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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Behavior change is hard. That's something we talk about

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Speaker 1: a lot on the Happiness Lab. And I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: no one knows this fact about the mind better than

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Speaker 1: today's guest.

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Speaker 2: I had been in detox before. I had been in

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Speaker 2: treatment before. So there were lots of times that I

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Speaker 2: made an attempt to change and none of them had worked.

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Speaker 1: This is podcaster and author Eric Simmer.

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Speaker 2: I think for a lot of, if not most addicts,

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Speaker 2: there will be a story that is similar, which is

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Speaker 2: probably years before they achieve full sobriety. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of little attempts at change. There's lots of attempts at moderation,

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Speaker 2: only on the weekends, or I'll drink whiskey, but I

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Speaker 2: won't do heroin, right? And I'd had all those. I'd

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Speaker 2: also had my, okay, that's it.

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Speaker 1: I'm done.

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Speaker 2: I'm swearing it off. I'm detoxing. I'm going through cold

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Speaker 2: turkey moments where I tried that. It hadn't worked. And

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Speaker 2: I really felt like I couldn't change.

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Speaker 1: But Eric was wrong. He did eventually change in ways

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Speaker 1: that his younger self could never have imagined were possible.

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Speaker 2: My life has gone on to do all kinds of

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Speaker 2: incredible things, right? I've written a book and I've hosted

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Speaker 2: a podcast. I started a solar energy company. I was

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Speaker 2: part of a lot of software startups. But I had

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Speaker 2: to get recovery nailed first.

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Speaker 1: And now Eric is working to help others do the same.

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Speaker 1: Not just when it comes to major life changes like addiction,

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Speaker 1: but also the more mundane ones that we all struggle with.

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Speaker 1: Things like getting to the gym more often, getting to

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Speaker 1: sleep on time, or spending less time scrolling on social media.

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Speaker 1: Whatever behavior you're working on, chances are it's something that

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Speaker 1: you've tried to change before without quite getting the results

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Speaker 1: you hoped for. In Eric's new book, How a Little

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Speaker 1: Becomes a Lot, he argues that making the lasting changes

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Speaker 1: we want could be more within reach than we think.

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Speaker 1: And in this episode of our Back to School book series,

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Speaker 1: Eric will share what he's learned about why our attempts

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Speaker 1: to change often fail and how we can massively improve

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Speaker 1: our likelihood of success. So whether you've been struggling with

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Speaker 1: the same goal for years, or you're hoping to make

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Speaker 1: a fresh start this fall, stay tuned, because Eric and

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Speaker 1: I have got you covered. Our minds are constantly telling

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Speaker 1: us what to do to be happy. But what if

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Speaker 1: our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying

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Speaker 1: to us, leading us away from what will really make

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Speaker 1: us happy? The good news is that understanding the science

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Speaker 1: of the mind can point us all back in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. You're listening to The Happiness Lab with Dr.

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Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. I'm chatting with Eric Zimmer about his new book,

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Speaker 1: How a Little Becomes a Lot, the art of small

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Speaker 1: changes for a more meaningful life. But the ideas behind

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Speaker 1: Eric's book stretch back decades, back to his own recovery

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Speaker 1: from addiction, and to a well-known parable that continues to

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Speaker 1: inspire his award-winning podcast.

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Speaker 2: There's a grandparent who's talking with her grandchild, and they say,

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Speaker 2: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

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Speaker 2: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which

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Speaker 2: represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the

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Speaker 2: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed

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Speaker 2: and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think

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Speaker 2: about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent,

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Speaker 2: and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says,

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Speaker 2: the one you feed. I first heard that parable once.

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Speaker 2: Probably somewhere around 30 years ago in some church basement

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Speaker 2: in Columbus, Ohio, as I was in recovery from heroin addiction.

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Speaker 2: And at that time, that parable really hit home so strongly.

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Speaker 2: I'm not even sure I was feeding the good wolf

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Speaker 2: or feeding the bad wolf at that point. I almost

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Speaker 2: feel like it was eating me at that point. But

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Speaker 2: it was really clear that there were actions that I

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Speaker 2: could take that led me towards my recovery and actions

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Speaker 2: that I could take that led me towards where I

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Speaker 2: was headed, which was death or an institution. And so

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Speaker 2: that parable just was very poignant for me in that

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Speaker 2: moment and has remained so in the years since, primarily

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Speaker 2: in the sense that It's a good parable. We hear it.

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Speaker 2: We know what it means. Our choices matter. But I

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Speaker 2: also love it because it points to something I think

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Speaker 2: is really fundamental, which is that we do all have

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Speaker 2: competing desires, forces. Call it what you want within us.

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Speaker 2: We're motivationally complex creatures. And I love that that parable

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Speaker 2: normalizes that.

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Speaker 1: So what's the basic idea behind your new book?

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Speaker 2: What's the goal? The basic idea behind the new book

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Speaker 2: is that we've been sold a pretty dramatic version of change.

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Speaker 2: We've been sold the idea that there are big moments.

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Speaker 2: If you had been filming the movie of my life,

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Speaker 2: what you would see is me walking into this detox

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Speaker 2: center in Columbus, Ohio in 1994 as a homeless heroin addict.

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Speaker 2: I weighed 100 pounds. I was yellow and jaundiced from

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Speaker 2: hepatitis C. The prosecutor said I might be going to

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Speaker 2: jail for 50 years. And I am asked to go

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Speaker 2: to treatment, long-term treatment. And I say, no, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And I go back to my room and I have

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Speaker 2: what we describe in recovery as a moment of clarity

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Speaker 2: where I see very clearly if I leave here, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to die or go to jail and soon. So

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Speaker 2: I go back and I say, okay, I'll go to treatment.

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Speaker 2: That would be the big moment, right? The director would

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time there. And then there would be,

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Speaker 2: you know, inspirational music in the background. And that moment

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Speaker 2: was important, but it only has its significance because of

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Speaker 2: the thousands of little choices that I made after that

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Speaker 2: day after day, month after month, year after year that

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Speaker 2: made that change possible. And so my book is trying

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Speaker 2: to set that idea in people's mind. And it's also

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Speaker 2: just a book overall about how do we make any

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Speaker 2: kind of change in our lives, not big dramatic change

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Speaker 2: like I did, but the sort of change we all

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Speaker 2: wrestle with and what allows us to do that more effectively.

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Speaker 1: I think when we're having trouble with change, the thing

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Speaker 1: we often tell ourselves is that there's one thing that

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Speaker 1: could get us to change more. And if we could

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Speaker 1: just harness that thing, everything would be great. And this

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Speaker 1: is something I know you talk about in the book.

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Speaker 1: What's the one thing we assume we need for change

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Speaker 1: and why is that assumption wrong?

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Speaker 2: Well, we almost always assume it is something that you

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Speaker 2: would call either willpower or discipline or self-control. That's usually

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Speaker 2: the thing that we think we are lacking. And we

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Speaker 2: usually think that there's something wrong with us. And one

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Speaker 2: of my big messages in the book and in all

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Speaker 2: the work that I do is that I truly believe

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Speaker 2: that change is a skill. It's something we can learn

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Speaker 2: to do. I eventually got sober because I figured out

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Speaker 2: the puzzle of what it took for me to make

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Speaker 2: that change. And so most of us are taking it

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Speaker 2: as there's something wrong with us, right? If I handed

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Speaker 2: you a trombone right now, you're not a trombone player.

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Speaker 2: If I handed you a trombone and you picked it

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Speaker 2: up and started playing, it would sound terrible. We wouldn't

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Speaker 2: conclude that you were a bad person. We just conclude

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Speaker 2: you don't know how to play the trombone. But when

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Speaker 2: it comes to our own behaviors and our own emotions,

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Speaker 2: we take it very personal. And we think it tells

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Speaker 2: a story about us. And I think it's incredibly important

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Speaker 2: that we flip that story and we say, okay, we

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Speaker 2: can learn to change. And some of that is skills

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Speaker 2: and things we do before we even get to the

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Speaker 2: moment of change. And we can also learn how in

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Speaker 2: that moment, when we make decisions that we don't want

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Speaker 2: to make, when we see ourselves making the choice we

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Speaker 2: wish we didn't, we can learn to develop more self-control, discipline, willpower,

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Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it in that moment. And

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Speaker 2: so that's the key is to recognize that we all

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Speaker 2: can do this if we have the right resources, the

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Speaker 2: right learning and the right attitude.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that we need to learn

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Speaker 1: is just how change works and the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that tend to inhibit change. And you've argued that one

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Speaker 1: thing we need to learn about is how our biology

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Speaker 1: and our nervous systems sometimes affects our ability to change.

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Speaker 1: What's the problem with how our nervous system reacts that

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Speaker 1: we need to understand better?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm oversimplifying a complex process here called homeostasis, which

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Speaker 2: is that things like to largely remain the way they are.

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Speaker 2: Our bodies are always trying to balance things out. If

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Speaker 2: I get too warm, my body's trying to cool me down.

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Speaker 2: If I haven't eaten enough, my body tries to get

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Speaker 2: me to eat. There's a constant balance for equilibrium. And

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Speaker 2: I think something similar happens within us when it comes

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Speaker 2: to change, because change does make us uncomfortable. When we

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Speaker 2: start that often comes with it. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: good that can come with it also. And we can

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Speaker 2: learn to tune into the good and less of the bad.

