1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:16,279
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Did the killer and the

2
00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: Idaho student murders actually go online and brag? Now that

3
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: that probable cause? Affidavid has established that the alleged killer,

4
00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, had stalked out the murder house at least

5
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 1: and I emphasized at least twelve times before the murder,

6
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 1: dating all the way back to June. Was that before

7
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,519
Speaker 1: he even started school in his PhD program, he was

8
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 1: already staking them out. We know he had picked his

9
00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,239
Speaker 1: victims by then based on what cops are saying, but

10
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 1: why them? What was the connection? As a desperate search

11
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 1: for the murder weapon goes off, we are waiting holding

12
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: our breaths for the next Bobshell to draw. I mean it,

13
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,040
Speaker 1: See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

14
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,319
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and serious XM one eleven.

15
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 1: Who is this guy? Take a listen to our friends

16
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,039
Speaker 1: k XI. The last time the Arms family saw him

17
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,920
Speaker 1: was when Coburger was working as a security guard at

18
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 1: a local school a couple of years back. When we

19
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 1: talked to him there, everything seeming you know, normal, he

20
00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,880
Speaker 1: was polite and everything. It was very, very weird to

21
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,200
Speaker 1: hear this stuff. Washington State University confirms he was a

22
00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 1: PhD student at the time of the alleged murder, and

23
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: Tom adds he was smart, very intelligent, and then you know,

24
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,119
Speaker 1: he would explain things in like a really odd way

25
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,720
Speaker 1: that had to be really sophisticated way of explaining stuff.

26
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 1: There is still so much more to explain and understand

27
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 1: in this investigation. It's unsettling for Tom to think about

28
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: how this person who they knew for years could have

29
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 1: killed these four students. Just been saying, you know, why

30
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 1: is it that everyone talks about how normal the guy

31
00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,799
Speaker 1: was way back when you know they said that about BTK.

32
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,080
Speaker 1: We find out that Bundy charmed people, very charming. Scott

33
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,440
Speaker 1: Peterson sumed, like the All American guy, didn't he We're

34
00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 1: hearing the same thing now, but can that possibly be true?

35
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,079
Speaker 1: With me in All Star panel to make sense of

36
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 1: what we know right now? But first I want to

37
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,079
Speaker 1: go out to Fox senior correspondent Laura Ingle. Lauren, thank

38
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know I was thinking

39
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,639
Speaker 1: about it before we took to the air. If he

40
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,280
Speaker 1: had started staking out the four students back in June

41
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 1: his classes at the PhD program, had they even started. Yeah,

42
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 1: you know, he was in that area as far when

43
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,560
Speaker 1: we look out the records of when he moved there,

44
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,440
Speaker 1: when the car was registered, how it was registered, it

45
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,840
Speaker 1: appears as though he was there. And the other thing

46
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,240
Speaker 1: about the key piece that we heard on page four

47
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,239
Speaker 1: of the probable Cause Affidavid not to jump ahead, but

48
00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:18,079
Speaker 1: the idea that one of the surviving roommates heard somebody

49
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 1: in the house say it's okay, I'm going to help you.

50
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,360
Speaker 1: I just want to remind us of a story that

51
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,600
Speaker 1: we heard very early on when Brian Coburger was first arrested,

52
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 1: and we didn't have a name, and when we heard

53
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,520
Speaker 1: that name Brian Coburger, everybody pulled up this old newspaper

54
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 1: article from Pennsylvania when he was a part time security

55
00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: guard at a school district, and how was he was

56
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: a part of the super heroic saving of a woman

57
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,600
Speaker 1: who had an asthma attack and he and another school

58
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: guard got down on the ground and helped her, and

59
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,320
Speaker 1: they said Brian helped to save her life. And I

60
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 1: just wanted to draw that of just I don't know,

61
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if he said those words, if that

62
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: was a recording of some kind on her TikTok, But

63
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: it was just I thought, you know, an interesting connection

64
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: that he was a private security guarden, an effort at

65
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,919
Speaker 1: all of the criminology that he took, and the applying

66
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 1: to be an intern with the Pullman Police Department that

67
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,560
Speaker 1: there is now that there is a record of him

68
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 1: being on the ground trying to help a woman, you know,

69
00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,240
Speaker 1: running to get an aeed to save a woman's life.

