knowing that you can maybe just go back if if
Speaker 1: you think it's going too far left field, you can say,
Speaker 1: you know what, guys, it was it was god girls,
Speaker 1: whatever you can it was better like five minutes ago.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to there and continue from there. That
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And it was funny because at
Speaker 1: one point I did not realize I had got this
Speaker 1: from from George and Gus. And one day after the
Speaker 1: success of with David, David was doing an interview with
Speaker 1: the BBC and they asked him about working with me
Speaker 1: and he said that ken's my George Martin, and I
Speaker 1: hit the roof. I was I felt offended that he
Speaker 1: had compared me to George Martin, because what did George.
Speaker 1: I didn't see what George Martin really did? What he
Speaker 1: didn't tell him anything what to do, and it was
Speaker 1: it was something like that, and it was actually it's
Speaker 1: just I realized, but that is how I worked the
Speaker 1: same as George. It's I'm better. I know, I'm better
Speaker 1: at saying no than I am coming up with specific
Speaker 1: ideas and that with working with the Beatles, that was
Speaker 1: very much so. It became George's place as well. It
Speaker 1: was they had their own minds and you would go
Speaker 1: along with it. You'd allow them to try everything and
Speaker 1: then sort of cut back when it wasn't working. Was
Speaker 1: much the same with with Gus. Everything as a producer
Speaker 1: I learned from from George and Gus. As an engineer,
Speaker 1: the Beatles sessions were the greatest training I could possibly
Speaker 1: have because here I was working with the band. And
Speaker 1: I have to say you mentioned that my first job
Speaker 1: as an assistant engineer was with the Beatles. Well, my
Speaker 1: first job as an engineer sitting behind the mixing console
Speaker 1: was also with the Beatles. I never sat behind the
Speaker 1: console before, I'd never pushed up a favor before. I
Speaker 1: had absolutely no idea what I was doing, and I
Speaker 1: was there. I was with the biggest band in the
Speaker 1: bloody world. Yeah. I won't go any further as the
Speaker 1: feelings that were going on within my stomach at that point.
Speaker 1: But it finished up being the greatest training I could
Speaker 1: possibly have because here I was with a band that
Speaker 1: had no monetary problems. Thus they had no no sort
Speaker 1: of timing problems. It did. They could take as long
Speaker 1: as they wanted with everything, and it was a band
Speaker 1: that wanted everything to sound different every time. Uh So
Speaker 1: you'd get a piano sound on one for one track,
Speaker 1: and then then once it's sounding completely different on the
Speaker 1: next track. That that kind of thing, and that that
Speaker 1: gave you an amazing amount of freedom to experiment, and
Speaker 1: they had no problems with that. That's what they wanted.
Speaker 1: And there was always that thing at the back of
Speaker 1: your mind that you could completely screw something up, used
Speaker 1: completely the wrong mikes, the wrong eq it put it
Speaker 1: in the wrong place, just all of that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: and there was as much chance of them coming up
Speaker 1: the stairs and saying that sounds like shit, I don't
Speaker 1: like it. As there was them coming upstairs listening to
Speaker 1: it and says, m that sounds like ship. But I
Speaker 1: love it. We'll use it. And just just the freedom
Speaker 1: that gets that gives you as someone trying to learn
Speaker 1: their gig. It's incredible and no one will ever have
Speaker 1: the experience. I had to learn what they're doing. It was.
Speaker 1: It was just phenomenal. Your first song that you you
Speaker 1: engineered with them as a full engineer was I am
Speaker 1: a Walrus, right, which I mean is just all over
Speaker 1: the place in terms of all the different techniques and
Speaker 1: sounds flying in and having the third program from the
Speaker 1: radio come in with King Lear. I mean, it's just it.
