1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: back to work in progress, my DearS. We are in 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: the midst of a vulnerable conversation with Carter Brown, and 4 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: I'd like to continue down that path, asking some questions 5 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: that are probably hard to answer, and honestly exercising I'd 6 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: say my best self. In doing so, We're showing up 7 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: really vulnerably and patiently, and I appreciate the journey with her, 8 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: and I appreciate you all for being on it with us. 9 00:00:49,720 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: Let's dive back in with Carter. Can I ask something 10 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: just like, because obviously we're figuring out what sphere of 11 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: information your former side is operating with, and I'm clearly 12 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: asking some questions about what you've seen from the sphere 13 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: of information I get to see, which is probably more 14 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: than most people. I mean, listen, I went to journalism school, 15 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: like I'm a news junkie, A I am a believer 16 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: in community organizing because I think policy is politics, but 17 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: actually politics are personal, like I can be a little 18 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: I don't know what the word is excited about the 19 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: possibility if it isn't corrupt, right, but that's big picture 20 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: like for us, Steph I'm curious for you. You know, 21 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: you've you've mentioned your kids, and you've mentioned your husband. 22 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: How is your deconstruction going in your marriage, because clearly 23 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: you have been married longer than you've been unpacking these fallacies. 24 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: Is your husband going along for the ride with you? 25 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 2: He grew up in a progressive, left leaning home. Oh well, 26 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: and when we were dating, I remember I asked him. 27 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: Who do you think goes to heaven? 28 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: And he goes everyone and I laughed, and I am 29 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 2: so desperately trying to get that man back. I indoctrinated him. 30 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: He's the one who started questioning Trump before I, and 31 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: so he and I were really big into the conspiracy thing. 32 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: And during the pandemic, like you, we both were essential workers, 33 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: so we went into the office every day. But like 34 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 2: it was just like us in our bubble pretty much, 35 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: you know. And so yeah, that's all we really looked into. 36 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: And then we got married, and like, I never stopped 37 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: looking into stuff. And so when I debunked rapture culture, 38 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: it was really hard for him to like understand where 39 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: I'm coming from because he's having weekly Bible studies and 40 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: reading his Bible every night and trying to be the 41 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: man that he agreed to my father to be as 42 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: my husband, because when he asked my dad for my 43 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: hand in marriage, that's when he became a Christian. My 44 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: dad converted him that day. And you know, he Tyler 45 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: has seen a lot of like great things that have 46 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: happened since becoming more disciplined in his relationship with God. 47 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: But we're both kind of going through it right now. 48 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: And he actually admitted to me the other day that 49 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: he's like, I think I'm going through a professional ego death. 50 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: And I was like, we're getting somewhere. This is great. 51 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: But over the last year, basically all of twenty twenty five, 52 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: it was really rough. I mean, you know, he'd be like, 53 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: what do you mean you don't believe in hell anymore? 54 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: And it would just I. 55 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: Didn't know how to like defend where I was, to 56 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: be able to like regurgitate it, and so it just 57 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: became like explosive and blow up. And you know, he's 58 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: reading his Bible and I'm not. I'm talking to God 59 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: more than I'm doing anything like that, and we're just 60 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: going opposite directions. 61 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: And it's not lost on me that you've had the 62 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: experience of realizing that the arena of your conviction was 63 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: maybe not as for good as you were always told, 64 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: and now you are trying to do some good out 65 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: of the harm done by that, and so I I 66 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: think that's why your story is powerful. I also am 67 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: curious what stories like you mentioned have been powerful to you, 68 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: Like what are what are the documentaries you've watched with 69 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: your husband? You know, you mentioned that you saw a 70 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: documentary last January that really opened your eyes, Like, what 71 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: are the things that have been helpful in terms of 72 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: well told stories that help you see what's happening around you? 73 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 2: So MAGA and evangelical Christianity go like this, and so 74 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: the House of Cards fell from you and I deep 75 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: on tell and someone in the comment section put it 76 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: really like just perfectly. 77 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 3: They were like. 78 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: Questioning the punishment of the system caused you the system 79 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 2: to like crumble essentially. And so it's called eternal theater. 80 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: You honestly can just listen to it. It's not really 81 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: visually stimulating. 