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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is what's your problem? And

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Speaker 1: my guest today is John Mills. John is the CEO

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Speaker 1: and co founder of a nonprofit called watch Duty. John's

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Speaker 1: problem is this, how do you build an app to

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Speaker 1: warn people when they're in immediate danger from a natural disaster.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, this is sort of a problem that

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Speaker 1: I would have thought the government had solved already. And

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Speaker 1: of course there are government warning services, but as we've

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Speaker 1: seen in recent disasters fires in LA and floods in Texas,

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Speaker 1: those government systems can and do fail, and in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, John and his colleagues launched watch Duty to

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Speaker 1: fill the gap. At watch Duty, paid employees and volunteers

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Speaker 1: track public information like firefires, radio chatter, and they provide

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Speaker 1: near real time updates on the watch Duty app. So far,

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Speaker 1: Watch Duty has focused mainly on fires, but they just

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Speaker 1: rolled out coverage for floods as well. Watch Duty was

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Speaker 1: a key source of information for the LA fires in

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Speaker 1: early twenty twenty five, and today millions of people use

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Speaker 1: the app, and those users include, interestingly, a lot of

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Speaker 1: professional firefighters. There's a lot that's interesting about this story,

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Speaker 1: but as you'll hear in the interview, one question I

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Speaker 1: kept returning to is why wasn't the government able to

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Speaker 1: do this? How did watch Duty succeed where the government

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Speaker 1: had failed? John started Watch Duty after he moved to

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Speaker 1: Sonoma County in northern California. At that point, he had

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Speaker 1: already built and sold a few software companies, and he

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Speaker 1: told me he got interested in fire after having a

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Speaker 1: few close calls at his house in Sonoma.

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Speaker 2: A month after I bought this place in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: there was a couple acre fire that my one of

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Speaker 2: my neighbors about a quarter mile away lit unfortunately. And

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Speaker 2: I'm in my office here and I hear a helicopter

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Speaker 2: flying over which is normal, and then it keeps flying.

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Speaker 3: Around and I'm like, I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: And then I go outside look at it, and another

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Speaker 2: one shows up with a water bucket on the bottom.

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Speaker 3: That's when I realized I was in danger and something

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Speaker 3: was happening.

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Speaker 2: So I didn't smell anything, I didn't see anything, and

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Speaker 2: all I heard were helicopters flying overhead, and that is

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Speaker 2: how I was alerted to my first fire.

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Speaker 1: And did you have I don't know what are there

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Speaker 1: are there alerts where you live. I mean, you live

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Speaker 1: in what Sonoma County? You live in northern California. It's

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Speaker 1: not like you live in Alaska or something.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question.

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Speaker 2: And look, there are alerts everywhere, but as you have

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Speaker 2: probably seen from the news and the Palisades and Eaten.

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Speaker 3: Fires, the alerts are leave a lot to be desired.

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Speaker 2: And so those men and women are doing the best

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Speaker 2: they can, but the infrastructure that they run on and

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Speaker 2: their bureaucratic processes do not allow them to do what

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Speaker 2: the National Weather Service does when a tornado touches down.

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Speaker 2: When it touches down, they press the button that is it.

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Speaker 2: No one has to get called, no one passes go.

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Speaker 2: It is an event that is happening. Fire isn't treated

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Speaker 2: that way. And so what I've noticed is that like

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Speaker 2: you'll get alerted at some point if the fire keeps growing,

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Speaker 2: but they're in this habit of like, oh, it's not

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Speaker 2: that big, it'll get under control. And while they were right,

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Speaker 2: it's a disaster for the people who live right next

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Speaker 2: to them, right, So like that's a large scale problem.

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Speaker 2: If the fire is coming towards you, even if it's

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Speaker 2: a twenty acre fire, that can still change your life

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Speaker 2: or take.

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Speaker 1: It twenty acre fire meaning small. If it's the acre

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Speaker 1: you live on, it's a big deal.

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Speaker 3: To you, that's correct.

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Speaker 2: And if it's on the neighbor's acre coming into your acres,

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Speaker 2: you better believe you want to know about it. But

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Speaker 2: that's not the practice that they have unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: And so who do you think I'm going to make

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Speaker 1: an app? Like how do you get from there to

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Speaker 1: the app?

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Speaker 3: That fire was in November of twenty nineteen. I did nothing. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's not true. I didn't do nothing.

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Speaker 2: I started building sprinkler systems, I started parting my home,

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Speaker 2: and I started preparing so, like I realized, I got

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Speaker 2: myself into a mess. Didn't really understand much about this,

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Speaker 2: but I was learning, I was researching, I was talking

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Speaker 2: to people as understanding it. And then a fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: acre fire showed up from the dry lightning storm that

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Speaker 2: passed over northern California in twenty twenty. People remember this

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Speaker 2: as the Red Sky Day, and it looked like blade

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Speaker 2: Runner out there, and so I had to evacuate my

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Speaker 2: house for seven days, stated of friends in Fountain Grove

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Speaker 2: by the Way, who almost lost her house.

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Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: I already the whole thing, and I was watching from

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Speaker 2: across the hill, and I spent day and night listening

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Speaker 2: to fire surface radio chatter, on the internet, researching, learning,

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Speaker 2: watching fire cameras, and just trying to figure out what

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Speaker 2: is going on around here?

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Speaker 3: How do I get my bearing stretch. So that's what

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Speaker 3: really triggered me.

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Speaker 2: House was spared, thankfully, land was spared and ended a

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Speaker 2: quarter mile for my property, a different direction from the

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Speaker 2: other quarter mile fire that was away from me. And

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Speaker 2: that's what it really spurred me to start investigating. And

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Speaker 2: so I joined my firewives and fire safe community groups.

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Speaker 2: I went on ride along with fire chiefs man. After

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Speaker 2: talking to chiefs, you realize that like every Silicon Valley

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Speaker 2: techie who shows up is like hate chief if you

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Speaker 2: thought about drones, and they just rolled their eyes like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, yeah I have a drone. I got

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Speaker 2: it right, And so yes, I'm in there chatting with

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Speaker 2: them and they were talking about their new nine one

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Speaker 2: one dispatch and they're like, oh, we can get text

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Speaker 2: messages now, and I'm like that's super cool, thank god,

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Speaker 2: it's about time. And I asked them, I was like,

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Speaker 2: what about photos, and they're like, no, we can't do that.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what do you mean you don't get a

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Speaker 2: photo literally just text a photo? Yeah, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: Like how did you even buy this? They're like, look,

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Speaker 2: we're actually kind of bomb, but like we spent a

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Speaker 2: lot of money. It took five to get it, and

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Speaker 2: once it rolled out, it didn't have what we needed.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just like, we are all in danger here,

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Speaker 2: like I need to help.

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Speaker 3: And that's when it hit me.

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Speaker 2: I realized that they weren't going to be able to

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Speaker 2: solve this problem. I realized who was It was the

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Speaker 2: same radio operators that I listened to during my fires

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Speaker 2: who I was going to band together, build an app,

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Speaker 2: and build a distributed department of emergency management.

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Speaker 3: And that's how it all came to fruition.

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Speaker 1: So when you say radio operators, like who are these people?

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Speaker 1: Who are the people you're banding together with?

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Speaker 2: So when I went through my second fire, you listen

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Speaker 2: to the radios yourself, the fire service radio.

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Speaker 3: So I have a radio here at.

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Speaker 2: My desk, but you can also hear them online on

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Speaker 2: like broadcastify dot com for example, and so people broadcast

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Speaker 2: fire service radio up into the internet so we can

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Speaker 2: all hear it there are people who live in these

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Speaker 2: areas my area, reading norical strange places that are constantly

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Speaker 2: getting burned down. They had realized the same thing I

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Speaker 2: had realized. They only realized it before me, that they

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Speaker 2: were their answer for their community. And so they started

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Speaker 2: staying up twenty four hours a day during those fires

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Speaker 2: that were happening, and they started to broadcast what they

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Speaker 2: were hearing to their.

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Speaker 3: Users on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Some of them had groups with seventy one hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: users on Twitter.

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Speaker 3: This is where everybody went.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to be sure that I'm clear.

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Speaker 1: So these are just people who it's not their job,

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Speaker 1: they're not getting paid, and what they're doing is sitting

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Speaker 1: there listening to firemen on the radio, firemen on their

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Speaker 1: walkie talkies. And these people know how to understand what

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Speaker 1: they're saying, and they're just filtering that information and sharing

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Speaker 1: it on Facebook or Twitter. And that is this sort

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Speaker 1: is that bottom up emergency management system.

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Speaker 3: That's what's happening. It is that analog in that symbol.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is wild. Okay, So these are your people?

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Speaker 1: So you now, you you what are you going to do?

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Speaker 1: You got your people, you got your what is your idea?

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Speaker 2: Well, the idea is that these these humans men and

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Speaker 2: women who do this are the key. They have been

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Speaker 2: distributed across the West, doing this on their own, on

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Speaker 2: their own volition, to be of service. Really, and so

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Speaker 2: it hit me like a ton of bricks. There're sometimes

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Speaker 2: you see something that you can't not see again or unsee.

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Speaker 2: And that's when I was like, oh my god, if

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Speaker 2: I can convince those people that joined me and we

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Speaker 2: build our own emurgency, youre learning product and app, we

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Speaker 2: can change the world.

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Speaker 3: We know.

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Speaker 1: No, it did work. It is working. I mean was

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Speaker 1: there what were there things that went wrong in the middle? Like,

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Speaker 1: once you have the big realization, is it smooth? Are

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Speaker 1: there things you still have to figure out?

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Speaker 2: I mean we're still figuring things out. But the implementation

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Speaker 2: was not very hard. My background is an engineering and

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Speaker 2: software that.

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Speaker 3: Was easy to build. I built the app in eighty days.

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Speaker 2: I wrote most of the code myself with a bunch

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Speaker 2: of other volunteers because I was Lloyd at the time,

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Speaker 2: in between companies, just selling my last one, and so

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Speaker 2: I said, this is my time in life.

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Speaker 3: To provide value and have impact here.

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Speaker 2: And so the next challenge though, was actually convincing the

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Speaker 2: radio operators that I'm not some Silicon Valley tech bro

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Speaker 2: trying to capitalize on their disaster.

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Speaker 1: So you have to convince them. I mean. The interesting

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Speaker 1: one to me, once you start building this thing and

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Speaker 1: it starts to work, is what do uh, what do

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Speaker 1: fire departments think? What do you know government? You know,

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Speaker 1: fire departments, government organizations have jobs called public information officer, right,

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Speaker 1: They have people whose job is getting information to the

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Speaker 1: public in to be sympathetic to those people, like they

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Speaker 1: want to make sure that the information is correct, that

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Speaker 1: people aren't yelling fire in a crowded theater, you know,

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Speaker 1: so to speak right, And so I'll use the analogy

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Speaker 1: all the time. I thought I was so clever. I

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Speaker 1: just came to the I mean this business, and so

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Speaker 1: I don't know what are those interactions like when they

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Speaker 1: find out there's some random guy building an app that

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Speaker 1: a bunch of random guys on the internet are using

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Speaker 1: to provide information respectfully.