70
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,840
Speaker 1: So I know that we had talked a little bit

71
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:37,040
Speaker 1: about that on previous shows, but it is certainly erie. Yeah,

72
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: you know what, Laura Angle, It really is because you

73
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 1: see the dichotomy of someone that could have been really

74
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 1: a hero in this world and has done the exact

75
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,040
Speaker 1: opposite and turned into the devil. And of course, let

76
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,839
Speaker 1: me just say again before I am pilloried online, everyone

77
00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 1: is presumed innocent until they're proved and guilty, and that

78
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,520
Speaker 1: goes for Brian Coburger as well. You know, doctor Bethany

79
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 1: Marshall joining us a high profile psychoanalyst joining us out

80
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 1: of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall MD dot com

81
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,480
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. That's really interesting what Laura Ingle told us,

82
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,359
Speaker 1: how he had gone so far as to save someone's

83
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:24,240
Speaker 1: life being written up and lauded for it and then

84
00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 1: somehow took a really dark turn. But my initial reaction was,

85
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: it's the show. There's a whole drama going on. It's

86
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,560
Speaker 1: Coburgers the world and we're all just living in it. Yeah,

87
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,920
Speaker 1: if you think about one of the associated features of sociopathy,

88
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,440
Speaker 1: which is which what you just said means nothing to me.

89
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 1: I don't even know what you're talking about, the one

90
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,480
Speaker 1: of the what of the what? Sociopaths and serial killers

91
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,919
Speaker 1: are always sociopaths. And if Brian Koburger did this, we

92
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,400
Speaker 1: were going to guess that this is a first killing

93
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: in what was intended to be a long life of

94
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 1: serial killing. Okay, so let's hold that in our minds

95
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,400
Speaker 1: that he is possibly a serial killer and he got

96
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: caught on his first offense. So what do we know

97
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: about men like this? And yes, they're mostly men. They

98
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,279
Speaker 1: are grandios, they are glib, but they are charming. But

99
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,839
Speaker 1: it's a fin veneer. It's a superficial veneer of grandiosity,

100
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 1: meaning that they want to be the center of attention.

101
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,160
Speaker 1: They want to be the star, They want everybody to

102
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 1: look up to them. They want to feel like they

103
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 1: are saving the world. But when I say it, says

104
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,520
Speaker 1: thin veneer. They'll only act this way until you disagree

105
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 1: with him, and then the veneer cracks and they become vicious,

106
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 1: they become mean, and they go on the attack. So

107
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,560
Speaker 1: I think about the little boy he's saved with the

108
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 1: asthma attack. I can imagine the parents calling him, asking

109
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,239
Speaker 1: him over to dinner, him getting cars, you know, maybe

110
00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,520
Speaker 1: asked to go on a local TV show. I'm just

111
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: going to make keen this up. And then he revels

112
00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,280
Speaker 1: in the glory of being so important. But what if

113
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,040
Speaker 1: one reporter or a parent says, yeah, but you know what,

114
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 1: you cracked the boy's ribs when you were doing CPR

115
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 1: or you know, I think you should have called by

116
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: any one one instead of trying to see the boy yourself.

117
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 1: Then he would have turned on them. Well, I'm also

118
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,080
Speaker 1: wondering if that has anything to do with the way

119
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 1: he picked his victims. Straight out to Chris mcdunna and

120
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 1: joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide

121
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 1: detective Chris, who I found, by the way on his

122
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,400
Speaker 1: YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris, I'm jumping off of

123
00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: what doctor Bethany just said and then I'm going to

124
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 1: get back into what everybody wants to hear about Joe Scott,

125
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 1: C C. Moore, Del Carson, the nuts and bowls of

126
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,440
Speaker 1: how this case is going to be proven or how

127
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,640
Speaker 1: it can be dismantled by a savvy defense attorney. And yes,

128
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 1: it can be done. Chris mcdunna jumping off what doctor

129
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 1: Bethany just said. I've been asked over and over and over,

130
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 1: what's the motive? Number One, state doesn't have to prove motive. Okay,

131
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 1: we're not clairvoyant. We don't know what's going on in

132
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 1: his head. Number Two, it does help a jury to

133
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 1: have a motive, so the killings makes sense to them.

134
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 1: Now motive Bethany was describing a scenario where someone who

135
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,640
Speaker 1: was a hero could quickly make an about face. We know,

136
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough that there had been occasions where Coburger had

137
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 1: been asked to refrain from creeping out women at bars.

138
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,120
Speaker 1: We know that he bragged to a classmate, I could

139
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 1: go to pretty much any bar or restaurant and have

140
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 1: any lady I want. He actually said that. Okay, let

141
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 1: that sink in for just a moment. Do you think

142
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 1: there's a possibility. You know, he was doing all the

143
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,400
Speaker 1: study with felons, violent felons about how did you pick

144
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,440
Speaker 1: your victims? How did you approach your victims? And a

145
00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 1: lot more. Let's even creepier. Do you think somehow he

146
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,679
Speaker 1: had been at a bar or a restaurant and one

147
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 1: of these young girls had ignored him or didn't respond

148
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: to his advances, and that is how he started following them,

149
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,839
Speaker 1: because he would actually ask women at bars, I mean

150
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,240
Speaker 1: jack and said how much would this creepy out? If

151
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 1: a guy came up and said what's your address? I

152
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 1: would run for the hills. It's fine seene a monster,

153
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 1: I mean for sure, no question about that. I mean,

154
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 1: how about hey, can I buy you a diet coo?

