1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When we're feeling stuck or unhappy with the way 2 00:00:26,236 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 1: our lives are unfolding, we often fixate on certain kinds 3 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:33,076 Speaker 1: of self improvement, things like getting into shape, making more money, 4 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:36,396 Speaker 1: eating healthier, or landing a promotion at work. Goals like 5 00:00:36,436 --> 00:00:38,476 Speaker 1: these are super common at the start of the new year. 6 00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:40,956 Speaker 1: But what we don't tend to hear about our goals 7 00:00:40,996 --> 00:00:43,716 Speaker 1: that are less self focused, trying to become a better 8 00:00:43,756 --> 00:00:47,756 Speaker 1: friend or committing to supporting our surrounding communities. Could goals 9 00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:50,556 Speaker 1: like these be a more effective path to becoming unstuck 10 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:54,156 Speaker 1: in the new year. Could intentionally building our character be 11 00:00:54,236 --> 00:00:57,556 Speaker 1: a more happiness inducing strategy than we think? These are 12 00:00:57,596 --> 00:01:00,276 Speaker 1: the questions that we'll be tackling with today's guest. 13 00:01:00,316 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 2: Mining David Brooks. I am a columnist at The New 14 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 2: York Times and a former fellow at the Jackson Institute 15 00:01:06,396 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 2: at Yale University. 16 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:09,836 Speaker 1: David is also the author of self books on the 17 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:13,476 Speaker 1: importance of character development, huge bestsellers like The Road to 18 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:16,596 Speaker 1: Character and his most recent work, How to Know a Person. 19 00:01:17,236 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: David's interest in character development began as a personal self 20 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:21,316 Speaker 1: help project. 21 00:01:21,636 --> 00:01:25,116 Speaker 2: I'm not a naturally deep person, and so I think 22 00:01:25,156 --> 00:01:28,156 Speaker 2: I've read all these damn books, and I go to 23 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 2: religious services, and I do all this stuff to try 24 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 2: to make myself a little deeper than I was yesterday. 25 00:01:34,116 --> 00:01:36,596 Speaker 1: And one of his early realizations was that he and 26 00:01:36,636 --> 00:01:38,956 Speaker 1: so many others were focused on the wrong kinds of 27 00:01:38,956 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: goals when it came to living the good life. So 28 00:01:41,876 --> 00:01:43,516 Speaker 1: way back in the road to character, I know you 29 00:01:43,556 --> 00:01:47,236 Speaker 1: made this distinction between resume and eulogy virtues, which lots 30 00:01:47,236 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 1: of folks know. But for listeners who don't know that framework, 31 00:01:49,596 --> 00:01:52,396 Speaker 1: can you explain what you mean and what the difference 32 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 1: is between these two sets of verdues. 33 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, dualisms turn out to be really powerful. If you 34 00:01:56,556 --> 00:01:59,356 Speaker 2: put one in the book, people remember it forever. So 35 00:01:59,836 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 2: the decision I made was between the resume virtues, which 36 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 2: are the things that make you good to your job, 37 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:08,156 Speaker 2: whether you're capable of being a great lawyer, accountant, teacher, 38 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 2: whatever it is, and the eulogy virtues are the things 39 00:02:10,916 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 2: they say about you after you're dead, whether you're honest, honorable, courageous, 40 00:02:14,756 --> 00:02:17,716 Speaker 2: capable of great love. And we all know the eulogy 41 00:02:17,796 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 2: virtues are more important. And yet our schools, often our 42 00:02:20,676 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 2: families emphasize the resume virtues. And somebody did this study 43 00:02:24,876 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 2: years ago where they asked junior high school students, do 44 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 2: your parents care more about whether you do your homework 45 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:33,956 Speaker 2: or whether you are kind? And in the eighty percent, 46 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 2: the students said they care more about homework than being kind. 47 00:02:36,916 --> 00:02:39,836 Speaker 2: So parents pressure their students into being good little resume 48 00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:43,196 Speaker 2: achieve atrons, and they have tremendous for your failure as 49 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:43,836 Speaker 2: a result of that. 50 00:02:44,276 --> 00:02:45,636 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that makes it so 51 00:02:45,716 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 1: hard is that these resume virtues come with metrics, right, 52 00:02:48,396 --> 00:02:50,716 Speaker 1: we can measure them really easily, and I think that, 53 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:53,036 Speaker 1: especially in modern culture, when we have so many tools 54 00:02:53,036 --> 00:02:55,796 Speaker 1: for measurement, we've become really susceptible to kind of doing 55 00:02:55,876 --> 00:02:58,316 Speaker 1: better on those because it's like, well, I know what 56 00:02:58,356 --> 00:03:00,236 Speaker 1: it looks like when I increase my time when I'm 57 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 1: training for a marathon, or I know what it looks 58 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 1: like when my salary goes up. I might not know 59 00:03:03,756 --> 00:03:06,236 Speaker 1: what it looks like to increase my potential for being 60 00:03:06,236 --> 00:03:06,836 Speaker 1: a good person. 61 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:08,796 Speaker 2: In the same way, my view is, anytime you find 62 00:03:08,796 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 2: yourself quantifying a human being, you should stop and watch 63 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:15,876 Speaker 2: what you're doing, because some things are quantifiable. And if 64 00:03:15,916 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 2: I want to know how strong you are, can figure 65 00:03:17,476 --> 00:03:19,636 Speaker 2: out how much you can lift. But the things that 66 00:03:19,676 --> 00:03:22,716 Speaker 2: really matter in life are the things like your determination, 67 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 2: your social skills, your curiosity, your ability to be resilient 68 00:03:28,276 --> 00:03:30,636 Speaker 2: in the face of failure, your ability to be kind, 69 00:03:30,956 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 2: your ability to cast the just and loving attention on 70 00:03:33,396 --> 00:03:36,316 Speaker 2: other human beings. One study I saw, I've found when 71 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 2: people are fired, in eighty nine percent of cases, they 72 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 2: were fired because they were jerks. Basically, they were not coachable, 73 00:03:43,156 --> 00:03:45,676 Speaker 2: they were not good teammates, they didn't want to learn. 74 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:49,356 Speaker 2: They're not fired because they lack intelligence. They're not fired 75 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 2: because they lack technical skills. And so it's those what 76 00:03:52,676 --> 00:03:56,876 Speaker 2: is stupidly called either soft skills or even worse, non 77 00:03:56,916 --> 00:04:00,036 Speaker 2: cognitive skills, that are actually the hard and most important 78 00:04:00,076 --> 00:04:02,516 Speaker 2: things of life. And there's just no such thing as 79 00:04:02,516 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 2: a non cognitive skill. Everything we do is cognitive. And 80 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:09,116 Speaker 2: so the very idea that we define the most important 81 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,916 Speaker 2: things in opposition to the least important things which we prioritize, 82 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 2: is a symptom that our society has really lost track 83 00:04:15,556 --> 00:04:16,876 Speaker 2: of what matters in a human being. 84 00:04:17,556 --> 00:04:20,236 Speaker 1: So this time of year, people are looking for big changes. 85 00:04:20,316 --> 00:04:22,436 Speaker 1: It's like new me, Right, you know you're going to 86 00:04:22,476 --> 00:04:25,716 Speaker 1: revamp your whole self, and that might work maybe with 87 00:04:25,756 --> 00:04:27,556 Speaker 1: some of the achievement virtues, wealth I think there's an 88 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:30,156 Speaker 1: open question about that. I think it doesn't work so 89 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: much with the eulogy virtues because one of the things 90 00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:35,676 Speaker 1: you so nicely pointed out is that character development isn't 91 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:39,876 Speaker 1: this huge, massive transformation. You're asking people to think about 92 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 1: something much quieter, these kind of tiny, little practice changes. 