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Speaker 2: So what I was told by the people who were

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Speaker 2: talking to me who are don't do this. We'll figure

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Speaker 2: it out, et cetera, et cetera. We got this covered

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Speaker 2: and it was just a bunch of hoopla.

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Speaker 3: They didn't want my help obviously told.

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Speaker 1: By fire departments essentially, but by the fire departments.

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Speaker 2: The fire departments that I was working with loved what

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Speaker 2: I was doing, like this makes a lot telling you

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Speaker 2: not to do it. The emergency management people that I

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Speaker 2: was I was interacting with, Yeah, so they told me

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Speaker 2: not to do this. I did it in eighty days.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, the app launches August eleventh, twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 2: Seven days later, there was a pretty big fire in

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Speaker 2: Lower Lake County through a mobile home park and it

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Speaker 2: moved very fast.

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Speaker 3: It was wind driven.

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Speaker 2: It burned this mobile home park down, unfortunately. And Watch

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Speaker 2: Duty was there and we were very popular a ready

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Speaker 2: because here was the key. Those radio operators already had

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Speaker 2: tens of thousands of followers. Combined, they had hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousands of followers. Now in Silicon Valley, you'd call this

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Speaker 2: influencer marketing, but I refrained from using that term. That's

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Speaker 2: that these are my friends, volunteers now employees, right, and

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Speaker 2: so that's how we got it in everyone's hands. So

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Speaker 2: this fire lit off all of a sudden.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's using wash Judy.

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Speaker 2: We're putting out intelligence no one had seen, and it

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Speaker 2: was everywhere overnight.

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Speaker 3: Well, that upsets.

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Speaker 2: Emergency managers and certain fire officials who were much higher up.

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Speaker 3: In the ranks.

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Speaker 2: We got on a phone call where I had a

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Speaker 2: now retired battalion chief have his face right next to

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Speaker 2: the camera on zoom just screaming at me.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was wild.

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Speaker 1: What was he saying? What was he screaming?

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Speaker 2: We've gotten in the way, We're putting people's lives at risk.

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Speaker 2: And then the sad part, which is a real bummer,

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Speaker 2: and I will say publicly because they do it all

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Speaker 2: the time, is that there's something called an f MAG grant.

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Speaker 2: It's an emergency grant for funding from either state or

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Speaker 2: the FED. And so since we published that the forward

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Speaker 2: progress of the fire had been stopped, which is true

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Speaker 2: and is foiable because it came across the radio that

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Speaker 2: the people up above them a caloes already had watched

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Speaker 2: duty and they didn't hear the radio traffic, but they

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Speaker 2: saw it and watch duty and they blocked the grant.

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Speaker 1: So basically, this fire department didn't get money that they

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Speaker 1: would have gotten because you showed that the fire had stopped,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't want people.

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Speaker 2: To correct, which is it's a bummer for many reasons.

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Speaker 2: The first thing is that forward progress stopped just means

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Speaker 2: the fire isn't spreading. It doesn't mean that the interior

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Speaker 2: is not lighting on fire and you're losing houses. So

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Speaker 2: forward progress stopped is hey, it's not going to move,

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Speaker 2: We'll be okay. You could still lose a house. It's

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Speaker 2: still a disaster. So that's kind of a bummer. The

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Speaker 2: reality is, though, like we told the truth. That's what happened,

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Speaker 2: and so we're getting told that we're doing something wrong,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, but is the truth wrong? And that's

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Speaker 2: a really hard thing to grapple with. Like, we knew

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Speaker 2: it was the right thing to do morally and ethically,

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Speaker 2: but I feel bad that they didn't get their grant

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Speaker 2: because it might have had relief for that area. And

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Speaker 2: so man, it's really twisted and torn internally. But we

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Speaker 2: knew was the right thing to do, we kept doing it.

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Speaker 1: There's an idea here that's really interesting to me. Like,

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Speaker 1: California is not a resource starved state. It's a rich

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Speaker 1: state that has high taxes and is the home of

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. Is the greatest source of technology in the

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Speaker 1: history of the world. Why why didn't anybody do this before?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't the government do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question, one that I ask myself

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Speaker 3: all the time.

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Speaker 2: It's frustrating that we do pay taxes and yet our

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Speaker 2: roads are falling apart. Teachers are paying for pencils, firefighters

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Speaker 2: can't get engines. This is a bummer, right. This is

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Speaker 2: like public infrastructure that needs to exist. And so I

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Speaker 2: think there's something interesting we can look at as a

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Speaker 2: good role model for us and what we do. And

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Speaker 2: it actually comes from the alert and warning industry, but

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Speaker 2: it comes from tornadoes. So the tornado warning system is

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Speaker 2: a role model for watch duty.

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Speaker 3: And let me explain why.

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Speaker 1: And this is public just to be clear, this is

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Speaker 1: a government system. Yep. Okay, yep.

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Speaker 2: And we have built great things before in this country

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Speaker 2: and we will build them again. And so this has

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Speaker 2: been around for a very long time. After the Second

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Speaker 2: World War, we had all these air raid sirens that

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Speaker 2: are like, what are we going to do with these

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Speaker 2: damn things we put up everywhere? Well, NWS is like,

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Speaker 2: I know what we can National.

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Speaker 3: Web use these for correct Yes, I know what we

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Speaker 3: can do with these.

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Speaker 2: We can use these for alert and warning for tornadoes.

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Speaker 2: So brilliantly what they did is they set up. Similarly,

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Speaker 2: a distributed network of spotters, their weather spotters. When those

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Speaker 2: people who are anointed by the NWS are near a

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Speaker 2: tornado that touches down and actually now we can actually

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Speaker 2: almost know from space from satellites if we can get

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Speaker 2: up anyway.

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Speaker 3: Besides the point, that's a history lesson.

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Speaker 2: Someone will call the NWS office who's a spotter, and say,

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Speaker 2: tornado touchdown in my backfield.

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Speaker 3: It's about this Latin long well.

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Speaker 2: They hang up the phone and they press the button,

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Speaker 2: do not pass go, do not wake up the judge,

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Speaker 2: the supervisors. It is happening. We know what's happening, and

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Speaker 2: I can see it.

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Speaker 1: Sirens go off all around where that tornado is, and

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Speaker 1: everybody knows go to the basement.

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Speaker 3: Actually, it's funny what they do. You know what they do?

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Speaker 1: Take a guess, get in their car and go chase

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Speaker 1: after it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, some people do that, but the average human, good

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Speaker 2: point average human goes on their front porch.

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Speaker 3: And looks out. We all want to know where to

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Speaker 3: is right.

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Speaker 2: I love the social science aer I'm doing this stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's so fascinating.

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Speaker 3: I would do the same thing.

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Speaker 2: And apparently they say the sky turns like a greenish

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Speaker 2: color where they know it's close.

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Speaker 1: So why don't we have that for fire? So we

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Speaker 1: did it for that. Like what's the problem?

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Speaker 2: You tell me? I do not know, but anyway, I'll

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Speaker 2: potificate with you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so there's some interesting idea to me about

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Speaker 1: like bottom up versus top down? Right? When I think

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Speaker 1: about you know, whoever, when I think about the kinds

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Speaker 1: of software people sell to the government, right, it's I

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Speaker 1: picture this very old fashioned system, you know, like the

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Speaker 1: military contractors of the fifties or something, where they like

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Speaker 1: come in and they pitch some very expensive thing, and

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Speaker 1: of course none of it's going to be off the shelf.

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Speaker 1: They're going to build it all from scratch, and it's

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Speaker 1: going to take a long time, and it's not going

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Speaker 1: to be that good. Right. And the thing that's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me about the thing that you built is how

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Speaker 1: bottom up it is, right, It's it is so profoundly

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Speaker 1: bottom up rather than top down. And it seems like

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Speaker 1: a government is not set up to build bottom up systems.

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Speaker 2: There's something that you hit on right there that's actually

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Speaker 2: the problem. Software will not save the government. We need

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Speaker 2: bureaucratic process change.

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Speaker 3: So what I mean.

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Speaker 2: By this it's very simply plug because I now have

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Speaker 2: be who are competing with me.

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Speaker 3: They think they're a competitor.

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Speaker 2: Let's put it that way, because they're going to go

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Speaker 2: build a software product and give it to the government.

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Speaker 2: But the government, especially in these in fire has a

355
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Speaker 2: bureaucratic process back and forth, works with the sheriff. The

356
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Speaker 2: sheriff actually does the alert and warning, not the fire service.

357
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Speaker 2: Is a game a telephone the process has broken. It's

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Speaker 2: not a weather spot or who makes a phone call

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Speaker 2: then the unilatter repress the button. There's too many parties

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Speaker 2: at play, and that's where the delay comes in. And

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Speaker 2: that is why software alone will not solve the problem.

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Speaker 1: Still to come on the show, John and I talk

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Speaker 1: about the LA Fires of twenty twenty five. We talk

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Speaker 1: about floods, were watch duty is today and more. Okay,

365
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Speaker 1: let's talk about the LA Fires of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about what it meant for watch do.

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Speaker 3: I mean?

368
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Speaker 2: Look, here's here's the way I try and talk about

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Speaker 2: this and look at it. So leaving LA behind for

370
00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:21,516
Speaker 2: two seconds, if you look at northern California, even more

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Speaker 2: farther north than I am, because I'm in Sonoma, county.

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Speaker 2: These areas, including mine, have been ravaged by fire over

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Speaker 2: and over and over again. And so if you go

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Speaker 2: to like Klamath River Area, Sisku and Delnore counties, we

375
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Speaker 2: have more subscribers than there are citizens in those counties.

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Speaker 2: That is how deeply penetrated we are in these areas.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? People subscribe on two phones. They

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Speaker 1: subscribe for the county over. I know, what does that mean?

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Speaker 3: The county over? That's exactly right.

380
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Speaker 1: So everybody has it. Everybody has it the way everybody

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Speaker 1: has correct.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's insane, right, it's wild.

383
00:18:56,476 --> 00:18:59,196
Speaker 2: And so we've already been like the lifeline for these

384
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Speaker 2: these communities, including my own.

385
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Speaker 3: Now let's bring La back into the situation.

386
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Speaker 2: We never thought this would happen, never wanted this to happen,

387
00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:10,716
Speaker 2: right like we were there to meet the moment.

388
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Speaker 3: But oh my goodness.

389
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Speaker 2: You know, sixteen thousand structures destroyed, thirty two people killed.

390
00:19:15,636 --> 00:19:19,316
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a colossal calamity of errors. And frankly,

391
00:19:19,876 --> 00:19:21,916
Speaker 2: it was a fire. It was a hurricane with a

392
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Speaker 2: fire inside. So this is not me throwing shade at

393
00:19:24,996 --> 00:19:28,876
Speaker 2: you know, the firefighters. I mean, it's an unstoppable force.

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Speaker 1: When you say hurricane because it was so because the

395
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Speaker 1: winds were so high and that was so bad.

