Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and
Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find
Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage last. You only have to
Speaker 1: be around Sting and Trudy Styler for a minute to
Speaker 1: feel the electricity between them. Their building is a gorgeous
Speaker 1: modern with lots of curves. In fact, Sting says he
Speaker 1: was attracted to it because it's so female, no sharp corners.
Speaker 1: When we first walked into their home, there was Sting
Speaker 1: tucked into the sofa with his head in a book.
Speaker 1: He told us the boss would be here in a moment,
Speaker 1: and right on Q Trudy breezed into the room. She
Speaker 1: invited us to sit at a long wooden table where
Speaker 1: every chair was a different color. I chose the red
Speaker 1: one and Phil chose the green. I could immediately see
Speaker 1: the connection, the little touches between them. They even finished
Speaker 1: each other's sentences. Interestingly, when they first met in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty two, they were both with other people and that's
Speaker 1: where our conversation began. We were neighbors. We were neighbors British,
Speaker 1: We're both British, were from the north of England. We
Speaker 1: found ourselves in London living with other people, but neighbors.
Speaker 1: You know, when you meet somebody and you recognize them.
Speaker 1: I mean that might be wisdom in hindsight, but I
Speaker 1: recognize Trudy as someone that I could spend the rest
Speaker 1: of my life with better. I saw it clearly. I
Speaker 1: just knew who she was instantly. Well, that must have
Speaker 1: been cutter hard if you were neighbors. It was very
Speaker 1: difficult at first because we were not supposed to be together,
Speaker 1: so we fought that off for a couple of years.
Speaker 1: That instinct en, did you too know right away or
Speaker 1: it's like a recognition of somebody that you you feel
Speaker 1: you know, we actually don't really know, but there's something
Speaker 1: that is drawing you too closer to someone. And of
Speaker 1: course it wasn't it. It was the least ideal situation
Speaker 1: that you can imagine. Neither Sting nor truly were prepared
Speaker 1: for the feelings. The situation would unleash that, and then
Speaker 1: when it happens to you, it's like it's a It's
Speaker 1: just like a storm coming at you, a tidal wave.
Speaker 1: And when we began being a couple and moved in
Speaker 1: with each other, you know, it was it was not
Speaker 1: without its challenges, and the media interest was right, and
Speaker 1: the media interest was how did you know trust each other?
Speaker 1: How did that come about? I think there was there
Speaker 1: was a chapter in our history when there was us
Speaker 1: against the world. You know, we were in a foxhol
Speaker 1: and you basically have to trust that person because you're
Speaker 1: surrounded by danger. So I think that was very formative.
Speaker 1: And I was a mess and she protected me. When
Speaker 1: when I hear questions about you know, oh you madly
Speaker 1: in love and passionate and all of that, all of
Speaker 1: that is, yes, it's true. But I think that friendship too,
Speaker 1: you know, needs to be part of a discussion about
Speaker 1: the longevity of a marriage or a relationship. Otherwise, within
Speaker 1: these circumstances that us coming together, we couldn't have lasted.
Speaker 1: And you are brought up the thing about the passion.
Speaker 1: Of course, all over every word we read about the
Speaker 1: tantra sex, is that what it's called. We had a
Speaker 1: viewed President Carter and his wife and I and they
Speaker 1: talked about reading the Bible every night, and I said,
Speaker 1: won't have you more interesting if Sting and Trudy Ray
Speaker 1: read the Bible every night and President Carter his wife
Speaker 1: and wild sex. That would make a better book. How
Speaker 1: do you know they don't, Well, we don't have this
Speaker 1: kind of sex all the time. I mean, we have
Speaker 1: a pretty intense sexual charge between us still, But as
Speaker 1: Trudy said, it's that's kind of ephemeral. What's important is
Speaker 1: that I really like this woman and she really likes
Speaker 1: me despite knowing me. And that's so important. I mean,
Speaker 1: the sexual thinking cool off. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: supercharged the whole time. But the affection for another person
Speaker 1: when she walks into the room, she likes my room up,
Speaker 1: And it's got nothing to do with sex. Actually, it's
Speaker 1: all to do with liking the way that person presents
Speaker 1: herself in the world, liking the decisions she makes, the
Speaker 1: comments she makes, the observations she makes, and respecting them
Speaker 1: and really enjoying her company. I enjoy her company. What
Speaker 1: do we do like a good hotel room? Though? Right,
Speaker 1: how don't you keep us sexy life going? With kids
Speaker 1: in the house, I wouldn't be catching up with staying on,
Speaker 1: you know, on various tours. This is a man who's
Speaker 1: you know, I'm married to a gypsy who you know,
Speaker 1: he's his life has been tenerant. I like that word.