93 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:45,436 Speaker 1: So talk to me about this idea that character is 94 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 1: an everyday practice. What do you mean by that? 95 00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 2: In all our jobs, there's a materialistic drag, a corrosion. 96 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:56,476 Speaker 2: For doctors who I've spoken to, the drag is the 97 00:04:56,556 --> 00:05:00,196 Speaker 2: lure of money and the need to make everything efficient 98 00:05:00,476 --> 00:05:04,236 Speaker 2: and have a patient every sixteen minutes or less. And 99 00:05:04,276 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 2: in journalism the drag is I want to tell the 100 00:05:07,596 --> 00:05:10,316 Speaker 2: truth as I see it. I also want to generate clicks, 101 00:05:11,196 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 2: and so that's the seduction. And so to push back 102 00:05:13,996 --> 00:05:17,036 Speaker 2: against that seduction and try to stay within the moral lens. 103 00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:20,116 Speaker 2: Is I find a daily challenge. And that's not a 104 00:05:20,196 --> 00:05:22,996 Speaker 2: challenge you solve with some miracle growth. 105 00:05:23,316 --> 00:05:26,316 Speaker 1: It's a challenge you solve with tiny changes of actions. 106 00:05:26,596 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 2: Well, I mean characters forged the way we learned crafts 107 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:33,956 Speaker 2: by small habits. And you know, I do dumb things. 108 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,796 Speaker 2: I always have some spiritual book going on, reading a 109 00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 2: book by Thomas Merton on contemplation. That's how I try 110 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:42,316 Speaker 2: to aspire. One of the things you can do to 111 00:05:42,356 --> 00:05:45,396 Speaker 2: become a better person is to just read books of 112 00:05:45,396 --> 00:05:49,116 Speaker 2: people you admire and unconsciously be a little more like them. 113 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:52,116 Speaker 2: I read a crazy biography last week called A Woman 114 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:56,276 Speaker 2: of No Importance, about an American woman who basically joined 115 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 2: and organized the French Resistance during World War Two. And 116 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:02,996 Speaker 2: she did crazy stuff of organizing hundreds of French resistance 117 00:06:03,036 --> 00:06:06,356 Speaker 2: fighters under constant threat of death. And now I'm not 118 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:09,836 Speaker 2: going to do that. I don't have that, but you 119 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:12,036 Speaker 2: can't help having some of that rub off on you. 120 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 2: And you think, you know, when I'm searching for meaning 121 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 2: in my life, who are the exemplars that I care 122 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:19,396 Speaker 2: about right now? In times of my life? I literally 123 00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:21,556 Speaker 2: have taken the postcards and portraits of the people I 124 00:06:21,596 --> 00:06:25,036 Speaker 2: admire and stuck them on the wall. I'm a big admirer. 125 00:06:25,036 --> 00:06:27,596 Speaker 2: A guy named Samuel Johnson an essays to really wrote 126 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 2: himself into being a beautiful human being, and I see 127 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:34,276 Speaker 2: Sam Johnson's face over there. Maybe I won't to shoot 128 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 2: out my taxes today. We want to surround ourselves with 129 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:39,876 Speaker 2: the eyes of the dead and the eyes of the admired. 130 00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 2: It'll lift our spirits. 131 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that we often get 132 00:06:44,356 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 1: stuck on, which can prevent our moral development, is seeking 133 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:51,596 Speaker 1: out comfort. We are a modern society that avoids discomfort. 134 00:06:52,076 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about how that can 135 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:56,396 Speaker 1: keep us stuck and can prevent our moral development in 136 00:06:56,476 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: ways that we might not realize. 137 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:02,476 Speaker 2: Yeah. I read a book recently called What I talk 138 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:05,356 Speaker 2: about When I talk about Running, by a Japanese novelist 139 00:07:05,396 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 2: Namara Kami. He ran a jazz club for a little 140 00:07:08,876 --> 00:07:12,996 Speaker 2: while and he decided one day, while watching a baseball game, 141 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 2: I think I'm going to write a novel. And so 142 00:07:15,316 --> 00:07:18,756 Speaker 2: he quit his jazz club. And as he started writing, 143 00:07:18,796 --> 00:07:20,916 Speaker 2: he started getting heavier because he had no exercise or 144 00:07:20,996 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 2: he wasn't hauling around kekes of beer anymore, and so 145 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:25,716 Speaker 2: he said, I'll take up running. And he's a pretty 146 00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 2: committed guy. So he started running six miles a day, 147 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:31,276 Speaker 2: and he ran marathons every year. And when you read 148 00:07:31,356 --> 00:07:34,276 Speaker 2: his book, The Thing that Leaps out at you is 149 00:07:34,356 --> 00:07:37,476 Speaker 2: he hates running and then pasted it, just like I 150 00:07:37,516 --> 00:07:39,956 Speaker 2: was on the twenty third mile. I hated running. I 151 00:07:40,076 --> 00:07:41,876 Speaker 2: finished the marathon. All I wanted to do was stop 152 00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:44,916 Speaker 2: running and never run again. It's just one sentence after 153 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 2: another of how much he hates running. So why does 154 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:52,196 Speaker 2: he do something he hates. Well, he did it because 155 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:55,676 Speaker 2: he thought it's about embracing challenge. I think, in part 156 00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 2: because he thought it made him a better person, in 157 00:07:58,516 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 2: part because he thought it made him a better writer. 158 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 2: And I think perversely he got deep fulfillment out of running. 159 00:08:05,396 --> 00:08:07,316 Speaker 2: And I can relate, not because I can run six 160 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 2: miles today. But I'm here in my office and every day, 161 00:08:12,356 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 2: seven days a week, I come into this office and 162 00:08:16,236 --> 00:08:18,676 Speaker 2: I write my twelve hundred words. And I've been doing 163 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 2: it for forty years. And I do not like writing. 164 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:27,076 Speaker 2: It's not easy. It hasn't gotten any easier with the experience. 165 00:08:27,596 --> 00:08:29,956 Speaker 2: Even just organizing the structure of a piece or a book. 166 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:34,076 Speaker 2: It's just really hard. So I don't like to write, 167 00:08:34,116 --> 00:08:36,196 Speaker 2: but I want to write. And I've learned that we 168 00:08:36,276 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 2: have two different systems in our brain. There's a liking 169 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:42,116 Speaker 2: system and a wanting system. And I have found in 170 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:45,436 Speaker 2: my life that if I pay attention to the wanting system, 171 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:49,076 Speaker 2: that's more reliable than the liking system because it leads 172 00:08:49,116 --> 00:08:52,676 Speaker 2: to the hard and sometimes challenging things that make you 173 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: feel fulfilled. And I guess the one thing I would 174 00:08:56,196 --> 00:09:00,516 Speaker 2: ask people to ask themselves is, deep down, at the 175 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 2: core of yourself, what do you really want? I had 176 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 2: a professor at Umer of Chicago where I was an undergrad, 177 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 2: named Leon Kas who's still with us, and he said, 178 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:12,916 Speaker 2: what defines people is not their opinions, It's not their success, 179 00:09:13,596 --> 00:09:16,716 Speaker 2: It's the ruling passion of their souls. Some people are 180 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 2: lovers of pleasure, some people are lovers of understanding, some 181 00:09:20,036 --> 00:09:23,476 Speaker 2: people are lovers of justice. And so I often ask 182 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:25,756 Speaker 2: people what is the ruling passion of your soul? And 183 00:09:25,796 --> 00:09:28,036 Speaker 2: you want to answer, I get back a blank look. 184 00:09:28,076 --> 00:09:30,636 Speaker 2: They have no idea. People have to ask themselves this question. 