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Speaker 1: Tonight's classic episode is something that something that still stays

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Speaker 1: with us all today. I think it stays with me

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Speaker 1: for sure. The history of Iran, which is always called

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Speaker 1: a boogeyman in the West, it's a little more complicated

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Speaker 1: than that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just say I learned a ton in

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Speaker 2: the research for this episode, stuff that I was never

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Speaker 2: taught in school, Stuff that was completely alien to me

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Speaker 2: when it comes to history, like rich, rich history of

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Speaker 2: a country that's in the news all the time.

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Speaker 3: Matt, would you say you learned a little bit of

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Speaker 3: stuff they don't want you to know. Yeah, let's jump

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Speaker 3: right in.

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Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 4: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 3: My name is Max, my name is Nolan.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission Control Decat most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. And we are recording on breaking news

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Speaker 1: this time around the table. Right, let's start with the

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Speaker 1: most recent news, as we're recording on May eighth, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: the US, the United States, announced that it was withdrawing

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Speaker 1: from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action or the JCPOA

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Speaker 1: for those of us who are acronym fans.

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Speaker 3: I'm a fan.

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Speaker 2: It's also known as the Iran Deal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or the Iran Nuclear Deal here in the States, Right,

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Speaker 1: that's an easy way to explain it in a few

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Speaker 1: syllables on the evening news.

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Speaker 5: And this decision was met with pretty widespread consternation from

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Speaker 5: some of our allies and fell participants in this deal.

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Speaker 3: I guess we're going to go into why that might be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's certainly a subject that is just rife with complexity,

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Speaker 2: and they were going to look into the history today,

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Speaker 2: we're going to look into what it could mean for

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Speaker 2: everyone involved. And let's talk about the deal itself.

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Speaker 3: True.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the deal was signed into effect in twenty fifteen

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Speaker 1: by members of the UN's Permanent Security Council, essentially the

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Speaker 1: winning side of World War Two, plus Germany and the

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Speaker 1: EU as its own entity, and then Iran and the

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Speaker 1: United States, which was part of the Permanent Security Council.

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Speaker 1: But they're one of the main actors in today's episode.

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Speaker 1: In exchange for freezing aspects of Iran's nuclear enrichment program

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Speaker 1: and submitting to intense, historically unprecedented investigation programs on site

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Speaker 1: in the country, Iran would receive partial sanctions relief. This

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Speaker 1: would allow the economically strapped country access to billions of dollars,

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Speaker 1: both in terms of potential billions of dollars for trade

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Speaker 1: and in terms of billions of dollars of real world

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Speaker 1: money that have been held frozen offshore by foreign powers

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Speaker 1: like the European Union and the United States.

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Speaker 5: I'm a big dummy when we say sanctions, that can

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Speaker 5: mean a couple different things. What does it mean in

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Speaker 5: this particular situation, is like a trade like a blocking

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Speaker 5: barring of trade?

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Speaker 1: Great question. Yeah, because again for those of us who

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Speaker 1: just hear these terms thrown around in the news, they're

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Speaker 1: not often explained. So sanctions are in general penalties for

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Speaker 1: breaking a law or an agreement. Just in general, you

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Speaker 1: can give someone a sanction yourself, should you somehow convince

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Speaker 1: them you have the authority to do it. In the

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Speaker 1: geopolitical sense, however, sanctions are part of what we would

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Speaker 1: call sticks and carrots of diplomacy. Carrot is an incentive

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Speaker 1: we will give x amount of dollars to do what

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Speaker 1: we want, or we will give you this nuclear hardware

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Speaker 1: or these chemical agents.

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Speaker 2: It is based around trade, right most of the time.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time, Yeah, thank god today. Military actions

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Speaker 1: can also be considered sanctions, depending on how they're rationalized.

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Speaker 5: And it could be something like imposing penalties or making

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Speaker 5: it less profitable to do business kind of I mean,

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Speaker 5: or impossible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. So typically when we hear the phrase sanctions,

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Speaker 1: apply what we're talking about as a genre of sanctions

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Speaker 1: called economic sanctions. I mentioned that carrots earlier. Economic sanctions

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Speaker 1: are a form of stick, a form of punishment, so

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Speaker 1: not enticing a state to change its behavior, but attempting

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Speaker 1: to force it to do so. The role of sanctions

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Speaker 1: in this conflict cannot be overstated, and it's primarily due

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Speaker 1: to the actions of the United States. The United States

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Speaker 1: is one of the few countries in the world that

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Speaker 1: can unilaterally apply sanctions. They can take their toys, they

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Speaker 1: can leave the playground, and now no one else can play.

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Speaker 1: That's that has been the case for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and that's a vast oversimplification, but here's how it works.

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Speaker 1: When the US wants to sanction a country, it helps

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Speaker 1: if they have an alliance with other allies, but if

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Speaker 1: they decide to go it alone, they can still screw

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Speaker 1: up the entire Rube Goldberg esque thing that is international trade.

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Speaker 1: Let's say they let's say they do an economic sanction regime,

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Speaker 1: wherein they say no US based businesses, so no like Boeing,

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Speaker 1: no Lockheed Martin Grumman, no financial institutions can economically interact

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Speaker 1: with a certain country or with trades involving that country.

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Speaker 1: At first, that sounds like okay, US is leaving the game.

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Speaker 1: There are more fish in the sea, there are more

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Speaker 1: badgers in the bag. But the problem is almost all

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Speaker 1: financial interactions at that level at some point in the

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Speaker 1: travel through a US financial institution, and once they do,

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Speaker 1: the money stops the game, the bubble pops. And on

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Speaker 1: the ground, this means that a sanctioned country literally cannot

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Speaker 1: buy or sell certain things, not just weapons of war,

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Speaker 1: but things like medical equipment, industrial components, you know, stuff

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Speaker 1: like let's say you have an ice cream factory and

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Speaker 1: you need a large enough boiler for some reason. Obviously

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Speaker 1: we have not researched ice cream factories, but if that

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Speaker 1: if that specific component falls under this sanction, then it

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Speaker 1: becomes very, very difficult for you to buy it. So

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Speaker 1: when Cuba, for instance, had sanctions during the Cold War,

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Speaker 1: it was not able to get life saving medical equipment.

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Speaker 1: And that's why if you travel to Cuba today, as

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Speaker 1: some of my contacts had recently, and you tour their hospitals,

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Speaker 1: several very important pieces of equipment in the HU hospital

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Speaker 1: are going to be German stuff from the fifties because

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Speaker 1: that's all they could get. This hospital is, by the way,

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Speaker 1: or not air conditioned, just to illustrate that man.

