WEBVTT - Unraveling the Mythic 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:05.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stop 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:15.320 works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.599 My name is Robert lamp and I'm Christian Seger. Here 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:19.919 on Stuff to Blow your Mind. We talk about myths 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.640 from lottop on mythology either, you know, sometimes it's directly 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.200 tied into a topic. Sometimes it's just kind of the 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.400 icing on the cake, you know. Yeah, you'll hear us 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.600 often refer to mythos a lot, like in the background, 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.599 especially like if we bring up topics like I don't know, 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:39.080 pop culture, uh HP, Lovecraft type stuff that we we 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.519 talked about often. So we're applying both myth as like 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.960 the large general sense of the term, and then mythos 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.960 as like these sort of like fictional shared universes with 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.559 histories to them. Right. Yeah, So it's it's something we're 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.000 always talking about. So it seemed fitting to do an 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.840 episode where we say, hey, let's talk just a little 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.880 bit about mythology now, would Don't worry, We're not gonna 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:05.960 attempt to do a like complete overall of world myth cycles. 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.880 What we're hoping to do here is to, uh it, 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.679 to provide you some of the basic tools to to 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.280 roll through some of the different ways that we look 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.520 at myth, the different ways that we dissect myth and 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.440 understand what they mean to us and what the power 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.160 of myth really is. Yeah, this is like very much 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.040 like a bare bones intro. And I imagine that if 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:27.960 there are people out there who have done any kind 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:34.080 of cultural or anthropological studies of myth before, you're gonna say, oh, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.640 but what about this detailer, what about this thing that 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.600 you missed? And you know, there was only so much 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.080 that we could fit into a one hour episode, right, 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.120 And likewise, when it comes to examples, we're gonna We're 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.080 gonna not We're probably not gonna use a lot of 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.160 examples in here, but we are going to end up 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.960 using some of the basic Greek examples that most of 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.120 our listeners are gonna be familiar with. This is not, 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.840 in a by any means intended to slight any of 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.560 the fascinating cultures out there, but we're probably going to 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.960 draw cards from the deck that most people familiar with, 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.920 and probably some cards from the decks that we've you know, 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.760 built ourselves out of things that interest us. Yeah, in particular, 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.400 like I should probably just state this upfront, like I 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:16.080 if you listen to the show before, you know that 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.200 I'm a comic book nerd. You know that I like 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.680 superheroes and have done research on superheroes in the past. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.280 In particular, like the research I did when I was 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:32.840 at a university was about mythology, rhetoric, and Captain America ironically, 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.960 because that Captain American movie just came out. Um, And 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.640 so yeah, I have a lot of like superhero type 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.000 examples or pop culture examples that will probably come to 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.200 mind as we're talking about this, but also I'm gonna 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.320 try to stay on target. Yeah. Likewise, I've been reading 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.280 a lot of Chinese mythology recently, and so some of 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:50.920 my examples are going to draw from that, just because 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.000 it's fresh on my mind. But all of it is 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.200 going to be intended to to to provide you with 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.360 the tools to to go through these different ways of 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.560 looking at myth and uh and you know, provide something 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:03.960 that that the listeners of the show can't take with 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.680 them as we explore other mythologies, even as a tangent 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:10.840 in the future. So I have a challenge for us 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.760 and a challenge for you the listener as well as 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.880 we proceed, Um. Let's also consider, right, this is a 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.840 science podcast, and as we've been we've been, we've been 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.080 sort of inching our way towards this over the last 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:23.919 i don't know, two or three months with episodes like 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.600 we Could Problems and cargo cult science and things like that. 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:31.000 But let's consider is it possible that some form of 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.640 science is used today as mythology for our present culture? 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:40.160 Because I think that's something that there might be something there. Uh, 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.760 and if so, how is it? And then just for funzies, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.560 who are our scientific deities? Uh? You know, Robert and 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:49.360 I have joked many times before on the show about 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.560 how like we're putting together was slowly putting together a 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.360 psychedelic Avengers of all these psychedelic scientists that we talked 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.440 about on the show. But in general, like I feel 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.480 like there are some scientists when you refer to them, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.000 they're referred to with the reverence that people used to 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:08.400 refer to Zeus or thor with. Right, It's like Carl 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.320 Sagan can do no wrong or Einstein. You know, well, 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.720 they these are legendary individuals and science. And we'll get 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.640 into the connections between myth and legend here. As we 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.360 roll all right, So we'll keep that in mind, but 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.400 let's hit it all right. So let's start with the basics. 