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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three, O eight,

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Speaker 1: Episode two of der DALY'SI Guys Day production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. This is a podcast where we take a

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Speaker 1: deep dive into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: October tenth, twenty twenty three. Mm hm oh, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know it is. It's a lot of cake. It's National Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: National Angel Food Cake Day, which is always felt a

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Speaker 1: bit light of the Cake Variety's National Cake Decorating Day,

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Speaker 1: National Panbag Day, you know, for everybody grinding out there

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Speaker 1: trying to get it on that burkin life like me,

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Speaker 1: World Mental Health Day, National Walk to a Park Day,

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Speaker 1: a character across the whole National Metric Day. It's all

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Speaker 1: about a grind jack, you know what I mean. Set mindset.

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Speaker 1: The grindset mindset is what powered my grandfather to look

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Speaker 1: thirty years older than he did when he was.

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Speaker 2: Forty three, you know what I mean. And that's what

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to do. Like I'm trying to grind so

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Speaker 2: hard people think I'm a time drave.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, well, you know what we're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: that obvious minute. Are you a old like a mountaineer

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Speaker 1: from Turn of the century West Virginia, because you look

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Speaker 1: old as hell. Bro. Anyways, my name is Look at

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Speaker 1: some old pictures of mountaineers back the day because they

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Speaker 1: would just like go up there without oxygen and come

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Speaker 1: down looking so old. It's oh, it's truly the oldest

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Speaker 1: looking like humans I've ever seen. Like they they age

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Speaker 1: like presidents on those mountains. That's a misnomer. They're not

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Speaker 1: the oldest looking humans you've ever seen. They're the They

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Speaker 1: look like the hardest working people. They look like the

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Speaker 1: hardest grinders that I've ever seen, exactly grinding their bodies

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Speaker 1: down to dust. That's right. Well, my name is Jack

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Speaker 1: O'Brien aka in the Jungle, the Mighty Jungle. Oh, Brian

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Speaker 1: sleeps too nice. That is courtesy of reads these the

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Speaker 1: disporge can't be me, can't be talking about me, must

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Speaker 1: be talking about one of my kids, because I don't sleep.

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Speaker 1: I always keep one eye open. And I'm thrilled to

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Speaker 1: be joined as always by my co host, mister Miles Great.

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Speaker 1: It's Miles Gray, AKA. Why why don't we do birthday bye? Cake?

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Speaker 1: Is boring? Something something something?

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Speaker 2: The AKA wasn't finished, but I understand the sentiment from

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Speaker 2: Scouty on discord.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you Why can't we make birthday pie just

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Speaker 1: a normal thing? You know what I mean? Just do

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Speaker 1: for those that do. Shout out to the trailblazers out there, Miles,

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Speaker 1: we're the ones in charge of these decisions. We should

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Speaker 1: just do it. As people in charge of the zeitgeist.

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Speaker 1: We should just make the make the dang change. Dude.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't fucking work three hundred hours a

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Speaker 1: week to not make the wolves, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: And I don't even know there are that many hours in

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Speaker 1: the week, but that's what it feels like. Baby. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for calling me baby. I do love me.

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Speaker 1: You do that, and you I have requested that you

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Speaker 1: do that more often. Miles in our seat, we are

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Speaker 1: thrilled to be joined by a professional futurist with a

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Speaker 1: pH d in the history of science. He's been a

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Speaker 1: visiting scholar at Stanford and Oxford Universities and is the

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Speaker 1: author of four books, including Shorter and Rest. Please welcome

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Speaker 1: to this show, doctor Alex Sujung King pang.

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Speaker 3: Alice, thanks for having me and happy National angel food cake.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah right? Are you a fan of angel food cake.

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Speaker 3: I love angel food cake. Oh and cake decorating actually,

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Speaker 3: so you know two for one?

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Speaker 1: Oh wow? Okay, is that like is that a like

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Speaker 1: a hobby of yours decorating cakes? Or you know you

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Speaker 1: admire the artwork.

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Speaker 3: I admire the artwork though my wife and my daughter

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Speaker 3: are both pretty pretty amazing bakers.

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Speaker 1: So oh okay, okay, okay, Well, we're so glad you

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Speaker 1: joined us here today. Obviously the listeners probably have heard

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Speaker 1: me really talking about my grindset, mindset. How I get

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Speaker 1: to Lambeau is the thesis statement of this show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but as quickly as possible. You know, Tim Ferriss

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Speaker 2: gave me some ideas they aren't working very well.

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Speaker 1: Not I don't know why. Yeah, I wasn't able to

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Speaker 1: outsource enough of my work to enough, but yeah, people

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Speaker 1: who work for five dollars an hour, It didn't work

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 2: But we are curious to pick your mind because yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was the talk of shortened work weeks and if

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Speaker 2: that's better, I don't know. The jury is still out

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Speaker 2: in my mind. We figured it's good to enlist the

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Speaker 2: help of someone who hasn't like their area of expertise

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Speaker 2: is and precisely that to fight the voices that tell

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Speaker 2: me to keep grinding every day and every night.

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Speaker 1: We're mainly going off vibes on this end, and you've

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Speaker 1: actually looked at data whatever that means. So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: dig into it. But before we get to before we

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Speaker 1: get into that, we do like to get to know

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Speaker 1: you a little bit better and ask you what is

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Speaker 1: something from your search history that is revealing about who

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Speaker 1: you are or what you're up to.

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Speaker 3: Well, this morning, I was on Google Translate for a

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Speaker 3: while looking at four day week in other languages. So

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Speaker 3: it's something that I've been interested in for several years,

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Speaker 3: and it's a movement that keeps growing and I have

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Speaker 3: to keep like tracking it now in like Turkish and

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Speaker 3: Hungarian and stuff. It used to be relatively simple. It

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Speaker 3: was like English and maybe one or two other languages,

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Speaker 3: but now it's like just all over the place.

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Speaker 1: How is that spreading? Is it just like kind of

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Speaker 1: word of mouth that different companies are learning about it,

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Speaker 1: or is it coming usually from the workers themselves, or

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Speaker 1: how do you see that kind of happening?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know a lot of it is spreading through

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Speaker 3: sort of word of mouth with like within industries, So

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Speaker 3: you know, you get a couple of people in like

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Speaker 3: HR and recruiting who try it in their organizations, and

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Speaker 3: then then their competitors will do it because those competitors

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Speaker 3: are starting to lose people to sort of the company

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Speaker 3: that did it first. And then you know, it gets

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Speaker 3: written up in the news and some you know, and

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Speaker 3: there's some ambitious politician who thinks, you know, this is

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Speaker 3: how they become you know, governor or senator or something, right,

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Speaker 3: champion in the four day week, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: and it kind of builds from there, and it's fortunately

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Speaker 3: been something that's gotten you know, plenty of press and

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Speaker 3: plenty of attention, and so it's, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 3: it's been really great to see it acquire that kind

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Speaker 3: of momentum and take on a life of its own.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is there is there anything to like you think, like,

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Speaker 2: are there certain cultures where the just like innately, some

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Speaker 2: cultures are gonna be a little bit harder for them

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Speaker 2: to like cross the barrier into the four hour work

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Speaker 2: week just based on sort of like ideas of what

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Speaker 2: productivity or what you know, someone's worth is based on

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Speaker 2: work or is it or is there also a thing

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Speaker 2: where too, like humanity is just kind of naturally maybe

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Speaker 2: progressing towards this or it's like I mean culture or not.

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Speaker 1: It's like this is this feels better, this works better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think if you've got twenty four

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Speaker 3: hours in a day, you're gonna you're gonna value this.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, you know, I have seen this in

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Speaker 3: like two of the hotspots for the four day week,

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Speaker 3: or Japan and Korea, which are both countries whose languages

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Speaker 3: have their own words for working yourself to death. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so you know, it's not just like Sweden and Denmark

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Speaker 3: in places with really good work life balance. You actually

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Speaker 3: see it most in places that have really serious issues

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Speaker 3: with like stress over work, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it stood out that yet, hit yeah, we're not

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Speaker 1: We're we're not on board yet.

