WEBVTT - Kathie Lee Gifford

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, mydeas. The Joy podcast will be taking the holidays off.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you can too and have a lovely time

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<v Speaker 1>however you like to spend it, and with whomever you

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<v Speaker 1>like to spend it with. We'll be back on January

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<v Speaker 1>the fourteenth with the lovely Lisa Lobe. That's more alliteration

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<v Speaker 1>than I thought I was going to have when I

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<v Speaker 1>started talking today. But there you are, the lovely Lisa

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<v Speaker 1>Lobe on the fourteenth of January, and have a lovely

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<v Speaker 1>holiday time, my friends. Be careful, stay safe, see you soon.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Craig Ferguson. This podcast is called Joy.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not Rocket Science. I talk to people I like

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<v Speaker 1>about their pursuit of happiness. Here's Kathy Lee Gifford, an

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<v Speaker 1>American legend. She loves Jesus' TV country music Enjoy.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so happy less I with the biggest smaller said,

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<v Speaker 2>I can just see my my Howard.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah tomorrow. Yeah we're ready to go. Yeah, Yeah, we

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<v Speaker 1>will just go. Can I be a little more, a

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<v Speaker 1>little louder in here because I'm going it was a

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<v Speaker 1>little more of himself. I want a little more of

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<v Speaker 1>you too. Yeah. I like to you know, only you

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<v Speaker 1>did it.

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<v Speaker 2>Just because of that slot. So this is called joy.

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<v Speaker 1>It's called joy.

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<v Speaker 2>Lord, please bless this time together with Craig can help

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<v Speaker 2>us not to be too naughty. And Jesus name man.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I don't look, I am not want to scoff

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<v Speaker 1>about prayer. No, no, I am not. I am not

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<v Speaker 1>a I wouldn't describe myself as a person of faith,

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<v Speaker 1>but I am a person of doubt, which is on

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<v Speaker 1>the way to faith. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and some people's journeys are quite long, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Taking a while. But I I feel like that prayer

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<v Speaker 1>you sent up there about Lord help us not be naughty.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that in a hurtful way.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just think I I'd love to be naughty

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<v Speaker 2>with you anytime you're ready and you get rid of

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<v Speaker 2>that you know woman, that's why is she still there?

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<v Speaker 1>Wait? Wait a minute. You know sometimes I think she

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<v Speaker 1>asked herself the same question. So listen.

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<v Speaker 2>She's a type of woman you want to hate because

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<v Speaker 2>she's so beautiful, she's so smart, she's so everything, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you meet her and she's you. You love her.

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<v Speaker 1>You're talking about my wife, no, the.

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<v Speaker 2>Other one you have.

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<v Speaker 1>But listen, I know I know that you're very private

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<v Speaker 1>and I respect and listen. You know what, Let me

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<v Speaker 1>just say at the start of this because because this

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<v Speaker 1>this is an unusual set of conversations for me. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that we are going to talk about joy and we

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<v Speaker 1>are going to talk about that, and I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>talk to you about it because you and I have

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<v Speaker 1>a friendship, yes, which I love you, I adore you,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't agree.

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<v Speaker 2>With you in a lot of things, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that the most important things.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's true. But but I think that

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<v Speaker 1>I see so much of like people can't be friends

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<v Speaker 1>unless they all think along.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the cancel the cancel thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that seems a little I don't know, that's stupid.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we can learn from everybody we sit down and

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<v Speaker 2>have a conversation with Why would we want to block off?

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, it's the antithesis of my faith, which

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<v Speaker 2>is I don't say that my Christian faith because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>I was born to a Jewish father and a shicks

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<v Speaker 2>some mother, you know, which is a gentile mother, and

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't grow up with any organized religion in my

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<v Speaker 2>life at all until all of us came to an

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<v Speaker 2>understanding of faith in the person of Jesus who in

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<v Speaker 2>the in the Hebrew is called Yeshua, and all of

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<v Speaker 2>my family did. And so when they say, what do

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<v Speaker 2>you believe, I said, I'm a I'm a follower of Jesus.

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<v Speaker 2>And even you and I have conversations quite a bit

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<v Speaker 2>when we are on set for our movie Than Came You,

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<v Speaker 2>which is available on Netflix now if you want to know.

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<v Speaker 2>But but you talked. I said, you said that to me,

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<v Speaker 2>And I've told this story on a couple of occasions

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<v Speaker 2>because we had a break in shooting, as you always

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<v Speaker 2>do in a movie. Sure, and you said, and I

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<v Speaker 2>can't do you without doing you. But because I have

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<v Speaker 2>your head, I used to be in my head, I

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<v Speaker 2>had you down perfectly. So I won't do it today.

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<v Speaker 2>I will avoid it.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I give you permission? It's really all right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I just you know, I'm sitting across from you,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's been a couple of years and I've just

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<v Speaker 2>been too long. It's and they put you too far

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<v Speaker 2>away from me. I can't even reach you under the table.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, well, then somebody's reached me.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>You got you got your channel change and stick down there.

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<v Speaker 1>Something's happening.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you said basically to me, Kathy, why do you

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<v Speaker 2>love me and Ricky meaning ger vas right, we were

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<v Speaker 2>not great guys? Is the way you said it? And

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, that's so not true.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Ricky's a great guy, you think that, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you continue to say, we don't believe like you,

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<v Speaker 2>We don't believe in your faith, we don't probably don't

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<v Speaker 2>vote the way you do. But why do you love

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<v Speaker 2>us so much? Because you knew I did? And I said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>first of all, you're unbelievably lovable, and you're aging like

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<v Speaker 2>a fine wine that you no longer drink. But anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>you are created in the image of God, both you

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<v Speaker 2>and Ricky. And plus you're the funniest, smartest, dearest people.

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<v Speaker 2>There's so many good things to love about you. Why

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't I love you? To which here's the thing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you said, no person of faith has ever told us

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<v Speaker 2>before that they love us, And I said to you, well,

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<v Speaker 2>then you've never met one before.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I don't to be fair, I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>about Ricky. I mean, he probably gets told people love

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<v Speaker 1>them all the time. But when I was well, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to see people of faith. That was what

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<v Speaker 1>that was about. He gets told he's what's not to

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<v Speaker 1>love about him?

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<v Speaker 2>Except maybe I can't think of something right, But you

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<v Speaker 2>know you love what your love.

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<v Speaker 1>But let but let me just say, let me let

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<v Speaker 1>me talk to you a little bit about joy. We

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<v Speaker 1>will talk to you about your about your faith and

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<v Speaker 1>about Jesus. Yeah, all right, good, all right, So we're

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<v Speaker 1>done with that. Now. I want to talk to you

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about joy because the reason why I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to do to have discussions with people about it

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<v Speaker 1>is because you, to me, are an example of someone

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<v Speaker 1>who has gone through, particularly recently with Frank and all

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<v Speaker 1>that that You've gone through a lot of stuff. And

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<v Speaker 1>I saw you. I remember seeing you. I think the

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<v Speaker 1>Today Show wasn't long after Frank had passed, and you

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<v Speaker 1>had that kind of quite speedy vibe of someone who

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<v Speaker 1>was in grief and in shock, which is but but

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<v Speaker 1>you also had something else, which is I suppose is

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<v Speaker 1>your faith. And you'll tell me, but you are someone

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<v Speaker 1>to me who seems to be an adversity able to

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<v Speaker 1>learn to a joy of some kind or maybe maybe

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<v Speaker 1>it's wrong to say, but manufacture it in yourself or

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<v Speaker 1>procure or find it from somewhere. Would that be accurate.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I'm sure it seems like that to some people.

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<v Speaker 2>It was actually a week after Frank had passed. Now

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<v Speaker 2>I had found just for people who don't know the story,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's been almost eight years now since he passed. Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>he had been sick. He had a lot of CTE,

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<v Speaker 2>chronic traumatic and cephalop I can't say the last word,

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<v Speaker 2>and cephalopathy, which is brain damage concussion after concussion after.

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<v Speaker 1>From the football.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a Sunday morning, a beautiful Sunday morning. It

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<v Speaker 2>was hod Hiss birthday, August ninth, and I remember it's

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<v Speaker 2>the things you remember crazy. But this is why, this

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<v Speaker 2>is in answer to why I was the way I

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<v Speaker 2>was during this quite would have been traumatic experience for

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<v Speaker 2>somebody that didn't already cling to God the way I have.

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<v Speaker 2>For so many years. I've always said, you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no bad time to find God, but the worst times,

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<v Speaker 2>you're grateful you already cling to him. He just cling

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<v Speaker 2>tighter at a time like that. And so I heard

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<v Speaker 2>him get on his scale. The man was one week

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<v Speaker 2>shy of eighty five, and he naked. He looked from

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<v Speaker 2>the back. The man was thirty. You know, he worked

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<v Speaker 2>out still he's he exercised his brain. What was left

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<v Speaker 2>of it, We didn't know, because you don't know about

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<v Speaker 2>CTE until you do an autopsy, and we weren't going

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<v Speaker 2>to do that on him. Before he was gone.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought that would have been It's just not people

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<v Speaker 1>fring on it. It might even be legal in some states.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, not anymore. Eugenics. Baby, bye bye. You're

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<v Speaker 2>breathing air and leaving a carbon footprint. Bye bye. No

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<v Speaker 2>more so anyway, No, he was. He was an extraordinary

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<v Speaker 2>man to the day that he did pass. But I

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<v Speaker 2>heard him get on his scale, which he did every day,

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<v Speaker 2>and it said your weight is one hundred and seventy

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<v Speaker 2>eight pounds, and I remember thinking, oh, it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a good day. That was his playing weight for

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<v Speaker 2>all those years, and that was his favorite weight. So

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<v Speaker 2>he was extremely disciplined in lots of week now. He

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<v Speaker 2>enjoyed life like crazy, and God knows he made mistakes.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody knows that like I do. But he was a good, good,

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<v Speaker 2>solid man of a different era, cramp, a different generation.

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<v Speaker 2>He grew up during the Depression, ate dog food as

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<v Speaker 2>a child and was grateful to have it. His father

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<v Speaker 2>was an itinerant oil worker. I mean they lived. I

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<v Speaker 2>think I don't even remember thirty different places while he

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<v Speaker 2>was growing up. So he never was able to put

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<v Speaker 2>down roots anywhere. But the one thing that could he

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<v Speaker 2>could stand out at every time he moved to a

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<v Speaker 2>different place was his athleticism, and so that came to

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<v Speaker 2>be the thing. He was a terrible student. Later when

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<v Speaker 2>he when he got a scholarship to USC to play football,

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<v Speaker 2>he became their their finest scholar athlete. He was so

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<v Speaker 2>grateful to have an education.

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to ask you about that one was

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<v Speaker 1>fran Was Frank a grateful man? Was he a joyful man?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's such a great question, because you would

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<v Speaker 2>think he was grateful. And that's why we didn't bring

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<v Speaker 2>a class action suit once we got the results of

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<v Speaker 2>his brain scans. You know a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 2>had whose loved ones had worked in the NFL joined

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<v Speaker 2>this class action suit because the NFL knew about this.