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Speaker 2: But that discomfort makes us want to revert back to

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Speaker 2: what we know. And so I think we're fighting that.

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Speaker 2: And I think there's a certain resistance that is built

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Speaker 2: into doing some of the actions that we want to

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Speaker 2: do that make our lives better. right, we think about

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Speaker 2: getting off our phone or exercising or eating better. There's

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Speaker 2: a reason why these things are hard for everyone. And

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Speaker 2: some of it just has to do with there's a

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Speaker 2: resistance to doing those things that we all face.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about what this idea of resistance looks

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Speaker 1: like in practice.

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Speaker 2: I think resistance is what we all feel when it's

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Speaker 2: time to do something and we don't want to do it.

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Speaker 2: Every single time I've exercised in my life, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not a young person anymore, so we are talking thousands

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Speaker 2: upon thousands of times. Every single time when I'm done,

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Speaker 2: I go, I'm glad I did that. You would think

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Speaker 2: based on basic reward learning that I would run to

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Speaker 2: exercise every morning. And yet I do not. I find

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Speaker 2: myself still a lot of the time facing resistance. There's

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Speaker 2: a book out there called The War of Art by

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Speaker 2: Steven Pressfield, and he talks about this very idea too,

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Speaker 2: that creatives face this. There's a resistance to doing these

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Speaker 2: things that are really important to us. So I think

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Speaker 2: first is recognizing that resistance just exists. I don't think

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Speaker 2: it goes away. I think it's part of why we've

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Speaker 2: become obsessed with habit literature is because we just want

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Speaker 2: this to be easy we want it to be automatic

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Speaker 2: we don't want it to be hard to exercise we

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Speaker 2: don't want it to be hard to sit down and

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Speaker 2: work on the novel we're trying to do we want

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Speaker 2: it just to be easy and it gets easier but

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Speaker 2: i have found that resistance remains part of the game

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Speaker 2: and that's okay because we can learn how we overcome

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Speaker 2: resistance and we can build momentum that does make it

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Speaker 2: easier But how.

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Speaker 1: Do we make it easier to overcome that resistance? Because

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Speaker 1: I know I'm great at setting ambitious goals, but equally

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Speaker 1: great at sitting on the couch when the time comes

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Speaker 1: to follow through. When we get back from the break,

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Speaker 1: Eric will outline an approach from his book that can

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Speaker 1: help us all get off that metaphorical sofa and start

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Speaker 1: making progress on the things we want to achieve. We'll

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Speaker 1: break it all down when the Happiness Lab returns in

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Speaker 1: a moment. Podcaster Eric Zimmer's new book is called How

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Speaker 1: a Little Becomes a Lot, The Art of Small Changes

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Speaker 1: for a More Meaningful Life. And that title is also

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Speaker 1: the basic idea behind his approach to behavior change. Instead

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Speaker 1: of focusing on one big transformation, Eric says we should

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Speaker 1: focus on the small actions that can add up over time.

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Speaker 1: He calls this the little by little approach.

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Speaker 2: When I say little by little, I mean something fairly specific.

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Speaker 2: I mean low resistance actions done consistently over time in

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Speaker 2: the same direction. And so the sneaking up on change

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Speaker 2: part of that, the low resistance actions, is that when

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Speaker 2: we do what we say we're going to do, when

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Speaker 2: we make and keep promises to ourselves, even if they're

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Speaker 2: really small, there is a subtle feeling inside that feels

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Speaker 2: good when we do that. And we know that motivation

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Speaker 2: tends to go up when we feel good about ourselves

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Speaker 2: and good about our chances of success. So by doing

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Speaker 2: a little bit that we can get ourselves to do,

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Speaker 2: we also become more motivated. So for example, Imagine you're

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Speaker 2: trying to become a runner. In the beginning, if you

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Speaker 2: do a half a mile of walking, that might be

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Speaker 2: relatively easy for you to do. Well, a couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks from now, you might be able to run a

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Speaker 2: half mile and it remains the same level of difficulty

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Speaker 2: because you're getting better, you're getting stronger. And so that's

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Speaker 2: what Little by Little does. It allows us to raise

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Speaker 2: our motivation and keep tasks at a difficulty level that

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Speaker 2: we will do them. And then success breeds success.

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Speaker 1: I know when I think about making a change in

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Speaker 1: my life, it's so tempting to start off big, right?

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Speaker 1: It's so tempting to start off like, I want to

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Speaker 1: hit the gym five days a week, or I'm going

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Speaker 1: to write the entire novel. Walk me through why that's

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Speaker 1: so bad, like this temptation to go big. It seems

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Speaker 1: like it always backfires on us.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's important that we go back to the definition

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Speaker 2: of little by little, because little by little doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: mean tiny. It means low resistance actions, things you can

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Speaker 2: get yourself to do. So if you can get yourself

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Speaker 2: to do a big thing and you can keep doing it,

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Speaker 2: have at it, right? This is for people who keep

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Speaker 2: trying big and that not working. The harder something is

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Speaker 2: to do, The higher your motivation has to be to

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Speaker 2: do it. So if you are going to go to

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Speaker 2: the gym five days a week for an hour and

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Speaker 2: you haven't been working out at all, that might be

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Speaker 2: really hard. And when I say hard, I mean lots

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Speaker 2: of different things. I just don't mean the effort in

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Speaker 2: the gym. I mean, how much time is in your schedule?

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Speaker 2: That matters, right? If you don't have a lot of

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Speaker 2: time in your schedule and you now try and insert

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Speaker 2: five new hours in, that's going to be difficult. So

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Speaker 2: difficulty can be a lot of different things. But when

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Speaker 2: we try and do difficult, the only way we can

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Speaker 2: do it is if we are super, super motivated and

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Speaker 2: we generally don't stay that way. It comes up and

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Speaker 2: it goes down. And so inevitably we start not doing

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Speaker 2: the action, which is then what we start to focus on.

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Speaker 2: So if I'm like, well, I'm going to work out

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Speaker 2: five days this week and we do it two, we're

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Speaker 2: focusing on the two days we didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: Completely beating ourselves up and like, oh my God, I

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Speaker 1: screwed up. I can never do this, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Which reinforces that, well, I'm just the kind of

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Speaker 2: person who can't do this. I don't have the willpower.

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Speaker 2: I don't have the discipline. And our motivation then goes down.

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Speaker 2: And so I always work with people and like, let's

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Speaker 2: start smaller if we can and then build. My story

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Speaker 2: of this is meditation. I have been trying to become

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Speaker 2: a regular meditator since I was 18 years old. And

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Speaker 2: when I wanted to start meditating, the options were there

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Speaker 2: were books to read and there was some weird guy

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Speaker 2: in Columbus who taught transcendental meditation. This is a long

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Speaker 2: time ago. And so I'd read the books and they'd say,

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Speaker 2: do it for 30 minutes to an hour a day.

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Speaker 2: And even the transcendental meditation people were like 20 minutes

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Speaker 2: twice a day. Well, that was really hard for me.

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Speaker 2: When I sat down, it was like pandemonium in my brain.

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Speaker 2: It was like the dark circus came to town. So

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Speaker 2: I could do it when I was really motivated for

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Speaker 2: a day, a week, maybe a month at the outside.

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Speaker 2: But inevitably, I would not stick with it. Then I

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Speaker 2: would start thinking, see, you're going to quit again. And

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Speaker 2: I would. And then a few months later, I'd be like,

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Speaker 2: I really need to learn to meditate. I did this

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Speaker 2: again and again for decades, embarrassingly. Until finally, I was like,

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Speaker 2: all right, you know what? I'm going to just do

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Speaker 2: three minutes a day. And I did it. And I

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Speaker 2: would try and do my best. After I did it,

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Speaker 2: good job. You did what you said you were going

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Speaker 2: to do. That led to five minutes. It led to

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Speaker 2: 10 minutes. That's led to multiple seven-day, 10-day retreats. It's

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Speaker 2: led to studying deeply with a Zen teacher, passing 100 koans,

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Speaker 2: all of that really deep study. but that came from

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Speaker 2: me being willing to start at what seemed to be

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Speaker 2: an almost embarrassingly basic level.

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Speaker 1: You had this Roman saying that you shared in your

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Speaker 1: book that I love that captured this idea really well.

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Speaker 2: What's that? Justina Lente, make haste slowly. And it means

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Speaker 2: we can often go faster if we actually slow down

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Speaker 2: in the moments that we are in. I had been

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Speaker 2: trying for two decades to get to be the sort

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Speaker 2: of person that could meditate daily and go on meditation retreats.

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Speaker 2: And I was trying to do it fast. Every time

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Speaker 2: I'd pick up the book, I'd be like 30 minutes

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Speaker 2: or an hour. It didn't work. When I went slow,

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Speaker 2: the three minutes a day, I got where I was

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Speaker 2: going far faster. I got there in a couple of

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Speaker 2: years when I had been trying for decades the other way.

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Speaker 2: So it's that make haste slowly approach. really pays off

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Speaker 2: in these sort of situations.

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Speaker 1: So do you have any ideas for how to know

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Speaker 1: if a goal is too small to fail? Like how

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Speaker 1: do we know when we're really in the little range

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Speaker 1: that you're talking about?

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Speaker 2: It's a trial and error calibration process. What I generally

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Speaker 2: say is if you're succeeding consistently, I don't mean perfectly,

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Speaker 2: but I mean consistently, then you're probably doing just fine.