82 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 3: You can just be on a tread listen to it. 83 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: You would do it like a podcast. 84 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically okay, And it I mean lays it out historically, 85 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: like how Man created this idea and it was form 86 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: of control and all that, and I mean, it's irrefutable. 87 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: And then we watched a couple months ago, uh Sins 88 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: of Our Father, which is made by a twenty sixteen 89 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: Trump voter, and the whole documentary is about why he's 90 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: not a voter for Trump anymore. And he grew up 91 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: in Charleston, and so it was about him like deconstructing 92 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 2: all of that and like really showing how the deep 93 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: racist roots of our country. And before we watched that video, 94 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: my husband didn't understand why. I felt like, I like, 95 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: I'll claim it right now. I am a civil rights 96 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 2: activist and I will die being a civil rights activist 97 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: and that's what I want to do and that's who 98 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: I believe I am. And my husband didn't understand that. 99 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 2: And after watching that documentary, the credits rolled and he 100 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: was like, well, I just learned a lot and I 101 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 2: understand why you feel the way that you feel. And 102 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: we as a country need to heal. Yeah, the highest 103 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: form of accountability is healing. This is how why our 104 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: country has not healed. We have not healed after Civil War. 105 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: We did not heal after like post segregation, like we 106 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: did not heal collectively. We have not heard black voices 107 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: in this country to a way that we need to 108 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: and to piggyback off what you're saying of like how 109 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: I'm doing this and being able to handle the criticism 110 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: and not turn and run back or delete my profile 111 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: or never go back. It's like I'm past that I 112 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: am on this journey that I know I will never 113 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: get anything right, like I will always need to have 114 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: the mirror put in front of me and showing like, hey, 115 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: this is where you missed the mark. 116 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: And you know you said, like you've woken up to 117 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: understand what these systems look like. And one of the 118 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: ways I think about they that oppress so many of 119 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: us look people are fallible, and people can be horrible, 120 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: and there are absolutely like racist, sexist monsters among us, 121 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: people who think rape is funny, people who think communities 122 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: of color deserve harm. Those people I'm not interested in 123 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: talking to, but people who want to understand how, even 124 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: in their subconscious their beliefs or their behaviors might have 125 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: been shaped by systems, not by their own choice or 126 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: even by their own awareness. Like that's a conversation I 127 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: want to have all day. And one of the things 128 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: that has really been illuminating to me about the systems 129 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: is to understand how influence they've always been by money, 130 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: because money is defined for so many as power, and 131 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 1: when you see how you know, pre Christian tradition, for example, 132 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: there was so much sacredness of both both spirits of 133 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: men and women, the masculine the feminine. There was even 134 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: the honor of you know, the most demonized people by 135 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: the evangelicals right now or the trans community, whereas historically 136 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: two spirit people were thought to have the knowledge of 137 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: the whole universe, like, oh my God, you are magic 138 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: because you understand all of it and in every other 139 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, being or avenue. Two halves have to make 140 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 1: a whole. And I don't just mean like you know, 141 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: how you make a baby, obviously, I mean like spiritually, energetically. 142 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: And when agriculture, you know, this incredible discovery and invention 143 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: and expansion of science that could allow us to feed 144 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: ourselves year around, became about ownership. Cows became property and 145 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: so did women. And the stain on America of hundreds 146 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: of years of slavery was a about production. It was 147 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: about stealing labor. And yes, absolutely influenced by and allowed 148 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: by and created out of racism and bigotry for people 149 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: considered other. But like when you really get down to it, 150 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: and you go, oh, we subjugate everybody for money for money, 151 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: Like it's so antithetical to every good faith tradition, the 152 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: metaphors of care, of giving more than you have. It's 153 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: so crazy, and I think those wake up calls for people. 