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Speaker 2: So the whole point with this deal that went through,

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Speaker 2: it was very difficult for it to actually happen, and

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Speaker 2: it happened in the previous administration under President Obama. And

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Speaker 2: it's if you look at the agreement itself, there are

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Speaker 2: all kinds of things that have problems with it, at

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Speaker 2: least on that either side would say this is kind

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Speaker 2: of a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's how you know it's a compromise exactly. No

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Speaker 1: one's entirely happy, yeah, yeah, And Matt, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: It took a long time to get everyone to the

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Speaker 1: table first and then to achieve anything. Most of the

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Speaker 1: global community was completely appalled to see the US withdraw

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Speaker 1: although under US law it is legal to do so.

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Speaker 1: Because our side of this agreement was what's called an

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Speaker 1: executive order, it was not ratified by Congress because it's

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Speaker 1: an executive order that means whomever occupies the position of

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Speaker 1: Commander in chief afterwards can just get rid of it

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Speaker 1: without running it past Congress or the American people. And

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Speaker 1: there was international support for this deal, primarily US allies

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Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia and Israel, who were also the key regional

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Speaker 1: rivals of Iran. They applauded the move, they said, this

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Speaker 1: is a way to prevent nuclear war.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, in a lot of this has to do with

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Speaker 2: these things called sunset clauses, which were built into the

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Speaker 2: agreement itself and specifically with the enrichment process, and which

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Speaker 2: centrifugees could be used at what time. I think there

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Speaker 2: was like an eight year what they called sunset clause,

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Speaker 2: where after eight years they could then begin enriching uranium

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Speaker 2: with these new versions of their.

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Speaker 1: Centrifuges, firing backup much more efficient.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. But the whole idea was that the people

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Speaker 2: who are fighting against us being in this deal were

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Speaker 2: saying they're just using these sun set clauses then to

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Speaker 2: be able to achieve nuclear weapons anyway.

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Speaker 1: Or they're secretly still conducting these things despite the investigations.

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Speaker 5: Isn't there argument that there's doing this to have nuclear

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Speaker 5: power like we do.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's argument is that's the thing. Everybody's argument is that

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Speaker 1: we are only pursuing nuclear capabilities to replace fossil fuels.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's since a nuclear weapon, since before a nuclear

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Speaker 2: weapon was even devised.

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Speaker 1: Sure, And it's tricky because when you study this kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff, the enrichment process for a weapon and for

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Speaker 1: a power plant are identical. The only difference is the

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Speaker 1: degree of enrichment. So you do just keep going yep,

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Speaker 1: and that regardless of what side you fall on. That's

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Speaker 1: a huge dilemma North Korea, for instance, when when you

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Speaker 1: speak with North Korean diplomats for years and years and years,

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Speaker 1: they were saying that they were peacefully pursuing nuclear power

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Speaker 1: as a means of economic independence, not as a means

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Speaker 1: of starting war. And who believed them, no one, no one,

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Speaker 1: No one would believe the US if they said that.

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Speaker 1: So right now here in the States where stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know is based, public opinion is divided.

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Speaker 1: On whether this was a smart decision to exit a

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Speaker 1: critically flawed agreement and again one that was not ratified

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Speaker 1: by Congress, or as shortsighted bellicost move to push the

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Speaker 1: region and ultimately the entire world closer to war. But

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Speaker 1: let's hold on for a second, and Rewind, Let's ask

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Speaker 1: some questions. How did we as a species get to

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Speaker 1: this point. How much does the average person in the

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Speaker 1: US know about Iran, about its history, about every single

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Speaker 1: thing leading up to this moment.

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Speaker 2: I would say not very much, at least I didn't

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Speaker 2: before studying this a while back, when we touched on

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Speaker 2: the Petro dollar and a couple other things like that.

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Speaker 2: So let's just jump right into it.

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts. We'll go through a very quick

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Speaker 1: broad rush Iran from the beginning of time to twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: We'll make it quick. We are not hardcore history, which

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Speaker 1: is a great show. I just want to point out,

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Speaker 1: so Iran is home to one of the world's oldest

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Speaker 1: continuous major civilizations, meaning that it was never a dead

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Speaker 1: man's land after it started. You can find settlements dating

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Speaker 1: back to seven thousand BCE. I mean, they're not super glamorous,

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Speaker 1: it's not like a casino or something.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, but there were humans there living together.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and we have to remember everybody involved in

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Speaker 1: these stories, these are all real people. Ancient Iran was

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Speaker 1: also known as Persia. It's an historic region of southwestern

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Speaker 1: Asia that is kind of located where Iran is now.

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Speaker 1: It's roughly the same boundary. The term Persia was used

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Speaker 1: for centuries mainly by folks in the West to designate

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Speaker 1: just regions where people spoke the Persian language or spoke

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Speaker 1: Farsi and what they perceived as Persian culture predominated. But

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Speaker 1: more correctly, the term Persia applies to a part of

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Speaker 1: southern Iran, which was known as Persis or pars or

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Speaker 1: Parsa or modern day fars And Parsa is the name

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Speaker 1: for an Indo European nomadic people who got into the

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Speaker 1: region around one thousand BCE, and the first mention occurs

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Speaker 1: from an Assyrian king back in eight hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: four BCE, so this is old. You may recognize the

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Speaker 1: historical figure Cyrus the Great. He was the founder of

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Speaker 1: the Arkhameneiad Empire, and this was the first Persian empire.

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Speaker 1: It ruled a huge swath of land central Asia. North Africa,

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Speaker 1: the Balkans, and the seat of power was Persepolis. This

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Speaker 1: was around five hundred and fifty to three hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty BC. So you'll hear a lot of people say

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Speaker 1: it was the first quote unquote world empire. It was

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Speaker 1: the only civilization in all of history to connect forty

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Speaker 1: percent of the globe. Granted, there weren't as many people

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Speaker 1: around at that time, but there were about In four

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty BC, for example, there were about one

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Speaker 1: hundred and twelve million people. One hundred give or take,

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Speaker 1: forty nine point four of those were member forty nine

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Speaker 1: point four million of those, excuse me, were members of

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Speaker 1: the first Persian Empire. And then there's a huge change

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Speaker 1: that affects the world and Iran today, and that was

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Speaker 1: the Arab invasion. So there's this huge misconception that's distressingly common.

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Speaker 1: And as the following, many people think that Iranians or

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Speaker 1: people from Iran are Arab. They are not. May speak Arabic,

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Speaker 1: but if they did, they learned it as a foreign language.

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Speaker 1: And Iran is, however, an Islamic country. During the eighth

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Speaker 1: to tenth centuries, Islam became the dominant religion and the

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Speaker 1: pre existing dominant religion, Zoastrianism, declined as well as many

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Speaker 1: of the other associated religions. But thankfully for everyone, and

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Speaker 1: I do mean everyone, the achievements and the scientific progress

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Speaker 1: of the previous Persian civilizations were not lost. They were

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Speaker 1: absorbed by this new growing civilization. And so that's ancient Iran,

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Speaker 1: multiple invasions, not Arabs, was a great empire, free Islam

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Speaker 1: before any of that happened. Now, let's fast forward to

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Speaker 1: the history of modern Iran. Of course, their oil industry.