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<v Speaker 2>They did and and and Frank was was He said,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter what you find out, Kathy, you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>I'm gone, I don't want to be a part of that.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want our family to be He said, I

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<v Speaker 2>am so grateful for the life that I have had

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<v Speaker 2>that the NFL afforded me. He would have. He was

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<v Speaker 2>when he wasn't playing for the Giants, and he went

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<v Speaker 2>back to California and sold for fertilizer in Bakersfield. That's

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<v Speaker 2>what the NFL was at that time. No, but he

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<v Speaker 2>was a full time football player. They only played it

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<v Speaker 2>till the you know, for the season. Everybody else had

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<v Speaker 2>jobs other ways. You know, a lot of them came

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<v Speaker 2>back from World War Two with half of their life

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<v Speaker 2>shot up. You know Connorley, Connerley, who was his best

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<v Speaker 2>friend there and was the quarterback, and they became dear,

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<v Speaker 2>dear friends. And he had just just come back from

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<v Speaker 2>World War Two, so you know, it's a different world.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm twenty three years younger than Frank was to the day,

0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.640
<v Speaker 2>so I would hear the stories he would tell, and

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<v Speaker 2>I would have such respect an admiration for the for

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<v Speaker 2>the the kind of human beings that existed. Then we

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<v Speaker 2>hear so much today about the entitlement, about the cancel culture,

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<v Speaker 2>all of that stuff which just demeans and diminishes the

0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:51.320
<v Speaker 2>human spirit. Everything Frank talked to me about celebrated it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I want to I want to talk to you

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about the council culture thing, because I

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<v Speaker 1>I do have a knee jerk reaction a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>out of myself. But at the same time, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I look at my you know, my my

0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.319
<v Speaker 1>oldest boy is twenty two, so he's kind of in

0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:14.280
<v Speaker 1>that in that world, that world, and and you you know,

0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.520
<v Speaker 1>and I want to I want to have an open

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.720
<v Speaker 1>mind about the youth, you know, like you have an

0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:27.559
<v Speaker 1>open mind about people who are not Messianic, Jewish Christian.

0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.040
<v Speaker 2>Which is most of the world, right, which is I

0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 2>don't want to cut off most of the world because

0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>they don't agree with me.

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:34.800
<v Speaker 1>Right, and I don't want to. I don't want to

0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:39.439
<v Speaker 1>cut off the I'm not sure with cancel culture if

0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.200
<v Speaker 1>it's if it's really like that for most of them,

0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think for the kids. I mean when

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.880
<v Speaker 1>I say them, I mean I'm talking about young people.

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:49.560
<v Speaker 2>I think, what do you call it? Gen X or

0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Z g Z. Now what do you do now we've

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.400
<v Speaker 2>run out of that, We're going to pick up the

0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:55.120
<v Speaker 2>Greek alphabet.

0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I think that my youngest boy, Liam

0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 1>is twelve, so he's he's just coming into a generation.

0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. What the generation is called. But I think

0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:05.560
<v Speaker 1>they're going to be different.

0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.640
<v Speaker 2>He's twelve, you know what, can we just say he's twelve.

0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.920
<v Speaker 1>He's twelve, and he's adorable, gorgeous.

0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he reminds me of Stewie and family guy.

0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I don't think he would be he would be

0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>insulted by that.

0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 2>I think he'd be proud. Word is a badge of honor.

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:24.480
<v Speaker 2>I want to call Dad, call me Snewie.

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Although I think I'm a little like Peter Griffin

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:28.840
<v Speaker 1>as well, which is a little si. I'm like that.

0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:30.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm Brian the Dog.

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.520
<v Speaker 1>You're well, yeah, a little bit. Yeah with the wine.

0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Hey, this is a this is a latte. I'm about

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 2>to graduate though, are you listen?

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>There's another thing that I admire about you. You can drink.

0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.000
<v Speaker 1>I can't drink.

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I know you can't.

0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.040
<v Speaker 1>But have you ever had a problem? Do you ever

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:49.040
<v Speaker 1>feel like oh boy?

0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Times definitely.

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:52.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. That makes me feel oh yeah yeah.

0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Here's the thing. If Jesus is my model and

0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:59.760
<v Speaker 2>we go back to Yeshua Jesus, right, people have no

0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.360
<v Speaker 2>idea you because they don't study rabbinically. The Western Christian

0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.480
<v Speaker 2>world has no idea of our roots. They don't. I've

0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.920
<v Speaker 2>had people even say to me through the years, now

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Jesus was, Jesus is Catholic. Right, I'll go, do you

0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.439
<v Speaker 2>know what year the Catholic Church came to be? I

0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 2>forget now, it's like five ninety a d or something

0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>like that. Yeah, I said, Jesus had long since died, resurrected,

0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.960
<v Speaker 2>ascended to heaven. And no, he was not Catholic. He

0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.480
<v Speaker 2>was a Jew, a rabbinic. It was a rabbi, and

0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 2>he was a Jew and a perfect Jew.

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.680
<v Speaker 1>Was there a moment that kicked this off for you?

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.680
<v Speaker 2>I remember it as I'm going to be seventy years

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.840
<v Speaker 2>old this year. I can't even that's not true?

0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Good? Do I know? I need to know which moisturizer

0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:48.240
<v Speaker 1>you use, because.

0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 2>You if only it was more just moisturizer. You know

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 2>what it's it's that that's for that's for our lunch afterwards,

0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 2>where you're not usually talking. Yeah, yeah, no, I do.

0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually developing a skin line. And all of the

0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 2>botanicals they are in the skin line come from the Bible.

0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.160
<v Speaker 2>What yes, Who was the greatest seductress of all time?

0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Salomi?

0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:18.600
<v Speaker 2>No? Even before that, Cleopatra Cleopatra. Cleopatra was used all

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.600
<v Speaker 2>these things that well, there was no CVS or of

0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, Lord Lord and Taylors. She could go to

0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Everything came from the earth, and so what never changes truths.

0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>The scriptures are built on truth. So we started looking

0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.520
<v Speaker 2>at the Bible and the and the and the botanicals

0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.680
<v Speaker 2>that existed at the time. Some have have gone.

0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 1>You really genuinely are telling me you have a skincare

0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.160
<v Speaker 1>line based on the reading of the Bible. Yes, I

0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.320
<v Speaker 1>am both appalled and delighted.

0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.320
<v Speaker 2>To hear that. Well, if it weren't two thousand years

0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.760
<v Speaker 2>ago for the greatest seductress of all time, Cleopatra, why

0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.680
<v Speaker 2>would it not work for for me and for you.

0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.960
<v Speaker 2>It's then the beauty of it is. It's called Nila.

0:15:58.120 --> 0:15:59.880
<v Speaker 2>It's not out yet. I mean, we've been in a

0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:05.120
<v Speaker 2>trust tests, you know, tiles for and my skin has

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 2>never been better than it's been in my entire life.

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:09.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, you do it well, I have to say,

0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.400
<v Speaker 1>but listen now what you say tracked me talking about

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.440
<v Speaker 1>the skin, Caroline, I want to talk to you about.

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:16.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not even that yet.

0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 1>I want to talk about it.

0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:19.120
<v Speaker 2>No interest in.

0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Talking about that. Your epiphany, your your moment, your your

0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 1>literal come to Jesus moment.

0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, the beginning, This is not the moment I'm thinking of.

0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.200
<v Speaker 2>But I fell asleep. I was a little girl living

0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.800
<v Speaker 2>in Annapolis, Maryland. I looked up and it was fall,

0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:38.560
<v Speaker 2>and my daddy and I were raking leaves. And I

0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.120
<v Speaker 2>looked up and there was Jesus sitting on a cloud.

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 1>And you actually saw yes in my dream and your

0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 1>dream in my dream.

0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.360
<v Speaker 2>And he looked down at me, Jesus or growing up,

0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.480
<v Speaker 2>growing up Jesus, and he looked down at me and

0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.200
<v Speaker 2>he smiled, and I knew it was Jesus.

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 1>That was it, That was the dream.

0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Years later, now I'm twelve years old, I believe, and

0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I go to a moon. Not unlike the new movie

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.240
<v Speaker 2>Jesus Revolution, which is out right now, that's the time

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.200
<v Speaker 2>period that I was growing up in in the early

0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.400
<v Speaker 2>in the seventies. Okay, I graduated in nineteen seventy one.

0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.119
<v Speaker 2>That was when the Jesus Revolution was really starting and

0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.199
<v Speaker 2>I was already a part of it. But when I

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.520
<v Speaker 2>was twelve before that, there was a movie called The

0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Restless Ones, first movie that the Billy Graham Organization ever

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.639
<v Speaker 2>put out, and if you watch it today, it's one

0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 2>of the most dreadful wrek you know, you just even

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:29.240
<v Speaker 2>my kids looked at it. They looked at it, and

0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 2>they looked at my mom. This is awful, I said.

0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.359
<v Speaker 2>At the time, it wasn't. Billy Graham was so so

0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.960
<v Speaker 2>criticized for it. You can't make a movie the devil

0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.560
<v Speaker 2>lives in the movie theaters, The devil lives in the

0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.159
<v Speaker 2>bass drum, the devil lives in the nightclubs.

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I can't argue that what always attracted me to all

0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 1>of that stuff.

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.520
<v Speaker 2>I know it, and left to your own devices, it

0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 2>still would. But here's the thing. Billy Graham knew something

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.280
<v Speaker 2>that something deeper because he didn't have a religion. He

0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.439
<v Speaker 2>had relationship with the living God. You know how anti

0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:07.280
<v Speaker 2>religion I am.

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, That's why I'm kind of fascinated by because you're

0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:16.280
<v Speaker 1>your faith is unshakable, but but you're it's almost like

0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.320
<v Speaker 1>a contempt for religion.

0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:23.359
<v Speaker 2>Not the contempt I have for religion is not that

0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.440
<v Speaker 2>people love their churches and love to go and hear

0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.400
<v Speaker 2>the word of God. All of that is wonderful. I

0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 2>have contempt, just like Jesus did for the leaders of

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.560
<v Speaker 2>the church, that do not feed the flock, that abuse

0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the privilege of power, that misuse it. So I'm talking

0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.520
<v Speaker 2>about organized religion that has gotten so big and so powerful,

0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.080
<v Speaker 2>not unlike our government, that it thinks that it is God.

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.720
<v Speaker 2>Instead of teaching the people, you know, to follow their

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.680
<v Speaker 2>their their their good shepherd, they said, no, no, you're

0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:55.359
<v Speaker 2>our flock.

0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.399
<v Speaker 1>To me, it sounds like you're a little bit Did

0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:02.480
<v Speaker 1>you ever in kind or the writings of the Desert Fathers?

0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.159
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever come across that evagras of Pontus or

0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:10.520
<v Speaker 1>origin of this but no? Origin of Alexandria was was

0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:17.920
<v Speaker 1>an early Christian theologian from Alexandria in Egypt. I think

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.360
<v Speaker 1>it was like his father was a Christian martyr. He

0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.600
<v Speaker 1>was origin was I think around two hundred AD, so

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:27.000
<v Speaker 1>pre church.

0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.119
<v Speaker 2>Well not really pre Catholic Church, yes, quay pre Catholic,

0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.600
<v Speaker 2>but the original Church with Jesus.

0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so he's pre Catholic Church. And he he got

0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.120
<v Speaker 1>excommunicated five hundred years after he died. They got very

0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:46.000
<v Speaker 1>angry at him because he said God can exist only

0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 1>in the mind. There can be no physical.

0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Manifestation.