154 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: I think seeing stories like you've talked about. I have 155 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: two things for you guys. You have to watch Origin 156 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: by Ava du Verne. It is an incredible film she 157 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: made about Isabelle Wilkerson's work on cast and that's a 158 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: big eye opener and it's tough, like you actually see 159 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: how the Nazis based what they did to the Jews 160 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: in Germany on American Jim Crow laws. Like it's it's bad, 161 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: but it's important. And Ava, as the legend that she is, 162 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: manages to tell this story through the lens of the researcher, 163 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: so you're you're falling in love with this woman and 164 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: her family and you're learning really hard lessons at the 165 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: same time. So it is it is indelible. And then 166 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: there's a researcher I really like because again, you know 167 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: I mentioned to you and a lot of people who 168 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: listen to the show know this. Like I always joke 169 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: my religious upbringing it was just a bunch of cats 170 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: in a bag. So I like to study all the 171 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: religions and also people who don't believe in them at all. 172 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: And there's a there's a writer and a philosopher, Alan 173 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: de Bauton, who wrote a book called Religion for Atheists, 174 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: and it is so incredible because it it talks about 175 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: all the incredible tradition that humans created together that then 176 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: got co opted by religions as as modern society evolved. 177 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: And how if we could just hold our traditions the 178 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: things we need as humans, maybe we wouldn't all be 179 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: so insane about our religions and we could like make 180 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: room for them and for other peoples. So I think 181 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: you'll really like them both. Yeah, and now a word 182 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 1: from our sponsors who make this show possible. So the 183 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: question is because you are on the path to it 184 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: and listen, I do think as hard as it can 185 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: be to learn in public, I think it is it's 186 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: like going to grad school instead of being a junior 187 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: in high school. Like it really so much public access 188 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: and input can be overwhelming, but it really can teach 189 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: you so much more quickly. But I my question really 190 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: revolves around you know, we see people who want to 191 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: leave it, but they stop short of confronting these these 192 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: buckets of bigotry, if you will, racism, homophobia, transphobia, you know, 193 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: sexism even. Why do you think there are folks from 194 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: your spiritual neck of the woods who want to leave 195 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: MAGA is a movement, but who don't want to confront 196 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: those issues that you just talked about. You know, you're 197 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: confronting your husband's confronting with you. You learn the history, 198 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: you see the facts, and then you can't deny it anymore. 199 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: Why do you think people want to stop short of 200 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: really examining that stuff? 201 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: Because I think they're so wrapped up in their religion. 202 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: You know, I've had some friends that are like, yeah, 203 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: I'm done with MAGA, but I'm not voting. I'm definitely 204 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: not voting for people for the blue because they haven't 205 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: deconstructed that part. They haven't deconstructed that the left is 206 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: not I don't even like to use left and right anymore. 207 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 2: Like people that are against Trump. Here's the thing, y'all 208 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: caught on to it before we did, and so like, 209 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: how can how and so that's why I try and 210 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: like position to the people that are like, no, I'm 211 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: not getting down with the left. 212 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: There's really no other way to say that. 213 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: And I'm like, but they saw it, like they were 214 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: able to see it before we, so like, why are 215 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: we going to discount everything else that they said? 216 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: It's hard for me to know. 217 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: I don't have a blueprint because not everyone's doing it 218 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: the way that I'm doing it. Not everyone's having the 219 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: veil lifted the way that I have. Yeah, And so 220 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: for me, I was able to have conversations really early 221 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: on with queer people, with parents of children who are transgender, 222 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: and immigrants, Like I was talking to all these different 223 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: types of people in my car section in my DMS. 224 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: And I'm like, they're just normal people, you. 225 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: Know, like they're. 226 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: You know, they are who they are because that's who 227 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: they are, like not because of you know, when you're 228 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: in Christianity, you think, oh, something happened to them or 229 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: you know whatever, or. 230 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: And literally like that's what I thought. 231 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh go ahead, Well I was just going to say, 232 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: that's so interesting right that that you were fed the 233 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 4: idea that anyone who thought differently than you only thought 234 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 4: that because they'd had less of a good life. 235 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: There's so much judgment and ego in. 236 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: That you really underestimate this whole. I'm a chosen one 237 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: of God that does some f'd up stuff up here 238 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: because like, and I'll say this to Christians, because here's 239 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: the thing. I still I found a really great progressive church. 