WEBVTT - The Employee Advantage, Rings of Power 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:10.479 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Bloomberg Business 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.720 Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:18.119 America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:22.000 tech news as it happens. Bloomberg Business Week with Carol 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.560 Messer and Tim Stenevek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.520 It is Bloomberg Business Week. That's Carol Master. I'm Tim 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.280 Stenevec Labor. It's been front and center. Two weeks after 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.200 Boeming tried and failed end to strike with the brash 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.320 move of a direct offer to workers, the Planemaker and 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.320 its largest union are taking another stab to end the stalemate. 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:39.959 Yes they are. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.560 This comes after Thursday's news that US DOC workers agreed 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.800 to end a three day strike that had paralyzed trade 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.479 on the US East and Gulf Coast and threatened to 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.080 become a factor in the presidential election. 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.199 Lot going on, Yes, So couple this in with the 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.960 return to office push that's coming hello Amazon last month. 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.560 No question, companies are thinking a lot about employees. But 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.240 the question is are we having the right coma We've 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.760 got with us Doctor Stephan Meyer, he follows all this closely. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.320 He's the James P. Gorman, Professor of Business at Columbia 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:07.880 Business School. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:08.840 He's the author of. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.319 A forthcoming book, The Employee Advantage, How Putting Workers First 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.880 Helps Businesses Thrive, Help business Thrive, which come out comes 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:18.000 out on October fifteenth. He joins us here in the 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:19.880 Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio. 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:21.080 Full disclosure. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.120 Professor Meyer was my professor back in the fall of 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:24.800 twenty sixteen. 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.319 Tim a good student. That's all we wanted. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.559 We have grade no disclosure at the Business School. 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:29.520 However I did. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.480 I did like blake your eyes. You know what good It. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:35.520 Is the perfect course for journalists. 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:36.800 Yeah, it sounds like it. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.200 It's all case studies kind of stuff we love. I 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.240 didn't have to do a lot of excel in that class, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:45.160 which was not my strong suit coming econometrics it was. 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.920 It was. It was actually an awesome class. Professor. Good 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:49.600 to see you got your things from the book. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:50.920 Thanks for having me here. 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:51.880 See you again. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.800 It was a was a great student. Disclosing without disclosing degrades. 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.440 He was amazing. Thank you. I appreciate that. You're good 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:00.760 to know. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.080 So Carol and I were talking about this ahead of 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:04.720 ahead of the interview, and we got a good bit 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:06.880 of time with you, so we're happy about that. She 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.680 reminded me about this letter back in twenty nineteen from 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.800 the Business Roundtable, which talked about the idea of investors 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.160 having to think differently about so called stakeholders, right companies 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.160 moving away from shareholder primacy and committing to all stakeholders, 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.560 including employees. Yet here we are five years later, has 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:26.760 anything actually shifted? 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.520 Well, I actually don't think so. 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.799 That feels like a no, Yes, I actually. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:35.720 Don't think so. Now, to be perfect lens, I've never 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.399 met an executive who doesn't think or says that employees 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.600 are the most important asset. But when you actually look 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.000 at the data, you know, if you look at how 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.320 often do they talk about them compared to customers, like 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.320 ten times less than customers. How engaged are people at work? 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.600 Not that much? You know, Like according to Gallup there 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:01.320 is like sixty seven percent of workers are disengaged at work. 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.360 So I don't think they're doing a good job. 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:06.560 Is there always like that amount of people are just 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:07.560 like it's a job. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.720 I don't think so. I mean, I think that's part 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.120 of the problem. Kind of the mindset is like, you know, 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:16.600 they don't want to work anyway, so I have to 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:22.000 either incentivize them hard or control them even harder. But 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.520 that's just not true. I mean people actually like work. 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.400 I mean, you know, there's a limit to it. It's 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.840 still yeah, but people actually come to work, you know, 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.960 because they you know, it's part of their identity. If 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.960 it's done well, if they're really engaged, you know, it's 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:40.760 a it's a fulfilling thing. I mean, I mean, I'm 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.800 sure the two of you like. 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.680 You we do actually your job? Do we really do? 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.800 We really do like to come to the job. You know, 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.760 there's something about it. I mean, I also love my job. 