155
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,560
Speaker 1: I don't know something like that. Every time I throw

156
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 1: a line to one of the twins to use on

157
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,120
Speaker 1: their love objects, they they tell me how horrible they are.

158
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 1: I don't know what a good pickup line would be.

159
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 1: I suggested to one of the twins to say how

160
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,600
Speaker 1: was your New Year? And they doubled over, laughing that

161
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 1: they could never say how was your New Year? To somebody?

162
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: So I'm not good at that. So Chris McDonough, what

163
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 1: about it, you know, Nancy. The fact that it's not

164
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,520
Speaker 1: an obvious motive, that's you know, right on the surface here.

165
00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 1: And the fact that we talked about this on your

166
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,679
Speaker 1: show earlier, where you know he's gonna He treated this

167
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 1: killing us almost it was as if it was an

168
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,319
Speaker 1: event his life, one of his creepy experiments. Yes, oh,

169
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 1: Chris Waite, you just gave me a thought. Hold on, ye,

170
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,240
Speaker 1: you know how he would ask all the violent felons, murderers, rapists,

171
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,839
Speaker 1: child rapists, what was going through your mind? How did

172
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:42,000
Speaker 1: you feel during the murder or during the rape. I

173
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 1: wonder if he was doing this to see how it

174
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 1: really did feel, what it was really like. I mean,

175
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 1: this whole thing was over it. I'm sure Joe just

176
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,839
Speaker 1: got Dale cars. You're gonna have something to say about

177
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,680
Speaker 1: this over in sixteen minutes. Based on the timing when

178
00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: he pulled up and when he left, it was almost clinical.

179
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 1: In and out. There was no right, there was no theft.

180
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,440
Speaker 1: He just went in, did the killing and laughed. Chris McDonough,

181
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: how's that? Yeah? And he and he presented himself in

182
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 1: such a coolheaded, chameleon type of way. Evident of the

183
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,800
Speaker 1: fact that we have you know this information allegedly that

184
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:29,559
Speaker 1: he says, I'm here to help you. So this guy, allegedly,

185
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,679
Speaker 1: if he is the sushpect, which you know he's been arrested,

186
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 1: he is that guy that if of somebody and the

187
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 1: dog can keep me honest here, if somebody pushes him away,

188
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,559
Speaker 1: he's going to hold a grudge for quite some time.

189
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,120
Speaker 1: So in my mind, my question has been how long

190
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,240
Speaker 1: has he been holding this grudge? And that those women

191
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,720
Speaker 1: were they the receivers of that anger? Good good thought.

192
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: And I want to follow up with Laura Ingle. Laura Ingle,

193
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,439
Speaker 1: Senior correspondent, Fox News. Um, Laura, you were so incredible

194
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,360
Speaker 1: on Fox News last night. I just every time you

195
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,480
Speaker 1: start talking, it completely changes the course of my questioning.

196
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,320
Speaker 1: I hope you know that, which is a good thing

197
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 1: because it's always something new that you're gonna say. I

198
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 1: want to follow up on what Chris said. And guys,

199
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 1: remember how many times do I have to tell you this?

200
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,199
Speaker 1: Del Carson and Joe Scott Morgan and cecmore brilliant genetic genealogists.

201
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,600
Speaker 1: By the way, we're not having tea at High Grove

202
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 1: with King Charles and Camilla. Okay, jump in, don't jump

203
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:47,839
Speaker 1: in quite yet. Wait, Laura, Laura, you're gonna light in

204
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,679
Speaker 1: this still, You're gonna like this? Okay? If he had

205
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,680
Speaker 1: met them all right at some point being you know,

206
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,480
Speaker 1: getting a coffee and say hey, do you live around here?

207
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,160
Speaker 1: As she goes, well, I'm not going to say, because

208
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: that's a curseword. I gave it up cursing get lost.

209
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 1: I'll put it in an ice way. This he was

210
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 1: staking them out in June, Laura. So were the girls

211
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,320
Speaker 1: already there? Did they live there over the summer? That's

212
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 1: a great question. I think that we assume that some

213
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 1: of them did, but I don't know if we have

214
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,320
Speaker 1: those records that shows that. But you're right, the cell

215
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:30,440
Speaker 1: phone tower information about how many times he had been back. Yeah,

216
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 1: But I also want to fass I also want to

217
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 1: fass forward really quick because I thought about this last night.

218
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,000
Speaker 1: Oh here she goes, train out of control. You know

219
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,400
Speaker 1: how we've been watching how you know there was a

220
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,120
Speaker 1: there's a direct line of path from his apartment and

221
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: Pullman to the apartment in or to the rental home

222
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,600
Speaker 1: in Moscow, Idaho, And then he takes this crazy path

223
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,960
Speaker 1: home where it goes down and around and he's obviously

224
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,439
Speaker 1: trying to you know, take a different route. But we've all,

225
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,680
Speaker 1: i think, been on the same panel talking about Potus Dulos.