240 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: It's it's great. Like, I still I believe in a 241 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: higher power. I just I ain't down with the dogma. 242 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was four. 243 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: My oldest daughter is four. There is no way that 244 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: I could ever sit her down and tell her what 245 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: was said to me and to have her understand. 246 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: No, she's a baby. She wants to play make believe. 247 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: It's also really interesting to me, you know, doing my 248 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: my own work on the faith side. It's funny because 249 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: sometimes people you know, who come from your former former 250 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: world will be like, well, you you're like this because 251 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: you're you know, you're an activist and you love people 252 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: of color and you're queer and you're and I'm like, 253 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: I've been this way my whole life. Calmed down, I 254 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: actually do just love my neighbors, and in an interesting way, 255 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: I use all the the things I I find solace 256 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: in from different faith traditions and the study of those 257 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: spaces and studying theology as like a lens in instead 258 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: of a lens to exclude. And it's funny how many 259 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: evangelical people in particular will tell me that I am 260 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: the way I am because I have no relationship with God, 261 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: and I'm like, my spirituality is big, but it's also mine. 262 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: I don't need to advertise it to get you to 263 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: buy a product I'm selling on Instagram, Like, that's not 264 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: I don't use it as a brand. And I think 265 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: the brand, the identity, the ideology, the all of the 266 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: things that fit into like a that cult mentality that 267 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: makes it so dangerous to leave makes me, I don't 268 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: want to say sympathetic to it, but it makes me 269 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: understand how hard it is for people to get out. 270 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: I wonder two things, How how you want to try 271 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: to make amends to people that you know you hurt 272 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: even without having meant to, and how you want to 273 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: reach back into that space and try to help other 274 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: people know they get to come out. So I'm just 275 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: curious how you are navigating doing both of those things simultaneously. 276 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: So it's Funny you mentioned that, like I wish there 277 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: was an option where I could like upload to MAGA audience, 278 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: upload to non Maga audience, right, because it is it's 279 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: hard to like share my journey, share my perspective, but also. 280 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 3: Try and cater to everyone. 281 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: Well you can't cater to everyone. 282 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: I know, I know, but like the thing is is, 283 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 2: I started posting because I wanted to stop being depressed, 284 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: and my intuition was like, hey, try this, because I 285 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: was so against going to therapy or doing anything like that. 286 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: And so I did that, and then I realized, Okay, 287 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: I'm not for myself anymore. I'm posting for other people. 288 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 2: I'm posting to give them hope, and I'm giving hope 289 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: to the people that are still in MAGA. Like I 290 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: didn't even realize what I was doing when I did it, right, 291 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 2: It literally was just me trying to show up for 292 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: my kids better. And so aside from putting myself out 293 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: there and doing that, I am monetarily giving back. I 294 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 2: am meeting with the black candidates in Georgia to help 295 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: elevate them because I now have a platform. I now 296 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: have like across two platforms, like fifty thousand followers and 297 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 2: I want to figure out what I can do with 298 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: that right. 299 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: Well, and listen, that's meaningful. I gotta be honest because 300 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: there are there are women who will listen to you 301 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: about those candidates who won't listen to me. You know 302 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: that's not lost on me. Maybe when you say, do 303 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: you know these abortion bands are killing women? That women 304 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: are losing their fertility because they're having miss carriages and 305 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: doctors won't perform dncs and they're literally losing the ability 306 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: to ever have another baby, like do you? They might 307 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: not be willing to hear that from me, but they'll 308 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: hear it from you, And so I do want to 309 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: encourage like, yes, you said it. You're going to make mistakes, 310 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: You're not going to be perfect, But I want to 311 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: encourage you to keep trying and to keep being willing 312 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: to hear feedback and grow because that stuff matters. You know, 313 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: we've all got friends who are experiencing these things. Now, 314 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, we see it, and I know I mean 315 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: and you've talked about this. I know that the abortion issue, 316 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: for some reason, it's been made into this kind of 317 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: boogeyman on the right rather than just treat it as 318 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: a simple facet of healthcare. That's nobody's business. It's been 319 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: turned into an issue when for some reason, school shootings 320 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: and kids being star and all these other things, you know, 321 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: lack of food stamps, lack of community support don't get through. 