Speaker 1: Perpatetic tell us the basis of the tantra sex. I
Speaker 1: think it's called tantric sex. Okay, we've we've studied yoga
Speaker 1: for over thirty years now. Yoga comes from the same
Speaker 1: route as the word yoga. And what yoga does yokes
Speaker 1: your movement in the world with your consciousness of it.
Speaker 1: So you can be sitting down and doing yoga, can
Speaker 1: be standing up and doing yoga. You can eat and
Speaker 1: do yoga. You're connecting it to something greater than yourself,
Speaker 1: to a spiritual life. You can have sex and do yoga.
Speaker 1: You know, sex is a sacred act. You can make children.
Speaker 1: You know this, You make children that way. So it's
Speaker 1: it's not just a stretch for me, because this is
Speaker 1: a sacrament that we share too to celebrate existing, being alive,
Speaker 1: being together. And it's got nothing to do with how
Speaker 1: long you make love for it. That's that's just silly talk.
Speaker 1: It's actually about being conscious about what you're doing. You know.
Speaker 1: This is the tabloid version, is that we have sex
Speaker 1: for you know, five or six hours. And what Sting
Speaker 1: is saying is it's about really like being connected to
Speaker 1: that person to take time, you know, and I don't
Speaker 1: know what the time could be, but it's during that
Speaker 1: time that you're together. It's you're together, very connected to
Speaker 1: each other, you know, kissing for a long time, like
Speaker 1: preparing a meal together, eating together. Just like that, you
Speaker 1: feel that you're at one with that with with your love. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've never been. Yeah, occasionally, but that's a wonderful explanation
Speaker 1: of it. Well, you know, I say to Staying, like,
Speaker 1: I love you in the in between moments of life.
Speaker 1: The other day, we've had some some sort of upsetting
Speaker 1: news about a friend who's got a health crisis, and
Speaker 1: and I could see how sad you looked, and we
Speaker 1: were just right right here, and I took your face
Speaker 1: in my hands and looked in your eyes and I
Speaker 1: just held you, and I could see that you actually,
Speaker 1: amidst the sadness that you felt, fear, and I acknowledge
Speaker 1: that with you know that we've had so many years
Speaker 1: together that are now behind us, and so we also
Speaker 1: become aware when we get to the age that we
Speaker 1: are that it is going to end. But for me,
Speaker 1: in that moment, the in between moment of holding stings
Speaker 1: face in my hands and looking in his eyes, it's like, please,
Speaker 1: let us be well and have these moments forever kind
Speaker 1: of about in a personal conflict. Certainly, you know this
Speaker 1: is not a Disney movie. There's one of you power,
Speaker 1: there's one of you shut up. We don't actually fight
Speaker 1: very much. No. I tried fighting with thing because I
Speaker 1: used to be a very volatile person and he's taught
Speaker 1: me to be a less volatile person. And I'll tell
Speaker 1: you why. Because he does not deal with people yelling
Speaker 1: very well at him, and he has a very simple
Speaker 1: way to it's probably in your psyche very complex. But
Speaker 1: when I thirty something years ago, did my trudy yelling
Speaker 1: at you for I don't know whatever was upsetting me.
Speaker 1: You just the veil just comes down and you just
Speaker 1: like look at me. And I remember I'd started to
Speaker 1: yell and I'd said I can't, we can't, we can
Speaker 1: never yell in front of our children. I really said,
Speaker 1: out a rule. And he was not a yell or anyway.
