1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: John Jerome White received compensation for his wrongful conviction in 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: the state of Georgia, but only after having to convince 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: a majority of the state legislature that he deserved that compensation. 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: At the twenty twenty three Innocance Network Conference, we spoke 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: with John and other Georgia ex honoreies like Clarence Harrison, 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: who also had to go through the same arduous process, 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: and they're all in the fight to bring about change 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: in their home state. John White, man with a common 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: name and a very uncommon story, and we're excited to 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: hear what you're up to now. I know you're doing 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: some very very positive work. 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 2: We've got toil states in the United States that don't 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: have a compensation law. In Georgia one of them, Man, 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 2: I've been strong with advocate they get some type of 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: compensation law in play. That way, if I'm the guy 16 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: that's coming out, it seems like she would be common 17 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: knowledge that you know they did it wrong. They should 18 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: rectify it. 19 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they can never rectify it because they can't 20 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: give you your years of your life back. But how 21 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: can you say to some buddy, oops, we locked you 22 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: up for half of your life, three quarters of your life, 23 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: whatever it is, but we got nothing for you when 24 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: you come home. 25 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: It's amazing how simpleathety they are. It's really amazing, you know. 26 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 2: They they seem to be fighting tooths in nails to 27 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 2: not let this happen. 28 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Let's not forget that guys like yourself spend it all 29 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: that time in prison. You don't get socials. You don't 30 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: qualify for any of the benefits that anybody else does 31 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: just from being free. 32 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: We don't got no Social Security benefit if we weren't 33 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: given the opportunity to build oodle benefits. So and when 34 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: we apply for them, they tell us you don't have 35 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: nothing built up to receive these farms, you know. But 36 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: they seem to want to keep their eye closed to 37 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: the fact that, you know, their wrongs created a problem 38 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: for the guy that coming out. We have plans, that's 39 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: the reasons getting together and going to these capitals in 40 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: these states that don't have these conversation all and lobby 41 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: them for ourself and inform these people that is their 42 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: responsibility to address these issues. And you know, yup in 43 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: their process of uscain in a meaningful lifestyle back in society. 44 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: When it comes to trying to make some kind of 45 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: amends for these horrendous injustices. I'm just not sure how 46 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: anyone could be against it. So when this legislation comes 47 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: up for a vote, maybe keeping John's story fresh in 48 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: their minds and all of our minds will help. Here's 49 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: our original coverage right now. In the early morning hours 50 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, a seventy four year 51 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: old woman was asleep in her den when she awoke 52 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: to find a black man had broken in through the 53 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: window by the light of her television. He brutalized and 54 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: raped her for over an hour. After stealing seventy dollars, 55 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: The assailant pulled the telephone court out of the wall 56 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: and fled through the back door. When the victim finally 57 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: was able to contact the police, she was taken to 58 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: the hospital, but in her bloodied state, they decided against 59 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: performing a rape kit. However, other biological evidence was collected 60 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: from the scene. The victim helped that Georgia Bureau of 61 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Investigation develop a composite sketchet immediately. One of the investigators 62 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: said that it looked like a young man named John 63 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: Jerome White, who was a person of interest in a 64 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: string of burglaries. They arrested John and collected physical samples 65 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: from him as well as his driver's license. Even though 66 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: none of the physical evidence was a match for John, 67 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: the victim identified him at first in a photo array 68 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: and then again at a live lineup. And after all that, 69 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: how could anyone deny her gut wrench in courtroom identification? 70 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: So they didn't. This is rawful conviction. Welcome back to 71 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction today. We have a unique story, but not rare, 72 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: and it's just as tragic every time something like this happen. 73 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: Happens when a black man is misidentified by a white victim. 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: So there's this double victimization that happens. And it was 75 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: much easier for these things to happen before the dawn 76 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: of DNA testing. Not that they don't still happen to it, 77 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: because they do. But here to discuss the matter. As 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: the former executive director of the Georgia Andasis Project, she's 79 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: now with the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit. So, Amy Maxwell, 80 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: without further ado, thank you for joining us here again 81 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: on wrongful conviction. Thank you for having me and now 82 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: the man she represented, mister John Jerome White. You know 83 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for the reason why you're here joining us today, 84 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: but we are really honored to have you. 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. 