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Speaker 2: But if you're not, if your goal is to do

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Speaker 2: five days a week and you're doing two days a week,

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Speaker 2: We probably need to change the goal. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's always better to start a little bit smaller than

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Speaker 2: we think because it's easy to add. Okay, great. Two

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Speaker 2: weeks went by where I went to the gym three

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Speaker 2: days a week. Let's add a day. Let's see what happens.

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Speaker 2: But the downside of it, of going too big, is

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Speaker 2: that we increase our belief that there's something wrong with

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Speaker 2: us when we fail. We increase our belief that we

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Speaker 2: can't change. We don't have the discipline. We don't have

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Speaker 2: the stuff. Whatever it is, we don't have it. And

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Speaker 2: those stakes are really big, right? I talk about the

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Speaker 2: stakes of change in my book. And one of the

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Speaker 2: stakes of change is simply you don't get the benefit

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Speaker 2: from the thing you're trying to change. So if you're

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Speaker 2: trying to build an exercise habit and it keeps not working,

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Speaker 2: you don't get the benefits of what exercise would bring you. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's important. But I think more importantly, is that we

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Speaker 2: erode our trust in ourselves and we erode our belief

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Speaker 2: that we have agency over our own life. And that

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Speaker 2: is a very high cost. I was a behavior coach

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Speaker 2: for years. I still do some of it. And the

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Speaker 2: only reason somebody hires a behavior coach is when they've

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Speaker 2: tried to make a change a lot and it has

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Speaker 2: not worked. And so It's the same thing there. We

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Speaker 2: had to try and undo the story that they had

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Speaker 2: now convinced themselves of that there was something wrong with them.

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Speaker 2: We had to get success going and we had to

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Speaker 2: get them internalizing that success and getting back to believing

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Speaker 2: that they are the kind of person who can make change,

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Speaker 2: who does offer their own life.

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Speaker 1: So that's one way that we can get success going

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Speaker 1: is we pick a goal that's little enough that we

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Speaker 1: can't mess it up. Another thing we get wrong, though,

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Speaker 1: is we pick too many goals at once. You've talked

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Speaker 1: about how we go on these self-improvement binges. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, coming back to the definition of little by little,

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Speaker 2: I said low resistance actions done consistently over time in

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Speaker 2: the same direction. And part of what I mean by

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Speaker 2: that is, yeah, we are exposed to so many ways

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Speaker 2: to change our lives. If you get on Instagram and

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Speaker 2: you're sort of linked to all the self-help type accounts,

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Speaker 2: you could have 30 ideas of things you need to

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Speaker 2: do to improve your life in the first hour. So

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Speaker 2: which of those do we do? And there's a temptation

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Speaker 2: to try and do all of them, which doesn't work

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Speaker 2: because we're trying to do too much. Also, we try something,

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Speaker 2: we do it for a few days, and we expect

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Speaker 2: change to happen. We're like, okay, I've started meditating, and

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Speaker 2: I've done it for four days now, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: a different person. But we give up and we try

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Speaker 2: something else. And that scatteredness does not help. It's been

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Speaker 2: far better for me to narrow down to like, okay,

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Speaker 2: what is the next most important thing that I want

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Speaker 2: to change in my life? And let me really give

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Speaker 2: that my attention and give it time to work.

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Speaker 1: In your book, you talked about a case where you

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Speaker 1: mess this up some of the first times you tried

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Speaker 1: to go to treatment where it's like, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get sober, but I'm also going to do many, many

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Speaker 1: things at once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So explain what you learned from that.

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Speaker 2: The first time I went to treatment, longer term treatment,

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Speaker 2: and I came out and I was like, all right,

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Speaker 2: I'm 30 days sober. I need to stay sober, but

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Speaker 2: my life is way behind course, right? I'm 23 years

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Speaker 2: old and I've never been to college. I have no job.

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Speaker 2: I make no money. I don't have a car. I

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Speaker 2: need to get sober, but I also need to get

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Speaker 2: in great shape because I've been in bad shape and

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Speaker 2: I better start eating right. And I need to enroll

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Speaker 2: at the local community college because I've got to get

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Speaker 2: my education on track. And what ended up happening for

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Speaker 2: me was by doing all those different things, I missed

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Speaker 2: the thing that enabled all of them, which was my recovery.

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Speaker 2: My recovery needed more care and attention for a little

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Speaker 2: bit longer before I was ready to diversify. It was

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Speaker 2: the enabler of everything else. And that was what I

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Speaker 2: did differently this time around. I made it the priority.

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Speaker 2: I gave it the attention it needed for the time

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Speaker 2: it needed So that it was solid. And then I

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Speaker 2: was able to start building on top of it.

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Speaker 1: And this idea of making sure that you give whatever

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Speaker 1: your goal is the time it needs gets to another

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Speaker 1: part of your little by little strategy, which is that

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Speaker 1: rather than trying to cultivate some particular habit, we should

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Speaker 1: instead think about cultivating momentum. Why is momentum so important

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Speaker 1: but so underappreciated?

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Speaker 2: Well, back to what I said earlier about habit. We

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Speaker 2: want habits because we want these things to be easier.

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Speaker 2: And most larger behaviors we do in life aren't going

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Speaker 2: to fall into the category of what researchers would call

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Speaker 2: a habit, which is something that happens automatically. And it

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Speaker 2: typically happens in the same way around the same time.

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Speaker 2: And one of the big problems is that most of

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Speaker 2: us have lives that have constantly shifting context. Meaning I

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Speaker 2: might say I'm going to work on my novel right

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Speaker 2: after the kids get on the school bus every day.

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Speaker 2: But there are plenty of days the kids don't get

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Speaker 2: on the school bus or the dog is sick or

432
00:23:32,966 --> 00:23:37,146
Speaker 2: something comes up, which means it doesn't become automatic. But

433
00:23:37,386 --> 00:23:41,196
Speaker 2: we can have momentum, which makes it a lot easier.

434
00:23:41,326 --> 00:23:44,116
Speaker 2: And we can work to keep momentum even when we

435
00:23:44,216 --> 00:23:48,506
Speaker 2: can't do the thing perfectly. An example I often use

436
00:23:48,966 --> 00:23:52,166
Speaker 2: is my goal is to move my body every morning

437
00:23:52,666 --> 00:23:56,106
Speaker 2: and usually in some way vigorously. There was a stretch

438
00:23:56,146 --> 00:23:58,746
Speaker 2: of time that my mom kept ending up in the hospital.

439
00:23:59,066 --> 00:24:01,246
Speaker 2: And when my mom would be in the hospital, it

440
00:24:01,266 --> 00:24:03,726
Speaker 2: sort of took over everything. And I would have to

441
00:24:03,766 --> 00:24:06,176
Speaker 2: get up at the crack of dawn and get into

442
00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:08,336
Speaker 2: the hospital because you never know when the doctors are

443
00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:09,876
Speaker 2: going to come by. It's not like they're like, well,

444
00:24:09,896 --> 00:24:11,676
Speaker 2: check on your mom at 830. You just have to

445
00:24:11,736 --> 00:24:13,376
Speaker 2: be there if you want to talk to a doctor.

446
00:24:14,306 --> 00:24:16,606
Speaker 2: So I couldn't exercise. But what I could do is

447
00:24:16,706 --> 00:24:20,046
Speaker 2: walk up and down the halls for 20 minutes. There

448
00:24:20,106 --> 00:24:22,936
Speaker 2: are ways that we can do a smaller version. I

449
00:24:22,976 --> 00:24:25,076
Speaker 2: often say a little bit of something is better than

450
00:24:25,136 --> 00:24:27,856
Speaker 2: a lot of nothing. So we can do a smaller

451
00:24:27,936 --> 00:24:32,216
Speaker 2: version of whatever our activity is. That helps us keep momentum.

452
00:24:32,716 --> 00:24:35,276
Speaker 2: And we all know what momentum feels like. Imagine it

453
00:24:35,336 --> 00:24:37,466
Speaker 2: on a bike. The first few pedal strokes are kind

454
00:24:37,486 --> 00:24:39,406
Speaker 2: of hard. You're a little wobbly. You've got to put

455
00:24:39,466 --> 00:24:42,826
Speaker 2: extra effort in. Once you get moving, it's easier. It's

456
00:24:42,866 --> 00:24:45,186
Speaker 2: not like you don't have to pedal or steer. You do,

457
00:24:45,966 --> 00:24:48,246
Speaker 2: but it's easier. And that's what we're after.

458
00:24:49,406 --> 00:24:51,326
Speaker 1: Another thing we can do to keep momentum going is

459
00:24:51,366 --> 00:24:54,786
Speaker 1: to celebrate the tiny accomplishments along the way. And this

460
00:24:54,826 --> 00:24:57,346
Speaker 1: is something that I struggle with, especially when I'm using

461
00:24:57,376 --> 00:24:59,456
Speaker 1: your little by little approach. If I go to the

462
00:24:59,496 --> 00:25:01,856
Speaker 1: gym every day for a month and I can check

463
00:25:01,896 --> 00:25:04,016
Speaker 1: off the perfect gold star, I'm like, you know, pat

464
00:25:04,056 --> 00:25:06,296
Speaker 1: on the back. But when I just look at momentum

465
00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:08,376
Speaker 1: and like, well, I'm working out a little bit more

466
00:25:08,416 --> 00:25:11,516
Speaker 1: than I was last month. It's so hard to realize

467
00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:13,696
Speaker 1: that as a win. So any hints for how to

468
00:25:13,736 --> 00:25:16,076
Speaker 1: celebrate even when we're not perfect?