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Speaker 2: But you said, you said twenty four hours in a day,

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Speaker 2: My man, you gotta find some more hours.

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Speaker 1: I got thirty in a day over here. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's another story. It does cut against the standard narrative

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Speaker 1: that we see in the mainstream media. I feel like

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Speaker 1: that that's one of the things that made to jump

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Speaker 1: out to me, is like this wouldn't be getting coverage

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Speaker 1: unless it actually worked because so much of the mainstream

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Speaker 1: like narrative is focused on emphasizing the impact of these

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Speaker 1: like billionaires and how they worked so hard and did

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Speaker 1: it all by themselves and bootstrapped their way up, and

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Speaker 1: so to have this thing that keeps getting media attention

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Speaker 1: that feels like really counter to the logic that the

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Speaker 1: entire that is, like the software that the entire media

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Speaker 1: that we consume runs on. Like that, That's one of

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Speaker 1: the things that made me be like, huh, I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's must be something here, because if it wasn't true,

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Speaker 1: like the media wouldn't allow it, you know, yeah, like

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Speaker 1: weapons of mass destruction. We were saying that to Okay,

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Speaker 1: why would they talk about that the yellow cake? That's right,

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Speaker 1: it's got to be true. What is something you think

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Speaker 1: is overrated?

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Speaker 3: So what do I think is overrated? You know, I

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Speaker 3: think over work is actually overrated. That you know, there

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Speaker 3: is there is a centuries worth of research that tells

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Speaker 3: us that that is a counterproductive both for people and

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Speaker 3: for actually for for organizations, and that you know, humans

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Speaker 3: are able to sustain brief periods of you know, bursts

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Speaker 3: of work for short periods of time, right, you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of running away from the tiger or harvesting crops

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Speaker 3: in the fall. But the idea that you do this

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Speaker 3: sort of as a way of life turns out to

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Speaker 3: sort of lead to bad outcomes in all kinds of industries.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we spent industrial like engineers or of

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Speaker 3: sociologists started seeing this as early as like nineteen oh five,

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Speaker 3: nineteen oh eight in the optics industry, right, high performing industries,

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Speaker 3: and like explosive and munitions industries during World War One.

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Speaker 3: And it's just taken us a really long time to

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Speaker 3: take that data seriously, but I think we're finally at

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Speaker 3: a point where it is it is it is getting

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Speaker 3: a sympathetic hearing.

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Speaker 1: So what did they find? What did those industries see?

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Speaker 1: The people like kept that just accidents were happening when

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Speaker 1: they were overworking people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you get more accidents, which in a munitions

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Speaker 3: factory when you're dealing with explosives is not a good thing.

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Speaker 3: But you know, more generally, you get sort of higher

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Speaker 3: rates of mistakes. You see people overlooking small things that

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Speaker 3: maybe signal big problems down the line. So you know,

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Speaker 3: out of a few years ago, Samsung had an issue

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Speaker 3: with one of its cell phones with the batteries exploding,

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Speaker 3: and this was like only you know, this is like

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Speaker 3: one in a million odds of it happening. But when

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Speaker 3: you sell several hundred million of these things, you got

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Speaker 3: a class action suit. And one of the things they

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Speaker 3: found was that the engineers who are working on this

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Speaker 3: were working like eighty hour weeks literally sleeping, you know,

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Speaker 3: sleeping under their desks. And they had some data suggested

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Speaker 3: that this was potentially a problem, but they were so

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Speaker 3: rushed and basically so exhausted that nobody followed up on it.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, I think it's and you know, today,

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Speaker 3: when you've got incredibly complicated technologies, amazingly sophisticated products, that

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Speaker 3: kind of you know, that kind of really tiny problem

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Speaker 3: actually can have gigantic consequences now and then you know,

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Speaker 3: people also are more likely to get sick to just

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Speaker 3: up and quit. They're also more likely to cut corners

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Speaker 3: and cheat when ort of they're overworked and tired. So

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Speaker 3: you know, not a good look, like if you're you know,

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Speaker 3: a sort of investment bank or a law firm or something.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, for all of these reasons, it

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Speaker 3: turns out it's not good for people, and it's not

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Speaker 3: good for companies.

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Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is they work hard or work smart,

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Speaker 1: not hard, and that you're basically a hater on the grindset.

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Speaker 1: You know, definition of what you just said. Is it

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Speaker 1: okay if we just come out and say that you

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Speaker 1: might be a hater against the you know.

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Speaker 3: I will, I will. I will also add the odds

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Speaker 3: of crashing your lambo go up a lot when you're

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Speaker 3: sleep deprived, so you know, until until they come out

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Speaker 3: with a self driving version, then you know, this may

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Speaker 3: be something to consider.

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Speaker 1: I mean, with all, dude, I'll just put it. I'll

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Speaker 1: just throw another three hundred hours on and give me

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Speaker 1: another mine off. That's the thing. That's how easy it is,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I think that's too it's

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Speaker 1: too scarce. There aren't enough lambos out there. There are

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Speaker 1: enough lambos out there. It's not enough hours in the day.

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Speaker 1: We're all search of you. I mean, should we just,

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Speaker 1: like with all the slander against grind said, should we

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Speaker 1: just run through our schedule real quick and see if yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe yeah. I mean I can't find anything wrong with yeah,

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Speaker 1: like if he spots any problems? So all right, I

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Speaker 1: mean I don't know about you, Miles. I wake up

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Speaker 1: at two a m. Before Mark Wahlberg, before the Rock. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I fuel my workout by thinking about all my enemies

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Speaker 1: still sleeping in their beds, right, and laugh to myself

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Speaker 1: so loud that it wakes people that I share a

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Speaker 1: house with, because they're you know, it's just funny to me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're they're sleeping. Well the dust, yeah, exactly, they're sleeping

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Speaker 1: and inhaling a bunch of dust is what's happening to them.

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Speaker 1: How about you? When do you? When do you wake up?

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Speaker 1: I wake up, you know, and to be honest, you

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Speaker 1: said you wake up at two am? Yeah? Oh man.

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Speaker 1: And this this is every day. This is humiliating for

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Speaker 1: me because I always we always live comparatively, as we

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Speaker 1: both realized that's the healthiest way to live is to

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Speaker 1: compare your situation to an arriving each other exactly, drive

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Speaker 1: each other towards total dissatisfaction with our lives. And so

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Speaker 1: I wake up at three forty five. Actually wow, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so don't judge. I mean, but then that workout, work

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Speaker 1: out till five, U shower, drink two pots of coffee. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Then five point thirty I begin working reading the news, writing.

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Speaker 1: Then at ten to three back to work doing the

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Speaker 1: real work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like recording the show, taking meetings, doing development stuff.

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Speaker 1: Things like that. You're working, but then the next thing

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Speaker 1: on your schedule is back to work.

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Speaker 2: Yep, exactly, well, the real work obviously. Then three pm,

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Speaker 2: I obviously take a second to be a parent. I

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Speaker 2: look at my infant son on the monitor for about

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Speaker 2: fifteen twenty seconds. Then I go back to work again.

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Speaker 2: Then five point thirty, have a light breakfast. Six to

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Speaker 2: nine pm look through used Lambeaux listings to see what's

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Speaker 2: out there. Nine pm, I eat a lunch of whatever

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Speaker 2: my wife and son have left over from their quote

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Speaker 2: unquote dinner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah there do you also do you also go in

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Speaker 1: after they leave, because I've noticed that sometimes that creates friction,

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Speaker 1: Like when I go in and they're still there, It

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Speaker 1: creates friction, and it like slows me down a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I look through the doorway and I giggle to myself

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Speaker 1: and I go so that's why y'all are unemployed?