86 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: You're very welcome. So, John, as we like to do here, 87 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of almost a tradition. Now, we'd 88 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: like to spend some time getting to know you a bit. 89 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: I think our audience get to know you a bit. 90 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: So can you tell us a little bit about what 91 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: your life was like prior to all this insanity? Uh? 92 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 2: Well, I'm from the Smile what we'd like to call 93 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: it the railroad town, Uh, in Manchester, Georgia. Uh, that's 94 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: in South Georgia. I'm the only boy's six girls. I 95 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: was raised by my grandmother. I'd love to do things 96 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: for my grandmother, you know, cut wood and working in 97 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: gardens and things of that nature. You know, growed up 98 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: and got a chance to experience you know, what we 99 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 2: like to call what cross town. That's you know, the 100 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: city of Manchester, you know, and I kind of got 101 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: away from my grandmama, you know, hold on me and 102 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: you know, making sure I was doing the right thing 103 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: and thing. And during the time all this occurred, you know, 104 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: I had started to do little miner burgers and things 105 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: of that nature. Here around Manchester convenience stores and merchant 106 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: stores like that. I was going in the wrong direction. 107 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: It was going totally against the way I was brought up, 108 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 2: you know, how it all happened to me, you know, 109 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: and the way things happened. I felt like it regards 110 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: way of putting that putting that roadblock in my path. 111 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: Well, that sounds like one way of taking response ability 112 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: for the actual wrong that you've admitted to doing in 113 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: the past. And I suppose thinking of your wrongful conviction 114 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: like that is a way to make peace with it. 115 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: But I mean, sometimes on this show we speak with 116 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: folks that are pulled completely out of obscurity to be 117 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: tried for a crime that had absolutely nothing to do 118 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: with But in your case, and this doesn't make it 119 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: right by any means, but you were known entity the 120 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: police because of those burglaries down in Manchester. But the 121 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: crime in question wasn't burglary. It was rape. And you 122 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: had never exhibited any sort of violence and certainly no 123 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: sexual violence before. So it's really a hell of a 124 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: label to get saddled with. 125 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't believe it. You know, I always been 126 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: the type that you know, I respect the women you know, 127 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: I was raised by my grandmother, you know, all alive 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: that you know, that's all I've been around, you know, women, 129 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: And it was kind of hard to believe that, you know, 130 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: I would be in charge with, you know, the whole 131 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: type of crime. 132 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: Nevertheless, the burglaries had you on the radar of the 133 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: local police when this terrible crime occurred. And it was 134 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: in the early morning hours of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, 135 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: when a man broke into the Manchester, Georgia home of 136 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: a seventy four year old woman. 137 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: Well, what we know is that she was in the din. 138 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: She was asleep on her couch, and she had her 139 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 3: sheets on the couch, and she did have the light 140 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: on in the kitchen, and she had her television on, 141 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 3: so that was the only line available to her. She 142 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: also wore prescription glasses and she didn't have her glasses 143 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: on and someone broke in through a window in the din. 144 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: He attacked her, He raped her, He brutalized her for 145 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: over an hour. Then he ripped out the telephone cords 146 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,559 Speaker 3: out of the wall and went out the back door. 147 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: He also stole seventy dollars in cash from her purse. 148 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: Now she eventually called the cops and was taken to 149 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: the hospital. But do I have this right that no 150 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: rape kit was collected. 151 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: No rape kit was collected. They said because she was 152 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: so damaged during the rape, The rape was so brutal, 153 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: and there was just so much blood, they made a 154 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: determination that they couldn't get any viable evidence. And you know, 155 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: you've got to remember back then, they were only able 156 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: to do blood typing. So I think that their thought 157 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: process may have been, there's so much of her blood, 158 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: you know, his blood type is going to just get 159 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: all mixed up in there. They may also have not 160 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 3: wanted to got to remember, this is a small town, 161 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 3: right They might have been concerned that she was already 162 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 3: so traumatized that they didn't want to do any more 163 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: of an examination. You know, she was seventy four years old, 164 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 3: and I can't even imagine how she was presenting to 165 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: the doctors. Obviously they should have done a sexual assault kit, 166 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: they certainly would today, but they did not. 167 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: And since there was no rape kit, there's no seminal evidence. 168 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: But there was other blood and biological evidence at the scene, 169 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: which we'll get into in a bit. But in nineteen 170 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: seventy nine, as Amy mentioned, all we had was soerrology, 171 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: which had its own limitations. DNA testing, of course, was 172 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: not available yet, and I can't imagine collecting a rape 173 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: kit would have been an easy thing to do with 174 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: this poor seventy four year old woman in the state 175 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: that she was in. But the fact that she did 176 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: somehow survive, she must have been some tough lady. So 177 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: what happened next in this investigation. 178 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: Well, I should point out that this is such a 179 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: small town that their local police didn't do the investigation. 