WEBVTT - Businessweek Talks- Whole Foods CEO John Mackey

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<v Speaker 1>We want to get to another edition of Business Week Talks.

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<v Speaker 1>John Mackie is CEO and co founder of Whole Foods Market.

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<v Speaker 1>Prior to that, co CEO of the company. He founded

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<v Speaker 1>Whole Foods once on its own. Now it's in its

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<v Speaker 1>third year as part of Amazon. And John's got a

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<v Speaker 1>new book out released today. It's Conscious Leadership, Elevating Humanity

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<v Speaker 1>through Business. And John joined us on the phone from Austin, Texas,

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<v Speaker 1>and I've got to say, your book, Conscious Capitalism, it's

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<v Speaker 1>on my bookshelf. It's signed by you. It was back

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<v Speaker 1>at the street y. I think it was a conversation

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<v Speaker 1>you had with Norm Pearlstein, who was our head of

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<v Speaker 1>content at Bloomberg for several years. So in front of

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<v Speaker 1>human people, probably front of human people, not virtually. John,

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<v Speaker 1>So delighted to have you here with us. How are you,

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<v Speaker 1>I I'm very well. I've heard so often people having

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<v Speaker 1>my book on their bookshelves, but a lot less of

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<v Speaker 1>that people actually read it. Okay, okay, we read it.

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<v Speaker 1>I read it, the family did. But but so tell

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<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about how you're doing it in

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<v Speaker 1>the pandemic. You know, this pandemic has been obviously extremely

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<v Speaker 1>difficult for pretty much everybody. Right, it'sies the weirdest year

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<v Speaker 1>of my life. I don't know about you, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>definitely the wordest year. And I mean Whole Feeg has

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<v Speaker 1>done a lot better than other businesses because we weren't

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<v Speaker 1>we weren't shut down, we were an essential business, and

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<v Speaker 1>we saw our sales go up and our online sales

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<v Speaker 1>went way up. But it's been incredibly stressful in the company.

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<v Speaker 1>Made no mistake about that. People don't lose their jobs,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's been we have we've had to go to

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<v Speaker 1>mask for everybody's wearing mask and we've had we haven't

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<v Speaker 1>been able to connect with the team members as much

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, lockdown, not traveling, not being able to

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<v Speaker 1>visit the stores. A lot of safety measures been put

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<v Speaker 1>in place. Um it's been you know, we just did

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<v Speaker 1>a cultural compass survey and we see that it's been

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<v Speaker 1>very stressful in the team members. So that has been

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<v Speaker 1>a challenge for us, but again less of a challenge

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<v Speaker 1>for Whole Foods and many like a restaurant owner who's

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<v Speaker 1>more or less been put out of business, So very

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<v Speaker 1>very difficult times. And I will tell you I am

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<v Speaker 1>very much looking forward to COVID being done when that

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<v Speaker 1>will be, but it'll be I'm gonna be celebrating along

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<v Speaker 1>with everybody else, that's for sure. So John, I guess

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<v Speaker 1>on the subject of your book and sort of synthesizing

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<v Speaker 1>all of this, what's the key leadership lesson uh coming

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<v Speaker 1>through this? And we're not through it yet by any stretch.

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<v Speaker 1>But what have you learned about leading? What have you

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<v Speaker 1>learned about how to lead? Uh in a situation like this?

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<v Speaker 1>You mean in COVID. In COVIDH gosh, I mean, COVID

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<v Speaker 1>is a great example of, uh, how you can learn

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<v Speaker 1>and grow in a crisis. In a crisis, the general

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<v Speaker 1>reaction people have when there in crisis to sort of

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<v Speaker 1>look for a safe place, a safe harbor, someplace that

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<v Speaker 1>uh they they're not going to be um safe. But

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<v Speaker 1>one thing I've learned is that in crisis, that's a

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<v Speaker 1>great opportunity to learn and grow and you have to

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<v Speaker 1>lean into it. You have to kind of instead of

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<v Speaker 1>going back to a safe place, you've got to open

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<v Speaker 1>wider to see what lessons are there, and you have

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<v Speaker 1>to face your fears and Uh. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that I learned is that Whole Foods has a very

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<v Speaker 1>deep culture because we we've been making cultural deposits for

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<v Speaker 1>a long time, and but during COVID we've been making

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of cultural withdrawals. But we're not bankrupt because

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<v Speaker 1>we've got so many deposits that have been made. However,

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<v Speaker 1>as COVID goes on longer and longer and we're not

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<v Speaker 1>able to make more deposits and and connecting with people,

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<v Speaker 1>I just you know, I mean, a company is ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>about relationships and about trust and about partnership, and the

