WEBVTT - Brad Stone Talks Amazon Unbound on Twitter Spaces: Businessweek 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carole Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanebeck. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.760 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all furnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.600 analyst in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.200 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.560 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Hello everyone, my name is 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.120 Joel Webber and I'm the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.840 I'm excited to host our leaders Behind the Story conversation, 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.000 this time with my colleague Brad Stone, the author of 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.239 the forthcoming book Amazon Unbound, which we excerpted in this 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.120 week's cover story. The conversation we're about to have it's 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:48.720 going to make you want to pre order a copy, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.240 so go get that done asap. Brad, thanks for joining. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.360 I started working on this book in um late two 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.520 thousand sev and so two thousand eighteen comes around suddenly 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.240 h Q two is launched and amazons in the middle 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.280 of this very polarizing process to find a second headquarters, 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.480 which kind of ends in disaster in New York City 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.080 in early two thousand nineteen, at the same time that 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.119 Jeff and Mackenzie announced their divorce on Twitter, and then 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.360 the National Enquirer comes out with this explosive revelation about 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.399 Jeff's personal life, which leads to all sorts of craziness. 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.839 So in the as I'm writing, as I'm researching this book, 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.320 you know, they're they're like these earthquakes, and what I 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.480 thought was a tame little business book suddenly has to 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:39.400 veer into the territory of explicit photographs and cyber espionage 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.399 and you know, per you know, alleged Trump interference in uh, 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.440 you know, in the Jedi contract, and and the question 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.480 of whether the National Choir story was politically motivated. So 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.560 the whole thing was this hall of mirrors, can of 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.440 worms that I had to navigate, and there you were 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.120 suddenly writing about gossip rags, and so let's talk about that, like, 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.720 because the first, the first thing that really said all 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.400 of this in motion was the announcement of their separation. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.720 And so I'm just curious, like knowing what you know 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:12.080 about the basis is in Amazon, Like what did you 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.239 first think when you when you saw that and then 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.520 when the news that begin to trickle out happened? What 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.960 went through your head? As somebody who watches um Amazon closely, 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:24.519 I think my reaction was the same as pretty much 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:28.680 every other Amazon um executive or anyone close to the 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:33.400 company or who observes it, which is just here surprise, shock, 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.720 you know, because well there it's a you know, it's 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.880 a very private family. So obviously, um, you know, you 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.000 don't know what's happening inside any family or any marriage. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:47.600 But you know, Jeff had had basically made the story 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.560 of his marriage part of his public persona, you know it, 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.720 talked about it a lot um um, And so it's 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.320 just a surprise. He's also so so disciplined, so careful, 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.600 and you know the fact that his private life had 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:06.079 become fodder for you know, this past its prime tabloid magazine. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.760 It was just a shock on a number of different levels. Um, 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.000 you know that had happened at all, and that he 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.080 allowed it to happen and had you know, when you 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:17.800 look back on it, and some of this is in 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.280 the Business Week excerpt. You know, he he conducted that 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.560 relationship really out in the open throughout two eighteen. Um. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.600 You know, him and Lauren went to um, you know, 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.200 we're at Blue Origin launches together. He brought her to 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.640 the Seattle Amazon headquarters to the see the Washington Post 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:38.960 printing presses. Um. In fact, it was it was really 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.880 conducting it as if it wasn't a secret. Um, you know, 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.600 which is which is fine, Um, except that I think 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.400 he underestimated or perhaps didn't care about the extent to 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.520 which he had become such a big public figure and 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.560 the extent to which you know, tabloid elements would be 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.520 interested in his life. And it's then kind of metastasized 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:04.840 from there. So let's drop, um, everyone into the story 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:09.160 with a fantastic lead which goes, raise your hand if 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.800 you think you've had a harder week than I've had. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.400 And this is Bezos and Amazon's headquarters talking to to 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:22.960 whom put And that's interesting because you know, this is 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.800 in a book about Amazon, right and and it is 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.400 fundamentally an Amazon story. Even though this is something that 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:35.080 happens in Jeff's life. It rocks Amazon. Everyone is surprised, um, 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.000 you know, at at at this at this crisis that 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.839 has enveloped their boss. He comes into this s team 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.839 meeting in early two thousand nineteen and he he's sort 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.440 of apology. He comes close to apologizing for it. Um. 