180 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: They brought in the state police, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 181 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: And when they were collecting evidence, they collected the bed 182 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: sheet that was on the couch, and the bed sheet 183 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: had hairs. Now, I will say that at trial they 184 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 3: only thought there was one hair. It turned out there 185 00:09:53,520 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 3: were several hairs on that bed sheet, and they preserved that. Yeah, 186 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 3: I will say that at trial the hairs were discussed, 187 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: to use the parlance at the time, they were negroid hairs, 188 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 3: and that's pretty much all they could say about them. 189 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 3: They did a microscopic examination of them and they said 190 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: that they looked almost exactly alike, that they were almost 191 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 3: positive that they were from the same person. Of course, 192 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 3: what that is is a human eye is looking at 193 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: two hairs and their pubic hair, so they're very small hairs, right, 194 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: and saying, oh, yeah, they look alike, you know. And 195 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 3: back then that was good evidence, right, Not so much. 196 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: Now, yeah, definitely not. We did a whole episode, by 197 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: the way of Wrongful Conviction Junk Science that Josh Duben 198 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: hosted about hair microscopy, and we're going to link to 199 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: it in the episode bio. But to think that someone 200 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: could compare hairs from a suspect and a crime scene 201 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: just by looking and match them to the exclusion by 202 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: the way of all other potential suspects, every anybody else, 203 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: all other people on the whole planet, is absolutely bonkers. Now, 204 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: remember they used to do that all the damn time. Now, 205 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: they mentioned that these hairs were from a black man, 206 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: as the victim had already told them, But what about 207 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: this piece of skin that I read about? 208 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: Yes, so apparently when the man came in through the window, 209 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: he cut himself on his hand and there was literally 210 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: like a triangular piece of his palm that was also 211 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 3: recovered from the scene. 212 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: And it's unclear whether or not they did seriological testing 213 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: on that either. But we're going to come back to 214 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: the piece of skin in a bit. But at this 215 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: point they moved on to relying on cross racial identification. Now, 216 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: study after study has shown, these are studies of which 217 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: they used a control group that has not seen the crime, 218 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: that that control group tends to be more accurate than 219 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: victims or witnesses. So get this. Cross racial identification has 220 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: been proven to be less accurate than guessing. So if 221 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: you actually didn't even witness the crime and were shown 222 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: a lineup, you'd have a better chance of picking the 223 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: person just by guessing than someone who did witness the crime. 224 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: It's an amazing thing, but it's true. Look it up. 225 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: I encourage you. 226 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 3: So they do a composite sketch of her attacker that 227 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: she saw in the dark, the only light from the 228 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: kitchen and the television while she's being traumatized. Right, So 229 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: she does do a composite sketch, and there is a 230 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 3: GBI agent who is part of the investigation. He says, hey, 231 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 3: that looks a lot like John White. And then everything, 232 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 3: of course, is often running at that point. 233 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: So John, this wasn't a big town, so I'm sure 234 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: word traveled fast at that point, had you heard about 235 00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: what had happened? 236 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: We heard, you know, this particular lady had got raped. 237 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think much of it. I really didn't, 238 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: you know. And when all this occurred, they was suspect 239 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: me for doing those mint of burgers around town, and 240 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: come to find out that they were looking for me. 241 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: So I decided to just up and leave Manchester. You know, 242 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: I was at the age of nineteen then, and I 243 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 2: went to a little small town and the Corps Georgia, 244 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: where I had some people, you know, some cousins staying. 245 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: So this crime happened on August eleventh, and they finally 246 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: caught up with you into Court, Georgia and drove you 247 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: back to Meriweather County around September twenty first. 248 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 2: On the ride back, they kept on asking me questions 249 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: about this here particular crime involved in the seventy something 250 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: year old lady and I had a venera disease they 251 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 2: called goungria, And you know, being a little small addict 252 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: like I was, you know, I didn't answer the question directly. 253 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: You know. When they kept on asking me, I said, well, 254 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: if I did it, she got goungria. They took that 255 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: and I like to say they ran with it. When 256 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 2: they got me back to the county jail. They took 257 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: a house and apples ping of Prince a love s 258 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: an apple blood from me, and they took my driving 259 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: license and I'm a Social Security car and everything, and 260 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: you know, they locked me up. 261 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: So they took those samples in order to run tests 262 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: on all the physical evidence that they had tried to 263 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: match the hair. Like we already mentioned, they probably did 264 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: some seriological testing with the patcherskin in your blood. We 265 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: don't know that for sure, but that would seem like 266 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: it would have been the least thing they could have done. 267 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: And had any of it matched you, they would have 268 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: been shouting it from the rooftops. Now they already had 269 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: this composite sketch that they thought looked like you. They 270 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: had to catch up with you a few towns away, 271 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: and you were being held for the burglaries. 272 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: My grandma came to get me out the next day. Apple, 273 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: you know, had brought me back to Milweather County. That's 274 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: when she was on that I would be in charge with, 275 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: you know, Ray Rob reggravated so and murgery. 276 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: Curiously, she got that news before they had even taken 277 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: your driver's license to be viewed by the victim in 278 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: an alleged photo array. 