Speaker 1: Hello, mydeas. The Joy podcast will be taking the holidays off.
Speaker 1: I hope you can too and have a lovely time
Speaker 1: however you like to spend it, and with whomever you
Speaker 1: like to spend it with. We'll be back on January
Speaker 1: the fourteenth with the lovely Lisa Lobe. That's more alliteration
Speaker 1: than I thought I was going to have when I
Speaker 1: started talking today. But there you are, the lovely Lisa
Speaker 1: Lobe on the fourteenth of January, and have a lovely
Speaker 1: holiday time, my friends. Be careful, stay safe, see you soon.
Speaker 1: My name is Craig Ferguson. This podcast is called Joy.
Speaker 1: It's not Rocket Science. I talk to people I like
Speaker 1: about their pursuit of happiness. Here's Kathy Lee Gifford, an
Speaker 1: American legend. She loves Jesus' TV country music Enjoy.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy less I with the biggest smaller said,
Speaker 2: I can just see my my Howard.
Speaker 1: Yeah tomorrow. Yeah we're ready to go. Yeah, Yeah, we
Speaker 1: will just go. Can I be a little more, a
Speaker 1: little louder in here because I'm going it was a
Speaker 1: little more of himself. I want a little more of
Speaker 1: you too. Yeah. I like to you know, only you
Speaker 1: did it.
Speaker 2: Just because of that slot. So this is called joy.
Speaker 1: It's called joy.
Speaker 2: Lord, please bless this time together with Craig can help
Speaker 2: us not to be too naughty. And Jesus name man.
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't look, I am not want to scoff
Speaker 1: about prayer. No, no, I am not. I am not
Speaker 1: a I wouldn't describe myself as a person of faith,
Speaker 1: but I am a person of doubt, which is on
Speaker 1: the way to faith. Right.
Speaker 2: Yes, and some people's journeys are quite long, yeah.
Speaker 1: Taking a while. But I I feel like that prayer
Speaker 1: you sent up there about Lord help us not be naughty.
Speaker 1: I think that in a hurtful way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think I I'd love to be naughty
Speaker 2: with you anytime you're ready and you get rid of
Speaker 2: that you know woman, that's why is she still there?
Speaker 1: Wait? Wait a minute. You know sometimes I think she
Speaker 1: asked herself the same question. So listen.
Speaker 2: She's a type of woman you want to hate because
Speaker 2: she's so beautiful, she's so smart, she's so everything, and
Speaker 2: then you meet her and she's you. You love her.
Speaker 1: You're talking about my wife, no, the.
Speaker 2: Other one you have.
Speaker 1: But listen, I know I know that you're very private
Speaker 1: and I respect and listen. You know what, Let me
Speaker 1: just say at the start of this because because this
Speaker 1: this is an unusual set of conversations for me. Yes,
Speaker 1: that we are going to talk about joy and we
Speaker 1: are going to talk about that, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to you about it because you and I have
Speaker 1: a friendship, yes, which I love you, I adore you,
Speaker 1: and I don't agree.
Speaker 2: With you in a lot of things, and I think
Speaker 2: that the most important things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true. But but I think that
Speaker 1: I see so much of like people can't be friends
Speaker 1: unless they all think along.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cancel the cancel thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems a little I don't know, that's stupid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can learn from everybody we sit down and
Speaker 2: have a conversation with Why would we want to block off?
Speaker 2: First of all, it's the antithesis of my faith, which
Speaker 2: is I don't say that my Christian faith because I'm
Speaker 2: I was born to a Jewish father and a shicks
Speaker 2: some mother, you know, which is a gentile mother, and
Speaker 2: we didn't grow up with any organized religion in my
Speaker 2: life at all until all of us came to an
Speaker 2: understanding of faith in the person of Jesus who in
Speaker 2: the in the Hebrew is called Yeshua, and all of
Speaker 2: my family did. And so when they say, what do
Speaker 2: you believe, I said, I'm a I'm a follower of Jesus.
Speaker 2: And even you and I have conversations quite a bit
Speaker 2: when we are on set for our movie Than Came You,
Speaker 2: which is available on Netflix now if you want to know.
Speaker 2: But but you talked. I said, you said that to me,
Speaker 2: And I've told this story on a couple of occasions
Speaker 2: because we had a break in shooting, as you always
Speaker 2: do in a movie. Sure, and you said, and I
Speaker 2: can't do you without doing you. But because I have
Speaker 2: your head, I used to be in my head, I
Speaker 2: had you down perfectly. So I won't do it today.
Speaker 2: I will avoid it.
Speaker 1: Can I give you permission? It's really all right now.
Speaker 2: Because I just you know, I'm sitting across from you,
Speaker 2: and it's been a couple of years and I've just
Speaker 2: been too long. It's and they put you too far
Speaker 2: away from me. I can't even reach you under the table.
Speaker 1: I think, well, then somebody's reached me.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: You got you got your channel change and stick down there.
Speaker 1: Something's happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said basically to me, Kathy, why do you
Speaker 2: love me and Ricky meaning ger vas right, we were
Speaker 2: not great guys? Is the way you said it? And
Speaker 2: I thought, that's so not true.
Speaker 1: Well, Ricky's a great guy, you think that, I think.
Speaker 2: No, you continue to say, we don't believe like you,
Speaker 2: We don't believe in your faith, we don't probably don't
Speaker 2: vote the way you do. But why do you love
Speaker 2: us so much? Because you knew I did? And I said, well,
Speaker 2: first of all, you're unbelievably lovable, and you're aging like
Speaker 2: a fine wine that you no longer drink. But anyway,
Speaker 2: you are created in the image of God, both you
Speaker 2: and Ricky. And plus you're the funniest, smartest, dearest people.
Speaker 2: There's so many good things to love about you. Why
Speaker 2: wouldn't I love you? To which here's the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you said, no person of faith has ever told us
Speaker 2: before that they love us, And I said to you, well,
Speaker 2: then you've never met one before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't to be fair, I don't know
Speaker 1: about Ricky. I mean, he probably gets told people love
Speaker 1: them all the time. But when I was well, I mean,
Speaker 1: we're going to see people of faith. That was what
Speaker 1: that was about. He gets told he's what's not to
Speaker 1: love about him?
Speaker 2: Except maybe I can't think of something right, But you
Speaker 2: know you love what your love.
Speaker 1: But let but let me just say, let me let
Speaker 1: me talk to you a little bit about joy. We
Speaker 1: will talk to you about your about your faith and
Speaker 1: about Jesus. Yeah, all right, good, all right, So we're
Speaker 1: done with that. Now. I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: a little bit about joy because the reason why I
Speaker 1: wanted to do to have discussions with people about it
Speaker 1: is because you, to me, are an example of someone
Speaker 1: who has gone through, particularly recently with Frank and all
Speaker 1: that that You've gone through a lot of stuff. And
Speaker 1: I saw you. I remember seeing you. I think the
Speaker 1: Today Show wasn't long after Frank had passed, and you
Speaker 1: had that kind of quite speedy vibe of someone who
Speaker 1: was in grief and in shock, which is but but
Speaker 1: you also had something else, which is I suppose is
Speaker 1: your faith. And you'll tell me, but you are someone
Speaker 1: to me who seems to be an adversity able to
Speaker 1: learn to a joy of some kind or maybe maybe
Speaker 1: it's wrong to say, but manufacture it in yourself or
Speaker 1: procure or find it from somewhere. Would that be accurate.
Speaker 2: No, I'm sure it seems like that to some people.
Speaker 2: It was actually a week after Frank had passed. Now
Speaker 2: I had found just for people who don't know the story,
Speaker 2: and it's been almost eight years now since he passed. Wow,
Speaker 2: he had been sick. He had a lot of CTE,
Speaker 2: chronic traumatic and cephalop I can't say the last word,
Speaker 2: and cephalopathy, which is brain damage concussion after concussion after.
Speaker 1: From the football.
Speaker 2: It was a Sunday morning, a beautiful Sunday morning. It
Speaker 2: was hod Hiss birthday, August ninth, and I remember it's
Speaker 2: the things you remember crazy. But this is why, this
Speaker 2: is in answer to why I was the way I
Speaker 2: was during this quite would have been traumatic experience for
Speaker 2: somebody that didn't already cling to God the way I have.