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Speaker 1: It starts in nineteen oh one a British speculator named

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Speaker 1: William Darcy paid iron and was allowed to explore and

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Speaker 1: develop their oil resources in the south of the country.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it was that discovery of oil in nineteen

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Speaker 5: oh eight that led to the formation in nineteen oh

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Speaker 5: nine of the London based Anglo Persian Oil.

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Speaker 3: Company or APOC.

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Speaker 5: SO then by nineteen fourteen, the British government had gained

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Speaker 5: control over the Iranian oil industry, direct control which it

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Speaker 5: would not give up for thirty seven years.

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Speaker 3: Then after thirty five, the APOC was called.

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Speaker 5: The Anglo Iranian Oil Company or IOC AIOC.

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Speaker 1: And today it's just a good old BP.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, British Petroleum.

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Speaker 1: That BP down the street from you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they're just all about simplifying those those acronyms.

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Speaker 3: I like it.

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Speaker 5: They signed a sixty year agreement in nineteen thirty three

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Speaker 5: to establish a flat payment to Tehran of four pounds four

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Speaker 5: British pounds for every ton of crude oil exported, and

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Speaker 5: denied Iran any right to control oil exports.

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Speaker 1: So you get your flat fee, you don't get a

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Speaker 1: say and where we're selling it, how we're selling it,

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Speaker 1: or what kind of deals we're cracking.

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Speaker 3: It's like a sweetheart deal.

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Speaker 2: Well not for yeah, yeah, exactly. We can see there

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Speaker 2: that there the oil was controlled not by Iran up

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Speaker 2: into that point nineteen oh one, all the way into

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Speaker 2: the nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Thirties, and they were obviously getting the short end of

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Speaker 1: the stick with this deal. They, like many other countries,

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Speaker 1: sought to nationalize their oil resources back in nineteen fifty.

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Speaker 1: This directly led to a coup in nineteen fifty three,

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Speaker 1: an overthrow of their democratically elected governing structure, but not

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Speaker 1: a coup of the people, not a genuine mass of

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Speaker 1: the proletariat rising or something. No, This regime change came

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Speaker 1: from outside of Iran.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. There was a prime minister who had been

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Speaker 2: elected in everything, and then, of course not of course,

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Speaker 2: but as we have seen before, British and in this case,

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Speaker 2: American intelligence agencies both decided they needed to do something,

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Speaker 2: and it was mostly British intelligence contacting American intelligence and saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: we need your help with this tali ho Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: So they replaced the democratically elected prime minister, Mohammed Mozadek

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Speaker 2: with the with this guy that's known as the Shaw.

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Speaker 2: He was also known as the King of Kings to

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Speaker 2: his friends, and I guess to himself, to.

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Speaker 3: His friends, call me the King of King. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: like the informal name.

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Speaker 1: K okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well I think it was the Shaw, Simshaw, something

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Speaker 2: to that effect. Mohammed Reza Shaw, this dude.

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Speaker 1: Ben oh Lavia. Yeah, he was tremendously unpopular. Not an opinion,

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Speaker 1: that's a fact.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. You can find out more about this whole

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Speaker 2: situation that occurred during the nineteen fifty three Iranian coup

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Speaker 2: if you search for things like TPA Jax or Operation

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Speaker 2: Ajax that was the CIA's version, and also Operation boot

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Speaker 2: Bot that was the secret intelligence Service, the British Intelligence

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Speaker 2: Agency is also known as m I six.

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Speaker 1: That was their version, and so he ends up the Shaw.

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Speaker 1: It ends up being the last Shaw of Iran. The

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Speaker 1: timing will differ a little bit, but he would be

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Speaker 1: considered active, although not an absolute monarch, active from September

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty one until February of nineteen seventy nine when

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Speaker 1: he was overthrown by the Iranian people. And normally you

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Speaker 1: would think, wow, that's fantastic. The people a rising, up

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Speaker 1: right democracy. They are pursuing what they as a community

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Speaker 1: or as a state, consider their own will, their own independence. However,

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Speaker 1: the overthrow led to the creation of a theocratic regime,

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Speaker 1: a modern theocratic regime. They are the rulers of Iran today.

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Speaker 1: So there so what we see is a move ideologically right,

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Speaker 1: a move to a more western Iran under the Shaw,

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Speaker 1: and then all of.

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Speaker 2: A sudden you get a slingshot effect when it goes

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Speaker 2: when when Commanie comes into power.

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Speaker 5: Did you know that the English word check was derived

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Speaker 5: from the word Shaw, like the idea of checkers and

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Speaker 5: check and checkmate. I just was googling Shaw and that

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Speaker 5: came up.

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Speaker 1: That was really interesting, just googling shaw, googling Shaw baby,

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna we should start calling money shaws.

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Speaker 3: That's great.

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Speaker 5: Now it's derived from shaw from Persian via Arabic, Latin, French,

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Speaker 5: and related terms are chess, exchecker, and they also originate

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Speaker 5: from that word, though I don't see the connection in

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Speaker 5: the way it sounds. But shaw does mean king, and

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Speaker 5: I guess the idea of you know, king, you've made

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Speaker 5: just a silly aside, just to lighten the mood for

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Speaker 5: a second.

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Speaker 1: That's not silly, that's fine. I think that's really smart.

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Speaker 2: So now we've explored Iran from the beginning of time

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Speaker 2: all the way up until almost nineteen eighty, why don't

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Speaker 2: we jump into the modern Iran, or the more modern

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Speaker 2: Iran into today. But we'll do it right after a

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Speaker 2: quick hangout with a sponsor.

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Speaker 1: So in the decades since the overthrow, several of several

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Speaker 1: of your fellow conspiracy realists listening live may have been

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Speaker 1: around and seen this in the news. In the decade

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Speaker 1: since that nineteen seventy nine overthrow, Iran has been portrayed

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Speaker 1: as an adversary of the West, growing up member personally

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Speaker 1: thinking and trying to figure out as a kid. If

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Speaker 1: Star Trek was making political commentary and if Klangon's were

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Speaker 1: supposed to be like Iran or something interesting, it's a

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Speaker 1: very loaded, loaded show in terms of symbols.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in popular culture, Iran has has been the enemy

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Speaker 2: several times.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, and the primary antagonists of Iran historically have

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Speaker 1: been in Saudi Arabia, Israel, and the United States, and

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Speaker 1: its primary allies have been Russia and Syria, with some

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Speaker 1: European allies attempting to act as peace brokers or be neutral.

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Speaker 1: For most of us in the United States, Iran is

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Speaker 1: presented as a hardline Islamic theocracy and there is an

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Speaker 1: elected president, but the actual leader is the Ayatola, who

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Speaker 1: is the country's supreme religious authority. The current supreme Leader

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Speaker 1: of Iran is a fellow named Ayatola Ali Kamini's been

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Speaker 1: in power since nineteen eighty nine, ten years after the revolution.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Have you guys seen the new season of Curb Your

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Speaker 5: Enthusiasm where Larry gets a fatoa put out on him

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Speaker 5: because he makes fun of the Iyatola.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's great.