469
00:25:16,976 --> 00:25:18,956
Speaker 2: There's two parts of that question that I want to address.

470
00:25:18,976 --> 00:25:22,016
Speaker 2: The first is about the celebration aspect. And I think

471
00:25:22,056 --> 00:25:24,896
Speaker 2: it's important. And I think the word celebrate might be

472
00:25:25,056 --> 00:25:30,196
Speaker 2: overselling what we actually do, but I try anytime I

473
00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:33,996
Speaker 2: do what I say I'm going to do big or small,

474
00:25:34,356 --> 00:25:37,256
Speaker 2: I try and have a moment where I inside give

475
00:25:37,316 --> 00:25:41,146
Speaker 2: myself just a little good job, nice work. And I

476
00:25:41,206 --> 00:25:44,446
Speaker 2: try and notice the feeling it's subtle, but it is

477
00:25:44,606 --> 00:25:47,726
Speaker 2: always there in my experience. of I did what I

478
00:25:47,806 --> 00:25:50,526
Speaker 2: said I was going to do. There's an internal alignment

479
00:25:50,586 --> 00:25:54,156
Speaker 2: that feels good. And I try and notice that. And

480
00:25:54,176 --> 00:25:57,016
Speaker 2: we can contrast it when we don't do what we

481
00:25:57,076 --> 00:25:58,936
Speaker 2: say we're going to do. And we all know the

482
00:25:59,056 --> 00:26:02,616
Speaker 2: mental agitation that comes along with that. So some of

483
00:26:02,696 --> 00:26:06,056
Speaker 2: it is recognizing like, oh, this good feeling is subtle,

484
00:26:06,486 --> 00:26:09,526
Speaker 2: but compared to that other thing, boy, this is much better.

485
00:26:10,166 --> 00:26:14,026
Speaker 2: I think the perfection is a different animal because it

486
00:26:14,106 --> 00:26:17,636
Speaker 2: is a real problem in my experience with people trying

487
00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:21,996
Speaker 2: to change. We expect that we're going to do it perfectly.

488
00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:26,516
Speaker 2: And that simply does not exist for the vast, vast,

489
00:26:26,696 --> 00:26:31,016
Speaker 2: vast majority of people. I often talk about the 80% rule,

490
00:26:31,736 --> 00:26:34,136
Speaker 2: which means if I'm trying to do something daily, and

491
00:26:34,176 --> 00:26:36,776
Speaker 2: those two things for me are move my body for

492
00:26:36,776 --> 00:26:40,446
Speaker 2: 30 minutes and meditate. If I'm doing that 80% of

493
00:26:40,466 --> 00:26:45,606
Speaker 2: the time or so, I consider myself successful. I try

494
00:26:45,626 --> 00:26:48,176
Speaker 2: and give myself the gold star for it. Because if

495
00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:50,776
Speaker 2: I can do that week after week, month after month,

496
00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:54,456
Speaker 2: year after year, I get all the benefit there is

497
00:26:54,536 --> 00:26:57,726
Speaker 2: to get. That 20% that I miss just doesn't matter.

498
00:26:58,526 --> 00:27:00,486
Speaker 2: But if I focus on that 20% I'm not doing...

499
00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:06,516
Speaker 2: I threatened to derail the entire project. And so getting

500
00:27:06,576 --> 00:27:11,056
Speaker 2: away from that all or nothing thinking is critically important

501
00:27:11,436 --> 00:27:13,536
Speaker 2: when it comes to making lasting change.

502
00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:16,016
Speaker 1: And another thing we need to get right in terms

503
00:27:16,056 --> 00:27:18,076
Speaker 1: of our thinking is that we need to understand which

504
00:27:18,136 --> 00:27:20,596
Speaker 1: goals we really want to be pursuing in the first place.

505
00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:23,096
Speaker 1: You argued that one reason behavior change is hard is

506
00:27:23,146 --> 00:27:25,336
Speaker 1: because we often want more than one thing at once.

507
00:27:25,686 --> 00:27:28,106
Speaker 1: Give me some examples of this and explain why it

508
00:27:28,146 --> 00:27:30,126
Speaker 1: can be such a huge problem for behavior change.

509
00:27:31,436 --> 00:27:33,256
Speaker 2: Well, I think if any of us pay attention to

510
00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:36,566
Speaker 2: what shows up in our day-to-day life, we recognize we

511
00:27:36,606 --> 00:27:40,546
Speaker 2: want lots of things. I very recently was just in

512
00:27:40,586 --> 00:27:43,366
Speaker 2: New York City and I wanted to enjoy New York City.

513
00:27:44,066 --> 00:27:47,236
Speaker 2: I wanted to also continue to promote the book that

514
00:27:47,266 --> 00:27:50,736
Speaker 2: was out. I also wanted to take a nap because

515
00:27:50,776 --> 00:27:53,256
Speaker 2: I was tired, right? I mean, I've got all these

516
00:27:53,336 --> 00:27:56,946
Speaker 2: things that just show up moment to moment. And the

517
00:27:56,986 --> 00:28:00,266
Speaker 2: chapter in the book is called What is Worth Wanting?

518
00:28:00,286 --> 00:28:03,066
Speaker 2: And there's a little snippet from a song, one of

519
00:28:03,086 --> 00:28:06,156
Speaker 2: my favorite songs by artist Jimmy Dale Gilmore that says,

520
00:28:06,216 --> 00:28:08,536
Speaker 2: my mind's got a mind of its own. And I

521
00:28:08,576 --> 00:28:11,476
Speaker 2: think we can all relate with that. When we start

522
00:28:11,536 --> 00:28:15,536
Speaker 2: getting into all the competing things inside of us, boy,

523
00:28:15,556 --> 00:28:17,976
Speaker 2: there's a lot of theories on it. And I ended

524
00:28:18,056 --> 00:28:22,846
Speaker 2: up really simplifying. I hope not oversimplifying, but definitely simplifying.

525
00:28:23,516 --> 00:28:28,356
Speaker 2: into two things, values and desires. Values are the things

526
00:28:28,426 --> 00:28:31,866
Speaker 2: that the best, wisest part of us has decided are

527
00:28:31,966 --> 00:28:35,746
Speaker 2: worth wanting. And desires are just the things that show up.

528
00:28:36,306 --> 00:28:38,426
Speaker 2: You just want them because you want them. And so

529
00:28:38,666 --> 00:28:41,526
Speaker 2: the first type of conflict we find ourselves in is

530
00:28:41,626 --> 00:28:44,406
Speaker 2: the value to desire conflict, or as I like to

531
00:28:44,446 --> 00:28:48,406
Speaker 2: call it, what I want most versus what I want now.

532
00:28:49,326 --> 00:28:52,556
Speaker 2: And we're all familiar with this one. What I want

533
00:28:52,776 --> 00:28:55,216
Speaker 2: most is to be in shape. What I want now

534
00:28:55,496 --> 00:28:57,806
Speaker 2: is to continue to sit on the couch and read

535
00:28:57,906 --> 00:29:00,666
Speaker 2: Substack because my goodness, there's a lot of great writers

536
00:29:00,746 --> 00:29:04,026
Speaker 2: out there. That's what I want most versus what I

537
00:29:04,086 --> 00:29:07,066
Speaker 2: want now. But the phrasing of that question is really

538
00:29:07,126 --> 00:29:11,826
Speaker 2: valuable because it makes me realize that I do want

539
00:29:12,386 --> 00:29:15,816
Speaker 2: the thing that I currently don't feel like doing. And

540
00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:18,046
Speaker 2: I think that's critical. Now, there's a lot more that

541
00:29:18,086 --> 00:29:21,786
Speaker 2: goes into solving that, but even phrasing the question allows

542
00:29:21,866 --> 00:29:25,326
Speaker 2: us to make better choices. Then there's a second type

543
00:29:25,466 --> 00:29:28,886
Speaker 2: of conflict that comes up, and these are even harder

544
00:29:28,946 --> 00:29:31,966
Speaker 2: in some ways, and they're the values-to-values conflicts.

545
00:29:32,366 --> 00:29:34,466
Speaker 1: Give me some examples of those harder ones.

546
00:29:35,626 --> 00:29:38,266
Speaker 2: Well, I've done some exercises on my values, and I've

547
00:29:38,306 --> 00:29:40,706
Speaker 2: ended up with two values in my list. One of

548
00:29:40,786 --> 00:29:45,826
Speaker 2: them is adventure. I've realized that I am happiest, most fulfilled,

549
00:29:45,946 --> 00:29:49,016
Speaker 2: most alive when I'm on some sort of adventure. I

550
00:29:49,056 --> 00:29:52,596
Speaker 2: don't mean I have to be summoning Everest, but I'm

551
00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:54,876
Speaker 2: doing something I haven't done before or I don't know

552
00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:58,166
Speaker 2: how to do. So that's one value. Another value that's

553
00:29:58,286 --> 00:30:00,786
Speaker 2: really important to me is to be able to be

554
00:30:00,866 --> 00:30:04,526
Speaker 2: content right where I am with my life the way

555
00:30:04,586 --> 00:30:08,526
Speaker 2: it is. Well, there is a nearly constant tension between

556
00:30:08,566 --> 00:30:11,926
Speaker 2: those two values. And I don't know how to solve it.