0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.359
<v Speaker 1>Manifestation in the sense of which is not what you

0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.840
<v Speaker 1>want to hear if you're selling chach because I guess

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:00.280
<v Speaker 1>and can you.

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:05.760
<v Speaker 2>Say it right? It is basically means crap.

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, But I think that I think that to me,

0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.440
<v Speaker 1>it sounds it sounds to me like you you're Christianity

0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 1>for want of a bad word, that that you're following

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 1>of Jesus has a very early early Christian feel about it,

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.320
<v Speaker 1>like first one hundred years after after.

0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.399
<v Speaker 2>The Yes, that's actually when when people who don't just

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.080
<v Speaker 2>just it's not that they're ignorant people, they just don't know.

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.879
<v Speaker 2>There's different kinds of ignorance in the world. There's I

0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.479
<v Speaker 2>just didn't know that, and then there's willful ignorance. And

0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:42.000
<v Speaker 2>I find so much so many Western Christians are are

0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.960
<v Speaker 2>ignorant about their early history, ignorant about what the Word

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.159
<v Speaker 2>of God actually says, only because they've never been taught.

0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:52.200
<v Speaker 2>And that's what I get angry about that that we

0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.320
<v Speaker 2>we have people graduating from from seminaries all over the

0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.600
<v Speaker 2>world right now who don't even know that Jesus wasn't

0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:02.120
<v Speaker 2>a carpenter. That's a bad trans lady. No, see, there

0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.200
<v Speaker 2>you go. This is the kind of stuff from studying

0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.080
<v Speaker 2>rabbinically like I have now for a long time. You

0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 2>find out what the word tecton in the New Testament

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.280
<v Speaker 2>is the original word for builder slash architect, for what

0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.639
<v Speaker 2>Joseph and his and Jesus did to make a living

0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:24.080
<v Speaker 2>before Jesus became a rabbi. And so when and it

0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.440
<v Speaker 2>all goes back, always to bad translations of the Word

0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:32.399
<v Speaker 2>of God. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, ancient Hebrew,

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:37.760
<v Speaker 2>which is still the same Hebrew. Yah, I don't, but

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I studied the reading, you know, I study it, But

0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:42.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't. I can't sit down and read backwards and

0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:46.000
<v Speaker 2>all that stuff. No. I study with the world's greatest

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:52.000
<v Speaker 2>biblical scholars. Many of them are Messianic and otherwise they

0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.720
<v Speaker 2>are rabbis, and rabbis are the most learned people in

0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.680
<v Speaker 2>the world according to scriptures. I mean, they just are.

0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:00.000
<v Speaker 2>They go ten layers.

0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:01.320
<v Speaker 1>They don't always agree, Rabbi.

0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.239
<v Speaker 2>No, that's the whole point of being a rabbi. They

0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.200
<v Speaker 2>fight all the time. Because it's not fight. They argue,

0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:08.760
<v Speaker 2>and they argue, and by arguing, this is what's wrong

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.520
<v Speaker 2>with culture. They learn and they start to ponder another

0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.920
<v Speaker 2>person's opinion and their take on something. And that's what

0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.400
<v Speaker 2>good honest discussion should be like respectful disagreement.

0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.040
<v Speaker 1>I think we could talk about religion for a long time,

0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.359
<v Speaker 1>and in our friendship we have talked about religion for

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:34.920
<v Speaker 1>a long time. Yes, But there's another part of you.

0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.040
<v Speaker 1>There's another area of you which I think most people

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.840
<v Speaker 1>are aware of. But even if they don't know, you are.

0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:47.080
<v Speaker 1>You're a very earthy person. You're funny, you have a

0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:51.240
<v Speaker 1>little body, You're a deliciously body sense of humor. You're

0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.720
<v Speaker 1>thank you and you are you're funny, and you're naughty,

0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.520
<v Speaker 1>and you're earthy. And I think, and I mean all

0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:01.280
<v Speaker 1>of these things things as compliments because you know, I

0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:07.440
<v Speaker 1>love you and and I find that fascinating with the

0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:13.560
<v Speaker 1>what I understand of uh trinal holiness.

0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:17.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what holy actually means set apart for

0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:21.399
<v Speaker 2>sacred use. Okay, it doesn't mean perfect, it doesn't mean

0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:23.720
<v Speaker 2>you got a halo over your head. It means set

0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.200
<v Speaker 2>apart for sacred use in the in Hebrew. And that's

0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.879
<v Speaker 2>what I am. And I think every human being is

0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.240
<v Speaker 2>wired to be set apart for sacred use. I'm not

0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:37.119
<v Speaker 2>going to stop having the sense of humor I have.

0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.600
<v Speaker 2>I was woven in my mother's womb before the dawn

0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:41.560
<v Speaker 2>of time. So is my mother, so is your mother,

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 2>so is Liam and Milo. They just it's that's that's God,

0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:51.000
<v Speaker 2>that's Jehovah, God Elohim, the creator of all things. And

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.119
<v Speaker 2>so that's not going to change. And the world in

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.080
<v Speaker 2>quotes does that it tries to take change us and

0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.600
<v Speaker 2>make us cookie cutter Christians or cookie cutter Jews or

0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:01.760
<v Speaker 2>Mormon Are you know it's all the same.

0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Have you run a conflict? Oh?

0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 2>All my life. I was kicked out of the Brownies.

0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.919
<v Speaker 2>I was kicked when I was I was kicked out

0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:11.879
<v Speaker 2>a few years later. I was kicked out of Sunday School.

0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 2>A few years later, I was kicked out at the

0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:17.199
<v Speaker 2>age of seventeen the America's Junior Miss pageant. Why because

0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:21.000
<v Speaker 2>I questioned things that were stupid and I knew innately

0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:25.400
<v Speaker 2>that that's not true. I'll tell you a perfect example

0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:28.960
<v Speaker 2>of religion and relationship. In Jesus's day, when he walked

0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.439
<v Speaker 2>on the earth, which he did for thirty three years,

0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the people who followed Jesus would understand, because they'd grown

0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:40.480
<v Speaker 2>up this way, that the trees and there were no

0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:43.840
<v Speaker 2>big trees then there was just sort of glorified bushes.

0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Back then, Israel was a desert. Those trees, the trees

0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:49.600
<v Speaker 2>that you go to Israel and you see now have

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:52.320
<v Speaker 2>been planted since it became a nation in nineteen forty eight.

0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:54.879
<v Speaker 2>It was, Oh, my gosh, you and I are going

0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:57.400
<v Speaker 2>to go one day and it's going to it'll continue

0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:59.360
<v Speaker 2>to blow mine and it's going to your years ago,

0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:03.880
<v Speaker 2>flying off your okay, and so it's so so interesting.

0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:08.480
<v Speaker 2>So back then, in Jesus's day, certain trees represented certain

0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:11.879
<v Speaker 2>groups of people within the Jewish culture, the Jewish people.

0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Just one that everybody would know is the olive tree

0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:16.600
<v Speaker 2>represented God's people.

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:16.800
<v Speaker 1>The Jews.

0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:23.000
<v Speaker 2>To them, what what the sycamore fig tree represented? Back

0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:27.639
<v Speaker 2>then were the religious leaders of the day, the Pharisees

0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and the Sadducees. Jesus was cursing them for not caring,

0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:38.040
<v Speaker 2>not feeding the people, lying to them, cheating from them,

0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.240
<v Speaker 2>misrepresenting themselves, abusing their power. That any of that sounds

0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:46.840
<v Speaker 2>just familiar. Y, nothing's changed, because human nature doesn't. That's

0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:50.920
<v Speaker 2>why we need the Holy Spirit to to live within us.

0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:54.080
<v Speaker 2>That's the only thing that changes are innate nature.

0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.040
<v Speaker 1>All right, So you you live with the Holy Spirit.

0:25:57.359 --> 0:25:59.680
<v Speaker 1>So that I'm going to say that I.

0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 2>Think you do too, But that's another discussion.

0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:07.119
<v Speaker 1>We're not talking about me. So the idea of joy

0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:10.720
<v Speaker 1>within you, yes, is from that, I think. I think

0:26:10.720 --> 0:26:11.760
<v Speaker 1>it's fair to say it.

0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Comes from knowing where I came from and who I

0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:14.240
<v Speaker 2>came from.

0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:17.679
<v Speaker 1>Now, give me an example in your life in the

0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:22.000
<v Speaker 1>secular world. Give me a piece of adversity in your

0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:27.960
<v Speaker 1>life where you turned immediately to that to if you like,

0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:30.119
<v Speaker 1>seal the wood to stop the floor. You know what

0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:31.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean? Is that something?

0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:33.560
<v Speaker 2>There's so many. I have a lifetime of it, a

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:36.719
<v Speaker 2>lifetime of history of That's what keeps me going. I

0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:38.520
<v Speaker 2>still have tough things that happened to me on a

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:43.280
<v Speaker 2>daily basis. But as I said earlier, I cling tighter

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:47.040
<v Speaker 2>to the one I know has never betrayed me, never

0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 2>let me down, never lied to me. My rock, the

0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.840
<v Speaker 2>rock of my salvation. And so I'll finish the little

0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:57.960
<v Speaker 2>story about finding Frank an hour later, and he's gone.

0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:01.680
<v Speaker 2>He's gone. At first, I tried to resuscitate him and

0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:04.879
<v Speaker 2>I can't. Cody, my son, is home. He hears me

0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.120
<v Speaker 2>calling for him, He comes down, he gives the compressions,

0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:11.439
<v Speaker 2>and I am sobbing by that time, because I know

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:15.640
<v Speaker 2>that code and Cody's still trying, and I'm crying, but

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:21.320
<v Speaker 2>they were not tears of anything, not fear. No, there

0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:25.960
<v Speaker 2>was total peace in me. There was no anxiety in me.

0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:28.320
<v Speaker 1>Were you aware of this at the time, Yes.

0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Of course. And the Bible says it's called the peace

0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:33.960
<v Speaker 2>that passes all understanding. You don't understand what that means

0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:36.200
<v Speaker 2>until you're in a position where you know. I shouldn't

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:39.600
<v Speaker 2>be feeling joyful right now. I was sobbing tears of

0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:43.199
<v Speaker 2>joy because the look on his face was this, and

0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:46.080
<v Speaker 2>you can't see me over the airwaves, but I'm showing you, Craig.

0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:51.040
<v Speaker 2>It was like wonder, wonder, And even Cody stopped doing

0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 2>the compressions and he says, Mom, look he's smiling, and

0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.200
<v Speaker 2>I said, I know, honey, he's with Jesus. And Jesus

0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:02.399
<v Speaker 2>took his breath away. And that's exactly what happened. And

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.560
<v Speaker 2>so we instead of people talking about this tragedy of

0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:08.919
<v Speaker 2>Frank dying. No, Frank had been to Israel with me

0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:12.080
<v Speaker 2>by that time. He'd found out that he did that

0:28:12.200 --> 0:28:15.080
<v Speaker 2>having a religion all of his life was worthless. He

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:17.600
<v Speaker 2>found out by studying the word of God, that he

0:28:17.640 --> 0:28:21.639
<v Speaker 2>had a relationship with the living God, and that is

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:23.880
<v Speaker 2>the difference between night and day.

0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Are you a believer in the continuation of a form

0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:31.280
<v Speaker 1>of consciousness of life after death? Oh of course, yeah.