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Speaker 2: And I get back to it. Then again nine to

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Speaker 2: fifteen to twelve am leisure time. I do take some

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Speaker 2: time up for myself. That's where I watch American Psycho

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Speaker 2: on VHS. But I'm right now, I'm trying to learn

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Speaker 2: every single line word for word. That's what I do

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Speaker 2: my leisure time. Then twelve am time for dinner, where

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Speaker 2: I just go for a run in the park where

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Speaker 2: I'm usually looking for sleeping squirrels to eat. And then

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Speaker 2: at two am I go to bed do it all

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Speaker 2: over again. I'm sorry, and I cut you off. So

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Speaker 2: you're up at two, up at two.

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Speaker 1: So by the time you wake up, Unfortunately, my man,

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Speaker 1: I am already out the door on my way to

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Speaker 1: the hospital because I'm generally like unable to see very

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Speaker 1: well when I wake up that early because my eyes

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Speaker 1: are like half closed, and so I totally will often

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Speaker 1: run into things and at you know, three forty five

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Speaker 1: of them, just so tired, I can't remember if I've

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Speaker 1: like done that already that day, or if it was

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Speaker 1: the day before or like a month ago. So I'd

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Speaker 1: just like to check in with urgent Care just to

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Speaker 1: be like, everything, look okay here, do I have any

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Speaker 1: major holes in my body? Yeah? But other than that,

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Speaker 1: it's like a lot of the same stuff, you know.

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Speaker 1: Five point fifteen, I add in a little you know,

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Speaker 1: give my reflection in the mirror, that get to work

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Speaker 1: fat boy speech. But then I'm just grinding, straight, grinding,

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Speaker 1: you know. Eight thirty I will usually come to in

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Speaker 1: a parking garage or grocery store loading bay somewhere within

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Speaker 1: a twelve mile radius of my office. I'm working on

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Speaker 1: my speed so I can get them radius up. But

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Speaker 1: then yeah, just kind of use context clues to figure

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Speaker 1: out how I got there and why I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: the person I'm talking to. Yeah, and then yeah, midnight,

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Speaker 1: Saga night to each individual picture of Lambeau and influencer

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Speaker 1: on my vision board. One thirty five am, fall asleep,

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Speaker 1: standing up like a horse. Does that okay? Does that

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Speaker 1: sound like what are we thinking there? Do you think

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Speaker 1: that is over work? Would you call that work? That's

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Speaker 1: a good work life balance, know, Alex, You know.

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Speaker 3: I got to say, first of all, I really admire

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Speaker 3: sort of the like combination of sort of Genghis Khan,

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk and Joker that you've managed to sort of

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Speaker 3: achieve here.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, you you listen to the show, right,

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Speaker 1: because we always start off that's our triune God, Musk

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Speaker 1: and the Joker, the experience.

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Speaker 3: I might have a couple ideas, you know, around the

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Speaker 3: edges about maybe expanding the amount of sleep that sort

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Speaker 3: of and there's some good science behind why get it

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Speaker 3: more than let's say, twenty or thirty minutes of sleep

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Speaker 3: per day is a good thing, right.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the sort of the other the other

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Speaker 3: thing I might you know, recommend, is that there's there

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Speaker 3: might be a little bit more room for sort of

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Speaker 3: some breaks, some non Lambeau and influencer related activity. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 3: So you know, I will say, looking back at my book,

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Speaker 3: I studied a lot of historical figures who really were

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Speaker 3: around before you know, before the founding of the Lamborghini company.

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Speaker 3: So we can't say that today, you know, would Charles Darwin,

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Speaker 3: you know, not be going for a Lambeau.

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Speaker 1: Who knows? Because so here's the thing. I don't get

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Speaker 1: the lambro Lambeau for the breaks. I get it for

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Speaker 1: the gas, all gas, no breaks. Is how I live

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Speaker 1: my life like a Lambeau. So that's the thing that

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Speaker 1: I feel like Darwin kind of wouldn't have been able

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Speaker 1: to wrap his mind around. Necessarily, Survival of the grindest

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Speaker 1: is what he would have you know, I came up

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Speaker 1: with that concept. But that's neither here nor there. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for bearing with us and for

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Speaker 1: looking at our schedules with us. What is something that

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Speaker 1: you think is underrated?

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Speaker 3: Let's pick up on where we were just a second ago,

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Speaker 3: and I think, you know, actually sleep is underrated despite

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Speaker 3: in a sort of the you know, the like internet,

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Speaker 3: mattress companies and things that are sort of you know

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Speaker 3: that are sponsoring lots of podcasts, maybe like yours. I

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Speaker 3: don't know, but there's.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it's time to talk with sponsored does in a while.

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Speaker 3: You know Peter Rettia who wrote who wrote a sort

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Speaker 3: of terrific book that's actually sort of behind me about

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Speaker 3: called Unaging, which is all about how sort of the

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Speaker 3: you know, all the all the amazing things you can

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Speaker 3: do in order or of to have a great long life,

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Speaker 3: talks about sleep is one of like the great secret

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Speaker 3: weapons in or you know, sort of in our arsenal,

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Speaker 3: and that it does, you know, it does amazing stuff

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Speaker 3: for brains, for bodies. It even does really good stuff

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Speaker 3: you know, for us create and helps us you know

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Speaker 3: that sort of helps us have better ideas and have better,

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Speaker 3: more sustainable lives. So and the problem is we underestimate,

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Speaker 3: you know, we underestimate sleep at our peril, but everybody

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Speaker 3: does it right. Nobody ever says I'll work when I'm dead,

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Speaker 3: but you know, sort of we do say all sleep

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Speaker 3: when I'm dead, which is you know which sort of

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Speaker 3: which I think, you know, just illustrates the way that

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Speaker 3: we value the one, you know, the one over the other.

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Speaker 1: So that I mean, and I never sleep because sleep

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Speaker 1: is a cousin of cousin of death. Because we're in

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Speaker 1: a New York state of mind. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that you talk it. You mentioned like the word of obliquity,

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Speaker 1: which I had not really heard, but like that kind

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Speaker 1: of it's something. It's an idea that I've been kind

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Speaker 1: of dancing around and like talking about this show and

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Speaker 1: talking about like people coming to like having scientific breakthroughs

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Speaker 1: in their dreams or you know, that they're just being

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Speaker 1: these unconscious forces in our lives that kind of break

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Speaker 1: through and like guide us in a direction that we

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Speaker 1: might not be even consciously aware of. Just this idea

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Speaker 1: that there's so much work happening at an unconscious level,

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Speaker 1: and that's what you're it seems like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the value of rest and you know, not being on

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Speaker 1: task all the time. To quote my other philosophical hero,

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Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos. You know, some off task time, yeah, can

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Speaker 1: actually make you much better at solving problems, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And like you, there's this anecdote that I'd never heard before,

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Speaker 1: but about like how studies of the brain have found

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Speaker 1: that the brain is using up as much like when

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Speaker 1: I'm staring off into space, you know, sitting at my

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Speaker 1: desk and just like I'm like, all right, my brain

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Speaker 1: needs a rest. I'm looking off into space in the

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Speaker 1: middle distance with my mouth open like that. That is

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Speaker 1: that that time, my brain is using just as much

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Speaker 1: oxygen as it does when I'm working on a problem, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's like, but but my brain prefers or like

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Speaker 1: craves that rest. You talking about that and like why

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Speaker 1: why you think it craves up?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, So you know, first off, absolutely correct that

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Speaker 3: sort of our brains when we are apparently just spacing out,

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Speaker 3: are actually not slowing down or shutting off. They're just

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Speaker 3: as active as they are when we are trying to

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Speaker 3: do our taxes or you know, or sort of talk

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Speaker 3: our kids out of.

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Speaker 1: You know, sort of we're because there's some there's some

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Speaker 1: bad habits he's talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you're giving that's Lambeau money you're giving away out.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it turns out, you know, even when

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Speaker 3: we're when we're like thinking of nothing at all or

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Speaker 3: you know, sort of day dreaming, that there's a lot

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Speaker 3: going on, you know, under the hood, as it were.