Speaker 2: For so many years. I've always said, you know, there's
Speaker 2: no bad time to find God, but the worst times,
Speaker 2: you're grateful you already cling to him. He just cling
Speaker 2: tighter at a time like that. And so I heard
Speaker 2: him get on his scale. The man was one week
Speaker 2: shy of eighty five, and he naked. He looked from
Speaker 2: the back. The man was thirty. You know, he worked
Speaker 2: out still he's he exercised his brain. What was left
Speaker 2: of it, We didn't know, because you don't know about
Speaker 2: CTE until you do an autopsy, and we weren't going
Speaker 2: to do that on him. Before he was gone.
Speaker 1: I thought that would have been It's just not people
Speaker 1: fring on it. It might even be legal in some states.
Speaker 2: I don't know, not anymore. Eugenics. Baby, bye bye. You're
Speaker 2: breathing air and leaving a carbon footprint. Bye bye. No
Speaker 2: more so anyway, No, he was. He was an extraordinary
Speaker 2: man to the day that he did pass. But I
Speaker 2: heard him get on his scale, which he did every day,
Speaker 2: and it said your weight is one hundred and seventy
Speaker 2: eight pounds, and I remember thinking, oh, it's going to
Speaker 2: be a good day. That was his playing weight for
Speaker 2: all those years, and that was his favorite weight. So
Speaker 2: he was extremely disciplined in lots of week now. He
Speaker 2: enjoyed life like crazy, and God knows he made mistakes.
Speaker 2: Nobody knows that like I do. But he was a good, good,
Speaker 2: solid man of a different era, cramp, a different generation.
Speaker 2: He grew up during the Depression, ate dog food as
Speaker 2: a child and was grateful to have it. His father
Speaker 2: was an itinerant oil worker. I mean they lived. I
Speaker 2: think I don't even remember thirty different places while he
Speaker 2: was growing up. So he never was able to put
Speaker 2: down roots anywhere. But the one thing that could he
Speaker 2: could stand out at every time he moved to a
Speaker 2: different place was his athleticism, and so that came to
Speaker 2: be the thing. He was a terrible student. Later when
Speaker 2: he when he got a scholarship to USC to play football,
Speaker 2: he became their their finest scholar athlete. He was so
Speaker 2: grateful to have an education.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that one was
Speaker 1: fran Was Frank a grateful man? Was he a joyful man?
Speaker 2: You know, that's such a great question, because you would
Speaker 2: think he was grateful. And that's why we didn't bring
Speaker 2: a class action suit once we got the results of
Speaker 2: his brain scans. You know a lot of people who
Speaker 2: had whose loved ones had worked in the NFL joined
Speaker 2: this class action suit because the NFL knew about this.
Speaker 2: They did and and and Frank was was He said,
Speaker 2: no matter what you find out, Kathy, you know, when
Speaker 2: I'm gone, I don't want to be a part of that.
Speaker 2: I don't want our family to be He said, I
Speaker 2: am so grateful for the life that I have had
Speaker 2: that the NFL afforded me. He would have. He was
Speaker 2: when he wasn't playing for the Giants, and he went
Speaker 2: back to California and sold for fertilizer in Bakersfield. That's
Speaker 2: what the NFL was at that time. No, but he
Speaker 2: was a full time football player. They only played it
Speaker 2: till the you know, for the season. Everybody else had
Speaker 2: jobs other ways. You know, a lot of them came
Speaker 2: back from World War Two with half of their life
Speaker 2: shot up. You know Connorley, Connerley, who was his best
Speaker 2: friend there and was the quarterback, and they became dear,
Speaker 2: dear friends. And he had just just come back from
Speaker 2: World War Two, so you know, it's a different world.
Speaker 2: I'm twenty three years younger than Frank was to the day,
Speaker 2: so I would hear the stories he would tell, and
Speaker 2: I would have such respect an admiration for the for
Speaker 2: the the kind of human beings that existed. Then we
Speaker 2: hear so much today about the entitlement, about the cancel culture,
Speaker 2: all of that stuff which just demeans and diminishes the
Speaker 2: human spirit. Everything Frank talked to me about celebrated it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: a little bit about the council culture thing, because I
Speaker 1: I do have a knee jerk reaction a little bit
Speaker 1: out of myself. But at the same time, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I look at my you know, my my
Speaker 1: oldest boy is twenty two, so he's kind of in
Speaker 1: that in that world, that world, and and you you know,
Speaker 1: and I want to I want to have an open
Speaker 1: mind about the youth, you know, like you have an
Speaker 1: open mind about people who are not Messianic, Jewish Christian.
Speaker 2: Which is most of the world, right, which is I
Speaker 2: don't want to cut off most of the world because
Speaker 2: they don't agree with me.
Speaker 1: Right, and I don't want to. I don't want to
Speaker 1: cut off the I'm not sure with cancel culture if
Speaker 1: it's if it's really like that for most of them,
Speaker 1: you know, I think for the kids. I mean when
Speaker 1: I say them, I mean I'm talking about young people.
Speaker 2: I think, what do you call it? Gen X or
Speaker 2: Z g Z. Now what do you do now we've
Speaker 2: run out of that, We're going to pick up the
Speaker 2: Greek alphabet.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that my youngest boy, Liam
Speaker 1: is twelve, so he's he's just coming into a generation.
Speaker 1: I don't know. What the generation is called. But I think
Speaker 1: they're going to be different.
Speaker 2: He's twelve, you know what, can we just say he's twelve.
Speaker 1: He's twelve, and he's adorable, gorgeous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he reminds me of Stewie and family guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think he would be he would be
Speaker 1: insulted by that.
Speaker 2: I think he'd be proud. Word is a badge of honor.
Speaker 2: I want to call Dad, call me Snewie.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Although I think I'm a little like Peter Griffin
Speaker 1: as well, which is a little si. I'm like that.
Speaker 2: I'm Brian the Dog.
Speaker 1: You're well, yeah, a little bit. Yeah with the wine.
Speaker 2: Hey, this is a this is a latte. I'm about
Speaker 2: to graduate though, are you listen?
Speaker 1: There's another thing that I admire about you. You can drink.
Speaker 1: I can't drink.
Speaker 2: I know you can't.
Speaker 1: But have you ever had a problem? Do you ever
Speaker 1: feel like oh boy?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Times definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That makes me feel oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Here's the thing. If Jesus is my model and
Speaker 2: we go back to Yeshua Jesus, right, people have no
Speaker 2: idea you because they don't study rabbinically. The Western Christian
Speaker 2: world has no idea of our roots. They don't. I've
Speaker 2: had people even say to me through the years, now
Speaker 2: Jesus was, Jesus is Catholic. Right, I'll go, do you
Speaker 2: know what year the Catholic Church came to be? I
Speaker 2: forget now, it's like five ninety a d or something
Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, I said, Jesus had long since died, resurrected,
Speaker 2: ascended to heaven. And no, he was not Catholic. He
Speaker 2: was a Jew, a rabbinic. It was a rabbi, and
Speaker 2: he was a Jew and a perfect Jew.
Speaker 1: Was there a moment that kicked this off for you?
Speaker 2: I remember it as I'm going to be seventy years
Speaker 2: old this year. I can't even that's not true?
Speaker 1: Good? Do I know? I need to know which moisturizer
Speaker 1: you use, because.
Speaker 2: You if only it was more just moisturizer. You know
Speaker 2: what it's it's that that's for that's for our lunch afterwards,
Speaker 2: where you're not usually talking. Yeah, yeah, no, I do.
Speaker 2: I'm actually developing a skin line. And all of the
Speaker 2: botanicals they are in the skin line come from the Bible.
Speaker 2: What yes, Who was the greatest seductress of all time?
Speaker 1: Salomi?
Speaker 2: No? Even before that, Cleopatra Cleopatra. Cleopatra was used all
Speaker 2: these things that well, there was no CVS or of
Speaker 2: you know, Lord Lord and Taylors. She could go to
Speaker 2: Everything came from the earth, and so what never changes truths.
Speaker 2: The scriptures are built on truth. So we started looking
Speaker 2: at the Bible and the and the and the botanicals
Speaker 2: that existed at the time. Some have have gone.
Speaker 1: You really genuinely are telling me you have a skincare
Speaker 1: line based on the reading of the Bible. Yes, I
Speaker 1: am both appalled and delighted.
Speaker 2: To hear that. Well, if it weren't two thousand years
Speaker 2: ago for the greatest seductress of all time, Cleopatra, why
Speaker 2: would it not work for for me and for you.
Speaker 2: It's then the beauty of it is. It's called Nila.
Speaker 2: It's not out yet. I mean, we've been in a
Speaker 2: trust tests, you know, tiles for and my skin has
Speaker 2: never been better than it's been in my entire life.