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, nobody exemplified that more than Jesus. They thought

0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:38.440
<v Speaker 2>he was dead, a big surprise three days later, a resurrected.

0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:39.959
<v Speaker 2>And you know what I love about that resurrection. It's

0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:43.360
<v Speaker 2>one of my favorite stories in the Bible. If you

0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:46.240
<v Speaker 2>don't know it, that basically Jesus it's morning time, it's

0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Sunday morning, and nobody could come. The women in Jesus's

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:54.040
<v Speaker 2>life were the most unafraid, They were the most loved

0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:58.120
<v Speaker 2>because they were basically considered useless in that society. Back then.

0:28:58.600 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>You were there for sex, you were there to have

0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:02.760
<v Speaker 2>to prove to you know, to give babies to the

0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:06.360
<v Speaker 2>powerful full. But for the most part, women were considered

0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>less than chattel, you know they were. They weren't even

0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:13.200
<v Speaker 2>even Mosaic law considered a full human being. We have

0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>so much of that still in our world today. Jesus

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:18.880
<v Speaker 2>came along and said, no, you are equal. You are

0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:21.760
<v Speaker 2>equal in God's kingdom. You are daughters of Abraham. You

0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:23.920
<v Speaker 2>are daughters of the king. You are going to be

0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:26.680
<v Speaker 2>a co heir with me to God's kingdom. This is

0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:29.320
<v Speaker 2>why the women were there at the cross, only one man,

0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:33.320
<v Speaker 2>the apostle John, the only one man. And at the

0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 2>at the grave on Sunday morning when the sun came up, Uh,

0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:41.440
<v Speaker 2>the women were there. And the first person that that

0:29:41.440 --> 0:29:46.120
<v Speaker 2>that Jesus appeared to was Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus had

0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 2>cast seven demons out of. We would call that today

0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 2>mental illness.

0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the demons thing is that's going to talk to

0:29:52.400 --> 0:29:56.080
<v Speaker 1>you saying about yes, the demons are the again when

0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.640
<v Speaker 1>I've told you about the Desert Fathers, origin of Alexandria,

0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 1>Evagrius of Pontus. These are early Christian theologians and mystics,

0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 1>and they talked about demons in the way that we

0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:11.040
<v Speaker 1>today talk about character defects. Right, And it seems to

0:30:11.080 --> 0:30:16.440
<v Speaker 1>me sometimes in early Church thing and perhaps later Church think.

0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:18.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't know much about Church, but it seems to

0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 1>me that a law of almost psychotherapy comes from from

0:30:26.880 --> 0:30:29.040
<v Speaker 1>that kind of thing. Is like trying to get rid

0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:35.040
<v Speaker 1>of the negative aspects of your own consciousness, your own yeah, yeah,

0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 1>unfortunately do that who put them there in the first place.

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's why I'm so glad you asked, because I

0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:43.640
<v Speaker 2>just got an answer to that. I've been studying all

0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:49.080
<v Speaker 2>my life basically with the world's greatest biblical scholars in Israel,

0:30:49.240 --> 0:30:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and it's always in Genesis. It talks about at the

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:55.520
<v Speaker 2>dawn of creation, how God there was an assembly, there

0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 2>was a council of the heavenly realms. That means it

0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:00.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't just Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God there

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:03.560
<v Speaker 2>and the Father there were there were other entities.

0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Are you and you believe like like like a big

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:07.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of like game of Thronings Lord of the Rings thing?

0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:08.320
<v Speaker 1>Do you think?

0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Or you know, maybe this is why I haven't read

0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:13.200
<v Speaker 2>so many of these other things that people say, have

0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:15.000
<v Speaker 2>you read? Have you read of your head? Right, I've

0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:17.200
<v Speaker 2>been studying this my entire life, and I don't, and

0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:20.120
<v Speaker 2>I've barely scratched the surface. You know, if somebody says,

0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:22.960
<v Speaker 2>go read this, somebody I would respect, and now I would,

0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:25.960
<v Speaker 2>because you have said it. I would read the Book

0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:29.480
<v Speaker 2>of Enoch. I would read some of the town some

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:35.000
<v Speaker 2>of the the deeper Kabbalah stuff which comes from a

0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:40.760
<v Speaker 2>good place of early Judeo Judaic mysticism. And but but

0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:44.280
<v Speaker 2>I for now it takes everything that with the brain cells,

0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:46.880
<v Speaker 2>I still have left to study what it really. I've

0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.480
<v Speaker 2>learned it the wrong way for so many years, Craig

0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>that I'm going to spend the rest of my life

0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 2>trying to unlearn what wasn't true. Like Jesus was not

0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:57.360
<v Speaker 2>a carpenter. That's a bad translation of the world did

0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:02.880
<v Speaker 2>and he cursed the what the tree represented. But the

0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Bible talks about Jehovah Elohim creator, talks about the lesser

0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Eloheim gods. In the scripture, it says, and the lesser gods, Well,

0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 2>what's that? How's that work? He said, you shall have

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:19.960
<v Speaker 2>no other god before me. He meant, the ultimate epitome

0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:22.880
<v Speaker 2>of the God has So there you think that it

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:23.840
<v Speaker 2>all started back then.

0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:27.400
<v Speaker 1>So it's there's a God, yes, but there's also like

0:32:27.440 --> 0:32:31.760
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of other slightly lesser, naughty gods.

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, they all started out as God's creation, and some

0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:37.440
<v Speaker 2>of them rebelled as a story and Satan who is

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.760
<v Speaker 2>the you know, he's the god of chaos. If God,

0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.520
<v Speaker 2>my god, Jehovah Eloheim is the god of shalom. People

0:32:45.520 --> 0:32:49.160
<v Speaker 2>think shalom just means peace. It does not. Peace is

0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 2>one of the parts of shalom. And it's almost like mahallo.

0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:56.040
<v Speaker 2>It's just becomes sort of, hey, shalom shalom. You know, no, God,

0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:59.560
<v Speaker 2>God is shalom. That's every attribute of God that makes

0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:09.800
<v Speaker 2>him God, faithfulness, justice, peace, joy, your joy, miracles, glory, righteousness,

0:33:09.840 --> 0:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>all those things. That's shaloon.

0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So let me ask you this then, because I'm

0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:16.240
<v Speaker 1>going to steer you back around to what we talked

0:33:16.280 --> 0:33:19.640
<v Speaker 1>a little bit about earlier, which was the idea of

0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:22.360
<v Speaker 1>a life after death, because I think a lot of people,

0:33:23.520 --> 0:33:31.600
<v Speaker 1>particularly in the more naive agnostic, atheistic community communities is

0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:36.600
<v Speaker 1>the wrong word, but realm, realm the idea that religion

0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:40.000
<v Speaker 1>is all about life after death. It's all about you know,

0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:44.320
<v Speaker 1>And so because it's an unprovable situation while you're alive,

0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 1>I would ask you do you have a conception of it?

0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:54.479
<v Speaker 1>Do you have and are you certain of if it exists?

0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:57.000
<v Speaker 1>And if it does exist, what it looks like.

0:33:58.000 --> 0:34:01.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're so smart to say that it's in

0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the suite, bye and bye. That's what so many people

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.000
<v Speaker 2>live their life. If I can just get this through

0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.120
<v Speaker 2>this life. It's gonna be perfect one day. You know

0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:13.800
<v Speaker 2>well that what Jesus came to show us is yes,

0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:15.960
<v Speaker 2>there will be a new a new heaven and a

0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:18.399
<v Speaker 2>new Earth, and it will be perfect and every tear

0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:20.680
<v Speaker 2>will be dried. And know there will be no pain,

0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.399
<v Speaker 2>and there will be the perfection that God had originally

0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:26.520
<v Speaker 2>placed us, and he put us in a garden. Whether

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:28.360
<v Speaker 2>you believe in that as a as a as a

0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 2>real place or as a metaphor, it was perfect. That's

0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.240
<v Speaker 2>what He always always meant for us, is the garden

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:37.680
<v Speaker 2>where he Why did he need us to be born?

0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 2>Did he need to create us? Why did he create

0:34:41.280 --> 0:34:43.440
<v Speaker 2>us with free will? You know, he could have created

0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:45.719
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of robots and we would have done everything

0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>he wants. No, I know, because they they want they'd

0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:51.239
<v Speaker 2>want to they want they want to be they want

0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:54.799
<v Speaker 2>to be God. Sorry, Ultimately, these robots are good. There's

0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:57.000
<v Speaker 2>gonna be so much smarter than us. And that's what

0:34:57.080 --> 0:35:01.279
<v Speaker 2>happened in the original story. Suffice to say, nothing is

0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:04.040
<v Speaker 2>new under the sun, and the things that we battle

0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:06.400
<v Speaker 2>with today, like Mary Magdalen at the Cross, I was

0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:09.480
<v Speaker 2>going to finish that story Jesus. She doesn't recognize him

0:35:09.480 --> 0:35:11.400
<v Speaker 2>in the morning because it's early morning.

0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:11.560
<v Speaker 1>It's dawn.

0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:14.759
<v Speaker 2>She's come. She believes he's died. She saw him die.

0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:17.479
<v Speaker 2>She was at the cross, watched him, watch them throw

0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:19.439
<v Speaker 2>the spear in his and the blood and the water

0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:22.560
<v Speaker 2>gush shout. She saw his suffering that They never left

0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:25.600
<v Speaker 2>the cross and he was there from nine in the

0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:28.880
<v Speaker 2>morning till three in the afternoon when they pronounced him dead, which,

0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:31.759
<v Speaker 2>interestingly enough, greg at three o'clock. They call it the

0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:35.680
<v Speaker 2>ninth hour. That is when all of the animal sacrifices

0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:39.160
<v Speaker 2>at the temple take place at three o'clock in the afternoon.

0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:44.440
<v Speaker 2>So Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb while they were

0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:49.080
<v Speaker 2>actually sacrificing a lamb in the inner court, this Holy

0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:52.200
<v Speaker 2>of Holies on the temple. Jesus naked. He was not

0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:54.440
<v Speaker 2>You've always seen him on the cross with the loincloth

0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:57.520
<v Speaker 2>and all of that vest Society though that was the

0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:01.800
<v Speaker 2>ultimate for them. They wanted to crucifer by you naked

0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:05.160
<v Speaker 2>and as as vulnerable as anybody could be, and that

0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:07.040
<v Speaker 2>was anybody that Christian naked.

0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 1>I think that also the ida, I mean the historical

0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:14.040
<v Speaker 1>aspects of crucifixion, you know, the idea Spartacus and like

0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.680
<v Speaker 1>I think like ten. I don't know what the number was.

0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:20.439
<v Speaker 1>It was thousands of slaves were crucified on the Appian Way.

0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:22.920
<v Speaker 2>That was their warning, you you mess with Rome, this

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:23.399
<v Speaker 2>is going.

0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:25.080
<v Speaker 1>To be a d I mean that was I think

0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Pompy that did that, which was run about the same

0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:31.479
<v Speaker 1>time as or crisis. Maybe who did it run at

0:36:31.480 --> 0:36:34.320
<v Speaker 1>the same time as Jesus of Nazareth.

0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:37.040
<v Speaker 2>It was, it was It's one of the worst, they say,

0:36:37.120 --> 0:36:40.040
<v Speaker 2>the worst death that's ever been contrived by.