226
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,080
Speaker 1: It was a case that we covered where a strange

227
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 1: husband murdered his wife of five children and had a

228
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 1: mother of five children, and all along the way he

229
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 1: was dumping items. So where are the bloody clothes, the shoes,

230
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 1: the mask, obviously, the knife, anything that he had, the

231
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,000
Speaker 1: duffel bag that he might have brought to change into clothes,

232
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,520
Speaker 1: anything of that sort. I'm curious now in the forward

233
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 1: part of the investigation of you know, were there any

234
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 1: cameras that picked him up going somewhere? Where did he

235
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 1: dump those things? I know that we've been talking about

236
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 1: how he dumped some garbage once he got to Pennsylvania,

237
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 1: But did he do anything in that long roundabout way

238
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: from the victim's residence back to Pullman because he took

239
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 1: that if you look at the map that's in the affidavit.

240
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 1: And that is why I was Laura Ingalls is a

241
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,480
Speaker 1: better reporter on her sick bed, then guys just say,

242
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, she said COVID and you know, more facts

243
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 1: and I don't mean institutional facts about this case that

244
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,720
Speaker 1: we've learned from the beginning. I mean, like, what's happening

245
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: right now? That's an incredible thought. Okay, this means something,

246
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: Dell Carson, because I'm getting chills. Look that important. Can

247
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: I just introduce you Dell Carson, trial lawyer out of Jacksonville.

248
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get it in and this is a good part.

249
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: Former FBI and former cop in Miami. Date at Dell

250
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 1: Carson Law dot com. Okay, go Dell. You got an

251
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 1: eye witness of him being in the property, you have

252
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: his DNA, you have a number of slaughtered victims. Having

253
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 1: a knife isn't like crying to find a gun where

254
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,360
Speaker 1: you can connect the bullet through teche markings to the

255
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,520
Speaker 1: actual firearm. You find them in this position possession. This

256
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 1: is a nice It can't be exactly in joke and

257
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,600
Speaker 1: correct you on this, It can't be exactly determined that

258
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,040
Speaker 1: that was the knife unless there's DNA on it. Later.

259
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and I'll tell you why. Joe Carson

260
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,120
Speaker 1: and I've had it out with so many forensic dentists

261
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 1: on this exact point. Let's do what you just said. Joe.

262
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, host

263
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 1: of a new hit series Bodybags, with Joe Scott Morgan

264
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: on iHeart just got same theory applies to forensic dentistry

265
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 1: as it does with this knife. Flesh is flexible and

266
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,160
Speaker 1: you can't really It's like trying to get a teeth

267
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: mark in jello. Ain't gonna happen. I mean, unless you've

268
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 1: got some really crazy set of teeth. Then occasionally I've

269
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 1: seen it be very convincing, but still you can't. One

270
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 1: of the problems with We're not going to go down

271
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,400
Speaker 1: this path too far, says you. I'll drive this train

272
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:10,120
Speaker 1: wherever I want to, young man, but somebody's getting sassy, Jackie.

273
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 1: You can't quantify bite marks. That's one of the problems

274
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 1: in forensics. Now why do you say it like that

275
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,960
Speaker 1: when I said it was like biting into jello? But

276
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,520
Speaker 1: go ahead, professor, Well, thank you. We can't. You can't

277
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 1: quantify it. And the same the same applies to a

278
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 1: knife wound. You can examine it, you can compare it,

279
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 1: and you say it's close to Here's one thing that

280
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 1: I find very interesting and something that we do in

281
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 1: the mortgage that people might not be aware of. Even

282
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,280
Speaker 1: with knife wounds prior to the things that will do

283
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,920
Speaker 1: our full body X rays. And this is kind of

284
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,400
Speaker 1: key here because this knife was used allegedly multiple times, right,

285
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 1: So every time you're striking with this knife, there is

286
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,800
Speaker 1: a potential that the structural integrity of the knife is

287
00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 1: being compromised. It's wearing down and depended upon how well

288
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 1: the blade is made, it can chip and one of

289
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,439
Speaker 1: the things we look for in these X rays that

290
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: we do are little metal fragments. Now, you can't do

291
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 1: it ballistically, but what you can do, and this is

292
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 1: really cool, is that if you can recover one of

293
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 1: those chips, you can do a metallurgical analysis on that chip.