Speaker 1: That's just such a prime example I think of all
Speaker 1: the different things you can try. Yeah, I didn't do
Speaker 1: the basic track on that Jeff Emrick did before he
Speaker 1: he quit. I did. I did the orchestral over dubber,
Speaker 1: mixed it and that side of it. Now, the very
Speaker 1: first session I did with them was to try and
Speaker 1: record your mother should know. They had already gone to
Speaker 1: another studio and would recorded a version of the song there,
Speaker 1: but Paul wanted to try a different arrangement, So that's
Speaker 1: what we did that particular day, my first ever session,
Speaker 1: and luckily the arrangement didn't work, So the fact that
Speaker 1: I didn't know what the hell I was doing didn't
Speaker 1: really matter that much of the first session. But then
Speaker 1: the next session was my first ever orchestral session, and
Speaker 1: that was im no worus And yeah, it was bad
Speaker 1: enough with the biggest band in the world. But when
Speaker 1: it's the biggest band in the world with a large
Speaker 1: orchestra in the studio, Ah yeah, yeah, no, better way
Speaker 1: to learn, I guess not. Yeah, be careful what you
Speaker 1: wish for, you might get it. It was one of
Speaker 1: those situations. You had worked as an engineer on David's
Speaker 1: earlier albums like The Man Who Sold the World and
Speaker 1: The Space Out of the Album, and they were produced
Speaker 1: by Tony Visconti, who, in addition to being the producer,
Speaker 1: was also sort of a musical director and David's bass
Speaker 1: player when he was putting together the team for Hunky Dorry.
Speaker 1: Do you think he was drawn to you because of
Speaker 1: your background working with George Martin and being more of
Speaker 1: a facilitator of sonic ideas rather than getting in the
Speaker 1: weeds about the music. Do you think that attracted you
Speaker 1: to Bowie at the time? Very very much. So it
Speaker 1: was when when I worked with David on the Space
Speaker 1: Odyssey album or Man a Man of Words, man of music,
Speaker 1: whatever you wanted to call it, uh, and then on
Speaker 1: Man Who Sold the World, I felt it Although it
Speaker 1: was down as being David Bowie's album, I didn't think
Speaker 1: that he had that much to do with it. He
Speaker 1: wrote the songs and he sang them, but everything else
Speaker 1: was very much Tony. And I think that it's a
Speaker 1: part of me that thinks that David had seen success
Speaker 1: with Space Oddity, which was with Gus and was very
Speaker 1: much David's ideas and it was successful. Then he went
Speaker 1: away from his ideas. It became more of Tonies and
Speaker 1: it wasn't successful. So I I think that David was
Speaker 1: I had put himself in the position it's either put
Speaker 1: up or shut up kind of thing. It's if I
Speaker 1: have faith in my in what I'm capable of doing
Speaker 1: and have faith in my own ideas, I've got to
Speaker 1: do it myself. And it was that thing that he
Speaker 1: said to me I was working with him doing a
Speaker 1: friend of his, which I think it may have finally
Speaker 1: came out as Arnold Corns. I'm not sure if that
Speaker 1: was one of the sessions or not, but during one
Speaker 1: of the breaks they happened to mention to him that
Speaker 1: I wanted to move more into production. I had it
Speaker 1: just as an engineer, and he said, well, I've just
Speaker 1: signed new management deal. They want to put me into
Speaker 1: the studio to record an album so that they can
Speaker 1: shop a deal. I was going to produce it myself.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm capable of doing that. Were
Speaker 1: you co produced with me? So an instantaneous yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: And we went in there neither of us having really
Speaker 1: done it before, and I think we were both very nervous.
Speaker 1: But as we did more and more, and as our
Speaker 1: ideas that sounds and everything were coming more and more together,
Speaker 1: it was giving us more and more confidence to go
Speaker 1: down much further. We were being proved right to ourselves,
Speaker 1: and I think it's one of those things. It didn't sell,
Speaker 1: but that didn't matter. We had proved to ourselves what
Speaker 1: we could do. And then it moved carried on into
Speaker 1: into Zigi, which was recorded a very short time after.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really interesting to me to think that
Speaker 1: when you first started working with David as an engineer
Speaker 1: for the for the prior album. Your impressions of him,
Speaker 1: at least music weren't that great, A nice guy to
Speaker 1: some talent, but you know fair to say you didn't
Speaker 1: think that he was going to be David Bowie superstar.
Speaker 1: When did that change for you? After one of the reasons,
Speaker 1: I was so quick to jump on, Yeah, of course
Speaker 1: I'll co produce with you. That would be great. There
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, this isn't now. My My prior
Speaker 1: experiences had been working with the biggest band in the
Speaker 1: world on the first off, and it was that, my god,
Speaker 1: every mistake I make might be heard by by hundreds
Speaker 1: and thousands of whatever. And so suddenly here I was
Speaker 1: being asked to co produce an album, and I thought, well, great,
Speaker 1: now I can make mistakes and no one's going to
Speaker 1: hear them because he's never going to be that big.