0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:41.960
<v Speaker 1>A human being. What crucifixion.

0:36:43.400 --> 0:36:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's been some bad ones since.

0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:48.879
<v Speaker 1>So listen. We we talked a lot about religion and

0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:51.799
<v Speaker 1>clearly that is at the core of of who you are.

0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Not religion, sorry, relationship, I do. It's a hard habit.

0:36:57.280 --> 0:36:59.280
<v Speaker 2>You're a hard habit to break.

0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:01.960
<v Speaker 1>This is another habit you've got. You will sing directly

0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:05.160
<v Speaker 1>at people, which record, No, I don't think that's true.

0:37:05.239 --> 0:37:07.160
<v Speaker 1>I also find that, I quind I find it quite

0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:10.680
<v Speaker 1>alarming and very endearing at the same time, A little

0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:14.359
<v Speaker 1>bit like you. You are very much who you are and

0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:17.480
<v Speaker 1>I and I love that, and I appreciate that about you,

0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:21.680
<v Speaker 1>And I wonder do you ever when you when you

0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:26.360
<v Speaker 1>get because you say things about Jesus Christ and a

0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:29.279
<v Speaker 1>lot of people are very touchy about that.

0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yes, do you ever It's not popular in

0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:33.680
<v Speaker 2>all circles.

0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:35.799
<v Speaker 1>Right, and not even that, I mean people who who

0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:39.160
<v Speaker 1>are you know, followers of Jesus Christ or people who

0:37:39.200 --> 0:37:44.160
<v Speaker 1>are Christians. You will have doctrinal differences differences with them,

0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:47.239
<v Speaker 1>and people get very you know, heated about that. Do

0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 1>you ever do you ever feel like maybe you don't

0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:51.960
<v Speaker 1>want to bring it up?

0:37:52.960 --> 0:37:57.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, it goes back to that boldness that.

0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:57.560
<v Speaker 1>I have from the Brownies.

0:37:57.760 --> 0:37:58.960
<v Speaker 2>I was going to tell you that when I went

0:37:59.000 --> 0:38:01.400
<v Speaker 2>to the movie. I went to the BILLI Gram movie

0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:05.120
<v Speaker 2>and it was over, and I remember literally hearing the

0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:09.440
<v Speaker 2>voice of Jesus again in my heart and he said, Kathy,

0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:14.160
<v Speaker 2>I love you, and if you trust me, I will

0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:17.239
<v Speaker 2>make something beautiful out of your life. That was it,

0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:21.400
<v Speaker 2>you said, was the defining moment. I walked forward, literally

0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:23.759
<v Speaker 2>gave my heart, even though my heart was already his.

0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:27.680
<v Speaker 2>I just made sort of the public statement, yes, I

0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:31.360
<v Speaker 2>am going to follow you. And that was the single

0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:33.280
<v Speaker 2>greatest decision of my entire life.

0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:39.920
<v Speaker 1>And that you feel that all adversity is coped because

0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:42.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm fascinated by people of faith. I am fascinated you

0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:47.440
<v Speaker 1>always happen, Yeah, and of all doctrines, all faiths. So

0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:49.759
<v Speaker 1>I'm fascinated by it. I think it's an interesting thing.

0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 1>And I'm fascinated by yours because it is unshakable, which

0:38:54.000 --> 0:38:56.959
<v Speaker 1>I suppose that's what faith is. Have you ever thought

0:38:57.080 --> 0:38:57.879
<v Speaker 1>because faith is a.

0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Gift, it's not because I have it innately, right, But

0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:04.080
<v Speaker 2>the Scripture is very clear that faith, even even faith,

0:39:04.280 --> 0:39:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I have to get from Him. So when I'm running

0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:09.480
<v Speaker 2>out of it, I just cry out. The scripture is

0:39:09.480 --> 0:39:11.920
<v Speaker 2>full of cry out to the Lord. He knows you,

0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:15.040
<v Speaker 2>he created you, He knows you needed cry out and

0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:16.280
<v Speaker 2>ask and you will receive.

0:39:16.520 --> 0:39:18.399
<v Speaker 1>Let me ask you that because we're talking about joy.

0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:25.759
<v Speaker 1>Were at some point the idea of running out of faith? Yes,

0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:29.479
<v Speaker 1>describe describe for me a moment in your life where

0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:31.920
<v Speaker 1>you had to You had to do that because you

0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:35.640
<v Speaker 1>talked about Frank passing and that was clearly I thought, huge,

0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes moment.

0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, almost thirty years of marriage, right?

0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:42.680
<v Speaker 1>But is there is there a time like I'm trying

0:39:42.719 --> 0:39:47.000
<v Speaker 1>to think of something more, No, something more mundane, sure

0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:48.360
<v Speaker 1>something more.

0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:50.360
<v Speaker 2>The times that my faith was most tried, Yes is

0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the way I can answer it, and took me to

0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:55.600
<v Speaker 2>my knee, my knees more often than a normal day would.

0:39:55.920 --> 0:39:58.320
<v Speaker 2>When I was accused of sweatshot violations, when I was

0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:00.160
<v Speaker 2>accused of abusing children.

0:39:59.880 --> 0:40:01.920
<v Speaker 1>And scratch, that was one of the most.

0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it was one of the most. I couldn't really,

0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:08.520
<v Speaker 2>Lord really, Frank and I had just opened up a

0:40:08.560 --> 0:40:11.200
<v Speaker 2>fourteen million dollar home for aids and crack babies in

0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:14.040
<v Speaker 2>New York during the pandemic. Every bit of the money

0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:19.280
<v Speaker 2>from my Walmart clothing line went towards building that home

0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:22.600
<v Speaker 2>where nobody would even hold an aid's baby. Only Princess

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Diana was doing that. And then and so I'm now

0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:30.200
<v Speaker 2>we've built a home from scratch. It was used to

0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:32.160
<v Speaker 2>be the old Ronald McDonald house. It was before that,

0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:34.839
<v Speaker 2>it was a woman's convent. And we just bought it,

0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:37.840
<v Speaker 2>tried for two with two million dollars to renovate it

0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:41.239
<v Speaker 2>for these babies. Couldn't because of the laws. Anytime you

0:40:41.360 --> 0:40:44.360
<v Speaker 2>kept dealing with diseases and babies, and you know, tried to.

0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:47.760
<v Speaker 2>We had to tear it down and start from scratch.

0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:50.920
<v Speaker 2>And it cost fourteen million dollars. And that's where my

0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Walmart money went. You know, I was taking you know,

0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:58.120
<v Speaker 2>money that I earned honestly and put it giving it away.

0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:03.160
<v Speaker 2>They never the people came against me, never visited Cassidy's

0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:06.319
<v Speaker 2>place or Cody House once. They just stood up like

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:10.520
<v Speaker 2>they're doing in culture, the culture now cancel culture, and

0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:13.560
<v Speaker 2>accused me of something so that they would. The guy

0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.440
<v Speaker 2>that did it said he was a human rights activist. No,

0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:20.720
<v Speaker 2>he was an attorney who worked for Unite the Apparel right. Yes,

0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:22.719
<v Speaker 2>and you know what he said to me later. Now

0:41:22.719 --> 0:41:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say that privately, I'll tell you. Okay,

0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:28.719
<v Speaker 2>nobody knows this, but it's it's interesting. But anyway, we

0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:33.440
<v Speaker 2>got laws passed, we got we got I got legislation passed.

0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:35.800
<v Speaker 2>I was suing the State of New York to a

0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:40.280
<v Speaker 2>blind HIV testing because babies were being born who shouldn't

0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:45.359
<v Speaker 2>be born with the AIDS virus or just with the

0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:48.040
<v Speaker 2>full blown AIDS. We found out with all of our

0:41:48.080 --> 0:41:51.840
<v Speaker 2>studying that if if a baby got a certain no,

0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.840
<v Speaker 2>if a mother got cocktail of certain drugs while she

0:41:55.000 --> 0:41:59.560
<v Speaker 2>was pregnant, it would go from lessen forty percent down

0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:01.600
<v Speaker 2>to it less an eight percent chance the child would

0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:04.160
<v Speaker 2>be born with the disease. Wow, And I said then,

0:42:04.560 --> 0:42:08.359
<v Speaker 2>and they had c d C, the wonderful CDC had

0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:12.040
<v Speaker 2>blinded all HIV testing in the clinics so they could

0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:14.759
<v Speaker 2>track it, not do anything about it, just track it.

0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:18.240
<v Speaker 2>And we knew that that there was there was hope.

0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:21.640
<v Speaker 1>There was hope, there was a treatment for y for

0:42:21.760 --> 0:42:24.480
<v Speaker 1>women who were had HIV and were pregnant.

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And I said, it was being with held. And

0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:31.440
<v Speaker 2>there are all kinds of different privacy issues that were involved,

0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:35.680
<v Speaker 2>especially with gay men who were legitimately were worried about

0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:38.880
<v Speaker 2>if it's if their status was known, they might you know,

0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:42.799
<v Speaker 2>And and I respected that, but at that time, you know,

0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:45.880
<v Speaker 2>this was about dying babies. To me, I said, you

0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:47.920
<v Speaker 2>guys can do with your you can march, you can

0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:50.040
<v Speaker 2>do and you can fight your battles in court. But

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:53.560
<v Speaker 2>this is of great urgency. There's a way we can

0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:56.640
<v Speaker 2>save lives. You guys, not just the men. Don't mean that.

0:42:56.680 --> 0:42:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm at the world. And so I sat, and I

0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:03.160
<v Speaker 2>one night with the Governor George Pataki at a swanky

0:43:03.200 --> 0:43:08.080
<v Speaker 2>party in the Hampton's at the home of the Revlon

0:43:08.440 --> 0:43:12.799
<v Speaker 2>Ronald Ronald Proman's not widow, but divorced. She was a

0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:15.920
<v Speaker 2>friend of mine, Claudia Colen, beautiful woman. She said, Kathy,

0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:17.400
<v Speaker 2>I know what you're doing. I'm sitting here next to

0:43:17.440 --> 0:43:19.200
<v Speaker 2>the Governor. I said, Oh, the poor governor.

0:43:19.400 --> 0:43:20.439
<v Speaker 1>He was gonna stuck with.

0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Me for two I'm now I'm suing the governor.

0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Understand, I'm sitting next to him apartment Yes, yes, okay,

0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:27.480
<v Speaker 1>that's good, Yes.

0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:30.279
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that you know what. He's such a good

0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:32.960
<v Speaker 2>decent man. I'd met him before. And when I say

0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:35.160
<v Speaker 2>I was suing him, the organization that I worked with,

0:43:35.280 --> 0:43:38.040
<v Speaker 2>the Association and Benefit Children, had sued the State of

0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:40.239
<v Speaker 2>New York two other times and won both times too,

0:43:40.480 --> 0:43:45.040
<v Speaker 2>So we're an adversary to be dealt with. But I

0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:48.799
<v Speaker 2>told him everything, and back then I knew everything about this.

0:43:48.840 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 2>I knew every statistic. I don't anymore. This was a

0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:56.040
<v Speaker 2>long time ago, but I remember it. Boys, I remember

0:43:56.080 --> 0:43:58.239
<v Speaker 2>sitting in that and he sat and listened to me

0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:00.800
<v Speaker 2>with such respect and so quiet. Asked a couple of

0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:05.440
<v Speaker 2>different questions. I had the answers, and he said to

0:44:05.440 --> 0:44:07.520
<v Speaker 2>me at the end of the evening, three things he said,

0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:09.279
<v Speaker 2>I never knew this.