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.520 There is something I do and what I do. I'm 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.120 there are many, many people across the income distribution. It's 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.840 also not just people who earn a lot. There is 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.480 others who don't wound up much, but who are happy 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:03.880 at work. 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:04.560 I like the other. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:04.839 Yeah. 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.680 God, well, I was gonna say what we don't hear though, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.400 And we're about to go into earning season. What moves 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.000 a company's stock is top line bottom line for the 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.640 current quarter, what things looked like last quarter that outlook. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.800 One number we don't hear about is employee turnover at 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:22.400 the company in the beginning of your book, you talk 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:28.120 about Amazon's focus relentle jeftbezis is relentless focus on the consumer, 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.960 on the customer. But then you talk about that twenty 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.960 fifteen New York Times expos that talked about what a 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.039 terrible place many people thought Amazon was to work. It 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.560 didn't seem to affect the way shareholders felt about the company. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.680 No, And I think it's a problem. I think we 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.239 have to think about how the employees think now. In fairness, 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.720 I think Amazon for the longest time also got some 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.520 heat because they were customer centric. Was like, wow, you're 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.920 spending so much money on customers, where's the profits, like whatever? 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.640 And back then they said like, look, you just wait. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.359 I mean it's actually, if we improve the experience for 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.440 our customers, eventually we can make money. We can actually 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.560 increase the price. And I think the same should be 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.720 true with employees. If we improve the experience for our employees, 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.640 you know, productivity, cost per unit goes down. Because productivity 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.880 goes up, turnover goes down, innovation goes up, and you know, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.440 in the customer experience, if they actually have contact to 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.679 customers goes up as well. You know, I heard before 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.360 you talked about Costco quick. You know, people at Costco 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:32.120 are happy, Yeah, the customers and the employees, and you 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:33.320 feel it when you go in there. 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:34.839 And that's a company that was always like front and 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:39.040 center in terms of healthcare and benefits. Why is it 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.200 as long as they're a publicly held company or many 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.440 companies are publicly held, is it going to be hard 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.520 for an executive to kind of not think about cutting 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.680 costs when it comes to employees and not worrying so 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.360 much about that Because I feel like part of our 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.960 political problems or economical problems or the economy is people 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.679 feeling left behind and companies that are making tons of money. 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.159 We talked about this with the dog worker strike, and 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.240 yet they're not feeling like they're a part of it. 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.800 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the hard part 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:11.840 is if you want to cut costs in the short term, 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.640 short term, the easiest is like to cud labor. Yeah, 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.120 in the short term, that's an easy thing to do. 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.760 I mean a little bit. If you want to, you know, 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.880 slash your marketing budget, that's also easy to do in 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.320 the short term. But in the long term it's just 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.919 not a good idea. And I think even publicly traded company, 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:36.440 if they can communicate to their investors that you know, 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.880 it's in the best interest. I think it's a good 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.440 strategy going forward. When you know when best Buy was 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.159 about to be turned I mean when best Buy was 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.880 when you know all their competitor were out of business, 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.320 everybody like best Buy. I mean that's like who And 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.000 so Hubert Jolly comes in and he does a very 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.240 human centric turnover and he got exactly that advice. He's 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.520 like cod labor, you know, cut, cut, cut, and he 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.960 says like, no, I don't do that. What I actually 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.760 want to do is understand what really happens in the store. 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:10.800 Our blue shirts need to be happy. I need to 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.239 understand what the problem is. And he did and turned 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.400 around the company in a very successful way, I think 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.880 where the shareholders were actually happy in the end. 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.960 So best Buy and Hubert Shorely is one example. What's 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.320 another example of a of a company that has been 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.400 rewarded by Wall Street for treating its workers right? 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.760 I mean, I think Costco is one that does it 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:36.119 really well. Does there tweats their employee nicely and and 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.520 turns it around. I think Etsy was one that did 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.600 like a turnaround in a. They were probably a little 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:48.040 too employee centric at the beginning, and meaning, you know, 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.400 employee centric is not like giving perks. I think, like 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:53.800 you know, free yoga classes are okay, but I mean 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.320 that's not cutting it or like ping pong tables or 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.480 free snacks or whatever. And I think they figured that 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.200 out did turnaround which cut some of those perks, but 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.800 it's still very very employees centric organization. 