1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and today we're giving you an episode 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: that combines two important topics, one a listener request to 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: talk more about tattoos, and to an episode honoring the 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: fact that it is Breast cancer Awareness Month. And so 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: in that vein, Kristin and I are going to give 8 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: you a rundown of mystectomy tattoos and how women have 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: totally reclaimed the tattoo and their bodies in an effort 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: to sort of redefine themselves after going through such a 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: traumatic experience. Yeah, and if you want to know more 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: details just about the history of tattoos, we did do 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: a staff I've Never Told You podcast so only focused 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: on tattoos a while back, which you can find in 15 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: our podcast archive over at stuff Mom Never Told You 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: dot com. But we will give you a quick historical 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: primer on women in tattoos. And not surprisingly, as you 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: probably assumed, humans have been to touring themselves for a 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: very very very very long time. That's right. As most 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: things do on the podcast, Christian, this goes back to 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: the ancient Middle East Um in March, scientists actually found 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: a tattoo on the mummified remains of a woman who 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: lived in a Christian community in Sudant hundred years ago. 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: And she was just one example of a person from 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: that era tattooing a religious symbol on themselves or you know, 26 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: somebody else probably did a tour honestly um to both 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: signify their faith and also to invoke the particular saint 28 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: who symbol they tattooed on them selves. And in case 29 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: people are wondering, that thirteen hundred year old tattoo was 30 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: an ancient Greek symbol for the archangel Michael on her 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: inner thigh. Oh well, and reading about that ancient tattoo 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: and the fact that so many tattoos have been found 33 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: on mummies from that era, what I thought was so 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: interesting was that there is a gender divide even back then. 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: But it's not the gender divide you think there weren't 36 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of tatted up pharaohs. Necessarily, a lot of 37 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: the tattoos and the evidence of tattoos that has been 38 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: found have been found on women. So for instance, at 39 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: this site on the River Nile in Egypt, there were 40 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: all of these tattooed mummies of women who also had 41 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: those thigh tattoos, but their thigh tattoos symbolize the god Best, 42 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: who was associated with music and dance, so archaeologists thought 43 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,279 Speaker 1: that perhaps they might have been and dancers or musicians. 44 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: And there is also some implicit eroticism symbolized by Best, 45 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: which jumped out to me too, because even though I 46 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: feel like this line of thinking is fading, his tattoos 47 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: become more and more conventional for women being tattooed. For 48 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: a long time it did seem to hold sort of 49 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: um or at least people would make sexy assumptions about 50 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: women with tattoos. Yeah, it's interesting as you move through history, 51 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: um the the ups and downs, the peaks and valleys 52 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: of our perceptions of women with tattoos um because, for instance, 53 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, it was totally an upper class 54 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: fad to be an elite lady who has a small 55 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: tattoo in someplace that could easily be hidden. But by 56 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, tattoos were totally stigmatized, especially among 57 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: women who were considered loose if you could see their tattoos. 58 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: But also the early twentieth century there were a number 59 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: of women who were not only covered in tattoos, but 60 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: we're also tattoo artists. And one of my favorite figures 61 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: from that time is a woman named Maud Wagner, and 62 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: you can google image her name to see a portrait 63 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: of her showing off all of her like full body tattoos, 64 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: not on her face, but neck down tattoos that she has. 65 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: And this was in the early nineteen hundreds, and she 66 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: actually traded a date with the sky Gus Wagner, who 67 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: became her husband, who was a tattoo artist. She traded 68 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: a date with him for a tattoo. Yeah. I just 69 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: love that kind of stuff. I mean it became a 70 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: love match exactly. Well, he surreptitiously just tattooed his name 71 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: on her arms. He was like, well, no, you're gonna 72 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: marry me. Okay, I made that part up. But certainly 73 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: the sight of a woman like Maud Wagner with full 74 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: sleeves and a chest covered in tattoos would have stood 75 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: out in public even at this time. She would not 76 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: have been considered an everyday kind of woman, right And 77 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, basically, if you had that many tattoos, 78 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: you were probably employed by a freak show or a 79 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: circus where you, as a tattooed lady, could make a 80 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: lot more money than men could with all their tattoos, 81 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: because it would be a combo of sexy lady peep 82 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: show coupled with WHOA, she's a freak, she's covered in tattoos. 