396
00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:36,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just it just runs and runs and runs,

397
00:19:36,596 --> 00:19:40,916
Speaker 2: and you cannot stop fires like that. So we were

398
00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:44,516
Speaker 2: built for scale. We knew i'd say three or four

399
00:19:44,596 --> 00:19:47,276
Speaker 2: days in advance that a PDS was coming as what

400
00:19:47,316 --> 00:19:49,116
Speaker 2: they call it particularly a dangerous situation.

401
00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:51,756
Speaker 3: It's a level of red flag above red flag.

402
00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:56,716
Speaker 2: It means high winds, dry fuels, low well to humidity,

403
00:19:57,076 --> 00:19:59,836
Speaker 2: everything is ripe for something real bad to happen. So

404
00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:03,876
Speaker 2: we staffed up, we got everyone ready, and then sure enough,

405
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Speaker 2: ten thirty in the morning on the seventh, all hell

406
00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:11,476
Speaker 2: broke loose in including our systems, which didn't crash, but

407
00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:14,396
Speaker 2: I mean we were sleeping in shifts. I mean we

408
00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:17,076
Speaker 2: were doing hundreds of thousands of new downloads an hour.

409
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Speaker 2: We had one quarter of La download watch duty in

410
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Speaker 2: the first week. I mean it exploded overnight, right, We

411
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Speaker 2: more than doubled.

412
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Speaker 3: Our user count.

413
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Speaker 2: And this is this time four engineers who kept this

414
00:20:29,076 --> 00:20:31,796
Speaker 2: thing up doing one hundred thousand requests a second, which

415
00:20:31,836 --> 00:20:35,076
Speaker 2: is like Wikipedia scale, with four duds in their basements

416
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Speaker 2: trying to door dash food to each other and doing

417
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Speaker 2: whatever we can do to keep this thing up, because,

418
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Speaker 2: as you may have seen, the alert and warning systems crashed.

419
00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:47,596
Speaker 2: They sent false alerts three different times. Parts of the

420
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Speaker 2: GIS systems that they used crashed, cal fire systems crashed.

421
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Speaker 2: Everybody turned to us, and it was I didn't sleep right.

422
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Speaker 3: For a month, I think after that.

423
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Speaker 1: So there's this photo that I saw you mentioned somewhere,

424
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Speaker 1: so I looked it up, and it is a compelling photo.

425
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Speaker 1: There's a photo not of a fire, but of the

426
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Speaker 1: LA Emergency Operations Center, right, which is like you know,

427
00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:16,836
Speaker 1: command Central, and they have like all these different screens,

428
00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:19,316
Speaker 1: and in the giant screen in the middle of the

429
00:21:19,316 --> 00:21:23,716
Speaker 1: wall in this big room of this government organization is

430
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Speaker 1: watch Duty. Is your app during the LA fires? What

431
00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:29,956
Speaker 1: do you make of that?

432
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Speaker 2: Well, I was just speaking to Congress about this a

433
00:21:35,236 --> 00:21:37,716
Speaker 2: couple months ago, and I told them that, like, this

434
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Speaker 2: is not a story of success.

435
00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:40,476
Speaker 3: This is a story of failure.

436
00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:45,636
Speaker 2: How the hell did a couple misfit hackers had radio

437
00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:49,196
Speaker 2: operators built something so big and so critical that it

438
00:21:49,236 --> 00:21:52,316
Speaker 2: was used by the people who are fighting and risking

439
00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:55,716
Speaker 2: their lives for us, that they rely on our infrastructure.

440
00:21:55,956 --> 00:21:58,196
Speaker 3: I'm upset. We can do better.

441
00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:01,356
Speaker 1: I mean, I would imagine they had spent a tremendous

442
00:22:01,356 --> 00:22:04,396
Speaker 1: amount of money on some other system that worked less well,

443
00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:06,636
Speaker 1: Like I don't know that, but is that the case?

444
00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:09,516
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, the case.

445
00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:12,676
Speaker 2: And it's not because the emergency managers don't care. It's

446
00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:14,316
Speaker 2: it's not that like, no, it's nothing that.

447
00:22:14,356 --> 00:22:17,196
Speaker 1: Don't I don't really believe in villains in that way,

448
00:22:17,196 --> 00:22:21,356
Speaker 1: but I like systemic failures are more interesting to me,

449
00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:24,676
Speaker 1: frankly than individual villains anyway, So like, what is the

450
00:22:24,716 --> 00:22:25,996
Speaker 1: systemic failure here?

451
00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:28,436
Speaker 3: This is an interesting question.

452
00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:30,556
Speaker 2: So I have a couple of theorists on this one

453
00:22:30,676 --> 00:22:33,356
Speaker 2: being it's a very simple one and it's about money.

454
00:22:33,876 --> 00:22:37,716
Speaker 2: There is not much money in this industry, so if

455
00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:40,916
Speaker 2: there was more money, it would drive more innovation. And

456
00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:42,956
Speaker 2: again I am running a nonprofit here, I'm not a

457
00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:46,516
Speaker 2: pure bred capitalist. My point is is like people who

458
00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:49,836
Speaker 2: are trying to go build great things in Silicon Valley

459
00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:53,436
Speaker 2: are oftentimes money oriented. So they're much more likely to

460
00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:56,156
Speaker 2: go work at Androl, which can sell to the DoD

461
00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:59,996
Speaker 2: now the DOW, than they are selling to firefighters who

462
00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:02,956
Speaker 2: can barely afford a fire engine. Right, So like it's

463
00:23:02,956 --> 00:23:05,556
Speaker 2: just basic capitalism. I don't like what I believe, but

464
00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:07,236
Speaker 2: like this is what I've seen.

465
00:23:07,236 --> 00:23:11,156
Speaker 1: Maybe, but like there are lots of witch software products.

466
00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:15,716
Speaker 1: I mean, I I go back to this idea of

467
00:23:15,796 --> 00:23:18,076
Speaker 1: bottom up versus top down, Right, Like the thing you

468
00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:21,556
Speaker 1: have built is you didn't start with the idea that

469
00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:24,236
Speaker 1: we have to get the information from the fire department

470
00:23:24,396 --> 00:23:27,716
Speaker 1: or from the government, right. You started with the idea of, like,

471
00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:31,796
Speaker 1: there are people out there right now, sitting in random

472
00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:36,276
Speaker 1: rooms in random places, listening, gathering that information already, and

473
00:23:36,316 --> 00:23:39,036
Speaker 1: what we need to do is reliably aggregate it. We

474
00:23:39,076 --> 00:23:42,476
Speaker 1: need to take this dispersed information and aggregate it from

475
00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:45,876
Speaker 1: the bottom up. And that that to me seems like

476
00:23:46,396 --> 00:23:48,836
Speaker 1: the big exciting idea you have and why the thing

477
00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:50,316
Speaker 1: you built works.

478
00:23:51,276 --> 00:23:53,436
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that is part of it. But there's a misnomer

479
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:57,396
Speaker 2: on there. The data comes from the government, right, it.

480
00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:01,556
Speaker 1: Comes from it comes from individual people who are employed

481
00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:03,676
Speaker 1: by the government. Right, it comes from firefighters who are

482
00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:06,316
Speaker 1: talking to each asty. But it doesn't it doesn't have

483
00:24:06,396 --> 00:24:09,876
Speaker 1: to get aggregated up to some public information official who

484
00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:12,236
Speaker 1: then has to ask his boss if he can, you know,

485
00:24:12,596 --> 00:24:14,916
Speaker 1: send the press release or whatever it is, right.

486
00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:18,836
Speaker 2: Right, So we should definitely clarify here for our conversation

487
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:21,476
Speaker 2: and for the readers what the government means, right, because

488
00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:24,556
Speaker 2: there's Little G and Big G. Little G are the

489
00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:27,276
Speaker 2: men and women on the ground fighting for their freaking

490
00:24:27,356 --> 00:24:31,356
Speaker 2: lives and fighting for hours. Yeah, Big G is very faceless,

491
00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:34,476
Speaker 2: and Big G is usually getting software sold to them

492
00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:37,116
Speaker 2: top down to your point, and they're the ones often

493
00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:38,036
Speaker 2: buying this stuff.

494
00:24:38,596 --> 00:24:42,516
Speaker 1: Let's talk about let's talk about how watch Duty works. Now.

495
00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:46,916
Speaker 1: I downloaded the app, so can you sort of just

496
00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:48,996
Speaker 1: talk me through it, Like, let's pick a fire and

497
00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:52,356
Speaker 1: tell me, tell me how it works. You choose, like

498
00:24:52,396 --> 00:24:54,196
Speaker 1: do you have you must have the app hand, you know.

499
00:24:55,356 --> 00:24:57,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see what's actively happening right now. You're picking

500
00:24:57,796 --> 00:25:00,116
Speaker 2: a day that we never know what's happening. Yeah, luckily,

501
00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:01,196
Speaker 2: knock on wood.

502
00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:01,876
Speaker 3: Right now it's a.

503
00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:04,596
Speaker 2: Little bit quiet, so we're going to pick. There's a

504
00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:09,716
Speaker 2: fire that is burning up here in Solano County called

505
00:25:09,716 --> 00:25:11,996
Speaker 2: the Putah Fire. It's very strange name.

506
00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:14,556
Speaker 1: Has an eight la to our listeners who speak Spanish,

507
00:25:14,636 --> 00:25:19,236
Speaker 1: it has an aged so it's not what you yes, okay, goodness,

508
00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:22,396
Speaker 1: I clicked on it and it tells me, so tell

509
00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:24,476
Speaker 1: me what I'm looking at says, it says, what is

510
00:25:24,516 --> 00:25:27,716
Speaker 1: this is the address or something twenty five five hundred

511
00:25:27,796 --> 00:25:31,916
Speaker 1: block of CAA one eighth one. It's a highway. It's

512
00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:35,916
Speaker 1: just telling me the address of where it started California, Okay.

513
00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:37,556
Speaker 2: And you can see the pin drop that little flam

514
00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:40,396
Speaker 2: icon is where the fire started. That's not where it's

515
00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:41,156
Speaker 2: got and.

516
00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:44,116
Speaker 1: There's like a red boundary around it. Is that where

517
00:25:44,116 --> 00:25:46,796
Speaker 1: the fire is burning? What is that? Yeah?

518
00:25:46,796 --> 00:25:49,876
Speaker 3: That is where the fire is burned. Fires are only mapped.

519
00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 2: Once or twice a day, depending In California, we have

520
00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:57,156
Speaker 2: an overflight called the Fire's Program that flies with people

521
00:25:57,196 --> 00:26:00,276
Speaker 2: inside with an infrared camera, so that gets more real time,

522
00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:02,996
Speaker 2: but oftentimes you're not going to get a fire perimeter

523
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:05,756
Speaker 2: for a day or days, depending on how remote your

524
00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:06,436
Speaker 2: area is.

525
00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 1: Frankly, so tell me what else this tells me about

526
00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:10,276
Speaker 1: the fire?

527
00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:13,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what's what?

528
00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:13,836
Speaker 1: Really?

529
00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:16,196
Speaker 3: The magic is in the reporting.