279 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: I don't know if they took my driving license or 280 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: they took many pictures. They say they took a photo 281 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: array to her apartment, but I'm assuming they took my 282 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: driver license. 283 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: We don't know much about it because, of course, you know, 284 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 3: they didn't record a lot of information. They certainly didn't 285 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 3: record the photo array, and I don't believe we ever 286 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: found that photo array did with John. I don't think 287 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: we've ever seen those photos, so we don't know who 288 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: else was in the photo and how well they matched, 289 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 3: either the composite or John. 290 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: Now, maybe this composite sketch looked enough like you that 291 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: your likeness was already imprinted in her mind, So photo 292 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: array or not, she had been primed to pick you 293 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: with that come positive in mind. And it's also possible 294 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: that they only brought along your driver's license rather than 295 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: a number of other photos that favored your features. We 296 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: don't know, but now you had been chosen from this 297 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: alleged photo array, and things started going down how fast? 298 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: A few you know, weeks after they did all this 299 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: here they performed the line up it was just us 300 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: on the room and me standing about ten feet from her, 301 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: along with a few other guys. And I couldn't believe, 302 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: you know, it would tick with because they brought another 303 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: person up there of a place I had robbed, and 304 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: she didn't pick me out, but they brained it old 305 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: Lady nine, and she picked me out. Like I said, 306 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 2: I'm quite sure that any take now one of the 307 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: other guy pictures that was in that line up to her, 308 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: and I'm the only somebody she had seen recently on 309 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: a photo. 310 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: Again, we're not sure what happened at that alleged photo lineup, 311 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: as no documentation has ever been found, But I want 312 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: our audience to note that I witnessed misidentification is a 313 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: contributing factor in sixty nine percent of all known convictions, 314 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: and in this case, we have a cross racial mis identification. So, 315 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, in study after study, cross racial 316 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: identifications are actually less accurate than guessing. But what about 317 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: the robbery victim also white and that would have been 318 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: the correct identification. It's crazy, but okay, so cross racial 319 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: or not, she had already been primed to pick you 320 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: out of the lineup by seeing your driver's license, in 321 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: addition potentially to a composite sketch that may have favored 322 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: you or you know, pointed towards you. I mean, nineteen seventies, Georgia. 323 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: You were already known to police, and then an old 324 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: white lady who had been brutally attacked identified you. I 325 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: hate to say it, but I think your fate was 326 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: pretty much sealed. Did you have a court appointed or 327 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: a paid attorney? 328 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: They gave me a quarter pointed attorney. But my mom 329 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: and them, you know, they raised the money and they 330 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 2: had you know, Sampa Bishop. 331 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: And he's now a US representative, right. 332 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: He was a part of the legislature back you know, 333 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: when I was going to trial, they took me to trial. 334 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: You know, they picked a jeer which was mainly all white. 335 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: They presented the evidence. The finger pressed they said they 336 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 2: collected at the scene of the crime. They said all 337 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: of them were sponge, to the point that they couldn't 338 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: get no kind of identification off of them. They say 339 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: the blood test came back negative. I don't know what 340 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: they had tested. I don't know they tested the skin. 341 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: I don't know what it was. But the crime left 342 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: in buscating said the houseyble could be mine. I know 343 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: they brought up the pigmentation of a black person's hair 344 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: and they said it was all of it was. 345 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: Some which really this technician was testifying that the hair 346 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: was a black person's and you were also black, which 347 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: is just not that probative. And what was it that 348 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: they tested your blood against. 349 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 3: I don't really remember what it was they tested with 350 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 3: the blood, I have to be honest with you. But also, 351 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 3: you know we talked about the piece of skin, right 352 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 3: that there was the cut, and when they picked John 353 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 3: up five weeks later, he had a cut on his palm, 354 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 3: and so that was another. 355 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: Piece, right. But the item that they tested for blood, 356 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: which the skin, was more than likely the item it 357 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: excluded him. But I suppose none of this matters when 358 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: you have the word of a seventy year old white 359 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: lady who was a victim of a brutal assault. 360 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: They actually to peak me out in court why she 361 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: was on a fan. 362 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 3: The problem with eyewitness identification is it's unreliable, but it's 363 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: incredibly powerful in court. You have a now seventy five 364 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: year old woman who is so traumatized the er didn't 365 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: even want to do an examination of her. Get on 366 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: the stand and say that's the man that did that 367 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 3: to me. You know, the jury at that point is 368 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 3: done right if there's a few little things that they 369 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 3: can put together, like oh, that hair might be the same, 370 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 3: or oh when he had a cut too, that was enough. 371 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you combat that? Even pointing out 372 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: that she wore glasses, that it was dark in there. 