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.240 Just the word mythology. What does it, What does it 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:32.400 come from? Well, myth an ology, myth and logos myth 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.160 being the proto Indo European root move is involved. Here 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.599 is then to murmur and from this we get the 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.080 Greek mythos, meaning word or story. So this is gonna 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.200 be very important because as we go through this, you're 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.839 going to see that you know, and and this sounds 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.640 like a no type thing, but there's an inherent connection 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:58.200 between myth, mythology and human language and how that defines 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.200 both culture and how we understand the world. Right, So 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.679 of course it would be named after murmuring and words. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.760 All right. So that's the word mythology. And certainly I 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.880 think when most when when a lot of us here 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.200 the word mythology, the first thing that enters your mind 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.120 is maybe just a you know, a quick glance at 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.520 the Greek pantheon. Yeah, I think I like a clash 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.240 of the Titans. Yeah, like old old gods, stories that 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.760 have a very human aspect to them. Um. And it's 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:28.360 one of those things that it makes it difficult then 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.760 to talk about myth in other areas such as like, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.880 for instance, been talking about Christianity to talk about myth. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.240 People here you say myth and they take it as 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.400 an insult because they think, oh, myth is a thing 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.800 that's not true and that is just mildly amusing in 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.560 big budget sandals movies exactly exactly, And that's something I 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.640 think we should try to dispel today too, is like 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.880 that myth is is larger than just these ideas we 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.800 think of them today as being fictionalized stories, right, But 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.160 to the Greeks and the Romans that worshiped those gods, 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.000 they were just as real to them as uh Einstein 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.960 and Carl Sagan are to us. Yeah, and it in 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.480 mythology as well. Discuss here is a powerful force. And 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.600 even though you might you might think of Greek gods 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.760 and whatever is just you know, mirror window dressing is 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.640 just something that's just aesthetically pleasing. We are all living 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.240 in the shadows of mythology. And yet at the same time, 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.440 the human experience cast the shadow of mythology. So keep 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.560 it very nice to keep that word shadow in mind 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.720 for when we get the good old Carl Young, Oh, yes, 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.960 all right, So under this heading, though, is there anything 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.560 that we can agree upon this kind of universally considered. Yeah, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.119 that's what a myth is, generally speaking about. The only 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.160 thing we can everyone agrees on is that mythologies are stories, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.960 their narratives. There's a lot of disagreement on whether those 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.560 narratives are inherently sacred, you know, which is to say 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.440 they involve gods in the supernatural. Can you have a 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.000 myth that doesn't involve a god or god like being? Well, 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.160 that's an issue of discussion and another thing to consider here. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.320 This is from just the basic definition in the Salem 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:11.120 Press encyclopedia is that myths are stories, beliefs, fables, legends, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.080 whatever you wanna call them. We're gonna sort of slice 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.360 that pie up a little bit later. But they reflect 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.120 the culture of the people who write and listen to them, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.520 right So, and what they're often trying to do is 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.680 provide explanations for how the world works. Ironic, because we 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.119 are working for How Stuff Works this is How Stuff 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:34.000 Works podcast. So, uh, you know, while we provide explanations 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.160 for how stuff works, uh, the old way of doing 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.800 so was to say, well, the reason why that lightning 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.360 struck that tree over there was because Zeus was angry, right, 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.880 something like along those lines. Uh. So, for example, it 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.560 was natural phenomena that human beings didn't quite understand yet, 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.120 and so they told stories of heroes that were up 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.800 against good and evil steaks to explain those things. So 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.640 they explain our place in the world, or at least 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.880 they try to write to us. It's it's that old 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.800 like sort of very meta thing of like the stories 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.280 are us looking at ourselves Like fiction mythology is just 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.480 like uh, us creating an eyeball that's looking right back 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.240 at ourselves and then trying to explain ourselves to us, 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.840 which is is a weird thing to think about. Um, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.280 but it's everything from creation myths like well, how the 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.800 world start? How? How why am I here? Who rules 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.520 the world? What's the afterlife? Like? Like? All of that 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:35.679 stuff stems from mythology, and there's so many shared similar themes. 