83 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: And this is also a good time to remind people, 84 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: Caroline that we did entire podcast as well on women 85 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: and freak shows. That's right, listen to um. But also 86 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: around this same time, there is still clearly that sexual 87 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: stigma attached to women with tattoos, even just one tattoo. 88 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: For instance, in the late nineteen twenties, a prosecutor in 89 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: a rape case requested that the whole case be dropped 90 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: when he found out that the woman who had been 91 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: raped had a tattoo, because and the judge ended up 92 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: releasing the men they had rested in connection with the 93 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: rape because they said, oh, well, she had a butterfly 94 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: on her legs, so naturally they just kind of mistook 95 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: her for a prostitute or someone who wouldn't mind being 96 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: non consensually violated, right, basically saying that they were invited 97 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: by the visible tattoo um. Moving into World War Two, 98 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: tattoos fall even more out of favor because of the 99 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: horrible connotation and connection with the Holocaust and concentration camps. 100 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: But when you move past World War Two and the 101 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: post war period and into the nineties seventies, the popularity 102 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: of tattoos definitely starts to rebound because women are shedding 103 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: that whole connotation that tattoos equal being promiscuous. Although during 104 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: this time it's definitely still linked to being part of 105 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: the counterculture. Yeah, and now it's becoming more and more normal. 106 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: There was one tattoos scholar that we were reading who 107 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: was talking about how tattoos have become completely middle class. Obviously, 108 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: you're not a freak show if you have, uh, you know, 109 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: full sleeves or if you're a woman with lots and 110 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: lots of tattoos. Nor is it something that if you 111 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: are a wealthy person you have some kind of secret 112 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: tottoo as well, although maybe you do, but it's not 113 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: a big deal. It wouldn't be like a huge surprise. 114 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: It's more accessory than anything. At this point. I feel 115 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: like if you go on Pinterest and look at tattoos, 116 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: there's like a bajillion different pinboards about just like those 117 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: really skinny, Like I feel like a lot of people 118 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: are getting like bows and arrows or like arrows tattooed 119 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: on themselves, like very skinny, very artistic, sketch like tattoos, 120 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: which is cool. I'm not like judging. I'm just saying that, 121 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: Like the fact that they're on Pinterest, I think says 122 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: a lot well. And also the fact that they're on Pinterest. 123 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: And as we've talked about in our episode on Pinterest, 124 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: I'm basically just promoting all of our podcasts in this 125 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: podcast and meeting a little podcast meta year. Um. Since 126 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: Pinterest is overwhelmingly women, it's appropriate that there's sony to 127 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: two pin boards because more women now in the US 128 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: have tattoos than men, and that was started for the 129 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: first time in twelve with twenty three percent of women 130 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: having tattoos versus nineteen percent of men. And that's compared 131 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: to in two thousand three when only fifteen percent of 132 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: women had tattoos compared to sixteen percent of men. So 133 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: all of us are getting more ink, but more women 134 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: are getting more ink than men, and we're also getting 135 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: more removed. Sixty of tattoo removal requests are from women, 136 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: according to a survey from the Archives of Dermatology, and 137 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: most of these women are getting inked around age twenty. 