373 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: It's debatable whether that helps or hurts your client. When 374 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: you have an emotionally charged moment like that, how are 375 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: you going to try to contradict her the victim? Right? John? 376 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: At that point, did you have any hope that the 377 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: jury might actually still get this right? 378 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: You know, me knowing that I didn't do it, I 379 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: didn't have no doubt in my mind that I was 380 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: going on. I was that young, and I was so 381 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: inexperienced that I thought I was going home. 382 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: Can you take us back to that awful moment when 383 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: they read the verdict. 384 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: That it broke down and started crying. You know, I 385 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: will convicted the rape, robbery, aggravated, the salt and two 386 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 2: council burgeries. And they asked me did I have anything 387 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: to say? I just said I didn't do it. When 388 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: they took me back to the hole and say, well, 389 00:20:52,880 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: I know, I broke down and started crying. I was 390 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 2: corresponding with a cousin of mind. You know. He told me, 391 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: you know, you know, God got his reasons for everything, 392 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. And he said it was 393 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: a reason behind it, you know for me, you know, 394 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: it was a reason behind and I thought, I just 395 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: thought that reason behind it, you know, I just accepted 396 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: it at God will, and I moved forward. I couldn't 397 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 2: go through that their time, all that time that they 398 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: gave me feeling some type of way, and I just 399 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: had to learn how to how to survive inside the contention. 400 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: I found what they call it jail house attorney, and 401 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 2: we tried, you know, by fuing ahabor Corpus against my 402 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: lawyer that he didn't represent me right. We had requested, 403 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: you know, from a transcript and all that everything that 404 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: pertained into my trial. But they, you know, the time 405 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: of mayor, wealla didn't send me anything but a transfer. 406 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: They said they didn't have nothing else to send me. 407 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: And we buy ourselves an assistant accounseling and they denied that. 408 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 2: So I pretty much lay down on it from that 409 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: point on. 410 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: So at that time, it was much easier to be 411 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: granted parole even with a sentence like yours, which was 412 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: life plus sixty years. And usually, let's face it, they're 413 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: not going to grant you parole without an admission of 414 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: guilt and a show of remorse, even if you didn't 415 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: commit the crime. That that's that's a detail gets washed away. 416 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: But it appears that they may have actually believed in 417 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: your innocence. 418 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, after I want to say, eleven years, I came 419 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: up a parole. They told me, in order to make 420 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: parole that I would have to do some type of 421 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 2: sex offlinal program. And I told the lady that, you know, 422 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: I didn't do it, mister White. Unless you'd get in 423 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: some sex offlinal program, you ain't gonna get out of jail. 424 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: So they sent me to Metro up here in Atlanta, George, 425 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: where they had the programs there. And my mamma came 426 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: up and she says, go on, get in this program 427 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 2: if it gonna help you get out, even you had 428 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 2: to tell a lie. And they told me to cry 429 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: till you for getting in the safe Defending program, which 430 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 2: you had to describe what to play during the crime. 431 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: And so I told him, man you know, I can't 432 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: do that. I say, I can't imagine what took play 433 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: doing this stair crime. You know, I couldn't make that 434 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: lie up. So I basically had just just gave it 435 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: up again, you know. And uh So one day I 436 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: came in from work and the warden called me to 437 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: his office at me, he aad me why I was 438 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 2: at his institution, and I told him that they had 439 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: something he there participate in the safe shphical program and 440 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: that I couldn't you know, participate in because I couldn't 441 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: describe the crime. So he's something on back to the 442 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: dormator and some strange things occurred there. Told me to 443 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 2: pack my stuff up, that I was going to Hospital 444 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 2: lie and Augusta, Georgia for a year proud I had 445 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: opposcopic survey then on my knee. So one of the 446 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: inmates that was coming in from work helping to notice 447 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: a piece of paper that had all the transfers on 448 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: and everything, and he told me that said, John, you 449 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: weren't going to Augusta Medical Hospital. Say you going to 450 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: constantly on Haldway House. And it totally shocked me that 451 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: they're all finna get out of prison. 452 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: That the par board cut you a brake or was 453 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: it the warden points of strings? I don't know, And 454 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: no one told you. 455 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: Nobody told them. 456 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Okay, that's weird. So you got paroled, I guess. And 457 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: now you were starting out on a tough road to 458 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: reacclimate into society. There are a lot of obstacles to 459 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: employment and getting IDs and things like that, and those 460 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: are some of the many reasons why recidivism rates can 461 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: be as high as they are in some places. Not 462 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: to mention that you turned to burglary in the past, 463 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: and so where and how did you start that journey? 464 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 2: When I first got out, I was up in Atlanta 465 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: in the halfway house. I parode out of there to 466 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: room and house. I got tired of the room and house, 467 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: and I moved to moved to manchouse. 468 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: Did you move back in with your mom? Your grandma? 