185 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:36,236 Speaker 2: But understanding your own desires is really important. I teach 186 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:38,676 Speaker 2: a class now in Chicago for people who are retiring, 187 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 2: and one of the things that I've noticed they do 188 00:09:42,036 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 2: so they are sixty five, they're retiring, they're beginning the 189 00:09:44,116 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 2: next third of their life. One thing it helps them 190 00:09:46,636 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 2: to ask is what did I leave behind in childhood? 191 00:09:50,356 --> 00:09:52,756 Speaker 2: What gift do I have that I currently hold in exile? 192 00:09:53,476 --> 00:09:55,436 Speaker 2: And if they can go back and find that little 193 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:58,516 Speaker 2: kid they used to be and what horizon that kid 194 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 2: was chasing toward, then they can touch something pretty deep 195 00:10:01,596 --> 00:10:04,596 Speaker 2: in themselves and they can retap into a desire that 196 00:10:04,716 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 2: is the endorment in their lives. Markami was seized by 197 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:11,516 Speaker 2: the desire to write and the desire to run. And 198 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:14,356 Speaker 2: it's a great skill, the capacity to be seized. Some 199 00:10:14,396 --> 00:10:17,236 Speaker 2: people are seized by God, some people are seized by 200 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:20,956 Speaker 2: a hero. Some people are seized by poetry. And when 201 00:10:20,996 --> 00:10:24,316 Speaker 2: you're seized, it's almost like you don't have a choice. 202 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:26,236 Speaker 2: You're in the double negative. I can't not do this. 203 00:10:27,636 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 2: And I think the willingness to be seized, to be 204 00:10:30,876 --> 00:10:34,276 Speaker 2: open to being seized, is just a tremendous and underrated 205 00:10:34,316 --> 00:10:37,756 Speaker 2: skill which we almost beat out of young people at school. 206 00:10:38,356 --> 00:10:41,276 Speaker 2: We prescribe so much of what they must do. You 207 00:10:41,316 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 2: should go through life as if you're just wandering through 208 00:10:44,996 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 2: a bookstore, just willing to be captured by whatever interests you. 209 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 2: You never know what can lead to what. 210 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:54,156 Speaker 1: I absolutely adore this idea of being seized. It really 211 00:10:54,196 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 1: plays on what psychologists call this notion of moral elevation 212 00:10:57,116 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 1: when you see something that challenges you or gets you 213 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:01,796 Speaker 1: wanting to think about it in a new way. But 214 00:11:01,836 --> 00:11:03,876 Speaker 1: I think to do that we have to have a 215 00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:06,596 Speaker 1: particular moral virtue that we don't often have, which is 216 00:11:06,636 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 1: that we have to have some humility. You have to 217 00:11:08,996 --> 00:11:10,716 Speaker 1: know go in with a plan that you know is 218 00:11:10,796 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: your plan and you're stuck to it. You actually have 219 00:11:12,956 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 1: to be open. And humility seems to be the kind 220 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 1: of thing that we're losing. It seems like we're in 221 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:20,996 Speaker 1: a modern culture that celebrates self promotion and acting like 222 00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: you know what you're doing, even if you don't know 223 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:25,156 Speaker 1: what you're doing. Any tips for generating a little bit 224 00:11:25,156 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 1: more humility, especially in the face of a culture that 225 00:11:27,516 --> 00:11:29,076 Speaker 1: really doesn't like that virtue. 226 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:30,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, go to work at the New York Times. 227 00:11:30,716 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 1: It'll too read the comments section. 228 00:11:34,436 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 2: I wanted to write a book. I was going to 229 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 2: have the title of Humility in small Letters and then 230 00:11:38,516 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 2: by David Brooks and really big Lis my Humility book. 231 00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:46,036 Speaker 2: There's a nice distinction to be made between wilfulness and willingness, 232 00:11:46,636 --> 00:11:50,036 Speaker 2: and wilfulness is when you take control and willingness is 233 00:11:50,036 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 2: when you're willing to be led. And the artists, I know, 234 00:11:53,196 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 2: the painters, the musicians, they have a great capacity for willingness. 235 00:11:57,556 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 2: They're willing to go wherever the muse leads them. And 236 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 2: if you're going to a concert or seeing one of 237 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:04,596 Speaker 2: their shows, and you're going to take advantage of what 238 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 2: they've given and produced, then you have to be willing 239 00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:10,276 Speaker 2: to go where they're taken. You just have to be willing. CS. 240 00:12:10,356 --> 00:12:14,076 Speaker 2: Lewis define humility is not thinking lowly of yourself, but 241 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 2: really not thinking of yourself. I define it a little differently. 242 00:12:19,076 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 2: I define humility as radical self awareness from a position 243 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:27,956 Speaker 2: of other centeredness. It's the ability to get outside yourself 244 00:12:27,956 --> 00:12:31,236 Speaker 2: and see yourself accurately and honestly. And when you have 245 00:12:31,316 --> 00:12:34,036 Speaker 2: that level of self awareness, you have stability in your life. 246 00:12:34,236 --> 00:12:37,716 Speaker 2: You're not always searching to impress. And there's debates I've 247 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:40,116 Speaker 2: had with friends over what's the most important virtue to 248 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:42,516 Speaker 2: add And I have a lot of friends who think 249 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 2: courage is the most important virtue, but I think humility 250 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:47,436 Speaker 2: is the most important virtue. 251 00:12:47,716 --> 00:12:50,676 Speaker 1: And true humility, David says, starts with how we think 252 00:12:50,676 --> 00:12:53,876 Speaker 1: about ourselves. We need to switch from a self focus 253 00:12:53,996 --> 00:12:56,956 Speaker 1: to one that's turned towards others. But how can we 254 00:12:56,996 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: do that better? After the break, David will share some 255 00:13:00,156 --> 00:13:03,756 Speaker 1: strategies for turning our mindsets outward. We'll see why service 256 00:13:03,796 --> 00:13:06,516 Speaker 1: and connection are an effective path for developing a deeper 257 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 1: sense of meaning and getting psychologically on this stuck The 258 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:18,396 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab will be back in a moment. Author and 259 00:13:18,436 --> 00:13:21,396 Speaker 1: cultural commentator David Brooks has argued that we can get 260 00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:24,556 Speaker 1: unstuck in twenty twenty six not by chasing more achievement, 261 00:13:24,836 --> 00:13:28,156 Speaker 1: but by developing our character. And one of the practical 262 00:13:28,156 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 1: ways to do that, David says, is through acts of service, 263 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:33,156 Speaker 1: especially at the local level. 264 00:13:33,836 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 2: First, look around the neighborhood and motroun Every neighborhood has 265 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 2: its own unique problems. I have a conversation about what's 266 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 2: the problem here, what's ailing us? And then what do 267 00:13:43,916 --> 00:13:46,996 Speaker 2: I bring to the table, What skill do I have 268 00:13:47,836 --> 00:13:50,556 Speaker 2: that really will enable me to help? And I have 269 00:13:50,596 --> 00:13:53,756 Speaker 2: a little nonprofit called Weave the Social Fabric Projects, and 270 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,436 Speaker 2: we help people who live in the neighborhood where they work, 271 00:13:56,436 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 2: and they are the ones who are holding their neighborhoods together. 272 00:13:59,756 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 2: Some of them are in organizations. Some of them are 273 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 2: just One lady said, I practice aggressive friendship. She's the 274 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:09,836 Speaker 2: lady on the block who posts everything no again, helps 275 00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:13,156 Speaker 2: kids in the West Side Chicago stay at a gangs. 