Speaker 1: You know, you do it well, I have to say,
Speaker 1: but listen now what you say tracked me talking about
Speaker 1: the skin, Caroline, I want to talk to you about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not even that yet.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about it.
Speaker 2: No interest in.
Speaker 1: Talking about that. Your epiphany, your your moment, your your
Speaker 1: literal come to Jesus moment.
Speaker 2: Okay, the beginning, This is not the moment I'm thinking of.
Speaker 2: But I fell asleep. I was a little girl living
Speaker 2: in Annapolis, Maryland. I looked up and it was fall,
Speaker 2: and my daddy and I were raking leaves. And I
Speaker 2: looked up and there was Jesus sitting on a cloud.
Speaker 1: And you actually saw yes in my dream and your
Speaker 1: dream in my dream.
Speaker 2: And he looked down at me, Jesus or growing up,
Speaker 2: growing up Jesus, and he looked down at me and
Speaker 2: he smiled, and I knew it was Jesus.
Speaker 1: That was it, That was the dream.
Speaker 2: Years later, now I'm twelve years old, I believe, and
Speaker 2: I go to a moon. Not unlike the new movie
Speaker 2: Jesus Revolution, which is out right now, that's the time
Speaker 2: period that I was growing up in in the early
Speaker 2: in the seventies. Okay, I graduated in nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 2: That was when the Jesus Revolution was really starting and
Speaker 2: I was already a part of it. But when I
Speaker 2: was twelve before that, there was a movie called The
Speaker 2: Restless Ones, first movie that the Billy Graham Organization ever
Speaker 2: put out, and if you watch it today, it's one
Speaker 2: of the most dreadful wrek you know, you just even
Speaker 2: my kids looked at it. They looked at it, and
Speaker 2: they looked at my mom. This is awful, I said.
Speaker 2: At the time, it wasn't. Billy Graham was so so
Speaker 2: criticized for it. You can't make a movie the devil
Speaker 2: lives in the movie theaters, The devil lives in the
Speaker 2: bass drum, the devil lives in the nightclubs.
Speaker 1: I can't argue that what always attracted me to all
Speaker 1: of that stuff.
Speaker 2: I know it, and left to your own devices, it
Speaker 2: still would. But here's the thing. Billy Graham knew something
Speaker 2: that something deeper because he didn't have a religion. He
Speaker 2: had relationship with the living God. You know how anti
Speaker 2: religion I am.
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's why I'm kind of fascinated by because you're
Speaker 1: your faith is unshakable, but but you're it's almost like
Speaker 1: a contempt for religion.
Speaker 2: Not the contempt I have for religion is not that
Speaker 2: people love their churches and love to go and hear
Speaker 2: the word of God. All of that is wonderful. I
Speaker 2: have contempt, just like Jesus did for the leaders of
Speaker 2: the church, that do not feed the flock, that abuse
Speaker 2: the privilege of power, that misuse it. So I'm talking
Speaker 2: about organized religion that has gotten so big and so powerful,
Speaker 2: not unlike our government, that it thinks that it is God.
Speaker 2: Instead of teaching the people, you know, to follow their
Speaker 2: their their their good shepherd, they said, no, no, you're
Speaker 2: our flock.
Speaker 1: To me, it sounds like you're a little bit Did
Speaker 1: you ever in kind or the writings of the Desert Fathers?
Speaker 1: Have you ever come across that evagras of Pontus or
Speaker 1: origin of this but no? Origin of Alexandria was was
Speaker 1: an early Christian theologian from Alexandria in Egypt. I think
Speaker 1: it was like his father was a Christian martyr. He
Speaker 1: was origin was I think around two hundred AD, so
Speaker 1: pre church.
Speaker 2: Well not really pre Catholic Church, yes, quay pre Catholic,
Speaker 2: but the original Church with Jesus.
Speaker 1: Yes, so he's pre Catholic Church. And he he got
Speaker 1: excommunicated five hundred years after he died. They got very
Speaker 1: angry at him because he said God can exist only
Speaker 1: in the mind. There can be no physical.
Speaker 2: Manifestation.
Speaker 1: Manifestation in the sense of which is not what you
Speaker 1: want to hear if you're selling chach because I guess
Speaker 1: and can you.
Speaker 2: Say it right? It is basically means crap.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think that I think that to me,
Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds to me like you you're Christianity
Speaker 1: for want of a bad word, that that you're following
Speaker 1: of Jesus has a very early early Christian feel about it,
Speaker 1: like first one hundred years after after.
Speaker 2: The Yes, that's actually when when people who don't just
Speaker 2: just it's not that they're ignorant people, they just don't know.
Speaker 2: There's different kinds of ignorance in the world. There's I
Speaker 2: just didn't know that, and then there's willful ignorance. And
Speaker 2: I find so much so many Western Christians are are
Speaker 2: ignorant about their early history, ignorant about what the Word
Speaker 2: of God actually says, only because they've never been taught.
Speaker 2: And that's what I get angry about that that we
Speaker 2: we have people graduating from from seminaries all over the
Speaker 2: world right now who don't even know that Jesus wasn't
Speaker 2: a carpenter. That's a bad trans lady. No, see, there
Speaker 2: you go. This is the kind of stuff from studying
Speaker 2: rabbinically like I have now for a long time. You
Speaker 2: find out what the word tecton in the New Testament
Speaker 2: is the original word for builder slash architect, for what
Speaker 2: Joseph and his and Jesus did to make a living
Speaker 2: before Jesus became a rabbi. And so when and it
Speaker 2: all goes back, always to bad translations of the Word
Speaker 2: of God. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, ancient Hebrew,
Speaker 2: which is still the same Hebrew. Yah, I don't, but
Speaker 2: I studied the reading, you know, I study it, But
Speaker 2: I don't. I can't sit down and read backwards and
Speaker 2: all that stuff. No. I study with the world's greatest
Speaker 2: biblical scholars. Many of them are Messianic and otherwise they
Speaker 2: are rabbis, and rabbis are the most learned people in
Speaker 2: the world according to scriptures. I mean, they just are.
Speaker 2: They go ten layers.
Speaker 1: They don't always agree, Rabbi.
Speaker 2: No, that's the whole point of being a rabbi. They
Speaker 2: fight all the time. Because it's not fight. They argue,
Speaker 2: and they argue, and by arguing, this is what's wrong
Speaker 2: with culture. They learn and they start to ponder another
Speaker 2: person's opinion and their take on something. And that's what
Speaker 2: good honest discussion should be like respectful disagreement.
Speaker 1: I think we could talk about religion for a long time,
Speaker 1: and in our friendship we have talked about religion for
Speaker 1: a long time. Yes, But there's another part of you.
Speaker 1: There's another area of you which I think most people
Speaker 1: are aware of. But even if they don't know, you are.
Speaker 1: You're a very earthy person. You're funny, you have a
Speaker 1: little body, You're a deliciously body sense of humor. You're
Speaker 1: thank you and you are you're funny, and you're naughty,
Speaker 1: and you're earthy. And I think, and I mean all
Speaker 1: of these things things as compliments because you know, I
Speaker 1: love you and and I find that fascinating with the
Speaker 1: what I understand of uh trinal holiness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what holy actually means set apart for
Speaker 2: sacred use. Okay, it doesn't mean perfect, it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: you got a halo over your head. It means set
Speaker 2: apart for sacred use in the in Hebrew. And that's
Speaker 2: what I am. And I think every human being is
Speaker 2: wired to be set apart for sacred use. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to stop having the sense of humor I have.
Speaker 2: I was woven in my mother's womb before the dawn
Speaker 2: of time. So is my mother, so is your mother,
Speaker 2: so is Liam and Milo. They just it's that's that's God,
Speaker 2: that's Jehovah, God Elohim, the creator of all things. And
Speaker 2: so that's not going to change. And the world in
Speaker 2: quotes does that it tries to take change us and
Speaker 2: make us cookie cutter Christians or cookie cutter Jews or
Speaker 2: Mormon Are you know it's all the same.
Speaker 1: Have you run a conflict? Oh?
Speaker 2: All my life. I was kicked out of the Brownies.
Speaker 2: I was kicked when I was I was kicked out
Speaker 2: a few years later. I was kicked out of Sunday School.
Speaker 2: A few years later, I was kicked out at the
Speaker 2: age of seventeen the America's Junior Miss pageant. Why because
Speaker 2: I questioned things that were stupid and I knew innately
Speaker 2: that that's not true. I'll tell you a perfect example
Speaker 2: of religion and relationship. In Jesus's day, when he walked
Speaker 2: on the earth, which he did for thirty three years,
Speaker 2: the people who followed Jesus would understand, because they'd grown
Speaker 2: up this way, that the trees and there were no
Speaker 2: big trees then there was just sort of glorified bushes.