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.720 He he reassures everyone that he's, you know, had adult 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.320 conversations with Mackenzie, that she's fine, the kids are fine. 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.000 So thanks for being focused on the business. But at 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:00.960 the same time, and this leads to a little bit 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.320 of a disillusionment within the company. They recognize it within 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.240 retrospect that something some strange behaviors were explainable now. So, 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.000 for example, Amazon had requested helipads be part of its 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.800 second headquarter offices in in Queens Long Island City and 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.160 Northern Virginia. And if you remember, it was a really 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.560 polarizing request in in New York, and the New York 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:26.240 Post had it on its cover, and it's starting to 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.680 stir up some of the animosity towards Amazon's project. And 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.880 you know, later we learned that not only is Laurence 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.760 Sanchez a helicopter pilot, but Jeff has taken flying lessons himself, 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.159 and they've bought his and hers Bell's textron helicopters um. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.440 And then similarly, Amazon was floating a plan, and this 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:46.920 is in the Business Week story, to create a second 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:51.520 share of Amazon stock, a second class with lower voting rights, 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:57.040 which Amazon disputes this characterization. Yeah, I just think in 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.720 context of this being ultimately your business story, I thought 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.920 that that the dual class thing was a really important 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.040 thing because keep in mind, Amazon went public before the 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.760 rest of the tech companies, the facebooks of the world 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.720 had this dual class structure. So so what does that 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.960 what does that represent for for you know, those of 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.200 us who are making sense of Amazon, right and and 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.800 important to note that Amazon never did this. It it 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.280 pitched this this dual class plan to some of its 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.080 largest institutional shareholders, and they were perplexed, like, why would 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.159 you do this? You know, definitely not. They don't want 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.680 to do anything that might potentially dis dilute their influence 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.640 on the company. And and then later they when the 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.320 divorce tweet was announced, a lot of people at least 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.520 interpreted it as as some exploration that Jeff was was 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.680 doing to see if in the divorce settlement he might 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.200 retain some of his voting power over the company, and 0:06:55.240 --> 0:07:00.480 in fact, they ultimately resolved that because Mackenzie's shares, Jeff, 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:04.320 Jeff retained voting influence over those shares. But as we've seen, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.680 and she's getting rid of those shares, she's she's giving 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.960 away a lot of her money very quickly. And when 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.440 the shares pass on, I would imagine their voting rights 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.000 go to their new owners. So you know, again, Amazon 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.920 dispute that interpretation. But a lot of people inside and 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.840 outside the company we're looking at these things and wondering, 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.360 and I think, with some with some good reason, whether 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.760 Jeff's personal life had begun to really impact his stewardship 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.280 of the company. So, if you're just joining us, my 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.880 name is Joel Webber and the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.640 I'm joined by Brad stone Um, the author of the 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.520 new book Amazon on Bound, in my colleague here at Bloomberg. 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.480 We excripted his book this week with the untold story 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.280 of how Jeff Bezos beat the tabloids. If you haven't 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.280 read it yet, you can go to Bloomberg dot com 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.760 slash business Week and get that excerpt Um, and please 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.960 remember the pre order Brad's book. Brad, there's so many 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.880 little nuggets in actually substantial news. In this excerpt, why 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:05.400 don't you give us another one. We've talked about the 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.640 dual class thing. What was another um thing that people 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:13.880 will find surprising? Okay, I gotta remember, Um, here's a 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.200 good one. Here's a good one. Um. And I dropped 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.640 this in at the very end. You know, over the years, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.920 there has been this funny little search, uh to find 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.320 the Bezos boat, Like the richest man in the world, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.880 does he have a luxury yacht somewhere? And about two 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.880 years ago, um, there was a false report that, in 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.240 fact he had bought this kind of four million dollar 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.559 motor yacht, and they denied that that was true. And 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.280 you know, I was wondering it as well, because him 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.800 and Lauren were showing up on Barry Dealer's yacht and 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.360 David Geffen's yacht. And in fact, um, I I at 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.360 the end of my search, I found a super yacht. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.240 Um sailing a sailing a three mass schooner that's being 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:59.199 h constructed by the Dutch company Ocean Co. That's under construction. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.040 Now you know that the Jeff is building. And not 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.280 only is it this magnificent yeah, but because it's a 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.880 sailing yacht, you can't land helicopters on the deck because 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.720 the mass. And so they're building and I did not 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.480 know this term. Um, they're building a support yacht with 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.680 the helipad so they could land the new helicopters on 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.080 the new near the new yacht. So anyway, that that 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.160 was another delicious little tidbit that's in the story. Yeah, 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.120 and these the companies that build these yet obviously hyper 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.240 hyper secretive. So you have to like, you know, basically, 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.240 like you know, go trolling through whatever local Facebook photos 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.679 you can find of of things under construction. And you 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:42.280 found one, right, that's right there, There was a there 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.640 there is a sailing a yacht community on Facebook, and 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:48.920 I was looking at it and and there was a 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.679 photo of an unfinished hole and it was the code 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.480 name was something like Y seven, And and I looked 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.240 on Ocean Coast site and there was a Y. See 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.600 I might be getting the number wrong for memory, and 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.040 it wasn't. It didn't say who the owner was. And 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.040 that was one of the bread crumbs along the way 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.800 that made me think, you know, um, there are only 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:09.840 a few people in the world that might build a 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:15.120 yacht of the size and scale. Okay, so the real 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.520 juicy part of this story is the stuff that gets 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:23.560 into uh Jeff Bezos, UM Laurence Sanchez, their relationship and 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:27.760 sort of the drama that ensues. So why don't we 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.120 talk about that, because once this thing gets out in 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.720 the open um. You know, most of us UH discovered 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.520 everything through this medium post that was a news event, 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.600 but in and of itself, right, um, and what you 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.880 basically helped us piece together was the untold story that 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.760 led to that moment. So rewind the clock a little 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.360 bit and and talk to us about how National Enquire 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.080 and everything else fits together into this the drama that 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:00.280 unfolded between Jeff Bezos and and am I Right, it's 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.040 such a long tangled story, UM, So let me try 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:07.200 to boil it down. And there are some coincidences that 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.480 um I concluded are just coincidences. But you know, I 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.200 sort of a frank in the book that like, this 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.200 is is kind of my it's such a peculiar saga 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.440 that based on the evidence that we have, now this 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.000 is is what transpired. And I'll go quickly, but essentially, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.600 in the fall of two eighteen, Dylan Howard, the the editor, 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.120 the chief content officer of AMI, editor of National inquiry. 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.120 It gets a little upset at the at the Washington 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.160 Post pursuit of the inquires catch and kill reporting on 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.679 behalf of Donald Trump, and the authorizes a look into 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.760 the life of Jeff Bezos, and a memo goes out 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.600 to inquire reporters to dig up dirt on the world's 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.679 richest man. And there's no other information, nothing about an 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.040 affair and nothing like that, and all this is now 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:56.040 in the voluminous court filings. Then, coincidentally, Laurence Sanchez's brother, 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.600 Michael Sanchez, approaches the paper, the tabloid paper, with this 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:05.600 mysterious scoop that he knows of a wealthy tech billionaire 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.400 who's dating a B list actress. Long story short, Michael 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.720 is basically informing on on his sister in her new relationship, 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.360 and over the next couple of months provides the Inquirer um, 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.640 not with any not with um. This is a family 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.000 Twitter space, so I'm not going to get too explicit, 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.520 but you know, not with any explicit photos, but with 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:28.680 a lot of the text messages and other photos that 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.959 shows that show his sister is having an affair with 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:37.480 Jeff Bezos. Um. You know, the Inquirer publishes well, first, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.720 you know, Jeff and Mackenzie get wind of this report. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.960 They announced their divorce on on Twitter UM. And then 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:50.640 there's a battle between UM, Jeff's camp and the inquirer UM. Jeff, 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:55.040 Jeff's security consultant, Gavin de Becker begins to insinuate that 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:59.120 there were political motives, UM and sort of unexplained mysteries 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.960 behind the story. It wasn't an unreasonable conclusion because you know, 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.640 Michael Sanchez is a peculiar guy. He's he's a Republican, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:11.000 he's overtly conservative on Twitter, He's got relationships with Trump 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.160 World figures. And of course am I did as well. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.559 They were the news organization that you know, did the 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.880 catch and kill um, you know, on on stories about 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.520 Donald Trump's infidelity. Anyway, the media, Jeff publishes the Medium 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.920 post accusing am I of extorting him and really insinuates that, 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:34.040 you know, there were political um motivations and that maybe 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.640 even the Saudi government was involved, and of course the 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.760 Saudis had reason to have enmities against the Washington Post 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.200 as well. And in the Medium report, Jeff kind of 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.280 wraps himself up in the mantle of the Post and 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.439 says he's proud of the work. And you know, and 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.840 I don't know, I don't think it was deliberate misdirection. 