138 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: So you're you're in college of feeling good, you're liberated, 139 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: You're gonna get some tattoos. So now I have to 140 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: ask you the question A lot of podcast listeners want 141 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: to know, Caroline, do you have any tattoos? I sure don't. 142 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: I'm out against him. I've thought a lot about getting one. 143 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: I just don't know what I would get. Yeah, yeah, 144 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: but I know you do, yes, And I think a 145 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: lot of listeners know that I do as well, because 146 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: I've posted the picture of the anchor that I have 147 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: tattooed on my left wrist on our Instagram if you 148 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: want to follow us there and check it out. And 149 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: I also have a boat tattoo as well. And I 150 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: really want lately, Caroline, in the past few months and 151 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: this podcast has only fueled my fire even more, I 152 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: want some new ink. Yeah, what do you think It's 153 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: still the nautical thing or like something different? I'm thinking 154 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: full back piece portrait of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Love it, 155 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: you know, And and I'll just get her collar tattooed 156 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: around my neck A tattoos you beau? Ye, oh man, 157 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: that'd be amazing. Don't worry, listeners, I'm not actually going 158 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: to get that portrait. Although I did look around the 159 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: internet to see if anyone had gotten a notorious RBG tattoo. 160 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: Haven't found one yet. I'm surprised. So so we'll we'll 161 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: just need our listeners who inevitably do have Ruth Bader 162 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: Ginsburg tattoos to send us pictures. Yeah, if you know 163 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: anyone who does, please let me know. But the whole 164 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: purpose behind tattoos, while it is becoming like such a common, normal, 165 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: middle class aesthetic choice, there is a reason behind doing 166 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: it that surpasses just aesthetics. It's past just the cool factor. Um. 167 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: Michael Atkinson, who has done a lot of tattoo research 168 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: and is the author of Tattooed The Sociogenesis of a 169 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: Body Art, talks about the reasons behind tattoos in general. 170 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: He says that basically this body art and the tattooing 171 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: experience give young people feelings of greater control and authority 172 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: over their own lives. And I thought that was important 173 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: to pull out and point out because it will tie 174 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: in as we get through this episode tie in so 175 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: closely to why women who have experienced breast cancer and mostectomys. 176 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: That's the reasons that they give for a lot of 177 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: the tattoos that they get. And Million King and Katherine 178 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: Jones in their chapter why do People get Tattoos? In 179 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: the book Understanding Deviance, Connecting Classical and contemporary Perspectives looked 180 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: at women in particular and also found this theme of control. 181 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: They wrote, tattooing offers many women control over their own bodies. 182 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: Some have used the tattoo to challenge the limited roles 183 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: of wife and mother and to explore other ways to 184 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: define themselves. And this next part that they talk about 185 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: will tie in so much too with mystectomy tattoos. King 186 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: and Jones describe how the process of women getting tattoos 187 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: also for some helps them feel like they're reclaiming lost 188 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: or violated parts of themselves, and it's an especially important process, 189 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: they write for women healing from abuse or trauma. And 190 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: Margot Mifflin actually wrote the book on Women and Tattoos, 191 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: which if you are a woman who has and I 192 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: was asking us to talk about tattoos, I highly recommend 193 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: you check out her book, which was just republished actually 194 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen, called Bodies of Subversion, A Secret 195 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: History of Women and the Tattoo, and she writes that 196 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: before she got started working on this book about tattoos 197 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: and side notes, she doesn't have any tattoos, which is 198 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: really interesting. She says, I saw that tattooing was an 199 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: amazing barometer of women's dreams and fears and passions at 200 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: that time, a period when body issues were at a 201 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: peak of controversy, at the end of the culture Wars, 202 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: and it made me wonder what women's tattoos revealed about themselves, 203 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: going back to the nineteenth century when European and American 204 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: women started getting inked. So clearly people have made the 205 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: connection between sort of what's going on in your life 206 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: and your mental and emotional space and what's going on 207 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: on your body when you get inked. Absolutely, and I 208 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: can just speak from personal experience that both of my 209 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: tattoos did feel empowering when I was doing it. They 210 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: also felt very painful, but they also felt empowering because 211 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: I can totally empathize with that sense of claiming your 212 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: body in a new kind of way. And we're going 213 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: to talk more about that when it comes to post 214 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: mastectomy tattoos. We come right back from a quick break 215 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: and now back to the show. So one way that 216 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: some women are finding those deeper meanings in tattoos and 217 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: that process of reclaiming their body and finding personal empowerment 218 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: through tattoos is where women who are getting tattoos post mostectomy. 