557
00:30:12,106 --> 00:30:14,856
Speaker 2: I actually got to the place where I finally realized, like,

558
00:30:15,176 --> 00:30:19,496
Speaker 2: it doesn't get solved. It's a constant negotiation or a

559
00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:24,016
Speaker 2: dance between the two. And for me, that helps me relax.

560
00:30:24,786 --> 00:30:27,226
Speaker 2: I used to ask some version of that question on

561
00:30:27,246 --> 00:30:29,686
Speaker 2: the podcast all the time. Like, how much should I

562
00:30:29,746 --> 00:30:32,126
Speaker 2: be ambitious versus how much should I be content? As

563
00:30:32,186 --> 00:30:35,266
Speaker 2: if somebody would give me a formula and this tension

564
00:30:35,306 --> 00:30:39,176
Speaker 2: would disappear. And my experience is it hasn't worked that way.

565
00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:44,716
Speaker 2: But knowing it's there allows me to think about and go, oh, okay, yep,

566
00:30:44,936 --> 00:30:48,476
Speaker 2: I'm feeling the call to adventure again. Well, you've been

567
00:30:48,616 --> 00:30:52,716
Speaker 2: on the road for the last four weeks. Maybe it's

568
00:30:52,796 --> 00:30:55,496
Speaker 2: time to spend a little bit more time on contentment.

569
00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:58,266
Speaker 2: I face this with book launch, right? Book launch puts

570
00:30:58,306 --> 00:31:01,946
Speaker 2: you into a future mindset of like all this energy

571
00:31:02,006 --> 00:31:06,916
Speaker 2: going to this day. And I found that That has

572
00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:10,516
Speaker 2: made it harder for me to be content with the

573
00:31:10,656 --> 00:31:13,536
Speaker 2: moment that I'm in. So I've had to try and

574
00:31:13,676 --> 00:31:17,226
Speaker 2: emphasize that a little bit more because the other one's

575
00:31:17,326 --> 00:31:20,446
Speaker 2: just sort of happening. Another one that almost everybody will

576
00:31:20,506 --> 00:31:24,546
Speaker 2: recognize is the tension between their family and their career.

577
00:31:25,026 --> 00:31:27,976
Speaker 2: It's why we talk about work-life balance so much, because

578
00:31:28,026 --> 00:31:31,486
Speaker 2: it's hard, because it's the tension that doesn't disappear in us.

579
00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:35,456
Speaker 1: It's time for another break, but when we return, Eric

580
00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:37,496
Speaker 1: will tell us how he figured out what his values

581
00:31:37,636 --> 00:31:40,106
Speaker 1: really are. He'll also share his thoughts on how we

582
00:31:40,126 --> 00:31:43,106
Speaker 1: can all spend more time pursuing what matters and less

583
00:31:43,146 --> 00:31:46,626
Speaker 1: time frantically checking inane things off our to-do list. The

584
00:31:46,646 --> 00:31:58,206
Speaker 1: Happiness Lab will be right back. Before the break, Eric

585
00:31:58,246 --> 00:32:00,446
Speaker 1: and I spoke about the importance of figuring out what

586
00:32:00,466 --> 00:32:03,426
Speaker 1: we really value so that we can choose goals that matter.

587
00:32:04,026 --> 00:32:06,836
Speaker 1: But that can be harder than it seems, because sometimes

588
00:32:06,896 --> 00:32:09,316
Speaker 1: the things we think we value aren't really our own

589
00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:12,456
Speaker 1: values at all. Eric had this realization a few years

590
00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:15,746
Speaker 1: ago while driving through an affluent neighborhood in Atlanta.

591
00:32:16,526 --> 00:32:19,106
Speaker 2: My partner's mother had Alzheimer's and she lived there. So

592
00:32:19,146 --> 00:32:20,926
Speaker 2: for six years, we were kind of back and forth

593
00:32:20,966 --> 00:32:24,546
Speaker 2: between Columbus and Atlanta. And her mom lived up in

594
00:32:24,566 --> 00:32:28,526
Speaker 2: the northern part of Atlanta. And I would drive to

595
00:32:28,566 --> 00:32:32,046
Speaker 2: a library to work and I would drive through Buckhead, Atlanta.

596
00:32:32,306 --> 00:32:34,456
Speaker 2: And if you've been to Buckhead, Atlanta, one thing you

597
00:32:34,496 --> 00:32:37,016
Speaker 2: will probably notice that I certainly did is it is

598
00:32:38,876 --> 00:32:44,016
Speaker 2: lined street after street after street with enormous houses with

599
00:32:44,296 --> 00:32:49,116
Speaker 2: giant yards, like jaw-dropping wealth. And I found myself one

600
00:32:49,156 --> 00:32:51,796
Speaker 2: day driving down those roads. And what was happening was

601
00:32:52,106 --> 00:32:54,246
Speaker 2: what sometimes happens when I'm on those roads is I

602
00:32:54,306 --> 00:32:57,386
Speaker 2: start thinking, I want that. What's wrong with me that

603
00:32:57,426 --> 00:33:00,406
Speaker 2: I don't have that? So I'm noticing that. And at

604
00:33:00,446 --> 00:33:02,786
Speaker 2: the same moment, I pay attention to what's playing on

605
00:33:02,826 --> 00:33:05,466
Speaker 2: my car stereo. And it's a band I love called

606
00:33:05,486 --> 00:33:08,706
Speaker 2: the Gaslight Anthem, who are kind of like a punk band.

607
00:33:08,786 --> 00:33:12,346
Speaker 2: They're punk slash rock. And it caused me just for

608
00:33:12,376 --> 00:33:14,276
Speaker 2: a second to reflect because I was like, well, what

609
00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:17,036
Speaker 2: is it about that that matters? And I realized, oh,

610
00:33:17,456 --> 00:33:20,896
Speaker 2: there's an authenticity to punk music. There's a doing what

611
00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:25,446
Speaker 2: really matters to you ethos to it. There's a contributing

612
00:33:25,666 --> 00:33:28,506
Speaker 2: ethos to it. And I was able just to see

613
00:33:28,546 --> 00:33:32,736
Speaker 2: in that second, like, Here's one value being presented to

614
00:33:32,776 --> 00:33:35,986
Speaker 2: me that I'm finding myself wanting, and here's another value.

615
00:33:37,146 --> 00:33:38,706
Speaker 2: And what I was able to do, though, in that

616
00:33:38,786 --> 00:33:42,506
Speaker 2: moment was see that one of those values is one

617
00:33:42,526 --> 00:33:46,256
Speaker 2: that I have wanted for a long, long time. It's

618
00:33:46,386 --> 00:33:51,286
Speaker 2: deeply embedded in me. It's the value of being authentic,

619
00:33:51,446 --> 00:33:54,166
Speaker 2: about doing what I want to do, about doing things

620
00:33:54,246 --> 00:33:58,686
Speaker 2: that matter. This other one, this wealth value, seems to

621
00:33:58,906 --> 00:34:01,786
Speaker 2: only show up when I'm exposed to it. And that's

622
00:34:01,826 --> 00:34:04,326
Speaker 2: a way of telling which is which for me, is

623
00:34:04,386 --> 00:34:07,216
Speaker 2: which ones am I constantly kind of coming back around

624
00:34:07,246 --> 00:34:10,256
Speaker 2: to that they remain there? And which ones show up

625
00:34:10,436 --> 00:34:13,716
Speaker 2: when I'm exposed to them or when I'm around them?

626
00:34:14,586 --> 00:34:17,476
Speaker 2: I was in LA recently and one night I was

627
00:34:17,536 --> 00:34:20,656
Speaker 2: in a party in the Hollywood Hills and there's a

628
00:34:20,676 --> 00:34:23,856
Speaker 2: lot of money up there, gorgeous house, lots of people,

629
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:27,146
Speaker 2: lots of money. And I find myself thinking like, oh yeah, okay,

630
00:34:27,166 --> 00:34:28,886
Speaker 2: maybe I want to be here. And the next night

631
00:34:28,966 --> 00:34:30,346
Speaker 2: I was hanging out with a bunch of, you know,

632
00:34:30,606 --> 00:34:34,066
Speaker 2: quote unquote, starving artists. And I found myself wanting to

633
00:34:34,106 --> 00:34:35,546
Speaker 2: be like, oh, I really want to fit in there.

634
00:34:35,566 --> 00:34:39,896
Speaker 2: And I just noticed like, I'm affected by what I'm around.

635
00:34:41,016 --> 00:34:44,416
Speaker 2: So being clear on who I am is really important

636
00:34:44,576 --> 00:34:47,656
Speaker 2: as I move through these different places in the world.

637
00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:51,376
Speaker 1: Another dichotomy between our goals that we should pay attention

638
00:34:51,436 --> 00:34:54,196
Speaker 1: to is kind of how they feel to us. You've

639
00:34:54,216 --> 00:34:57,616
Speaker 1: talked about this distinction between want-to goals and have-to goals

640
00:34:57,676 --> 00:35:00,396
Speaker 1: and how they interact differently with this idea of resistance.

641
00:35:00,476 --> 00:35:02,676
Speaker 1: Explain the difference between these goals and what they might

642
00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:03,116
Speaker 1: look like.

