WEBVTT - #411 Jason Flom with John Jerome White 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.039 John Jerome White received compensation for his wrongful conviction in 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:10.559 the state of Georgia, but only after having to convince 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.960 a majority of the state legislature that he deserved that compensation. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:16.959 At the twenty twenty three Innocance Network Conference, we spoke 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.000 with John and other Georgia ex honoreies like Clarence Harrison, 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.200 who also had to go through the same arduous process, 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:25.920 and they're all in the fight to bring about change 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.080 in their home state. John White, man with a common 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.120 name and a very uncommon story, and we're excited to 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:34.960 hear what you're up to now. I know you're doing 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.120 some very very positive work. 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.560 We've got toil states in the United States that don't 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.440 have a compensation law. In Georgia one of them, Man, 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.879 I've been strong with advocate they get some type of 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.839 compensation law in play. That way, if I'm the guy 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.520 that's coming out, it seems like she would be common 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.920 knowledge that you know they did it wrong. They should 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:54.440 rectify it. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:56.920 I mean, they can never rectify it because they can't 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.520 give you your years of your life back. But how 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.600 can you say to some buddy, oops, we locked you 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.039 up for half of your life, three quarters of your life, 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.000 whatever it is, but we got nothing for you when 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:07.600 you come home. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.360 It's amazing how simpleathety they are. It's really amazing, you know. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.319 They they seem to be fighting tooths in nails to 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:15.919 not let this happen. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.920 Let's not forget that guys like yourself spend it all 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.600 that time in prison. You don't get socials. You don't 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:23.759 qualify for any of the benefits that anybody else does 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:24.640 just from being free. 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.160 We don't got no Social Security benefit if we weren't 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.000 given the opportunity to build oodle benefits. So and when 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.760 we apply for them, they tell us you don't have 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.200 nothing built up to receive these farms, you know. But 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.720 they seem to want to keep their eye closed to 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:43.480 the fact that, you know, their wrongs created a problem 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.280 for the guy that coming out. We have plans, that's 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.480 the reasons getting together and going to these capitals in 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:53.080 these states that don't have these conversation all and lobby 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.640 them for ourself and inform these people that is their 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.840 responsibility to address these issues. And you know, yup in 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.160 their process of uscain in a meaningful lifestyle back in society. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.240 When it comes to trying to make some kind of 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:12.360 amends for these horrendous injustices. I'm just not sure how 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.240 anyone could be against it. So when this legislation comes 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.880 up for a vote, maybe keeping John's story fresh in 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.080 their minds and all of our minds will help. Here's 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:26.880 our original coverage right now. In the early morning hours 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.880 of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, a seventy four year 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.560 old woman was asleep in her den when she awoke 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.640 to find a black man had broken in through the 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.160 window by the light of her television. He brutalized and 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:44.120 raped her for over an hour. After stealing seventy dollars, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.840 The assailant pulled the telephone court out of the wall 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.720 and fled through the back door. When the victim finally 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:52.720 was able to contact the police, she was taken to 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.280 the hospital, but in her bloodied state, they decided against 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:01.160 performing a rape kit. However, other biological evidence was collected 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.240 from the scene. The victim helped that Georgia Bureau of 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.400 Investigation develop a composite sketchet immediately. One of the investigators 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.480 said that it looked like a young man named John 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.840 Jerome White, who was a person of interest in a 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:17.120 string of burglaries. They arrested John and collected physical samples 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.200 from him as well as his driver's license. Even though 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.120 none of the physical evidence was a match for John, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.800 the victim identified him at first in a photo array 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.200 and then again at a live lineup. And after all that, 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.280 how could anyone deny her gut wrench in courtroom identification? 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:51.960 So they didn't. This is rawful conviction. Welcome back to 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:56.280 wrongful conviction today. We have a unique story, but not rare, 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.000 and it's just as tragic every time something like this happen. 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.280 Happens when a black man is misidentified by a white victim. 