WEBVTT - Tears For Fears 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.840 Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:07.960 Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan run Tug, 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:10.920 but enough about me today, I'm speaking to one of 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.920 the most innovative and influential groups of the nineteen eighties. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.720 Named for a quote from pioneering psychologist Arthur Yan of 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.159 their stunning breakthrough, The Hurting helped bring the topic of 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.000 mental health into popular music and radio hits like Mad World, 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.880 Shout Sowing the Seeds of Love, and of course, the 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.560 immortal MTV classic Everybody Wants to Rule the World helped 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.720 inspire the sound of a host of contemporary artists, ranging 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.560 from the Weekend Lord in the ninety to hip hop 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.400 titans like Drake and Kanye West. The duo parted company 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.960 at the dawn of the nineties, only to join forces 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.680 once again for the well received two thousand three album 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.440 Everybody Loves a Happy Ending. As the title suggests, this 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:53.840 was intended to be a short lived reunion. Most of 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.440 the tie up loose ends musically and give fans a 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.280 sense of closure, But now, almost two decades later, they're 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.320 back with the tipping point. The record had something of 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.119 a difficult birth, taking shape over the course of nearly 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.240 ten years. Early sessions with a crew of outside songwriters 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.320 left the band so uninspired that they nearly parted company 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.319 once again. But then the pair got back to basics, 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:18.840 holding up in a room with acoustic guitars, just like 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.720 they did when they first teamed up as teens. The 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.280 resulting record is a stunning display of musical virtuosity and 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.680 radical vulnerability, inspired in large part by the death of 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.240 Roland Orzabal's wife. Occasionally dark and moody, but never Maudlin, 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.760 it's a hopeful meditation on mental health, mortality, and moving on. 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.360 I'm so happy to welcome rolland Orzibal and Kurt Smith, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:52.040 who together are Tears for Fears. In the statement for 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.200 the album's release, you had words to the effective before 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.040 everything went so right. First, everything had to go wrong, 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.120 And I feel like that's how the best arts it 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.920 a little bit of adversity. Uh. You originally working on 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:06.440 a very different album made with a host of outside writers, 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.919 basically a collection of potential singles, rather than an album 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.040 that that spoke for you and your shared experience. And 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.360 I think I've read that you jokingly called it UH 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.919 twos for Fierce to Musical, which sums it up pretty well. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.680 How did you go from there to the tipping point 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.040 which is just so deeply personal and meaningful and honest 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.680 and just has such a surplus of soul. Was there 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.480 a point when you know you realize you had to 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.560 go in this different direction? Um? Yeah, I think so. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.960 I mean we were, as you said, we we've it 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.840 felt like a collection of attempts at a single. So 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.359 so the premise was, you know that we we should 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.440 go and write with you know, modern songwriter hit writers 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.320 produces um and try and drag us kicking and screaming 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.080 into the twenty one century. Um. But the problem with 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.080 that is you don't have a shared history. Um. They 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.720 don't have that. The lyrical content um, and the subject 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.360 matters really kind of secondary to them. Most of the time. 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.000 They're looking for sort of melody lines and production more 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.600 than anything else. And we didn't feel it was particularly honest, 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.360 and by the end of it, well, we felt we 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.679 were left it with. You know, basically, we had this 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.440 finished album with twelve tracks. There were twelve attempts at 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:25.400 a modern hit single, and it didn't have any storyline 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.639 or arc or EBB and flow and really didn't tell 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.640 our story. Um lyrically, it didn't have the depth, and 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.000 so we kind of went back to the drawing board 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.640 and went full circle and decided to sit down in 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.400 my house in Los Angeles and write with two acoustic 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.680 guitars and see what came from that. And this one song, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.000 the opening track of the album, No Small Thing, came 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.200 and we had in in. In the sort of interim 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.880 period between deciding we wanted to finish this and writing 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.160 that song, we'd gone back over the old material to 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.600 decide if anything there was worth keeping, and we decided 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.000 we really liked five songs. The recordings were secondary. We 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.080 just knew those five songs fit in with the storyline, 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.040 and um, so we we set about finishing the other 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.200 half of the album and No Small Thing was the 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.920 first thing to come. And then it became kind of easy. Um, 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.279 you know, it was it was us realizing that we 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.360 really are an album band and not a single band. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.960 We've never gone in search of a hit single, never 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.560 have done in our careers. We've you know, the singles 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.600 we've released have only ever been singles taken from an 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.839 album we have finished. So um, we went, you know, 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.839 we we went at it with the viewpoint of finishing 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:48.040 something we considered to be a good album. You mentioned 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.279 those small thing It's such an incredible way to open 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.240 the record. It opens with a sound that I don't 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.960 traditionally associate with you, that kind of Southwestern acoustic guitar, 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.039 almost like a Malty Robins song. I got kind of 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.560 like al Paso vibes or something like that. It's it 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:03.960 really sounds like that was such a great breakthrough for 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.359 you when you reconnected as songwriters again. What what was 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.280 that experience like for you? Slipping back into those those 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.719 roles together kind of nose and those with guitars. What 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.839 was that experience like for you? Was it easy to 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.159 get back to that place? Yeah, I mean it was easy. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.400 I think, you know it was the comfort level was fine, 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.520 and sitting down with two acoustics. We hadn't done that 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:31.159 since the hurting, and so it was us literally going 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.400 back to our roots. UM and I think you know, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.000 Roland especially felt something was going to come from that 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.600 and and it did, you know, Um and Roland went 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.080 away and started working on that song. He it was 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.680 during just after that the writing session lockdown happened. So 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.680 Roland went back to England. Um, and and then he 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.719 couldn't get back to America. So then we started just 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:59.200 sending things back and forth to each other via email, 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:05.520 and Roland basically finished a lot of the song when 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.760 he was back in England, the sort of writing aspect 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:13.680 of what we had started. And he eventually got back 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.159 to America when they let him back in the country 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.960 at the end of August, and we went back into 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.000 the studio in September. We were done by Christmas. So 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.599 when you know what, when you know what you're doing, 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.880 process becomes easier, and I think left to our own devices, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.120 and when we're both on the same page and we 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.880 both know what we want and that happens to be 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.360 the same thing, um, it becomes an easy process. It's 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.640 when we're fighting and looking for something that the process 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.680 is harder, when we don't quite know where we're going. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.560 I can't think of a better opener to me, especially 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.719 with the line I've just got one more song to sing, 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.120 one more story to tell. It's hard not to take 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:59.679 that as autobiographical, knowing knowing your your background and your history. Yeah, 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.120 and I think so taking a way back to your 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.720 your previous album two thousand four is everybody loves a 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.160 happy ending. Did you have any notion that you were 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.640 going to carry on making records together or was that, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.040 like the title, kind of meant to be a nice 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.320 way to to wrap things up? When did you when 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.120 I guess, did this process of wanting to make a 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.320 new record start for you? Well? Yeah, I mean, as 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.520 you said, with a happy ending, Um, it was. It 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.000 seemed like a good way to finish, literally a happy 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.920 ending of Kurt and I getting back together after a 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.800 nine year hiatus. Um. And it was a fun record 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:42.920 to make. It was. I relocated my family to Los Angeles. 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:45.960 All of a sudden, we were waking up to a 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.920 blue sky doing the school run under this with in 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.080 this beautiful weather, drop the kids off down onto the 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.880 tennis court, back into the shower, then down to the 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.280 recording studio to to do. Work on this album was fun. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.120 We had a lot of fun working with chant Pettus, 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.240 who is a great communicator between the two of us, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:13.080 a great modulator. Um. Yeah, we were very happy with 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.960 the record. Um it was very different to anything I've 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.120 done in the previous decade. But yeah, I mean we 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.160 didn't we we went act to promote it. We had 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.360 quite a bit coverage, good radio play in Britain, we 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:30.720 did some popular TV shows in the States. But we 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.760 looked at the record sales the next day and we 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.760 found that people were thinking, you know, people were like, oh, well, 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.360 it's Tears for Fears. We love Tears for Fears. Let's 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.720 go to the record store. So they would go to 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.320 the record store and then they buy a copy of 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.440 the Greatest Hits record. So you're you're not you're not 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:51.120 really shifting new product um. Following that, no, there was 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.280 no plan to make another record. I sort of came 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.320 back to England. The project cycle had finished and over 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.480 the years, over about ye must have been about more 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.800 than a decade, we just got better and better and better, 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.640 and we started to get this great reputation playing live. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.280 And I mean, what is your process like for for 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.400 writing these songs. Is it more of a case of 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.840 almost like no small thing where you're starting with acoustic 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.960 instruments and working out chord sequences and melodic parts, or 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.400 do you actually start with um, getting a bunch of 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.840 scynth lines together and kind of working on almost like 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.520 a sonic bed and use that as the bedrock for 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.840 the track and build it up brick by brick how 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.679 or is it a combination of both. It's a combination 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:41.560 of both. Of course. Around seven years on this album, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:48.120 we we've tried pretty much every meth writing available. We 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:53.440 worked on about in the excess of thirty songs, so 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:58.120 right at the end, um we could cheery pick. But 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.960 it was you know, we say cometh the hour come 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:09.040 of the songs because it was only in twenty twenty 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.400 that we we stumbled across the heart and soul and 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.920 guts of the record. Everything that came before it was 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.800 just leading up to that moment and listening back to 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.760 the songs we chose when we've sequenced them, it was 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:38.120 just an incredible experience. I mean, that's something I love 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.480 about your records is that they do stand together as 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.320 a whole and tell a story which I feel like 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.080 it's a lost art. I mean that's a degree of 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.120 care and a skill that I think that we've we've 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:52.880 lost in recent years. Uh. In your words, what is 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.400 the story of the tipping point? Is there a way 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:57.520 to that? You know that that that you sum it 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.559 up amongst yourselves, Well, I mean, so much had gone 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.320 on in the world, um, and then you know our 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.760 personal lives over the previous bunch of years. You know, 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:14.040 obviously our specifically site Roland's wife passing away during that time. 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.800 Obviously that was a big bit, had a big effect 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.679 on us, Roland in particular, and UM, So obviously there 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.600 are songs there about that. UM. But also on top 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.640 of that, you know, we've gone through political upheaval worldwide, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.360 the rise of the right wing worldwide, four years of 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.040 Donald Trump in America, the Me Too movement, the Black 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.440 Lives Matter movement, the climate climate crisis, the start of 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.000 the pandemic, So there was a lot of subject matter. UM, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.440 and now they're certainly we weren't, you know, stuck for 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.679 things to write about. And I think all of that 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.000 is included in parts on the album, some more obvious 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:55.200 than others. But but I feel the overall sense of 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.200 the album is one of of of of hope, you know, 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.560 that there's life at the end of the tunnel. UM. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.680 We didn't want it. Our intention was not to make 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.760 this sort of modeling record that was kind of depressing. UM. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.360 You know, I think that especially tracks like Rivers of 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:17.840 Mercy on the album, UM, which really does sort of 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.640 talk about redemption more than anything else. You know um 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.760 and I think that the redemption and hope probably a 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.960 two themes going through the album that that you know, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.360 our answers to all those other things that we talk about, 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:38.240 you know, without getting into too much depth on every track, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:44.240 I definitely feel positive by the time I finished it. Oh. 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.480 I second, I mean, Rivers of Mercy is an amazing track, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.320 as I feel like it does such an amazing job 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.240 of juxtaposing the the upheaval in the streets at the 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.640 same time when we were kind of in an enforced 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.720 imprisonment for lack of a better word, in our homes 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:01.920 do to the pandemic, and I feel like that that 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.839 strange kind of push pull that's going on internally and globally, 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.880 really you feel that in that track, and especially coming 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.280 right after the track My Demons, which is I love 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.960 the interplay between those two songs. Me My Demons is 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.760 just such a monster of a song sonically and lyrically, 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.439 I mean, My Demons don't get out much what a 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.319 what a line, and then following with the comparative gentle 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.560 sonic scope of Rivers of Mercy. I love the interplay 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.800 between those two songs. In particular for me, that was 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.320 really such a key moment in the album that that bend. Yeah, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.640 I think that's um, imprisonment is a good word. Yeah, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.440 that's I think that's kind of what was happening. Yeah, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.439 it was. It was very strange. Um, that's for rivers 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:50.679 of Moosey. We ended up writing songs of the band 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:56.480 instead of writing songs with all these strangers and people 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.200 play as he has been with us for you know, 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.240 for a long time, and Sharton Pettus presented us with 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:09.120 this backing track which was so calm, beautiful and serene 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:16.360 and had a sense of longing within it, and as 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:24.000 it was so beautiful to put a liraing melody too. Yes, 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:28.280 this was the time of Lockdown number one in Britain 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.840 and it coincided with the most incredible Mediterranean weather here. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:38.320 So here I am in the West Country. Plenty big enough, 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.960 plenty enough space, you know, three acres, tennis court, recording studio, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.200 all kinds of things, not much of a prison, or 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.200 a rather an elegant prison, shall we say. And feeling 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.720 this well, you know, this forced imprisonment, as you say, 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.120 that felt like freedom at the same time. And you 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.560 went out to the supermarket and there are security guards 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.520 but and then it was it was a very calm 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:10.800 and peaceful time. But when you turn if you put 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.200 on your computer, you turned on the news, you're looking 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:18.640 at all this rage contrast between the peace you can 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:25.240 feel inside and the information you're gleaning literally from thousands 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:31.200 and thousands of miles away. That is the zeitgeist. It's 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:35.560 not reflecting your inner state. So that's what that song's about. 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.640 And you're right, we come out of my demons. They 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:42.040 don't get out that much, especially especially lockdown um. But 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.800 it's just this. We start with the sounds of the 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:50.200 of the riots and sirens, and then we we sink 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:56.080 into this incredible feeling. It's almost like you are letting 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.960 yourself go, and you're letting yourself fall back into the ocean, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.840 into the supportive waters, into the waters of redemption. And 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:09.640 it's almost suggesting that really the only way acts of 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:15.360 rage violence, some of it of course is understandably justified, 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.080 but the way forward is to find a place and 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.520 this might sound a bit hippie dippy, a finer place 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.720 of food gifts, because that's literally the only way you 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.760 are going to cleanse yourself. I think that's well said. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:35.880 I mean, there's there's It's been commented on throughout your work, 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.360 throughout your history, but on this particular album, in particularly 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:42.240 the appearance of of of ghosts and specters that you know, 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.080 we we we sort of try to keep it bare. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.160 I mean, it's there on the tipping point and in 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.400 a sense on my demons as well. Is making music 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:54.480 a kind of exorcism for you? I think it's a 0:16:54.480 --> 0:17:06.359 way of acknowledging those ghosts, um acknowledging how important people 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.520 who are no longer here are. For instance, the title track, 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.479 it's a love song, but it's a love song for 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:19.080 someone you've lost, and that love it never goes. It's 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.919 locked in with your memory of them, and that in 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.520 itself is a beautiful thing, but yeah, it goes. It's 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.160 a symbol we use, we have used all a lot 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:35.119 in the past. I mean, thank you for sharing that 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.160 with me right now. And on on the songs. I mean, 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.720 there are so many moments on this album, I mean 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.880 the title track and please be happy among them that 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.080 that do come from from this this very personal tragedy 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.200 and and trauma and darkness, and and for that, I mean, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.280 as a person, I apologize, and I'm sending you my 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.679 Best Wishes? Was there a concern about putting these moments 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:58.720 on the album, knowing that you would have to revisit 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.359 them on stage and you know, doing press for this 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.919 or what there had almost seemed almost disingenuous as artists 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:06.720 to think, well, it's silly that this is what I'm 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.040 dealing with right now, to pretend it's not happening. I 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:14.000 write about something else is not who I am. How 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.040 did you kind of strike that balance? Was it? Was 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:17.800 it a concern for you to put these out there? 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.159 I mean, I don't think it's ever a concern. You know. 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.920 Our concern initially really was that it didn't have the depth, 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.720 but it didn't have the meaning, and it didn't have 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.480 talk about subjects that were dear to us. You know. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.600 I think that the best use of music for us 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.160 normally is to put these feelings into some sense of order, 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.679 you know. And you know I've said before that you 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.400 know a lot of the time when you're in these 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.720 moments of crisis or trying to work out what is 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.760 going on in the world or things externally, um, your 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.800 mind tends to go on this eternal kind of loop 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.199 of doom, you know. And the way we tend to 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.040 work it out, is to put it into so on 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:05.199 and somehow compartmentalize it, makes sense of it. And you know, 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.639 a lot of the songs, I would say most of 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.840 the songs in this album are an attempt by us 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.520 to make some sense out of things that are going on. 