322 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 3: But that does. 323 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: And if someone like you can help crack that facade, 324 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: it's going to be a really big deal. 325 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: I really do believe people are asking these questions, they're wondering, 326 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 2: they're questioning, they've seen they'll tilt down the rose colored 327 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: glasses every now and again, see the red flags, but 328 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 2: then want to put it right back up. 329 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: But that seed of doubt was planted. 330 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 2: And this is what I really try and impart on people, 331 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: is like, I really don't think it's not going to 332 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 2: be a fact. It's not going to be a statistic, 333 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: it's not going to be you're getting upset with them 334 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: or not getting upset with them, like they will only 335 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 2: hear the truth when they need to hear the truth, 336 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: like it will. The truth cannot be told, It could 337 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: only be realized, and it will only be realized when 338 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: someone's ready. But I truly do believe what people like 339 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: you have been doing for the last ten years has 340 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: been planting seeds of doubt has been you know, making 341 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: the red flags there and a parent, but the cognitive 342 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: dissonance has been too strong. But since now everyone like 343 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: what Trump is saying with this war and what they're 344 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: telling the troops. But honestly, I'm like, I'm so glad 345 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: I got out of this before because I can't imagine 346 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: trying to be a Christian trying to justify Oh, okay, 347 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: he's planning the armageddon like what. 348 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: It's crazy, it really is. And now a word from 349 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: our sponsors, Okay, can I ask you a question because 350 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,479 Speaker 1: that's a really big concept that stresses me out. But 351 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: you saying like, oh, I'm glad I'm out of this 352 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: while I'm watching him say these things because it's insane. 353 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: The concept behind the war is nuts when you hear 354 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: what they're saying to the troops, but also the way 355 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: they've gathered this raw, raw sentiment for him as like 356 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: a commander in chief. The ear incident, the supposed assassination attempt. 357 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: We all know cartilage doesn't grow back. How is that 358 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: being talked about in the world you came out of. 359 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: How like they didn't talk about that? Are they talking 360 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: about the war and all these crazy Armageddon talking points, 361 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: like is anything getting through? 362 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: Well? 363 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: For the last three weeks, all they talked about was 364 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: Nancy Gothrie. That was all anyone talked about. Anyone. All 365 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 2: they talked about was Like when I would see people 366 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: that supported MAGO over the last few weeks, hoping maybe 367 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: they'd be like, did you hear about the Epstein files? 368 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,239 Speaker 2: Now this Nancy Guthrie case, it's just so scary, like 369 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: what is going on? And I remember being like, it's working. 370 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: Looking at it from the outside. Does everything just feel 371 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: like a distraction tactic? Like y, does everything feel like 372 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: it's a cat toy to be like look over here 373 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: and don't pay attention. 374 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all that it is, one hundred percent. Like, Okay, 375 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: I've been meaning to tell you this because I want 376 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 2: to see your reaction. I learned about Project twenty twenty 377 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: five three months ago. 378 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: Oh boy, have you seen Project Esther? 379 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 3: Yeah? 380 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: It's really bad. It's really bad for us ladies. 381 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. 382 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: So when I say that, like people literally say like 383 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: you're lying, you're lying. 384 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 3: I'm like, why would I lie? 385 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: Now? 386 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: Like why would I lie about? 387 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: Right? Okay? So I have a question because that's insane 388 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: and I honestly don't know what to say about it. 389 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 3: I mean not I just it's I get it, like 390 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 3: I get it. 391 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd literally just hear a kamma in my head 392 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: being like, you're not hearing me different sets of information. So, okay, 393 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: you heard about Project twenty twenty five three. 394 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: Months ago and a comment on TikTok oh. 395 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: Boy, there was a big alarm bell, obviously for a 396 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: lot of us working working up to the twenty twenty 397 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: four election, especially because for me, I was like, guys, 398 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: they're not even hiding it, Like they printed their manifesto 399 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: like a school shooter, Like they straight up are like, 400 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: this is what I'm going to do, you guys and 401 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: your families, Like it's so crazy. So the information's not 402 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: breaking through, no, which then takes me to think, like 403 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: takes me backwards to think. For you know, you talked 404 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: about really wanting from here on out to be on 405 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: the side of civil rights, on the side of you know, 406 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: making amends for harm and actually doing good. Does anything 407 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: break through that wall? Does anything break into that evangelical 408 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: space for racial disparity or racial justice? 