530
00:26:16,356 --> 00:26:19,196
Speaker 2: So if you look on the bottom of that page,

531
00:26:19,196 --> 00:26:21,476
Speaker 2: you see what would we referred to as a news

532
00:26:21,476 --> 00:26:23,556
Speaker 2: feed if we were a social media site, which we're not,

533
00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:26,596
Speaker 2: but you can see a timeline of events. So if

534
00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:28,636
Speaker 2: you scroll all the way down to the bottom, you'll

535
00:26:28,636 --> 00:26:34,956
Speaker 2: see the first ignition, fire reported here, Engines, dispatched, resources are.

536
00:26:34,836 --> 00:26:36,076
Speaker 3: Coming, et cetera, et cetera.

537
00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:38,516
Speaker 2: So in your mind's eye, what happens if you're a

538
00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:43,036
Speaker 2: user who lives here. You hear the tactics. More engines

539
00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:46,556
Speaker 2: are coming, all call is happening, tankers are coming. You're like,

540
00:26:46,596 --> 00:26:48,476
Speaker 2: oh no, this is getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

541
00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:51,196
Speaker 2: And so you start to like hear the storyline.

542
00:26:51,316 --> 00:26:53,556
Speaker 1: And presumably with the app I've set up to have

543
00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:56,196
Speaker 1: an alert if there is a fire near my house

544
00:26:56,916 --> 00:26:58,076
Speaker 1: is the first thing that happens.

545
00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:02,436
Speaker 2: So it notifies you, right, And so the story is

546
00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:03,516
Speaker 2: where the magic is.

547
00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:08,196
Speaker 1: There's a message it looks like so there's oh, it

548
00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 1: started as a prescription I burn YEP, and then that

549
00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:16,236
Speaker 1: part was an automated message five days ago, and then

550
00:27:16,276 --> 00:27:20,236
Speaker 1: one day ago there's a message from Evan Jacob's regional captain.

551
00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:22,556
Speaker 1: Does that mean they are on your staff or they're

552
00:27:22,556 --> 00:27:24,316
Speaker 1: a volunteer? What is regional captain mean?

553
00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:27,076
Speaker 2: He's paid staff. He's actually training to be a tanker

554
00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:28,516
Speaker 2: pilot right now in Montana.

555
00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:32,956
Speaker 1: I love that it says evacuation warnings have been requested

556
00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:35,476
Speaker 1: for Golden Bear estates and Bobcat Ranch. The fire is

557
00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:37,716
Speaker 1: five to six acres burning in the grass and currently

558
00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:39,956
Speaker 1: hung up on a ridge. Highway twenty eight has been

559
00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,596
Speaker 1: requested to be closed between Pleasant Valley Road and Canyon

560
00:27:42,636 --> 00:27:45,956
Speaker 1: Creek Road per incident Command. So he's telling you that

561
00:27:46,476 --> 00:27:48,836
Speaker 1: not that there's an evacuation warning, but that people are

562
00:27:48,876 --> 00:27:51,996
Speaker 1: talking about an evacuation warning. So you're getting the news,

563
00:27:52,276 --> 00:27:55,796
Speaker 1: you're learning about this ahead of time. This is you

564
00:27:55,876 --> 00:27:57,316
Speaker 1: got it. Yeah, so go on.

565
00:27:57,396 --> 00:27:58,636
Speaker 3: So these are all the tactics.

566
00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:00,956
Speaker 2: These are all the tactics that they're that they're going

567
00:28:01,036 --> 00:28:04,716
Speaker 2: through at the time. And so this story is what

568
00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:08,356
Speaker 2: helps you paint a mental model right of what's going on.

569
00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:11,156
Speaker 2: So let's use the other example really quickly for a

570
00:28:11,196 --> 00:28:14,596
Speaker 2: good one. So my favorite is when a fire pops off,

571
00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:16,436
Speaker 2: people see it, they look on their phone, they're like, oh, okay,

572
00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:17,076
Speaker 2: it's not near me.

573
00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:19,276
Speaker 3: Engines are coming, And the next thing you.

574
00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:22,036
Speaker 2: Know, they're like forward progress has been stopped and they

575
00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:23,356
Speaker 2: could just turn their mind off again.

576
00:28:23,396 --> 00:28:25,116
Speaker 3: They're like, you know what, it's okay.

577
00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:29,676
Speaker 2: And so the de escalation story is also really important

578
00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:33,676
Speaker 2: that the government doesn't do very well. So sometimes like

579
00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,276
Speaker 2: if you don't close the loop people are still panicking.

580
00:28:37,396 --> 00:28:38,436
Speaker 1: Huh, you gotta close.

581
00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:40,876
Speaker 2: So if they did get an alert, which they often don't,

582
00:28:41,236 --> 00:28:43,676
Speaker 2: then they don't get one telling them it's okay until

583
00:28:43,836 --> 00:28:44,756
Speaker 2: much much later.

584
00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:47,756
Speaker 3: So there adrenaline is up. They're still paranoid.

585
00:28:48,356 --> 00:28:51,836
Speaker 2: Giving people the storyline allows them to prepare and think

586
00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:53,916
Speaker 2: about what's going on. And that is one of the

587
00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:58,196
Speaker 2: biggest like trauma reducing things in our app that everyone

588
00:28:58,236 --> 00:28:59,916
Speaker 2: tells me they love more than anything else.

589
00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:02,716
Speaker 1: Is it's over. Is a message that says it's over.

590
00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:06,676
Speaker 2: Correct, You're gonna be okay, turn your brain off, go

591
00:29:06,796 --> 00:29:07,396
Speaker 2: back to lunch.

592
00:29:08,276 --> 00:29:12,036
Speaker 1: Is there a real of call it false positives? I mean,

593
00:29:12,036 --> 00:29:16,636
Speaker 1: if I see somebody, right, evacuation warnings have been requested, Like,

594
00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:19,716
Speaker 1: it's kind of complicated, right, what I hear in that

595
00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,956
Speaker 1: is evacuation warnings. But maybe it was requested for a

596
00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:25,316
Speaker 1: bad reason. Maybe I don't need to evacuate. Like that

597
00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:26,836
Speaker 1: seems complicated.

598
00:29:27,636 --> 00:29:31,236
Speaker 2: It is complicated, but it's the truth. Yeah, And so

599
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:33,156
Speaker 2: that's a fun one. The truth is hard, right.

600
00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:36,036
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like are there I guess it's I mean,

601
00:29:36,156 --> 00:29:38,796
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a journalist by training. I guess it's

602
00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:41,676
Speaker 1: always good for people to know more are there any

603
00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:42,996
Speaker 1: instances where you think it's not?

604
00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:48,236
Speaker 2: Absolutely we have we have a code of conducts that

605
00:29:48,276 --> 00:29:51,036
Speaker 2: we there are certain things we never ever do. We

606
00:29:51,116 --> 00:29:54,236
Speaker 2: don't talk about what's called an IWI an incident within

607
00:29:54,236 --> 00:29:56,036
Speaker 2: an incident, we don't name.

608
00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:58,716
Speaker 1: I don't know that. What's an incident with an incident?

609
00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:02,996
Speaker 2: Firefighter death I see right, or engine roll over our life.

610
00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:05,956
Speaker 2: There are there are scanners out there who do not

611
00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,636
Speaker 2: have this journalistic integrity and they'll say engine number three

612
00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:14,276
Speaker 2: forty seven rolled. Someone's wife or husband is going to

613
00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:18,156
Speaker 2: hear that and think they're dead. Right, That is not useful.

614
00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:21,356
Speaker 2: So we don't publish block numbers, we don't publish names.

615
00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:21,756
Speaker 3: You can see.

616
00:30:21,756 --> 00:30:23,476
Speaker 2: Even the fire that we're talking about right now, we

617
00:30:23,516 --> 00:30:26,316
Speaker 2: don't have an address, an exact address. We don't say one, two, three,

618
00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:30,396
Speaker 2: four Main Street, just lit a fire. Right, So when

619
00:30:30,436 --> 00:30:32,956
Speaker 2: you think about it from a large scale, back again,

620
00:30:33,076 --> 00:30:36,956
Speaker 2: like what is useful to know? Right, not a firefighter

621
00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:39,916
Speaker 2: died fighting for your life, right, it's actually that the

622
00:30:39,956 --> 00:30:41,876
Speaker 2: fire is burning over this ridge, or it's hung up

623
00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,036
Speaker 2: on the ridge, it's not moving, the tankers are coming.

624
00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:47,516
Speaker 3: That story is important. So there are lines, and we

625
00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:49,516
Speaker 3: do have practices for this to your point.

626
00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:53,476
Speaker 1: Yes, So let's talk about the sort of state of

627
00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:56,756
Speaker 1: the app. Now, how does it work? Like you're big? Now,

628
00:30:56,796 --> 00:31:01,076
Speaker 1: it's not four guys send in DoorDash to each other anymore? Right,

629
00:31:01,196 --> 00:31:03,396
Speaker 1: Like what is it like? What is this thing you

630
00:31:03,396 --> 00:31:03,796
Speaker 1: have built?

631
00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:06,396
Speaker 3: At this point? It's become a big thing.

632
00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:10,596
Speaker 2: It's almost sixty paid staff, about three hundred volunteers at

633
00:31:10,596 --> 00:31:14,036
Speaker 2: this point, and so it's gotten very large. We have

634
00:31:14,836 --> 00:31:18,596
Speaker 2: a career ladder for volunteers who want to become paid staff,

635
00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:19,956
Speaker 2: and many of them do a lot of them are

636
00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:23,596
Speaker 2: actually ex fire who want to be of service and

637
00:31:23,676 --> 00:31:25,956
Speaker 2: they can't help it. You know, just because you hang

638
00:31:26,036 --> 00:31:28,236
Speaker 2: up your yellows doesn't mean to stop fighting fire, and

639
00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:32,116
Speaker 2: so hits wild. We have dispatchers and firefighters and law

640
00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:35,236
Speaker 2: enforcement officers, sons and daughters of firefighters who've been hearing

641
00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:37,876
Speaker 2: the radio chatter and the background their entire life, and

642
00:31:37,916 --> 00:31:40,236
Speaker 2: so hits their way to be of service. And so

643
00:31:40,316 --> 00:31:43,796
Speaker 2: a lot of them who are passionate about their hobbies

644
00:31:43,916 --> 00:31:46,916
Speaker 2: and somehow they got lucky enough we found each other

645
00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:49,316
Speaker 2: and now we can pay them more money than they

646
00:31:49,316 --> 00:31:50,796
Speaker 2: were doing at a job. But a lot of them

647
00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:53,836
Speaker 2: didn't like, you know, so it's really an honor to

648
00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:57,316
Speaker 2: give them like a life and trajectory to do something

649
00:31:57,316 --> 00:31:59,196
Speaker 2: bigger than themselves out of a hobby.

650
00:31:59,516 --> 00:32:04,756
Speaker 1: And so the volunteers are listening to radios and sharing

651
00:32:04,796 --> 00:32:07,556
Speaker 1: the information through the app. That's basically what they're.