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<v Speaker 1>hardest thing in COVID, I think has been the difficulty,

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<v Speaker 1>other than virtually to connect with people. And uh we

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<v Speaker 1>we we read all about people working at home and

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of corporations are not going to go

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<v Speaker 1>back fully, but I don't believe that. I mean, more

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<v Speaker 1>people may work at home when COVID's over, But in reality,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're going to maintain a culture, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>have people connecting with each other, and there's no real

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<v Speaker 1>substitute for doing that in person. So I've learned that

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<v Speaker 1>culture is resilient, but I've also learned that it's we

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<v Speaker 1>we need, we need that personal connection to No. I

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<v Speaker 1>think you were right about that, you know, Jason. I've

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<v Speaker 1>had John so many different conversations because we're seeing, certainly

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<v Speaker 1>the financial community it seems like really stepping up and

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<v Speaker 1>really kind of urging their teams to come back to

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<v Speaker 1>work in New York City. But I think it's a

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<v Speaker 1>comfort level and people are just not comfortable. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>not that people don't want to be working with colleagues. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>we're social creatures. But I think there is a fear.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean we for most of us, right, we have

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<v Speaker 1>never seen something like this. It's true, Um, and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>people won't be comfortable until we have vaccination that people

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<v Speaker 1>feel safe and taking. But in truth, I think the

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<v Speaker 1>concept of herd immunities it's beginning to work its way

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<v Speaker 1>through the United States. It's worked its way through Sweden

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<v Speaker 1>at this point. If you look at their recent death rates,

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<v Speaker 1>there's just a few people a week now, not not

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<v Speaker 1>not hundreds or thousands of people a days, three or

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<v Speaker 1>four a week. So we're going to get through this,

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<v Speaker 1>and probably a lot sooner than people think. I'd be

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<v Speaker 1>very surprised if a year from now we have not

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<v Speaker 1>returned to semi normalcy and people will be afraid. But

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<v Speaker 1>as their friends go out and report back. Hey, it's

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<v Speaker 1>safe out there, nobody's people aren't getting sick, and and

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<v Speaker 1>people will start to tentatively venture out, probably being wearing

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<v Speaker 1>masks more. But uh, that might be a while before

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<v Speaker 1>people are completely back, but they will be because we

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<v Speaker 1>are who we are. We're social creatures. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I remember, I'm old enough to remember I had lots

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<v Speaker 1>of friends, not lots. I had a few friends back

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<v Speaker 1>in elementary school. They got polio. Um, I want to

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<v Speaker 1>ask you, John, I mean, here we are a few

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<v Speaker 1>years in. You know with Amazon, how's it going? What?

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<v Speaker 1>What has worked really well for you? It's going very well.

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<v Speaker 1>A big merger between two big companies is a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit like a marriage. I like that metaphor. And I

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<v Speaker 1>mean I've been married for thirty years, and I I

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<v Speaker 1>wet my wife and I love, you know, maybe of

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<v Speaker 1>everything about her, and I'm not too fond of And

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<v Speaker 1>I think a merger similar. I mean, Amazon has a

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<v Speaker 1>different culture than Whole Foods. We overlap in some areas,

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<v Speaker 1>and uh, we love most things about Amazon, and they

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<v Speaker 1>probably love most things about Whole Goods, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not everything. And and which worked really well is Amazon

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<v Speaker 1>thinks long term and They're enabling whole foods market to

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<v Speaker 1>think long term. We've had three major price reductions were

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<v Speaker 1>beginning of fourth um. They're making investments in technology for

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<v Speaker 1>Whole Foods that I think will be transformative, although I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry I can't talk about those. And they've been respectful

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<v Speaker 1>of our culture. They haven't tried to just turn us

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<v Speaker 1>into Amazon. So if I that the best way to

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<v Speaker 1>ask that question is, is John, if you could do

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<v Speaker 1>it all over again when you make the same decision

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<v Speaker 1>and the answers, yes, we make the same decision. It

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<v Speaker 1>was the right decision for us. I have to tell you.

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<v Speaker 1>A listener is writing in and said, could you just

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<v Speaker 1>ask John Mackie, could they please please please open the

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<v Speaker 1>Whole Foods in the Hampton's in the Hampton's. Yeah, We've

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<v Speaker 1>We've received a lot of requests for that. It's it's

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<v Speaker 1>a very seasonal sort of market out there, and we'll

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<v Speaker 1>get there eventually. He got that that the question answered, well,

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<v Speaker 1>one day able to ask you. I think our team

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<v Speaker 1>was was curious about is you guys Whole Foods. I

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<v Speaker 1>spent a couple I spent I did kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive into your company A few years ago and

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<v Speaker 1>with Walter rob who was co CEO at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>I spent time with a forager just how you guys

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<v Speaker 1>work with companies, support companies to help them build out

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<v Speaker 1>either production, you know, so that they can you know,

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<v Speaker 1>once you find an item that you want in your stories.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys have such a value system, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>and you really stick to selling just certain types of things.