469 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: My mom? My grandma had passed while I was incarcerated. 470 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: Sorry to hear that, But luckily you still had some family, 471 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: right Were your sisters around now? 472 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 2: Most of them had, they had married, they moved on. 473 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 2: It was most of just me and my mom and 474 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 2: my dad was still living at the time, and my niece, you. 475 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: Know, John got the opportunity to come out on parole, 476 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 3: but he came out as a sex offender, right, who 477 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: hires a sex offender? You know, it was a struggle 478 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: when he was out on parole. 479 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: So what did you do for work? And I understand 480 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: you eventually went back to prison. 481 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 2: When I was dying back down here, I was doing 482 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: odds and then work. And one day I was at 483 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: McDonald's and seeing this guy and he pulled his wallet 484 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: out and he had a lot of money in it, 485 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 2: and me and another guy follow him, and Robin, the 486 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: other guy got caught up some kind of way, and 487 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: he told you know what that appened, And I turned 488 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: myself in again and I revoked my parole and saw 489 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 2: me back. I talked with the DA. He gave me 490 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: ten years ran into what I already had, and that 491 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: he wouldn't have no kind of negative recommendation towards if 492 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 2: I was to come up with parole again. 493 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: Well, I can't say a lot of people are going 494 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: to have a ton of sympathy for you on that situation. 495 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: But it's like you said earlier about how you made 496 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: peace with your wrongful conviction. You kind of felt deserving 497 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: of it because of the wrong that you had done. 498 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: And I want to point out that in nabbing the 499 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: wrong guy for that ultra violent rape and robber all 500 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: those years ago, this did a really terrible disservice the 501 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: entire community, not least of which to the victim, because 502 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: the real perpetrator was still free. So now it's nineteen 503 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: ninety seven year back to serve out this new sentence 504 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: and your old one. And it's not until about four 505 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: years later when the amazing Amy Maxwell became the founding 506 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: executive director of the Georgia Innisces Project. Can you run 507 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: through how you all came upon John's case? 508 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 3: The Georgia nisis Project started in two thousand one. Obviously 509 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 3: we got cases coming to us fairly quickly. But as 510 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 3: we were working on the cases, I started thinking, well, 511 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 3: what about all those people who don't know that we 512 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: could look at the cases. What about those people who've 513 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 3: not heard that we exist? So in two thousand and four, 514 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 3: first of all, we tried to go through the prison 515 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 3: hierarchy and try to get notices posted in prison, and 516 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 3: they wouldn't do that. So what we did is we 517 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: went through the Department of Corrections website and found everybody 518 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 3: who was in prison for rape and sent them a letter. 519 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: We sent about twelve hundred letters and we got about 520 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty, so we got about ten percent 521 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 3: return on our letter. And John was actually one of them. 522 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 2: I didn't I really didn't even know what to write, 523 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: but I wrote it won a week or so late today, Aim, 524 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna responding. 525 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: We looked at his evidence and the hair evidence. They 526 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 3: only really talked about one hair that they compared, and 527 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 3: so we were under the impression from the crime lab 528 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 3: report and from the testimony that there was only the 529 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 3: one hair. But most importantly, we were trying to find 530 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: that piece of flesh. In fact, we called it the 531 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: piece of flesh case, right, because it was such an 532 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 3: unusual piece of evidence. You know, this was a straight 533 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 3: up If we could find this evidence, we would know 534 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 3: who the perpetrator was. So I had an intern that 535 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 3: went down to Meriwether County looking for that piece of flesh. 536 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: Right. 537 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: We just could not find it. We couldn't find it 538 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 3: at the GBI, we couldn't find it anywhere, and so 539 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: we just just kept on. It's hard people tell you 540 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 3: that the evidence doesn't exist. 541 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: Or they just haven't looked at all because either they 542 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: didn't care or they were instructed to ignore such requestions. 543 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 3: Well, there might be that. So finally we went in 544 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 3: person to the clerk's office and what they ended up 545 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 3: finding was not the piece of flesh, but there were 546 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: several of their hairs from the crime scene. Now, let 547 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 3: me just say that hair are they're good evidence. 548 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: If they're good evidence, right, if the hairs are pulled 549 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: out from the root, then a DNA profile can be developed, right, 550 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: if they. 551 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 3: Can give us information. But there's also I mean, there 552 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: could be other reasons hairs were there. There was another 553 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 3: Georgia case that involved hairs, and the theory was that 554 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 3: she did her wash at the laundromat and she might 555 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 3: have picked up some random hairs there, which, of course, 556 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: these are pubic hairs, right, Why are you picking up 557 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 3: pubic hairs at the laundry. So anyway, but we were 558 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 3: we were concerned. You know, if these hairs didn't match John, 559 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: that helped us, but it might not walk him out 560 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 3: of prison. So we you know, had to tell John, 561 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: we've got these hairs we're going to test on. But 562 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 3: so we sent those hairs for DNA testing and we 563 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 3: find out that the hairs don't match John, and we 564 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: all pile in the car to staff members and our intern, 565 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: Cliff Williams. Cliff had been working on the case almost 566 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 3: from the beginning. I can't where were you, John, I 567 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 3: can't even remember where you were. 568 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: Macon State Prison. 