652
00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:11,556
Speaker 2: Doing twenty four And the important thing to note here

653
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:16,396
Speaker 2: is that in the background, we use slack for everything, right, so.

654
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:19,956
Speaker 3: Chat for you, No, it's Chat or Microsoft Teams or whatever.

655
00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,956
Speaker 2: We divided up the country and slack in different regions,

656
00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:28,676
Speaker 2: so we get signals from government sources and they show

657
00:32:28,716 --> 00:32:30,716
Speaker 2: up in Slack. So all of a sudden, let's use

658
00:32:30,756 --> 00:32:32,716
Speaker 2: this example that we're looking at with the Puza fire. Here,

659
00:32:32,796 --> 00:32:36,636
Speaker 2: what happens is that a signal comes in. We know

660
00:32:36,716 --> 00:32:39,596
Speaker 2: that firefighters are being dispatched somewhere we don't always know

661
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,316
Speaker 2: yet where. Some signals are digital and it has an address.

662
00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:45,436
Speaker 2: Some come over the radio. So what happens is it

663
00:32:45,516 --> 00:32:50,436
Speaker 2: drops a notification and slack everybody in that region sees, oh, shoot,

664
00:32:50,476 --> 00:32:53,356
Speaker 2: there's a fire. They start they put their ears on

665
00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:56,316
Speaker 2: is what they call it. They start listening. So now

666
00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:59,956
Speaker 2: what's happening is they're collaborating in real time so they're

667
00:32:59,996 --> 00:33:04,116
Speaker 2: all listening and they're all typing what they're hearing. Sometimes

668
00:33:04,156 --> 00:33:06,676
Speaker 2: they'll be copying each other saying the same thing. Sometimes

669
00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:10,036
Speaker 2: they'll be saying, yes, I heard that, confirm, confirm post it,

670
00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:13,796
Speaker 2: who's got the con who's got control, who's running the incident?

671
00:33:13,876 --> 00:33:17,156
Speaker 2: And so we are collaborating all the time. It's not

672
00:33:17,316 --> 00:33:19,756
Speaker 2: one lone wolf sitting in the radio shack somewhere.

673
00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:23,916
Speaker 1: It's interestingly low tech at a certain level. Right. That's

674
00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:27,596
Speaker 1: actually the people listening to the radio and checking each

675
00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:29,356
Speaker 1: other is sort of.

676
00:33:29,396 --> 00:33:33,476
Speaker 3: Wild, But that's how firefighters fight fire.

677
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:36,876
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, we just plug into the same infrastructure

678
00:33:36,916 --> 00:33:37,636
Speaker 2: they're plugging into.

679
00:33:37,676 --> 00:33:37,916
Speaker 1: I know.

680
00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:39,756
Speaker 3: It like blows people's minds.

681
00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:41,716
Speaker 2: We think we have like satellites and we can track

682
00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:44,636
Speaker 2: every hotspot, like there's some amazing future.

683
00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:47,596
Speaker 1: But literally people talking to each other being like, hey,

684
00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:50,196
Speaker 1: there's a fire over here, somebody come help me put

685
00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:51,036
Speaker 1: it out.

686
00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:51,956
Speaker 3: You got it?

687
00:33:52,716 --> 00:33:56,276
Speaker 1: Did I read that? You got a grant? Or are

688
00:33:56,276 --> 00:34:01,076
Speaker 1: working with Google to try and use AI to transcribe

689
00:34:01,196 --> 00:34:03,596
Speaker 1: the radio traffic that people listen to the radio.

690
00:34:04,116 --> 00:34:06,556
Speaker 2: That is that is correct, that is happening right now. Actually,

691
00:34:06,596 --> 00:34:08,836
Speaker 2: we use tons of AI to help US sift and

692
00:34:08,876 --> 00:34:13,316
Speaker 2: soar information coming from public information officers reading PDFs looking

693
00:34:13,356 --> 00:34:16,196
Speaker 2: at images for smoke and fire. Right like, we've been

694
00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:18,596
Speaker 2: using tons of AI, but we have a human as

695
00:34:18,636 --> 00:34:22,516
Speaker 2: the final backstop saying thank you machine that was actually wrong,

696
00:34:22,716 --> 00:34:24,756
Speaker 2: or that's in the wrong place, or that was actually

697
00:34:24,796 --> 00:34:27,556
Speaker 2: fifteen acres not fifty acres.

698
00:34:27,596 --> 00:34:30,236
Speaker 1: So hard one. It's a hard one in the English language.

699
00:34:30,716 --> 00:34:33,796
Speaker 2: Well, and especially when it's radio chatter over one hundred

700
00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:36,796
Speaker 2: and fifty five megahertz frequencies deep out in the woods.

701
00:34:36,836 --> 00:34:40,316
Speaker 2: Their static and so it's a little challenging. So our

702
00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:44,156
Speaker 2: goal is to again enable the humans. It's a copilot model,

703
00:34:44,276 --> 00:34:46,396
Speaker 2: not a replace the human model.

704
00:34:47,036 --> 00:34:51,756
Speaker 1: So you were talking about how some government officials were

705
00:34:51,796 --> 00:34:55,556
Speaker 1: antagonistic when you were starting out. I understand that you're

706
00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:59,196
Speaker 1: now you now have a product that that governments are

707
00:34:59,196 --> 00:35:02,676
Speaker 1: actually buying from you. Not only you're working with governments,

708
00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:08,396
Speaker 1: but they're a client. Tell me about that. So watch

709
00:35:08,396 --> 00:35:10,316
Speaker 1: Study is a free anyone can download it.

710
00:35:10,556 --> 00:35:13,316
Speaker 2: There's no sign up, no email, no tracking, no phone number,

711
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:15,756
Speaker 2: no nothing. It's like Craigslist. It's it's just there and

712
00:35:15,796 --> 00:35:18,916
Speaker 2: it works. So that's that's the point right now. If

713
00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:21,636
Speaker 2: you let you become a member of our nonprofit organization.

714
00:35:21,716 --> 00:35:23,516
Speaker 2: You can pay twenty five dollars a year and then

715
00:35:23,516 --> 00:35:25,716
Speaker 2: you get a couple extra features in the app. The

716
00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:27,076
Speaker 2: one that we have to pay a bunch of money

717
00:35:27,076 --> 00:35:29,916
Speaker 2: for is flight tracking. So now I can see the tankers,

718
00:35:29,996 --> 00:35:32,276
Speaker 2: I can see the types of tankers. I can see

719
00:35:31,996 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 2: the helicopters, and I can see where they're working. And

720
00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:38,236
Speaker 2: then if you spend ninety nine dollars a year, you

721
00:35:38,276 --> 00:35:41,436
Speaker 2: can get all the professional features. There's more in there

722
00:35:41,436 --> 00:35:45,196
Speaker 2: that we constantly are adding. But it's jurisdictional boundaries. It's

723
00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:47,596
Speaker 2: where the power lines are, It's what are the radio

724
00:35:47,636 --> 00:35:50,836
Speaker 2: frequencies and tones? Where are the repeaters because radios have

725
00:35:50,876 --> 00:35:52,276
Speaker 2: to hit repeaters to.

726
00:35:52,316 --> 00:35:54,036
Speaker 3: Bounce out to the next canyon.

727
00:35:54,276 --> 00:35:57,596
Speaker 1: So these are things that firefighters would want to know,

728
00:35:58,076 --> 00:36:01,996
Speaker 1: like jurisdictional boundaries and power lines. Yes, I'm worried about

729
00:36:01,996 --> 00:36:03,836
Speaker 1: a fire coming to my house. These are not things

730
00:36:03,876 --> 00:36:07,956
Speaker 1: that I'm preoccupied with. That's correct, and that's how that's

731
00:36:07,956 --> 00:36:11,756
Speaker 1: why it's valuable. Know how many like how big is

732
00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:13,996
Speaker 1: that business? I know you're a nonprofit, but whatever, how

733
00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:16,236
Speaker 1: many people you know, like are there big fire departments?

734
00:36:16,276 --> 00:36:17,156
Speaker 1: Who's buying that.

735
00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:21,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's probably about thirty forty thousand professionals

736
00:36:21,556 --> 00:36:23,076
Speaker 2: currently using I'd have to look.

737
00:36:23,716 --> 00:36:26,316
Speaker 3: It changes a lot. We've been selling like crazy recently.

738
00:36:26,476 --> 00:36:28,996
Speaker 1: But that's that's a lot. I mean, that's I mean,

739
00:36:29,036 --> 00:36:32,636
Speaker 1: there's that many. It's a lot of firefighters, right, presumably

740
00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:34,156
Speaker 1: that's mostly firefighters or what.

741
00:36:34,156 --> 00:36:34,636
Speaker 3: Who is now?

742
00:36:34,836 --> 00:36:40,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, now it's actually it's actually mostly utilities, powerwater, light, railroad.

743
00:36:41,316 --> 00:36:44,516
Speaker 2: All those folks have it, and firefighters also have it too,

744
00:36:44,596 --> 00:36:48,076
Speaker 2: and emergency managers also have it. And so here's the

745
00:36:48,076 --> 00:36:51,596
Speaker 2: fun part about this. We don't track anybody. So unless

746
00:36:51,596 --> 00:36:54,476
Speaker 2: you sign up, I actually don't know who you are.

747
00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:56,836
Speaker 2: And if you sign up with like your Yahoo account

748
00:36:56,876 --> 00:36:59,036
Speaker 2: that you signed up with fifteen years ago, like, I

749
00:36:59,036 --> 00:37:00,436
Speaker 2: don't know who this person is.

750
00:37:00,436 --> 00:37:02,876
Speaker 1: So right, But if it's whatever PG and E dot

751
00:37:02,916 --> 00:37:04,956
Speaker 1: com or something, then you know that it's correct.

752
00:37:05,116 --> 00:37:07,236
Speaker 2: They're one of our largest customers, right, and they help

753
00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:10,876
Speaker 2: support us. But we found though, as we go through

754
00:37:10,916 --> 00:37:13,196
Speaker 2: fire departments and we have a lot more relationship with

755
00:37:13,196 --> 00:37:16,076
Speaker 2: the fire service, we find out, oh wait, I pay

756
00:37:16,156 --> 00:37:17,996
Speaker 2: for it myself, or oh I swiped it on my

757
00:37:18,076 --> 00:37:20,676
Speaker 2: purchase card, and like you find out, They're like, oh, shoot,

758
00:37:20,996 --> 00:37:24,476
Speaker 2: there's like seventeen or seventy different people all paying for this.

759
00:37:24,796 --> 00:37:27,076
Speaker 2: I'm like, you guys, realize there's a discount a lot

760
00:37:27,236 --> 00:37:28,956
Speaker 2: if you all buy in bulk. And they're like, oh

761
00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:31,196
Speaker 2: my god, this is great. And then they find out

762
00:37:31,276 --> 00:37:33,796
Speaker 2: here's the fun part. And then they find out we

763
00:37:33,836 --> 00:37:37,156
Speaker 2: can overlay their data on watch duty, and that is

764
00:37:37,196 --> 00:37:37,996
Speaker 2: what's blown their mind.