Speaker 1: And it was a couple of weeks later that he
Speaker 1: came round to my house with with Angie, his wife,
Speaker 1: and his publisher Bob Grace, and we were going through
Speaker 1: demos for what songs we would do on Hunky Dory,
Speaker 1: and it probably just two songs in Suddenly I realized
Speaker 1: that this guy was a hell of a lot more
Speaker 1: talented than I actually got from him on the first
Speaker 1: two albums that I worked with him on, and that
Speaker 1: this could be a huge album. He could be a superstar,
Speaker 1: and hell, here I go again. It's it's something that's
Speaker 1: possibly up to two thousands of people were here again.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it changed hearing a couple of demos. Now,
Speaker 1: who was David influenced by at that stage when you
Speaker 1: first went into the studio to work on Hunky Dorry.
Speaker 1: Was there a discussion of who he was listening to
Speaker 1: or what do he wanted? The songs that sound like
Speaker 1: none whatsoever totally fresh? Did that? Yeah? It was. It
Speaker 1: was just we were going into the chord of songs.
Speaker 1: And one of the great things with David was his
Speaker 1: ability to pick teams or put teams together that would
Speaker 1: give him what he was looking for at that given point. Musically,
Speaker 1: the team of Woody Woman's, Trevor Boulder, Mick Ronson and
Speaker 1: myself and on Hungry Dorry, Rick Wakeman then later Mike Garson,
Speaker 1: they were perfect teams for what he was after at
Speaker 1: that point. Just but he then towards the end, after Pinups,
Speaker 1: I did another session with him u supposedly for Diamond Dogs.
Speaker 1: It was never used for some for Diamond Dogs in
Speaker 1: the end, but it became obvious when we were finishing
Speaker 1: that off that he was already moving to more of
Speaker 1: an American sound, because when we were mixing it, he
Speaker 1: kept on influencing. My recollection is that it was Barry White,
Speaker 1: but it was it was that Philadelphia gamble half type
Speaker 1: of sound that he wanted to try and emulate, and
Speaker 1: he'd never do that with English musicians. And he realized that,
Speaker 1: so he formed a new team in the States to
Speaker 1: do the whole thing White Duke and the more American
Speaker 1: style of things. And he was so great at finding
Speaker 1: those those teams. And the way he would work is
Speaker 1: that he would play the song, teach you, just teach
Speaker 1: you the song, and then leave you all to to
Speaker 1: do what you do best. He felt totally confident in
Speaker 1: the team that he had put together to give him
Speaker 1: what he was looking for and if they were left
Speaker 1: to their own devices. Something I was surprised to learn
Speaker 1: about him for somebody who seems like such a perfectionist,
Speaker 1: that he wasn't a studio hound really like he had
Speaker 1: very short patients from what I read for forgetting only
Speaker 1: a couple of takes and having to get it right
Speaker 1: on those takes. Otherwise he would lose his patience for it,
Speaker 1: which is it's very fascinating to me. Well, you have
Speaker 1: to prepare into mind. He was, as far as I'm concerned,
Speaker 1: that the best studio performer I've ever worked with. Of
Speaker 1: the four albums I could co produced with him, of
Speaker 1: the vocals were one take beginning to end, uh, and
Speaker 1: that's it. I would get the level the sound at
Speaker 1: the beginning, having seen a little so I could get that.
Speaker 1: I then take the take back to the beginning hit recalled,
Speaker 1: and what he sang that one time through time is
Speaker 1: what you hear still here today and there Bear in
Speaker 1: mind there was no put auto tuning, there was no
Speaker 1: moving around. It was just a straightforward performance. Now, when
Speaker 1: when you know you're that good, when you know you
Speaker 1: can do that, I can understand why you might get
Speaker 1: a little touchy if the musicians you're working with are
Speaker 1: going take after take after take. So and he got
Speaker 1: bored in the studio. He wasn't over keen on being
Speaker 1: in the studio all the time. He get bored very easily,
Speaker 1: and so like Trevor and Woody, they were always on
Speaker 1: the edge of their seat. They knew, we've got to
Speaker 1: get this the next take. Otherwise he's just going to
Speaker 1: say forget it, it's not working and move on to
Speaker 1: something else. So that that, to me was great because
Speaker 1: it added a certain amount of excitement to the way
Speaker 1: they were playing, because they knew they had to get
Speaker 1: it right. Do you feel that the best singers almost
Speaker 1: have to be part actor in a way to be
Speaker 1: able to put that emotion across? I mean, I think
Speaker 1: of the opening track five years where, especially towards the end,
Speaker 1: and I know you've played during some of your speaking engagements,
Speaker 1: the the strip back just session of him singing and
Speaker 1: you hear him breaking down in tears. It's just incredible
Speaker 1: to hear. I mean, do you feel that those are
Speaker 1: the best singers have to have an element of the
Speaker 1: actor in them. I wouldn't say an actor as such.