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Speaker 3: And what scientists have found is that there are basically

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Speaker 3: parts of our brain that switch on when we are

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Speaker 3: when we're mind wandering, as they sort of as they

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Speaker 3: call it, and these are parts that are associated with

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Speaker 3: creative thinking, with thinking about the future, or it's often

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Speaker 3: sort of the more visual parts of our brains. And

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Speaker 3: that default mode network, as scientists sort of call it,

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Speaker 3: does two things. Number One, it switches on really really quickly,

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Speaker 3: like in the time it takes us to blink your eyes,

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Speaker 3: the default mode can be seen firing up. And the

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Speaker 3: second thing is the default mode is really good at

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Speaker 3: attacking problems that you've been working on but haven't solved yet.

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Speaker 3: So when you're trying to remember you know, the name

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Speaker 3: of the actor who is in the movie and that

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Speaker 3: other thing, and sort of it doesn't come to mod

432
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 3: you know, you can't remember it, and then five minutes

433
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: later sort of you're doing something else, and all of

434
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 3: a sudden, the name pops into your head. Right, it's

435
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 3: Hugh Jackman or yeah.

436
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: And that's.

437
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: Okay. But that's the default mode working on something even

438
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 3: while your attention has moved elsewhere. And one of the

439
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 3: things I think that really creative people are good at

440
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 3: is recognizing just how powerful the default mode can be,

441
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 3: especially if you give it some time, some regular time

442
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: sort of in your day to do its thing. And

443
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 3: so you know, not only do you have time for

444
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 3: rest and recovery, but you get this kind of extra

445
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 3: time when sort of your creative subconscious is able to

446
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: take on to take on problems that you haven't been

447
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 3: able to solve just by grinding away at them and find,

448
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 3: you know, hacks and shortcuts and so forth, and find

449
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 3: solutions that you know that you haven't been able to

450
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 3: find through sort of conscious effort, but are down there

451
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: in your brain somewhere, and it can kind of bring

452
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: into the surface for you.

453
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, now we have to take a break. But before

454
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: we do, just one thing I picked up from what

455
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: you were just saying is that it sounds like you're

456
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: having trouble remembering Hugh Jackman's name, and a helpful little

457
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: trick is think huge jacked man and then picture him

458
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: from Wolverine and it like does it's like a little

459
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: mind palace thing. But there's also interesting, other interesting stuff

460
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: in there. Let's take a quick break and we'll come

461
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: back because I want to hear you talk specifically, you know,

462
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: about your background as a historian of science and kind

463
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: of how that led you to where you are today.

464
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: So we'll be right back and we're back. And yeah,

465
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: so you started as a historian of science, and I've

466
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: heard you talk about like what you learned from Darwin,

467
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: and you know, Ernst Macht talked about kind of these

468
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: ideas of you know, letting the subconscious take its turn. Look,

469
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: can you just talk about like just looking at the

470
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: historical record around these great thinkers and what they what

471
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: they knew.

472
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 3: Right, So, you know, part of the reason that I

473
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: talk about these these folks un rest is number one,

474
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: their lives are really really well documented.

475
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: Right.

476
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: There were fourteen thousand letters in of the Darwin archive

477
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: at Cambridge University, so we actually know an awful lot

478
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 3: about their daily lives. We also have enough perspectives so

479
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: that we can, you know, say, with a pretty high

480
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: degree of confidence Charles darn Darwin was an important person

481
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: who's you know, who made an enduring contribution to or

482
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: to our understanding of the natural world. And you know, finally,

483
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: in contrast to today's great so many of today's great achievers,

484
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 3: they don't you know, we can see them without the

485
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: filter of like pr handlers and sort of you know,

486
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: people who are worried about their stock price, sort of

487
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: making the argument that you know, these people actually sort

488
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 3: of never rest there, always serving the customer, you know,

489
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 3: creating delightful products, blah blah blah. And so we have

490
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 3: actually a better understanding of how they worked and how

491
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: they did their work than we do of many inventors

492
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 3: and entrepreneurs today.

493
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: That little fish with feet that Darwin came up with

494
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: was pretty sick. Marketing. I gotta say that branding is

495
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: pretty tight. He's kind of a marketing genius.

496
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: He did have his moments, you know, it's it's us.

497
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: It's us too bad that he was working before there

498
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: was actually any you know, social media.

499
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've always thought him more than an influencer

500
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: than anything. But yeah, okay, I think he did other

501
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: important stuff, you know.

502
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, he definitely had a lot of influence,

503
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: no question about that. And the other thing you see

504
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 3: when you look at these lives is there's an amazing

505
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 3: consistency in things like their daily schedules and sort of

506
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 3: when they worked, when they took breaks, and how they

507
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: kind of layered these periods of really focused work of

508
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: only like ninety minutes or ninety minutes to two hours

509
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 3: and then a break and then another deep dive what

510
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: Cal Newport calls deep work, and you do that like

511
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: three times a day, and that's about all they needed

512
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: in order to you know, come up with ideas that

513
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: sort have changed the world. And I think that's a

514
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: you know, it is a it's a great challenge to

515
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 3: the assumption that in order to do you know, world

516
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: changing stuff, we have to work enormously long hours. We

517
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: have to in effect sacrifice ourselves and our happiness and

518
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: our health and sometimes our families. Is in you know,

519
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 3: sort of to make you know, sort of to reach

520
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: some mountain top, make a discovery, et cetera, and that

521
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 3: it's possible to have you know, long sort of lives

522
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: that are longer, that are more sustainable, but also still

523
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: let us do really amazing work that or of you know,

524
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 3: lets us express our passions and that sort of is

525
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: deeply satisfying for a really long time. So that ultimately

526
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: is you know what Darwin taught me along with the

527
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: fish with the feet.

528
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is I've got I've got a ton of

529
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: those in my garage, trying to get rid of if

530
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: you want to buy something. Yeah, that is kind of

531
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: the whole point of this episode is actually trying to

532
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: help Miles move that product because he is.

533
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: I shouldn't haven't made it in pure gold. I think

534
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: that's right, I shouldn't have pure gold. Yeah, but what

535
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: do you think?

536
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: Like? So you know from my we talk about culturally right,

537
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: like how some places work themselves to death. I know

538
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: that from like I'm I'm a Japanese family who when

539
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: I first was working in media, they thought my job

540
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: was not serious because I wasn't like working day and night.

541
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: Are what like sort of what was sort of the

542
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: evolution of being able to be like I don't know,

543
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: Darwin works like a couple hours a day to sort

544
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: of this like new like the exaltation of like the

545
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: non stop working person and that is why they are successful.

546
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: How did we like what what jumps?

547
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: Did we make I'm assuming the Industrial Age had a

548
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: lot to do with that, but what what what like.

549
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: Where where were we and where are we now?

550
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: Essentially it did have a lot to do with it.

551
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: But even you know, one hundred years ago, there was

552
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: this sense that you know, super successful people of kind

553
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: of earned earned the right to leisure because of their success,

554
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: you know, not that getting rich met that you had

555
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 3: to never ever stop. Like if you look at old

556
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: issues of Forbes magazine from the nineteen tens, nineteen twenties, right,

557
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: Forbes magazine has never been one that's been especially critical

558
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: of capitalists, but you know, lots of those profiles have

559
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 3: stuff about how these guys spend like you know, still

560
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: go to Minnesota to tramp in the woods where they

561
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: grew up before, you know, sort of coming back to

562
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: Wall Street and you know, sort of you know and

563
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: sort of cornering the silver market. I think, you know, so,

564
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: you know part, but what happened to change that? I

565
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: think really starts like in the seventies and eighties, when

566
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 3: you have sort of the realignment of the American economy,

567
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: you have sort of the sort of along with the

568
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: growth of the computer industry, of the high tech industry

569
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: and finance simultaneously, both of which teach us that the

570
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: way to be successful now is not to chard at

571
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: the bottom, pay your dues, and work your way up. Right,

572
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: the age in which both General Electric and General Motors

573
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: could be run by guys named Charlie Wilson, both of

574
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 3: whom started in the mail rooms of their companies, was

575
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 3: now over right. The way you became rich was to

576
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 3: be like Steve Jobs right, or of overnight success or

577
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: like you know, Charlie Sheen and Wall Street, and that

578
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: becomes that becomes the model for what a successful career

579
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: looks like. In a sense, sort of you get rich

580
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: before the next you know, either before your technical skills

581
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 3: become obsolete, before the next turn of Moore's law means

582
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 3: that someone else has a sort of chance at bat

583
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 3: or you know, or of the next or of you know,

584
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: the next stage in the global economy or economic turndown,

585
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: or of you know, wipes everybody out, and then you know,

586
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: other structural factors like sort of the growth of or

587
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: of increasing reliance on sort of temporary labor stone of wages.