294
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,920
Speaker 1: And what that means is the chemistry behind the creation

295
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,879
Speaker 1: of that blade is unique to that particular manufacturer. Okay, well,

296
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: let me just understand what you're saying. Are you saying

297
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,360
Speaker 1: a knife, use of a knife and a murderer? Can

298
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 1: you use tiny microscopic leave excuse me, tiny microscopic pieces

299
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 1: of metal in the wound? Yes, it can. Have you

300
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 1: ever seen that happen? Yes? I have. How often have

301
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,160
Speaker 1: you seen that happen? Infrequently? You mean rarely? Okay, because

302
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,959
Speaker 1: Joe Scott I hear what you're saying, and I do

303
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 1: think it can happen. And as you were saying that,

304
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 1: the worst the quality of the knife, the more likely

305
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 1: it will happen. I've never had a case for a

306
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 1: knife left any type of metallurgy behind in a wound.

307
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: But I do see how theoretically it can happen. Yeah, tips,

308
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 1: tips of knives break off very frequently. A tip breaks off. Yeah,

309
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 1: but I don't know that it's left in the in

310
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 1: the wound. Sure it is, Yeah, Oh yeah it is.

311
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 1: It's it's left and bone. Yeah, that's a good point.

312
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yeah, it happens. It happens with great,

313
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 1: great frequency. So back to what Laura Ingle brought up.

314
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 1: Where in the hay is the murder Weapon a Fox

315
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: Nation exclusive? An international pop star stripped of human rights?

316
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,479
Speaker 1: How does that happen? Easier than you think? Join us

317
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 1: for a deep dive into Britney Spears's conservatorship Trapped, streaming

318
00:19:47,280 --> 00:20:00,640
Speaker 1: now on Fox Nation Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Before

319
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 1: I lose this guest, I'm going to circle back to

320
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 1: the murder Weapon. I've just got to go to chief

321
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:11,679
Speaker 1: genetic genealogist Peer and Bonnano Labs CEC more again, you

322
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: know what dummy down for me. I'm just a j D.

323
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 1: I'm not a genetic genealogist, and you're bringing back memories,

324
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: happy memories for me, sad memories for medical examiners in

325
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: crime lab personnel to go through every single line of

326
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 1: their report and make them speak English that I can

327
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 1: understand as is Shakespearean English major CEC. They need more DNA. Now,

328
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 1: do I think the case is strong? Yes? I do.

329
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 1: I think case it is incredibly strong. But that's it.

330
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 1: I can just see a Johnny Cochran move God rest

331
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: his soul. He was my co waker at Court TV

332
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: Cochrane and Grace. I can see somebody like him coming

333
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 1: in and going what out of a blood bath like this?

334
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: And you're telling me the only DNA linking back to

335
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 1: the defendant is a little epiphelial skin cells on the

336
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: snap on the knife hilt. Really, and you're gonna send

337
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: my guy to the death penalty over that? Oh? H

338
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 1: n oh, that is what is going to happen. I'm

339
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: telling you. I'm telling you right now, unless somehow they

340
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 1: can find some other DNA. Yeah, I agree with you, Nancy.

341
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: They could argue that someone else transported that knife sheath

342
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: to the crime scene, or they could argue this CCO, Lord,

343
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to give them any ideas. What if

344
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: they argued, yeah, he went to a knife and gun

345
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: show and he looked at a lot of knife and

346
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: he opened them up and looked at them and snapped

347
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: him back and put him back on the display, then

348
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: of course i'd have to dig up an if a

349
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: gun show that was in that area. But that said,

350
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 1: there's a million ways they could counter that one. A

351
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: little bit of DNA for sure. So I think we know,

352
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: based on the eyewitness DM that he was not totally

353
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: covered up. She was able to see his eyebrows, and

354
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: we are told that he was wearing a mask that

355
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: covered his mouth and his nose. Well, that sounds like

356
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: the kind of masks we've been wearing with COVID for

357
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: the last three years. And it also might explain, by

358
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: the way, why she wasn't thinking this was somebody who

359
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 1: had done something terrible in the house. You know, those

360
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: kids are used to seeing people wear masks. It's been

361
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: really normalized over the last three years, and these are

362
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: young kids. So anyway, was his hair covered you've got

363
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,239
Speaker 1: a full head of hair. Did that guy walk in

364
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: there not fully suited up? If so, I wouldn't be

365
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 1: the least bit surprised if there is some hair evidence

366
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: left at that scene. You know, Cecymore, I'm going to

367
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: charge you for all the paper that I use if

368
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: you would laugh, if you could see all the notes

369
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: I take furiously whenever you start talking, I'm like, I'm

370
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: running out. I'm using the back pages of things that

371
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: twins did in school in the fifth grade. For Pete's sake,

372
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: that is so smart. Okay, we don't know anything about

373
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: us head being covered, did we, Laura Engele, I have

374
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: not heard anything about the head being covered. And one

375
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: of the questions I had for the family, the attorney

376
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: of the Gonzalvas family, who I spoke to Sunday, I asked,

377
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: you know, have you talked to DM have you talked

378
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: to Dylan? They said that they have spoken to her,

379
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't tell me what that conversation was for