643
00:35:04,776 --> 00:35:07,136
Speaker 2: Well, if we think of saying to ourselves, I should

644
00:35:07,196 --> 00:35:10,416
Speaker 2: do X, Y, or Z, And I'm not against the

645
00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:13,876
Speaker 2: word should. I think it's a nice shorthand sometimes. But

646
00:35:13,956 --> 00:35:16,506
Speaker 2: what is it that I'm telling myself I should do?

647
00:35:16,566 --> 00:35:18,766
Speaker 2: And is it something that I have to do or

648
00:35:18,806 --> 00:35:21,466
Speaker 2: is it something that I want to do? And when

649
00:35:21,506 --> 00:35:27,196
Speaker 2: we are constantly embedded in have to goals, we become unmotivated.

650
00:35:27,256 --> 00:35:31,196
Speaker 2: We become dispirited. We feel trapped. And so an example

651
00:35:31,216 --> 00:35:33,676
Speaker 2: of this for me that I talk about is when

652
00:35:33,696 --> 00:35:36,216
Speaker 2: the kids were younger, I was driving one to soccer

653
00:35:36,256 --> 00:35:38,016
Speaker 2: practice here and I had to get another one to

654
00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:39,636
Speaker 2: the other side of town for that. And then I

655
00:35:39,656 --> 00:35:42,036
Speaker 2: had to get, and my brain is going, this is ridiculous.

656
00:35:42,056 --> 00:35:44,176
Speaker 2: I have to drive these kids all over the place.

657
00:35:44,216 --> 00:35:45,636
Speaker 2: I have to do this. Then I have to do that.

658
00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:48,436
Speaker 2: And I just had the thought and I was like, no,

659
00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:51,496
Speaker 2: I don't. There is no law out there that says

660
00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:54,336
Speaker 2: that I have to take these kids to these traveling

661
00:35:54,436 --> 00:35:58,336
Speaker 2: soccer leagues and all these different things. And so I

662
00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:01,026
Speaker 2: paused and I went, well, why am I doing it then?

663
00:36:01,756 --> 00:36:03,826
Speaker 2: And that allowed me to go, oh, I'm doing it

664
00:36:03,886 --> 00:36:06,556
Speaker 2: because I believe it's good for them for X, Y,

665
00:36:06,606 --> 00:36:09,606
Speaker 2: and Z reasons. I'm doing it because I really value

666
00:36:09,686 --> 00:36:14,866
Speaker 2: my son's development. Now I'm doing the same thing, but

667
00:36:14,886 --> 00:36:18,506
Speaker 2: I'm doing it in a slightly different spirit. And I

668
00:36:18,526 --> 00:36:20,856
Speaker 2: think a lot of us fall into this. We're actually

669
00:36:20,956 --> 00:36:23,716
Speaker 2: doing a lot of the things that are important to us,

670
00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:27,726
Speaker 2: but we allow ourselves to get into, I have to

671
00:36:27,806 --> 00:36:32,216
Speaker 2: do it. which becomes problematic because then we feel trapped.

672
00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:35,436
Speaker 2: So step one for me is often just reconnect. Why

673
00:36:35,476 --> 00:36:38,276
Speaker 2: am I doing the things I'm doing? Now, if you

674
00:36:38,456 --> 00:36:40,626
Speaker 2: go through your list of that and you find that

675
00:36:40,646 --> 00:36:43,826
Speaker 2: there are things that you are doing that don't actually

676
00:36:43,946 --> 00:36:46,886
Speaker 2: matter to you, that you do feel like are have-tos

677
00:36:46,946 --> 00:36:49,626
Speaker 2: that don't matter, then that is where we want to

678
00:36:49,686 --> 00:36:52,526
Speaker 2: work to change. I don't want to keep doing something

679
00:36:52,546 --> 00:36:54,846
Speaker 2: that I feel like I have to if it doesn't

680
00:36:54,906 --> 00:36:58,586
Speaker 2: align with what's truly important to me. Those are very

681
00:36:58,666 --> 00:37:01,646
Speaker 2: difficult things. I've had to spend a lot of time

682
00:37:01,686 --> 00:37:05,376
Speaker 2: as I looked at my relationship with my parents. How

683
00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:08,536
Speaker 2: much of this lines up with my values of what

684
00:37:08,576 --> 00:37:10,676
Speaker 2: I want to do to take care of them? And

685
00:37:10,736 --> 00:37:14,996
Speaker 2: how much of this lines up with some inherited sense

686
00:37:15,056 --> 00:37:18,386
Speaker 2: of duty? Those are hard to tell apart often. It

687
00:37:18,426 --> 00:37:21,876
Speaker 2: takes some time thinking about those things. But I do

688
00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:24,756
Speaker 2: think the more time we spend thinking about like, why

689
00:37:24,816 --> 00:37:27,596
Speaker 2: am I doing the things I am doing? The far

690
00:37:27,656 --> 00:37:31,996
Speaker 2: better chance we have of leading a meaningful and intentional life.

691
00:37:33,296 --> 00:37:35,556
Speaker 1: And so that's thinking about all the values and the

692
00:37:35,596 --> 00:37:37,736
Speaker 1: goals we have so that we can create the right

693
00:37:37,776 --> 00:37:40,256
Speaker 1: kind of lasting change. But once we pick our goals,

694
00:37:40,356 --> 00:37:42,476
Speaker 1: we don't just need to set our internal compass. We

695
00:37:42,496 --> 00:37:45,016
Speaker 1: need to make sure that the world is not messing

696
00:37:45,056 --> 00:37:47,296
Speaker 1: us up. We don't want to be sabotaged by the

697
00:37:47,336 --> 00:37:50,376
Speaker 1: world around us. And in the last part of our conversation,

698
00:37:50,416 --> 00:37:52,726
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about what you've learned about behavior

699
00:37:52,786 --> 00:37:55,846
Speaker 1: change in terms of setting up our external environment right.

700
00:37:56,406 --> 00:37:58,946
Speaker 1: I know in your book, you've talked about different structural

701
00:37:58,986 --> 00:38:02,106
Speaker 1: ways that we can go about bringing our goals to life.

702
00:38:02,606 --> 00:38:04,516
Speaker 1: And you have this handy acronym that you use to

703
00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:05,416
Speaker 1: do that. What's that?

704
00:38:05,756 --> 00:38:08,856
Speaker 2: So we've got to get the structural right, the ways

705
00:38:08,916 --> 00:38:12,116
Speaker 2: we set ourselves up for success. So I roll out

706
00:38:12,296 --> 00:38:15,046
Speaker 2: a process in the book I call SPAR, which is

707
00:38:15,106 --> 00:38:17,926
Speaker 2: a way of walking through all of these things. S

708
00:38:17,966 --> 00:38:22,326
Speaker 2: stands for specificity. Because so much of what seems to

709
00:38:22,406 --> 00:38:26,786
Speaker 2: us a failure of willpower is often failure of clarity.

710
00:38:27,646 --> 00:38:31,176
Speaker 2: We're not specific enough about what we need to do.

711
00:38:31,556 --> 00:38:34,776
Speaker 2: So we might have a goal, but are we really specific?

712
00:38:35,116 --> 00:38:37,706
Speaker 2: If I have to figure out what to do and

713
00:38:37,736 --> 00:38:40,986
Speaker 2: then do it at the same time, I'm in danger

714
00:38:41,046 --> 00:38:43,986
Speaker 2: of failing. I know this one really well. I wake up,

715
00:38:44,176 --> 00:38:46,416
Speaker 2: it's the weekend, and I know I'm going to exercise.

716
00:38:46,476 --> 00:38:48,316
Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, well, what am I going to do?

717
00:38:48,456 --> 00:38:50,476
Speaker 2: It's kind of a nice day. Maybe I should go

718
00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:52,716
Speaker 2: for a bike ride. Yeah, but if I go on

719
00:38:52,736 --> 00:38:53,996
Speaker 2: a bike ride, then I'm going to have to pack

720
00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:56,996
Speaker 2: a lunch. And you know what? I'll go to yoga instead. Well,

721
00:38:57,036 --> 00:39:00,036
Speaker 2: what time are those classes? Right before long, I am

722
00:39:00,096 --> 00:39:03,756
Speaker 2: completely lost trying to decide what to do. So that

723
00:39:03,836 --> 00:39:07,176
Speaker 2: ambiguity is a real problem. The next part of it

724
00:39:07,256 --> 00:39:09,736
Speaker 2: is prompts. How do I get reminded to do the

725
00:39:09,796 --> 00:39:13,286
Speaker 2: thing that I'm doing? This sounds simple, but it's actually

726
00:39:13,386 --> 00:39:17,126
Speaker 2: often not, right? The mornings that I overcome my sub

727
00:39:17,146 --> 00:39:20,396
Speaker 2: stack exercise challenge are the mornings that an alarm goes

728
00:39:20,556 --> 00:39:24,496
Speaker 2: off and says, now it is time. Alignment is really

729
00:39:25,016 --> 00:39:27,716
Speaker 2: sort of what you just mentioned, our environment, right? And

730
00:39:27,756 --> 00:39:31,686
Speaker 2: our environment consists of, have we made it easy to do?