588
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 3: And culturally, I think the sensibility that you know work

589
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: goes from something that is important in every American's life,

590
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: to essentially the only thing right, more important than family,

591
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: than community, than religion. It means that it is like

592
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: the undisputed champion of everybody's existence. And so, you know,

593
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: all of that stuff together means that it's been really

594
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 3: hard to push back against all of that and to

595
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: imagine an alternative. And it's taken something as dramatic as

596
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 3: the pandemic right to sort of shift, to make a

597
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 3: lot of us shift gears to see that actually, you know,

598
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 3: all these things that we took for granted, that we

599
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: thought were like inevitable and inescapable turned out to be

600
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: things that we can change, and to begin to take

601
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: seriously the possibility that we can actually, you know, or

602
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: rather than have our workplaces changed virus, make these changes

603
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: ourselves for ourselves for the better. But you know, that's

604
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: that's a that's a brief history of how we got

605
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 3: how we got in here, and how we're getting out.

606
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that it happened in like the

607
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties at a time when like people started

608
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: really like hoarding and getting immoral amounts of wealth for

609
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: like doing things that like building things that weren't lasting

610
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: or you know, doing corporate rating and stuff. Yeah, corporate rating,

611
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: Like it reminds me the anecdote from the people's history

612
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: of the United States, where like the War Department changes

613
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: its name to the Department of Defense at the moment

614
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: that they start waging non defensive wars because they're like

615
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: they need this you know, linguistic defense mechanism to like

616
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: throw people's attention away. And it's like the the powers

617
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: that be in capitalism need this idea that like, well,

618
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: you just have to work harder, you just outwork every

619
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: one to justify that they're actually not doing anything that

620
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: is harder or more worthwhile and certainly not millions of

621
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: times more important than the people who they're out earning

622
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: by a factor of a million.

623
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: You know, Jack. That points to another important thing, which

624
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: is that you know, we've we've come to see or

625
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 3: of both success and challenges in the workplace as totally

626
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 3: like sort of individual and personal. Right, sort of, my

627
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 3: success is because I worked enormously long hours, not because

628
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 3: I have a social network I have patrons, friends, you know,

629
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: et cetera. Right, and if I have a pretty you

630
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: know sort of if I have if I have a

631
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 3: problem at work or if I want to be more

632
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 3: successful sort of the you know, the key is all

633
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 3: in what I myself do right, get up earlier, hustle harder,

634
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: et cetera. And I think that we've you know, of

635
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: even even those of us who turn out whose clocks

636
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 3: have thirty hours in a day rank you discover that

637
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: you know, at some point you run out of hours.

638
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 3: And the ability, you know, the ability to solve problems

639
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: that way hits a limit. And the fact that we

640
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: all share that we all have these kinds of problems

641
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: suggests that actually maybe a more powerful and enduring way

642
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: to deal with them would be to solve them together, right,

643
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 3: to act collectively. And that's one of the big things

644
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: behind stuff like or of the four day week is

645
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: that you know, it's something that's done in companies when

646
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: where everybody does it from the CEO or of you know,

647
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 3: CEO on down. And I think part of the success

648
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 3: of the movement has been that it has you know,

649
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 3: it has shown us, that shown us the power of

650
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: collective action to change how we work and to make

651
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 3: work better for us.

652
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: All. Yeah, that just made me think of the fact

653
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: that Zach Morris is the ultimate capitalist because you can

654
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: freeze time. He can freeze time, and that saved by

655
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: the bell. Yeah, of course do I don't think I

656
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,479
Speaker 1: have to explain that to anybody here, but I'm sure

657
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: this comes up all the time in academic circles. But

658
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: what like that he was and that that was a fantasy,

659
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: that was like a thing that I was when I

660
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: was younger. I was like, oh, man, to be able

661
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: to freeze time, you have like so much extra time,

662
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: I can like get so good at things or like

663
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: do all the all my work and then just like

664
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: come back and really, you know, living my life on

665
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: Zach Morris's clock, you know how, Like I'm curious, like

666
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: you know, when I got a lot more on Zach

667
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: Morris here, Miles, if you Oh, no, I was about to.

668
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: I was actually about to talk about the Jack Morris

669
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: when he had to take two people to the same dance.

670
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 2: Jack, let me finish the question. No, But Alex, like

671
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: we I think when we talk about what we talk

672
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: a lot about on the show, just sort of the

673
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: just terrible habit we have, especially in America and other

674
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: like western capitalist societies, just like it's all about work.

675
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: Productivity is the only metric to define your life, and like,

676
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: you know, we see that obviously, like at a more

677
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: professional level, but I feel like it's also really difficult

678
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: for people who like have like you know, hourly wage

679
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: working jobs and things like that. What is the sort

680
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: of same way because obviously I feel like when people

681
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: go like, I'm sure if you tell business owners like, oh,

682
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 2: four weeks, what for all my productivity to go down?

683
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: How do those sort of lessons apply to various industries?

684
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: Because I can easily see how, like in a professional thing,

685
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: it's like, well, we've got all these like invoices we

686
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: have to process as an accounting firm or whatever. Once

687
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: you're done, then you have something there. But like for

688
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: something that's like sort of like an always on business,

689
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: like retail consumer sort of facing business, what is the

690
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: same way? What is the way that that needs to

691
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: be messaged to those people for them to not think, well,

692
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 1: my line will go down if this happened. And how

693
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: does this how does this sort of vision offer a

694
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: new sort of form of I guess, you know, time

695
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: liberation for workers that are like in like in every sector.

696
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: Right, So okay, first of all, I think that the

697
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, it's the four day week is something that

698
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 3: the very you know, who's very earliest adopters tended more

699
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 3: to be in like professional and creative services. And partly

700
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 3: because that work is kind of more malleable and more

701
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 3: shapeable by individuals, it's also tends to be a little

702
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 3: more project based and so right, and you know, you're

703
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: not like actually moving physical things around, so sort of

704
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 3: easier to imagine how to redesign it. But one of

705
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: the really interesting things is that we've seen is it

706
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: move into places like nursing and I'm actually working with

707
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: a police department that's moving that is experimenting with thirty

708
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: two hour work weeks for officers, you know, and talk

709
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 3: about you know, talk about two industries where you don't

710
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 3: want you know, sleep to prived or of overworked people

711
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: coming in and making mistakes is like in an ICU,

712
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 3: and you know, sort of during any interaction with sort

713
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 3: of with law enforcement. And what we found there is that,

714
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 3: you know, okay, a couple things. Number One, that that

715
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: kind of work turns out to be just as creative

716
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 3: as what we think of as you know, creative work

717
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 3: of like people sitting around in meetings, you know, drawing

718
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: on whiteboards, it's just we don't recognize it as such. Right,

719
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: there's just as much ingenuity, sort of problem solving skill,

720
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: et cetera required to either defuse a situation, to you know,

721
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: assess what's going on in an emergency room, to calm

722
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: down people. And that's and so this kind of work

723
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 3: is just as responsive to the benefits of a shorter

724
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 3: work week on the part of individuals. Now, the way

725
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: that organizations make it work is for nurses, you know,

726
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 3: like plate places, like nursing homes, they have huge issues

727
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: around sort of turnover and sort of recruitment and retention. Right,

728
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 3: these are of these oftener jobs that are not very

729
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 3: well paid, they're highly stressful, and so you know, in

730
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 3: so it's easy for people to come into those jobs

731
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 3: work you know, for maybe a year or two, and

732
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 3: even if they like it, to find the stresses you know,

733
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: sort of are too much and for them to leave.