409 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: So I remember it was like ten years ago, and 410 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: this was when I left and I was dating this 411 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: black guy, a son of two Nigerian immigrants, and so 412 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 2: he like sort of educating me on things. And there 413 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: was this this KKK rally at Stone Mountain, Georgia, and 414 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: it was like this huge thing and it was on 415 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: the news, and I remember like making a post about 416 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 2: it on my Facebook being like, this is horrible. I 417 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: can't believe this is still happening. Blah blah blah. And 418 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: people in my life were calling me and messaging me 419 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: and be like, you need to take that down, like 420 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: you're repeating misinformation, like you the amount of white on 421 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: black crime is dis like, it's fake news, it's not real, 422 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: Like you're yeah, wow, yeah wow. 423 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: So not only is a lot of the actual news 424 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: not breaking through, but when something does, you get told 425 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: it's not real. 426 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 2: There's a whole sect of people within that support MAGA 427 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: that literally thinks. 428 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: That school shootings are fake, that everything is. 429 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: Everything's planned, and to like distract you and to harness 430 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: your energy, like it's. 431 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 3: It's scary to leave, to like. 432 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: Think that there are people that still think that way, right, 433 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: And I think the reason why I stopped paying attention 434 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: to all that stuff is because it started to seep 435 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: into me and being like, Okay, maybe it is all fakes. 436 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 3: Maybe it is all like. 437 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 2: This whole idea of like focusing on your family, this 438 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 2: traditional family unit, being a tradwife and all this like 439 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: don't don't turn the news on. That's just going to 440 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: cause anxiety and stress in your life and it's going 441 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 2: to creep into how you raise your kids. And your 442 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: kids should just be in this perfect bubble and not 443 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: hearing anything. 444 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: And right, because if you, as a woman, are informed, 445 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: you might start to change your mind about being unpaid 446 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: labor for the system that all of this plays into. 447 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: You might not like the fact that everything falls on 448 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: your shoulders and that you're supposed to be docile and 449 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: subservient and all the things. 450 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: I mean, there's literally people that are like, oh, that's 451 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: so weird. Glene Maxwell's in prison and no one else. 452 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's in prison. Christy GNOME's the only one who's 453 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: been fired. And that's part of it for me, right, 454 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: is like on my end of the information spectrum, sometimes 455 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,239 Speaker 1: I want to shake people and be like, do you 456 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: not understand that carrying water for a white supremacist patriarchy 457 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: will never benefit you? But I think but. 458 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 3: Those words are so triggering for them. I know. 459 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: I can't hear that. 460 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: I know, and this is so one thing I wanted 461 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: to when you were talking about giving back. So there's 462 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: this organization called Leaving Maga and it was a once 463 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: Trump supporter. He left, he woke up and he created 464 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: this organization. It was really great. It's honestly like a 465 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: I think once it gets large enough, it's going to 466 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: be a great place for people to like softly land 467 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: when they leave MAGA. But right now, there's it's just small. 468 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: There's just a very small amount of us. And I 469 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: remember asking him, like, what are your what are your 470 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 2: thoughts on the word cult. He's like, we really try 471 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: and stray away from that. And I get it. I 472 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: get why, because like, there's no I remember when I 473 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: first started thinking like it was a cult, and I 474 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 2: remember being like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. But now 475 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, it's cool, it's cool. I grew up 476 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 2: in fear based control and doctrination. Like I just now 477 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 2: can say all that, like it not trigger me in 478 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: any type of way. But like other people, they cannot 479 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 2: hear that, They cannot hear. 480 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: That well, And I think that's the hard thing can be. 481 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: The hard thing is when you know something, and when 482 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: you know the thing causes so much hurt. It's hard 483 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: to be patient with people who don't know yet because 484 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: rightfully so, you're like, how could you not know this? 485 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: How could you not be paying attention. 