Speaker 1: We want to get to another edition of Business Week Talks.
Speaker 1: John Mackie is CEO and co founder of Whole Foods Market.
Speaker 1: Prior to that, co CEO of the company. He founded
Speaker 1: Whole Foods once on its own. Now it's in its
Speaker 1: third year as part of Amazon. And John's got a
Speaker 1: new book out released today. It's Conscious Leadership, Elevating Humanity
Speaker 1: through Business. And John joined us on the phone from Austin, Texas,
Speaker 1: and I've got to say, your book, Conscious Capitalism, it's
Speaker 1: on my bookshelf. It's signed by you. It was back
Speaker 1: at the street y. I think it was a conversation
Speaker 1: you had with Norm Pearlstein, who was our head of
Speaker 1: content at Bloomberg for several years. So in front of
Speaker 1: human people, probably front of human people, not virtually. John,
Speaker 1: So delighted to have you here with us. How are you,
Speaker 1: I I'm very well. I've heard so often people having
Speaker 1: my book on their bookshelves, but a lot less of
Speaker 1: that people actually read it. Okay, okay, we read it.
Speaker 1: I read it, the family did. But but so tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about how you're doing it in
Speaker 1: the pandemic. You know, this pandemic has been obviously extremely
Speaker 1: difficult for pretty much everybody. Right, it'sies the weirdest year
Speaker 1: of my life. I don't know about you, but it's
Speaker 1: definitely the wordest year. And I mean Whole Feeg has
Speaker 1: done a lot better than other businesses because we weren't
Speaker 1: we weren't shut down, we were an essential business, and
Speaker 1: we saw our sales go up and our online sales
Speaker 1: went way up. But it's been incredibly stressful in the company.
Speaker 1: Made no mistake about that. People don't lose their jobs,
Speaker 1: but it's been we have we've had to go to
Speaker 1: mask for everybody's wearing mask and we've had we haven't
Speaker 1: been able to connect with the team members as much
Speaker 1: because you know, lockdown, not traveling, not being able to
Speaker 1: visit the stores. A lot of safety measures been put
Speaker 1: in place. Um it's been you know, we just did
Speaker 1: a cultural compass survey and we see that it's been
Speaker 1: very stressful in the team members. So that has been
Speaker 1: a challenge for us, but again less of a challenge
Speaker 1: for Whole Foods and many like a restaurant owner who's
Speaker 1: more or less been put out of business, So very
Speaker 1: very difficult times. And I will tell you I am
Speaker 1: very much looking forward to COVID being done when that
Speaker 1: will be, but it'll be I'm gonna be celebrating along
Speaker 1: with everybody else, that's for sure. So John, I guess
Speaker 1: on the subject of your book and sort of synthesizing
Speaker 1: all of this, what's the key leadership lesson uh coming
Speaker 1: through this? And we're not through it yet by any stretch.
Speaker 1: But what have you learned about leading? What have you
Speaker 1: learned about how to lead? Uh in a situation like this?
Speaker 1: You mean in COVID. In COVIDH gosh, I mean, COVID
Speaker 1: is a great example of, uh, how you can learn
Speaker 1: and grow in a crisis. In a crisis, the general
Speaker 1: reaction people have when there in crisis to sort of
Speaker 1: look for a safe place, a safe harbor, someplace that
Speaker 1: uh they they're not going to be um safe. But
Speaker 1: one thing I've learned is that in crisis, that's a
Speaker 1: great opportunity to learn and grow and you have to
Speaker 1: lean into it. You have to kind of instead of
Speaker 1: going back to a safe place, you've got to open
Speaker 1: wider to see what lessons are there, and you have
Speaker 1: to face your fears and Uh. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I learned is that Whole Foods has a very
Speaker 1: deep culture because we we've been making cultural deposits for
Speaker 1: a long time, and but during COVID we've been making
Speaker 1: a lot of cultural withdrawals. But we're not bankrupt because
Speaker 1: we've got so many deposits that have been made. However,
Speaker 1: as COVID goes on longer and longer and we're not
Speaker 1: able to make more deposits and and connecting with people,
Speaker 1: I just you know, I mean, a company is ultimately
Speaker 1: about relationships and about trust and about partnership, and the
Speaker 1: hardest thing in COVID, I think has been the difficulty,
Speaker 1: other than virtually to connect with people. And uh we
Speaker 1: we we read all about people working at home and
Speaker 1: and a lot of corporations are not going to go
Speaker 1: back fully, but I don't believe that. I mean, more
Speaker 1: people may work at home when COVID's over, But in reality,
Speaker 1: if you're going to maintain a culture, you have to
Speaker 1: have people connecting with each other, and there's no real
Speaker 1: substitute for doing that in person. So I've learned that
Speaker 1: culture is resilient, but I've also learned that it's we
Speaker 1: we need, we need that personal connection to No. I
Speaker 1: think you were right about that, you know, Jason. I've
Speaker 1: had John so many different conversations because we're seeing, certainly
Speaker 1: the financial community it seems like really stepping up and
Speaker 1: really kind of urging their teams to come back to
Speaker 1: work in New York City. But I think it's a
Speaker 1: comfort level and people are just not comfortable. And it's
Speaker 1: not that people don't want to be working with colleagues. Um,
Speaker 1: we're social creatures. But I think there is a fear.