734
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 3: Moving to a shorter work week means that they have

735
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: more time, more time for recovery, so more time to

736
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: you know, and then but also it means that the

737
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: organizations themselves, like nursing homes that have moved to six

738
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 3: hour shifts while still paying people the same amount of

739
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: money that they were that they were paying for eight

740
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 3: hour shifts. They save enough in like in temp agency fees.

741
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 3: You know, when someone calls in sick, you've got to

742
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: get someone from a temp agency and it's like five

743
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 3: times is expensive hours to sort of you know, have

744
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 3: a regular full time person. You save so much money

745
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: on that that the programs pay for themselves and you

746
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: get higher quality of care, so less administration of psychotropic drugs,

747
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 3: fewer like bed sores, slips and falls, all the kinds

748
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: of things that indicate whether whether you know, whether nursing

749
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: home residents or people in the hospital are being well

750
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 3: cared for. And so you know, in a sense basically

751
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 3: there are there are industries in which there were hidden

752
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: costs to overwork and high turnover that a four day

753
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: week are subsidized by I think that's andre and we're seeing,

754
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: you know, we're seeing that in the restaurant industry, in healthcare.

755
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 3: The trial with the police force, it's an eighty person

756
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 3: force and they've saved something like two hundred thousand dollars

757
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: in overtime, which is like incredible in like the last

758
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 3: you know, four months or so they've been that they've

759
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 3: been doing it, and so you know, it's and so

760
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 3: it's not just that you know, these are sort of

761
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 3: these are jobs that you know, in which individuals benefit.

762
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 3: But it turns out that once you dive into the numbers,

763
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 3: there often are kind of systemic savings that justify moving

764
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: from sort of sort of from you know, eight from

765
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: eight hour shifts to or to shorter ones. So you know,

766
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 3: even when you have to pay more people, you have

767
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 3: to hire more staff, it's you know, the numbers still

768
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 3: work out. And then with retail, the most interesting thing

769
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,439
Speaker 3: I'm seeing has been sort of places that will stay

770
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: open now for twelve hours and have two six hour shifts.

771
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: So that means that you get more walk in you know,

772
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 3: you get more walk ins. People can you know, come

773
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: into the store or the garage before work, you know,

774
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 3: maybe get some work done or before they've got to

775
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: you know, drop the kids off. And it means that

776
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 3: you know, for you know, you get more customers and

777
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 3: more revenue. And so even if you have to hire

778
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 3: of one or two more people, it often can pay

779
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: for itself that way, or you know, sort of on

780
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: sort of more sales.

781
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about to think about the creative work that

782
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: police do. That's crazy because every time I'm pulled over,

783
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: they're like, why are you in this? Why are you

784
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: in this neighborhood? Because they're coming up with like really

785
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: interesting reasons why I shouldn't be there. But in their yeah,

786
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: they have that it's an exhaustion issue. I'm like, you

787
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: just get some rest. You could you need a nap? Sorry? Sorry, officer, sir,

788
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: you you seem so sleepy. He seems so sleepy.

789
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 2: But no, it is like, is there are there any

790
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: is there potentially any like this could apply to any job?

791
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: Right? Like is there like when looking at sort of

792
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: the way we toil and labor, is there any job

793
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: where you're like, okay, maybe that one has to kind

794
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 1: of stay that way. It's it's sort of it seems

795
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: I don't know for life perspect like I think it

796
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 1: supplies everything, right, Can we just call to day? Everyone

797
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: goes to four days?

798
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 3: I think you know, they were sort of looking at economically,

799
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 3: I think if you commute to work by helicopter, it's

800
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 3: going to be hard to move to a four day week.

801
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 3: So like if you're working on an oil rig or something, right,

802
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: it's like ten days on, ten days off. Just the

803
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 3: cost of getting to work and back is such that

804
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 3: a four day week is probably not going to work

805
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 3: very well. And then after that it becomes it really

806
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: becomes a matter of like a professional ideology. Right, Hedge

807
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 3: funds are not going to do it because they have

808
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 3: constructed incredibly profitable systems for hiring twenty two year olds,

809
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: working them to death and then discarding, you know, discarding

810
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 3: the desiccated husks three years later and hiring new kids

811
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: right right, so until they're you know, Viking freezers are

812
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 3: full of woggu beef right in their like apocalypse bunkers.

813
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 3: They're not going to have a lot of good vision board, yeah, exactly,

814
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 3: you know, but there were, you know, and then places

815
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 3: like law and medicine, you know, they pride themselves on

816
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: being able to work these kinds of titanically long hours

817
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 3: and they even though they recognize that they are high

818
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: costs to it, and it leads to sort of instability

819
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 3: for organizations and unnecessary burnout. Until now, it's been hard

820
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 3: to envision constructing something different. But so, you know, and

821
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: some of the you know, there were there definitely are

822
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 3: older people in these fields who really resist the idea

823
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 3: that you can you know, sort of you can scale

824
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 3: back hours and make the work better without making the

825
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 3: work worse. You know, occasionally you get people who say

826
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 3: that I can't do this because, look, I don't have

827
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: another life other than reading SEC filings or you know,

828
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 3: X rays, So don't ask me to do this.

829
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, let's actually, let's take one more break and

830
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: then I have another thing that I heard you say

831
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: that kind of made the whole thing fall into place

832
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: for me. So we'll be right back, and we're back.

833
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: I was just telling these guys I once came to

834
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: out of one of my sleep fugs while flying one

835
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: of those oil rig helicopters, and I didn't even know

836
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: how to fly a helicopter. I didn't think, but I

837
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: think I was just learning at an incredible rate. It's

838
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: called grinded man. Yeah, that's right. But so you I

839
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: heard you interviewed where the host I think it was

840
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: ten percent happier. The host was like, so, but you're

841
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: asking them to do the same amount of work in

842
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: less time, Like, how does that not cause problems? And

843
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: you responded with the thing that makes this whole thing

844
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: makes sense to me, that the idea that when you're

845
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: a worker and you get to keep the dividends of

846
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: your efficiency as the as the worker in this case,

847
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: like in the past, when you had workers doing their

848
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: job more efficiently and just the overall goal the overall

849
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: idea was that they had to work forty hours a week.

850
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: If they did their job more efficiently, capital kept the

851
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: dividends of that efficient work. They would just give you

852
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: more work to do. So if I figure out how

853
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: to make eight baskets in four days, and you know,

854
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: it used to be take me five days in the

855
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: traditional version of things, now my company asks me to

856
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: make ten baskets, They're just like, well, now you make

857
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: two baskets a day, buddy, you just did fuck it up. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,

858
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: you just fucked you by learning to do that. So,

859
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: like the incentive structure is all off, and so you know,

860
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: in that case, I would probably keep it a secret

861
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: or like build inefficiencies into my schedules so that I could,

862
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: you know, kill time at work unless there was like

863
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: some sort of structure attached to it. But even then,

864
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: like like working longer and faster and more intensely, like

865
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: I might not share that information with my fellow workers.

866
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: I might try and you know, or only apply it

867
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: when like the incentive structure was set up in the

868
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: right way. But like in a four day work week,

869
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: you figure out how to make eight baskets, you get

870
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: to keep the dividend of that efficiency by getting a

871
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: day off to you know, chill or do what you want.

872
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: And also you don't have to like keep it a secret.