486 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: I can't imagine the ten years like I've had three months, 487 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, this is terrible. 488 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: People always say the only way out is through, but 489 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: like the only way you're going to get through is 490 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: if you figure out how to harness a little bit 491 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: of grace. 492 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 493 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: I keep on using the analogy that I'm a buffalo, 494 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: like I'm just going through the storm and running through 495 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: it instead of waiting it out, because that's yeah. 496 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 3: I feel like I've waited it out my whole life. 497 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you stop again, you might get stuck again. Yeah, 498 00:30:46,200 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: and now a word from our wonderful sponsors so you 499 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: can reflect back on your life. And then you've also 500 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: spoken about how this is going to be a lifelong process, 501 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: and you know that, I'm curious what you're most looking 502 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: forward to in the journey that you know is ahead. 503 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 3: The first word that came to my mind was peace. 504 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 3: Somehow I. 505 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: Feel with every fiber of my being, all the way 506 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: down to my pinky toes. The change is happening, Change 507 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: will happen. The hope that I feel in my soul 508 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: isn't for nothing. And the people that I've locked arms 509 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: with in this journey, they all feel that hope too, 510 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: despite it being like what the f is are we 511 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: going to wake up to today? But for some reason, 512 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: I feel so hopeful that this somehow turns around, that 513 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 2: people wake up, that the collective wake up, like something 514 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: in me was so desperate for change, and I believe 515 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: that that soul awakening will happen for everyone. And it's 516 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: not it's not your job to try and wake them up. 517 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: It's their own job. Your job is to. 518 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 3: If you have the capacity to do so. 519 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 2: Because I know so many people are like, I'm done 520 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: with MAGA, especially the I learned the black community is 521 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: like we're done, We're done. 522 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 3: After twenty twenty four. They were like, white people, it's you. 523 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: And that's what I'm realizing is and why so many 524 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: white people have reached out to me to help me 525 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: and all this is because the black community is like it, 526 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: we're not doing this anymore. 527 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you admitting that is important for other people 528 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: to hear because it's not It's not a reality that 529 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: means don't try. It's a reality that means I'm I'm 530 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: going to continue to try, and hopefully eventually you will 531 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: know you're a person who can trust me. And I 532 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: think that's the more elevated work. That's how we act 533 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: like adults and not like our dear toddlers. 534 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 535 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so aware that trust is earned for sure. 536 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: I mean, and I joke, I would be out on 537 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: no man's land for however long I needed to in 538 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: order to feel accepted, like I would rather have no 539 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: one then whatever I came from. 540 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: That's really powerful when you think about what's ahead in 541 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: your journey, because we're talking about big concepts right and 542 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: service and how to shift culture and how hopefully to 543 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: win elections so we can have policy that helps people 544 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: instead of hurts people. And then you've also got your life, 545 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: if your marriage, your children. I don't know if it's 546 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,239 Speaker 1: in the grand scheme or really granular at home, but 547 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: what feels like you're work in progress. 548 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 2: Right now, my soul. I'm told all the time, I 549 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 2: grew up the same way you did, and I saw 550 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 2: through it. 551 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 3: And noah da da dah. 552 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: And I'm like, that was your path and this is mine. 553 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 2: And I've accepted that my soul is a work in 554 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 2: progress in all of this because. 555 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 3: I don't I don't. 556 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 2: Ever want to get to a point where I'm like, 557 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: I'm good with what I'm done. I don't need to 558 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: learn anymore. I don't need to change anymore. I don't 559 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 2: need to adapt anymore. I don't need to reconsider anything anymore. 560 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 2: I'm not I will. 561 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 3: Never get to that. 562 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 2: I am committed to learning how to be better every 563 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 2: single day. 564 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's something I'm excited about. 