Speaker 1: So I said come outside. And we were living at
Speaker 1: Lake House, and we went up to for a little
Speaker 1: walk and I was like shouting and yelling and then
Speaker 1: you climbed over a fence and there was a field
Speaker 1: of sheeps there and I carried on with my leg
Speaker 1: and you're this and you've absolutely always you bluddy this
Speaker 1: and you and I looked around and these sheep were
Speaker 1: all going and then I looked at your face and
Speaker 1: you're going like So I was thinking, voice of my energy,
Speaker 1: we'll have more. After a quick break, we're back to
Speaker 1: our interview with Sting and Trudy Styler. When we left off,
Speaker 1: they were recounting an argument they had. Trudy was shouting
Speaker 1: in a field of sheep, while Sting calmly looked on
Speaker 1: in silence. So I thought, I better, like switch out
Speaker 1: my strategy of trying to resolve conflict. How can we
Speaker 1: do this best? Accuse? Yeah, I mean when you get mad,
Speaker 1: it's hard to say, okay, let's have a nice talk,
Speaker 1: or I don't accuse you of anything, and you don't
Speaker 1: accuse me of anything. I mean, my family were very voluted.
Speaker 1: My parents were always fighting, So I never wanted that
Speaker 1: in my life. That was just toxic for me. So
Speaker 1: you were instructed to behave in an apode. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think I was educated by watching my parents, who were
Speaker 1: very young. My mother was a teen much yeah, my
Speaker 1: father was twenty or something. I saw how they reacted
Speaker 1: with each other in front of us. And that's the
Speaker 1: last thing I wanted, I think, And I don't lose
Speaker 1: my temper now, actually don't. How about your parents, I
Speaker 1: think my dad was just a very shut down person,
Speaker 1: spoke monosyllabically, literally staying. When he met Harry would say,
Speaker 1: you know, my father would go you're up. Then as
Speaker 1: soon would say, yes, Harry, I'm up, and then someone
Speaker 1: would leave the room and say you're off. Then yes, Harry,
Speaker 1: we're off. Now. He had this thing about never speak
Speaker 1: until you're spoken to, and that led for quite a
Speaker 1: lonely life, and a very lonely life for my mom,
Speaker 1: who was very vivacious and very outgoing and very kind
Speaker 1: of like assertive, and I always felt that she envied
Speaker 1: wives with more gregarious husbands. I noticed Sting touches you
Speaker 1: a lot, as he might be he might be queuing
Speaker 1: me to shut up. It's a sign of affection. I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, when he touches me like that,
Speaker 1: I consider that, you know, for somebody who's you know
Speaker 1: in my sixth is that when my husband says I
Speaker 1: look beautiful, and or he admires the dress I'm wearing,
Speaker 1: I start to walk on air. Again like I did
Speaker 1: when I was thirty. However, if I don't like what's wearing,
Speaker 1: say it. I know so does my husband and say, look,
Speaker 1: if you want to believe me when I don't like it,
Speaker 1: then it's the same when I want to say I
Speaker 1: like it, I'm telling the truth. So you make a choice.
Speaker 1: We can trust that it still hurts your feeling. Sometimes
Speaker 1: he tells me on the way down in the elevator,
Speaker 1: I got, oh god, it's too late because I make
Speaker 1: the stupid mistake of saying do you like this? And
Speaker 1: he'll say, you have better things than that. Do you
Speaker 1: feel that if you drift away from each other because
Speaker 1: you've been traveling a lot, or you have your own
Speaker 1: issues while you're making a movie and you're really busy
Speaker 1: and you've got a thousand fires, just let out and
Speaker 1: you as well. When that happens, how do you reset?
Speaker 1: I think you have to raise a flag and say, look,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling we need to sit just sit down and
Speaker 1: not even talk to sit down because I lives are
Speaker 1: so busy and I sometimes I don't like the cell phone.
Speaker 1: She's on the cell phone work. I don't like it
Speaker 1: to feel that's invasive. I mean I will make a
Speaker 1: call on mine and then I'll turn it off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is my habit. That's a problem for me because
Speaker 1: when stings on the road, he makes the call to
Speaker 1: me every day, and if I miss it and I
Speaker 1: try to call him back, his phone is off. So
Speaker 1: it's like I can speak to you on your terms,
Speaker 1: but you can call me anytime you want. Actually, it's
Speaker 1: that's not true. You're not easy to get either. The
Speaker 1: big accommodation is absolutely no phones. When we eat, it's
Speaker 1: a ritual, it's a ritual. And then when you sit
Speaker 1: down that they're coming together over food and wine. It's
Speaker 1: a sacrament. It's like we're all together now. But I
Speaker 1: can see that My life as a producer involves this
Speaker 1: constant communication and putting out fires of you know, all
Speaker 1: the things that go wrong on sets with films and
Speaker 1: television stuff, and it's it's it's it's a constant because
Speaker 1: as a producer, you're like mom, It's like mom, something
Speaker 1: else has gone wrong, and right, can you say what
Speaker 1: you think is the strength of your marriage and what
Speaker 1: is the weakness of your marriage that you have to
Speaker 1: work on. I mean, it's not something that is just
Speaker 1: kind of settled like a treaty, well, constantly negotiating and
Speaker 1: constantly navigating each other. But a rock star to fall
Speaker 1: in love with a rock star, big mistake is a
Speaker 1: very dangerous thing to happen, isn't it. Where are you
Speaker 1: going with this? I'm a romantic wie. It's a stereotype. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's only it's only partially true. How do you know though?