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.280 That there might there might have been good reasons to 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.679 suspect that this was a politically planted story, But in 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.000 the end, all the evidence, the currently available evidence, suggests 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.400 us that it was a much simpler story. Um, And 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.439 you know that that this was a story ultimately of 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.560 you know, a brother who maybe in his own peculiar way, 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.640 was trying to protect his sister but but nevertheless ended 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.360 up creating more of a problem for him and and 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.520 for his sister and enter her new partner. Um, you know, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.800 is it possible one day we'll find that there was 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.000 a hidden another hidden level of secrecy and conspiracy to 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.440 the whole thing. It certainly is. But I went as 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.480 far and deep into it as I would ever want 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.320 to go, or I think anyone else have gone has gone, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.920 and and and really the available evidence does suggest that, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.840 you know, the Saudis they might have hacked Jeff's phone. 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.440 I I don't know, but there's certainly no evidence and 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.600 it would contradict the available evidence, you know, if in 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.280 fact they were a kind of secret source all along. Okay, 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.920 So There's another character that we haven't mentioned yet, Gavin 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.000 de Beeker. And this is um sort of Jeff Bezos 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.800 is uh sort of private bulldog. UM who you know, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:05.800 you would just expect that the richest man in the 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.280 world would have somebody like this basically at his beck end. Call, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:13.440 what did Gavin de Becker break loose? Yeah? He he's 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.160 he's you know, he's an accomplished investigator, has got an 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.720 amazingly successful security company. He's an author. Um. He he 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.560 has a long relationship with with the Bezos family. He 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.440 starts Jeff basically gives him, you know, endless resources to 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.840 go pursue the truth. He's talking to Michael Sanchez and 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.840 you know pretty much recognizes pretty quickly that you know, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.440 saying that Michael Sanchez had played some role in in 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.800 at least tipping off the National Enquirer. And he also suspects, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.320 you know, reasonably that you know, that there might have 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.720 been political motives because not only is Michael this outspoken conservative, 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.920 but because the Trump world had so much animosity towards 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.640 the Washington Post and the Jeff and Amazon, uh you 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.120 know at the time. Um, and so you know, he 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.560 starts writing articles in the in The Daily Beast or 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.520 giving interviews that do suggest that this is part of 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:16.280 a of a grand conspiracy. Um. You know, it's um. 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.680 You know, he he does identify Michael Sanchez as being 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.600 the primary source, but he also really does lay a 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:23.720 lot of the groundwork for you know, some of the 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.200 confusion that came out as a result of it. I 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.240 don't I don't necessarily think that any of that was 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:34.280 done as a an overt pr strategy to obfuscate, but 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.880 it did obfuscate. If most people are going to reflect 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.760 in this peculiar bit of history and the in the 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.240 in the life of the world's wealthiest person, they're gonna say, well, 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.520 didn't the Saudis have something to do with that? Was 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.800 Trump responsible? Wasn't there a brother? And a lot of 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.040 that is because of Jeff's medium medium post and Gavin 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.360 de Becker's um stories in The Daily Beast, And you know, 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:01.640 in the end, I concluded it wasn't as complicated as that. Um. 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:03.600 It was also I thought one of the most interesting 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.680 thing about this was sort of once Bezo sort of 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.120 let Um the Becker sort of like loose in terms 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:12.920 of trying to to plush out the truth, right unlimited 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:17.000 resources to do so. Um, he actually did engage with 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.159 with Michael Sanchez and and immediately just had like a 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.320 sniff of something that something was a little off, and 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.040 that ultimately sort of culminates with this the Catton mouse 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:32.040 game with with the photos of them, um, which is 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.320 in a pretty interesting place. So why don't we go 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:40.120 ahead and cheer that? Oh boy, okay, what happened? What happened? Right? 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.040 I I I can't remember if Twitter spaces has rated 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:49.920 r PG thirteen, but keep it okay. So the lynch 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.720 pin of this whole thing, and again one of these 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.439 little avenues that you know, when you're writing about a 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.800 big tech company, you don't expect to be going down. 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:03.760 But what did the wire ever have what will colloquially 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.040 refer to as the dick pick? That? That's it? Right? 