219 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: And we're not just talking about in this case a 220 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: tattoo somewhere on your body commemorating beating cancer, which is 221 00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: also very common, but actually getting tattoos as alternatives to 222 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: getting reconstructive surgery or breast implants. Yeah. This was discussed 223 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: in Miss magazine in nine by writer Andre connors Um, 224 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: who talks about breast cancer itself being an invisible epidemic. 225 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: She says everyone looks quote unquote normal because they're wearing prostisus. 226 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: So the message does not get across to the world 227 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: that we were being killed off by breast cancer. And 228 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: the reason we quote her is because connors herself has 229 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: a rose tattoo over her mastectomy scar. And so this 230 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: is definitely another option for women and another way to 231 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: reclaim your body after the trauma of cancer and surgery, radiation, chemotherapy. Yeah, 232 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: And it's also interesting to see that she was saying 233 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: that in Fast forward to now not too long afterwards, 234 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: where there's so much awareness surrounding breast cancer, but a 235 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: lot of times the assumption is that if you have 236 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: a mastectomy, the primary choice for women is implants. And 237 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: there was actually a paper about this in the journal 238 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: Social Semiotics by Shelly Cobb and Susan Star in February, 239 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: and it talked about how the fact that implants are 240 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: often the sort of frame is like the only choice. 241 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: It's like are you going to get new breasts or 242 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: not get new breasts? That it plays into what they 243 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: call a makeover culture, of this dominant idea that if 244 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: you are a woman without breasts, then you aren't fully 245 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: a woman, right, and and that something as important and 246 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: earth shattering as going through cancer and losing your breast, 247 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: that it's somehow instead of being framed as the important 248 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: thing that it is, the important mile marker in your 249 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: life that it is, it's framed as like, hey, you 250 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: can get a new chest. Yeah, you can. You can 251 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: finally be a d cup that you've always wanted to be, 252 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: right exactly, But you know, I mean that's not obviously 253 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: to put down anyone who has gone through reconstructive surgery 254 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: or has opted for implants, because I mean, as should 255 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: be obvious from our podcast before our body image, we 256 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: know body image is a huge deal, especially after going 257 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: through trauma. And there was a study in or a 258 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: paper in the British Journal of Health Psychology in two 259 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: that talks about the mastectomy itself provoking a painful experience 260 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: of what they call body deconstruction. Basically something that's been 261 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: a part of you, that might have been a part 262 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: of your life as a mother, as a wife, as 263 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: someone who's both a caregiver and a sexual being suddenly 264 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: being taken from you and what that means for your 265 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: own body image and having to go through all of 266 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: those physical, emotional, social symbolic hurdles afterward. Yeah, And the 267 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: women that they've talked to who had undergone mostectomy is 268 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: either a single mastectomy or a double stectomy, used a 269 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: lot of similar language to describe what they often called 270 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: a feeling of being mutilated, of being kind of estranged 271 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: from their own body, and um also having to deal 272 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: with how it affected their relationships with their partners and 273 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: their relationships with their children and driving home the point 274 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: that it's obviously not so simple as well, you can 275 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: just you can just get these new ones, but it's 276 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: not quite you know, it's not the same, right that 277 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: basically talking about the identity crisis that can occur after 278 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: going through such trauma. Um. But in terms of getting 279 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: a mastectomy tattoo tying all of this together, um. One 280 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: fascinating figure in this whole discussion is inga Duncan Thornell, 281 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: who underwent a preventive double mistectomy in after her stepmother 282 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: died of breast cancer and her mother received her own 283 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: breast cancer diagnosed. This Yeah, Thornell talks about how she'd 284 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: already been through so much physical pain, didn't want to 285 