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.520 So there's this double victimization that happens. And it was 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.240 much easier for these things to happen before the dawn 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.360 of DNA testing. Not that they don't still happen to it, 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.480 because they do. But here to discuss the matter. As 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.440 the former executive director of the Georgia Andasis Project, she's 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.560 now with the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit. So, Amy Maxwell, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.839 without further ado, thank you for joining us here again 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.880 on wrongful conviction. Thank you for having me and now 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.800 the man she represented, mister John Jerome White. You know 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.880 I'm sorry for the reason why you're here joining us today, 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.640 but we are really honored to have you. 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:40.000 Thank you. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.400 You're very welcome. So, John, as we like to do here, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.400 you know, it's sort of almost a tradition. Now, we'd 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.640 like to spend some time getting to know you a bit. 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.719 I think our audience get to know you a bit. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.240 So can you tell us a little bit about what 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.440 your life was like prior to all this insanity? Uh? 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.160 Well, I'm from the Smile what we'd like to call 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.480 it the railroad town, Uh, in Manchester, Georgia. Uh, that's 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.080 in South Georgia. I'm the only boy's six girls. I 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.800 was raised by my grandmother. I'd love to do things 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.279 for my grandmother, you know, cut wood and working in 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.920 gardens and things of that nature. You know, growed up 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:20.120 and got a chance to experience you know, what we 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.840 like to call what cross town. That's you know, the 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:27.000 city of Manchester, you know, and I kind of got 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.320 away from my grandmama, you know, hold on me and 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:30.880 you know, making sure I was doing the right thing 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:35.800 and thing. And during the time all this occurred, you know, 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.320 I had started to do little miner burgers and things 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.480 of that nature. Here around Manchester convenience stores and merchant 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.040 stores like that. I was going in the wrong direction. 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:48.640 It was going totally against the way I was brought up, 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:50.960 you know, how it all happened to me, you know, 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.039 and the way things happened. I felt like it regards 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.120 way of putting that putting that roadblock in my path. 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.400 Well, that sounds like one way of taking response ability 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.800 for the actual wrong that you've admitted to doing in 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.040 the past. And I suppose thinking of your wrongful conviction 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.560 like that is a way to make peace with it. 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.479 But I mean, sometimes on this show we speak with 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.359 folks that are pulled completely out of obscurity to be 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:16.200 tried for a crime that had absolutely nothing to do 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.800 with But in your case, and this doesn't make it 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:21.800 right by any means, but you were known entity the 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.159 police because of those burglaries down in Manchester. But the 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.240 crime in question wasn't burglary. It was rape. And you 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.640 had never exhibited any sort of violence and certainly no 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.920 sexual violence before. So it's really a hell of a 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:37.320 label to get saddled with. 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.920 Yeah, I couldn't believe it. You know, I always been 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.840 the type that you know, I respect the women you know, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.120 I was raised by my grandmother, you know, all alive 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.840 that you know, that's all I've been around, you know, women, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.200 And it was kind of hard to believe that, you know, 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.120 I would be in charge with, you know, the whole 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:53.719 type of crime. 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.599 Nevertheless, the burglaries had you on the radar of the 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.800 local police when this terrible crime occurred. And it was 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.800 in the early morning hours of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.599 when a man broke into the Manchester, Georgia home of 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:09.039 a seventy four year old woman. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.360 Well, what we know is that she was in the din. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.120 She was asleep on her couch, and she had her 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.679 sheets on the couch, and she did have the light 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.360 on in the kitchen, and she had her television on, 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.720 so that was the only line available to her. She 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:28.760 also wore prescription glasses and she didn't have her glasses 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:33.040 on and someone broke in through a window in the din. 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:37.360 He attacked her, He raped her, He brutalized her for 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.800 over an hour. Then he ripped out the telephone cords 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.559 out of the wall and went out the back door. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.400 He also stole seventy dollars in cash from her purse. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.160 Now she eventually called the cops and was taken to 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.080 the hospital. But do I have this right that no 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:53.520 rape kit was collected. 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.200 No rape kit was collected. They said because she was 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.720 so damaged during the rape, The rape was so brutal, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.040 and there was just so much blood, they made a 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:12.320 determination that they couldn't get any viable evidence. And you know, 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.720 you've got to remember back then, they were only able 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.960 to do blood typing. So I think that their thought 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.640 process may have been, there's so much of her blood, 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.160 you know, his blood type is going to just get 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.840 all mixed up in there. They may also have not 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.679 wanted to got to remember, this is a small town, 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:35.439 right They might have been concerned that she was already 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.760 so traumatized that they didn't want to do any more 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.880 of an examination. You know, she was seventy four years old, 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.440 and I can't even imagine how she was presenting to 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:50.160 the doctors. Obviously they should have done a sexual assault kit, 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.360 they certainly would today, but they did not. 