Speaker 1: David was definitely an actor, uh, because I think you
Speaker 1: can you have to have something like that if you're
Speaker 1: changing your personalities around them. These different characters as much
Speaker 1: as he did, they were all part of him. But
Speaker 1: I think any great actor says that anything that any
Speaker 1: role they played, they're taking from from themselves a little.
Speaker 1: But I think there there are a lot of singers,
Speaker 1: great performers that it's them just wholeheartedly. It's not just
Speaker 1: a part of them, it's them giving. And in that respect,
Speaker 1: I don't think he's acting. It was. We just did
Speaker 1: what we did. We put it together slowly but surely,
Speaker 1: and we're not that slowly because considering it only took
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks to record the album, it was
Speaker 1: pretty damn quick compared to modern boy standards. It's amazing
Speaker 1: me not only the speed that you did that album,
Speaker 1: but just there was just a few weeks between Hunky
Speaker 1: Dory and Ziggy and yet they still to me, they sound,
Speaker 1: for the most part, dramatically different. It's it's so incredible
Speaker 1: just to speed that they were evolving. Yeah. Well, but
Speaker 1: the interesting thing I I just see them as part
Speaker 1: one and part two of one album. Yes, there is
Speaker 1: obviously Ziggy is is more rock and wrong than than
Speaker 1: Hunky Dory. But if you take Queen Bitch, which was
Speaker 1: on Hunky Dory, that fits perfect, that would have fitted
Speaker 1: perfectly on Ziggy Stardust, and you take it Ain't Easy,
Speaker 1: which we recorded to Hunky Dory didn't use it for
Speaker 1: that and then used it on on Ziggy. So it's
Speaker 1: to me that there all part of one thing, and
Speaker 1: they just came out as part one and part two.
Speaker 1: What do you think of the whole notion of Ziggy
Speaker 1: Stardust being, you know, a concept album with a storyline
Speaker 1: and so forth. Was that something that was discussed at
Speaker 1: all while you're working on it, or just something that's
Speaker 1: fell together outwards Now that that's people reading reading things
Speaker 1: into it, it's if you consider that the main thing
Speaker 1: really that holds a concept album together of that being
Speaker 1: a concept album was the track Starman, and that was
Speaker 1: thrown in later because we'd recorded Chuck Berry's Round, Round
Speaker 1: and Round and that was in exactly the same place
Speaker 1: on the album where Starman finished up, and we handed
Speaker 1: the album in with Round and Round there and our
Speaker 1: CIA the record company said they didn't hear a single,
Speaker 1: So we went back in recorded Starman and put it
Speaker 1: in exactly the same place, and then suddenly everyone once
Speaker 1: that happened, that was the basis really for being a
Speaker 1: concept album. Now that was never discussed. And this is
Speaker 1: going to sound like an obvious statement, but it blows
Speaker 1: my mind. Two there was no pro tools, no plug ins.
Speaker 1: You had to get the sound in the studio, which
Speaker 1: requires a degree of forethought and advanced decision making on
Speaker 1: your part, which is just really unheard of today. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating to think of what the album would
Speaker 1: have been like if if it if it had digital
Speaker 1: tools available. I don't think it would have been any better.
Speaker 1: Well yes, yes, quite possibly. But now I now, I'm
Speaker 1: a senior lecturer at a university up here in Leeds
Speaker 1: Leads Beckett University, and one of the things that I
Speaker 1: try and do with the students when I'm speaking with
Speaker 1: them is teach them what we used to do. And
Speaker 1: one of the main things was make decisions. No one
Speaker 1: these days wants to make a decision. They will record
Speaker 1: eleven guitar solos and leave it for someone else later
Speaker 1: on down the line to make the decision which one
Speaker 1: it's going to be. We couldn't work that way. We
Speaker 1: were working on sixteen track. We had to fit everything
Speaker 1: in on sixteen tracks, and so yeah, you you had
Speaker 1: to You had to make decisions as you were going.