0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Really, A politician said that.

0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:14.319
<v Speaker 2>He said, yes, that's what I thought. I never knew this.

0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Number two, sometime we're on the wrong side of this issue.

0:44:17.400 --> 0:44:20.959
<v Speaker 1>A politicians said that. Yeah.

0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Third one, I'm going to do something about that.

0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:24.720
<v Speaker 1>No, no, you're crazy.

0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:27.440
<v Speaker 2>Now, Frank was sitting at a different table, and I

0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:29.480
<v Speaker 2>remember driving home with him and I said, I think

0:44:29.640 --> 0:44:32.480
<v Speaker 2>he heard me. He was, I think so, honey. I

0:44:32.480 --> 0:44:34.200
<v Speaker 2>don't know if that if he's going to have the guts,

0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:36.839
<v Speaker 2>the balls, whatever it takes to do the right thing,

0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:41.680
<v Speaker 2>but I know he heard me. And within one month,

0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:45.280
<v Speaker 2>Governor Pattaki stood in the garden of the Cody House

0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 2>on ninety first Street in New York City and announced

0:44:48.200 --> 0:44:53.080
<v Speaker 2>the unblinding of HIV testing for the state of New York.

0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:57.919
<v Speaker 2>Long story short, For the first time in history since

0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:01.440
<v Speaker 2>the HIV AIDS start, it was the first time the

0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:05.400
<v Speaker 2>death rate went down because the birth rate, it was,

0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:09.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, because the babies were living right, they were surviving.

0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:13.640
<v Speaker 2>And within one year after that, every state unblinded HIV testing.

0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Not because I did the brave thing, but because Governor

0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Prattaki did. There there are still people in this world

0:45:20.360 --> 0:45:23.160
<v Speaker 2>who are there for the right reasons. And when we

0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:25.960
<v Speaker 2>fight a good fight and we back it up with science,

0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:28.360
<v Speaker 2>and we back it up with good will and prayer,

0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:30.799
<v Speaker 2>miracles still happen every day.

0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:42.160
<v Speaker 1>There's an interest in word you use. You use the

0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:47.800
<v Speaker 1>word science, and a lot of people on maybe I'm

0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:50.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to say my say to the fence

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:52.040
<v Speaker 1>because that's not true. I don't have a sight of

0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:55.840
<v Speaker 1>the fancy on the defenseless. I'm kind of wondering.

0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:57.520
<v Speaker 2>So your defense.

0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Again, yeah, endsless, it's best. But a lot of people

0:46:03.920 --> 0:46:08.719
<v Speaker 1>think that science and faith are in conflict. They are

0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:10.719
<v Speaker 1>things that are in conflict. Do you don't see it

0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:11.000
<v Speaker 1>that way?

0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, science lives exactly alongside faith when you know what

0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the faith is based on what it really says there

0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.520
<v Speaker 2>is it's perfect. The world as what was created was

0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:29.239
<v Speaker 2>mathematically perfect. I'm sorry, but that's not random. That's a

0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:32.080
<v Speaker 2>that's a mind and a being that we can never

0:46:32.239 --> 0:46:35.759
<v Speaker 2>ever comprehend. But we can, we can bow to it,

0:46:35.840 --> 0:46:39.200
<v Speaker 2>and we can in our own ways be humble before

0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.760
<v Speaker 2>it and say, Lord, I know I'm I'm not perfect.

0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:46.960
<v Speaker 2>I know you created me for good things. You created

0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:49.640
<v Speaker 2>me for something better than what I'm settling for. I

0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:52.319
<v Speaker 2>need your help. All God wants, you know, he says

0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:56.000
<v Speaker 2>in scripture, somebody says, I don't want your sacrifices. I

0:46:56.080 --> 0:46:57.000
<v Speaker 2>want you to know me.

0:46:58.360 --> 0:47:01.359
<v Speaker 1>And you think mathilation and science is the knowledge of God.

0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, God says in the Old Testimony, he said, look

0:47:03.960 --> 0:47:06.600
<v Speaker 2>at the heavens they have they have all knowledge and

0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:10.919
<v Speaker 2>all wisdom is there. But but but religion came along

0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:14.800
<v Speaker 2>and said, can't can't worship the stars. Can't worship the stars?

0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:18.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not. He didn't say worship them, said

0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 2>study them, study them, seek, seek, And it's just so exciting.

0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:30.759
<v Speaker 2>That's what makes my faith more real every day. A

0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:32.799
<v Speaker 2>couple of years ago, the Lord gave me something that

0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:37.080
<v Speaker 2>I've tried to live as my mantra mantra ever since.

0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:41.680
<v Speaker 2>And it said, Kathy, there's a scripture that says the

0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:45.840
<v Speaker 2>joy of the Lord is your strength. Well, okay, that's

0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:49.839
<v Speaker 2>in uh what is it Angie's uh Neamiah eight ten.

0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:52.200
<v Speaker 1>I was going to say that, but I didn't want

0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:52.680
<v Speaker 1>to get it wrong.

0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I eight ten. The joy of the Lord is your strength. Okay,

0:47:57.040 --> 0:48:01.640
<v Speaker 2>I believe that. But later in life, maybe maybe when

0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:04.239
<v Speaker 2>I was going through the really really rough times of

0:48:04.600 --> 0:48:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Frank's infidelity came a year later, after the all the

0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:10.279
<v Speaker 2>terrible stuff with these sweatshops.

0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:13.280
<v Speaker 1>It was it was a very embarrassing time, I would imagine.

0:48:13.200 --> 0:48:13.959
<v Speaker 2>Mostly for him.

0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:17.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, listen, I look, I know this. I know that.

0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:19.520
<v Speaker 1>I remember seeing that at the time. I was working

0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:22.399
<v Speaker 1>on the Drew Carrey s. I remember talking to Drew

0:48:22.560 --> 0:48:24.879
<v Speaker 1>and we saw it in the newspaper and he said

0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:27.680
<v Speaker 1>to me, would like to be Frank Gifford this morning? Yeah,

0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:28.000
<v Speaker 1>that's it.

0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:31.920
<v Speaker 2>No, non men came up to him all the time.

0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:35.120
<v Speaker 2>It's better you than me, Frank. I mean. It was disgusting. Yeah,

0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:38.239
<v Speaker 2>and he was a good man who did a stupid thing.

0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:43.080
<v Speaker 2>It happens, It happens, It happens, and women or after

0:48:43.200 --> 0:48:46.560
<v Speaker 2>my husband, he was Kevin Costner of his day. You know,

0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:49.160
<v Speaker 2>he was the Brad Pitt of his day, and they

0:48:49.239 --> 0:48:51.360
<v Speaker 2>all and it was blatant right in front of me,

0:48:51.840 --> 0:48:55.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I lived with that, but I really

0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:58.719
<v Speaker 2>believed that he was he was stronger than that. And

0:48:59.040 --> 0:49:01.760
<v Speaker 2>it was also sick these six years old when that happened.

0:49:01.800 --> 0:49:04.319
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like he was, you know, twenty two, and

0:49:04.400 --> 0:49:06.880
<v Speaker 2>he knew better. He knew better, but he was you

0:49:06.880 --> 0:49:08.719
<v Speaker 2>know what. We can go into that another time as well.

0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:12.680
<v Speaker 2>But I remember the Lord saying to me, Kathy, this

0:49:12.840 --> 0:49:14.520
<v Speaker 2>is what I want you to think all the time.

0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:22.239
<v Speaker 2>My joy is non negotiable. Oh boy, okay, I'll know.

0:49:22.760 --> 0:49:24.440
<v Speaker 2>You know when you and I were doing our movie together,

0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:25.960
<v Speaker 2>then came you available on Netflix.

0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:26.399
<v Speaker 1>Left.

0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:30.840
<v Speaker 2>We had to go through a negotiation with you for

0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:32.800
<v Speaker 2>the price that would be fair. You gave a little.

0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:33.920
<v Speaker 1>It's a negotiation.

0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:34.720
<v Speaker 2>That's our business.

0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Yea.

0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:37.920
<v Speaker 2>And time off you wanted to, you know, time to

0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:40.440
<v Speaker 2>go back to your the most beautiful home in Scotland

0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and visit your family. Don't like the wife, but that's

0:49:43.320 --> 0:49:50.239
<v Speaker 2>another story and it's the process. So do you understand negotiation?

0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:53.960
<v Speaker 2>But he said your joy? Don't let anybody mess with

0:49:54.000 --> 0:49:57.680
<v Speaker 2>your joy, Kathy. And my joy comes from knowing every

0:49:57.719 --> 0:50:01.920
<v Speaker 2>morning when I wake up that I am a child

0:50:02.040 --> 0:50:02.959
<v Speaker 2>of the living God.

0:50:03.320 --> 0:50:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Were you so you? Were you able to forget? Is

0:50:05.160 --> 0:50:07.280
<v Speaker 1>that how you were able to forgive Frank the way.

0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.440
<v Speaker 2>I was able to forgive Frank, Howard Stern, you, everybody

0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:11.439
<v Speaker 2>else has broken my heart.

0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:16.439
<v Speaker 1>Oh come on, you're in good company. I's gonna say

0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:17.840
<v Speaker 1>these guys make a lot.

0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:20.759
<v Speaker 2>More money than me, Hey, wait till this podcast takes

0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:25.240
<v Speaker 2>off anyway, Yeah, what was your question?

0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:28.560
<v Speaker 1>That was? Was that how you were able to forgive Frank.

0:50:28.760 --> 0:50:31.000
<v Speaker 2>The way I was able to forgive Frank was at

0:50:31.040 --> 0:50:33.560
<v Speaker 2>the minute I knew it was true because I believed

0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:34.960
<v Speaker 2>him and he said it didn't happen. I had no

0:50:35.000 --> 0:50:38.600
<v Speaker 2>reason not to because my husband stood by me through

0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:41.640
<v Speaker 2>the sweatshop stuff. He stood by me through the uh.

0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:45.640
<v Speaker 1>People people live when they're panicked. Yes, that's exactly right.

0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:48.920
<v Speaker 2>And he realized he was caught. He had no idea

0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:51.319
<v Speaker 2>that they had tape, you know, audio tape. He just

0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:55.040
<v Speaker 2>knew that that until he found and he said, no,

0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:57.920
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't. You know, the people were always trying to

0:50:57.960 --> 0:51:01.080
<v Speaker 2>set us up, always trying to just draw us. First

0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:03.160
<v Speaker 2>of all, that goes back to the ones who were

0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:06.279
<v Speaker 2>fallen from grace. You know, God's grace is forever, but

0:51:06.360 --> 0:51:09.600
<v Speaker 2>they choose, they chose to walk away from God Almighty

0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:12.319
<v Speaker 2>and try to be God. That's never going to work

0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:15.719
<v Speaker 2>out in anybody's life. You know, you've seen and I

0:51:15.719 --> 0:51:18.480
<v Speaker 2>have seen a parade of people who who started to

0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:21.399
<v Speaker 2>believe that they were God Almighty boy, and then where

0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:21.839
<v Speaker 2>are they there?

0:51:21.960 --> 0:51:23.399
<v Speaker 1>Happens in show business from time to.