380
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 1: obvious reasons, for personal reasons. But you know, we don't

381
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: know what more she said about what she saw. You know,

382
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: when I first heard of the story, didn't we all

383
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: sort of think that whoever did this must have been

384
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: dressed like a ninja, and mebe even wearing goggle for

385
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: the sake of not leaving your DNA. But to your

386
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: point there, there just has to be more the bedsheets,

387
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: the comfort or the staircase, the door handle. I'm thinking

388
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: about hair. And I've got to ask Jackie, why are

389
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: you holding up a snus a ski mask? Didn't she

390
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: say he had a ski Nobody ever said he wore

391
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: a ski mask, and anybody he had a mask covering

392
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: his nose and mouth. I haven't heard anything about ski mask.

393
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: That's how facts gets totally distorted. Has anybody said ski

394
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: mask beside Jackie sitting right there, who just cooked it

395
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: up in her head? No, No, I heard. You've had

396
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: way too many Duncan donut cup cups of coffee. Jackie,

397
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: what dale ski mask for? And I will tell you

398
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: it's in the car, as Joe Morgan will tell you.

399
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: That's where the evidence is. And as soon as they

400
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: find but one of the victims blood in that car,

401
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: that's what they need. That is what they need. Yes, Hey, ccmore,

402
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: I got off track with Jackie's ski mask allegation. What

403
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: were you saying? Back to the hair. Yes, so the hair.

404
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: You know, you used to not be able to get

405
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: DNA from rootless hair, but now we can thanks to

406
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: the brilliant doctor ed Green from Santa Cruz, and I've

407
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: helped on two cases recently where all we had was

408
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: a tiny piece of rootless hair. You mean mitochondrial DNA

409
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: won't that work? Mitochondrial? Yes, but you can actually now

410
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: get autozomal DNA. Whooa, whoa white? What did you just

411
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: call it? What did you call it? Autozomal DNA? That's

412
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: the type of DNA autozomal Yeah, I'm gonna throw that

413
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: at Joe Scott's see if I can stuff him autozomal

414
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: he's probably googling it right now. Go ahead. It's the

415
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: type of DNA you get from both sides of your family,

416
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: from all of your grandparents, great grandparents. It's much more

417
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: unique than mitochondrial DNA. Oh okay, And you're telling me

418
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: I could get autosomal DNA from a hair without a nucleus,

419
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: and it's more exact than just mitochondrial DNA, which you

420
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: can get from a hair without a nucleus that only

421
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: goes to you to mother. Correct, right, mitochondrial DNA there

422
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: can be thousands of people, tens of thousands of people

423
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: who have the exact same signature. But no one's going

424
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: to have your exact same autosomal DNA signature except for

425
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: a twin. That's why I call her brilliant. Hey, Joe Scott,

426
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: are you through giggling autosomble yet? Yes? Okay, guys, I'm

427
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: just filling Joe Scott's leg. He's just an incredible friends

428
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State. Joe Scott, can we just and

429
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: everybody jump in? Okay? You know you shirted pipe down,

430
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh. You know I've got some ideas. I've got

431
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: some ideas. Natty, I'm waiting, all right, Joe Scott, if

432
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: he could just drop one hair, one hair? Did you

433
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: hear what Ccymore said, if we could just find one

434
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: hair and all that mess of a crime scene, one hair,

435
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: or as Dale Carson pointed out, one speck blood in

436
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: that elantra. Just Scott, how are we going to do this?

437
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: Look Look to the hands, Look to the hands, Nancy,

438
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: because this is key. We've made a big deal over

439
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: the last few weeks about the examination of these victim's

440
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: hands at the Morgue Remember they bag the hands, which

441
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: is something that we normally do, all right, but when

442
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: this occurs, When this occurs and you have individuals that

443
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: are fighting back, remember we've got documented defense wounds. They

444
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: might be grabbing at the head. And if they do,

445
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: and plus if there's blood on the victim's hands, and

446
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,959
Speaker 1: everybody knows how tacky blood is and sticky, it's amazing.

447
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: It's amazing what you will find contain not just beneath

448
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: the fingernails and those are you know, you can really

449
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: harvest a lot out of those, but also just stuck

450
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: to the palms of the hands and the backs of

451
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: the hands. They very well, one of these kids very

452
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: well may have pulled out a root hair with a

453
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: root intact as well, you know, to Cecy's point about

454
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: the autosomal DNA, yeah, I mean, and some of this

455
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: hair might be fractured. You never know. But that's why

456
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: they have gone over these bodies with a fine tooth comb, Nancy,

457
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: and they have recovered every bit of trace evidence I'm

458
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: hoping they have at the morgue. And they applied a

459
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: team to this that did nothing but this. These clothes,

460
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: the clothes of the kids we were taking care of

461
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: very well. They were sent to the crime lab. Everything