Speaker 1: You couldn't leave it for later for other people to
Speaker 1: make decisions. And that that that led to albums being
Speaker 1: done much quicker and quite honestly, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of them much better. You mentioned guitar solos, which leads
Speaker 1: me right in to something I've been trying to ask
Speaker 1: a question for for all my guitarists gearhead friends out there,
Speaker 1: and myself. I'm dying a note too. What was Rono's
Speaker 1: guitar setup? Mcronson's guitar is just one of the great
Speaker 1: car sounds. Oh, it's very simple. He's Les Paul. He
Speaker 1: had a hundred what marshal and he went to a
Speaker 1: cry baby wah wah pedal. And the way we'd get
Speaker 1: his sounds is that he'd start off on with the
Speaker 1: wah wah pedal on the top and he'd slowly move
Speaker 1: it down and we okay, stop there, and that would
Speaker 1: be the sound that we we'd use. Dead easy. He's
Speaker 1: easy if you're if you're mcros it helps if you're micronson.
Speaker 1: I guess that's the guess the point. Yeah, tell me
Speaker 1: more about his role in the sessions, because it really
Speaker 1: seems like like the unsung hero in a lot of ways. Oh. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I don't think he got the credit that he deserved.
Speaker 1: David was obviously an exceeding talent, and I think of
Speaker 1: he would have made it one way or another, but
Speaker 1: I don't think he would have made it quite as big,
Speaker 1: quite so soon if he hadn't had Rono by the
Speaker 1: side of him. I think Rono was that important. We
Speaker 1: were all sort of there's a there's a place that
Speaker 1: musicians get into where they're almost of one mind. They
Speaker 1: can be playing along and someone will make a mistake
Speaker 1: and everyone will go with the mistake. There is just
Speaker 1: one one mind, one brain, controlling all of them. And
Speaker 1: it was very much like that. I think in the
Speaker 1: studio we hardly had to say anything to each other.
Speaker 1: We knew what had to happen. And Rono especially he
Speaker 1: was it was really good. He was another one of
Speaker 1: those like much like David with his vocals, he was
Speaker 1: very much we could get it in one take, and
Speaker 1: he always knew what was required. And then of course
Speaker 1: on top of that, there was his incredible string arrangements
Speaker 1: orchestral arrangements. He came into that having never done it before,
Speaker 1: so much like much like past David and I with
Speaker 1: the production side of it, there were no rules, so
Speaker 1: he was coming up with things that I don't think
Speaker 1: more established arrangers would have come up with to me
Speaker 1: that a lot of them are brilliant. I love his
Speaker 1: arrangements so much. I got to ask you that the
Speaker 1: piano on Life on Mars and on Ziggy and Beyond
Speaker 1: is that the same? I think it's Beckstein that that
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney used on Hey Jude, and I think Neilsen
Speaker 1: used on Without You. That's the same as the Tried piano. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's that's a it is? Yeah, yeah, if only it
Speaker 1: was still around in its original form. I heard the story.
Speaker 1: It's second hand. I don't know if it's true, but
Speaker 1: I've heard it from several people connected with Tried, and
Speaker 1: that eventually they decided it had to be re strong,
Speaker 1: so it was be it was being carried out of
Speaker 1: the studio. Now to get out of the studio up
Speaker 1: it was basement level, so you had to climb upstairs.
Speaker 1: And the way I heard it was that one of
Speaker 1: the movers dropped it and the soundboard cracked. And yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah right, I'm actually doubled over right now as you're
Speaker 1: telling me this, just like, oh my god, yeah, now
Speaker 1: that that was an amazing piano. Every did you say,
Speaker 1: Elton Queen Super Tramp, Beetle's go On and On, Carlie Simon,
Speaker 1: Harry Nielsen. Wow, I wonder where it is today? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do. The thing is interesting enough. I did an
Speaker 1: interview the other day with Rick Wakeman, who played it,
Speaker 1: and he said that no one it was a rental piano.
Speaker 1: It wasn't owned by Tried, They rented it from somewhere else.