Speaker 2: Back then, Israel was a desert. Those trees, the trees
Speaker 2: that you go to Israel and you see now have
Speaker 2: been planted since it became a nation in nineteen forty eight.
Speaker 2: It was, Oh, my gosh, you and I are going
Speaker 2: to go one day and it's going to it'll continue
Speaker 2: to blow mine and it's going to your years ago,
Speaker 2: flying off your okay, and so it's so so interesting.
Speaker 2: So back then, in Jesus's day, certain trees represented certain
Speaker 2: groups of people within the Jewish culture, the Jewish people.
Speaker 2: Just one that everybody would know is the olive tree
Speaker 2: represented God's people.
Speaker 1: The Jews.
Speaker 2: To them, what what the sycamore fig tree represented? Back
Speaker 2: then were the religious leaders of the day, the Pharisees
Speaker 2: and the Sadducees. Jesus was cursing them for not caring,
Speaker 2: not feeding the people, lying to them, cheating from them,
Speaker 2: misrepresenting themselves, abusing their power. That any of that sounds
Speaker 2: just familiar. Y, nothing's changed, because human nature doesn't. That's
Speaker 2: why we need the Holy Spirit to to live within us.
Speaker 2: That's the only thing that changes are innate nature.
Speaker 1: All right, So you you live with the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1: So that I'm going to say that I.
Speaker 2: Think you do too, But that's another discussion.
Speaker 1: We're not talking about me. So the idea of joy
Speaker 1: within you, yes, is from that, I think. I think
Speaker 1: it's fair to say it.
Speaker 2: Comes from knowing where I came from and who I
Speaker 2: came from.
Speaker 1: Now, give me an example in your life in the
Speaker 1: secular world. Give me a piece of adversity in your
Speaker 1: life where you turned immediately to that to if you like,
Speaker 1: seal the wood to stop the floor. You know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Is that something?
Speaker 2: There's so many. I have a lifetime of it, a
Speaker 2: lifetime of history of That's what keeps me going. I
Speaker 2: still have tough things that happened to me on a
Speaker 2: daily basis. But as I said earlier, I cling tighter
Speaker 2: to the one I know has never betrayed me, never
Speaker 2: let me down, never lied to me. My rock, the
Speaker 2: rock of my salvation. And so I'll finish the little
Speaker 2: story about finding Frank an hour later, and he's gone.
Speaker 2: He's gone. At first, I tried to resuscitate him and
Speaker 2: I can't. Cody, my son, is home. He hears me
Speaker 2: calling for him, He comes down, he gives the compressions,
Speaker 2: and I am sobbing by that time, because I know
Speaker 2: that code and Cody's still trying, and I'm crying, but
Speaker 2: they were not tears of anything, not fear. No, there
Speaker 2: was total peace in me. There was no anxiety in me.
Speaker 1: Were you aware of this at the time, Yes.
Speaker 2: Of course. And the Bible says it's called the peace
Speaker 2: that passes all understanding. You don't understand what that means
Speaker 2: until you're in a position where you know. I shouldn't
Speaker 2: be feeling joyful right now. I was sobbing tears of
Speaker 2: joy because the look on his face was this, and
Speaker 2: you can't see me over the airwaves, but I'm showing you, Craig.
Speaker 2: It was like wonder, wonder, And even Cody stopped doing
Speaker 2: the compressions and he says, Mom, look he's smiling, and
Speaker 2: I said, I know, honey, he's with Jesus. And Jesus
Speaker 2: took his breath away. And that's exactly what happened. And
Speaker 2: so we instead of people talking about this tragedy of
Speaker 2: Frank dying. No, Frank had been to Israel with me
Speaker 2: by that time. He'd found out that he did that
Speaker 2: having a religion all of his life was worthless. He
Speaker 2: found out by studying the word of God, that he
Speaker 2: had a relationship with the living God, and that is
Speaker 2: the difference between night and day.
Speaker 1: Are you a believer in the continuation of a form
Speaker 1: of consciousness of life after death? Oh of course, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, nobody exemplified that more than Jesus. They thought
Speaker 2: he was dead, a big surprise three days later, a resurrected.
Speaker 2: And you know what I love about that resurrection. It's
Speaker 2: one of my favorite stories in the Bible. If you
Speaker 2: don't know it, that basically Jesus it's morning time, it's
Speaker 2: Sunday morning, and nobody could come. The women in Jesus's
Speaker 2: life were the most unafraid, They were the most loved
Speaker 2: because they were basically considered useless in that society. Back then.
Speaker 2: You were there for sex, you were there to have
Speaker 2: to prove to you know, to give babies to the
Speaker 2: powerful full. But for the most part, women were considered
Speaker 2: less than chattel, you know they were. They weren't even
Speaker 2: even Mosaic law considered a full human being. We have
Speaker 2: so much of that still in our world today. Jesus
Speaker 2: came along and said, no, you are equal. You are
Speaker 2: equal in God's kingdom. You are daughters of Abraham. You
Speaker 2: are daughters of the king. You are going to be
Speaker 2: a co heir with me to God's kingdom. This is
Speaker 2: why the women were there at the cross, only one man,
Speaker 2: the apostle John, the only one man. And at the
Speaker 2: at the grave on Sunday morning when the sun came up, Uh,
Speaker 2: the women were there. And the first person that that
Speaker 2: that Jesus appeared to was Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus had
Speaker 2: cast seven demons out of. We would call that today
Speaker 2: mental illness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the demons thing is that's going to talk to
Speaker 1: you saying about yes, the demons are the again when
Speaker 1: I've told you about the Desert Fathers, origin of Alexandria,
Speaker 1: Evagrius of Pontus. These are early Christian theologians and mystics,
Speaker 1: and they talked about demons in the way that we
Speaker 1: today talk about character defects. Right, And it seems to
Speaker 1: me sometimes in early Church thing and perhaps later Church think.
Speaker 1: I don't know much about Church, but it seems to
Speaker 1: me that a law of almost psychotherapy comes from from
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Is like trying to get rid
Speaker 1: of the negative aspects of your own consciousness, your own yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: unfortunately do that who put them there in the first place.
Speaker 2: Well, that's why I'm so glad you asked, because I
Speaker 2: just got an answer to that. I've been studying all
Speaker 2: my life basically with the world's greatest biblical scholars in Israel,
Speaker 2: and it's always in Genesis. It talks about at the
Speaker 2: dawn of creation, how God there was an assembly, there
Speaker 2: was a council of the heavenly realms. That means it
Speaker 2: wasn't just Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God there
Speaker 2: and the Father there were there were other entities.
Speaker 1: Are you and you believe like like like a big
Speaker 1: kind of like game of Thronings Lord of the Rings thing?
Speaker 1: Do you think?
Speaker 2: Or you know, maybe this is why I haven't read
Speaker 2: so many of these other things that people say, have
Speaker 2: you read? Have you read of your head? Right, I've
Speaker 2: been studying this my entire life, and I don't, and
Speaker 2: I've barely scratched the surface. You know, if somebody says,
Speaker 2: go read this, somebody I would respect, and now I would,
Speaker 2: because you have said it. I would read the Book
Speaker 2: of Enoch. I would read some of the town some
Speaker 2: of the the deeper Kabbalah stuff which comes from a
Speaker 2: good place of early Judeo Judaic mysticism. And but but
Speaker 2: I for now it takes everything that with the brain cells,
Speaker 2: I still have left to study what it really. I've
Speaker 2: learned it the wrong way for so many years, Craig
Speaker 2: that I'm going to spend the rest of my life
Speaker 2: trying to unlearn what wasn't true. Like Jesus was not
Speaker 2: a carpenter. That's a bad translation of the world did
Speaker 2: and he cursed the what the tree represented. But the
Speaker 2: Bible talks about Jehovah Elohim creator, talks about the lesser
Speaker 2: Eloheim gods. In the scripture, it says, and the lesser gods, Well,
Speaker 2: what's that? How's that work? He said, you shall have
Speaker 2: no other god before me. He meant, the ultimate epitome
Speaker 2: of the God has So there you think that it
Speaker 2: all started back then.
Speaker 1: So it's there's a God, yes, but there's also like
Speaker 1: a bunch of other slightly lesser, naughty gods.