462
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: was documented, and I can't you know, we could spend

463
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: two shows just talking about the examination that they're going

464
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: to do on these clothing alone for trace evidence and

465
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: extracting anything they can that might be DNA. Rich, Okay,

466
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: I want to hear what Chris mcdonna's idea is. So

467
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: Nancy on the on the sheath, I want to go

468
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: back to the sheath for a moment if we can. Okay,

469
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: it's laying next to Maddie. Yeah, buy your leg. You

470
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: notice there's no conversation in the alpha. David, I've had

471
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: many judges asked me, is there anything else belonging to

472
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: anybody else on this item? I e. Cross, you know, blood,

473
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. No, your honor, it looks like

474
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: it's a single source DNA. So here's my thought. That

475
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: scene was a horror house. Why is there not blood

476
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: on this sheet? And I would submit to you if

477
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: it was, that would have been put into the affidavit.

478
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: And that's why hold on, hold on, hold on Christmas,

479
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: Donna say that again, very slowly. Sure, so the sheath

480
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: where we know there's single source DNA on the snap

481
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,239
Speaker 1: from a male and then they've now massed that, you know,

482
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: through family members. But what we're not hearing is cross

483
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, contamination from the scene itself. I e. If

484
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: he drops this and he's stabbing, there's blood going everywhe

485
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: and I would submit to you if it ends up

486
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: right next to that victim, there is blood on that sheet.

487
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: But we're not hearing about that. So my thinking is,

488
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: did this guy bring this post homicide and place it

489
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: there as part of a staging activity. No, he didn't

490
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: have time. He didn't have time to do that, guys. Okay, okay, no, no, no,

491
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, I want to hear everything, guys. This is

492
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: how cases are fine tuned. They're honed by I remember

493
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: talking to my best friend in the DA's office about cases,

494
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: talking to my investigator, working the evidence through, seeing what

495
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: would work, what wouldn't like what you just heard mcdonna say,

496
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: that would be a fantastic theory to put to a jury.

497
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: But yet we know he was only in there for

498
00:30:52,280 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: twenty minutes. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Two things very quickly.

499
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: Anybody jump in Laura Engele. We've heard a lot about

500
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: Dylan DM as she is called, and they probably cause affidavit.

501
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: How how could it be? Everybody says that he walked

502
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: right by, Luring didn't say her. I have a theory

503
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: on that, Laura, and that theory is that she ducked

504
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: back in her door and had the door cracked and

505
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: saw him go by. Would that work with the evidence

506
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: as we know it? It could certainly. And I mean

507
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: when you read the alphadavit, it doesn't say she was

508
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: standing in the doorway, you know, in front of the kitchen.

509
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: It doesn't give us that detail, just says that she

510
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: did open the door, and it says three things very

511
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: distinct sound and clues that we have from Dm Dylan,

512
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: the roommate that you heard, who she thought was Kaylee

513
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: saying there's someone here. Then she heard the whimpering and

514
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: crying sounds and a male voice saying it's okay, I'm

515
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: going to help you. And then that third and final

516
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: time she opens the door, she sees the figure dressed

517
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: in black with the mask and the bushy eyebrows, and

518
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: then says she locks the door. One of the other things,

519
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the sheets just really quick,

520
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: because you had said at the beginning of the show.

521
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: We've wondered if Brian Coburger got involved with discussions online

522
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: on Facebook groups and on Reddit and on all these things.

523
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: But there was a very specific thing that somebody said

524
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are saying could probably be

525
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. He wrote on a Facebook page that was

526
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: titled University of Idaho Murder's Facebook discussion when he was

527
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: going under Papa Rogers or the other name. And this

528
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: is before the probable cause affidavit, and he says one

529
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: of the evidence of the evidence release, the murder weapon

530
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife. This

531
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: leads me to believe they found the sheath. We didn't

532
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: know about the time. Yeah, we did not know about it.

533
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: But what that's a leak from the investigation is where

534
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: that's coming from. You can't believe that they knew that

535
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: less that was him bragging online and doctor Bethany in

536
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: a nutshell, wouldn't that fit exactly with the personality characteristics

537
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: that you observed, Absolutely, Nancy, that would absolutely fit with

538
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: his personality. He was inserting himself into everything online forums,

539
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,239
Speaker 1: saving a life, creeping on women in bars, and you know,

540
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: we were talking about what's along that route between his

541
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: home and the victim's home, and what nobody mentioned was

542
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: other victims that maybe that was a very common route

543
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: for him, and maybe there are other potential victims that

544
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: were along that route, so that not only would he

545
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: have been shedding clothing evidence, but maybe he was stalking

546
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: other people as well. I mean, serial killers don't just

547
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: stalk one person. This is the first in an intended

548
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: long line of serial killings, and so I think we

549
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: have to add that into our discussion. J Scott, A

550
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 1: lot has been made to whether a quadruple homicide could

551
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: be affected in sixteen minutes. I think it wasn't Jackie,

552
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: wasn't it sixteen minutes? Laura, wasn't it sixteen minutes? Okay,

553
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: what about it? Jess Scott. Yeah. My thought is that

554
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: the individual that perpetrated something like this would have to

555
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: have a familiarity with the environment to move that quickly

556
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: through this because this is dirty, dirty work, and it

557
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: is labor intensive. I hate to put it in those terms,

558
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: but it truly is. The individual would have to move

559
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: with stealth, They would have to move with purpose, that

560
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: would have to know where the victims are in order

561
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: to facilitate this and they'd have to be prepared showing up.