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.000 What are you know, what is it that employees want? 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.080 Is it salary? Is it benefits? Is it a pretty office? 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:15.120 Is it? 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:15.880 What is it? 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:20.240 Yeah? I mean I think it's actually less about monetary 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:25.000 or those perks. That's not what really keeps people motivated. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.280 I mean, there's very few people who get up in 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.560 the morning is like, you know, today I'm going to 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.440 increase the return and invest in capital by like half 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.920 a percentage point, Like I'm so jast very few do that. 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.360 I mean, obviously there's if you don't make enough money, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:40.960 you know, it's also a problem. I mean it's like 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.600 money is really really important if you have to worry 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.720 about making ends meet, But once you reach a certain level, 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.240 it's not money. I mean I talk in the book 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:51.240 about well then. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:51.920 Is that the employees. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.520 You're talking about that those that are already making a 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.920 decent salary, because I do feel like there's a sector 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.640 of our economy that just can't make it. So hang 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:04.360 on a second, because we've got to do a little 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.120 bit of news, and I feel like we've got a 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.040 lot of good stuff to unpack here. We're going to 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.720 come back with Stefan Meyer. He is the James Gorman 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:13.679 Professor of Business at Columbia Business School. He's got a 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.520 new book out called The Employee Advantage, How putting workers 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:21.720 first helps business thrive. It sounds so logical, makes sense, right, 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.520 and yet it as you say, we're getting ready for 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.400 earning season, and it's not one of the things that 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.200 we're going to highlight, right unless there's a lawsuit, then 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:29.960 we talk about. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:30.880 It against a company. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.240 That's when it makes news and moves the stock price. 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:34.040 For now, though for. 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.040 Now exactly, we're going to come back right here on 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:37.120 Bloomberg Business Week. 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:39.960 I want to get right back to our interview with 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.520 Professor Stefan Meyer. He is the James Gorman Professor of 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:48.559 Business at Columbia Business School. He is a former FED official. 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:50.920 He worked at the Federal Reserve. I should say at 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:56.200 the Federal Reserve at Boston and also New York as well. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.880 The new book The Employee Advantage, How Putting workers for 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.880 Helps business Thrive. Professor, I want to talk a little 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.160 bit about where the pandemic fits into all this and 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.679 thinking about it in the context of how employees think 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:11.960 differently about their work. There seemed to be a shift 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.240 take place. Just look at the pushback that Amazon is 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.400 getting right now to bringing workers back to five days 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.560 a week. That's a distinct example. And you write about 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.240 Amazon in the book. But how do you think about 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:23.240 the pandemic shifting this? 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.000 Yeah, thank you, Tim. I mean I think the pandemic 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.319 shifted the lat It put like a really bright spotlight 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:35.120 on what actually didn't work well before. I don't think 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.120 like with the pandemic it suddenly was broken, but we 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:42.680 figured out something is just not working well. And that 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.800 spotlight really woke up a lot of people. They're like, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:47.480 really do I want to do that? Is that the 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.920 right way of doing so? And the remote work is 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:52.560 just one you know, where we thought like we can 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.080 never do I mean, it's never possible. Turns out yeah, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.439 but it's kind of fish and now we have to 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.880 figure out like how much. But it's definitely I mean, 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.440 in my view, it's definitely five days a week is 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.000 not why should that be the optimal? Maybe there's sometimes 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.200 but like I don't see why five days should be. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.760 And people woke up to like, maybe how we did things, 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.840 how bosses behaved, how the workplace was structured, is maybe 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.120 not the way we should do or have to do it. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.960 Because the pydemic showed us we can actually do it diffinitely, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.520 And I think it was a really real big wake 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.760 up call that late first to you know, great resignation 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.319 and people rethinking like what are our opportunities? What are 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.000 my priorities in work? And do I really want to 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.600 work for a workplace that doesn't treat me as much 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.440 as as well as I actually think I should should 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:43.680 be treated. Well? 