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: deal with another surgery, didn't like the idea of implants 286 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: on a personal level, and so she got this tattoo 287 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: that took what two or three years to complete, And 288 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: it's literally a chest piece. It looks like almost um, 289 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: a plate of armor, like a crop top in a 290 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: way that comes down to her ribs and covers her 291 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: entire chest, and it's interwoven with flowers and all sorts 292 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: of colors and it's beautiful and you've probably seen it 293 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: because it for instance, has been featured in an MSNBC documentary, 294 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: It's featured in Mifflin's book Bodies of Subversion, A Secret 295 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: History of Women in the Tattoo that we mentioned earlier, 296 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: and it's also been widely shared on Facebook, although initially 297 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: Facebook tried to take it down a couple of times, Yeah, 298 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: basically saying that the picture or of Thornell's tattooed chest 299 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: violated their nudity policy, which is sort of confusing considering 300 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: that by having her breasts and nipples removed and then 301 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: having a beautiful colored tattoo placed over her chest, she 302 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: would literally be displaying less than a shirtless man would 303 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: be displaying in the picture. But it did get put 304 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: back up, especially after a campaign by Ontario tattoo shop 305 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: Custom Tattoo Design, who kept reposting it and asking their 306 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: followers to repost the tattoo picture as well. Yeah, and 307 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: we've even it's been a while as of this recording, 308 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: and we'll probably repost it again once this episode comes out. Oh, 309 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: I know, we posted it a while back and it 310 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: got a you know, a ton of people liking it 311 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: and sharing it and um, as of one article that 312 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: we read for this podcast that had been liked over 313 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: for a hundred thousand times. And I think just because 314 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: it is such a symbol of being a cancer survivor 315 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: and that reclamation of this woman's body. Yeah. And what 316 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: is even better to hear is Thornell's own reaction to 317 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: this whole thing. She was talking to today dot com 318 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: and said, I think it's a neat option. You step 319 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: out of the shower and you look like yourself, you 320 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: don't look scarred. I understand why women would reconstruct, and 321 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: totally respect their decision to do that to be more normal, 322 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: but the thought of having more surgery, more discomfort didn't 323 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: appeal to me at all. And so I love that 324 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: idea of I feel more like myself. I have chosen 325 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: to do this. I have used you know, not that 326 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: she's saying this, but I have used all of this 327 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: cultural idea of reclaiming my body through tattoos to reclaim 328 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: this space. Yeah. And she's inspired a lot of other 329 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: women to consider that option as well. And now there 330 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: are also plenty of women who after amastectomy choose to 331 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: get implants, get reconstructive surgery, but might still get tattoos 332 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: in place of nipples because and this was something that 333 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: I had not really considered it all before reading about 334 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: this in depth. When it comes to getting these breasts, 335 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: unlike just getting if you or I were to walk 336 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: into a plastic surgeon's office and get a breast implant, 337 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: we would keep our nipples. But obviously when it comes 338 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: to mastectomies you lose your breast, you also lose your nipples. 339 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: So for women who don't want a fake nipple, which 340 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: is always erect and doesn't have sensation, some women opt 341 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: for tattoos over there that the area where a nipple 342 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: would go right. And I loved reading about the options 343 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: that women go for who opt for this particular type 344 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: of tattoo. And I didn't realize that a lot of 345 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: women tend to opt for flowers like a lotus blossom, 346 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: which has a lot of symbolism in terms of rebirth 347 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: three growth being renewed, also things like morning glories, butterflies, 348 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: and birds. And I also enjoyed reading about the growing 349 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: popularity of this movement to the point where there's now 350 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: an annual event in New York that connects survivors with 351 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: tattoo artists, and the group is called Pink, which is 352 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: p dot i n K for Personal Inc. And it 353 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: was founded by this guy, Noel Frantis, who's an ad 354 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: agency executive whose sister in law opted for a tattoo 355 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: after her breast reconstruction. And in this whole pink Day 356 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: event ended up connecting ten survivors and artists. And while 357 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: the women who fly to New York cover their own 358 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: travel expenses, the artist fees are covered by a crowdfunding campaign. 