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.960 We're gonna see that throughout all the things we talked 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.840 about today, from virgin births to great floods. Uh, they're 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.360 constantly being reinvented and passed down. And I would argue 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:51.040 even into today's you know, a huge popular culture epics 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.439 of whether it's your superhero movies or your Lord of 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.240 the Rings or Star Wars or whatever, we see these 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:00.240 played out in similar ways. They're uh anthropolo just in 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.160 cultural critics have been trying to trace these connections for centuries, 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.120 and we're going to talk about some some like key 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.400 points I would say in the last what like two 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:14.160 hundred years of mythological study. But it's complicated, uh, and 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.520 nobody has like a singular answer, so I kind of 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.880 want to dispel that right away, Like there's no this 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.960 is how it is right there. There are certainly interpretations 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.640 that are more popular. For instance, the etiological explanation that 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.680 you just mentioned, the idea that myths are about explaining 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:33.840 what the world is and how the world works, like 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.360 that is one that a lot of views say, Yeah, 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.800 that that is one of the powers of myth, that's 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.520 one of the reasons for myth. But there are a 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.280 number of different ways to look at it, and a 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.240 number of these different ways to look at them are 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:51.960 tied to specific um uh, specific areas of study, specific 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:57.000 academic approaches. Yeah, and like it's easy to trace that 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.079 back to like very simple things that we feel like 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.560 we have a grasp on now, like the changing of 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.880 the seasons or something like that, right, but at the 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.760 time it was explained through mythology. Al Right, Before we 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.520 roll into some of the views on mythology, let's take 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.440 a few minutes just to talk about the formal features 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.559 of prose narrative as they relate to myth, legend, and folklore, 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.520 because these are three terms that are often used interchangeably, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:28.080 but they really kind of refer to different things. Um. Yeah, 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.240 and I think to like, uh, we should point out 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.320 that the distinctions that we're about to give come from 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.880 a book on Chinese mythology by is it in Barrel? 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.480 I believe so. Yes, Yeah, it's a book I've picked 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.960 up recently, and in addition to being just a great 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.800 exploration of Chinese mythology, it has a wonderful some wonderful 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:50.600 introductory material that summarizes some some key stuff about mythology. Yeah, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.840 and this is great stuff, but it's also like, I 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.200 think that we should also question some of the definitions 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:57.880 too as we go. Yeah, I mean that's the that's 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.640 the thing when you like something to keep in mind 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:02.400 with any any of this one we're talking about mythology, 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.320 like mythology is almost a It exists outside of our 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.520 attempts to neatly categorize it. And so there's a and 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.760 throwing too many classifications at it. But but I I 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.640 tend to like this idea of just sort of breaking 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.880 it up so it's nice myth, legend, and folk tale. 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.080 There's there's a table in this book, um that that 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.480 lays it out in terms of like, what's the conventional opening? 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.640 Can you tell this story after dark? Is this scene 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.600 as a factor of fiction? What's the setting, like the 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.920 attitude the principal character. So I'm not gonna roll through 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.880 the whole list, but for instance, in a myth, you're 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.720 you're generally talking about a non human character. A legend 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:45.600 is going to be more of a human character, and 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.280 then a folk tale can be either one. Um, A 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.920 myth definitely has a sacred feel to it, you know 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:58.200 that the gods, superhumans, godlike entities. Legend can be either 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.520 sacred or secular, and then a folk tale tends to 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.480 be secular in terms of setting. Uh, myth and legend 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.240 are just sometime in some place where folk tales are timeless. Uh, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.319 as far as belief goes, myth and legend are essentially facts, 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:18.120 and that's kind of a that's a problematic term, but well, yeah, 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.120 let's address that in a second. You go, Yeah, but 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.000 the myth and the legend as it is told it 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.160 is real in some way, shape or form, whereas the 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.319 folk tale is just pure fiction, like nobody is actually believing, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.079 you know, in the Boogeyman, nobody thinks Johnny Appleseed I 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.240 actually walked all across actually with apple seeds. Yeah. So, 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:36.720 so these are just some of the ideas to keep 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.960 in mind to flesh this out a little bit. Let's 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.520 roll through some examples. First of just straight up myths. 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.880 So I think the the Greek examples that come to 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.240 mind most easily, probably you know, stuff having to do 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:50.760 with the origin of the universe though, the fall of 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.600 the Titans, the rise of the gods, that sort of thing. Yeah, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.439 that's like the go to I think most of us. Uh. 