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Speaker 1: And he how does he get out of it?

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Speaker 3: Well that I don't want to spoil the season.

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Speaker 5: Okay, it does involve making He's got a musical idea

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Speaker 5: called Fatois the musical where he plays Salmon Rushdie, and

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Speaker 5: that displeases the Ayatola because he sort of makes fun

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Speaker 5: of him on a late show and that sets off

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Speaker 5: the absurdity that is Curby your Enthusiasm.

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Speaker 1: But there we do want to say, there's not a

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Speaker 1: racist representation any more so than is typical for Curby

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Speaker 1: your Enthusiasm. The religious authorities that he's beefed up with

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Speaker 1: are presented as ultimately like kind of cool people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, politicians, diplomats.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a real argument over catchup. I want to say, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's anyway, check it out.

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Speaker 5: It's fun, and it also gives you a little bit

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Speaker 5: of insight into this stuff through a slightly absurdist comedic

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Speaker 5: g once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well either way, nineteen eighty nine till twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 2: it's a long dang time to be in power.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I just only bring that up because the

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Speaker 5: idea of a Fatoa and that this man is so

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Speaker 5: powerful that he can literally snap his fingers and then

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Speaker 5: any of his followers are just you know, you're a

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Speaker 5: persona non grata.

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Speaker 3: We can end you, oh boy.

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Speaker 1: And a fatwah isn't always going to be by any

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Speaker 1: means some sort of mafia hit. They can be, but

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Speaker 1: a fatwah is more like a legal opinion almost, or

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Speaker 1: an authoritative declaration. So a fatwah could be a recognization

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Speaker 1: of a slight change in a ritual as well. But

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Speaker 1: we again in the West, are most often going to

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Speaker 1: hear of fatoas as a declaration that somebody is persona

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Speaker 1: non grata.

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Speaker 5: It's right, But I guess you say like you say

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Speaker 5: could also be a change in the sort of the

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Speaker 5: party line on interpretation of religious text, right, something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And the tension that permeated the

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Speaker 1: decades since the revolution, it's hard to distill it into

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Speaker 1: a single sentence or single example because there was so

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Speaker 1: much both on a regional and global scale, and there

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Speaker 1: was also outright conflict such as the Iran Iraq War

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Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty until nineteen eighty eight. This and then

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Speaker 1: series of other wars, some of which the US was

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Speaker 1: involved in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Gulf War, Operation Desert Storm and all that.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one. I mean, in my

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Speaker 2: mind as a child growing up. That is, That's how

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Speaker 2: I knew. That's the only reason I knew about Iran

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Speaker 2: and Iraq at that time through those conflicts.

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Speaker 1: Do everyone tell you I met Norman Schwartzcraft, the general.

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Speaker 1: No way, yeah, really, yeah, I was not not in

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Speaker 1: an official capacity. I should say I was a kid.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's like at a park, you guys. He was

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Speaker 2: just sitting on a bench and then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we sat on the other side of

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Speaker 1: the bench. We didn't talk, but we passed envelopes. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but that guy, you remember, was very prominent in the

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Speaker 1: American public eye during this time. What was accomplished in

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Speaker 1: those wars, it certainly wasn't the de escalation of this tension,

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Speaker 1: because the Middle East has further destabilized, and right now

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Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, distrust runs extremely high on all sides

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Speaker 1: of the conflict, because what we're looking at is the

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Speaker 1: escalation of a proxy war in the Middle East. So

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Speaker 1: one thing that is a an open secret it feels

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Speaker 1: weird to even called a secret, is that the government

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Speaker 1: of Iran funds militias in other countries. In Syria, in Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: there's his ble Luck and some of these some of

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Speaker 1: these organizations are considered by the West to be terrorist groups,

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Speaker 1: but to their supporters, they're considered to be freedom fighters,

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Speaker 1: which is another definition or contradiction that we run into often.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking of freedom fighters, you may recall the

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Speaker 2: US's involvement with the Iran Contra scandal, where we were

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Speaker 2: illegally selling weapons to Iran without Congress knowing, without anyone

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Speaker 2: else knowing. And then there's the whole the whole situation

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Speaker 2: with US selling weapons to Iraq as well during the

439
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: Iran Iraq War. So there's just the United States and

440
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: this region. It just has this history, man, where we

441
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: tend to do some shady stuff.

442
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: Right, right, And maybe that's the fog of war. Maybe

443
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: there's something larger at play, because one of the questions

444
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 1: that we consistently run into when we talk about why

445
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: there's intervention in one state or one region over another,

446
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: one of the things we run into is whether there

447
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: is something greater at play behind the curtain. So consider,

448
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: for instance, countries that are resource poor or at least

449
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: comparatively not as fortunate in terms of the resources. Consider

450
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: all the countries that are struggling with poverty, with human

451
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: rights abuse, with brutal authoritarian dictatorships. Why is the US

452
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: not there? Why is the West not there? For some people,

453
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: for the cynics in the crowd, the answer is resource

454
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: based and Iran's case, they argue that this intervention is

455
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: specifically due to the oil that was discovered way back

456
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds. So what's going on with

457
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: Iran and oil?

458
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: I just got to say, I don't think you have

459
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: to be cynical to have that few. I think you

460
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: just got to have your eyes open, bro, That's all

461
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: I'm saying.

462
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 5: And the guys, if you just to set the scene,

463
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 5: Matt's eyes right now are wide open.

464
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: Well, just here's a quote from the World Bank. Ready,

465
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: Iran ranks second in the world, second in the world

466
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 2: in natural gas reserves, and fourth in the world improven

467
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: crude oil reserves. Like, just okay, that's massive. This world

468
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 2: still to this day runs on oil. And just knowing

469
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: that that exists there, all that crude oil underneath the

470
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: feet of each and every Iranian human being that I

471
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: don't know, I think that tells a lot about the

472
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 2: current situation and past situations.

473
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: Absolutely agreed, there's a massive amount of energy in the

474
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 1: ground there that is not under BP's control. That is

475
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: not under the control of a Western energy conglomerate or

476
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: a state actor.

477
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: Right yep, and what it could be ben.

478
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: It was once upon a time.

479
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: That would be again, remember the good old days.

480
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: Did we mention in nineteen oh seven Russia and Britain's

481
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: secret treaty no to divide Iran?

482
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: No?

483
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll get to that. Okay, Russia is their ally.

484
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 3: I remember.

485
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: So we've got this quick look at the broad strokes

486
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: of Irani and geopolitical history and current climate. As we said,

487
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: vastly oversimplified, but we wanted to hit some of those

488
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: big points. It's easy to see how Iran's antagonists would

489
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: not want the country to have any sort of nuclear capability,

490
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: regardless of weather. Like to Knowle's point, regardless of how

491
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: much they say it's just for peaceful purposes, there's not

492
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: really a way to stop it, right. You can't separate

493
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: the two, right, you can't. There's not a different process.