Speaker 2: Well, they all started out as God's creation, and some
Speaker 2: of them rebelled as a story and Satan who is
Speaker 2: the you know, he's the god of chaos. If God,
Speaker 2: my god, Jehovah Eloheim is the god of shalom. People
Speaker 2: think shalom just means peace. It does not. Peace is
Speaker 2: one of the parts of shalom. And it's almost like mahallo.
Speaker 2: It's just becomes sort of, hey, shalom shalom. You know, no, God,
Speaker 2: God is shalom. That's every attribute of God that makes
Speaker 2: him God, faithfulness, justice, peace, joy, your joy, miracles, glory, righteousness,
Speaker 2: all those things. That's shaloon.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let me ask you this then, because I'm
Speaker 1: going to steer you back around to what we talked
Speaker 1: a little bit about earlier, which was the idea of
Speaker 1: a life after death, because I think a lot of people,
Speaker 1: particularly in the more naive agnostic, atheistic community communities is
Speaker 1: the wrong word, but realm, realm the idea that religion
Speaker 1: is all about life after death. It's all about you know,
Speaker 1: And so because it's an unprovable situation while you're alive,
Speaker 1: I would ask you do you have a conception of it?
Speaker 1: Do you have and are you certain of if it exists?
Speaker 1: And if it does exist, what it looks like.
Speaker 2: You know, you're so smart to say that it's in
Speaker 2: the suite, bye and bye. That's what so many people
Speaker 2: live their life. If I can just get this through
Speaker 2: this life. It's gonna be perfect one day. You know
Speaker 2: well that what Jesus came to show us is yes,
Speaker 2: there will be a new a new heaven and a
Speaker 2: new Earth, and it will be perfect and every tear
Speaker 2: will be dried. And know there will be no pain,
Speaker 2: and there will be the perfection that God had originally
Speaker 2: placed us, and he put us in a garden. Whether
Speaker 2: you believe in that as a as a as a
Speaker 2: real place or as a metaphor, it was perfect. That's
Speaker 2: what He always always meant for us, is the garden
Speaker 2: where he Why did he need us to be born?
Speaker 2: Did he need to create us? Why did he create
Speaker 2: us with free will? You know, he could have created
Speaker 2: a bunch of robots and we would have done everything
Speaker 2: he wants. No, I know, because they they want they'd
Speaker 2: want to they want they want to be they want
Speaker 2: to be God. Sorry, Ultimately, these robots are good. There's
Speaker 2: gonna be so much smarter than us. And that's what
Speaker 2: happened in the original story. Suffice to say, nothing is
Speaker 2: new under the sun, and the things that we battle
Speaker 2: with today, like Mary Magdalen at the Cross, I was
Speaker 2: going to finish that story Jesus. She doesn't recognize him
Speaker 2: in the morning because it's early morning.
Speaker 1: It's dawn.
Speaker 2: She's come. She believes he's died. She saw him die.
Speaker 2: She was at the cross, watched him, watch them throw
Speaker 2: the spear in his and the blood and the water
Speaker 2: gush shout. She saw his suffering that They never left
Speaker 2: the cross and he was there from nine in the
Speaker 2: morning till three in the afternoon when they pronounced him dead, which,
Speaker 2: interestingly enough, greg at three o'clock. They call it the
Speaker 2: ninth hour. That is when all of the animal sacrifices
Speaker 2: at the temple take place at three o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker 2: So Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb while they were
Speaker 2: actually sacrificing a lamb in the inner court, this Holy
Speaker 2: of Holies on the temple. Jesus naked. He was not
Speaker 2: You've always seen him on the cross with the loincloth
Speaker 2: and all of that vest Society though that was the
Speaker 2: ultimate for them. They wanted to crucifer by you naked
Speaker 2: and as as vulnerable as anybody could be, and that
Speaker 2: was anybody that Christian naked.
Speaker 1: I think that also the ida, I mean the historical
Speaker 1: aspects of crucifixion, you know, the idea Spartacus and like
Speaker 1: I think like ten. I don't know what the number was.
Speaker 1: It was thousands of slaves were crucified on the Appian Way.
Speaker 2: That was their warning, you you mess with Rome, this
Speaker 2: is going.
Speaker 1: To be a d I mean that was I think
Speaker 1: Pompy that did that, which was run about the same
Speaker 1: time as or crisis. Maybe who did it run at
Speaker 1: the same time as Jesus of Nazareth.
Speaker 2: It was, it was It's one of the worst, they say,
Speaker 2: the worst death that's ever been contrived by.
Speaker 1: A human being. What crucifixion.
Speaker 2: Well, it's been some bad ones since.
Speaker 1: So listen. We we talked a lot about religion and
Speaker 1: clearly that is at the core of of who you are.
Speaker 2: Not religion, sorry, relationship, I do. It's a hard habit.
Speaker 2: You're a hard habit to break.
Speaker 1: This is another habit you've got. You will sing directly
Speaker 1: at people, which record, No, I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: I also find that, I quind I find it quite
Speaker 1: alarming and very endearing at the same time, A little
Speaker 1: bit like you. You are very much who you are and
Speaker 1: I and I love that, and I appreciate that about you,
Speaker 1: And I wonder do you ever when you when you
Speaker 1: get because you say things about Jesus Christ and a
Speaker 1: lot of people are very touchy about that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yes, do you ever It's not popular in
Speaker 2: all circles.
Speaker 1: Right, and not even that, I mean people who who
Speaker 1: are you know, followers of Jesus Christ or people who
Speaker 1: are Christians. You will have doctrinal differences differences with them,
Speaker 1: and people get very you know, heated about that. Do
Speaker 1: you ever do you ever feel like maybe you don't
Speaker 1: want to bring it up?
Speaker 2: You know, it goes back to that boldness that.
Speaker 1: I have from the Brownies.
Speaker 2: I was going to tell you that when I went
Speaker 2: to the movie. I went to the BILLI Gram movie
Speaker 2: and it was over, and I remember literally hearing the
Speaker 2: voice of Jesus again in my heart and he said, Kathy,
Speaker 2: I love you, and if you trust me, I will
Speaker 2: make something beautiful out of your life. That was it,
Speaker 2: you said, was the defining moment. I walked forward, literally
Speaker 2: gave my heart, even though my heart was already his.
Speaker 2: I just made sort of the public statement, yes, I
Speaker 2: am going to follow you. And that was the single
Speaker 2: greatest decision of my entire life.
Speaker 1: And that you feel that all adversity is coped because
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by people of faith. I am fascinated you
Speaker 1: always happen, Yeah, and of all doctrines, all faiths. So
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by it. I think it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm fascinated by yours because it is unshakable, which
Speaker 1: I suppose that's what faith is. Have you ever thought
Speaker 1: because faith is a.
Speaker 2: Gift, it's not because I have it innately, right, But
Speaker 2: the Scripture is very clear that faith, even even faith,
Speaker 2: I have to get from Him. So when I'm running
Speaker 2: out of it, I just cry out. The scripture is
Speaker 2: full of cry out to the Lord. He knows you,
Speaker 2: he created you, He knows you needed cry out and
Speaker 2: ask and you will receive.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you that because we're talking about joy.
Speaker 1: Were at some point the idea of running out of faith? Yes,
Speaker 1: describe describe for me a moment in your life where
Speaker 1: you had to You had to do that because you
Speaker 1: talked about Frank passing and that was clearly I thought, huge,
Speaker 1: Yes moment.
Speaker 2: Yes, almost thirty years of marriage, right?
Speaker 1: But is there is there a time like I'm trying
Speaker 1: to think of something more, No, something more mundane, sure
Speaker 1: something more.
Speaker 2: The times that my faith was most tried, Yes is
Speaker 2: the way I can answer it, and took me to
Speaker 2: my knee, my knees more often than a normal day would.
Speaker 2: When I was accused of sweatshot violations, when I was
Speaker 2: accused of abusing children.
Speaker 1: And scratch, that was one of the most.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was one of the most. I couldn't really,
Speaker 2: Lord really, Frank and I had just opened up a
Speaker 2: fourteen million dollar home for aids and crack babies in
Speaker 2: New York during the pandemic. Every bit of the money
Speaker 2: from my Walmart clothing line went towards building that home
Speaker 2: where nobody would even hold an aid's baby. Only Princess
Speaker 2: Diana was doing that. And then and so I'm now
Speaker 2: we've built a home from scratch. It was used to
Speaker 2: be the old Ronald McDonald house. It was before that,
Speaker 2: it was a woman's convent. And we just bought it,
Speaker 2: tried for two with two million dollars to renovate it
Speaker 2: for these babies. Couldn't because of the laws. Anytime you
Speaker 2: kept dealing with diseases and babies, and you know, tried to.