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.120 And since there was no rape kit, there's no seminal evidence. 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.400 But there was other blood and biological evidence at the scene, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.720 which we'll get into in a bit. But in nineteen 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.360 seventy nine, as Amy mentioned, all we had was soerrology, 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:12.080 which had its own limitations. DNA testing, of course, was 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.640 not available yet, and I can't imagine collecting a rape 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.000 kit would have been an easy thing to do with 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.200 this poor seventy four year old woman in the state 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.439 that she was in. But the fact that she did 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.400 somehow survive, she must have been some tough lady. So 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.360 what happened next in this investigation. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:31.880 Well, I should point out that this is such a 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.600 small town that their local police didn't do the investigation. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.640 They brought in the state police, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.520 And when they were collecting evidence, they collected the bed 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.520 sheet that was on the couch, and the bed sheet 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:50.120 had hairs. Now, I will say that at trial they 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.520 only thought there was one hair. It turned out there 0:09:53.520 --> 0:10:00.199 were several hairs on that bed sheet, and they preserved that. Yeah, 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:04.120 I will say that at trial the hairs were discussed, 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.000 to use the parlance at the time, they were negroid hairs, 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.040 and that's pretty much all they could say about them. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:16.360 They did a microscopic examination of them and they said 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.560 that they looked almost exactly alike, that they were almost 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.679 positive that they were from the same person. Of course, 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.320 what that is is a human eye is looking at 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:31.640 two hairs and their pubic hair, so they're very small hairs, right, 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.160 and saying, oh, yeah, they look alike, you know. And 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.280 back then that was good evidence, right, Not so much. 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.920 Now, yeah, definitely not. We did a whole episode, by 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.520 the way of Wrongful Conviction Junk Science that Josh Duben 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.280 hosted about hair microscopy, and we're going to link to 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.920 it in the episode bio. But to think that someone 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.880 could compare hairs from a suspect and a crime scene 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.000 just by looking and match them to the exclusion by 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.720 the way of all other potential suspects, every anybody else, 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.720 all other people on the whole planet, is absolutely bonkers. Now, 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.440 remember they used to do that all the damn time. Now, 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.080 they mentioned that these hairs were from a black man, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.160 as the victim had already told them, But what about 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.040 this piece of skin that I read about? 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:21.800 Yes, so apparently when the man came in through the window, 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.640 he cut himself on his hand and there was literally 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:31.840 like a triangular piece of his palm that was also 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:33.800 recovered from the scene. 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.640 And it's unclear whether or not they did seriological testing 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.640 on that either. But we're going to come back to 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.640 the piece of skin in a bit. But at this 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:47.360 point they moved on to relying on cross racial identification. Now, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.880 study after study has shown, these are studies of which 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.480 they used a control group that has not seen the crime, 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.439 that that control group tends to be more accurate than 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:06.760 victims or witnesses. So get this. Cross racial identification has 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:13.240 been proven to be less accurate than guessing. So if 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.680 you actually didn't even witness the crime and were shown 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.400 a lineup, you'd have a better chance of picking the 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.600 person just by guessing than someone who did witness the crime. 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.120 It's an amazing thing, but it's true. Look it up. 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:26.960 I encourage you. 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:31.120 So they do a composite sketch of her attacker that 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.040 she saw in the dark, the only light from the 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.800 kitchen and the television while she's being traumatized. Right, So 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.920 she does do a composite sketch, and there is a 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:45.400 GBI agent who is part of the investigation. He says, hey, 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.720 that looks a lot like John White. And then everything, 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.240 of course, is often running at that point. 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.640 So John, this wasn't a big town, so I'm sure 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.400 word traveled fast at that point, had you heard about 0:12:58.400 --> 0:12:59.160 what had happened? 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.079 We heard, you know, this particular lady had got raped. 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.040 You know, I didn't think much of it. I really didn't, 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.800 you know. And when all this occurred, they was suspect 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.280 me for doing those mint of burgers around town, and 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.360 come to find out that they were looking for me. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.120 So I decided to just up and leave Manchester. You know, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.319 I was at the age of nineteen then, and I 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.080 went to a little small town and the Corps Georgia, 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.280 where I had some people, you know, some cousins staying. 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.079 So this crime happened on August eleventh, and they finally 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.400 caught up with you into Court, Georgia and drove you 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.640 back to Meriweather County around September twenty first. 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.319 On the ride back, they kept on asking me questions 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.920 about this here particular crime involved in the seventy something 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.800 year old lady and I had a venera disease they 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.840 called goungria, And you know, being a little small addict 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.640 like I was, you know, I didn't answer the question directly. 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.080 You know. When they kept on asking me, I said, well, 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.440 if I did it, she got goungria. They took that 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:14.000 and I like to say they ran with it. When 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.199 they got me back to the county jail. They took 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.640 a house and apples ping of Prince a love s 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.040 an apple blood from me, and they took my driving 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.320 license and I'm a Social Security car and everything, and 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:26.720 you know, they locked me up. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.480 So they took those samples in order to run tests 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.600 on all the physical evidence that they had tried to 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.040 match the hair. Like we already mentioned, they probably did 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.840 some seriological testing with the patcherskin in your blood. We 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.560 don't know that for sure, but that would seem like 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.920 it would have been the least thing they could have done. 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.320 And had any of it matched you, they would have 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.320 been shouting it from the rooftops. Now they already had 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.600 this composite sketch that they thought looked like you. They 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.520 had to catch up with you a few towns away, 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.720 and you were being held for the burglaries. 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.440 My grandma came to get me out the next day. Apple, 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.320 you know, had brought me back to Milweather County. That's 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.160 when she was on that I would be in charge with, 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.080 you know, Ray Rob reggravated so and murgery. 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.320 Curiously, she got that news before they had even taken 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.680 your driver's license to be viewed by the victim in 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:15.880 an alleged photo array. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.560 I don't know if they took my driving license or 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.200 they took many pictures. They say they took a photo 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.760 array to her apartment, but I'm assuming they took my 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:26.840 driver license. 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.000 We don't know much about it because, of course, you know, 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.480 they didn't record a lot of information. They certainly didn't 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.960 record the photo array, and I don't believe we ever 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.000 found that photo array did with John. I don't think 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.760 we've ever seen those photos, so we don't know who 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:45.440 else was in the photo and how well they matched, 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.320 either the composite or John. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.320 Now, maybe this composite sketch looked enough like you that 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:56.120 your likeness was already imprinted in her mind, So photo 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.320 array or not, she had been primed to pick you 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.280 with that come positive in mind. And it's also possible 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.760 that they only brought along your driver's license rather than 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.440 a number of other photos that favored your features. We 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.680 don't know, but now you had been chosen from this 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.520 alleged photo array, and things started going down how fast? 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:15.960 A few you know, weeks after they did all this 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.440 here they performed the line up it was just us 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.800 on the room and me standing about ten feet from her, 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.640 along with a few other guys. And I couldn't believe, 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.320 you know, it would tick with because they brought another 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.760 person up there of a place I had robbed, and 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.200 she didn't pick me out, but they brained it old 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.840 Lady nine, and she picked me out. Like I said, 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:40.480 I'm quite sure that any take now one of the 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.800 other guy pictures that was in that line up to her, 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.040 and I'm the only somebody she had seen recently on 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:45.520 a photo. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.520 Again, we're not sure what happened at that alleged photo lineup, 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.960 as no documentation has ever been found, But I want 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.600 our audience to note that I witnessed misidentification is a 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.880 contributing factor in sixty nine percent of all known convictions, 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.760 and in this case, we have a cross racial mis identification. So, 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:10.240 as I mentioned earlier, in study after study, cross racial 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:15.080 identifications are actually less accurate than guessing. But what about 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:19.680 the robbery victim also white and that would have been 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:24.119 the correct identification. It's crazy, but okay, so cross racial 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.080 or not, she had already been primed to pick you 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.199 out of the lineup by seeing your driver's license, in 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.439 addition potentially to a composite sketch that may have favored 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:38.000 you or you know, pointed towards you. I mean, nineteen seventies, Georgia. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.520 You were already known to police, and then an old 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.040 white lady who had been brutally attacked identified you. I 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.560 hate to say it, but I think your fate was 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.840 pretty much sealed. Did you have a court appointed or 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:53.800 a paid attorney? 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.240 They gave me a quarter pointed attorney. But my mom 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.280 and them, you know, they raised the money and they 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.200 had you know, Sampa Bishop. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.760 And he's now a US representative, right. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.119 He was a part of the legislature back you know, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.639 when I was going to trial, they took me to trial. 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.760 You know, they picked a jeer which was mainly all white. 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.040 They presented the evidence. The finger pressed they said they 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.959 collected at the scene of the crime. They said all 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.480 of them were sponge, to the point that they couldn't 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.000 get no kind of identification off of them. They say 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.600 the blood test came back negative. I don't know what 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.080 they had tested. I don't know they tested the skin. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.280 I don't know what it was. But the crime left 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.359 in buscating said the houseyble could be mine. I know 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:35.960 they brought up the pigmentation of a black person's hair 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.960 and they said it was all of it was. 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.440 Some which really this technician was testifying that the hair 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.680 was a black person's and you were also black, which 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.159 is just not that probative. And what was it that 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:48.680 they tested your blood against. 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.639 I don't really remember what it was they tested with 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.920 the blood, I have to be honest with you. But also, 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.120 you know we talked about the piece of skin, right 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.560 that there was the cut, and when they picked John 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:04.120 up five weeks later, he had a cut on his palm, 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:06.680 and so that was another. 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.280 Piece, right. But the item that they tested for blood, 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.359 which the skin, was more than likely the item it 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.520 excluded him. But I suppose none of this matters when 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.840 you have the word of a seventy year old white 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.480 lady who was a victim of a brutal assault. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.280 They actually to peak me out in court why she 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:26.080 was on a fan. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.960 The problem with eyewitness identification is it's unreliable, but it's 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:37.000 incredibly powerful in court. You have a now seventy five 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:41.080 year old woman who is so traumatized the er didn't 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.439 even want to do an examination of her. Get on 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.040 the stand and say that's the man that did that 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.439 to me. You know, the jury at that point is 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.439 done right if there's a few little things that they 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.240 can put together, like oh, that hair might be the same, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.800 or oh when he had a cut too, that was enough. 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.840 I mean, how do you combat that? Even pointing out 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.439 that she wore glasses, that it was dark in there. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.399 It's debatable whether that helps or hurts your client. When 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.280 you have an emotionally charged moment like that, how are 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.880 you going to try to contradict her the victim? Right? John? 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:19.879 At that point, did you have any hope that the 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.000 jury might actually still get this right? 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.480 You know, me knowing that I didn't do it, I 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:26.159 didn't have no doubt in my mind that I was 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.840 going on. I was that young, and I was so 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.000 inexperienced that I thought I was going home. 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.760 Can you take us back to that awful moment when 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:36.000 they read the verdict. 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:40.639 That it broke down and started crying. You know, I 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:45.760 will convicted the rape, robbery, aggravated, the salt and two 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.919 council burgeries. And they asked me did I have anything 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.240 to say? I just said I didn't do it. When 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:52.840 they took me back to the hole and say, well, 0:20:52.880 --> 0:21:10.639 I know, I broke down and started crying. I was 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.199 corresponding with a cousin of mind. You know. He told me, 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.240 you know, you know, God got his reasons for everything, 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:17.920 you know what I'm saying. And he said it was 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.399 a reason behind it, you know for me, you know, 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.679 it was a reason behind and I thought, I just 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.960 thought that reason behind it, you know, I just accepted 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:31.040 it at God will, and I moved forward. I couldn't 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.760 go through that their time, all that time that they 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.159 gave me feeling some type of way, and I just 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.639 had to learn how to how to survive inside the contention. 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.520 I found what they call it jail house attorney, and 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.919