494
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, but we're not going to like stop making nuclear power.

495
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 5: It's not like we're standing in line to give up

496
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 5: all this stuff.

497
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 1: It's true we still have the second largest number of

498
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: nuclear warheads. We be in the US, Matt and NOL.

499
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: It's funny.

500
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: I actually looked it up. We only get twenty percent

501
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: of our power from nuclear It's true.

502
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: True. Well, we also have a very powerful uh fossil

503
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: fuel based industry and they have a lot of legislative hooks.

504
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, big time.

505
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 5: And speaking of legislative hooks or I guess hang ups,

506
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 5: it's very difficult to build new nuclear power.

507
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: Plants in this country. Oh yeah, very difficult.

508
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 5: I actually used to cover that was my beat when

509
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 5: I was a reporter for Georgia Public Radio and I

510
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 5: covered the new reactor they were trying to build it

511
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 5: planted Vogel and Augusta, and it's still hung up in

512
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 5: red tape. It's been years. I think they just can't

513
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 5: make it happen. So all the ones we have are

514
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 5: aging and very very old legacy reactors.

515
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: And need extensive infrastructure repairs.

516
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: Time.

517
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: This is interesting. I just you know, just as aside.

518
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: And there's another there's another question here. What what's the

519
00:30:54,280 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: motivation for this general historical tension? What went wrong? What's

520
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: happening now? Why? That's the big question.

521
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: Why.

522
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: We'll answer it after a word from our sponsors. Here's

523
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. So oddly enough, not being sarcastic here,

524
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: it is kind of odd. You will hear continuing and

525
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 1: contradictory explanations for the historically aggressive actions of modern Western

526
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: powers against Iran and for Iran's actions in the region.

527
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: In the case of the first oil exportation agreements, Darcy

528
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: remember him from earlier, did pay for the concession. But

529
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: it was, as you guys said, a sweetheart deal. And

530
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: just a few years later, by nineteen oh seven there's

531
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: that secret treaty we were mentioning. Russia and Britain already

532
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: signed a deal to divide Iran up between themselves without

533
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: consulting the Iradian government.

534
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

535
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: So Russia said, we want the top half, we want

536
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: more control of Central Asia. We're still playing the Great Game.

537
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: And Britain said, cool, we want the bottom half because

538
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: we have oil there and we consider it ours the

539
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: great game.

540
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: By the way, if you don't know what that is,

541
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: listen to our episode on the Great Game.

542
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: It's a great game, man, between.

543
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: Russia and well, I was going to say Europe, but

544
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: in the United Kingdom mostly.

545
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh man, that was fascinating. I think that you

546
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: know what, I think some of those guys on the

547
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: Russian side. I think they really did believe in magic.

548
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: I think they did believe they were practicing you could stuff.

549
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: I mean, you kind of had to in the time.

550
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: It was really the sign of the times.

551
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: You know what, You're probably correct, and speaking of the times.

552
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: In World War One, Iran was again a battleground for

553
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: rival imperialist powers. It during World War One, Iran said, hey,

554
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: we're neutral, we're staying out of this. So the British

555
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: forces invaded to guard their oil lifeline because you know,

556
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 1: they're in naval power and they needed this fossil fuel

557
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: to be the engine for their war effort.

558
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And remember all the oil at this time in

559
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: Iran is controlled by Britain.

560
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: Right, but they're still getting a flat rate, I believe, Yeah,

561
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: Right to Nol's earlier point. The the thing here is

562
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: we see some of the first contradictions occurring early on.

563
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: So we said, we mentioned Britain's obsession with Iranian oil, right,

564
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: or Persian oil as they called it at the time.

565
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: The Western powers in World War One advanced an ideological argument,

566
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: one that is probably going to be familiar with a

567
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: lot of people today. They said, we're fighting World War

568
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: one because we want to free the Middle East from

569
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: this outdated Ottoman rule, from the Ottoman Empire. It's feudalism,

570
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: they said, that's garbage, juice, that's trash.

571
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we want Iran to be independent and free

572
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: and of its own rule, right, that's what they said.

573
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds that sounds real.

574
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, people should be free, right.

575
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, but just looking out for your best interest Iron.

576
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: And we're gonna help you protect your oil.

577
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 5: Be a shame if something happened all that oil, right.

578
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: So for people who are critical of Western actions in

579
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: Iran over the past century, to them, this narrative, this

580
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: story is one of repression, of controlling resources and extracting

581
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: them for the benefit of a foreign power. For those

582
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: who are supportive of intervention in Iran, not just what

583
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: has happened recently or what may be happening soon, the

584
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: issue comes down to a couple of publicly declared beliefs.

585
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia believes that if Iran is not economically isolated,

586
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: not militarily crippled, it will strengthen its influence beyond its border.

587
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: It will use its proxy groups, its military organizations to

588
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: disrupt the status quot to take economic resource control away

589
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: from Saudi Arabia while also propagating Shia Islam in areas

590
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: that are under Sunni Islam control. So one of the

591
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: things that Saddam Hussein was worried about when he was

592
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: in control of Iraq was that the Shia population of

593
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: Iraq would rise up and destabilize the state.

594
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just so you've probably heard this in the

595
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: news or somewhere. Groups like Hesbala are one of those

596
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: proxy groups somewhat controlled by Iran.

597
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

598
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and this becomes an ideological battle in many respects,

599
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: a truly ideological battle, because from the Saudi perspective, there's

600
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: a struggle against disruption and instability. And this is a

601
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: huge concern given the chaos that's already consumed. Iraq is

602
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: eating Syria as we speak, and plagues Yemen. Saudi forces

603
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: are already heavily entrenched in Yemen, and you know, you

604
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: don't hear much about it on the news.

605
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: It is interesting how Yemen was all over the news

606
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: for what a month or two, maybe not even that long,

607
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: a couple of cycles. Yeah, and then it went away.

608
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: But the fighting hasn't stopped.

609
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: The fighting hasn't stopped just because the cameras stopped rolling. Right,

610
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: It's something we would all do well to remember. The

611
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: second thing, and I should say these are not first

612
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: and second in terms of any kind of priority or hierarchy.

613
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: The second thing concerns the government of Israel, which sees

614
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: Iran and as an existential threat, meaning that they don't

615
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: see Iran as some sort of rival nation that might

616
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: compete in trade. They see it as a country that

617
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: has prioritized eliminating their country.

618
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: It's a ticking time bomb.

619
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, just so right, like how various Israeli prime ministers

620
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: have said Iran is one year away from making a

621
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: nuclear bomb, or like.

622
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 5: The way we worry that like sunflares are going to

623
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 5: fry us all in our sleep.

624
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's I'm not getting Yeah, it's because

625
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: it's really it's not a question of a small conflict.

626
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: It's their thinking in terms of every man, woman and child.