731
00:39:31,736 --> 00:39:34,146
Speaker 2: The classic one people always use is like, do I

732
00:39:34,226 --> 00:39:37,786
Speaker 2: set out my exercise clothes the night before? My version

733
00:39:37,826 --> 00:39:40,716
Speaker 2: of this that shows me how important environment is, which

734
00:39:41,056 --> 00:39:44,356
Speaker 2: every time I tell it, I feel like a flawed creature,

735
00:39:44,836 --> 00:39:48,016
Speaker 2: is that I play my guitar so much more when

736
00:39:48,056 --> 00:39:50,816
Speaker 2: it's on a stand versus in a case right next

737
00:39:50,856 --> 00:39:53,976
Speaker 2: to it. It takes time. About 30, I've timed it.

738
00:39:53,986 --> 00:39:56,286
Speaker 2: It takes about 30 seconds to open the guitar case

739
00:39:56,606 --> 00:39:58,966
Speaker 2: and take the guitar out. The fact that I end

740
00:39:59,046 --> 00:40:02,856
Speaker 2: up playing more because of some 30 second friction, again,

741
00:40:02,936 --> 00:40:05,496
Speaker 2: makes me think like, what kind of weird animal am I?

742
00:40:05,976 --> 00:40:09,986
Speaker 2: And yet it is undeniably true. So the more that

743
00:40:10,026 --> 00:40:12,816
Speaker 2: we set up our environment, the better chance we have.

744
00:40:12,836 --> 00:40:15,196
Speaker 2: We used to say in recovery all the time, if

745
00:40:15,216 --> 00:40:17,116
Speaker 2: you hang around the barbershop long enough, you're going to

746
00:40:17,136 --> 00:40:20,616
Speaker 2: get a haircut, right? It speaks to if I'm around

747
00:40:20,656 --> 00:40:23,016
Speaker 2: people that are using, I'm going to end up using.

748
00:40:23,356 --> 00:40:25,916
Speaker 2: And so who supports us and the environments we're in

749
00:40:25,976 --> 00:40:28,416
Speaker 2: are all really important. And then the last part of

750
00:40:28,506 --> 00:40:32,486
Speaker 2: it is R for resilience, which is planning for what

751
00:40:32,546 --> 00:40:34,586
Speaker 2: am I going to do when my plan goes wrong?

752
00:40:34,646 --> 00:40:36,466
Speaker 2: So when I would be coaching somebody, we'd work out

753
00:40:36,506 --> 00:40:39,556
Speaker 2: a great plan. And then I would say, okay, How

754
00:40:39,616 --> 00:40:41,596
Speaker 2: is this going to fail? Back to the example I

755
00:40:41,616 --> 00:40:45,276
Speaker 2: gave earlier, work on my novel right after the kids

756
00:40:45,316 --> 00:40:47,596
Speaker 2: get on the school bus every day. What are we

757
00:40:47,616 --> 00:40:49,096
Speaker 2: going to do on days the kids don't get on

758
00:40:49,116 --> 00:40:52,096
Speaker 2: the school bus? The answer might be, I go, that

759
00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:55,616
Speaker 2: day is just a wash. And that's fine. It's better

760
00:40:55,676 --> 00:40:58,336
Speaker 2: than feeling bad that we didn't do it that day.

761
00:40:58,396 --> 00:41:00,336
Speaker 2: It's much better just to go, well, days that the

762
00:41:00,356 --> 00:41:01,916
Speaker 2: kids don't get on the school bus, I just don't

763
00:41:01,936 --> 00:41:04,276
Speaker 2: do it. But we might come up with an alternate plan.

764
00:41:05,166 --> 00:41:09,276
Speaker 2: So those are the structural elements and the environmental alignments

765
00:41:09,356 --> 00:41:13,936
Speaker 2: that are so critical. All of these things are really

766
00:41:13,996 --> 00:41:15,936
Speaker 2: important to our chances of success.

767
00:41:16,636 --> 00:41:18,696
Speaker 1: A final aspect of resilience that you talk about a

768
00:41:18,736 --> 00:41:21,376
Speaker 1: lot in the book is the importance of other people

769
00:41:21,476 --> 00:41:24,506
Speaker 1: and social support. Talk to me about the power of

770
00:41:24,586 --> 00:41:25,366
Speaker 1: social support.

771
00:41:26,466 --> 00:41:29,726
Speaker 2: The more people support you that are in your corner,

772
00:41:30,126 --> 00:41:35,056
Speaker 2: your chances of change go up. multiple times. So this

773
00:41:35,096 --> 00:41:38,946
Speaker 2: can just be a friend asking you, hey, you know,

774
00:41:39,006 --> 00:41:40,986
Speaker 2: how'd you do with that thing today? It can be

775
00:41:41,086 --> 00:41:43,526
Speaker 2: sharing it on social media that I'm going to try

776
00:41:43,566 --> 00:41:45,626
Speaker 2: and make this change. It can be asking your partner.

777
00:41:45,926 --> 00:41:48,386
Speaker 2: I did it this morning. Last week was not a

778
00:41:48,406 --> 00:41:50,746
Speaker 2: great week for me exercise wise, right? It was book

779
00:41:50,786 --> 00:41:53,776
Speaker 2: launch week. So I said to my partner last night,

780
00:41:54,336 --> 00:41:57,276
Speaker 2: I really need to get back to exercise in the

781
00:41:57,316 --> 00:42:00,216
Speaker 2: mornings this week. you know, could you help encourage me?

782
00:42:00,596 --> 00:42:02,926
Speaker 2: She helped encourage me, right? I got back to it.

783
00:42:03,296 --> 00:42:05,576
Speaker 2: And so it's that sort of thing that makes such

784
00:42:05,596 --> 00:42:09,886
Speaker 2: a difference. And my experience of change in my life that,

785
00:42:09,966 --> 00:42:12,106
Speaker 2: you know, some of the biggest changes and obviously the

786
00:42:12,186 --> 00:42:16,926
Speaker 2: biggest one being my sobriety came with the support of

787
00:42:17,086 --> 00:42:19,786
Speaker 2: lots of other people. You know, it came through 12

788
00:42:19,786 --> 00:42:21,906
Speaker 2: step support, but we don't all have to have a

789
00:42:21,946 --> 00:42:25,456
Speaker 2: support group. to be getting support from people around us.

790
00:42:26,096 --> 00:42:28,816
Speaker 2: And it's just important to ask because we are much

791
00:42:28,916 --> 00:42:33,036
Speaker 2: more likely to achieve the goal. I've had friends who

792
00:42:33,056 --> 00:42:37,136
Speaker 2: were heroin addicts and cigarette smokers tell me that quitting

793
00:42:37,196 --> 00:42:39,856
Speaker 2: cigarettes was harder. Now, I think there are a few

794
00:42:39,916 --> 00:42:42,656
Speaker 2: different reasons for this, so I don't want to vastly oversimplify.

795
00:42:43,596 --> 00:42:46,516
Speaker 2: But I think one factor is that when they're trying

796
00:42:46,536 --> 00:42:50,676
Speaker 2: to get over heroin addiction, They were surrounded by people

797
00:42:50,776 --> 00:42:53,656
Speaker 2: helping and supporting them. And when they tried to quit smoking,

798
00:42:53,936 --> 00:42:56,396
Speaker 2: it was just them. They just said, today's the day

799
00:42:56,436 --> 00:42:57,836
Speaker 2: I'm not going to smoke. I'm not going to smoke.

800
00:42:57,896 --> 00:43:00,706
Speaker 2: I'm not going to smoke. And no help makes a

801
00:43:00,766 --> 00:43:01,426
Speaker 2: big difference.

802
00:43:02,446 --> 00:43:04,826
Speaker 1: So any strategies for asking for that help like you

803
00:43:04,866 --> 00:43:06,666
Speaker 1: did with your wife? Because I think it can be

804
00:43:06,986 --> 00:43:08,886
Speaker 1: tough to admit to other people that we want to

805
00:43:08,926 --> 00:43:09,986
Speaker 1: change and that we need some help.

806
00:43:10,666 --> 00:43:13,936
Speaker 2: So having the humility to be able to do it

807
00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:17,496
Speaker 2: is hard. I get it. And it makes such a

808
00:43:17,536 --> 00:43:19,516
Speaker 2: big difference. One way to do it is just get

809
00:43:19,576 --> 00:43:21,276
Speaker 2: other people to want to do the thing with you.

810
00:43:21,836 --> 00:43:23,546
Speaker 2: A number of years ago, when I worked in the

811
00:43:23,586 --> 00:43:26,166
Speaker 2: software business, I worked in an office. People would always

812
00:43:26,226 --> 00:43:27,686
Speaker 2: come in and be like, hey, I'm not going to

813
00:43:27,706 --> 00:43:29,586
Speaker 2: eat that today. I'm on a diet this week. And

814
00:43:29,646 --> 00:43:31,346
Speaker 2: this person would try it and that person would try it.

815
00:43:31,366 --> 00:43:33,206
Speaker 2: None of them really ever seemed to change very much.

816
00:43:34,296 --> 00:43:35,936
Speaker 2: And so finally, at one point, I was like, you

817
00:43:35,956 --> 00:43:39,356
Speaker 2: know what? Let's try something. Let's do a body fat

818
00:43:39,436 --> 00:43:42,626
Speaker 2: challenge where we're just going to take our body fat

819
00:43:42,646 --> 00:43:44,786
Speaker 2: at the beginning and the end. And whoever's body fat

820
00:43:44,846 --> 00:43:48,206
Speaker 2: changes the most in that window wins a prize. But

821
00:43:48,246 --> 00:43:50,506
Speaker 2: what was remarkable is that about all seven of us

822
00:43:51,086 --> 00:43:55,706
Speaker 2: made significant changes in those three months. Sometimes our support

823
00:43:55,746 --> 00:43:57,536
Speaker 2: was not support in the way you think of it.