569 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 3: So it's like two hours away. We get there and 570 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 3: we're getting all we're putting all of our stuff in 571 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 3: the trunk because you know, you can't take anything into 572 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 3: the prison with you, and I get a call from 573 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 3: the GBI and they tell me that there's been a 574 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 3: CODIS match. And I'm standing in the parking lot going, 575 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 3: oh my gosh. We were just going down to tell 576 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 3: him we got the DNA but to hold on. And 577 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 3: I thought, oh my god, we're going to get to 578 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 3: go in and tell him he's coming home. And I said, 579 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: who didn't match? He goes, oh, it matched a man 580 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: named James Parum. And at that point my intern goes, 581 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 3: James Parham, I think he was a suspect in this case. 582 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: So he pulls out the box, you know, because we 583 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 3: of course carry John's White's box all the way to 584 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 3: the prison with us, you know, his file, and he's 585 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 3: going through the file and he pulls out the photo 586 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: of the live lineup, turns it over and James Parum 587 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 3: is actually in the lineup where she picks John White 588 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: instead of James Parum. So we don't even know what 589 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 3: to do with all this, right, So we get to 590 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: go in and tell John all of this information, and 591 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 3: I'm like John, and don't know how quickly you're coming home, 592 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 3: but you're coming home. 593 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking at the photo right now and we're 594 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: gonna link to it from the bio. I mean, oh 595 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: my god, Like John is in the number three spot 596 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: of course because he was the target. And James Parham 597 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: sure enough, is right there in number five right. 598 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: Oh, actually you know Edie institution now was there? Me 599 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: and it were roommates that I am. 600 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: A a one what Yeah, Oh my god, I'm rarely 601 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: at a loss for words, but that's insane. 602 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: It was a scrangy thing. He helped throughout at my 603 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: whole a journey because he was in the same room 604 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 2: up with me, and I ended up with his Bible 605 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: when I got out, it had the name on it. 606 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: I gave it back to it sister to get him. 607 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, Amy came down and told me about I 608 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 2: was getting out. And when they did come to get 609 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: me out, they came back. They rushed back there because 610 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: they didn't want no media down at the institution. They 611 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: rushed me in, wanted to know it was anybody come 612 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: get me. And they went downtown and bought me some 613 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: clothes and made sure I was dressed. And when my 614 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 2: mom and them came to get me, and they they 615 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: shook me on the way as quick as they can 616 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 2: get me away from there. 617 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: So, Amy, what were the machinations that you had to 618 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: go through to finish the job and get him home? 619 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: Well, it was so quick. So you know, we get 620 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 3: all the information, but so does the district attorney. And 621 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: so of course when the district's attorney, and at that 622 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 3: time it was Pete Scandalacus, who is now the head 623 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 3: of the Prosecuting Attorney's Council here in Georgia, and he 624 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 3: saw what we saw. And of course I'm on the 625 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: phone with him on the way back from the and 626 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 3: I'm like, Pete, they got a codus match, what are 627 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 3: you gonna do? And he contacted the prison and honestly, 628 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 3: John John's family got the notice to come pick him up. 629 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 3: But literally four days later his folks are on the 630 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 3: way down to Oglethorpe, Georgia to pick him up. 631 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: So John was hum So John, what was your first meal? 632 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: Where did you go? What did you what did you do? 633 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: It was like a blur. It was like a blur. 634 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 2: I can't remember too much of the only thing I 635 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: can remember looking back, when we passed the prills and 636 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: going out, I think I went to sleep. I think 637 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: I went to sleep because somebody were happening. We went 638 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 2: by some my sister house and then we went straight 639 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 2: to Atlanta. But press conferences and sayings of that nature. 640 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: And I had me some fride grade tomatoes, had some 641 00:33:53,480 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: some ochre. I've had been warnings. And I remember that 642 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: night that I got up and I walked. I walked 643 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: up to a restaurant and this guy a chance just 644 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: look up at the sky, you know, and look at 645 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 2: the stalls and things, and just it's well, I could 646 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 2: just see beyond that, you know, I could get a 647 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: chance to see the sky, you know, in the stall 648 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: and in the moon. Some of you didn't very often. 649 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 2: You didn't get to see too much of why you 650 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 2: was any pen attention. 651 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: So James Parham played guilty who since to twenty years 652 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: in prison on this rape. Right, and then in two 653 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, the Georgia legislature authorized the payment of 654 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars in compensation to Hugh. Now, no 655 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: amount of money would ever be enough, and that's not 656 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: even I mean, that's that number is tiny compared to 657 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: what it should be. 658 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, Georgia don't have a compensation law. 659 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: And I got five hundred thousand dollars a conversation with 660 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 2: prescriptions that I gotta maintain some type of employment. I 661 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: got submit to drug tests and every so often I 662 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 2: can't catch another fella there though, I'll lose my conversation. 