276 00:14:13,676 --> 00:14:16,076 Speaker 2: They just want to serve the community. We ran to 277 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:19,316 Speaker 2: a lady in Florida and she was helping kids cross 278 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:22,676 Speaker 2: the street after elementary school and we said, are you 279 00:14:22,716 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 2: getting paid to do this? And she said no, but 280 00:14:26,036 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 2: it was safer for the kids if an adult can 281 00:14:27,876 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 2: help them walk across the street. And this wasn't voluntarying. 282 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 2: This is what neighbors do. And I think she was 283 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:35,476 Speaker 2: tremendously fulfilled. 284 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:37,996 Speaker 1: I know, when you see these moments of interdependence of 285 00:14:37,996 --> 00:14:40,356 Speaker 1: people that are doing stuff for their community, you've called 286 00:14:40,396 --> 00:14:42,636 Speaker 1: these folks weavers. What do you mean by this term weaver? 287 00:14:43,556 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 2: When we start weave, we had a theory that if 288 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:50,356 Speaker 2: you're going to do social change, creating a new identity 289 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 2: really matters. For example, in nineteen fifty five, nobody called 290 00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 2: themselves a feminist. By nineteen seventy five, millions and millions 291 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 2: of people called themselves a feminist, and that identity had 292 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:05,796 Speaker 2: great power in shaping how they saw the world. And 293 00:15:05,876 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 2: so we created this term weaver because we wanted term 294 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:12,756 Speaker 2: and seemed apt. And people embrace the idea that I 295 00:15:12,796 --> 00:15:14,196 Speaker 2: want to be a weaver or I am a weaver. 296 00:15:14,756 --> 00:15:19,356 Speaker 2: And our real theory of social change was society changes 297 00:15:19,356 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 2: when a small group of people find a better way 298 00:15:21,116 --> 00:15:23,916 Speaker 2: to live, and the rest of us copy, and so 299 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 2: weavers have found a better way to live. A more 300 00:15:26,876 --> 00:15:30,316 Speaker 2: formal organization you can join and say, for example, I'm 301 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:33,556 Speaker 2: a big admirer of an organization Baltimore called Threat and 302 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 2: Thread surrounds kids from the Baltimore schools with four volunteers 303 00:15:39,156 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 2: and then a network of people they call grandparents and 304 00:15:41,556 --> 00:15:45,916 Speaker 2: then counselors, and so it's an elaborate network surrounding these 305 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 2: young people, basically another form of extended family. And they 306 00:15:49,516 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 2: helped the kids go to school, if they need lunch, 307 00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:54,036 Speaker 2: anything an extended family would do for a young person. 308 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:58,356 Speaker 2: And the young people have been betrayed by life, and 309 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 2: so when the volunteers first showed up at their door, 310 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:05,476 Speaker 2: the kids often slam the door in their face. And 311 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 2: the rule of Thread is there's no leaving. It's like family, 312 00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:10,476 Speaker 2: there's no leaving. So short of a court order, you're 313 00:16:10,476 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 2: going to show up with the kid's door again and again, 314 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:15,996 Speaker 2: and the founder of the Woman named Sarah Hemminger says, 315 00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:20,196 Speaker 2: if you reject people and they keep showing up for you, 316 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 2: it's identity changing, and it's identity changing to be the 317 00:16:23,956 --> 00:16:26,436 Speaker 2: one who shows up. And so it's those kinds of 318 00:16:26,596 --> 00:16:31,396 Speaker 2: discrete actions that take place in communities every day. And 319 00:16:31,476 --> 00:16:34,316 Speaker 2: some of them are heroic and some of them are mundane. 320 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:36,676 Speaker 2: And we don't have to be as heroic as some 321 00:16:36,716 --> 00:16:38,636 Speaker 2: of them are. But if we bent our lives a 322 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:42,036 Speaker 2: little in that direction, America would be a more trusting place. 323 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:45,636 Speaker 2: I will say, the people I've met through Weave are 324 00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 2: some of the most fulfilled people, and anybody can do that. 325 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 1: So that's interdependence at the community level. But your most 326 00:16:52,996 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 1: recent work is really focused on becoming a little bit 327 00:16:55,396 --> 00:16:59,396 Speaker 1: more interdependent relationally, like person to person. And so tell 328 00:16:59,436 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 1: me a little bit about the origin story of How 329 00:17:01,436 --> 00:17:03,156 Speaker 1: to Know a Person. Where did the idea for that 330 00:17:03,156 --> 00:17:05,076 Speaker 1: book come from. It's much more kind of one on 331 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:07,116 Speaker 1: one than some of your other character development books. 332 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:10,236 Speaker 2: When I was working on Weave, using all these words 333 00:17:11,116 --> 00:17:15,676 Speaker 2: like community and relationship, and it struck me these words 334 00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 2: were abstractions that a relationship or a community is really 335 00:17:20,316 --> 00:17:25,756 Speaker 2: built out of discrete, second by second encounters. But a 336 00:17:25,796 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 2: lot of young people and a lot of old people 337 00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:31,676 Speaker 2: have not been taught basic social skills like how do 338 00:17:31,716 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 2: you sit with someone who's depressed, how do you break 339 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:37,116 Speaker 2: up with someone without crushing their heart? How do you 340 00:17:37,196 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 2: ask for an offer for forgiveness? Nobody ever taught me the 341 00:17:40,316 --> 00:17:43,556 Speaker 2: skill of how to end a conversation gracefully. So I 342 00:17:43,596 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 2: went to my high school reunion in my fifth one, 343 00:17:45,436 --> 00:17:48,276 Speaker 2: so I was younger, and my only move to get 344 00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:51,396 Speaker 2: out of a conversation in a cocktail like setting was 345 00:17:51,396 --> 00:17:52,436 Speaker 2: to say, I'm going to go to the bar and 346 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 2: get another drink. So twenty minutes into the reunion, I'm 347 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 2: so drunk I have to leave the reunion. I've had 348 00:17:57,236 --> 00:17:59,636 Speaker 2: like six drinks and twenty minutes. And so nobody had 349 00:17:59,636 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 2: ever taught me. And the apex skill is the skill 350 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:06,676 Speaker 2: of making others feel seen, heard, and understood. And that's 351 00:18:06,716 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 2: a skill, just the way learning tennis is a skill, 352 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 2: the way learn carpentry is a skill. 353 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:12,476 Speaker 1: It also seems like a skill that we're losing in 354 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:14,796 Speaker 1: modern society. Give me a sense of how bad we've 355 00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:17,196 Speaker 1: gotten when it comes to making others feel seen and hurt. 356 00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 2: We happen to be in a moment of deep spiritual 357 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:23,676 Speaker 2: and relational crisis. And I don't need to tell you 358 00:18:23,756 --> 00:18:26,476 Speaker 2: of all people that data on rising mental health, rising 359 00:18:26,516 --> 00:18:29,396 Speaker 2: suicide rates, the number of people who say they have 360 00:18:29,436 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 2: no friends, there's up, the number of people who rate 361 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:33,716 Speaker 2: themselves the lowest happiness categories, up, the number of people 362 00:18:33,756 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 2: not in a romantic relationship, the number of people who've 363 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:38,316 Speaker 2: broken with a member of their intimate family. There's just 364 00:18:38,396 --> 00:18:41,436 Speaker 2: a lot of sadness out there. And when their sadness, 365 00:18:41,476 --> 00:18:44,996 Speaker 2: there's meetness. Because if you feel yourself unseen and invisible, 366 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:48,716 Speaker 2: you feel it as an injustice, which it is, and 367 00:18:48,756 --> 00:18:51,436 Speaker 2: as a threat, and so you're prone to lashing out. 368 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 2: And when you're on a level of distrust, then it's 369 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:58,916 Speaker 2: very hard to reach out feel good. Social trust statistics 370 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:01,276 Speaker 2: used to be sixty percent of Americans said that I 371 00:19:01,276 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 2: can trust their neighbors. Now it's send a thirty percent. 