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.720 Did they ever have it? And it's a it was 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:12.960 it was part of the letter that was viewed as 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.000 extortive that Jeff wrote about in his medium post. You know, 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.640 they referred to it in the story. You know, did 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.560 it exist? Did the paper have it? And as I 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:25.679 you know, and this is actually something that the Southern 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.080 District of New York and the FBI as they tried 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.920 to unravel all this and figure out, you know, should 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.760 there be charges. That's something they looked at. And ultimately, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.359 what I what I AM told Michael Sanchez told them 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.120 is that the inquirer was was bugging them for they 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.800 wanted Sanchez to give it to them. He was hemming 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.080 and hang and resisting, and finally he said, Okay, I'll 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.119 show it to you, and he went to a meeting 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.520 in in uh sorry, he was in l A and 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:58.119 the enquired editors were face timing with them in uh 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.840 In from New York, and he showed owed them the 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:05.639 dick pick. Except he didn't and this is this is 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.760 uh in the story. He did he what he showed them, 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.920 it's unclear if he ever had he really had the 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.639 photograph in question. What he showed them was a photograph 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.199 that he had downloaded from an escort website, and he 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.960 passed it off as an authentic item. And then they 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.880 believed they had it um and didn't understand that they 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.879 were you know, that it was sort of another level 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.280 of of deceat let's call it deception from their source. 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.199 Uh yeah, you just never expect to go there as 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.480 a tech reporter, right, did I break Did I did 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.280 I break any Twitter rules with that district? We'll find 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:42.760 out later. I think we'll find out later. But but 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.400 I think he did a good job, uh speaking good 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.200 good jobs, Brad. Like I want to kind of bring 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.919 this back home to a business story, like ultimately, like 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.800 this is um, you know, one of the most successful 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.920 business people of all time, and obviously this story took 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.199 him places that he probably never expected to go. But 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:05.960 can we bring this back to Amazon and also what 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.520 Jeff Bezos has accomplished his business, Like what insights did 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.280 you learn from from reporting on this particular part of 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.520 the story that relates to how Amazon has come to 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:23.240 you know, just dominate um um everything right. Well, you 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.240 know it's it's actually something that I had sort of 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:29.879 understood and maybe even experienced a little bit um myself. 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.520 If if you remember after the Everything story came out, um, 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.440 you know, Jeff and Mackenzie at the time, Um, well, 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.919 Mackenzie and a bunch of other Amazon executives left me 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.960 one star reviews, you remember, because they didn't they didn't 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.280 love the book and it was such a unique and 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:50.199 interesting way to object to a piece of journalism. And 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.439 then you fast forward to the medium posts, and of 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.200 course they're upset at the National enquir and he does 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.520 this bold, unusual thing of publishing their their emails in 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:05.159 their negotiation. And it so it underscored for me that 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.200 kind of Bezos mindset, which is he sort of he'll 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.520 he'll throw a playbook out the window, and he'll come 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.800 up with something totally new, totally unique, something that kind 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.879 of shakes the ground under his, at least perceived adversaries. 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.040 And they do that with products too, right, He's he 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.840 never wants to launch a me too product. If they're 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.080 going to do a smart watch, they're going to do 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.760 something totally unique. You know. The new Amazon smart watch, 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.440 which hasn't done all that well. Um, records your moods 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.320 and and gives you and gives you feedback on on 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.120 your emotions and how you're behaving. Right, there's always something different. 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.879 And so this whole saga with the National Enquirer, you know, 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:52.320 is is the base is the Bezos operating philosophy laid there. 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.879 You know, he's going to do something bold and unexpected. 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.600 Um and usually, as we say on the cover of 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:02.480 Business Week this week, Jeff wins, right, I mean that's 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.320 he comes out on top, and now he's retiring as 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:10.160 CEO later this year at the helm of um I've 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.800 lost track a one point seven trillion dollar company, and 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.240 his fortune has succeeded two d billions. So lots of 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:20.160 room for critique, lots of ways in which regulators should 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.359 look at Amazon, but you look at you know, his 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.679 moves over the past twenty five years, and you know 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.800 you have to you have to admire or at least 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.280 be a little odd by the way in which he 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:36.600 has built his empire. Okay, what other elements are you 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.159 excited for people to read about in the book which 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.840 comes out? Win? And I pre ordered this online? Yeah, 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:49.000 I'm Joel. I hope you've pre ordered one copy for Yeah, 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.199 I know. Can I pre order an autographed to that? 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.280 How does that work? But when did it come out? 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.200 And what else are you excited for people to read? Sure? 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.600 So May eleven, So next Tuesday, I'm available at your 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:07.439 friendly neighborhood bookstore or retailer in addition to being for 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:11.440