627
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's an ancient theological disagreement essentially. Was what

628
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 2: that boils down to? The tension there?

629
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was around long before the United States.

630
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: Long before the oil was important at.

631
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: All, long before the laser disc Definitely, I think I

632
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: had a misstep.

633
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 3: There have you ever actually held a laser disc. Yeah,

634
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: it's the weirdest thing in the world. It's like a

635
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: giant gold lp You to flip it.

636
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 5: You have to flip it part way through and steem like,

637
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 5: what the hell you be getting an expensive thing?

638
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 3: A movie and I have to flip the movie.

639
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I no, no, I I got worked up

640
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 5: about this.

641
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: This is a legitimate gripe. Noel I had. I had

642
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: people under the stairs, and it ruined the flow, the

643
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: cinematic flow.

644
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 5: Film about flipping a record because you sequence the record

645
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 5: and I have like sort of.

646
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: Like a little moment to pause and reflect movies.

647
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: No, so what did these people under the stairs do

648
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: for you to keep them under the stairs?

649
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 3: They were cannibally zombie things.

650
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: They were. So there was a couple that was religious.

651
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: There were religious extremists, and if children did not adhere

652
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: to their rules, the children they adopted, they would mutilate

653
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: them and force them to live in this cartoonishly large

654
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 1: basement where they became cattle.

655
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 3: And there was a gimp suit. I remember that. Actually,

656
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 3: as it turns out funny, you should mention this.

657
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 5: It's actually meant to be an allegory for the US's

658
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 5: relationship with Iran whoa gimp suit and all my friends.

659
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: Wait, are you being serious?

660
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 5: I am not being serious. Okay, I'm sure we could

661
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 5: worm our weight.

662
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: We did get there.

663
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 5: Actually, it turns out all Wes Craven movies, especially the

664
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 5: Nightmare on Elm Street series, are complex allegories for a

665
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 5: geopolitical conflicts.

666
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: That's right, so right to us, right to us with

667
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: the name of Wes Craven film, and one of us

668
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: will explain to you exactly which geopolitical conflict that is

669
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: an analogy for.

670
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: What if it might take us a while to figure

671
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: it out.

672
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: What if we ask people to send us their the

673
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: movie and why they think it's an allegorical geopolitical thing,

674
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: because no better. I would love to get their ideas,

675
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: or just send us your entire dissertation on you know,

676
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: which which film and what which conflict it represents.

677
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't speak for everyone, but I will. I

678
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: love reading dissertations when you all send them in. We

679
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: got a great one regarding Arthur Conan Doyle and Sherlock

680
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: Holmes from our pal Simon Workman.

681
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 3: Or do it verbally by calling our eight hundred number.

682
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: One eight three three std WYTK.

683
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 3: We will play it on the show. We swear.

684
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can't wait to hear from you, assuming that

685
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: the world as we know it still exists when you

686
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: are hearing this. So back to the idea of this

687
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: existential threat. It's not to say that destabilization is not

688
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: a problem, but not existing is a huge problem, right

689
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: from their perspective, from anyone's perspective. Yeah, yeah, So as

690
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: so long as Iran exists in anything close to its

691
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: current political state, the government of Israel believes Iran will

692
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: spend massive amounts of time, weaponry, and blood attempting to

693
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: eradicate it entirely from the earth, threatening disputed regions that

694
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: Iran considers to be its own territory, like the Golan

695
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: Heights right, which were Syrian territory for a while, or

696
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 1: threatening to influence areas that Israel later hopes to incorporate

697
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: into its territory, for example, in future peace settlements with Palestine. Right.

698
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: In the US, this is often This is often reported, right,

699
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: and it's reported around the world because that is the belief,

700
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: and here in the US at least, we often see

701
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: that cited as something that applies to the States as well. Right,

702
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: and you'll see the chance of protesters saying death to

703
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: America or death to the West, or calls from Iranian

704
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: hardline politicians saying we need to eradicate this nation. In

705
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: the past, some Western powers have portrayed their interventions in

706
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: Iran not as a mission for resource extraction and economic control,

707
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: but as another theater in the Great War of ideas,

708
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: the Great War between capitalism and communism. So there was

709
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: always a reason to go into Iran. Those reasons have

710
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: changed over time, but there has always been some sort

711
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: of reason, and we have to ask ourselves are we

712
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: talking about is it really about hearts and minds? It's

713
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: really about survival? Is it about ideology? Or is it

714
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: about as Smedley Butler would say, is it about being

715
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: an economic hit man? Is it about extracting and controlling

716
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: the means of wealth and production. Yes, that's that's what

717
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: a lot of I mean that. That is what a

718
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: lot of people say, including people who support intervention in Iran.

719
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: Like fans of real politic sort of the Kissinger descendants,

720
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: They will say, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely communists, definitely communism

721
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: mainly oil. But also yeah, definitely communism mainly oil, though Yeah, uh,

722
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: that's that's true. So for critics on either side, here's

723
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: the weird party. They both believe. There's plenty of stuff

724
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know about this conflict. So

725
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: for people who see this as a matter of ideological threats,

726
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,479
Speaker 1: those opposing further harsh sanctions and military incursions, the quote

727
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: unquote moderates, they're the same thing as anybody who's actively

728
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: supporting iron So for many of these people, if you say, well,

729
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: these sanctions are counteractive or they're they're not going to

730
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: have the attended effect. What they're hearing is that you're saying,

731
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm a member of Hezbolah because there's extremism there. It's

732
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: the old if you're not with us, you're against this

733
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: mentality that we see in so many ideological arguments, right,

734
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: and this idea hinges on the concept of Iran as

735
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: a hardline theocracy. But hey, guess what it is.

736
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.

737
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: I mean, and again, this is not the people, this

738
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: is just the government.

739
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 3: Right.

740
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: The fear here is that arising Iran would inevitably become

741
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: a nuclear power and exert brutal control over the region,

742
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: possibly discriminating against non Muslims. Or Muslims who were not

743
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: their branch, who were not from their branch of Islam, right,

744
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: so Sunni Muslims for instance.

745
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

746
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: Basically it would just be a brand new Persian empire

747
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: from the old.

748
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: Days, one that would attempt to take over Saudi Arabia,

749
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: erase Israel, and turn the other countries in the area

750
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: into puppet states, you know, with some kind of ten

751
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: pot uh dictator or dare I say a shaw In

752
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: other words, they think Iran would do to other countries

753
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: the same thing that Britain did to Iran in the.

754
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: Past, and that is a I would say, a good

755
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: fear for those which had done harm to it in

756
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: the past. It's a it's at least a it's good

757
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 2: to at least imagine that, because you one does reap

758
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 2: what one sews, right.

759
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: Well, it's also understandable. It's not like it would be

760
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: a sudden plot twist.

761
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. You know, if you're writing that out in

762
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 2: a revenge movie, that's what would happen.

763
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: Which I think was it? Which nightmare on Elm Street

764
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: is that?

765
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 3: Is it?