765
00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:40,396
Speaker 1: What does that mean when you say overlay their data.

766
00:37:41,476 --> 00:37:45,836
Speaker 2: So let's use a power company, for example. A power

767
00:37:45,836 --> 00:37:50,156
Speaker 2: company or a water company has assets that are under threat.

768
00:37:50,436 --> 00:37:52,676
Speaker 2: They want to know where the fire is, where it's

769
00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:55,996
Speaker 2: going in relation to their assets, to their power line correctly,

770
00:37:56,476 --> 00:37:59,196
Speaker 2: or water lines or railroads right, it could be any

771
00:37:59,196 --> 00:37:59,756
Speaker 2: of these things.

772
00:37:59,796 --> 00:38:01,436
Speaker 3: It's men, women and equipment in the way.

773
00:38:01,636 --> 00:38:04,476
Speaker 1: So it's like it's like gis geographical information is just

774
00:38:04,476 --> 00:38:06,436
Speaker 1: like adding layers the map.

775
00:38:07,116 --> 00:38:12,036
Speaker 2: Correct And so it's interesting because we thought that us

776
00:38:12,156 --> 00:38:15,276
Speaker 2: selling them the data in a nice format that they

777
00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:18,316
Speaker 2: could put in their gas would actually be really valuable

778
00:38:18,356 --> 00:38:18,676
Speaker 2: to them.

779
00:38:19,076 --> 00:38:19,996
Speaker 3: It turns out it's not.

780
00:38:20,276 --> 00:38:25,196
Speaker 2: And here's why we've democratized this information so everybody has

781
00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:27,676
Speaker 2: it on their phone. So when you sell it to

782
00:38:27,716 --> 00:38:30,516
Speaker 2: the operations department. There's a couple of people in a

783
00:38:30,596 --> 00:38:32,316
Speaker 2: room somewhere and only they can see it.

784
00:38:32,356 --> 00:38:34,796
Speaker 1: Well, you're back in that the top down world. Right,

785
00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:37,596
Speaker 1: that's right. This is my hammer and a nail. Like

786
00:38:37,916 --> 00:38:40,636
Speaker 1: to me, every problem in this story looks like top

787
00:38:40,676 --> 00:38:41,916
Speaker 1: down versus bottom up.

788
00:38:42,356 --> 00:38:43,076
Speaker 3: It is it is.

789
00:38:43,196 --> 00:38:46,836
Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right, and so we've been able to

790
00:38:47,076 --> 00:38:50,956
Speaker 2: provide an immense amount of impact to troubleman, firefighters, people

791
00:38:50,996 --> 00:38:52,916
Speaker 2: on the ground, and now they're getting more out of it.

792
00:38:53,036 --> 00:38:55,716
Speaker 2: So now they're ingesting everything from like show me all

793
00:38:55,756 --> 00:38:59,156
Speaker 2: my fire hydrants, show me my jurisdiction, show me my firehouses,

794
00:38:59,196 --> 00:39:02,356
Speaker 2: show me my LA Unified School District is a customer

795
00:39:02,956 --> 00:39:06,436
Speaker 2: who has all their six hundred and fifty buildings in there,

796
00:39:06,476 --> 00:39:07,916
Speaker 2: and so it makes sense.

797
00:39:08,516 --> 00:39:11,436
Speaker 1: But when they use it, are they using the app

798
00:39:11,636 --> 00:39:13,956
Speaker 1: like I'm using but they can lay there? They they

799
00:39:13,996 --> 00:39:16,996
Speaker 1: sort of rather than starting with their software, they start

800
00:39:17,036 --> 00:39:19,756
Speaker 1: with your app and then they customize it for themselves

801
00:39:19,796 --> 00:39:22,156
Speaker 1: to lay their schoolhouses over. It is that the way

802
00:39:22,156 --> 00:39:22,596
Speaker 1: it works.

803
00:39:22,676 --> 00:39:23,756
Speaker 3: You got it, yeap.

804
00:39:24,156 --> 00:39:29,596
Speaker 1: That is extremely interesting, And just in the last few

805
00:39:29,676 --> 00:39:33,956
Speaker 1: days you added floods. This is the news. I did

806
00:39:33,956 --> 00:39:36,076
Speaker 1: a news search before we talked to CF I was

807
00:39:36,116 --> 00:39:37,596
Speaker 1: missing anything, and it was floods.

808
00:39:37,636 --> 00:39:40,076
Speaker 3: Floods are new just yesterday.

809
00:39:40,236 --> 00:39:42,156
Speaker 1: Congratulations, tell me about floods.

810
00:39:43,796 --> 00:39:44,516
Speaker 3: Thank you. Well.

811
00:39:44,916 --> 00:39:47,676
Speaker 2: Fires are the hardest to report on and it's a

812
00:39:47,716 --> 00:39:50,036
Speaker 2: lot of radio traffic work. If we look at the

813
00:39:50,076 --> 00:39:53,116
Speaker 2: other disasters, flooding being next. There's two reasons we picked it.

814
00:39:53,196 --> 00:39:56,236
Speaker 2: The first and obvious one is it kills more people

815
00:39:56,276 --> 00:40:00,636
Speaker 2: than fire. It is a catastrophic problem. It also needs help,

816
00:40:01,396 --> 00:40:02,636
Speaker 2: so that's why we picked it.

817
00:40:02,956 --> 00:40:05,316
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I didn't know that more people

818
00:40:05,916 --> 00:40:07,916
Speaker 1: died from flood This is in the United States.

819
00:40:08,676 --> 00:40:12,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, fires don't kill that many people, believe it or not.

820
00:40:13,236 --> 00:40:15,356
Speaker 2: It definitely kills people, and we just saw in the

821
00:40:15,436 --> 00:40:17,876
Speaker 2: Palace dates and even fires it does. But like the

822
00:40:17,956 --> 00:40:20,596
Speaker 2: Kerville flood as you just saw last year in July

823
00:40:20,676 --> 00:40:22,876
Speaker 2: fourth killed one hundred and twenty five people. Twenty five

824
00:40:22,876 --> 00:40:27,436
Speaker 2: of them were little girls Texas summer in Texas, that's right. Yeah,

825
00:40:27,476 --> 00:40:30,396
Speaker 2: And so floods have been a much bigger problem for

826
00:40:30,516 --> 00:40:33,636
Speaker 2: much longer, and they don't involve as much radio traffic.

827
00:40:34,036 --> 00:40:37,876
Speaker 2: So let's get into this. There's a lot of really

828
00:40:37,876 --> 00:40:40,756
Speaker 2: good signals. Again, back to my favorite weather service, the

829
00:40:40,836 --> 00:40:43,076
Speaker 2: NWS provides a great service to the world. And if

830
00:40:43,116 --> 00:40:45,516
Speaker 2: you look at Watch Judy today, you'll see all the

831
00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:48,876
Speaker 2: NWS polygons and alerts. So you can see the Doppler radar,

832
00:40:49,036 --> 00:40:51,276
Speaker 2: you can see where the flood warnings are.

833
00:40:51,316 --> 00:40:52,716
Speaker 3: And then my favorite.

834
00:40:52,356 --> 00:40:55,036
Speaker 2: Feature, because I live near a river here is the

835
00:40:55,156 --> 00:40:58,796
Speaker 2: river gauges. To the river gauges are actually operated by

836
00:40:58,996 --> 00:41:03,196
Speaker 2: the US Geological Service. Turns out it's fascinating and so

837
00:41:03,316 --> 00:41:06,596
Speaker 2: these are gauges that are on bridges with a float

838
00:41:06,796 --> 00:41:09,516
Speaker 2: that moves up and down and it radios in when

839
00:41:09,516 --> 00:41:09,996
Speaker 2: it's moving.

840
00:41:10,236 --> 00:41:10,836
Speaker 1: Beautiful.

841
00:41:11,076 --> 00:41:14,476
Speaker 3: Analog love analog, man, I do.

842
00:41:15,716 --> 00:41:19,996
Speaker 2: So what's really cool for me living here is that

843
00:41:20,076 --> 00:41:23,076
Speaker 2: if you live by a river, everybody knows their number.

844
00:41:23,356 --> 00:41:25,036
Speaker 3: So I live near the Russian River. Here's what I

845
00:41:25,036 --> 00:41:25,796
Speaker 3: mean by their number.

846
00:41:25,876 --> 00:41:28,436
Speaker 2: The number is when I have to GTFO when things

847
00:41:28,476 --> 00:41:30,436
Speaker 2: are going to get real south, real fast, right, we

848
00:41:30,516 --> 00:41:33,716
Speaker 2: got to get western. So some people live at twenty feet,

849
00:41:33,756 --> 00:41:35,436
Speaker 2: some people live at twenty eight feet. Some people are

850
00:41:35,476 --> 00:41:37,276
Speaker 2: above the hill and don't care at all, right, but

851
00:41:37,316 --> 00:41:38,876
Speaker 2: they have to know their number.

852
00:41:39,036 --> 00:41:41,596
Speaker 1: And so that number is the depth of the river

853
00:41:41,796 --> 00:41:43,636
Speaker 1: near your house. Is that what that number is?

854
00:41:44,436 --> 00:41:47,116
Speaker 2: You got it right, And that's really when you start

855
00:41:47,116 --> 00:41:48,796
Speaker 2: to know what to do.

856
00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:51,116
Speaker 1: And is actually what you care about the depth of

857
00:41:51,156 --> 00:41:54,756
Speaker 1: the river upriver? Presumably you want to know before it gets.

858
00:41:54,636 --> 00:41:57,676
Speaker 3: To you that is that's right, deep, that's right, that's right.

859
00:41:57,756 --> 00:42:00,316
Speaker 2: And so what's a little different about about this feature

860
00:42:00,476 --> 00:42:03,716
Speaker 2: is that you can now set your tolerance for pain

861
00:42:04,036 --> 00:42:05,876
Speaker 2: on your own and you can put the phone in

862
00:42:05,916 --> 00:42:08,276
Speaker 2: your pocket and live your life and know that it's

863
00:42:08,276 --> 00:42:11,476
Speaker 2: going to ping you when the river gauge hits five

864
00:42:11,476 --> 00:42:13,036
Speaker 2: feet below and you have to care and you get

865
00:42:13,076 --> 00:42:14,156
Speaker 2: pushed notified now I know.

866
00:42:14,316 --> 00:42:16,316
Speaker 1: So this is much more automated than the fire thing

867
00:42:16,316 --> 00:42:18,316
Speaker 1: you're saying. Basically, there is a there is a device

868
00:42:18,676 --> 00:42:21,516
Speaker 1: floating in the river that you're worried about, and it

869
00:42:21,596 --> 00:42:24,236
Speaker 1: is already sending out a radio signal. And now you

870
00:42:24,276 --> 00:42:27,196
Speaker 1: can get a ping whenever you want when that device

871
00:42:27,236 --> 00:42:29,996
Speaker 1: gets to whatever, when the river gets to whatever level

872
00:42:30,076 --> 00:42:31,156
Speaker 1: is of concern to you.