Speaker 2: We had to tear it down and start from scratch.
Speaker 2: And it cost fourteen million dollars. And that's where my
Speaker 2: Walmart money went. You know, I was taking you know,
Speaker 2: money that I earned honestly and put it giving it away.
Speaker 2: They never the people came against me, never visited Cassidy's
Speaker 2: place or Cody House once. They just stood up like
Speaker 2: they're doing in culture, the culture now cancel culture, and
Speaker 2: accused me of something so that they would. The guy
Speaker 2: that did it said he was a human rights activist. No,
Speaker 2: he was an attorney who worked for Unite the Apparel right. Yes,
Speaker 2: and you know what he said to me later. Now
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say that privately, I'll tell you. Okay,
Speaker 2: nobody knows this, but it's it's interesting. But anyway, we
Speaker 2: got laws passed, we got we got I got legislation passed.
Speaker 2: I was suing the State of New York to a
Speaker 2: blind HIV testing because babies were being born who shouldn't
Speaker 2: be born with the AIDS virus or just with the
Speaker 2: full blown AIDS. We found out with all of our
Speaker 2: studying that if if a baby got a certain no,
Speaker 2: if a mother got cocktail of certain drugs while she
Speaker 2: was pregnant, it would go from lessen forty percent down
Speaker 2: to it less an eight percent chance the child would
Speaker 2: be born with the disease. Wow, And I said then,
Speaker 2: and they had c d C, the wonderful CDC had
Speaker 2: blinded all HIV testing in the clinics so they could
Speaker 2: track it, not do anything about it, just track it.
Speaker 2: And we knew that that there was there was hope.
Speaker 1: There was hope, there was a treatment for y for
Speaker 1: women who were had HIV and were pregnant.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I said, it was being with held. And
Speaker 2: there are all kinds of different privacy issues that were involved,
Speaker 2: especially with gay men who were legitimately were worried about
Speaker 2: if it's if their status was known, they might you know,
Speaker 2: And and I respected that, but at that time, you know,
Speaker 2: this was about dying babies. To me, I said, you
Speaker 2: guys can do with your you can march, you can
Speaker 2: do and you can fight your battles in court. But
Speaker 2: this is of great urgency. There's a way we can
Speaker 2: save lives. You guys, not just the men. Don't mean that.
Speaker 2: I'm at the world. And so I sat, and I
Speaker 2: one night with the Governor George Pataki at a swanky
Speaker 2: party in the Hampton's at the home of the Revlon
Speaker 2: Ronald Ronald Proman's not widow, but divorced. She was a
Speaker 2: friend of mine, Claudia Colen, beautiful woman. She said, Kathy,
Speaker 2: I know what you're doing. I'm sitting here next to
Speaker 2: the Governor. I said, Oh, the poor governor.
Speaker 1: He was gonna stuck with.
Speaker 2: Me for two I'm now I'm suing the governor.
Speaker 1: Understand, I'm sitting next to him apartment Yes, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: that's good, Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that you know what. He's such a good
Speaker 2: decent man. I'd met him before. And when I say
Speaker 2: I was suing him, the organization that I worked with,
Speaker 2: the Association and Benefit Children, had sued the State of
Speaker 2: New York two other times and won both times too,
Speaker 2: So we're an adversary to be dealt with. But I
Speaker 2: told him everything, and back then I knew everything about this.
Speaker 2: I knew every statistic. I don't anymore. This was a
Speaker 2: long time ago, but I remember it. Boys, I remember
Speaker 2: sitting in that and he sat and listened to me
Speaker 2: with such respect and so quiet. Asked a couple of
Speaker 2: different questions. I had the answers, and he said to
Speaker 2: me at the end of the evening, three things he said,
Speaker 2: I never knew this.
Speaker 1: Really, A politician said that.
Speaker 2: He said, yes, that's what I thought. I never knew this.
Speaker 2: Number two, sometime we're on the wrong side of this issue.
Speaker 1: A politicians said that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Third one, I'm going to do something about that.
Speaker 1: No, no, you're crazy.
Speaker 2: Now, Frank was sitting at a different table, and I
Speaker 2: remember driving home with him and I said, I think
Speaker 2: he heard me. He was, I think so, honey. I
Speaker 2: don't know if that if he's going to have the guts,
Speaker 2: the balls, whatever it takes to do the right thing,
Speaker 2: but I know he heard me. And within one month,
Speaker 2: Governor Pattaki stood in the garden of the Cody House
Speaker 2: on ninety first Street in New York City and announced
Speaker 2: the unblinding of HIV testing for the state of New York.
Speaker 2: Long story short, For the first time in history since
Speaker 2: the HIV AIDS start, it was the first time the
Speaker 2: death rate went down because the birth rate, it was,
Speaker 2: you know, because the babies were living right, they were surviving.
Speaker 2: And within one year after that, every state unblinded HIV testing.
Speaker 2: Not because I did the brave thing, but because Governor
Speaker 2: Prattaki did. There there are still people in this world
Speaker 2: who are there for the right reasons. And when we
Speaker 2: fight a good fight and we back it up with science,
Speaker 2: and we back it up with good will and prayer,
Speaker 2: miracles still happen every day.
Speaker 1: There's an interest in word you use. You use the
Speaker 1: word science, and a lot of people on maybe I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say my say to the fence
Speaker 1: because that's not true. I don't have a sight of
Speaker 1: the fancy on the defenseless. I'm kind of wondering.
Speaker 2: So your defense.
Speaker 1: Again, yeah, endsless, it's best. But a lot of people
Speaker 1: think that science and faith are in conflict. They are
Speaker 1: things that are in conflict. Do you don't see it
Speaker 1: that way?
Speaker 2: Well, science lives exactly alongside faith when you know what
Speaker 2: the faith is based on what it really says there
Speaker 2: is it's perfect. The world as what was created was
Speaker 2: mathematically perfect. I'm sorry, but that's not random. That's a
Speaker 2: that's a mind and a being that we can never
Speaker 2: ever comprehend. But we can, we can bow to it,
Speaker 2: and we can in our own ways be humble before
Speaker 2: it and say, Lord, I know I'm I'm not perfect.
Speaker 2: I know you created me for good things. You created
Speaker 2: me for something better than what I'm settling for. I
Speaker 2: need your help. All God wants, you know, he says
Speaker 2: in scripture, somebody says, I don't want your sacrifices. I
Speaker 2: want you to know me.
Speaker 1: And you think mathilation and science is the knowledge of God.
Speaker 2: Well, God says in the Old Testimony, he said, look
Speaker 2: at the heavens they have they have all knowledge and
Speaker 2: all wisdom is there. But but but religion came along
Speaker 2: and said, can't can't worship the stars. Can't worship the stars?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not. He didn't say worship them, said
Speaker 2: study them, study them, seek, seek, And it's just so exciting.
Speaker 2: That's what makes my faith more real every day. A
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, the Lord gave me something that
Speaker 2: I've tried to live as my mantra mantra ever since.
Speaker 2: And it said, Kathy, there's a scripture that says the
Speaker 2: joy of the Lord is your strength. Well, okay, that's
Speaker 2: in uh what is it Angie's uh Neamiah eight ten.
Speaker 1: I was going to say that, but I didn't want
Speaker 1: to get it wrong.
Speaker 2: I eight ten. The joy of the Lord is your strength. Okay,
Speaker 2: I believe that. But later in life, maybe maybe when
Speaker 2: I was going through the really really rough times of
Speaker 2: Frank's infidelity came a year later, after the all the
Speaker 2: terrible stuff with these sweatshops.
Speaker 1: It was it was a very embarrassing time, I would imagine.
Speaker 2: Mostly for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, I look, I know this. I know that.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing that at the time. I was working
Speaker 1: on the Drew Carrey s. I remember talking to Drew
Speaker 1: and we saw it in the newspaper and he said
Speaker 1: to me, would like to be Frank Gifford this morning? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it.
Speaker 2: No, non men came up to him all the time.
Speaker 2: It's better you than me, Frank. I mean. It was disgusting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and he was a good man who did a stupid thing.
Speaker 2: It happens, It happens, It happens, and women or after
Speaker 2: my husband, he was Kevin Costner of his day. You know,
Speaker 2: he was the Brad Pitt of his day, and they
Speaker 2: all and it was blatant right in front of me,
Speaker 2: and you know, I lived with that, but I really
Speaker 2: believed that he was he was stronger than that. And
Speaker 2: it was also sick these six years old when that happened.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he was, you know, twenty two, and
Speaker 2: he knew better. He knew better, but he was you
Speaker 2: know what. We can go into that another time as well.