Speaker 1: And all of the files, I think he said, there
Speaker 1: was a fire and all of the files were were burned,
Speaker 1: So no one knows the number on that piano. So
Speaker 1: there are like three or four people at the moment
Speaker 1: that are saying they own that piano, and no one
Speaker 1: can prove if they're who's right and who's wrong because
Speaker 1: no one knows the the number of the piano. Wow,
Speaker 1: I think I think that's the plot of the next
Speaker 1: Indiana Jones movie. That's really Yeah, that's fascinating, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: I mean, just all the sounds you're able to get
Speaker 1: in that that Trident room. I mean, and and of
Speaker 1: course you know drums being you know kind of your
Speaker 1: your your hallmark, your trademark sound, which is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite sounds of that record. And it's funny to
Speaker 1: me that. What do you Women's E was not a
Speaker 1: fan of his drum sounds on those sessions, which still
Speaker 1: cracks me up. No, no, you, And look I I
Speaker 1: look back on it now and I know exactly what
Speaker 1: he means. But it's it's it comes down to what
Speaker 1: would work on that music at that time, and my
Speaker 1: my feeling at that time. It worked perfectly if the
Speaker 1: drum sounded was different, if the if the drum sound
Speaker 1: was more of what he was after, which I know
Speaker 1: exactly what he was after. No, I don't think the
Speaker 1: rest of it would have fitted together quite as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree, I mean it was, it was. It served
Speaker 1: the tracker perfectly. It's still funny to me. And what
Speaker 1: did he say? He sounded like um complex packets. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's what I gave him when we started Ziggy
Speaker 1: instead of a drum. Yeah. I when we were going
Speaker 1: going to start doing it, the roadie that brought in
Speaker 1: his drum kit, so I had to set it up.
Speaker 1: I said, okay, hold on, put it all away again,
Speaker 1: and I sent my assistant engineering out to buy as
Speaker 1: many different sized packets of corn flegs that he could
Speaker 1: find and come back and we set up a whole
Speaker 1: drum kit with symbols and everything. Everything was exactly right
Speaker 1: except for the drums. It was all complex packets. Did
Speaker 1: he did he? Did you get a kick out of that? Oh? Yes,
Speaker 1: oh yeah? What was that? Yeah? Well I wish I
Speaker 1: wish I'd got a picture of it. We didn't have
Speaker 1: We didn't have phones that you could take pictures with
Speaker 1: back then. Was there a good sense of camaraderie with
Speaker 1: with the guys in the band at that time around
Speaker 1: the Yeah? Absolutely, yeah, oh yeah. We were a team
Speaker 1: and we had we we worked hard, but it was
Speaker 1: a lot of fun doing it all. Absolutely. A little
Speaker 1: later when you worked with with David again on on
Speaker 1: a Laddin saying that was really uh his first album
Speaker 1: made when he was a bona fide superstar having just
Speaker 1: come back from America. What were those sessions like? Had
Speaker 1: he changed at all? Had the dynamic with the group
Speaker 1: changed at all? Because I know that was the last
Speaker 1: one that he made, but with the Spiders from Mars, Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: there was a slight change. More. I think he just
Speaker 1: gained confidence than anything because of the success we started
Speaker 1: it off in New York and that that just in
Speaker 1: general was slightly different. It wasn't a situation that any
Speaker 1: of us were used to, especially for me, because I
Speaker 1: always engineer my own productions. Only the for the sessions
Speaker 1: in New York, I wasn't allowed to do that because
Speaker 1: our c A studios where we were working were heavily,
Speaker 1: really heavy union, and because of the union, I wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed to touch anything. So I had to sit at
Speaker 1: the end of the mixing console just as a regular producer,
Speaker 1: not as the engineer producer. And I found that a
Speaker 1: lot more, a lot harder, And so the New York
Speaker 1: sessions were slightly strange for me. But then once we
Speaker 1: got back to Triton and we got back working on
Speaker 1: it again and completing it, it was easy. And then
Speaker 1: pin ups in in France. What were those sessions like?
Speaker 1: They sound very it sounds fascinating. They were strange, most definitely.