873
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: It's just that like arbitrariness of that five day work

874
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: week is is like what gets in the way, like

875
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: just being like you have to fill the forty hours. Also,

876
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: something that like I came across just in researching the

877
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: five day or four day work week is the idea

878
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: that like just the seven day week is also arbitrary,

879
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: like years, days, months all correspond to physical events happening

880
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: two our planet, and the week is just kind of

881
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: made up. Like the the idea that like, oh no,

882
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: we have to fill five sevenths of this seven day

883
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: week is kind of bullshit. But but yeah, that that

884
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: idea that like this allows you to like keep the

885
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: dividends of your job of like your efficiency and make

886
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: your life better. Like that started that That was kind

887
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: of the key detail I needed to make this whole

888
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: thing makes sense to me, is that does that Does

889
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: that help you kind of understand what's going on and

890
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: is that sort of the dynamic that you see going

891
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: on when you see these programs working.

892
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, you know, I think that the of the

893
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 3: the one of the big ideas that we work with

894
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: companies and work with leadership to sort of to understand

895
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 3: is that the four day week is not just you know,

896
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 3: it's not a concession that companies are simply making to

897
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: their workforces, but rather, the four day week is something

898
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 3: that everybody is creating together, all right. By finding efficiencies,

899
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 3: by making meetings shorter, by doing other things in order

900
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 3: to use technology smarter or give people more focus time

901
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 3: sort of, you are in effect creating time that the

902
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: creators are able to reclaim for themselves. And that's incredibly

903
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 3: powerful for two reasons.

904
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: Right.

905
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 3: First of all, there is it's a tremendously short feedback

906
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 3: loop between what you're doing and what you get.

907
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: Right.

908
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 3: It's not like or if you're working harder, therefore or

909
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 3: of your retirement account is experst bigger, and you will

910
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 3: appreciate that forty years from now. It is we've done

911
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 3: these things together, and therefore we can go home at

912
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 3: the end of the day on Thursday and have a

913
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 3: three day weekend sort of. So you know, that's that's

914
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 3: a that's a very very immediate tangible reward. The second

915
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,240
Speaker 3: thing I think that's important is the sort of collective

916
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 3: aspect to it, right, that everybody works together in order

917
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 3: to make this happen. One of the class sick moves

918
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 3: in you know, sort of labor relations or management labor

919
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: relations is you know, offering the new guy on the

920
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 3: factory line or the machine tool you know, or the

921
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: machine tool shop sort of more money if they can

922
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: work faster, and the struggle always is between Traditionally sort

923
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 3: of wage incentives can be used as a way of

924
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 3: breaking labor solidarity and sort of and sort of forcing

925
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 3: a ratcheting up of sort of of output at the

926
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 3: expense of workers. And you know, one of the things

927
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 3: that skilled laborers part of their power is an ability

928
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 3: collectively to push back against increases in you know, demands

929
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 3: and increased productivity. And in a sense, the four day

930
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 3: week takes the kind of vision of collective action of

931
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 3: efficiency and flips it around so that you are working

932
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 3: together and you have a great incentive to share, you know,

933
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 3: to share those greater efficiencies to share ways of working smarter,

934
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 3: but not in a way that benefits me, becomes at

935
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 3: your expense, but helps all of us. And you know,

936
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 3: it does mean that companies you have to sort of

937
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 3: the one big thing they've got to they have to

938
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 3: get there, you know, get their heads around is you

939
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 3: don't you know, let people figure all this stuff out

940
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: and then at the end of the trial say, you know,

941
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 3: it's awesome, you figured out how to do all this

942
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 3: work in four days. Now let's go back to five

943
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: and you can just produce twenty percent more for me.

944
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, imagine we took that and do that

945
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 1: five days a week.

946
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 3: Fortunately, fortunately it has not happened, and you know, not

947
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 3: with sort of not with not with any of the

948
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 3: companies that sort of that four day week glow has

949
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: worked with. And I think partly number one, everybody recognizes

950
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 3: that this is the this is the you know, this

951
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 3: is the fastest way to getting your sort of your

952
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 3: business burned down, and any jury saying yeah, that's okay

953
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 3: sort of the sort of yes, the purpose, Yeah, you know,

954
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 3: the perpetrators were sort of we're acting out of a

955
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: sense of justice, but also you know, the boss is

956
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 3: get a forty week two and for all of our

957
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 3: you know, and the sort of indignation at capitalism, it

958
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 3: is a fact that you know, particularly entrepreneurs and people

959
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: in executive roles do have really high levels of stress, burnout,

960
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 3: drug dependency, sort of, et cetera, all of which signals

961
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 3: that they benefit just as much from a four day

962
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 3: week as everybody else. And so when the seat, you know,

963
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 3: after after six months of having a four day work week,

964
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 3: most CEOs are willing to say, you know, actually this

965
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 3: is kind of saving my life and I'm not as

966
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 3: much of a heart attack risk, and I remember the

967
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 3: names of my children and that, you know, when my

968
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 3: wife recognizes me, and maybe the dream maybe I can

969
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 3: live with that, right?

970
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: So right?

971
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah?

972
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: Is it sort of do these like do a lot

973
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: of CEOs because obviously those are that's the neck that

974
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: turns the head in most instances in an organization. Does

975
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: it take them to like they can't just understand it

976
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: intellectually when this is described to them, it's sort of

977
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: like I have to experience it and then I can

978
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: come around because it's too abstract. Or do some people

979
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: when told about like the efficiencies and how much how

980
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: beneficial it is not just for the business but also

981
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: the workers and employees that they're able to turn around.

982
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: Like what, because I feel like that's that's the one

983
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: thing that's probably keeping so many companies from doing this.

984
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: You're like, ah, that's a bunch of hippie crap or

985
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: whatever they think it is. It's like, I'm a I'm

986
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:00,720
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna work to I die.

987
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: And also I work hard so I can afford to

988
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: do the drugs that I do.

989
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: I do the good ones, that's how hard. So I

990
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,240
Speaker 1: can afford more coke so I can do more cokes

991
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: so I could do more Yeah.

992
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you raise a terrific point, which is

993
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 3: that you know, first of all, almost every company there

994
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 3: is some senior person who is championing this. Very often,

995
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 3: you know, in startups it's the founder or like founding

996
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 3: team who have themselves spent like ten or fifteen years

997
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 3: doing seventy eighty hour weeks and they're realizing, you know,

998
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 3: they've got kids, now, they're getting a little older, and

999
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: they're wondering, how much longer can I keep this up?

1000
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 3: And then I think that they so they very often

1001
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 3: are sort of or are leading the charge within their organizations.

1002
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 3: And then in terms of you know, can you just

1003
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 3: look at the numbers that you have to feel it?

1004
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 3: You got to feel it, and right, I think that

1005
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 3: you know, sort of one of the pieces of advice

1006
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 3: that we give to let's say, people who are not

1007
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 3: at the executive level about how to sell this sort

1008
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 3: of you know, sell it upwards is the numbers are good,

1009
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 3: but they're not the thing that really sort of gets

1010
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 3: people over the line. What gets people over the line

1011
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 3: is a vision of how their lives and how everybody's

1012
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: life could be different and could be better if the

1013
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,439
Speaker 3: CEO is willing to take the lead on this. It's

1014
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 3: a little bit like One Last Job movies, which I

1015
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 3: absolutely love, right, Yeah, you know you've always got the

1016
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 3: rock or nick Cage or someone you got to steal

1017
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 3: fifty cars before you know, in twenty four hours, or

1018
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 3: they're going to kill your brother and one of the things,

1019
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 3: you know, and it's a huge goal. But in these movies,

1020
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: you never do it by yourself. Right. The first thing

1021
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 3: you do is you assemble your team, you know usual

1022
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 3: and you know of it's you know, you have your

1023
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 3: sort of driver and your hacker and your master of disguise,

1024
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 3: et cetera.

1025
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: Maybe a big, muscular, huge Jackman.

1026
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 3: Exactly, huge Jackman. Yeah, to return to the previous to.