565 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: Like, like I said, the hope that I have, Like 566 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: it's just this weird feeling of like, yes, we're in 567 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 2: a dumpster fire right now, it seems, but something in 568 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: me is like, hey, there's a really really pretty, lush 569 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: green pasture that you're gonna eventually meet to once you 570 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 2: stop walking on this rock hard rubble that you're currently on. 571 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: Like it's rough, it's uncomfortable, it's painful, but every now 572 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: and then again you're met with this overlook where you 573 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 2: see where you're going, and it's like just enough hope 574 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: that you need to keep on stepping on each painful 575 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 2: stone to get to where you can take your shoes 576 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: off and it be like the grounded floor that you 577 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: know you need, and like there's no darkness around. It's 578 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: completely lit up and you're not in this like terrible, 579 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 2: dark filled, painful journey of a forest. 580 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 3: And that's how I feel. It's like, I literally feel. 581 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 2: That's what I'm in right now, but I'm constantly being 582 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: given glimpses of where I'm going, and it's worth it. 583 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me that the way you frame it 584 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: is almost that you've taken the negativity from that drug 585 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: of an exclusionary faith, and your hope is that on 586 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: the other side of the journey, it's actual grace applied 587 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: for all people and all things. Yeah, I really hope 588 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: it continues to feel that way for you. 589 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 2: You know, I think it's the only way for me 590 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 2: to keep on going. Like, you know, I've talked to 591 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 2: my therapists all the time. What if I just stop. 592 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: What if I just never shared another video, what if 593 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: I deleted my account? What if I never agreed to 594 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: another interview or anything? And she's like, Okay, yeah, what 595 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: does happen? What happens? And I know too much of 596 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 2: what it means to live an anauthentic life, and so 597 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 2: I had to take the risk. 598 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 599 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: I mean you said earlier that you want to show 600 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: up better for your kids. Yeah, that that's your goal, 601 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: you know what, thinking about where you are today and 602 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: what's coming you know in a few years, What do 603 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: you hope your kids will come to understand about your journey? 604 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: How do you hope they have better childhoods because they're 605 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: not being trapped in that kind of indoctrination. 606 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 2: My children have a spark in them and a shine 607 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 2: so bright that I know if I stayed down on that, 608 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: they would be. 609 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: Dull mm hmm, like yeah, like you were. 610 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 3: And I can't I can't repeat that. You know. 611 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 2: My oldest sister who's on this journey with me, she 612 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 2: told me about a dream she had a month or 613 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 2: so ago, and it was every woman in our lineage 614 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: standing in a line this clapic. It ends with me 615 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 2: when my sister, it ends in this generation, and I'm 616 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 2: really thankful for that. 617 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think being a cycle breaker is a big deal, 618 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: and I think it's part of why we see this 619 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: really intense swing, you know, in parts of the world 620 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: to conservativism, and why you see the intense amount of 621 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: money like the right is spending on indoctrinating boys in 622 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: particular online. You know, you see that gen Z boys 623 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: are like they want women subservient, they think good girls 624 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: never initiate sex, like all these really toxic beliefs. And 625 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: I speak to the women in my life that are 626 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, my sort of intergenerational friends that are in 627 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: the generation between us and our parents, and they're like, man, 628 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: we've had one generation of pseudo equality for women, and 629 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: they are already spending billions of dollars to convince the 630 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: men to go back, Like, and we're not even all 631 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: the way there yet. But if we can, if in 632 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: each of our families, in each of our lives, we 633 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: can break that, we can say no, I'm not doing that, 634 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: we can have healthy relationships and balance between us. I 635 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: think it's a really I think it's a really big 636 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: big deal. And I think particularly in spaces like the 637 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: one that you are exiting, where the veneer of this 638 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: is good for everyone has really been polished for a 639 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: long time, you know, getting out of that and seeing 640 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: that that is not the case, and that on the 641 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: other side is like actual joyful partnerships and marriages and 642 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: families and lives and careers and anything. If you're choosing 643 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 1: rather than someone else telling, it's a big deal because 644 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: you're right. A lot of the women that came before 645 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: us didn't get that opportunity. They didn't get to choose anything. 646 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for today. This has been so special. I 647 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: really appreciate you. 648 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 3: I appreciated this as well. Thank you for the opportunity