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.880 And it's interesting, I wonder why that's the one like 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.520 mythological pantheon that, especially in Western culture we still like 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.800 really gravitate too. But I loved reading stories about that 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.559 and Norris mythology to a certain extent when I was 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.199 a kid. Well, those tales have been They've been told 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.400 and retold so many times as part of Western literature 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.240 that that they're that they've just been carried and held 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.280 on a pedestal this whole time. One of the interesting 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.160 things about looking at Chinese mythology is that you don't 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.040 see that case. There's not there's not a homer that 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.320 is that is retelling these things necessarily, So you have 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.640 we have less of our tradition of the mythology being 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.280 upheld by the scholars throughout the ages um. In the 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.920 Christian world you have Adam and Eve, the whole you know, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.480 Garden of Eden, that the origins of Man, the Origins 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:50.720 of sin Um certainly classifies as as mythology um elsewhere 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.479 in the world Um. Chinese mythology, for instance, there's an 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.200 archer by the name of Ye and shoots down the 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.760 extra nine sons in the sky, so that the world's 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.160 not we don't need so many sons. So this is 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.600 a good segue into me talking about superheroes for a second, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.920 because you just wrote a fantastic piece on Chinese mythology 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:15.359 connecting to the world of superheroes. Uh, and in particular 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.320 you wrote about a recent d C comics uh team 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.160 called the Great Ten that we're based on Chinese mythology. 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.280 So listeners, I highly recommend, uh you go and find 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.360 that piece. It's on now dot how Stuff Works dot com, right, yeah, uh, 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.800 and and go take a read because Robert does a 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.240 great job with that. But I will segue from that 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:41.960 from Chinese myth into superheroes and into Western superheroes. I 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:47.120 will make the argument throughout this episode that, especially like 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:51.560 our big budget uh d C comics, Marvel comics, superheroes 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.760 are archetypes for myth in the same way as like 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.320 the Greek gods were, right, so real quick, like think 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.440 of like pretty much every myth has like some kind 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.920 of solar deity, right, well, that's Superman. They've always got 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.560 an Earth Mother, it's wonder Woman. Wonder Woman was made 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.200 of clay in one of her origin stories. You've got 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:16.080 the death Slash Underworld deity, Batman, right yeah, and then 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.560 there's always like the Trickster, the Joker. So like it's interesting, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.560 like and I'll keep coming back to this, uh, but 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.880 there are like paar ups like you can apply these 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:31.760 models of these archetypes across both you know, whether it's 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:37.120 thousands of years old Greek Roman pantheons or modern day 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.880 like comic books or even like I'm kind of wondering 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.720 with this this example of science, like who's our science Zeus? 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:48.680 Is it Nicola Tesla mm or Ben Franklin. It's not. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.400 I don't think it's been Franklin. So but you know, 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.520 things like that to consider anyways. So that's that's my 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.120 spiel about comics to start off with. And I'll be 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.560 I think bringing it into yeah, an important fact to 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.000 night because much like the gods, what you walk around, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:04.880 say to deaths in an office space and you see 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.920 the action figures on people's death totally in many cases 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.080 they are superheroes. Are superhero characters? What are they but 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.359 the the the avatars for little gods that are the amulets, 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.600 the protective presence. Yeah, and I would you know, i'd 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.640 also point out to that, like in our sort of 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:25.200 breakdown of of how myth, legend and folk tales work out, right, 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.120 like we said myth is considered to be fact, Well, 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.640 nobody actually considers, you know, Superman to be fact, right, 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:34.760 Nobody thinks that he's a real person, or at least 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:40.800 most people don't. Uh. And but the caveat being there 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.760 is that there is such an intense devotion to the 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:51.080 cannon that's within these myth myth mythologies of whatever shared 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.320 universe it is, whether it's Star Wars or Marvel or whatever. Right, 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.680 but there's constant arguments about what is true and what 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:03.000 is not within the canon. Uh. It doesn't necessarily explain 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.800 how the world works to us, but it represents how 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.600 we think it works and how we want it to work. Uh. 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.919 And it represents our ideologies too. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.239 it's Superman. Even though no one is gonna gets into 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.600 the whole idea of hyper real religions that we've covered 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.360 in a previous that absolutely and that this thing that 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:27.600 is certainly fictional still takes on mythological even religious uh 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:30.800 power to the individual two large groups of people. So 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.280 if anyone out there is thinking, oh, you mentioned Superman 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.119 and Adam and even the same breath that is insulting 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.760 or whatever, um, I encourage you not to take it 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:42.439 that way and to listen to the rest of the 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.080 podcast as we explore the power of myth and I 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.120 think I would also say watched the last two Superman 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.800 movies very carefully because there's a lot of christ imagery 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:55.080 in there. There's a lot of him in cross like poses, 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.640 him being back lit by the sun in the same 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.600 way that Jesus is back lit in certain painting. Yeah, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.760 there's a lot of that stuff going Alright. So onto legends, 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.880 as we discussed, you know, might be sacred, might be secular, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:08.880 but you have more of a human character, there's more 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.080 of a grounding and reality, um, though there are still 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.679 mythic elements to it. So in the Greek world, the 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.160 example that came to my mind is Alexander, the great 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:22.120 legendary figure, but definitely a real guy that existed with 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.320 some possible uh fiction, you know, springing off on the edge. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.720 It still allows for big budget movies to be made 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.240 about him, right, And it's and it's more, um, it's 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.840 not in like pure mythic time like it's it's it's 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.359 more relatable to the present. Likewise, in the Christian and 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.440 Christian traditions, you have various martyrs. You can maybe even 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.040 make a h an argument for some of the apostles. 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.400 These are definite historical figures, like st When we talked 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.439 about Stigmata on the Shadow before. Some of those guys 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:55.560 that is definitely an example of Christian legend. Yeah, and 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.200 then elsewhere in the in the world. One example from 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.280 Chinese histor three is the Yellow Emperor who reigned from 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:11.440 two thousand six to UC Definitely a real ruler, but 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.320 there's a lot of additional information he's taken on extremely 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.399 lifendary status. Yeah. My experience, um, living in Southeast Asia 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:24.719 as a kid too, is that Chinese mythology and legend 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:29.040 is popularized in pop culture and movies and television just 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:33.400 as much as like our Alexander the Greats or superheroes 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.399 or Greek gods are Um, are you familiar with the 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.800 Ones upon a Time in China series? Um? Yeah, Well 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:41.440 I've never seen it, but I'm familiar with it. It's 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.439 this like martial arts Woushia series of movies starting Jetly, 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.800 and it's ostensibly about the history of China at the time, 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.280 although there's a lot of argument about whether or not 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.800 it's been influenced by the state or not, and it's 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.960 sort of like a revisionist history. But it reminds me 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.720 of things like this, or like a lot of Jetly movies, 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:02.960 like what's that other one hero? Is that? What it's 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.400 called anyway, the Wuhia movies in general tend to play 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.919 around with these legends. They're like historical figures that they 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.320 make larger than life. And then finally we have folklore 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.720 and uh, certainly like in the Greek tradition they have 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.120 they have their boogeyman, just as anybody else has a boogeyman. 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.840 Believe it's called the baboos. And then you could maybe 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.000 make an argument that a sub's fables count as folk 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.360 floor you know what I mean, nobody, I mean they're 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.160 almost like extreme folklore, like nobody's believing one of these 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.320 stories with these interactions between animals briar rabbit. Yeah, but 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.560 they're but they still they carry weight, and that that's 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.080 um Christian tradition. You have an inherited pagan folk tales. 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.640 You have stuff about witches, there's a lot of Yeah, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:52.320 and that's an interesting example where fable can become something else, 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.600 starting to find the world for us in a way 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.119 that isn't necessarily accurate. Yeah, and then elsewhere in the world, 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:00.640 what you have vampire? Do you have fox, spirits, beast men, 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.840 all in that manner of of supernatural entity that it's 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.640 just a folk tale, you know, it's like it doesn't 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.879 have legendary and mythic status. So let's talk about the 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.560 like how sacred some of this stuff has to be? Right? 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.880 Like again like sticking to Uh, that's that table of 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.960 splitting up myth, legend and folklore. Well, it says right 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.719 here myths are always sacred. So how sacred are they? Well? 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.600 I think it's definitely hard to find examples of older 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:32.560 myths that are that are secular. Like most mythology as 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.240 as we experience, it is going to be sacred. But 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.640 the comic book examples really bring to mind a possible 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.720 example of of of secular mythology, you know, in a 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.680 kind of hyper real fashion. So um. Interesting side note here. 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.680 Often mentioned writer on the show, Grant Morrison. I don't 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.639 know if you're you've ever read his run on The 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.520 Justice League of America happened. Uh. He's given many interviews 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.399 where he said, well, his version of writing The Justice 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.840 League was he saw it as, oh, this is the 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.120 mythological pantheon of our times, and he set it up 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:11.800 so that his roster of who was on the team 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.359 uh lined up are typically with all of the Greek 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.280 and Roman gods uh. And he had like this infamous 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.840 breakdown of how that all worked out, how he chose 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.000 who would be on on the team. Like, you know, 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.320