873
00:42:32,196 --> 00:42:34,796
Speaker 2: That is yes, that is the first part, and then

874
00:42:35,436 --> 00:42:37,956
Speaker 2: we add reporting on top of that. And so now

875
00:42:38,316 --> 00:42:40,436
Speaker 2: we do the same thing we always do for only

876
00:42:40,436 --> 00:42:42,956
Speaker 2: catastrophic flooding. If it's raining a lot, we're not going

877
00:42:43,036 --> 00:42:45,516
Speaker 2: to start pinging your phone, right, But when it's life

878
00:42:45,556 --> 00:42:47,596
Speaker 2: and death, and that's what watched Guda is about. It's life,

879
00:42:47,596 --> 00:42:50,756
Speaker 2: death and property and livelihoods not you know, get your surfboard,

880
00:42:50,756 --> 00:42:53,356
Speaker 2: go surfing. And so that's when we'll chime in and

881
00:42:53,396 --> 00:42:55,916
Speaker 2: we'll actually ping you and start doing the same thing

882
00:42:55,956 --> 00:42:58,236
Speaker 2: we did in the Garden Grove has Matt incident that

883
00:42:58,316 --> 00:43:01,276
Speaker 2: almost exploded in Orange County. Is we just listened to

884
00:43:01,276 --> 00:43:04,476
Speaker 2: the pios, We listened to incident commanders, and we relay

885
00:43:04,676 --> 00:43:08,116
Speaker 2: human consumable information for you to follow along with.

886
00:43:08,596 --> 00:43:09,476
Speaker 3: So it's a yes.

887
00:43:09,556 --> 00:43:13,156
Speaker 2: And there is more digital signal in flood than there

888
00:43:13,196 --> 00:43:13,756
Speaker 2: is in fire.

889
00:43:14,636 --> 00:43:17,476
Speaker 1: We've talked about some interesting kind of big ideas and

890
00:43:17,516 --> 00:43:20,476
Speaker 1: so I'm curious, you know, what you've learned, what you're

891
00:43:20,516 --> 00:43:23,076
Speaker 1: trying to figure out? What do you make of things?

892
00:43:23,876 --> 00:43:25,476
Speaker 3: Oh? I think we've talked about a lot of them.

893
00:43:25,476 --> 00:43:27,276
Speaker 2: But like, what does it look like to have like

894
00:43:27,996 --> 00:43:30,636
Speaker 2: a disaster a learning platform that just works across the

895
00:43:30,676 --> 00:43:31,316
Speaker 2: board like that.

896
00:43:31,356 --> 00:43:33,476
Speaker 3: This should have been a solved problem.

897
00:43:33,596 --> 00:43:36,636
Speaker 2: Right, NWS and FEMA and everyone should have gotten together

898
00:43:36,676 --> 00:43:39,236
Speaker 2: just figure out this problem. And there are great examples,

899
00:43:39,316 --> 00:43:41,956
Speaker 2: like I said, with tornadoes, we know what to do

900
00:43:42,636 --> 00:43:45,996
Speaker 2: and it's not getting done, and so it's we're taking

901
00:43:45,996 --> 00:43:47,876
Speaker 2: it on our shoulders to do it. And so at

902
00:43:47,876 --> 00:43:50,996
Speaker 2: some point you'll see tornadoes in there, you'll see tsunamis

903
00:43:51,036 --> 00:43:53,356
Speaker 2: in there, and you'll see all these other events that

904
00:43:53,396 --> 00:43:55,956
Speaker 2: you care about, even if you're not a weather nerd, right,

905
00:43:55,996 --> 00:43:58,196
Speaker 2: because there's plenty of weather apps, and that's not really

906
00:43:58,196 --> 00:44:00,876
Speaker 2: where we play. We play in a world that we

907
00:44:00,916 --> 00:44:02,716
Speaker 2: want to be there for. It's the app we want

908
00:44:02,716 --> 00:44:04,756
Speaker 2: you to have and you never want to have to use.

909
00:44:05,516 --> 00:44:06,916
Speaker 2: So if you download it and put it in your

910
00:44:06,916 --> 00:44:09,876
Speaker 2: pocket and never hear from us, we're doing our job.

911
00:44:10,436 --> 00:44:13,036
Speaker 2: You're safer. We all know what's happening. And so our

912
00:44:13,076 --> 00:44:16,796
Speaker 2: goal is to really give people a fighting chance right

913
00:44:16,996 --> 00:44:21,196
Speaker 2: when this happens, when fire comes lava, when tornadoes, I

914
00:44:21,316 --> 00:44:24,436
Speaker 2: want a fighting chance. And the tornado Warning system is

915
00:44:24,476 --> 00:44:27,276
Speaker 2: our role model. And I hope America can get out

916
00:44:27,316 --> 00:44:29,716
Speaker 2: of its own way and start to build better infrastructure

917
00:44:29,716 --> 00:44:30,556
Speaker 2: again like we used to.

918
00:44:34,516 --> 00:44:46,036
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. Okay,

919
00:44:46,076 --> 00:44:52,316
Speaker 1: let's do the lightning round. I love jargon, and I

920
00:44:52,356 --> 00:44:56,516
Speaker 1: feel like the radio traffic that you and your colleagues

921
00:44:56,556 --> 00:44:58,956
Speaker 1: are listening to must be full of jargon, and I

922
00:44:58,996 --> 00:45:01,196
Speaker 1: want you to teach me some give me, like, give

923
00:45:01,196 --> 00:45:02,236
Speaker 1: me a few of your favorites.

924
00:45:03,156 --> 00:45:06,636
Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple, and we don't always abbreviate them, actually,

925
00:45:06,676 --> 00:45:12,036
Speaker 2: and the fire surface doesn't either often. But ROC report

926
00:45:12,076 --> 00:45:14,796
Speaker 2: on conditions. That is a really important one for us.

927
00:45:14,876 --> 00:45:17,716
Speaker 2: When an engine first gets there, they will give out

928
00:45:17,796 --> 00:45:22,516
Speaker 2: report on conditions and it sounds like this fire burning uphill,

929
00:45:22,716 --> 00:45:25,116
Speaker 2: heavy timber, critical rate of spread, you.

930
00:45:24,996 --> 00:45:26,636
Speaker 3: Know, all resources requested.

931
00:45:26,996 --> 00:45:27,516
Speaker 1: Sounds bad.

932
00:45:27,516 --> 00:45:29,756
Speaker 3: That's a signal to us where like, holy shit, this

933
00:45:29,796 --> 00:45:31,476
Speaker 3: is going to be a really bad one.

934
00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:35,436
Speaker 2: And then you hear things like reporter conditions like small

935
00:45:35,556 --> 00:45:39,316
Speaker 2: roadside spot extinguished by locals. That's my favorite, Like someone

936
00:45:39,356 --> 00:45:41,716
Speaker 2: pulls over with a fire with a fire extinguisher in

937
00:45:41,756 --> 00:45:43,996
Speaker 2: their car and puts it out. The amount of vehicle fires,

938
00:45:43,996 --> 00:45:46,796
Speaker 2: that spread of the vegetation is real, and so the

939
00:45:46,836 --> 00:45:49,076
Speaker 2: report on conditions is like, that's what that's what we're

940
00:45:49,116 --> 00:45:49,516
Speaker 2: waiting for.

941
00:45:49,596 --> 00:45:51,396
Speaker 3: That's all we want to know. So that's a really

942
00:45:51,396 --> 00:45:51,836
Speaker 3: big one.

943
00:45:52,276 --> 00:45:54,276
Speaker 1: Give me a little like do they do the tens?

944
00:45:54,436 --> 00:45:56,756
Speaker 1: I mean, I know ten four is a classic, but

945
00:45:56,756 --> 00:45:59,036
Speaker 1: aren't there a bunch of tens? Ten? Ten, ten, twenty.

946
00:45:59,116 --> 00:45:59,756
Speaker 1: Is that not a thing?

947
00:45:59,876 --> 00:46:02,796
Speaker 3: No, not not really, not really.

948
00:46:02,876 --> 00:46:06,916
Speaker 2: I mean it's interesting because fire service is really and like,

949
00:46:06,956 --> 00:46:08,556
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, like I love what the police

950
00:46:08,596 --> 00:46:10,716
Speaker 2: do as well, Like fire service is really a mutual

951
00:46:10,756 --> 00:46:13,836
Speaker 2: aid thing. And so there's lots of other people involved

952
00:46:13,836 --> 00:46:17,116
Speaker 2: in listening. So it's every color of every engine and

953
00:46:17,196 --> 00:46:19,956
Speaker 2: every patch has to speak English on the same radio

954
00:46:19,956 --> 00:46:24,596
Speaker 2: traffic radio channels, right, and then add in power, water

955
00:46:24,796 --> 00:46:30,276
Speaker 2: light tailco railroads. There's firefighting railroad engines. There are huge

956
00:46:30,316 --> 00:46:33,716
Speaker 2: engines with massive cannons and they drive the ravines, wetting

957
00:46:33,756 --> 00:46:38,436
Speaker 2: everything wild. It's pretty it's the photos are intense. It's

958
00:46:38,476 --> 00:46:42,396
Speaker 2: absolutely bonkers. And then you have dot DPW. They're trying

959
00:46:42,436 --> 00:46:45,156
Speaker 2: to open up roads and keep things moving. Like mutual

960
00:46:45,196 --> 00:46:46,196
Speaker 2: aid is mutual.

961
00:46:47,116 --> 00:46:50,196
Speaker 1: So the firefighters who are talking into the radios know

962
00:46:50,316 --> 00:46:53,236
Speaker 1: that they're talking to everybody. They know that they're speaking publicly,

963
00:46:53,316 --> 00:46:55,996
Speaker 1: not to just some other firefighter.

964
00:46:56,956 --> 00:46:57,716
Speaker 3: That's correct.

965
00:46:59,076 --> 00:47:05,796
Speaker 1: What's another domain besides emergencies natural disasters that might benefit

966
00:47:05,876 --> 00:47:09,076
Speaker 1: from this kind of community sourced bottom up information.

967
00:47:09,956 --> 00:47:11,876
Speaker 2: I mean that's an easy one to answer, right, I mean,

968
00:47:11,916 --> 00:47:15,196
Speaker 2: like look at the the os int community or open

969
00:47:15,276 --> 00:47:19,356
Speaker 2: source intelligence community, that happens on Twitter and other places.

970
00:47:19,596 --> 00:47:20,796
Speaker 3: Now we call it x but.

971
00:47:21,116 --> 00:47:23,716
Speaker 2: There's tons of people who do incredible amount of war

972
00:47:23,796 --> 00:47:28,836
Speaker 2: reporting and monitoring and intelligence gathering and OS and Defender

973
00:47:28,956 --> 00:47:32,196
Speaker 2: is a really good one on on on Twitter, and

974
00:47:32,276 --> 00:47:34,756
Speaker 2: these these guys and gals are really good at gathering

975
00:47:34,796 --> 00:47:36,996
Speaker 2: intelligence and spreading the info to the world. And so

976
00:47:37,076 --> 00:47:38,796
Speaker 2: there's a lot of other role models of this.