766
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: Dream Wars Wars? Yeah, I think it's Dream Wars. And

767
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: when we were watching that one for people who see

768
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: this as purely a matter of resource control, the Iranian

769
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: oil reserves, specifically the energy reserves or natural gas reserves,

770
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: et cetera, are too important globally to not be used,

771
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: to not be part of this great supply chain. But

772
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: for people who are opponents of Iran, that resource is

773
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: also too important to be used to the advantage of

774
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: this state. And many of the people who believe this

775
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: is entirely matter of resource economic control are opponents of

776
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: Western intervention in Iran. But here's the thing. Those people

777
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: who are opponents of Western intervention in Iran, they are

778
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: not opponents of intervention in general. Got to remember, Russia, right,

779
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: is a great ally of Iran. They also attempted to

780
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: cut it in half and take over it.

781
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: It was a long time ago, buddy, don't worry.

782
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: It was a little more than this century.

783
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: Again, we're cool now.

784
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: We're cool now. We're cool now. But this what we're

785
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: saying here, what we're showing, is that the pat explanations

786
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: that you are receiving on the news of your tune

787
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: into broadcast stuff. If you're listening for four or five

788
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: minutes on your way home to something, they're either going

789
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: to be about a very specific event, such as the

790
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: eleven minute speech on May eighth, withdrawing from this agreement,

791
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 1: or they're going to or they're going to pass over

792
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: a lot of the history that led to these moments,

793
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: these these kinds of things, These conflicts never occur in

794
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: a vacuum. Yeah, there's not a leader who wakes up,

795
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: has a bad day, finds out the palace is out

796
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: of Ovaltine, and then decides to you know, bomb Uzbekistan.

797
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what you will hear when you're

798
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: listening to those A lot of the times, what's that

799
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: You'll hear someone from the Rand Corporation or some other

800
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: think tank come on and tell you exactly what's going

801
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: on in their in their sphere, their analysis, right, and

802
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: it's and it's usually one of these exact stances.

803
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: So what is Yeah, we have we still not on

804
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: an episode on think tanks?

805
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so.

806
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: No, do you guys have a favorite think tank?

807
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: I don't know. I would you consider Council on Foreign

808
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: Relations in some way a think tank?

809
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, not like a White House think tank?

810
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 3: Yeah? What about like the Southern Poverty Lost in It

811
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 3: or something like that.

812
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: Hey, that's a you know what, I would consider that

813
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: a think tank.

814
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 5: To be honest, I think think tank is kind of

815
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 5: I think think tank is kind of an amorphous concept.

816
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 5: I don't quite fully understand what makes a think tank.

817
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like an umbrella term, almost right, because they

818
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 1: do a lot of different things.

819
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 3: It's like a work group.

820
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, pay a bunch of very well informed people

821
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: to get together and well inform each other.

822
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: Consults, policy wonks, experts, professors. Well, we want to hear

823
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: what your favorite think tanks are too, or the most

824
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: dangerous ones ran euro up there. But at this point

825
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: we have to we have have to end an episode

826
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: with no real conclusions. We don't know what's going to

827
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: happen in the Middle East over the next few months,

828
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: over the next year, but we do know that currently

829
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: we no matter where we live, no matter where you're

830
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: listening to this from, unless you are in space currently

831
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: and planned to stay there, in which case, high and

832
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: thanks for checking out the show.

833
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also good on you. That's a difficult life

834
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: to leave.

835
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, zero gravity is very bad for you, But as

836
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: long as you are living on the same ball of

837
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: mud and fire with the rest of us, you and

838
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: Matt and Noel and Paul and I are all in

839
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: the middle of an extremely dangerous and fragile time. The

840
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: already destabilized Middle East may well become the starting point

841
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: for World War three. I know that sounds hyperbolic. I

842
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: know that sounds alarmist, and I know people say that

843
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: about like everything that ever happened.

844
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 2: Well, but maybe it's already maybe it has already become Yeah.

845
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 1: I read something recently where a commentator said they had

846
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: the increasingly creepy feeling that they were living through a

847
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: future Wikipedia paragraph titled events leading to the War.

848
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it doesn't it. You're right, Ben, that you're

849
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: saying that everything feels like it could be that. Yeah,

850
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 2: increasingly so, I would say it feels like that.

851
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: And again, they don't happen in a vacuum. Here's where

852
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: we are. As as we're recording this, Israel and Iran

853
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: are firing directly at each other's stuff through Syria, right,

854
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: and Iran publicly stated that if the deal collapses, just

855
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: because the US pulled out, by the way, doesn't mean

856
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: it's going to collapse. It just severely weakens it. That

857
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: they said that if the deal collapses they're going to

858
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: stop holding up their end of the bargain and they

859
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:00,959
Speaker 1: will resume enrichment activities, to which Saudi Arabia immediately said, well,

860
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: if Iran resumes nuclear Richmond activities, we're going to assume

861
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: they're making a bomb, and that means we're going to

862
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: get a bomb too. Israel right now, for anyone who

863
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: doesn't know, officially, has a stance called strategic ambiguity when

864
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: it applies to nuclear weapons. They have never stated that

865
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: they have a nuclear weapon, but they got some, but

866
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 1: it is barely an open secret that they that they do.

867
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: Even NPR today mentioned Israel being the only major nuclear

868
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: power in the region.

869
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: Right and the United States does likely have nuclear weaponry

870
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: positioned around there. No one knows what the Russian submarine

871
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: boundaries are, how far out those nuclear subs go. But

872
00:50:54,840 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: what we do know is that if a million tarry

873
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: conflict escalates, the US is well positioned to exert control

874
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: outside of the borders. But invading Iran would be a bloodbath.

875
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: And you can look at a map that the three

876
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: of us have all seen off air. You can look

877
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 1: at a map of military bases in the Middle East

878
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: and how they ring Iran US military bases. They're through

879
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: the Strait of Hormuz, which I think we cover in

880
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: the Petro Dollar, They're through Central Asia, they're ringing the

881
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: boundaries of the country. And this all means that if Iran,

882
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: perhaps with outside assistance, like a figure like aq Khan

883
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: who gave Pakistan the bomb, if Iran has outside assistance

884
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 1: or independently creates or even gets closer to creating a bomb,

885
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: than in short order, there could very easily be not

886
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: one but three nations in the Middle East with nuke

887
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:05,359
Speaker 1: and with millennia old conflicts.

888
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: And waiting surrounded by subs with.

889
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: Nukes, surrounded by subs with nukes, surrounded by military bases. Yeah.

890
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: And this there's a big question here though if and

891
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: it goes back to North Korea as well, like, if

892
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons are so dangerous in terms of relationship with

893
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: other countries, why would someone pursue them?