Speaker 1: I mean we for most of us, right, we have
Speaker 1: never seen something like this. It's true, Um, and maybe
Speaker 1: people won't be comfortable until we have vaccination that people
Speaker 1: feel safe and taking. But in truth, I think the
Speaker 1: concept of herd immunities it's beginning to work its way
Speaker 1: through the United States. It's worked its way through Sweden
Speaker 1: at this point. If you look at their recent death rates,
Speaker 1: there's just a few people a week now, not not
Speaker 1: not hundreds or thousands of people a days, three or
Speaker 1: four a week. So we're going to get through this,
Speaker 1: and probably a lot sooner than people think. I'd be
Speaker 1: very surprised if a year from now we have not
Speaker 1: returned to semi normalcy and people will be afraid. But
Speaker 1: as their friends go out and report back. Hey, it's
Speaker 1: safe out there, nobody's people aren't getting sick, and and
Speaker 1: people will start to tentatively venture out, probably being wearing
Speaker 1: masks more. But uh, that might be a while before
Speaker 1: people are completely back, but they will be because we
Speaker 1: are who we are. We're social creatures. And you know,
Speaker 1: I remember, I'm old enough to remember I had lots
Speaker 1: of friends, not lots. I had a few friends back
Speaker 1: in elementary school. They got polio. Um, I want to
Speaker 1: ask you, John, I mean, here we are a few
Speaker 1: years in. You know with Amazon, how's it going? What?
Speaker 1: What has worked really well for you? It's going very well.
Speaker 1: A big merger between two big companies is a little
Speaker 1: bit like a marriage. I like that metaphor. And I
Speaker 1: mean I've been married for thirty years, and I I
Speaker 1: wet my wife and I love, you know, maybe of
Speaker 1: everything about her, and I'm not too fond of And
Speaker 1: I think a merger similar. I mean, Amazon has a
Speaker 1: different culture than Whole Foods. We overlap in some areas,
Speaker 1: and uh, we love most things about Amazon, and they
Speaker 1: probably love most things about Whole Goods, but you know,
Speaker 1: not everything. And and which worked really well is Amazon
Speaker 1: thinks long term and They're enabling whole foods market to
Speaker 1: think long term. We've had three major price reductions were
Speaker 1: beginning of fourth um. They're making investments in technology for
Speaker 1: Whole Foods that I think will be transformative, although I'm
Speaker 1: sorry I can't talk about those. And they've been respectful
Speaker 1: of our culture. They haven't tried to just turn us
Speaker 1: into Amazon. So if I that the best way to
Speaker 1: ask that question is, is John, if you could do
Speaker 1: it all over again when you make the same decision
Speaker 1: and the answers, yes, we make the same decision. It
Speaker 1: was the right decision for us. I have to tell you.
Speaker 1: A listener is writing in and said, could you just
Speaker 1: ask John Mackie, could they please please please open the
Speaker 1: Whole Foods in the Hampton's in the Hampton's. Yeah, We've
Speaker 1: We've received a lot of requests for that. It's it's
Speaker 1: a very seasonal sort of market out there, and we'll
Speaker 1: get there eventually. He got that that the question answered, well,
Speaker 1: one day able to ask you. I think our team
Speaker 1: was was curious about is you guys Whole Foods. I
Speaker 1: spent a couple I spent I did kind of a
Speaker 1: deep dive into your company A few years ago and
Speaker 1: with Walter rob who was co CEO at the time.
Speaker 1: I spent time with a forager just how you guys
Speaker 1: work with companies, support companies to help them build out
Speaker 1: either production, you know, so that they can you know,
Speaker 1: once you find an item that you want in your stories.