0:51:24.040 --> 0:51:26.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, Jesus said, you know, what does it profit

0:51:26.360 --> 0:51:29.359
<v Speaker 2>a person if they gain the whole world and lose

0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:33.360
<v Speaker 2>their very soul. Jesus didn't want them to lose their souls.

0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:34.279
<v Speaker 2>That's why he came.

0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:37.400
<v Speaker 1>And so, and I'm going to push you on this

0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:40.759
<v Speaker 1>because the forgiving of infidelity for a person like you,

0:51:41.200 --> 0:51:43.680
<v Speaker 1>who I know what you stand for, and I know

0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:46.280
<v Speaker 1>what you're like, and I know how much you value

0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:51.279
<v Speaker 1>loyalty and truth and friendship. Yes, that that kind of

0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:57.399
<v Speaker 1>betrayal would be horrendous and so for you that must

0:51:57.400 --> 0:51:58.719
<v Speaker 1>have been a mountain to climb to get.

0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:02.680
<v Speaker 2>No, it was an instant really, yep. The minute I

0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:05.640
<v Speaker 2>knew it was true, God showed me almost like a scrawl.

0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't do a computer, but now that I've seen it,

0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:11.279
<v Speaker 2>it was like a scrowl of everything that God had

0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:15.160
<v Speaker 2>already forgiven me for. He said, Kathy, every time you

0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:19.040
<v Speaker 2>asked for forgiveness, I forgave you. You cannot ask for

0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:22.680
<v Speaker 2>forgiveness if you're not willing to give it. It was instantaneous.

0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:24.920
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. It's amazing.

0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:28.760
<v Speaker 2>And that the exact opposite with Howard Stern the story.

0:52:28.760 --> 0:52:31.359
<v Speaker 2>He started saying the most horrendous things about me. I'd

0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:33.560
<v Speaker 2>never met the man, never listened to his show, who

0:52:33.600 --> 0:52:36.840
<v Speaker 2>never watched it, never met him, nothing, And he started

0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.480
<v Speaker 2>just just I would. People would tell me, Gosh, I

0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:41.520
<v Speaker 2>can't believe what Howard Stern, I said, don't tell me.

0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:44.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to know. But the minute I heard

0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:47.000
<v Speaker 2>that he was doing that kind of thing, I started

0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:49.920
<v Speaker 2>praying for him. I said, Lord, he must be so

0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:54.319
<v Speaker 2>hurt inside to hurt people he doesn't even know, to

0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:57.760
<v Speaker 2>be so cruel to people that are you know, don't

0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:00.440
<v Speaker 2>live cruel lives. I you know, I'm not perfect, but

0:53:00.480 --> 0:53:04.279
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't out there hurting people. You know, I don't

0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:07.080
<v Speaker 2>understand it, Lord, But you know why he doesn't hurt people,

0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:09.400
<v Speaker 2>hurt people. So I said, Lord, I'm just going to

0:53:09.440 --> 0:53:11.200
<v Speaker 2>pray for him. I'm afraid that one day he'll come

0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:14.200
<v Speaker 2>to know, you, come to know how precious.

0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:16.040
<v Speaker 1>He is to you, and you two became friends, right.

0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, you're my friend, right he became. Thirty years later

0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:23.319
<v Speaker 2>he asked me to forgive him, and he said yes,

0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:25.759
<v Speaker 2>and he said, will you forgive me? And I said,

0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:27.759
<v Speaker 2>I said, Howard.

0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Of course he's a remarkable.

0:53:30.520 --> 0:53:32.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't know him still to this day, but.

0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:34.160
<v Speaker 1>He's a I think he's fascinating man.

0:53:34.760 --> 0:53:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh he is, and is brilliant, and he's used his

0:53:38.080 --> 0:53:43.680
<v Speaker 2>communication skills, I think for in a dark way, when

0:53:43.719 --> 0:53:46.400
<v Speaker 2>God always intended for that brilliant mind and that brilliant

0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:48.080
<v Speaker 2>sense of humor and all those things to be used

0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:52.480
<v Speaker 2>for his glory, not his own, not his God's glory.

0:53:52.560 --> 0:53:55.319
<v Speaker 2>And so anyway, what I just would, I would pray

0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:58.160
<v Speaker 2>for him every day. I just did. And so I

0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:00.279
<v Speaker 2>sent him a note when he got divorced front from

0:54:00.280 --> 0:54:02.520
<v Speaker 2>his wife, and I hand delivered it because he lived

0:54:02.520 --> 0:54:04.520
<v Speaker 2>across the street, so he lived in Regis's building, and

0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:06.840
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'll just take it over. I didn't trust

0:54:06.840 --> 0:54:10.440
<v Speaker 2>it getting to him otherwise, you know, And I left it.

0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:12.280
<v Speaker 2>And the next day he's talking on the air about

0:54:12.760 --> 0:54:14.560
<v Speaker 2>you know what, I got a note from you know.

0:54:15.080 --> 0:54:16.800
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't hear this either, but I was told,

0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:20.719
<v Speaker 2>and he goes the nicest note, just the nicest note

0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:23.759
<v Speaker 2>from of all people. And he says and then they all, oh,

0:54:23.800 --> 0:54:25.960
<v Speaker 2>she's just doing it so you'll like her. Just no,

0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:29.440
<v Speaker 2>that's bullshit. She's the phone of you. I'm so whatever,

0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:31.839
<v Speaker 2>And so he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:34.880
<v Speaker 2>So that was years and years years later. Now I

0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:36.600
<v Speaker 2>won't go through the whole story unless you want to hear.

0:54:36.640 --> 0:54:39.799
<v Speaker 2>But I look up one day at the studio. I'm

0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:41.960
<v Speaker 2>at the Today Show now, and I look up and

0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:45.839
<v Speaker 2>downstairs there's a monitor. But downstairs, one floor beneath me

0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:47.799
<v Speaker 2>is where you've been there, Craig, where you walk in

0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.680
<v Speaker 2>and you go to the studio. I'd never seen anyone

0:54:50.680 --> 0:54:54.000
<v Speaker 2>with an entourage as big as this, because he was

0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:57.160
<v Speaker 2>there to announce that he was going to be a

0:54:57.239 --> 0:55:01.480
<v Speaker 2>judge on America's Carta. So he's making that announcement and

0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:02.799
<v Speaker 2>it was going to be on NBC and all that.

0:55:03.280 --> 0:55:04.600
<v Speaker 2>So I, oh, there's Howard.

0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:04.799
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:55:04.840 --> 0:55:06.640
<v Speaker 2>I didn't think anything of it, just said another prayer

0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:09.080
<v Speaker 2>for him. Probably, I don't know. I'm getting hair. I

0:55:09.400 --> 0:55:13.359
<v Speaker 2>just come in from from Greenwich, so my makeup's not done,

0:55:13.360 --> 0:55:15.320
<v Speaker 2>my hair is wet. I'm in my little schlap shows.

0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:17.960
<v Speaker 2>But like when we're on setee, you've seen me like that,

0:55:18.080 --> 0:55:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm hot, aren't I?

0:55:19.080 --> 0:55:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely? It's an amazing thing to see.

0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, So the Lord says, Cathy, I want you to

0:55:26.520 --> 0:55:28.920
<v Speaker 2>go downstairs, right, now and say hello to Howard and

0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:31.560
<v Speaker 2>welcome them and tell and wish him well with the show.

0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:36.400
<v Speaker 2>And I went, okay, Lord, Now that they had made

0:55:37.200 --> 0:55:41.279
<v Speaker 2>huge effort at NBC to make sure that I didn't

0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:44.240
<v Speaker 2>run to him and he didn't run into me, because

0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:45.840
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot at stake, and they and my

0:55:45.920 --> 0:55:47.880
<v Speaker 2>hair and makeup people have been don't don't let Kathy

0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:50.279
<v Speaker 2>out of your sight. All of a sudden, I get

0:55:50.360 --> 0:55:52.720
<v Speaker 2>up and I say to my hair and makeup people,

0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:54.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna I'll be right back.

0:55:56.800 --> 0:56:00.000
<v Speaker 1>She's walking, she's walking, she's walking. It was just like.

0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:04.840
<v Speaker 2>And so Sarah I started singing again, and anyway, I

0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:07.360
<v Speaker 2>would just go downstairs. Nobody tries to stop me. I

0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:10.239
<v Speaker 2>walk in and I walked right up to Howard, who's

0:56:10.280 --> 0:56:12.239
<v Speaker 2>six six. I was five six at the time. I've

0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:15.360
<v Speaker 2>shrunk a little and I and I'm flat footed, and

0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:18.040
<v Speaker 2>I look up and I'm going Howard, Howard, and he's

0:56:18.080 --> 0:56:20.239
<v Speaker 2>looking around because he's got a good foot taller than

0:56:20.280 --> 0:56:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I am. And all of a sudden he looks down

0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:25.040
<v Speaker 2>and sees his little elf in front of him, and

0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:27.160
<v Speaker 2>he goes, WHOA. He just I remember him just sort

0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:31.759
<v Speaker 2>of physically backing up and going rarely is the man speechless.

0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:35.080
<v Speaker 2>He was speechless, and I put my hand out to him, said, Hi,

0:56:35.200 --> 0:56:37.239
<v Speaker 2>Kathy Lee. I think it's about time we meet, don't

0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:40.399
<v Speaker 2>you think And he put his hand out and I said,

0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:42.759
<v Speaker 2>I just want to wish you well and with the

0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:45.440
<v Speaker 2>show and with your life, and you just take care

0:56:45.440 --> 0:56:47.839
<v Speaker 2>of yourself. That was it. I turned and walked away.

0:56:48.920 --> 0:56:51.799
<v Speaker 2>He was one thing he did said. I said, yeah, crazy, right,

0:56:51.800 --> 0:56:54.880
<v Speaker 2>the show is crazy. I said, it's crazy, and I

0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:58.080
<v Speaker 2>just laughed and went upstairs. They go, what did you do?

0:56:58.120 --> 0:56:58.359
<v Speaker 1>I said?

0:56:58.400 --> 0:57:00.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, I wish him well with the show. Let's

0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:02.120
<v Speaker 2>get my hair and makeup do. I'm a little behind.

0:57:03.080 --> 0:57:06.480
<v Speaker 2>And I left that day for La because the Cody

0:57:06.520 --> 0:57:09.520
<v Speaker 2>was graduating from a usc film school that the next day.

0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:11.680
<v Speaker 2>So it's flying into to be a family for a while.

0:57:12.160 --> 0:57:15.239
<v Speaker 2>I land and turned my phone on and there's a message.

0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:18.880
<v Speaker 2>My friend Jill Martin had given him my number because

0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:21.880
<v Speaker 2>she knew it was important, and and it was him saying,

0:57:22.800 --> 0:57:24.680
<v Speaker 2>can I say bad words on your podcast?

0:57:25.360 --> 0:57:25.520
<v Speaker 1>Thank?

0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean obviously I raised it, but it was

0:57:28.280 --> 0:57:31.280
<v Speaker 2>it was a million fuck words. It was like, I'm

0:57:31.280 --> 0:57:34.600
<v Speaker 2>so fucked. This is Howard Stern I'm just I'm such

0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:37.280
<v Speaker 2>a fucking It's just I can't tell you exactly what

0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:39.680
<v Speaker 2>he said, but there I could tell the man was

0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:43.080
<v Speaker 2>in great pain and he said, I'm so, I'm so sorry.