359 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: And so that's like, that's where we are. We've gone 360 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: from tattoos being a sign that you're a promiscuous, loose, 361 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: dangerous woman, two women using tattoos to reclaim it, reclaim 362 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: their bodies and their space for themselves, to now women 363 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: who opt for reconstructive surgery they can have a beautiful 364 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: flower tattoo to reclaim their bodies after surgery. Well, and 365 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: one other kind of tattoo that probably happens even more 366 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: often for women who have had mastectomies who opt for 367 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: implants afterwards is getting tattoos of actual nipples. And this 368 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: isn't new at all, but more people are doing them, 369 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: according to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons UM, and 370 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: they talk about how you know the nipple Aeriola complex. 371 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: Tattoos as they call him them, have been a part 372 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: of breast reconstruction for a long time, especially for some women, 373 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: for instance, who have just undergone radiation therapy or just 374 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: don't want another surgical procedure to reconstruct the nipple because 375 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: by the time to get down to the nipple, to 376 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: this final step in the process, they've already been in 377 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: so many doctor's offices, they've already undergone so many invasive surgeries, 378 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: and so the you know, this is the one last 379 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: thing with getting the nipples tattooed. But not all nipple 380 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: tattoos are created equally. And this might sound to some 381 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: listeners like a cookie thing that we're talking about nipples 382 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: tattoos of nipples. Why why does that matter? What matters 383 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: a lot when women are looking at their chests in 384 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: the mirror, right, And and this is something that we 385 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: referenced earlier in the in the podcast about you know, 386 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: your whole personal identity and your sexuality can be tied 387 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: up in your breasts because of not only the meaning 388 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: that you impart to them yourself, but the meeting that 389 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: society places on them or your partner or spouse, and 390 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: so to look at yourself post surgery, post trauma, and 391 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: basically just see a blank space there. It is. It 392 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: is jarring, and so plastic surgeons have traditionally performed uh 393 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: nipple tattoos in office. And the terrible thing about these 394 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: tattoos though, that are performed in office by plastic surgeons, 395 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: adding insult to injury, is that they're not even done 396 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: using a like a traditional professional tattoo technique. They're the 397 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: quality is not as good, the actual imagery is not 398 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: as good. If you have dark skin, you might end 399 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: up with a light pink or peach nipple. Basically, like 400 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: things just don't match. And so after you've been through 401 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: this traumatic experience, this long health ordeal, you end up 402 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: with a nipple that doesn't even make sense on your body. Yeah, 403 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: and that's why there's this tattoo artist in Fredericksburg, Maryland, 404 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: Vinny Myers, who has become known as the Michelangelo of 405 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: mastectomy tattoos because using his expertise as a tattoo artist, 406 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: unlike you know, just being a surgeon or a nurse 407 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: in a surgeon's office doing this sort of tattoo work, 408 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: he actually takes the time matching it too. Different skin tones, 409 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: making sure the positioning is correct, making sure the size 410 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: is proportional to the breast. And because of that, he 411 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: is in high demand. I think he has a six 412 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: or eight month waiting list at his tiny shop in Fredericksburg. Yeah. 413 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: Michelle Coddle wrote about this for The Washington And and 414 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: for the New York Times because she herself ended up 415 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: going to Meyer. She had breast cancer and how to 416 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: mastectomy and she opted for reconstructive surgery and wanted nipples 417 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: that looked like real nipples. Imagine that. Um. And she 418 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: talks about the whole process of how skilled he is 419 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: and the fact that he takes the time to match 420 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: colors to your skin tone, and um, he he really 421 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: gets into it very passionately, talking to Coddle about the 422 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: women that he sees that he he almost has to 423 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: play psychologist or counselor to them, and how heartbreaking it 424 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: is for him to see women of different skin tones, ages, etcetera, etcetera, 425 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: who have these awful tattoo jobs done by plastic surgeons. 