372 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 2: Among millennials it is nineteen percent. So if you're thinking 373 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 2: that this person is fundamentally in trust worthy, then of 374 00:19:10,796 --> 00:19:13,196 Speaker 2: course you're not going to be vulnerable to them. And 375 00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:16,676 Speaker 2: friendship is a successive series of vulnerabilities, as you know, 376 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:19,436 Speaker 2: and so it's just going to be harder, and there's 377 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 2: going to be more distance, there's going to be suspicion, 378 00:19:22,476 --> 00:19:25,636 Speaker 2: and that makes it extremely hard to practice the skill 379 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:26,956 Speaker 2: of seeing others. 380 00:19:27,396 --> 00:19:29,516 Speaker 1: I know you've talked so much about how this skill 381 00:19:29,556 --> 00:19:31,756 Speaker 1: is needed for society, but given that you wrote the 382 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 1: book on this, was this something that you struggled with 383 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 1: as an individual? Were you good at seeing and hearing 384 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 1: others or was this something that you had to work on. 385 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:40,076 Speaker 2: My wife and I have been married for nine years 386 00:19:40,116 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 2: and she takes a looks at me from twenty years 387 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:45,236 Speaker 2: ago on videos. She says, well, I wouldn't I marry 388 00:19:45,276 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 2: that guy. I was the kind of person nobody would 389 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:52,716 Speaker 2: confide in. I was always busy. I had a clock 390 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:55,716 Speaker 2: in my head. It's a very good way to destroy relationships. 391 00:19:56,116 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 2: But mostly I think I was raised in a super cerebral, 392 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 2: academic household and it was easy to get buy on 393 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 2: brain power and ignore your heart. And so I think 394 00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 2: I was feeling things, but there was no highway between 395 00:20:08,316 --> 00:20:11,276 Speaker 2: my heart and my mouth and even my conscious mind. 396 00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:15,076 Speaker 2: There's an episode that happened to me maybe fifteen years 397 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:17,636 Speaker 2: ago that symbolized for me the old way of being, 398 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:20,716 Speaker 2: which is, I'm a big baseball fan. I've been to 399 00:20:20,756 --> 00:20:23,876 Speaker 2: a thousand ball games. I've never caught a foul ball. 400 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 2: So I'm in Camden Yards in Baltimore one day with 401 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:29,796 Speaker 2: my youngest son and somebody loses control of the bat 402 00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:32,956 Speaker 2: and it lands in my lap. And getting a bat 403 00:20:33,036 --> 00:20:35,356 Speaker 2: is a thousand times better than getting a ball, and 404 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 2: so I should have been jumping up and down, I 405 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 2: fiving everybody around me, hugging people, getting on a jumbo tron. 406 00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 2: I just took the bat and put it at my 407 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 2: feet and I stared straight ahead like a turtle. And 408 00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:49,396 Speaker 2: I look back on that guy and I think, show 409 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:53,116 Speaker 2: a little joy. And there was just a level of inhibition. 410 00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:56,716 Speaker 2: And I went through a period in twenty thirteen when 411 00:20:56,716 --> 00:20:59,236 Speaker 2: I was in a valley. My marriage was coming apart, 412 00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 2: my kids were even school. I was lonely. I did 413 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:04,476 Speaker 2: what any middle aged male idiot would do, which is 414 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 2: I tried to work my way through the problem. Workoholism 415 00:21:07,396 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 2: is a very ineffective social therapy for a spiritual and emotional. 416 00:21:11,396 --> 00:21:13,516 Speaker 1: Crisis, but it looks very good from the outside. You 417 00:21:13,516 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 1: get a lot of resume virtue. 418 00:21:14,756 --> 00:21:16,836 Speaker 2: Too, very good from the outside, because it looks like 419 00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 2: you're cruising. But I experienced loneliness as sort of a 420 00:21:20,516 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 2: burning in the stomach. Then I read a passage by 421 00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 2: Frederic Beekner, the novelist, and he says, in moments of pain, 422 00:21:28,636 --> 00:21:31,276 Speaker 2: you can either be broken or broken open. You can 423 00:21:31,316 --> 00:21:35,156 Speaker 2: be broken by making yourself invulnerable, by covering up, callousing over. 424 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 2: When you're broken open, you make yourself, even though it'dst 425 00:21:37,876 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 2: of pain, more vulnerable. But that's really the only pathway 426 00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 2: to growth. And so I began to work on this, 427 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:46,556 Speaker 2: and so I did it in a good old University 428 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:50,436 Speaker 2: of Chicago fashion. I wrote a book about emotion. But 429 00:21:50,476 --> 00:21:53,356 Speaker 2: then I tried to practice it. And a couple of 430 00:21:53,396 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 2: years ago, I was at a conference in Nantucket. I 431 00:21:56,156 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 2: was in the audience. Speaker gave us all a piece 432 00:21:59,116 --> 00:22:03,156 Speaker 2: of paper, and on the piece of paper was lyrics 433 00:22:03,156 --> 00:22:05,676 Speaker 2: to a love song, and he said to us, I 434 00:22:05,716 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 2: want you to find somebody you don't know, gaze into 435 00:22:08,396 --> 00:22:11,836 Speaker 2: their eyes, and sing the love song to them. And 436 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 2: if you had asked the old me to do that, 437 00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 2: I would have spontaneously combusted. I found some guy, I'm 438 00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 2: sanging in his eyes. There are no sparks between us, sadly, 439 00:22:19,596 --> 00:22:21,756 Speaker 2: but I did it and it was a happy day 440 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 2: for me, a proud day because it shows you it's 441 00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:27,076 Speaker 2: never too late to change. You can change at seventy, 442 00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 2: you can change it eighty, you can change at ninety. 443 00:22:28,636 --> 00:22:31,516 Speaker 2: It's never too late to change a bit who you are. 444 00:22:31,756 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 1: One of the great things about your book is I 445 00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: think you talk about how we can change to become 446 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:38,076 Speaker 1: better at connecting with one another, but you do this 447 00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:41,076 Speaker 1: in this really practical way. You almost look at relationships 448 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:43,436 Speaker 1: at a real micro level, about the things we can change. 449 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 1: And one of the things I love that you focused 450 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:48,156 Speaker 1: on is just changing our level of attention. What can 451 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: we do with our attention to do better? 