0:57:43.120 --> 0:57:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I need you to forgive me. I need to talk

0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:47.480
<v Speaker 2>to you. He was so nice to me today and

0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:50.840
<v Speaker 2>I've just been wrong and I'm just he was so contrite,

0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:53.800
<v Speaker 2>he was so he broke my heart. But there was

0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 2>no number. I couldn't call him. It was just a

0:57:56.120 --> 0:57:58.919
<v Speaker 2>you know, call her idea unknown. So I said, well, Lord,

0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:02.560
<v Speaker 2>it's in your hands. I thanked God. I said, wow, incredible.

0:58:03.080 --> 0:58:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Thirty years later, Lord, you're answering. This man is seeking people.

0:58:08.400 --> 0:58:11.800
<v Speaker 2>He has hurt to say, I'm sorry, forgive me. Every

0:58:11.840 --> 0:58:13.840
<v Speaker 2>person needs to do that in their life. All of

0:58:13.880 --> 0:58:19.040
<v Speaker 2>us do to have peace. Shalom, God shaloon. So anyway,

0:58:19.280 --> 0:58:21.280
<v Speaker 2>that night, we're at dinner at the Beverly Hills Hotel

0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:23.720
<v Speaker 2>and I see no caller idea and I'm going, oh,

0:58:23.720 --> 0:58:27.480
<v Speaker 2>it's him. He's trying again. I got up. My husband

0:58:27.560 --> 0:58:29.840
<v Speaker 2>was not happy, and either was Cody. You're not going

0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:33.040
<v Speaker 2>to talk to him, mom, I said, oh, yes, i am.

0:58:33.520 --> 0:58:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I'll be back. You guys continue at dinner. I went

0:58:36.040 --> 0:58:38.240
<v Speaker 2>into a private room there and I guess for about

0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:40.840
<v Speaker 2>a half an hour, maybe not that much, maybe twenty minutes.

0:58:40.880 --> 0:58:43.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Those things are surreal anyway, you don't

0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:45.520
<v Speaker 2>really know. I don't check my phone if I knew

0:58:45.520 --> 0:58:50.240
<v Speaker 2>how to. And he was so incredibly contrite. He said,

0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I cannot believe how kind you were to me. And

0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:57.600
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, of course I was, you were, And

0:58:57.760 --> 0:59:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I said, and so do you forgive me? He said, Kathy,

0:59:00.640 --> 0:59:02.840
<v Speaker 2>I've just I've been I've fucked up my entire life,

0:59:02.920 --> 0:59:06.640
<v Speaker 2>my whole life, and I'm getting cat counseling. You know,

0:59:06.880 --> 0:59:08.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to be a better person, trying to go

0:59:08.800 --> 0:59:11.000
<v Speaker 2>to everybody that i've heard, and I know what, I've

0:59:11.000 --> 0:59:13.960
<v Speaker 2>been horrible to you, and I keep hearing wonderful things

0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:16.640
<v Speaker 2>about you, and I just kept doing it. And I said, why, Howard,

0:59:16.760 --> 0:59:20.000
<v Speaker 2>why did you He goes because I hated you? And

0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:22.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, but why we had never even met. He said,

0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:27.160
<v Speaker 2>you were everything I wasn't. You're Jewish, but you believe

0:59:27.160 --> 0:59:31.160
<v Speaker 2>in Jesus. How's that you're a musician, but you just

0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:33.720
<v Speaker 2>sing old songs like that your father likes you. Just

0:59:33.840 --> 0:59:35.680
<v Speaker 2>I just found a million things to make fun of you.

0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:37.600
<v Speaker 2>For I didn't. I thought you were a complete fun

0:59:37.600 --> 0:59:39.320
<v Speaker 2>The only way I could deal with somebody leader like

0:59:39.320 --> 0:59:41.800
<v Speaker 2>he was to write you off as a phony. And

0:59:41.840 --> 0:59:43.560
<v Speaker 2>he had a group of minions, of course, and yes,

0:59:43.560 --> 0:59:47.280
<v Speaker 2>people who just fed into that. That's okay anyway, I said,

0:59:47.320 --> 0:59:49.640
<v Speaker 2>do you forgive me? I said, Howard, of course I do.

0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:53.040
<v Speaker 2>But I just need you to know that I forgave

0:59:53.120 --> 0:59:56.480
<v Speaker 2>you thirty years ago, and I've been praying for you

0:59:56.560 --> 1:00:02.280
<v Speaker 2>every day since. And and he goes, what I said, Yeah,

1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:04.160
<v Speaker 2>I knew this day would come. I didn't know when.

1:00:04.200 --> 1:00:06.760
<v Speaker 2>You've certainly taken your time. We said a little lad,

1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:08.520
<v Speaker 2>and I said, would you like to come to dinner

1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:11.560
<v Speaker 2>at my house? He goes, you'd have me for dinner?

1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:14.400
<v Speaker 2>I said, of course, I'm not sure Frank will, but

1:00:14.520 --> 1:00:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I will. You know that kind of thing. And we

1:00:17.560 --> 1:00:19.840
<v Speaker 2>never did do that, but I've run into him several

1:00:19.880 --> 1:00:22.840
<v Speaker 2>times since and it's very warm between us, and there's

1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:26.800
<v Speaker 2>no tension, there's no none of that. It's forgiven. It's

1:00:26.840 --> 1:00:30.200
<v Speaker 2>not forgotten. It was a huge thing. But the how

1:00:30.240 --> 1:00:34.200
<v Speaker 2>you forgive is immediately because you realize that that's what

1:00:34.360 --> 1:00:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Jesus did. He said, you're not supposed to forgive once

1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:40.160
<v Speaker 2>you forgive seven times seventy times, which is in the Bible,

1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the perfection everything.

1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:44.680
<v Speaker 1>It's all all the Mathema.

1:00:45.120 --> 1:00:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Every if Jesus turned six pots of water into wine,

1:00:48.560 --> 1:00:51.240
<v Speaker 2>there's a reason that's six pots. I've written a book

1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:53.240
<v Speaker 2>called The Rock, The Road, and the Rabbi with one

1:00:53.280 --> 1:00:57.880
<v Speaker 2>of the great Biblical rabbinic scholars, and every single number

1:00:58.400 --> 1:01:01.280
<v Speaker 2>he knows the meaning of, because the rabbis do. And

1:01:01.320 --> 1:01:04.560
<v Speaker 2>when you find out what it means, it is so

1:01:05.120 --> 1:01:08.960
<v Speaker 2>mind boggling, and it just confirms and affirms your faith.

1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:14.280
<v Speaker 2>This is not a random thing. This is sovereign God

1:01:14.320 --> 1:01:17.200
<v Speaker 2>being sovereign God in spite of whatever else happens in

1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:20.440
<v Speaker 2>the in whatever realm. And I believe there's many realms,

1:01:20.840 --> 1:01:22.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, who the hell do we think we are

1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:24.800
<v Speaker 2>to think that there's just us in this world? You know,

1:01:24.840 --> 1:01:27.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe that. I don't know what else is there.

1:01:27.680 --> 1:01:29.240
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not going to put God in a box

1:01:29.280 --> 1:01:33.200
<v Speaker 2>and say he only created us. You know, No, no,

1:01:33.320 --> 1:01:35.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe that. And I think that's what eternity

1:01:35.920 --> 1:01:39.280
<v Speaker 2>is all about. Once the next step comes and you

1:01:39.320 --> 1:01:41.920
<v Speaker 2>asked about that, earlier. It's we're going to be learning,

1:01:42.240 --> 1:01:43.760
<v Speaker 2>we're going to be growing. We're not going to be

1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:47.080
<v Speaker 2>sitting around on clouds playing the harp. I don't want

1:01:47.080 --> 1:01:51.160
<v Speaker 2>to go there, you know. I get tired of the

1:01:51.160 --> 1:01:53.920
<v Speaker 2>harp in about five minutes. Yeah, it's there's a hotel

1:01:54.000 --> 1:01:56.080
<v Speaker 2>lollby vibe about a harp. I'm going to be honest.

1:01:56.200 --> 1:01:58.040
<v Speaker 2>I love that you're talking about time because we are

1:01:58.160 --> 1:02:02.280
<v Speaker 2>out of it. Well, I really hope not.

1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:05.920
<v Speaker 1>But what I means, but what I mean giving me

1:02:05.960 --> 1:02:08.360
<v Speaker 1>the hook, I'm giving you the hook for no nan,

1:02:08.400 --> 1:02:09.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to take care and we're going to get

1:02:09.680 --> 1:02:10.160
<v Speaker 1>something to you.

1:02:10.200 --> 1:02:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, my darling.

1:02:11.080 --> 1:02:13.320
<v Speaker 1>That sounds great, but nobody else can come to that.

1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:15.360
<v Speaker 1>Now you can tell me the stories that you weren't

1:02:15.360 --> 1:02:15.800
<v Speaker 1>going to sell.

1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:18.760
<v Speaker 2>I've told you lots of stuff that will never, you know,

1:02:19.040 --> 1:02:21.840
<v Speaker 2>never be said publicly because I trust you. That's right,

1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:24.280
<v Speaker 2>that's right. I trust you, and I love you, and

1:02:24.320 --> 1:02:27.320
<v Speaker 2>you've let You've always let me be me. And I

1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:29.480
<v Speaker 2>do adore your wife. And she's the one who said

1:02:29.520 --> 1:02:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I sent her give you the script. You gave it

1:02:31.040 --> 1:02:33.200
<v Speaker 2>to her. And she does have a beautiful name. Her

1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:36.240
<v Speaker 2>name is me. Yeah, and she's a beautiful woman from

1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:39.240
<v Speaker 2>New Hampshire originally. But anyway, I know all of this.

1:02:39.440 --> 1:02:39.640
<v Speaker 1>I know.

1:02:39.680 --> 1:02:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling you. You're your listeners who may not know.

1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:44.480
<v Speaker 2>And she she did not. Didn't she turn to you

1:02:44.520 --> 1:02:45.560
<v Speaker 2>and say you've got to do this.

1:02:45.760 --> 1:02:47.720
<v Speaker 1>She said that. She said, you got to do this movie.

1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:50.600
<v Speaker 1>She also said, and I'm going to cuss a little here,

1:02:50.600 --> 1:02:53.000
<v Speaker 1>but you're going to like this. She said, that is

1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Kathy Lee Gifford. She's a goddamn American treasure, and you're

1:02:57.440 --> 1:02:59.919
<v Speaker 1>going to do this movie. She did, She did.

1:03:00.480 --> 1:03:01.640
<v Speaker 2>She never told me that.

1:03:02.600 --> 1:03:03.280
<v Speaker 1>You told me that.

1:03:03.320 --> 1:03:06.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm serious. I'm not doubting it, but I'm that's so nice.

1:03:06.520 --> 1:03:09.000
<v Speaker 2>But you told me she said she had. Boy, does

1:03:09.040 --> 1:03:11.200
<v Speaker 2>she have you down?

1:03:11.520 --> 1:03:14.560
<v Speaker 1>That we gotta go? I love you.

1:03:15.040 --> 1:03:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Believe what you've heard about this man. He's awesome.

1:03:19.640 --> 1:03:30.520
<v Speaker 1>My baby,