Speaker 1: It's how do you know? You know? It used to
Speaker 1: be really difficult with just feeling so jealous all the time.
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, it was that, And I am a
Speaker 1: very jealous person. So I've had to you're literally saying, so, yeah,
Speaker 1: so I've had to sort of like look at what
Speaker 1: where does my jealousy come from? And growing up, you know,
Speaker 1: as one of three girls, being jealous about getting attention
Speaker 1: was like something that we had in our household. Where
Speaker 1: were you in the order? Middle? Yeah? Did you do
Speaker 1: that with? So not to begin with, because I was
Speaker 1: sort of like trying to, you know, really swallow my
Speaker 1: pride about well I'm pretty too and I'm the girlfriend
Speaker 1: now and to assert myself as getting through this sort
Speaker 1: of like rage of young women saying to me like,
Speaker 1: do you know how lucky you are, and I sort
Speaker 1: of like he's a fucking lucky one, which I think
Speaker 1: I did say a few times you must and now
Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of like it goes away. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like lessons. I felt that when I first
Speaker 1: met Phil every woman in America wanted to be married
Speaker 1: to him. In fact, when we got married, I got
Speaker 1: letters saying how could you marry him? You know, a
Speaker 1: woman wrote me and said, every morning at nine o'clock,
Speaker 1: when my husband and children leave the house, I put
Speaker 1: on my lipstick and turn on Phil show. I mean,
Speaker 1: they actually had a fantasy about him. So it certainly
Speaker 1: isn't the same as as with a rock star because
Speaker 1: that's so sexual. And so I don't know. So did
Speaker 1: you tell Stane, did you say, look, I'm having trouble
Speaker 1: with this or don't. Well, he walks very fast, and
Speaker 1: I used to like wear enormous high heels and Azadina
Speaker 1: liar dresses and like be really kind of like dressed
Speaker 1: to the nines when we were in public, and you know,
Speaker 1: take a lot of effort to look so great and
Speaker 1: sting to navigate hordes of people. He would be walking
Speaker 1: like in front of me to get away from all
Speaker 1: the crowds, thinking that I would be all right, and
Speaker 1: I would sort of feel like, I look like six
Speaker 1: inch heels, I can't keep up with you, And I
Speaker 1: wouldn't keep up with you even if I was wearing sneakers,
Speaker 1: because I saw that he was navigating that public persona
Speaker 1: thing really bothered me. But then you know, we started
Speaker 1: to We talked about, you know, jealousy issues and me
Speaker 1: coming to terms with his public persona and his private
Speaker 1: persona really nothing to do with each other. No, I've
Speaker 1: been there too, Yeah, and I think it's jealousy is
Speaker 1: in everybody's heart, everybody you get territorial. This is my guy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: don't touch him. And I know the girls that I
Speaker 1: know the women, I know all of the ones. As
Speaker 1: soon as I come into a room, I go like
Speaker 1: I have I can kind of pick him out. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: this one, I like that one. Be those I know
Speaker 1: his taste in. Yeah, he's such a gentleman and very
Speaker 1: enigmatic with the way that he does it. But of
Speaker 1: course I know him so well. I know his body
Speaker 1: language so well. I know every those eyes who have
Speaker 1: they you know, they seemingly you know when I'm fancying
Speaker 1: somebody on the on the cinema screen TV. I lean
Speaker 1: over and I say, the third one on the right. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I love that you walk into a room and can
Speaker 1: spot the ones. Yeah, that's so fascinating to me. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: can you do that too? Yeah, he knows my taste
Speaker 1: as well. Usually older men, I'm the youngest man. It's
Speaker 1: true you lived together for how long before you ten years?