562
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, yeah, it's possible sixteen minutes. Certainly,

563
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: I know somebody in the certainly people in the military

564
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: that are trained at this sort of thing could do

565
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: it probably under that time. But you know, you're talking

566
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: about college kids, you're not talking about enemy combatants here,

567
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: and so yeah, and if he had familiarity with this environment,

568
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: I think that's possible. Well, then his terrify aclalgal might

569
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: be there already. If he had been in the home before. Well,

570
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: my thought, my thought about this, Nancy, I'm wondering if

571
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: he had not been going in there in that house

572
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: when other people were not there, and maybe nesting in

573
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: that house. That's why I think that it's really interesting

574
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: if the cops went in there and looked in the

575
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: closets to see if there was any touch DNA left behind,

576
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: or if this guy had been having some kind of

577
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: massptry fantasies in those closets, just hanging out when no

578
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: one else. When you say massumtory fantasies, nobody as a word.

579
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: When I say it, everybody goes, why would you say

580
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: that that's gross? There's no evidence of that. But you

581
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: in Mesany talk about it all the time. When I

582
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: say this, oh I oh no, why didn't she say that? Okay? Okay.

583
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: The other possibility, Nancy, is that I like the use

584
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: of Joe Scott Morgan's word nesting. I'd never heard that before,

585
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: but maybe he was also nesting at night when the

586
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: kids were sleeping. I mean, he he did that work

587
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: so quickly sixteen minutes. I'm not a crime scene investigator.

588
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: I'm just like, how do you kill four people in

589
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: sixteen minutes? Well? Hold on, Chris McDonough has been at

590
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: the saying, Chris, isn't it true that from the outside

591
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: looking in fuelok, in every window, you can easily spot

592
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: the layout of the house. Absolutely, Nancy, And we talked

593
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: about this on your show many times, where this guy

594
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: is such a mechanical existence and he's taken all of

595
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: this time to kind of, you know, set the stage

596
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: like Joe's talking about. And that's where that cinder block

597
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: in the back window behind the house that we spoke

598
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: about just doesn't look right. That thing is that was

599
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: just out of place. U. One other thing on the

600
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: evidence that I don't think nobody's talking about yet is

601
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: after the incident if he's gone out and you know,

602
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: just move the items in various different locations. That air

603
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: filter in that car is going to be critical to

604
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: take because you're able to get pollens from the different

605
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: type of environments. Trap him in that air filter and

606
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: Joe talk about this for days, but then bring a

607
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: botanist in and see if those environments are consistent with

608
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: those pollens. That is an incredible idea. Oh gosh, that's

609
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: such a good idea. And an a PC guy come

610
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: in and check the in the house. They did you

611
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: know that you said they had a what kind of guy?

612
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: HVAC and air conditioning. There's one more big piece of

613
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: evidence that no one's really you know, diving into, and

614
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: that's the shoe print in the hallway that they recovered

615
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: or noticed. They enhanced it with a meadow black, which

616
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: is it's a protein. It reacts with the proteins and blood.

617
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: So it's really clear in the after David if in

618
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: fact the footprint was left in blood. But they do

619
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: have this identified as coming from a van style shoe

620
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: and it's a diamond pattern. It looks like it. I

621
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: don't know if it's a heel strike or toad strike.

622
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: But if he's transferring blood off of the soul of

623
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 1: that shoe and it's creating a print, that's very significant.

624
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: And all of these items, you know, we're talking about knives,

625
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: we're talking about shoes, all these things. It doesn't take

626
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: forensics to track this down. This is shoe leather on

627
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,479
Speaker 1: the part of the cops going out and just trying

628
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: to determine did he own these things? Is there a

629
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: purchase history with these things? Vans are very specific and

630
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: I know a lot of college kids, have my college

631
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: kids that I teach at Jacksonville State where but you

632
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: know that significant is it something that he owned? And

633
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 1: the pattern on that shoe is distinctive to him depended

634
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: upon the wear pattern. As you can see, there is

635
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: so much evidence to sift through and so far always

636
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: seeing is a problem caused affidavit? What will come next?

637
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: We wait as the evidence unfolds. Nancy Gray's signing off,

638
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: good bye, fend