452 00:22:50,316 --> 00:22:53,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. Simond Veyo French mystic, said attention is the ultimate 453 00:22:53,196 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 2: act of generosity. For her, attention really was the foundation 454 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 2: of all morality. One of her students, not liberally, but 455 00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:03,836 Speaker 2: someone who learned a lot from her, is Irish Murdoch, 456 00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:07,396 Speaker 2: the philosopher and novelist, and Murdoch said, you know, we 457 00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:12,316 Speaker 2: usually look at each other through self centered eyes. Is 458 00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:13,716 Speaker 2: this the person going to be good for me or 459 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:15,116 Speaker 2: bad for me? Is going to make me feel good? 460 00:23:15,156 --> 00:23:18,356 Speaker 2: Make me feel bad and she said what we should 461 00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 2: do is cast what she called a just and loving 462 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:24,036 Speaker 2: attention on another, so to see people with just and 463 00:23:24,116 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 2: loving eyes. I wrote about this in the last book. 464 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:30,036 Speaker 2: I was in a diner in Waco having breakfast with 465 00:23:30,076 --> 00:23:33,556 Speaker 2: a ninety three year old lad named LaRue Dorsey, and 466 00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 2: she presented herself to me as a strict disciplinarian, like 467 00:23:35,996 --> 00:23:37,956 Speaker 2: a drill sergeant. Lady. She'd been a teacher, and she said, 468 00:23:37,956 --> 00:23:41,116 Speaker 2: I love my students enough to be tough for them. 469 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 2: And I was intimidated by this formidable lady, and into 470 00:23:44,876 --> 00:23:46,756 Speaker 2: the diner walks a mutual friend of ours, a pastor 471 00:23:46,836 --> 00:23:49,036 Speaker 2: named Jimmy Drell, who pastors to the homeless in Waco, 472 00:23:49,956 --> 00:23:51,516 Speaker 2: and he comes up to us. He knows us both, 473 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:54,636 Speaker 2: and he grabbs Miss Dorsey by the shoulders and he says, 474 00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 2: missus Dorsey, you're the best. I love you. And that 475 00:23:58,516 --> 00:24:00,996 Speaker 2: stern disciplinarian lady I had been talking to, who turned 476 00:24:00,996 --> 00:24:03,076 Speaker 2: in an instant into a bright eye, shining nine year 477 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:06,676 Speaker 2: old girl. He brought forth a different version of her 478 00:24:06,756 --> 00:24:10,076 Speaker 2: with the power of his attention. And it shows that 479 00:24:10,316 --> 00:24:13,956 Speaker 2: power of that skill, and it can even achieve almost 480 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:16,796 Speaker 2: a spiritual quality. One of my favorite stories which I 481 00:24:16,836 --> 00:24:19,036 Speaker 2: read somewhere and I hope it's true, but it sounds apocryphal, 482 00:24:19,036 --> 00:24:21,556 Speaker 2: but I'm going to say it anyway. It's about Dan 483 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 2: Rather interviewing Mother Teresa, and Dan Rather said to Mother Teresa, 484 00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 2: when you pray to God, what do you say to 485 00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:30,956 Speaker 2: And she said, Oh, I don't say anything. I just listen. 486 00:24:31,956 --> 00:24:33,916 Speaker 2: And Rather says, well, what is God saying to you? 487 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:36,916 Speaker 2: And Mother Teresa says, oh, he's not saying anything, He's 488 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:41,316 Speaker 2: just listening, listening. This just tremendously powerful. 489 00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 1: Well, it's also something I feel like we've lost in 490 00:24:43,756 --> 00:24:46,236 Speaker 1: modern society. Explain some of the challenges that make this 491 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:47,956 Speaker 1: sort of attention harder these days. 492 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:52,716 Speaker 2: Well, the obvious ones are the phones. The deeper one 493 00:24:52,996 --> 00:24:57,236 Speaker 2: is we really value autonomy, and I'm one of those 494 00:24:57,476 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 2: who does, but it's sometimes extremely self destructive. If I 495 00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:05,316 Speaker 2: get up and I look at my calendar and there's 496 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:07,636 Speaker 2: like one call or one meeting, I think, oh, this 497 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 2: day is so crowded. Oh, and I want to just 498 00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 2: sit and write alone, Like it's easy to be alone. 499 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:18,756 Speaker 2: But somehow we're over autonomizing, if that's a word. And 500 00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 2: it seems easier in the short term, but it's poorer 501 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:22,596 Speaker 2: in the long term. 502 00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: So how do we fight this tendency to overvalue autonomy 503 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:27,836 Speaker 1: so that we can connect again When we get back 504 00:25:27,836 --> 00:25:30,876 Speaker 1: from the break, David will share some practical strategies for 505 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:35,716 Speaker 1: rebuilding interdependence, ones that are essential for getting spiritually unstuck. 506 00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:38,756 Speaker 1: In the new year, The Happiness Lab will be right back. 507 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:46,796 Speaker 1: In his recent book How to Know a Person, author 508 00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:49,836 Speaker 1: and political commentator David Brooks contends that we'd all be 509 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:52,836 Speaker 1: happier and feel less stuck if we connected better with 510 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:55,996 Speaker 1: the people around us. But to do that, David says, 511 00:25:56,276 --> 00:25:59,156 Speaker 1: we need to better understand the concept of empathy. 512 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:03,076 Speaker 2: I think empathy is three things. One, it's an emotional 513 00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 2: connection and that's just like physically sharing an emotion. And 514 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 2: then it's mentalizing. I'm using my experiences to deliver theories 515 00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 2: about what you're probably going through. And then the third 516 00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:18,036 Speaker 2: part of empathy is caring. If you go on the 517 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 2: street and play three card MONI with a card shark, 518 00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 2: he empathizes with you. He knows what you're feeling, he 519 00:26:23,436 --> 00:26:26,596 Speaker 2: knows how to manipulate that, but he doesn't care. We 520 00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:29,556 Speaker 2: want effective care. It's not doing what's comfortable for you, 521 00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:33,476 Speaker 2: but doing what the other person needs at that exact moment. 522 00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:36,396 Speaker 2: When I was at Yale, had a student named Jillian 523 00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 2: whose dad had died of pancreatic cancer. After she got 524 00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:45,716 Speaker 2: out of college, I had with Gradston and her dad. 525 00:26:45,996 --> 00:26:49,636 Speaker 2: She had the conversation that he would probably not be 526 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:53,916 Speaker 2: there for her big life events like her marriage, and 527 00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 2: a couple of months after he died, she was nobody 528 00:26:56,396 --> 00:27:00,236 Speaker 2: to be a bridesmaid at her friend's wedding, and she 529 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:02,596 Speaker 2: watched the father of that bride give a beautiful toast 530 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:05,676 Speaker 2: to his daughter, and then it came time and the 531 00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:11,036 Speaker 2: reception for the father daughter dance, and said, just too soon. 532 00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:13,916 Speaker 2: So she went to the lady's room to have a cry. 533 00:27:14,596 --> 00:27:17,036 Speaker 2: And when she got out of the lady's room in 534 00:27:17,076 --> 00:27:19,796 Speaker 2: the hallway, all the people at her table at the 535 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:23,036 Speaker 2: reception and the adjacent table were just standing there in 536 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:26,836 Speaker 2: the hallway and they gave her a supportive hug. Nobody 537 00:27:26,876 --> 00:27:30,236 Speaker 2: said anything. They just gave her a hug and went 538 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 2: back to their tables, and she said, it was exactly 539 00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 2: what I needed at that moment. So somebody at one 540 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:39,716 Speaker 2: of those tables said, let's go be in the hallway 541 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 2: for Jillian, and that is empathy horror x lots. That's 542 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:47,476 Speaker 2: knowing just what she needs, but not too much. 543 00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:50,236 Speaker 1: It seems like there's so many things to get in 544 00:27:50,236 --> 00:27:52,316 Speaker 1: the way of that. One is something we've talked about before, 545 00:27:52,356 