Speaker 1: Let's say, said David had fired the spiders and then
Speaker 1: suddenly Ronald was still part of it all. Ronald knew
Speaker 1: what was going on when the firing took place. He
Speaker 1: knew before the other guys did that they were going
Speaker 1: to be canned. Uh. But what happened was David had
Speaker 1: to ask Trevor Boulder to come back because the original
Speaker 1: bass player suddenly pulled out of the project. So that
Speaker 1: was very weird bringing back someone that you just fired
Speaker 1: bringing them back in at the last minute. Of course
Speaker 1: that's going to be strange. Then with the new drum or, Gamesley,
Speaker 1: who great drum right worked with him in the past,
Speaker 1: great drummer. It was just different and there was very much.
Speaker 1: I my wife was my wife at the time was
Speaker 1: pregnant with twins and she was due to give birth
Speaker 1: whilst eyes over there, we took a day's break and
Speaker 1: I took a flight back to England for the birth
Speaker 1: and then flew back to continue work. Uh, so that
Speaker 1: there was very It was strange. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of things going on. David was already I think he
Speaker 1: wanted to move on to something completely different. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that not my favorite album. I think of all the
Speaker 1: albums that that you you've worked on with David either
Speaker 1: as an engineer, co producer, and then there's so many.
Speaker 1: What is it about Ziggy that you think just just
Speaker 1: gives it this longevity and gives it this this the
Speaker 1: sense that really makes it seem to stick out for
Speaker 1: most people. What do you think that is well, first
Speaker 1: and foremost that the thing originally is it? The album,
Speaker 1: the track Starman and the performance on top of the
Speaker 1: pops over here changed so much in people. In young
Speaker 1: people's minds, they suddenly felt that they could be different
Speaker 1: and it was okay so and that motivated so many musicians. Two,
Speaker 1: I can do that. I can be a musician. I
Speaker 1: think very much like the Beatles in the sixties that
Speaker 1: suddenly it was everyone wanted to form a band, and
Speaker 1: I believed that they could become as big as the Beatles.
Speaker 1: I think much the same way in the seventies with
Speaker 1: with David and it started. It all started with with
Speaker 1: Ziggy and with Starman uh And I think for me personally,
Speaker 1: I think Ziggy holds together as an album much better
Speaker 1: than any of the others, Although there are tracks on
Speaker 1: the other albums that I prefer to some of the
Speaker 1: tracks on zig I know that's that's such a boring question.
Speaker 1: But you but you have a favorite that you worked
Speaker 1: on with him? A favorite? No, I I would say
Speaker 1: there are. There are two very specific ones, and both
Speaker 1: of them come down to piano, and one is Life
Speaker 1: on Mars with Rick Wegman, and the other one is
Speaker 1: a Ladd Insane with Mike garson incredible piano parts. I
Speaker 1: just that and and so completely different. And that's that's
Speaker 1: part of David. What I was saying earlier about David
Speaker 1: putting together a team that would put across what he
Speaker 1: wanted to put across. Rick Weightman could never have done
Speaker 1: what Garson did on that album. And I don't know
Speaker 1: that Garson would have done what Rick Weightman did on
Speaker 1: the Huntry Dorry album. Yeah. I love Rick Wakeman's kind
Speaker 1: of broke style flourishes, and I love My Garson's like
Speaker 1: almost like cracked ymar Republic cabaret style twisted piano sounds.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're just totally unique and totally him and
Speaker 1: totally special. And you're right there, both brilliant in their
Speaker 1: own unique ways. Yes, Do you have a a sort
Speaker 1: of snapshot in your mind that kind of sums up
Speaker 1: your whole experience with David? Is there there are a
Speaker 1: moment or a memory that that comes to mind that
Speaker 1: always makes you smile, always makes you laugh, that makes
Speaker 1: me laugh. Yeah, This must have been when we were
Speaker 1: working on a lad inside and all of the fan
Speaker 1: mail has started to come in, and someone from from
Speaker 1: David's management office must have brought along a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of fan mails for David to go through, and he
Speaker 1: picked out one. He said, here, Mick, this is this
Speaker 1: is for you, and he started to read it and
Speaker 1: Dr Mick, I love you. I want to and starts
Speaker 1: to go through all of these lurid things that this
Speaker 1: person wanted to do to Mick Ronson. And as as
Speaker 1: as David is reading it to Rono, Rono was getting
Speaker 1: more Oh yeah, oh I like that, Oh wow, And
Speaker 1: then David says love Michael. Rono's George just dropped off.
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