426 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: And he's sort of gotten on a campaign to convince 427 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: doctors like, I'm not trying to take your business. I'm 428 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: just saying that maybe you should either do a better 429 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: job or send your patients to a professional tattoo artist 430 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: to help them re establish their identity post surgery, right, 431 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: because it's so much a part of all of the 432 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: stuff that we were talking about from that British Journal 433 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: Psychology paper about that feeling, you know, those psychological psychological 434 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: impact of mastectomies in terms of your body going through 435 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: this complete transformation and then the very last step in 436 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: it is just a botched tattoo Like how like that 437 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: can only add even more psychological toll to it, right, 438 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: And so women from all over the world, more than 439 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: five thousand women have ended up traveling to C. Myers 440 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: in his little storefront, to the point where he was like, 441 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, should I move into a new space 442 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: and make it more clinical and clean and white and 443 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: sparkling looking, And all the women were like, no, I 444 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: have been in enough doctor's offices. I want to feel 445 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: like a person. I want to feel like a regular 446 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: human being and come into a freaking tattoo shop and 447 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: get some new nipples. And now to get yourself one 448 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: new nipple would cost you about six hundred dollars from Myers, 449 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: whereas getting to nipple tattoos will run you about eight 450 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: hundred dollars. And the great thing is that some insurance 451 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: companies do actually reimburse patients for this procedures, but a 452 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: lot still refused to pay because tattoo artists like Vinie 453 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: Myers are not licensed healthcare providers, and so he is working, 454 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: I think, with some surgeons to sort of fill in 455 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: that gap, because obviously one man cannot do the job 456 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: of all of the postmastectomy needs in the United States 457 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: and even around the world because he has international clients 458 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: as well at this point. But it's so important, I 459 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: mean thinking about I can't remember Caroline if it was 460 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: Coddle or someone she interviewed for these articles that she 461 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: wrote talking about how the first time they saw their 462 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: breasts post tattoo, they started crying because they felt like 463 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: they had reclaimed their body right. And I think that 464 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: was the same woman who talked about how her husband 465 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: hadn't even looked at her since she had had a mastectomy. Um. 466 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: And I just think Myers is such an interesting figure 467 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: and advocate because you know, he did get a start 468 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: as like a quote unquote normal tattoo artist back in 469 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: the day, and now he says things like I really 470 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: ought to write a book because so many times I 471 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: hear women complaining about their doctors or the way they 472 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: weren't informed about what was available to them until it 473 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: was too late and they'd already had their surgery. Basically, 474 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: this tattoo artist from Maryland is now an advocate for 475 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: breast cancer survivors who feel bullied by their doctors or 476 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: their surgeons or whoever into getting something, whether it is 477 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: reconstructive surgery with implants, or whether it is a nipple 478 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: tattoo in done in office. And so I just think 479 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: it's great that there is someone like Myers who is 480 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: so vocal about giving women options after surgery. And when 481 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: his daughter graduates from art school, she is going to 482 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: learn nipple tattooing as well, to join him in this 483 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: very niche service that he sort of stumbled into. And 484 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: I think the really cool takeaway from learning about these 485 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: mistectomy tattoos is that whether you get the implants and 486 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: want to get the nipple tattoo whatever it is like, 487 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: or if you just want to just get the post 488 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: mistectomy tattoo no implants involved, it at least just offers 489 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: a new and broader choice for women in terms of 490 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: how they want to deal and manage and love their 491 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: bodies post cancer. Absolutely, and I mean, I think it's 492 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: some super powerful stuff. It's so interesting to read about 493 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: something like tattoos, which generally, I think still larger society 494 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: brushes off as like whatever tattoos, who cares? But it 495 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: is such