894
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think we see a great example of this

895
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: with the current negotiations with North Korea. For the first

896
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 2: time in a long time, North and South Korea came

897
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 2: together and actually began having talks, and then the United

898
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 2: States is now going to be meeting with North Korea

899
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: and you know, they're allegedly the discussions will be about

900
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: disarming even North Korea and stopping their nuclear capabilities. But

901
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: they're coming to that table with nukes, and just being

902
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: able to sit down for negotiations with a nuke, I

903
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: think creates a much more powerful position than if you

904
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: might be getting some nukes. That's a dangerous position.

905
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 5: Can we talk for a second, just to as we

906
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 5: wrap up why the current administration is so opposed to

907
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 5: the Iran nuclear deal, why it's such a bad deal?

908
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, quote I was doing quote fingers.

909
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there's a There are a couple of thoughts

910
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: about that, and supporters of the current administration see it

911
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: as following through on a campaign promise. While campaigning for

912
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: the office of the presidency, Donald Trump cited the Iran

913
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 1: deal as the worst deal he'd ever seen. He also

914
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 1: said that he understands it more than anybody else. Yeah,

915
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: than any anyone else. Like he's done a ton of

916
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: research on it, and.

917
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 3: The it seems to me like it's more. He just

918
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 3: means he's done a lot of deals.

919
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 5: He's uniquely qualified to dissect and understand deals.

920
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 3: Well.

921
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: He has some generals in his ear that are telling

922
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 2: him about these sunset rights parts of the deal and saying, hey,

923
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: this is really dangerous. This isn't gonna work. They're still

924
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: going to make it right bomb.

925
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: Supporters of the deal, including former President Barack Obama, who

926
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: signed the executive order, saw it as a way to

927
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: buy time to denuclearize or Iran or prevent it permanently

928
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: from acquiring nuclear weaponry. Opponents of the deal and Clio's

929
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: generals that you mentioned, Matt, say all we're doing we're

930
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 1: not buying time for ourselves. We're giving time to a

931
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: to a belligerent government that is sure gonna shake hands

932
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: and play nice at the table, but then when they

933
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 1: go back, they're going.

934
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 3: To make a bomb.

935
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there we're not really stopping them. And there

936
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: was a there was cooperation, international cooperation leading to the

937
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: Trump administration's announcement, because you'll remember, just before he announced

938
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 1: they were pulling out of the deal, the media and

939
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: or at least here in the US, released a story

940
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: that showed israel I believe had acquired some documents that

941
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: they said indicated Iran was not holding up its end

942
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: of the park. And those things have been tossed back

943
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 1: and forth by policy walks regarding their import or their veracity.

944
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: But that's ultimately it is the idea that the deal

945
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: didn't completely cut off nuclear activity at the budge, I see.

946
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 5: And yet there are still supporters and people that are

947
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 5: remaining in the deal, like allies of ours, that are

948
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,479
Speaker 5: sort of disappointed that we are making this move.

949
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, much like the Paris Agreement exactly.

950
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 5: And I think at least Obama came out and have this,

951
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 5: having been his show getting this thing put together, said

952
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 5: it was mainly about creating a sense that we're not

953
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 5: going to follow through with our commitments, and that could

954
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 5: cause destabilization.

955
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 3: In terms of our relationships with others.

956
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 5: The expectation that we will just you know, turn tail

957
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 5: at the last one when it suits us.

958
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: That is the huge that that is the huge problem

959
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: with the precedent being set, because look, other countries will

960
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: have experts who know about how domestic US politics work,

961
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: and sure they will understand the legality of this contradiction,

962
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: but it also violates the concept of keeping one's word

963
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: as a country, and this will make things tremendously difficult

964
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: going forward in various aspects of international policy. One thing

965
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: that's getting a lot of play now is the successful

966
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: or seemingly successful negotiations that are starting with DPRK or

967
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: North Korea, and they may denuclearize, they may not. It's

968
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 1: it's impossible to predict the few with full accuracy, but

969
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: it is entirely is entirely a beneficial thing for rival

970
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 1: world powers like China and Russia to be able to say, hey,

971
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: we may not be perfect, but if we agree to you,

972
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: agree with you that we'll do something, we'll actually do it.

973
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

974
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: And that's that's I mean, that's a dangerous thing. So

975
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: we're going over our time. Michigan ConTroll is probably getting

976
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: a little little irritated with us. And this is this

977
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: is a scary, scary subject, and it's tremendously controversial. But

978
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: if we end on anything, we should we should end

979
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: on the most important part to remember. The most important

980
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: thing to remember in this entire episode is that in Iran,

981
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: in Israel and Saudi Arabia and the United States, the

982
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: people and the government are not the same. They often

983
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: do not hold the same beliefs as their leaders. The

984
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: nation of Iran, the nation from Saudi Arabia and Israeliti

985
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: United States, it's not one big army of people who

986
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: dress up in uniform and can't wait to kill anyone

987
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: who doesn't look like them or doesn't you know, have

988
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,959
Speaker 1: the same opinion of what makes a good pizza.

989
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: Just imagine a single teacher in every single one of

990
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 2: those nations that wakes up in the morning, gets in

991
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 2: their vehicle whatever it is, gets to work, works, goes home,

992
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 2: goes to bed, gets back up, gets in their vehicle,

993
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 2: goes to work, and just does it over and over

994
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: and over again. They're all human beings.

995
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they wake up in the morning just like us.

996
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: They hate traffic, just like anybody who's in traffic.

997
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 3: Pants one leg at a time, like people say humans do.

998
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have ridiculous in jokes and crushes and frenemies.

999
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: They probably like some of the same music that you do,

1000
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: because music is everywhere.

1001
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 3: Chances are they enjoy cheese. Yeah.

1002
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: They probably think your country's leaders are kind of looney tunes,

1003
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: and unless they are Russian, the odds are that they're

1004
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: not too impressed with their own leaders either. We say

1005
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: that because Putin has a massive approval rating officially, and

1006
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 1: they all believe that they are the good guys. So

1007
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: what do you believe, folks? Is this a conflict of

1008
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 1: self preservation? Is a resource control? Is it a matter

1009
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: of ideology? Hearts and minds? And freedom? And what does

1010
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: freedom mean in this situation? And how does freedom for

1011
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: one group affect freedom for another?

1012
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 3: These are great questions. I don't know the answer. Yeah, well,

1013
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 3: you know for crowdsourcing this, yeah, I think we have to.

1014
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 2: So what do you think? Write to us on Twitter

1015
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: or Facebook or Conspiracy Stuff. You can find us on

1016
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: Instagram Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you want to give us

1017
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 2: a call again, our number is one eight three three

1018
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 2: st d w y TK. Call that number right now,

1019
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 2: leave us a message. You might get it on the air, yeah,

1020
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 2: if you want. And that's the end of this classic episode.

1021
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,

1022
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: you can get into contact with us in a number

1023
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 2: of different ways. One of the best is to give

1024
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 2: us a call. Our number is one eight three three

1025
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 2: st d WYTK. If you don't want to do that,

1026
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 2: you can send us a good old fashioned email.

1027
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1028
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1029
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,680
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1030
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,960
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