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.920 So in that sense, it's quite cathartic and and therapeutic 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.199 for us, Um And consequently you end up with an 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.680 album that has far more depth and far more meaning 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.440 to you personally, and I think to an audience, because 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.239 I'm sure a lot of people who listen to our 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.159 music are going through the same things and have the 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.040 same emotions. And you know, especially with you know, the 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.119 loss of someone in the sense of as you mentioned, 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.440 tipping point and please be happy the loss of Caroline Um. 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.960 You know, you're looking at the TV and you see 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.200 images and hospitals, you know, during the pandemic where people 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.399 all across the world are losing people. So in that sense, 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.440 it becomes more of a global thing than a person. 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.520 It's it's interesting to view this record against your your 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.040 first the hurting. I see them as as linked in 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.800 a certain way, almost as uh, you know, inverses or 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.040 mirrored image images of each other or something like that. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.560 At least I see them certain similarities there. There are 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.240 definitely similarities. I think the difference is that the hurting 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.320 was you know, they're both a little angst written, but 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.879 on this album, I think we're making sense of what's 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.159 going on, whereas I'm there, I think we're more railing 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.360 against what is going on. We're angry at what's going on. 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.200 And this one comes from a or at least leaves 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.240 you with a far calmer feeling and a sense that 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.360 you know will work it out at some point. It's 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.480 just interesting for me to think of how you started 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.080 out pre Tears for Fears in the group you were in, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.400 and then even as teens playing you know, Bloister Call 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.359 and led Zeppelin and original songs that were done in 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.800 that similar style. Was there a lightbulb moment for you 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.680 in terms of realizing that you could that would lead 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.200 you towards new kinds of songs that you could write 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.439 that would help you, uh process emotions, I guess in 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:15.320 a way and use music almost like as a as 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.720 a tool as opposed to you know, kind of these 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:21.440 more I don't want to say, you know, rock centric, 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.880 but you know something with maybe a little more depth 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.159 was there, whether people were there, either other artists or 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.360 people like Arthur Yanoff that, Um, it's kind of lead 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.120 you into realizing that music could have this whole other 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:38.840 layer inside the electronic music. So all of a sudden, 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:45.960 the two became a viable proposition because of the gene, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:51.760 because of the tape machine, and we quickly adopted this 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.360 style and found we were very good at it. And 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:00.240 what was great is we could we could completely as 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:06.800 your ring and express the emotions of for the first time, 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:12.480 which we weren't really doing any before that writing personal songs. Um, 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:14.960 you know about what was going on inside us. But 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:19.400 it was the combination of that with these crazy electronic 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:25.280 arrangements that made the whole thing something something very special. 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:30.520 And it was our emotional honesty of early tears for 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.080 Fears that kind of separated us from a lot of 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:40.080 the what we would call utopian synthesizer groups like Human League. 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.640 Um synthesizer groups could who would only play a keyboard 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.440 with one finger. It was a kind of little bit 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:50.640 punk we were. We were actually guitarists, and so we 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:52.520 were kind of approaching It would also be in the 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.480 orchestra at school, had been in the choir, and we 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.680 were approaching the arrangements in a completely different way. Yeah, man, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.080 I think also that combined with you know, at the 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.399 time when we left graduate obviously you know, we we 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.800 had decided that we wanted, you know, songs to have 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:11.480 more meaning, We wanted to talk about personal emotions, personal trauma. 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.680 But also we around that time there were albums by 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.760 Peter Gabral's Third of one I would side, um Talking 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.800 Heads remain in like David Bowie Scary Monsters, that really 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.000 took production to a different level. So not only were 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:32.240 we deciding to write songs that had more far more 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:37.040 meaning and more and more personal meaning lyrically, but we 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:40.320 were getting into recording. The band we were with before 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:42.359 really had no interest in recording. I mean they we 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.359 were literally when in the studio and played live and 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:46.879 recorded it and that was that. Um, you might as 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:48.560 well just stuck a mic up in the middle of 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.600 the room of the room. But we actually became interested 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.560 in production and how these albums sounded so big, How 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:58.400 was that possible? Um, So we actually got far more 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:02.199 interested in studio work, which the other people in the 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:04.119 band that we were in at the time, had no 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:08.560 interesting studio work. I'm curious about your your home setups now, 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.280 I mean rolling in particular. I had fantasies of you 0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:14.560