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<v Speaker 1>And to be fair, if you go on Amazon, you

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<v Speaker 1>can buy just about anything, um it feels like and

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<v Speaker 1>that they'll sell just about anything to anyone. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>How have those values clashed if at all? You know?

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<v Speaker 1>And how do you kind of get your head around that.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think they'll tell you half clashed And I

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<v Speaker 1>think you're right. Health Foods is we're very um, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we're very stakeholder oriented. We care deeply about our suppliers.

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<v Speaker 1>Were partnered with them, and we are proud of the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that we were work with lots of small producers

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<v Speaker 1>and help them get distribution, and a lot of them

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<v Speaker 1>grow with us over time. And they start out with

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<v Speaker 1>one store, and then one region, and then multiple regions

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<v Speaker 1>and then across the whole country and and then maybe

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<v Speaker 1>they sell their company or or take a public I

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<v Speaker 1>mean a great example recently was Vital Farms. Eggs Whole

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<v Speaker 1>Fus was the first customer Vital Farms ever had, and

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<v Speaker 1>we we made it over time. I had a ten

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<v Speaker 1>million dollar investment in their company as well, and they

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<v Speaker 1>just did an I P O and there and their

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<v Speaker 1>market capitalizations one point four billion dollars right now. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's that's a great example of working with a small

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<v Speaker 1>supplier and helping them expand across the country and eventually

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<v Speaker 1>they've become a very very successful company in their own right.

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<v Speaker 1>We prode we pride ourselves on that. There's there's really

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<v Speaker 1>dozens and dozens and dozens of similar examples like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And Amazon, you know, it's a different business and one

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<v Speaker 1>wholefully just doing They're there the retailer, they're the everything

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<v Speaker 1>is or as you say, I if I want something,

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<v Speaker 1>I generally just go to my iPhone or my iPad

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<v Speaker 1>or my computer and I just call up Amazon, I

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<v Speaker 1>order it, uh and it comes shows up usually within

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four hours. So that's an amazing thing Amazon does.

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<v Speaker 1>It It's changed most people's lives. It certainly has changed

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<v Speaker 1>my life. That's very different than what the whole Food

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<v Speaker 1>is doing, but Whole Foods is you know, Amazon wants

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<v Speaker 1>to be a bigger force in grocery and the Whole

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<v Speaker 1>food is key to helping them do that. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's why they ultimately wanted to acquire us. So, John,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you're very thoughtful in your books, and and

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<v Speaker 1>this recent one is no example. I mean, I do

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<v Speaker 1>wonder what's ahead for you. There's been a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>speculation that you know, you could go on and keep

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<v Speaker 1>writing books, and you've executed this great, as you say,

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<v Speaker 1>new marriage between these two companies. And I'm only going

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<v Speaker 1>to give you about ninety seconds in this question, But

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<v Speaker 1>what's next it? Do you foresee that that maybe hand

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<v Speaker 1>over the rain soon? You know? I like to think

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<v Speaker 1>I read recently Warn Buffett. I read that Warren Buffett,

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<v Speaker 1>he's he's his. Of Warren Buffett's wealth has been generated

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<v Speaker 1>after the age of sixty. I would like to think

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<v Speaker 1>that of my contribution in the world will be generated

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<v Speaker 1>after I'm sixty five. That's my that's my goal. So

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have any plans on leaving anytime soon from

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<v Speaker 1>Whole Foods. But hey, you know, I'm getting older. We

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<v Speaker 1>all we all have to pass from the scene. Eventually,

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<v Speaker 1>I know I'm there are many other things. I'm a

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<v Speaker 1>very much a doer. I have many projects in life

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<v Speaker 1>I want to work on. I want to travel, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to hike, and has been more time with my wife.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to send more time with friends. But right

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<v Speaker 1>now I'm having the time of my life and this

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<v Speaker 1>whole Food's adventure. So I'm gonna keep doing that and

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<v Speaker 1>until it's my inner heart my voice says, hey, John,

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<v Speaker 1>it's time to move on. And that's not that will

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<v Speaker 1>come someday, but it's not today. Al Right, Well, we

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate the time. Congratulations on the book. You're always so thoughtful, um,

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<v Speaker 1>and that really shows up and in all of your work,

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<v Speaker 1>whether you're in one of your stores or reading your

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<v Speaker 1>books or listening to you talk. So we really appreciate

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<v Speaker 1>the time.