a powerful way to connect emotionally with something 496 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: or someone and reclaim a party yourself. Well, and it's 497 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: so common to for I mean for tattoos to be 498 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: commemorative of cancer in one way or another, whether it's 499 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: someone who's beaten another form of cancer, not breast cancer, 500 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: or in memorium, or in recognition of someone who has 501 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: died from cancer or who was also survived cancer. So 502 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: it's really cool to see that kind of relationship between 503 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: the two. And I mean, I'm biased, I'm a fan 504 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: of tattoos, so and these are the cool kinds of 505 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: tattoos in my mind to get these are not the 506 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: kinds that you'll probably be, you know, heading to get 507 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: removed because you were twenty years old and I thought 508 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: it might have been a good idea to get that 509 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: dolphin on your back. So now we want to hear 510 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: from listeners are there any listeners out there who have 511 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: gotten mystectomy tattoos, we would love to hear from you, 512 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: and if you're comfortable sharing a photo, we'd love to 513 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: see them as well. And for people who are just 514 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: interested in seeing what these look like, you can head 515 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: over to Pinterest. There are a ton of breast cancer 516 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: related tattoos, including these kinds of messect me tattoos we've 517 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: been talking about in this podcast. Um and send us 518 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com 519 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: is where you can reach us. You can also tweet 520 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast and messages on Facebook and 521 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: we have a couple of messages to share with you 522 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break and 523 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: now back to the show. Okay, well, I have a 524 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: letter here from Angela about our daddy Issues episode. She says, 525 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: I think it's so funny that the popular assumption is 526 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: that feminists must have daddy issues, because the biggest reason 527 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm a feminist is my dad. My mom was very 528 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: feminine and ladylike, and my sister followed in her footsteps, 529 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: while I was more of a tomboy who imitated my dad. 530 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: He really reinforced the idea to my sister and me 531 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: that we should be independent, self sufficient, and generally able 532 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: to care for ourselves without the assistance of a man 533 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: or anyone else. He always told me that looks well 534 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: important for functioning within society, should not be the end 535 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: all be all of my existence, and generously littered my 536 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: toy box with comic books, educational toys, books, monsters and barbies. 537 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: I love you, guys, and keep up the good work. 538 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: And you keep up your good work, Angela. Thanks for 539 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: the letter. Well, I've got one here from Patrick. Also 540 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: about our Daddy's Girl episode, he writes, I'm a semi 541 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: new listener and glad I listened since it seems like 542 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: all How Stuff Works podcast our top notch the female 543 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: perspective is always welcoming to me as well. But anyway, 544 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: I just listened to your newest episode about Daddy's Girls 545 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: and made me think about the sex talk with my daughter. 546 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: She's definitely a dad as girl, but I'm scared to 547 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: death about it, especially being a single dad. And it's 548 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: funny because I'm one of the more open people you'll meet. 549 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: But I'm worried now and she's only six. It's such 550 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: an odd scenario. She'll always be my main thing in life, 551 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: and she's around me much more than her mother, so 552 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: how it will be approach is perplexing. Listening to this 553 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: particular show, though, gave me more confidence about it, regardless 554 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: of it being an awkward situation. I may have missed 555 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: a point somewhere in this email, but you've given me 556 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: inspiration towards the inevitable. I also won't worry about what 557 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: color lipsticks she wants to wear. So thanks Patrick and 558 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: good luck. You can totally do it. You can have 559 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,439 Speaker 1: the sex talk and it'll be It'll be awkward, but 560 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: she'll thank you for it in the long run. And 561 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: if you have any messages to send our way. Moms 562 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: stuff at how stubworks dot com is our email address 563 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: and to find links to all of our social media 564 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 565 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,959 Speaker 1: including this one with links to all of our story 566 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: says so you can follow along as you listen, head 567 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. 568 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 569 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com