663 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: I believe they put those stipulations in it because they 664 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: don't want to get it, They don't want to give 665 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: me any money, and that it was done for me 666 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: to fail. You know, we asked for a million and something, 667 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 2: they got it down to seven and fifty thousand. It 668 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: passed one body of our legislature, then it went to 669 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: the other body of our legislation and they rejected it. 670 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 2: They revised it, and they agreed to all these stipulations. 671 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's just crazy to me that anybody 672 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: could look at someone in your shoes and not have 673 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: an instinct to immediately want to help, but rather their 674 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: first instinct is I'm gonna fight this. I'm gonna fight 675 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: to not write this wrong, to keep this wrong as 676 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: wrong as it could be. Is there anything our audience 677 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: can do for you, you. 678 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 2: Know, right now? Give them this opportunity to say what 679 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 2: I'm about to say, I never you know, go vote. 680 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Get these unsimpensated people that 681 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: that's a part of our legislators wave up there so 682 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: we can't get some of the bill path that would 683 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: that a and us getting you know, the support we 684 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: need not only me, but other people that's in then 685 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 2: you know, the similar situations yea, you know, I you know, 686 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna look out for me, but that's what we need. 687 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: We need voters, We need those people that's in office 688 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 2: that that's that's voting against this. It change to be removed. 689 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: I hope our audience really takes those words to heart. 690 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: And what about you, Amy, any call to action for 691 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: our audience, Well. 692 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 3: I think folks can obviously follow the Georgia Innocence Project, 693 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 3: particularly about the legislation, but there is also an ex 694 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 3: Hognery fund, so if folks wanted to donate to the 695 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 3: Georgia Edocence Project, they could donate and specify that it's 696 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 3: for the Exignery Fund. That would be great. 697 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 1: Okay, So we'll have those action steps linked in the bio, 698 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 1: which brings us to my favorite part of the show. 699 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: It's called, of course, closing arguments, and this is the 700 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: part of the show where I thank you both for 701 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: being here and just sharing this unbelievable, horrible story. And 702 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: with that, I'm going to kick back in my chair, 703 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, and close 704 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: my eyes and just listen for anything else you want 705 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: to share with me and our amazing audience. 706 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 3: I would highly recommend people google the live lineup photo 707 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 3: in John's case. When you get a chance to look 708 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: at the live lineup, you're going to see how different 709 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 3: James Parham looked from everybody else in that lineup. And 710 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 3: it just goes to show how incredibly difficult it is 711 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 3: to deal with eyewitness identification. I mean, the actual perpetrator 712 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,959 Speaker 3: was there live in front of her, and she still 713 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 3: picked the wrong man. So I think that we all 714 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 3: need to be very cautious because, as we said earlier, 715 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 3: when the eyewindness takes the standard trial and says that's 716 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 3: the person. It is incredibly powerful, but we need to 717 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 3: be very careful. The other thing is how really hard 718 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 3: it is to come out of prison. You know, even 719 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 3: though he comes out of prison an innocent man, prison 720 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 3: does a number on you. Prison physically changes you, you 721 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 3: and mentally for sure changes you. And there's really no 722 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 3: support other than the people who rally around him. So, 723 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 3: you know, we've got to got to do better because 724 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 3: people are going to come out of prison and we 725 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: want them to be able to succeed or they're going 726 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 3: to What's going to happen is their struggle and they 727 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 3: end up committing a crime because they're struggling. 728 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 2: I'm there, I'm thankful. I'm thank buy, you know. I 729 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 2: love and her determination to start to answer the project. 730 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 2: My experience being incost rated, it's like PGSD soldiers. I 731 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 2: don't have too much trust for nobody. I'm pretty much 732 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 2: a loner. I don't you know. I don't deal with 733 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 2: a whole lot of people. It's hard. It's hard, and 734 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: I just want the government to step up to the 735 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 2: plate and establish our social security benefits, our medical benefits 736 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: and make these things are possible, so we can you know, 737 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 2: at least live, you know, when we do get sick 738 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: or something like that, that we can go see a doctor. 739 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 2: We constantly being denied either easier benefit because we were 740 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 2: wrongly convicted. We weren't given an opportunity to build up 741 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 2: to you know, to have no kind of social security 742 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 2: in our benefits built up, it would take them from us, 743 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 2: so it still be given back to us. That's what 744 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: I want. 745 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 746 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Kleibern, and Kevin Wardis, 747 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 748 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 749 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 750 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 751 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 752 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both 753 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is 754 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 755 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one