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: which is time. Right, We're just too busy, we don't 546 00:27:54,956 --> 00:27:57,396 Speaker 1: have time to notice. The other is a tension, which 547 00:27:57,396 --> 00:27:59,836 Speaker 1: we've talked about. We're not there, But the only thing 548 00:27:59,956 --> 00:28:02,236 Speaker 1: is a mistaken notion that we have about this culture 549 00:28:02,236 --> 00:28:04,476 Speaker 1: of achievement that like putting in the work for that 550 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 1: kind of empathy is going to kind of give a 551 00:28:06,556 --> 00:28:10,476 Speaker 1: hit to our own individual success, our individual ability. And 552 00:28:10,516 --> 00:28:12,996 Speaker 1: this is psychologically just really painful for me when folks 553 00:28:13,076 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 1: describe this, because I think what all the work shows 554 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:18,836 Speaker 1: is that this act of being empathic makes us feel 555 00:28:18,876 --> 00:28:20,876 Speaker 1: really good. Right, Everyone who left their table to go 556 00:28:20,916 --> 00:28:24,436 Speaker 1: stand in that hallway for Jillian felt amazing afterward. What 557 00:28:24,556 --> 00:28:26,756 Speaker 1: is it about this modern sense of achievement that gets 558 00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 1: empathy wrong, that kind of puts us on this wrong 559 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:30,436 Speaker 1: track of not realizing how valuable it is. 560 00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:34,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think partly we've been schooled in the idea 561 00:28:34,836 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 2: that the more selfish we are, the more will succeed 562 00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:41,116 Speaker 2: and we've even more been schooled in the idea that 563 00:28:41,156 --> 00:28:44,676 Speaker 2: other people are selfish. And I often ask my students 564 00:28:45,556 --> 00:28:49,116 Speaker 2: do you think human beings are fundamentally selfish or fundamentally 565 00:28:49,116 --> 00:28:54,836 Speaker 2: cooperative and altruistic? And I think more than in generations past, 566 00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:57,876 Speaker 2: the high number of people say selfish. There's a guy 567 00:28:57,916 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 2: at you know, Chicago, a friend of mine named Nick Eppie, 568 00:29:00,596 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 2: who asks his business school students what drives you to 569 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:06,876 Speaker 2: go into business? And they say, oh, you know, I 570 00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:10,236 Speaker 2: really value service and I want to be a service 571 00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:12,676 Speaker 2: to other people. And he says, what about your classmates? 572 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:16,036 Speaker 2: What drive them to go into business? And everyone says money, money, 573 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:21,316 Speaker 2: And so I think we ascribe darker motivations to others. 574 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:26,996 Speaker 2: And when you do that, you develop a dark world mentality. 575 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,316 Speaker 2: And I'll start with our politics, not to get too political, 576 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:33,476 Speaker 2: but I think the guy who sits in the White 577 00:29:33,516 --> 00:29:36,156 Speaker 2: House right now has a very dark world mentality that 578 00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 2: life is about doggy dog and it's if you don't 579 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:42,076 Speaker 2: screw them first, they're going to screw you. And a 580 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:44,476 Speaker 2: lot of people, not only Donald Trump, a lot of 581 00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:48,156 Speaker 2: people have a dark world view that you really have 582 00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:49,916 Speaker 2: to protect yourself, you really have to guard your heart, 583 00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 2: and I think they have an overly negative view of 584 00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 2: reality I found in my life and you know, obviously 585 00:29:57,236 --> 00:29:59,476 Speaker 2: I've got a lot of privileges and all that, but 586 00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:04,796 Speaker 2: if you act in ways that are trusting, preemptive, vulnerability, 587 00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:07,836 Speaker 2: you will be betrayed sometimes and they will hurt you. 588 00:30:08,636 --> 00:30:11,836 Speaker 2: But it's better and most of the time it pays 589 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:15,636 Speaker 2: off and you're glad you led with trust. But that 590 00:30:15,756 --> 00:30:18,596 Speaker 2: is not something that often gets talked about, and we 591 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:21,396 Speaker 2: have this negativity. I read a story I forget what 592 00:30:21,476 --> 00:30:24,836 Speaker 2: it was, in some online magazine a couple of years ago, 593 00:30:25,236 --> 00:30:26,596 Speaker 2: and it was about a bunch of books that were 594 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:30,516 Speaker 2: coming out about motherhood, and the books had these negative titles, 595 00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:33,516 Speaker 2: like it was all how dark and how rotten it 596 00:30:33,596 --> 00:30:37,356 Speaker 2: was to be a mom, And the reporter notes in 597 00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:39,996 Speaker 2: the middle of the piece, she said, the funny thing 598 00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 2: happened to me while reporting this piece. The old woman 599 00:30:42,636 --> 00:30:45,156 Speaker 2: I was interviewed and pulled me aside and said, we 600 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:47,596 Speaker 2: have a word off the record, And she said, I 601 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:49,756 Speaker 2: don't want you to put this in the article, but 602 00:30:49,996 --> 00:30:53,196 Speaker 2: I kind of like being a mom. I love my kids, 603 00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 2: my partner is equitable, but please don't put that in 604 00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:58,836 Speaker 2: public because they're afraid of. If they say that, it'll 605 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:00,996 Speaker 2: seem in sensitives people who are going through hard time. 606 00:31:01,956 --> 00:31:04,356 Speaker 2: And when you're in a culture where you can't admit 607 00:31:04,356 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 2: that you love being a mom or a dad, you're 608 00:31:06,596 --> 00:31:09,556 Speaker 2: in a pretty pessimistic culture. And if you just look, 609 00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:12,276 Speaker 2: if you do Google and brand, what words we use 610 00:31:12,996 --> 00:31:19,156 Speaker 2: to describe the world. The usage of negative words like anger, horror, 611 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:26,356 Speaker 2: pain is surging, and the usage of positive words joy, success, whatever, 612 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 2: is plummeting. So public culture and public conversation has become 613 00:31:31,636 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 2: very negative. And that's in part because of the Internet. 614 00:31:33,796 --> 00:31:36,436 Speaker 2: Because people in my profession in the media, the number 615 00:31:36,476 --> 00:31:39,476 Speaker 2: of headlines we write mean to generate fear and anger. 616 00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:43,236 Speaker 2: It just creates this negative climate. And in this negative climate, 617 00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:45,836 Speaker 2: it's hard to lead with vulnerability and trust and the 618 00:31:45,876 --> 00:31:47,916 Speaker 2: sorts of things that would actually lead to the connection. 619 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 1: But it seems like when we take action ourselves to 620 00:31:51,076 --> 00:31:53,436 Speaker 1: make those connections, when we really try to see others, 621 00:31:53,876 --> 00:31:55,836 Speaker 1: we wind up creating the opposite cycle. 622 00:31:55,916 --> 00:31:56,076 Speaker 2: Right. 623 00:31:56,076 --> 00:31:57,636 Speaker 1: We can be in this kind of dark cycle where 624 00:31:57,676 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 1: everything feels bad and we just continue to see more 625 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:01,316 Speaker 1: evidence of it. But it feels like when we do 626 00:32:01,356 --> 00:32:03,676 Speaker 1: the act of putting good out there ourselves. Then we 627 00:32:03,716 --> 00:32:06,036 Speaker 1: wind up seeing it more, and then other people reciprocate 628 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 1: that good to us, and then we can build these 629 00:32:08,276 --> 00:32:09,116 Speaker 1: more positive cycles. 