Speaker 2: But I remember the Lord saying to me, Kathy, this
Speaker 2: is what I want you to think all the time.
Speaker 2: My joy is non negotiable. Oh boy, okay, I'll know.
Speaker 2: You know when you and I were doing our movie together,
Speaker 2: then came you available on Netflix.
Speaker 1: Left.
Speaker 2: We had to go through a negotiation with you for
Speaker 2: the price that would be fair. You gave a little.
Speaker 1: It's a negotiation.
Speaker 2: That's our business.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 2: And time off you wanted to, you know, time to
Speaker 2: go back to your the most beautiful home in Scotland
Speaker 2: and visit your family. Don't like the wife, but that's
Speaker 2: another story and it's the process. So do you understand negotiation?
Speaker 2: But he said your joy? Don't let anybody mess with
Speaker 2: your joy, Kathy. And my joy comes from knowing every
Speaker 2: morning when I wake up that I am a child
Speaker 2: of the living God.
Speaker 1: Were you so you? Were you able to forget? Is
Speaker 1: that how you were able to forgive Frank the way.
Speaker 2: I was able to forgive Frank, Howard Stern, you, everybody
Speaker 2: else has broken my heart.
Speaker 1: Oh come on, you're in good company. I's gonna say
Speaker 1: these guys make a lot.
Speaker 2: More money than me, Hey, wait till this podcast takes
Speaker 2: off anyway, Yeah, what was your question?
Speaker 1: That was? Was that how you were able to forgive Frank.
Speaker 2: The way I was able to forgive Frank was at
Speaker 2: the minute I knew it was true because I believed
Speaker 2: him and he said it didn't happen. I had no
Speaker 2: reason not to because my husband stood by me through
Speaker 2: the sweatshop stuff. He stood by me through the uh.
Speaker 1: People people live when they're panicked. Yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2: And he realized he was caught. He had no idea
Speaker 2: that they had tape, you know, audio tape. He just
Speaker 2: knew that that until he found and he said, no,
Speaker 2: it wasn't. You know, the people were always trying to
Speaker 2: set us up, always trying to just draw us. First
Speaker 2: of all, that goes back to the ones who were
Speaker 2: fallen from grace. You know, God's grace is forever, but
Speaker 2: they choose, they chose to walk away from God Almighty
Speaker 2: and try to be God. That's never going to work
Speaker 2: out in anybody's life. You know, you've seen and I
Speaker 2: have seen a parade of people who who started to
Speaker 2: believe that they were God Almighty boy, and then where
Speaker 2: are they there?
Speaker 1: Happens in show business from time to.
Speaker 2: You know, Jesus said, you know, what does it profit
Speaker 2: a person if they gain the whole world and lose
Speaker 2: their very soul. Jesus didn't want them to lose their souls.
Speaker 2: That's why he came.
Speaker 1: And so, and I'm going to push you on this
Speaker 1: because the forgiving of infidelity for a person like you,
Speaker 1: who I know what you stand for, and I know
Speaker 1: what you're like, and I know how much you value
Speaker 1: loyalty and truth and friendship. Yes, that that kind of
Speaker 1: betrayal would be horrendous and so for you that must
Speaker 1: have been a mountain to climb to get.
Speaker 2: No, it was an instant really, yep. The minute I
Speaker 2: knew it was true, God showed me almost like a scrawl.
Speaker 2: I don't do a computer, but now that I've seen it,
Speaker 2: it was like a scrowl of everything that God had
Speaker 2: already forgiven me for. He said, Kathy, every time you
Speaker 2: asked for forgiveness, I forgave you. You cannot ask for
Speaker 2: forgiveness if you're not willing to give it. It was instantaneous.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. It's amazing.
Speaker 2: And that the exact opposite with Howard Stern the story.
Speaker 2: He started saying the most horrendous things about me. I'd
Speaker 2: never met the man, never listened to his show, who
Speaker 2: never watched it, never met him, nothing, And he started
Speaker 2: just just I would. People would tell me, Gosh, I
Speaker 2: can't believe what Howard Stern, I said, don't tell me.
Speaker 2: I don't want to know. But the minute I heard
Speaker 2: that he was doing that kind of thing, I started
Speaker 2: praying for him. I said, Lord, he must be so
Speaker 2: hurt inside to hurt people he doesn't even know, to
Speaker 2: be so cruel to people that are you know, don't
Speaker 2: live cruel lives. I you know, I'm not perfect, but
Speaker 2: I wasn't out there hurting people. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: understand it, Lord, But you know why he doesn't hurt people,
Speaker 2: hurt people. So I said, Lord, I'm just going to
Speaker 2: pray for him. I'm afraid that one day he'll come
Speaker 2: to know, you, come to know how precious.
Speaker 1: He is to you, and you two became friends, right.
Speaker 2: Well, you're my friend, right he became. Thirty years later
Speaker 2: he asked me to forgive him, and he said yes,
Speaker 2: and he said, will you forgive me? And I said,
Speaker 2: I said, Howard.
Speaker 1: Of course he's a remarkable.
Speaker 2: I don't know him still to this day, but.
Speaker 1: He's a I think he's fascinating man.
Speaker 2: Oh he is, and is brilliant, and he's used his
Speaker 2: communication skills, I think for in a dark way, when
Speaker 2: God always intended for that brilliant mind and that brilliant
Speaker 2: sense of humor and all those things to be used
Speaker 2: for his glory, not his own, not his God's glory.
Speaker 2: And so anyway, what I just would, I would pray
Speaker 2: for him every day. I just did. And so I
Speaker 2: sent him a note when he got divorced front from
Speaker 2: his wife, and I hand delivered it because he lived
Speaker 2: across the street, so he lived in Regis's building, and
Speaker 2: I said, I'll just take it over. I didn't trust
Speaker 2: it getting to him otherwise, you know, And I left it.
Speaker 2: And the next day he's talking on the air about
Speaker 2: you know what, I got a note from you know.
Speaker 2: And I didn't hear this either, but I was told,
Speaker 2: and he goes the nicest note, just the nicest note
Speaker 2: from of all people. And he says and then they all, oh,
Speaker 2: she's just doing it so you'll like her. Just no,
Speaker 2: that's bullshit. She's the phone of you. I'm so whatever,
Speaker 2: And so he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2: So that was years and years years later. Now I
Speaker 2: won't go through the whole story unless you want to hear.
Speaker 2: But I look up one day at the studio. I'm
Speaker 2: at the Today Show now, and I look up and
Speaker 2: downstairs there's a monitor. But downstairs, one floor beneath me
Speaker 2: is where you've been there, Craig, where you walk in
Speaker 2: and you go to the studio. I'd never seen anyone
Speaker 2: with an entourage as big as this, because he was
Speaker 2: there to announce that he was going to be a
Speaker 2: judge on America's Carta. So he's making that announcement and
Speaker 2: it was going to be on NBC and all that.
Speaker 2: So I, oh, there's Howard.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I didn't think anything of it, just said another prayer
Speaker 2: for him. Probably, I don't know. I'm getting hair. I
Speaker 2: just come in from from Greenwich, so my makeup's not done,
Speaker 2: my hair is wet. I'm in my little schlap shows.
Speaker 2: But like when we're on setee, you've seen me like that,
Speaker 2: and I'm hot, aren't I?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? It's an amazing thing to see.
Speaker 2: Anyway, So the Lord says, Cathy, I want you to
Speaker 2: go downstairs, right, now and say hello to Howard and
Speaker 2: welcome them and tell and wish him well with the show.
Speaker 2: And I went, okay, Lord, Now that they had made
Speaker 2: huge effort at NBC to make sure that I didn't
Speaker 2: run to him and he didn't run into me, because
Speaker 2: there was a lot at stake, and they and my
Speaker 2: hair and makeup people have been don't don't let Kathy
Speaker 2: out of your sight. All of a sudden, I get
Speaker 2: up and I say to my hair and makeup people,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'll be right back.
Speaker 1: She's walking, she's walking, she's walking. It was just like.
Speaker 2: And so Sarah I started singing again, and anyway, I
Speaker 2: would just go downstairs. Nobody tries to stop me. I
Speaker 2: walk in and I walked right up to Howard, who's
Speaker 2: six six. I was five six at the time. I've
Speaker 2: shrunk a little and I and I'm flat footed, and
Speaker 2: I look up and I'm going Howard, Howard, and he's
Speaker 2: looking around because he's got a good foot taller than
Speaker 2: I am. And all of a sudden he looks down
Speaker 2: and sees his little elf in front of him, and
Speaker 2: he goes, WHOA. He just I remember him just sort
Speaker 2: of physically backing up and going rarely is the man speechless.