Speaker 1: You guys have such a value system, you know, and
Speaker 1: and you really stick to selling just certain types of things.
Speaker 1: And to be fair, if you go on Amazon, you
Speaker 1: can buy just about anything, um it feels like and
Speaker 1: that they'll sell just about anything to anyone. You know.
Speaker 1: How have those values clashed if at all? You know?
Speaker 1: And how do you kind of get your head around that.
Speaker 1: I don't think they'll tell you half clashed And I
Speaker 1: think you're right. Health Foods is we're very um, you know,
Speaker 1: we're very stakeholder oriented. We care deeply about our suppliers.
Speaker 1: Were partnered with them, and we are proud of the
Speaker 1: fact that we were work with lots of small producers
Speaker 1: and help them get distribution, and a lot of them
Speaker 1: grow with us over time. And they start out with
Speaker 1: one store, and then one region, and then multiple regions
Speaker 1: and then across the whole country and and then maybe
Speaker 1: they sell their company or or take a public I
Speaker 1: mean a great example recently was Vital Farms. Eggs Whole
Speaker 1: Fus was the first customer Vital Farms ever had, and
Speaker 1: we we made it over time. I had a ten
Speaker 1: million dollar investment in their company as well, and they
Speaker 1: just did an I P O and there and their
Speaker 1: market capitalizations one point four billion dollars right now. So
Speaker 1: it's that's a great example of working with a small
Speaker 1: supplier and helping them expand across the country and eventually
Speaker 1: they've become a very very successful company in their own right.
Speaker 1: We prode we pride ourselves on that. There's there's really
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens and dozens of similar examples like that.
Speaker 1: And Amazon, you know, it's a different business and one
Speaker 1: wholefully just doing They're there the retailer, they're the everything
Speaker 1: is or as you say, I if I want something,
Speaker 1: I generally just go to my iPhone or my iPad
Speaker 1: or my computer and I just call up Amazon, I
Speaker 1: order it, uh and it comes shows up usually within
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. So that's an amazing thing Amazon does.
Speaker 1: It It's changed most people's lives. It certainly has changed
Speaker 1: my life. That's very different than what the whole Food
Speaker 1: is doing, but Whole Foods is you know, Amazon wants
Speaker 1: to be a bigger force in grocery and the Whole
Speaker 1: food is key to helping them do that. So I
Speaker 1: think that's why they ultimately wanted to acquire us. So, John,
Speaker 1: you know, you're very thoughtful in your books, and and
Speaker 1: this recent one is no example. I mean, I do
Speaker 1: wonder what's ahead for you. There's been a lot of
Speaker 1: speculation that you know, you could go on and keep
Speaker 1: writing books, and you've executed this great, as you say,
Speaker 1: new marriage between these two companies. And I'm only going
Speaker 1: to give you about ninety seconds in this question, But
Speaker 1: what's next it? Do you foresee that that maybe hand
Speaker 1: over the rain soon? You know? I like to think
Speaker 1: I read recently Warn Buffett. I read that Warren Buffett,
Speaker 1: he's he's his. Of Warren Buffett's wealth has been generated
Speaker 1: after the age of sixty. I would like to think
Speaker 1: that of my contribution in the world will be generated
Speaker 1: after I'm sixty five. That's my that's my goal. So
Speaker 1: I don't have any plans on leaving anytime soon from
Speaker 1: Whole Foods. But hey, you know, I'm getting older. We
Speaker 1: all we all have to pass from the scene. Eventually,
Speaker 1: I know I'm there are many other things. I'm a
Speaker 1: very much a doer. I have many projects in life
Speaker 1: I want to work on. I want to travel, I
Speaker 1: want to hike, and has been more time with my wife.
Speaker 1: I want to send more time with friends. But right
Speaker 1: now I'm having the time of my life and this
Speaker 1: whole Food's adventure. So I'm gonna keep doing that and
Speaker 1: until it's my inner heart my voice says, hey, John,
Speaker 1: it's time to move on. And that's not that will
Speaker 1: come someday, but it's not today. Al Right, Well, we
Speaker 1: appreciate the time. Congratulations on the book. You're always so thoughtful, um,
Speaker 1: and that really shows up and in all of your work,
Speaker 1: whether you're in one of your stores or reading your
Speaker 1: books or listening to you talk. So we really appreciate
Speaker 1: the time.