824
00:43:57,586 --> 00:44:01,396
Speaker 2: Sometimes we're teasing each other. We're playing, but we're still

825
00:44:01,496 --> 00:44:04,896
Speaker 2: doing it together. There's more than just me involved in

826
00:44:04,936 --> 00:44:07,676
Speaker 2: the endeavor. And so I think there's lots of ways

827
00:44:07,796 --> 00:44:09,796
Speaker 2: to set it up. There are people in your life

828
00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:11,896
Speaker 2: you may not feel safe asking that you don't want

829
00:44:11,916 --> 00:44:14,456
Speaker 2: to ask. Don't ask them. Your partner may not be

830
00:44:14,496 --> 00:44:17,916
Speaker 2: that person. It might be random people on Facebook as

831
00:44:17,936 --> 00:44:20,156
Speaker 2: you join some group where they're all trying to do it.

832
00:44:20,716 --> 00:44:23,276
Speaker 2: So there's lots of ways to find it. And I

833
00:44:23,316 --> 00:44:24,836
Speaker 2: think it's just a matter of finding the one that

834
00:44:24,876 --> 00:44:25,776
Speaker 2: works best for you.

835
00:44:26,996 --> 00:44:28,916
Speaker 1: And so we've talked about so many different ways that

836
00:44:28,956 --> 00:44:32,226
Speaker 1: we can build our skills to change better. How has

837
00:44:32,266 --> 00:44:34,566
Speaker 1: taking this little by little approach affected the way you

838
00:44:34,606 --> 00:44:35,986
Speaker 1: achieve your own behavior change?

839
00:44:36,906 --> 00:44:39,406
Speaker 2: It's essentially how I wrote the entire book. I have

840
00:44:39,686 --> 00:44:43,586
Speaker 2: had the privilege of reading great authors for 12 years

841
00:44:43,626 --> 00:44:46,296
Speaker 2: now for my podcast. I've read probably five or 600

842
00:44:46,296 --> 00:44:49,076
Speaker 2: books in this space. So I know what a really

843
00:44:49,096 --> 00:44:51,436
Speaker 2: good book in this space looks like. And so I

844
00:44:51,476 --> 00:44:54,116
Speaker 2: got a book deal and I started writing. And I

845
00:44:54,176 --> 00:44:57,026
Speaker 2: can assure you that in the beginning, my writing did

846
00:44:57,066 --> 00:45:01,126
Speaker 2: not look anything like that. I had levels of self-doubt

847
00:45:01,226 --> 00:45:04,086
Speaker 2: I hadn't faced in forever. And so when I would

848
00:45:04,186 --> 00:45:08,326
Speaker 2: sit down and think about writing for a long period,

849
00:45:08,546 --> 00:45:10,586
Speaker 2: I just didn't want to do it. It brought up

850
00:45:10,666 --> 00:45:13,566
Speaker 2: such feelings of doubt and uncomfortableness, I would try and

851
00:45:13,746 --> 00:45:17,206
Speaker 2: just turn away. So I wrote the book 30 minutes

852
00:45:17,276 --> 00:45:20,066
Speaker 2: at a time. Now, I might say, oh, okay, it's

853
00:45:20,146 --> 00:45:23,666
Speaker 2: Monday afternoon and I have four hours available for writing.

854
00:45:24,266 --> 00:45:28,356
Speaker 2: But I, every single time, would sit down, I would

855
00:45:28,396 --> 00:45:31,076
Speaker 2: start my 30-minute timer. I would put on my playlist.

856
00:45:31,136 --> 00:45:34,436
Speaker 2: I'd set up all my distraction blockers. And my goal

857
00:45:34,796 --> 00:45:38,236
Speaker 2: was not to bail out in that 30 minutes. And

858
00:45:38,496 --> 00:45:39,876
Speaker 2: if I got to the end of that 30 minutes

859
00:45:39,916 --> 00:45:42,496
Speaker 2: and I was rolling, I would still reset the timer

860
00:45:42,756 --> 00:45:44,376
Speaker 2: and I'd do it for 30 minutes. But if I

861
00:45:44,416 --> 00:45:46,536
Speaker 2: got to the end of that 30 minutes and I

862
00:45:46,576 --> 00:45:49,776
Speaker 2: was really struggling and I was really miserable, I could

863
00:45:49,856 --> 00:45:52,396
Speaker 2: stop and walk away. And I would do a little

864
00:45:52,456 --> 00:45:54,886
Speaker 2: of the, good job, you did it. You did it.

865
00:45:54,966 --> 00:45:57,576
Speaker 2: You hung in for 30 minutes. In the beginning, I

866
00:45:57,876 --> 00:46:00,416
Speaker 2: simply was like, if I put the time in, I

867
00:46:01,296 --> 00:46:05,136
Speaker 2: get the A plus gold star. Now, over time, you

868
00:46:05,876 --> 00:46:08,636
Speaker 2: start to see results from that. And the process gets

869
00:46:08,676 --> 00:46:11,116
Speaker 2: a little bit easier. It never gets easy, but it

870
00:46:11,156 --> 00:46:14,726
Speaker 2: gets easier. But that's kind of how I wrote the book.

871
00:46:14,886 --> 00:46:18,426
Speaker 2: And so I follow that advice. And then the other

872
00:46:18,506 --> 00:46:20,186
Speaker 2: one is I use that phrase, a little bit of

873
00:46:20,226 --> 00:46:22,126
Speaker 2: something is better than a lot of nothing. I used

874
00:46:22,166 --> 00:46:25,316
Speaker 2: it this morning. I meant to exercise this morning. I

875
00:46:25,356 --> 00:46:28,056
Speaker 2: did not make the best choices in the world early on.

876
00:46:28,076 --> 00:46:30,256
Speaker 2: You know, I'm still checking, like, how are the reviews

877
00:46:30,336 --> 00:46:34,016
Speaker 2: on Amazon? And, you know, did so-and-so share it? And

878
00:46:34,036 --> 00:46:35,696
Speaker 2: then I realized, okay, well, I don't have time to

879
00:46:35,736 --> 00:46:37,796
Speaker 2: do what I planned to do. Then I hopped on

880
00:46:37,816 --> 00:46:40,776
Speaker 2: the exercise bike for 15 minutes. I still was like,

881
00:46:40,816 --> 00:46:42,276
Speaker 2: a little bit of something is better than a lot

882
00:46:42,296 --> 00:46:44,996
Speaker 2: of nothing. And that is valuable.

883
00:46:47,876 --> 00:46:49,916
Speaker 1: So if there's been a small change you've been struggling

884
00:46:49,936 --> 00:46:52,756
Speaker 1: to make, why not take Eric's advice and start small?

885
00:46:53,376 --> 00:46:57,056
Speaker 1: Choose actions that feel manageable to you. Focus on consistency

886
00:46:57,256 --> 00:47:00,236
Speaker 1: over perfection. And make sure the goal you're working toward

887
00:47:00,376 --> 00:47:04,086
Speaker 1: is something you actually value. Because those little bits of progress,

888
00:47:04,206 --> 00:47:07,806
Speaker 1: repeated over time, can ultimately change your life. If you'd

889
00:47:07,826 --> 00:47:09,666
Speaker 1: like to hear more about Eric's advice on how to

890
00:47:09,686 --> 00:47:12,506
Speaker 1: make lasting change, check out his book, How a Little

891
00:47:12,586 --> 00:47:16,086
Speaker 1: Becomes a Lot, which is out now. Next week, we'll

892
00:47:16,106 --> 00:47:20,276
Speaker 1: continue our back-to-school book series with comedian Chris Duffy. I'll

893
00:47:20,296 --> 00:47:22,776
Speaker 1: ask him about some of my favorite takeaways from his

894
00:47:22,836 --> 00:47:25,666
Speaker 1: new book, Humor Me. and will learn that embracing your

895
00:47:25,706 --> 00:47:28,986
Speaker 1: inner goofball can help you become a better version of yourself.

896
00:47:29,306 --> 00:47:31,606
Speaker 3: The humor that I want to celebrate is the kind

897
00:47:31,706 --> 00:47:34,506
Speaker 3: where you are just laughing so hard that you're holding

898
00:47:34,546 --> 00:47:36,686
Speaker 3: your sides and tears are streaming down your face. And

899
00:47:36,706 --> 00:47:40,356
Speaker 3: it's really hard afterwards to even explain what was funny

900
00:47:40,436 --> 00:47:44,496
Speaker 3: about that. But in that moment, you are so locked in, 100% present.

901
00:47:44,556 --> 00:47:47,356
Speaker 3: And that is, these days, very rare to have that

902
00:47:47,396 --> 00:47:50,636
Speaker 3: complete 100% presence with another person where they're not like

903
00:47:50,676 --> 00:47:52,616
Speaker 3: half on their phone or half thinking about something else.

904
00:47:53,076 --> 00:47:55,956
Speaker 1: That's all next week on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr.

905
00:47:56,006 --> 00:47:56,726
Speaker 1: Laurie Santos.