630 00:32:09,516 --> 00:32:11,556 Speaker 2: Let me tell him one other Nick Keppley's story. He 631 00:32:11,596 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 2: and I were on stage at Chicago and he was 632 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:16,996 Speaker 2: interviewing me and bet something. After forty five minutes in 633 00:32:17,036 --> 00:32:19,676 Speaker 2: the interview, he says to the audience, Okay, I want you, 634 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 2: all of you to find somebody in the audience you 635 00:32:22,196 --> 00:32:24,436 Speaker 2: don't know, and for the next ten minutes, you're going 636 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:26,396 Speaker 2: to talk about the high point of your life, the 637 00:32:26,436 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 2: low point of your life, in the turning point of 638 00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:32,316 Speaker 2: your life. And the audience groaned, and he said, how 639 00:32:32,356 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 2: many of you don't want to do this? And eighty 640 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:37,556 Speaker 2: percent of the hands went up, and Nick said go 641 00:32:38,796 --> 00:32:41,076 Speaker 2: and then and they started sharing their high points and 642 00:32:41,116 --> 00:32:43,396 Speaker 2: low points at the hurning points. And ten minutes later, 643 00:32:43,396 --> 00:32:45,436 Speaker 2: when we were supposed to get them back to paying 644 00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:47,956 Speaker 2: attention to us, they wouldn't shut up. They were having 645 00:32:47,996 --> 00:32:50,236 Speaker 2: such a good time that they would not shut up. 646 00:32:50,556 --> 00:32:53,596 Speaker 2: And finally, twenty minutes going by, and finally they stopped 647 00:32:53,596 --> 00:32:55,116 Speaker 2: talking to each other and they listen to us again. 648 00:32:55,956 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 2: And Nick said, how many of you enjoyed that, and 649 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:00,996 Speaker 2: eighty percent of the hands went up. And one of 650 00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:03,276 Speaker 2: his findings, and he's got a book about this coming 651 00:33:03,276 --> 00:33:06,236 Speaker 2: out soon, is that we underestimate how much we'll enjoy 652 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:09,556 Speaker 2: talking to strangers. We underestimate how deep people want to get, 653 00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:12,436 Speaker 2: and so we have this dark and pessimistic pew which 654 00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:15,876 Speaker 2: is not accurate. And now, because of Nick, when I'm 655 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:18,476 Speaker 2: on a plane sometimes and I'm word with my reading 656 00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:20,196 Speaker 2: with like an hour left to go on the flight, 657 00:33:20,236 --> 00:33:22,116 Speaker 2: I take out my headphones and I start talking to 658 00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:25,516 Speaker 2: my neighbor. And I will tell you I've never had 659 00:33:25,516 --> 00:33:27,676 Speaker 2: a moment where the conversation with whoever I was with 660 00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:31,716 Speaker 2: was less interesting than the book. It's always more interesting somehow. 661 00:33:32,156 --> 00:33:34,476 Speaker 2: And so it's a good habit to force yourself to do, 662 00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:35,956 Speaker 2: even if you think it'll be worring. 663 00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:38,436 Speaker 1: You have to be more vulnerable than you think. I 664 00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:40,996 Speaker 1: think one of the great things about Nick's Deep Questions 665 00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 1: is that they're sharing things that you're kind of a 666 00:33:43,236 --> 00:33:45,196 Speaker 1: little bit embarrassed about. Their questions like when was the 667 00:33:45,236 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 1: last time you cried, you know, or your house was 668 00:33:47,756 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 1: on fire. What's the thing you don't like to admit 669 00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:51,316 Speaker 1: but that you take with you anyway, because it matters 670 00:33:51,356 --> 00:33:54,756 Speaker 1: to you. We're sharing these darker, more vulnerable parts of ourselves, 671 00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:57,356 Speaker 1: and we assume that that's going to feel terrifying, but 672 00:33:57,396 --> 00:33:58,756 Speaker 1: in fact it feels great. 673 00:33:59,116 --> 00:34:01,636 Speaker 2: My job as a journalist is to ask people questions 674 00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:04,356 Speaker 2: and often about their lives, and often and difficult moments 675 00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:08,436 Speaker 2: of their lives. And so how often has someone said 676 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:13,596 Speaker 2: to me, none of your damn business. The answer is zero, 677 00:34:13,636 --> 00:34:16,356 Speaker 2: and so you should ask. There's another guy who you 678 00:34:16,356 --> 00:34:20,116 Speaker 2: probably know much better than I named Dan McAdams said Northwestern. 679 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:22,836 Speaker 2: He studies a lot how people tell their life stories, 680 00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:25,556 Speaker 2: and he interviews people over four hours, and then he 681 00:34:25,796 --> 00:34:27,796 Speaker 2: wants to slide him a little check to compensate them 682 00:34:27,796 --> 00:34:29,916 Speaker 2: for their time, and a lot of people push the 683 00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:31,916 Speaker 2: check back and say, I don't want money for this. 684 00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:34,356 Speaker 2: This has been one of the best afternoons of my life. 685 00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:38,236 Speaker 2: No one's ever asked. And so that's just a clues 686 00:34:38,276 --> 00:34:41,916 Speaker 2: you go through life that the quality of your conversations 687 00:34:41,956 --> 00:34:43,476 Speaker 2: is really the quality of your interaction. 688 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:45,996 Speaker 1: So we've talked about all these ways that we can 689 00:34:46,356 --> 00:34:49,156 Speaker 1: boost our character, that we can become more connected both 690 00:34:49,196 --> 00:34:52,436 Speaker 1: to our communities and just relationally with other people. There's 691 00:34:52,436 --> 00:34:55,076 Speaker 1: so many of the great strategies you've shared today, But 692 00:34:55,156 --> 00:34:57,716 Speaker 1: I worry that there's a risk that people hearing this 693 00:34:57,796 --> 00:35:00,716 Speaker 1: will then try to turn character development into another New 694 00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:03,596 Speaker 1: Year achievement project. Just you know, they swap in a 695 00:35:03,636 --> 00:35:06,436 Speaker 1: new scorecard, but now they're going for that. Any final 696 00:35:06,476 --> 00:35:09,636 Speaker 1: tips to make this really more about character and not 697 00:35:09,756 --> 00:35:11,276 Speaker 1: about achievement and optimization. 698 00:35:12,116 --> 00:35:15,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm all about mixed motives. If you're doing something 699 00:35:15,036 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 2: for a selfish region and an altruistic reason, that's just 700 00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:21,076 Speaker 2: a sign that society is well structured. And so if 701 00:35:21,116 --> 00:35:23,356 Speaker 2: you're trying to become a better person because you think 702 00:35:23,396 --> 00:35:26,396 Speaker 2: it'll win you friends and admirers, I'm fine with that. 703 00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:32,156 Speaker 2: There's a difference between ambition and aspiration, and ambition is 704 00:35:32,196 --> 00:35:35,876 Speaker 2: to try to build up outward success, and aspiration is 705 00:35:35,996 --> 00:35:37,476 Speaker 2: just try to be a better person. 706 00:35:38,276 --> 00:35:41,116 Speaker 1: The next time you're feeling stuck, ask yourself what you're 707 00:35:41,156 --> 00:35:44,156 Speaker 1: putting your energy into. Is it ambition and all the 708 00:35:44,276 --> 00:35:47,916 Speaker 1: usual resume virtues, or are you following David's advice and 709 00:35:47,956 --> 00:35:51,996 Speaker 1: going for aspiration instead, Because the science shows that focusing 710 00:35:52,116 --> 00:35:55,036 Speaker 1: on eulogy virtues is likely to give you a way 711 00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:58,636 Speaker 1: longer happiness boost than the typical selfish goals. And if 712 00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:01,276 Speaker 1: you're looking for inspiration, why don't you follow some of 713 00:36:01,276 --> 00:36:04,196 Speaker 1: the advice you heard today. Check out the biographies of 714 00:36:04,236 --> 00:36:06,476 Speaker 1: people you admire so that you can learn about the 715 00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:09,876 Speaker 1: values that guide them. Look around your own community to 716 00:36:09,916 --> 00:36:12,476 Speaker 1: see what's needed and figure out what you might have 717 00:36:12,556 --> 00:36:16,796 Speaker 1: to offer. And finally, don't underestimate small moments of connection. 718 00:36:17,476 --> 00:36:19,996 Speaker 1: Even a brief few minutes of attention can make all 719 00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:23,836 Speaker 1: the difference. In next week's installment of this special season 720 00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:27,556 Speaker 1: of the Happiness Lab, we'll explore how to get unstuck creatively. 721 00:36:28,196 --> 00:36:30,636 Speaker 1: We'll meet an expert on the science of innovation to 722 00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:32,916 Speaker 1: see how we can break out of our creative blocks 723 00:36:33,116 --> 00:36:36,036 Speaker 1: to get some new ideas flowing. In twenty twenty six. 724 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:39,236 Speaker 2: The research suggests that it's in fact those ideas that 725 00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:42,956 Speaker 2: we maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable or anxious about 726 00:36:43,076 --> 00:36:45,116 Speaker 2: that wind up being the most promising 727 00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:48,956 Speaker 1: That's coming up next week Unhappiness Lab with me Doctor 728 00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:49,836 Speaker 1: Laurie Santo's