977
00:47:39,276 --> 00:47:41,636
Speaker 1: What's an example of what they figure out? Those those

978
00:47:41,716 --> 00:47:42,636
Speaker 1: kinds of people.

979
00:47:43,076 --> 00:47:47,116
Speaker 2: They track airplane flights and monitors for example, they're like, hey,

980
00:47:47,116 --> 00:47:49,676
Speaker 2: there's all these KC one thirty is all flying over

981
00:47:49,716 --> 00:47:52,836
Speaker 2: the ocean right now. KC one thirty is a refueling plane.

982
00:47:52,876 --> 00:47:56,236
Speaker 2: And when you see like ten refueling planes crossing the pond,

983
00:47:56,316 --> 00:47:56,716
Speaker 2: you're like.

984
00:47:57,156 --> 00:47:58,956
Speaker 3: Oh, oh, something's up.

985
00:47:59,116 --> 00:48:01,356
Speaker 2: Right, And so like there's all these little ways that

986
00:48:01,396 --> 00:48:04,636
Speaker 2: you can look at this intelligence and glean something from it.

987
00:48:05,396 --> 00:48:08,836
Speaker 2: So it's everywhere, and like Wikipedia is open source and

988
00:48:08,876 --> 00:48:12,676
Speaker 2: tell right, like, yes, it's not too dissimilar, and so

989
00:48:12,756 --> 00:48:14,116
Speaker 2: this exists other places.

990
00:48:15,076 --> 00:48:19,836
Speaker 1: Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a really interesting, uh kind of analogous

991
00:48:19,956 --> 00:48:22,636
Speaker 1: organization to watch duty in a weird way, right, it's

992
00:48:22,636 --> 00:48:27,636
Speaker 1: it's bottom up information. If you weren't working on watch duty.

993
00:48:27,676 --> 00:48:32,396
Speaker 1: What would you be working on I'd probably be woodworking. Frankly,

994
00:48:33,316 --> 00:48:34,996
Speaker 1: I have a big ranch to manage. What was the

995
00:48:35,036 --> 00:48:36,436
Speaker 1: last thing you built out of wood?

996
00:48:38,276 --> 00:48:38,596
Speaker 2: Uh?

997
00:48:38,796 --> 00:48:41,276
Speaker 3: Just last week or two weeks ago.

998
00:48:41,396 --> 00:48:45,676
Speaker 2: I just finished four very large, twelve foot long redwood

999
00:48:45,716 --> 00:48:48,396
Speaker 2: tables on rolling wheels, so I can entertain and have

1000
00:48:48,916 --> 00:48:50,516
Speaker 2: have big parties. And I just had a bunch of

1001
00:48:50,516 --> 00:48:53,716
Speaker 2: fire chiefs over spent the night a couple of weeks ago.

1002
00:48:53,556 --> 00:48:54,236
Speaker 3: Which was awesome.

1003
00:48:54,356 --> 00:48:56,876
Speaker 1: You had a slumber party with fire chiefs.

1004
00:48:57,436 --> 00:49:02,516
Speaker 2: It's more of a you know, living boys dream you get,

1005
00:49:02,556 --> 00:49:04,196
Speaker 2: except that I can drink bourbon and play with fire.

1006
00:49:04,236 --> 00:49:08,476
Speaker 1: It's the twelve year old boys dream. It's it's great.

1007
00:49:09,196 --> 00:49:13,476
Speaker 1: What's what's the DIY project? You got in over your

1008
00:49:13,476 --> 00:49:13,916
Speaker 1: head on.

1009
00:49:16,036 --> 00:49:16,636
Speaker 3: Watch Didy?

1010
00:49:18,436 --> 00:49:20,476
Speaker 2: You know, like this thing is a monster, like what

1011
00:49:20,556 --> 00:49:22,436
Speaker 2: we knew we were gonna you know, catch you know,

1012
00:49:22,556 --> 00:49:24,836
Speaker 2: ride the dragon. But it's this thing's bigger than we

1013
00:49:25,796 --> 00:49:26,356
Speaker 2: then we could.

1014
00:49:26,236 --> 00:49:28,316
Speaker 3: Have hoped or expected. So that's a pretty big one.

1015
00:49:29,556 --> 00:49:32,716
Speaker 2: Living off the grid is an interesting challenge, and most

1016
00:49:32,756 --> 00:49:36,916
Speaker 2: people think living off the grid means power problems. That's

1017
00:49:36,956 --> 00:49:39,996
Speaker 2: not true. Power is very easy to manage. It's very digital.

1018
00:49:40,076 --> 00:49:43,516
Speaker 2: Now it's super easy to my systems never go down.

1019
00:49:43,676 --> 00:49:46,916
Speaker 2: You know what's hard keeping water in the freaking pipes.

1020
00:49:47,356 --> 00:49:49,556
Speaker 2: I am chasing water problems. I have a mile and

1021
00:49:49,596 --> 00:49:51,836
Speaker 2: a half a pipe, my wells a half a mile

1022
00:49:51,916 --> 00:49:53,836
Speaker 2: from me. I have tank arrays all over the place

1023
00:49:54,116 --> 00:49:56,116
Speaker 2: as we speak. I have a water problem that I

1024
00:49:56,156 --> 00:49:58,076
Speaker 2: fixed one and found two more at the same time.

1025
00:49:58,436 --> 00:50:01,356
Speaker 2: And so I built water monitoring systems so I know

1026
00:50:01,396 --> 00:50:02,596
Speaker 2: when the waters are going down.

1027
00:50:02,716 --> 00:50:05,036
Speaker 3: I know when I'm losing water. I can open and

1028
00:50:05,076 --> 00:50:09,076
Speaker 3: close valves and watch the data and so over my head,

1029
00:50:09,236 --> 00:50:10,676
Speaker 3: like I don't that's a big one.

1030
00:50:10,716 --> 00:50:13,076
Speaker 2: I fight my way out of everything, including the one

1031
00:50:13,076 --> 00:50:14,996
Speaker 2: I got myself into the watch duty. But like I

1032
00:50:15,076 --> 00:50:16,716
Speaker 2: just I don't give up, and I know I can

1033
00:50:16,756 --> 00:50:17,716
Speaker 2: solve these problems.

1034
00:50:17,796 --> 00:50:19,396
Speaker 1: What's your water problem? Right now?

1035
00:50:21,036 --> 00:50:24,676
Speaker 2: I'm losing about two hundred gallons a day on one

1036
00:50:24,756 --> 00:50:26,956
Speaker 2: side of my lines, which isn't that much given I

1037
00:50:26,996 --> 00:50:30,636
Speaker 2: produce two or three thousand a day and I have

1038
00:50:30,636 --> 00:50:34,036
Speaker 2: thirty five gallons thirty five thousand gallons in tanks.

1039
00:50:34,116 --> 00:50:34,756
Speaker 3: When I open the.

1040
00:50:34,756 --> 00:50:38,716
Speaker 2: Valve, the water comes out, so it's gravity fed, mostly

1041
00:50:38,756 --> 00:50:41,956
Speaker 2: for fire reasons. But what that means is that small

1042
00:50:41,996 --> 00:50:44,316
Speaker 2: leak will become a big leak, and then vines will

1043
00:50:44,356 --> 00:50:46,796
Speaker 2: grow their way inside the pipe and start to slowly

1044
00:50:46,836 --> 00:50:47,756
Speaker 2: break the thing open.

1045
00:50:47,876 --> 00:50:50,516
Speaker 3: So I have to address it. At some point.

1046
00:50:50,636 --> 00:50:52,556
Speaker 2: I might have two years, I might have two days.

1047
00:50:52,636 --> 00:50:55,996
Speaker 2: It's eventually going to break. What's your next big project?

1048
00:50:58,156 --> 00:51:01,636
Speaker 2: Probably some tree houses that might be next. I have

1049
00:51:01,676 --> 00:51:03,636
Speaker 2: a couple of cabins, I have a couple of yurts.

1050
00:51:03,836 --> 00:51:04,676
Speaker 3: I have more to build.

1051
00:51:04,676 --> 00:51:06,476
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to build treehouses. I've got to do

1052
00:51:06,516 --> 00:51:09,796
Speaker 2: a couple of bridges as well. Have a real housing

1053
00:51:09,836 --> 00:51:12,156
Speaker 2: crisis here on my property.

1054
00:51:12,276 --> 00:51:13,996
Speaker 3: We have too many friends and guests and I want

1055
00:51:13,996 --> 00:51:14,996
Speaker 3: places them to stay.

1056
00:51:15,076 --> 00:51:17,596
Speaker 2: And so that's something that I really think about, is

1057
00:51:17,636 --> 00:51:20,516
Speaker 2: my guest you know, experience, and having more people here

1058
00:51:20,556 --> 00:51:22,876
Speaker 2: to share this place with me. Because with the amount

1059
00:51:22,876 --> 00:51:24,916
Speaker 2: of taxis and insurance I paid this land, man, I

1060
00:51:24,956 --> 00:51:26,196
Speaker 2: don't own it, you know.

1061
00:51:26,276 --> 00:51:27,916
Speaker 3: I'll give it to the nonprofit when I'm dead.

1062
00:51:28,036 --> 00:51:30,676
Speaker 2: And I want to keep this thing going and keep

1063
00:51:30,756 --> 00:51:34,596
Speaker 2: innovating here and bringing people together to build weird things

1064
00:51:34,596 --> 00:51:35,676
Speaker 2: that change the future.

1065
00:51:36,236 --> 00:51:38,916
Speaker 1: Great ending. Thanks for your time.

1066
00:51:39,916 --> 00:51:41,476
Speaker 3: Here, Very welcome. It's a lot of fun. I love

1067
00:51:41,476 --> 00:51:46,756
Speaker 3: talking about it. I do it every day.

1068
00:51:49,796 --> 00:51:53,436
Speaker 1: John Mills is the co founder and CEO of Watch Duty.

1069
00:51:54,156 --> 00:51:56,796
Speaker 1: Please let us know what you think of the show,

1070
00:51:57,196 --> 00:51:58,476
Speaker 1: which you want to hear more of, which you want

1071
00:51:58,516 --> 00:52:02,916
Speaker 1: to hear less of particular guest ideas. You can email

1072
00:52:02,996 --> 00:52:05,916
Speaker 1: us at problem at pushkin dot fm. I read all

1073
00:52:05,916 --> 00:52:10,396
Speaker 1: the emails. You can also find me on x grum LinkedIn.

1074
00:52:11,076 --> 00:52:14,596
Speaker 1: Really do appreciate all the messages that we get. Today's

1075
00:52:14,596 --> 00:52:17,116
Speaker 1: show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang and Trina Menino.

1076
00:52:17,236 --> 00:52:20,356
Speaker 1: It was engineered by Hansdale She and edited by Lydia

1077
00:52:20,436 --> 00:52:23,476
Speaker 1: Jean Kott. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next

1078
00:52:23,476 --> 00:52:31,276
Speaker 1: week with another episode of What's Your Problem