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:44.520 Have we changed them? 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.080 Because it does feel like a lot of people are 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.480 being called back to the office and all of these 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.880 kind of new wave of thinking of maybe how we 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.640 work we thought would be with us forever, but are 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:54.520 we seeing it kind. 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.760 Of roll back? And is that maybe not smart? That 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:58.839 we're not evolving? 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.839 Yeah and transform, I mean I don't think we're I mean, 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.720 when you look at how many percentage of workdays at home. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.240 I think we're plateaued some like thirty percent of the days. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.280 But like obviously the news of like Amazon, you know, 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.240 calling everybody back, and it's kind of ironic obviously, almost 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.400 like I talk in the example, my first example is 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.920 about Amazon and they like that they're not as employee 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.600 centric and whatever and now and I thought, well, well, 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.480 maybe they turn around because Bezos actually said we want 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.120 to be the most the best employer as well. Turns 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.280 out they're the ones who I'll call everybody back. I 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.320 think it's a huge mistake and it kind of shows 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.280 that we haven't evolved as much, Carol, that we you know, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.200 they didn't listen to their employee as much as they 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:44.720 would do their customers. They would do focus groups and 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:49.720 like all customer insight right journeys, and now they're doing 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:54.000 something or seventy five percent of Amazon employees hate. 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:55.760 Well do you miss because you get into the book, 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.599 like you talk about purpose statements that companies need to 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.160 put out, and I do wonder. We work at a 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.520 company that has a very distinct culture and we talk 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.560 about it a lot, and people who come in you 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.680 feel it right from the get go. And it was 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.920 important for people to be back here. And part of 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.320 it is that we running. You know, when you walk in, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.920 it's this big open area and everybody from all different 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.520 departments are running into one another, and things do happen 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.760 when you run into somebody, And I do wonder does 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.680 culture get lost working at home? You talk about the 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.320 importance of purpose statements for employees, so I wonder there's 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.400 something to that. Absolutely, I mean you find it only 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:34.800 at the office rightly. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:39.520 There was actually two motivators that I describe that deal 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.560 with are affected when we think about remote work. One 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.560 is the flexibility autonomy and the other one what I 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.080 call working together works. We have to be kind of 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:52.440 together being in a good team. Now, do we need 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.880 to be together forty hours a week? 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.600 Probably not sure. It does, love you, tim, but. 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.680 Sometimes it feels like we're or more it does culture matter? Yeah, 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.199 But like you know, when we were in the off, 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.520 when everybody was in the in the office five days 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.400 a week, Like I guess like fifty percent of companies 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.040 that like toxic work cultures, just because we're together doesn't 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.840 make it great. If you have a good culture, you know, 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.000 and you're really intentional about it, it's probably a good thing, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.040 but again, doesn't need forty hours or like you know, 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.400 there are downsides. Mentoring might not work so well. Do 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.720 we do forty hours of mentoring? I don't think so. 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.480 Do we do forty hours of like water moon or 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.280 like kombucha tap moments? I don't think so. So we 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:40.400 couldn't be actually much. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:41.480 We haven't had that yet. 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.000 We haven't had You don't have a kombu. 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:47.640 We don't have kombuch like a lot of other taps. 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.840 I want to talk about some more sort of examples 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.120 that are happening in real time. We used to talk 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.320 to Brian Nicol, the new CEO of Starbucks all the time. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.280 We have spoken him since he became CEO of Starbucks. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.360 We talked him or so here. But I'm curious how 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.440 you're looking at sort of that transition there, because there's 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.800 a labor challenge with union and potential unionization, and then 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.720 there's also the corporate challenge where he's like loves Newport 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.280 Beach and they need him in Seattle, so he's like 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:16.640 on a private jet quite a bit. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.520 Yeah, funny enough. I actually wrote an opet giving advice 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:26.560 to him. The advice is like doing a human centric turnover. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:31.800 I mean Starbucks where you employed the baristas are critically important. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.640 If you feel if you go into the Starbucks and 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.560 you feel welcoming, the whole point was like that you 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.760 have like the baristas and they're really happy. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:42.640 I feel like I did a case study on Starbucks 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:44.400 in your class. 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.120 Well, yeah, good, you remember that. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.760 And and I do think it's like really important to 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.400 not fall into that myth of like, you know cutting, 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.200 we talked before about like should you should he cut 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.320 costs right away in this turnaround, And I don't think so. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.920 In the long term, it's better to actually listen to 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:06.480 you know, your workforce, working with the union or not. 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.880 You know, often when you actually treat your employees well, 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.680 they don't unionize because they're happy to begin with. 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.560 And they're good with customers help. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.400 You can't you can't get happy customers without happy employees. 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.240 I think there is no way you can't walk into 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.320 a Starbuck and everybody is miserable and then be happy 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.880 about paying whatever how much a Lotte is nowadays, but 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.560 about a ridiculous amount of money for a Lotte, which 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.720 part of it is the coffee, and part of it 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.240 is the atmosphere that you're that you're buying, and so 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.560 you need like happy employees in order to create that 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.320 feeling and also to make them productive. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.200 It is amazing in a service led economy. And we 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.800 all have horror stories of being on hold. I had 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.640 somebody with a particular company, telecom company, who was on 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.200 hold for like four or five and you know, she's like, 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.919 Luckily I could be at home doing stuff and be 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.240 on whold because I had to deal with an issue. 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.240 But most people don't. 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.119 Have that time you're at work, like you know, we 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.040 have to hang up, got to go do our show. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.800 But I do wonder, like what's happened, because it just 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.680 seems like in a service led economy, service has gone 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.520 to the wayside. I've got into stores and there's nobody 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.520 around to help me, or there's somebody, you know, I'm 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.440 buying something and they're on their cell phone while they're 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.920 checking me out or something, or I check myself out, 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.760 Like so, isn't it kind. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.800 Of surprising that, yeah, if it's service. 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.480 Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more with you, Carol. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.600 I mean, I think like they in a service economy, 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.040 the employees has to be creately coal important and you 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.160 need to treat them well. And I think Costco again 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.560 is a good example. There is this other for those 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.680 of the listener who are from Texas, there is h EB. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.159 It's a grocery store in Texas where I tell that 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.560 story where like they opened the store outside of Dallas 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.040 and people would line up through the night to be 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.320 the first person in that grocery store. It's a grocery 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.600 store and it's a very employee centric organization, and it 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.199 creates this atmosphere where people are welcomed and love it 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.480 to be there. And so I think they, as my 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.199 book says, you know, you tweet your employees nice and 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.119 then the business actually thrives as a result. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.840 I was going to say, you're a behavioral economist. You 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.760 teach students every semester at Columbia Business School. A top 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.520 industry these students want to be in is consulting. Consultants 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.440 often are told to cut costs. 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:39.960 So there's this. 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:41.440 Mood production overseas. 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.560 There's this circle that kind of needs to be disrupted, 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:45.679 I imagine in your view, and I'm wondering how that 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.160 message is being received at the school and in your class. 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.879 I mean, I try so you know, it's a topic 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.040 where like everybody on the one it says like, yeah, 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.080 I'm for it, the question is whether they actually implement it. 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.560 And I think it's the same with obviously customers centricity. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.440 You know, there is no executive who says, so, I 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.119 don't care about customers, but only if you can really 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.040 pull it off to be really customer centric. And I 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.439 think the same is true with employees that you know, 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.359 if you really care and you really put in the 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.840 work to be employee centric, the benefits will come, but 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.640 it's going to be delayed. You know, we talked about 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.359 this before. It's not a short term thing. If you 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.880 want to, yeah, the easiest way to cut cost right 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.880 now is to cut labor force. That's often the biggest 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.400 factor in the cost structure. 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.879 It feels kind of depressing, like the outlook, because it 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:36.719 just sounds like you have a couple of examples, but 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:38.159