Speaker 2: He was speechless, and I put my hand out to him, said, Hi,
Speaker 2: Kathy Lee. I think it's about time we meet, don't
Speaker 2: you think And he put his hand out and I said,
Speaker 2: I just want to wish you well and with the
Speaker 2: show and with your life, and you just take care
Speaker 2: of yourself. That was it. I turned and walked away.
Speaker 2: He was one thing he did said. I said, yeah, crazy, right,
Speaker 2: the show is crazy. I said, it's crazy, and I
Speaker 2: just laughed and went upstairs. They go, what did you do?
Speaker 1: I said?
Speaker 2: I said, I wish him well with the show. Let's
Speaker 2: get my hair and makeup do. I'm a little behind.
Speaker 2: And I left that day for La because the Cody
Speaker 2: was graduating from a usc film school that the next day.
Speaker 2: So it's flying into to be a family for a while.
Speaker 2: I land and turned my phone on and there's a message.
Speaker 2: My friend Jill Martin had given him my number because
Speaker 2: she knew it was important, and and it was him saying,
Speaker 2: can I say bad words on your podcast?
Speaker 1: Thank?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean obviously I raised it, but it was
Speaker 2: it was a million fuck words. It was like, I'm
Speaker 2: so fucked. This is Howard Stern I'm just I'm such
Speaker 2: a fucking It's just I can't tell you exactly what
Speaker 2: he said, but there I could tell the man was
Speaker 2: in great pain and he said, I'm so, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: I need you to forgive me. I need to talk
Speaker 2: to you. He was so nice to me today and
Speaker 2: I've just been wrong and I'm just he was so contrite,
Speaker 2: he was so he broke my heart. But there was
Speaker 2: no number. I couldn't call him. It was just a
Speaker 2: you know, call her idea unknown. So I said, well, Lord,
Speaker 2: it's in your hands. I thanked God. I said, wow, incredible.
Speaker 2: Thirty years later, Lord, you're answering. This man is seeking people.
Speaker 2: He has hurt to say, I'm sorry, forgive me. Every
Speaker 2: person needs to do that in their life. All of
Speaker 2: us do to have peace. Shalom, God shaloon. So anyway,
Speaker 2: that night, we're at dinner at the Beverly Hills Hotel
Speaker 2: and I see no caller idea and I'm going, oh,
Speaker 2: it's him. He's trying again. I got up. My husband
Speaker 2: was not happy, and either was Cody. You're not going
Speaker 2: to talk to him, mom, I said, oh, yes, i am.
Speaker 2: I'll be back. You guys continue at dinner. I went
Speaker 2: into a private room there and I guess for about
Speaker 2: a half an hour, maybe not that much, maybe twenty minutes.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Those things are surreal anyway, you don't
Speaker 2: really know. I don't check my phone if I knew
Speaker 2: how to. And he was so incredibly contrite. He said,
Speaker 2: I cannot believe how kind you were to me. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, of course I was, you were, And
Speaker 2: I said, and so do you forgive me? He said, Kathy,
Speaker 2: I've just I've been I've fucked up my entire life,
Speaker 2: my whole life, and I'm getting cat counseling. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to be a better person, trying to go
Speaker 2: to everybody that i've heard, and I know what, I've
Speaker 2: been horrible to you, and I keep hearing wonderful things
Speaker 2: about you, and I just kept doing it. And I said, why, Howard,
Speaker 2: why did you He goes because I hated you? And
Speaker 2: I said, but why we had never even met. He said,
Speaker 2: you were everything I wasn't. You're Jewish, but you believe
Speaker 2: in Jesus. How's that you're a musician, but you just
Speaker 2: sing old songs like that your father likes you. Just
Speaker 2: I just found a million things to make fun of you.
Speaker 2: For I didn't. I thought you were a complete fun
Speaker 2: The only way I could deal with somebody leader like
Speaker 2: he was to write you off as a phony. And
Speaker 2: he had a group of minions, of course, and yes,
Speaker 2: people who just fed into that. That's okay anyway, I said,
Speaker 2: do you forgive me? I said, Howard, of course I do.
Speaker 2: But I just need you to know that I forgave
Speaker 2: you thirty years ago, and I've been praying for you
Speaker 2: every day since. And and he goes, what I said, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I knew this day would come. I didn't know when.
Speaker 2: You've certainly taken your time. We said a little lad,
Speaker 2: and I said, would you like to come to dinner
Speaker 2: at my house? He goes, you'd have me for dinner?
Speaker 2: I said, of course, I'm not sure Frank will, but
Speaker 2: I will. You know that kind of thing. And we
Speaker 2: never did do that, but I've run into him several
Speaker 2: times since and it's very warm between us, and there's
Speaker 2: no tension, there's no none of that. It's forgiven. It's
Speaker 2: not forgotten. It was a huge thing. But the how
Speaker 2: you forgive is immediately because you realize that that's what
Speaker 2: Jesus did. He said, you're not supposed to forgive once
Speaker 2: you forgive seven times seventy times, which is in the Bible,
Speaker 2: the perfection everything.
Speaker 1: It's all all the Mathema.
Speaker 2: Every if Jesus turned six pots of water into wine,
Speaker 2: there's a reason that's six pots. I've written a book
Speaker 2: called The Rock, The Road, and the Rabbi with one
Speaker 2: of the great Biblical rabbinic scholars, and every single number
Speaker 2: he knows the meaning of, because the rabbis do. And
Speaker 2: when you find out what it means, it is so
Speaker 2: mind boggling, and it just confirms and affirms your faith.
Speaker 2: This is not a random thing. This is sovereign God
Speaker 2: being sovereign God in spite of whatever else happens in
Speaker 2: the in whatever realm. And I believe there's many realms,
Speaker 2: you know, who the hell do we think we are
Speaker 2: to think that there's just us in this world? You know,
Speaker 2: I don't believe that. I don't know what else is there.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to put God in a box
Speaker 2: and say he only created us. You know, No, no,
Speaker 2: I don't believe that. And I think that's what eternity
Speaker 2: is all about. Once the next step comes and you
Speaker 2: asked about that, earlier. It's we're going to be learning,
Speaker 2: we're going to be growing. We're not going to be
Speaker 2: sitting around on clouds playing the harp. I don't want
Speaker 2: to go there, you know. I get tired of the
Speaker 2: harp in about five minutes. Yeah, it's there's a hotel
Speaker 2: lollby vibe about a harp. I'm going to be honest.
Speaker 2: I love that you're talking about time because we are
Speaker 2: out of it. Well, I really hope not.
Speaker 1: But what I means, but what I mean giving me
Speaker 1: the hook, I'm giving you the hook for no nan,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take care and we're going to get
Speaker 1: something to you.
Speaker 2: Okay, my darling.
Speaker 1: That sounds great, but nobody else can come to that.
Speaker 1: Now you can tell me the stories that you weren't
Speaker 1: going to sell.
Speaker 2: I've told you lots of stuff that will never, you know,
Speaker 2: never be said publicly because I trust you. That's right,
Speaker 2: that's right. I trust you, and I love you, and
Speaker 2: you've let You've always let me be me. And I
Speaker 2: do adore your wife. And she's the one who said
Speaker 2: I sent her give you the script. You gave it
Speaker 2: to her. And she does have a beautiful name. Her
Speaker 2: name is me. Yeah, and she's a beautiful woman from
Speaker 2: New Hampshire originally. But anyway, I know all of this.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. You're your listeners who may not know.
Speaker 2: And she she did not. Didn't she turn to you
Speaker 2: and say you've got to do this.
Speaker 1: She said that. She said, you got to do this movie.
Speaker 1: She also said, and I'm going to cuss a little here,
Speaker 1: but you're going to like this. She said, that is
Speaker 1: Kathy Lee Gifford. She's a goddamn American treasure, and you're
Speaker 1: going to do this movie. She did, She did.
Speaker 2: She never told me that.
Speaker 1: You told me that.
Speaker 2: I'm serious. I'm not doubting it, but I'm that's so nice.
Speaker 2: But you told me she said she had. Boy, does
Speaker 2: she have you down?
Speaker 1: That we gotta go? I love you.
Speaker 2: Believe what you've heard about this man. He's awesome.
Speaker 1: My baby,