Speaker 1: You lived together for ten years. We had three children
Speaker 1: in the ten years that we lived together, So I
Speaker 1: assume you you recommend that living together. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: don't really. I think that I had no idea when
Speaker 1: we got married. First of all, we got married because
Speaker 1: our kids had started to be a bit bullied at
Speaker 1: school because we moved from urban splendor London. You know,
Speaker 1: everybody living together and not particularly being married, and that
Speaker 1: was okay, But moving into the countryside in England is
Speaker 1: a very different thing, and not being married and having
Speaker 1: three kids going to school, it became an issue for
Speaker 1: the kids. Why didn't you marry? I didn't re marry.
Speaker 1: I think it was because I'm going so well for
Speaker 1: I think that what I remember you saying is the
Speaker 1: biggest failure that you ever felt, was that you failed
Speaker 1: in a marriage, you failed your marriage, and that you
Speaker 1: never wanted to fail again, and that I respected that.
Speaker 1: So I think I was okay with it for a
Speaker 1: few years. And then one of the kids came back
Speaker 1: from school and said, somebody said I'm a bastard. Is
Speaker 1: it true? I said, no, that's your dad. When you
Speaker 1: got married, after living together and had these babies and all,
Speaker 1: once you got married, did that change anything? Didn't make
Speaker 1: it different now that you had signed this covenant. It
Speaker 1: actually people gave truly much more respect and deference than
Speaker 1: they did before. And then we were both I was
Speaker 1: proud to say, this is my wife. Yeah. I remember
Speaker 1: the first invitation that came to us after we were married.
Speaker 1: It had always been even in the ten years that
Speaker 1: we were together, these you know things that you're invited
Speaker 1: to Sting and guest. It would really smash my feelings,
Speaker 1: you know, and I would often decline or have somebody
Speaker 1: call and say that Sting and Trudy would be delighted
Speaker 1: to accept and whatever. But when I remember the first
Speaker 1: invitation that came mister and missus Sumner, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: and then you know, I didn't have to try so
Speaker 1: bloody hard after that. So, what do you think makes
Speaker 1: a marriage last? Luck? I don't discount that word that
Speaker 1: it's when you say luck, you mean it's it's a
Speaker 1: four thing. Yeah, but I think that we when we
Speaker 1: look at someone's chemistry with each other and there's an
Speaker 1: instant like I know I like you. In our case,
Speaker 1: we laughed at the same things, and we noticed that
Speaker 1: we laughed at the same things. We were similar ages,
Speaker 1: we're from similar backgrounds, our terms of reference, nostalgias are
Speaker 1: the same. You know, our brand of humor is the same.
Speaker 1: And I remember there was a there's a wonderful quote
Speaker 1: from Jean Paul Sartre's wife. She said, why share a
Speaker 1: room when you can share the world? And we do
Speaker 1: share the world, and she was right. It's like I
Speaker 1: feel him almost, you know, in his absences where he is,
Speaker 1: and I sometimes my intuition tells me I don't think
Speaker 1: things very well today, and I'll call and you know,
Speaker 1: I can feel that. You know you're in my orbit.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that? Yeah, you just sort of psychically
Speaker 1: get connected up, especially when we're traveling. Yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 1: I get great excitement when Sting's been away. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll pretty myself up for his return, and my heart
Speaker 1: will beat faster. I know he's coming home. He's coming
Speaker 1: home today, and I'll be as giddy as the young girl.
Speaker 1: You know that's great. So there you have it, the
Speaker 1: unbreakable bond between Sting and Trudy Styler. Until next time.
Speaker 1: I'm Phil down A Hue and I'm Marlowe Thomas. I
Speaker 1: think we've tortured. It's just the most wonderful thing to
Speaker 1: talk to such an inspiring couple as you so much.
Speaker 1: I don't blame you for marrying each other. I would
Speaker 1: have married either one of you any time. You're adorable,
Speaker 1: both of you. Double Data is a production of Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1: The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lily.
Speaker 1: Michael Bahari is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had
Speaker 1: to Be You by Sellwagon, Sympinette Marlo and I are
Speaker 1: executive producers, along with Mia Lobel and Letal Molad from Pushkin.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Jacob Wiseburg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars,
Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostak, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams,
Speaker 1: and Bruce Kluger. If you like our show, please remember
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.