1027
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: The yeah, I think yeah, yeah.

1028
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 3: But and you know, one of the things that successful

1029
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 3: pitches do in a sense is say, we've got the team, right,

1030
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,919
Speaker 3: We've got the chief, you know, resource officer. We've got

1031
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 3: sort of people and culture. We've got sort of this

1032
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 3: small crew that's willing to do it, but we need

1033
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 3: the leader. And what CEO doesn't secretly want to be

1034
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 3: Nicholas Cage stealing fifty cars. And you know that's a

1035
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 3: sort of that you know, that turns it from you know,

1036
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 3: kind of a you know, an abstract you know, business

1037
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 3: calculation into something for which they can really have sort

1038
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 3: of some passion and some dedication.

1039
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And it appeals to the ego, which is

1040
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: always exactly you know. It's a great, great tool obviously

1041
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: when trying to motivate people.

1042
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, this can't happen without you, but it will change

1043
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 3: everyone's life if it does.

1044
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you to be like a local god, you know,

1045
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: right in your mind, if you'd be so kind enough

1046
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: in benevolent that's right. Well, I feel like we could

1047
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: keep talking about this for a long time with you,

1048
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: and we'll have to have you back on as you

1049
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: kind of continue to spread the word about this. But

1050
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: doctor Alex Sujun King Peng, it's such a pleasure having

1051
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: you on the show. Where can where can people find you?

1052
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: Follow you all that good stuff? Read you?

1053
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 3: Right? So the forty week globals website is four Day

1054
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 3: week dot com, which is very convenient. And then my

1055
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 3: book rest is available everywhere fond you know sort of

1056
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 3: books are sold, and also the place where books are

1057
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 3: sold online. And then my book about the four day

1058
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 3: Week is called Shorter, and you know, once again that's out.

1059
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 3: And then I don't do a whole lot on social

1060
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 3: media these days because I'm sort of busy with another

1061
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 3: book project and lots of other stuff. But if you

1062
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 3: want to see like pictures of my dog on Instagram,

1063
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 3: I am ask Pang ask p a ng and that's

1064
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 3: actually my handle on pretty much everything, So you can

1065
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 3: be part of that select circle of my forty three

1066
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 3: followers or so sort of social media.

1067
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: There you go. I like that, Yeah, I like that.

1068
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: What kind of dog do you? Just so we can

1069
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: chum the waters.

1070
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 3: Little fifteen little fifteen pounds spaniel who's about who's about

1071
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 3: like sixteen years old now.

1072
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: So, oh, a lot of books. We do. We do

1073
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: Spaniels on this, Yeah, we do, we do. I've got

1074
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: a couple of them. And is there a work of

1075
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 1: media that You've been enjoying.

1076
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 3: A work of media that I've been enjoying social or

1077
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 3: otherwise social or otherwise you know, watching can I can?

1078
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 3: I say, sort of a certain sort of schadenfreud, sort

1079
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 3: of watching the dumpster fire of X, sort of that

1080
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 3: whole story, you know, just you know, living in Silicon

1081
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 3: Valley and knowing a couple of people who had been

1082
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 3: working at Twitter, sort of seeing what's been going on

1083
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 3: with that has been remarkable and kind of terrifying in

1084
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 3: terms of, you know, any other media that I've been enjoying.

1085
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 3: Ryuichi's I've been listening to a lot of Ryuichi Sakamoto,

1086
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 3: who was a composer. He was a founding member of

1087
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,479
Speaker 3: Yellow Magic Orchestra and then went on and did lots

1088
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 3: of soundtracks and very experimental stuff. He just died a

1089
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 3: few months ago, So Mark, yeah, you know, yeah, in March.

1090
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 3: But you know, as an example of someone who was

1091
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 3: incredibly creative for an incredibly long time, he is sort

1092
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 3: of I think a real model for us, all right,

1093
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 3: the guy who could do you know, bring electronic music

1094
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 3: to Japan but also win an oscar for you know,

1095
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 3: his soundtrack work and collaborate with David bow you know,

1096
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 3: sort of co star in a movie with David Bowie.

1097
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 3: You know, this guy was a baller and so sort

1098
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 3: of and you know his work is so varied there's

1099
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 3: something in it for everyone. So that's amazing. So yeah,

1100
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 3: that sounds great. And Miles, where can people find you?

1101
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 3: Is there a workingmedia you've been enjoying?

1102
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, find me on wherever they got the at thing?

1103
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: Shift heild the shift key and then hit number two

1104
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: and then type in Miles of Gray, m I L

1105
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: E s oh I just hit my knee on the desk.

1106
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: M I E S O F g R A Y.

1107
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: And then also, if you like basketball, you can hear

1108
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: Jack and I on our basketball podcast Miles and Jack

1109
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: Got Mad Boosties. And if you like ninety Day Fiance,

1110
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: catch me on four twenty Day Fiance and also The

1111
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: Good Thief. That's so many shows, so just you know,

1112
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: just just look for me and deal you'll find the podcast.

1113
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: Listening to Miles's voice, Oh, please. That's all I hear. Although,

1114
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: help me get to Lambeau please. I haven't seen my

1115
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: son in five months. Then that's by choice. That's by choice,

1116
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 1: because I'm not done grind. But Alex has given me

1117
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: the courage to maybe shave off an hour or two

1118
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: of just looking at used Lambeau ads. And to that,

1119
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: I am, I am. I owe you a debt of gratitude.

1120
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: Let's see in terms of tweets or anything like, I

1121
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: not I don't. I don't have anything on Twitter Instagram

1122
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: that I've liked. I let's see, did I see anything? No?

1123
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: I don't really have anything to suggest at the moment.

1124
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: It's mister, you know, let me know, put me onto something.

1125
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: I need a new show that's a murder mystery because

1126
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: that's the only thing her majesty my partner likes to

1127
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: watch with me. She won't watch comedy with me, so

1128
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: give me, give me good and something with European people

1129
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: in that always works, So hit me as I imployed.

1130
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: That got to be European people. She loves a good

1131
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: European people and all the meme and murdering. All right, Uh,

1132
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien tweet,

1133
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying. David Hines tweeted me, So you just

1134
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 1: released the Exorcist Believer Blumhouse. Yes me, and you're calling

1135
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: the second one the Exorcist Deceiverhouse. Yes me. My pitch

1136
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: is for the third one Blumhouse. Oh no me, Extreme

1137
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: airbud guy voice. There's no rule that says a dog

1138
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: can't conduct an exorcism the exercise Golden Golden Believer. It's

1139
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: up to you, that's what That's what You guys are

1140
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: the creative ones. You're the ones who are allowed to

1141
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: take breaks, not us. You can find us on Twitter

1142
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: at daily Zeikeeist. We're at d daily Zeitgeist on Instagram.

1143
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: We have a Facebook fanpage and a website daily zeikeist

1144
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: dot com, where we post our episodes and our our footnotes.

1145
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: We link off to the information that we talked about

1146
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 1: in today's episode, as well as a song that we

1147
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: think you might enjoy. Miles, is there a song that

1148
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: you think people might enjoy? Yeah, I was just listening

1149
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: to this duo that I think they're from Atlanta. I

1150
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: heard them years ago, like where there was a track

1151
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: with claro like rapping on it. With them. They're called

1152
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: Coco and Claire Claire and they have a track called

1153
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: Outro and it's like their music just like fun dy,

1154
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 1: like bedroom hip hop and they're like monotone. Flow is

1155
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 1: just always I've always I've always been a fan. So

1156
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: this is Outro by Coco and Claire Claire. All right, well,

1157
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 1: we will link off to that in the footnotes. The

1158
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: Daily Zeitgeist does a production of iHeartRadio for more podcasts

1159
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio is the heart Radio Wrap, Apple

1160
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That's

1161
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 1: going to do it for us this morning, back this

1162
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 1: afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we will

1163
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: talk to y'all then bye bye