WEBVTT - Substance Use Disorders and Addiction (with Dax Shepard and Mayor Muriel Bowser) 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:10.480 Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact a 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.520 podcast about why public health matters even when we're not 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.440 in a pandemic. Today, we're talking about substance abuse, disorders, 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.959 and addiction. When we think about a public health crisis, 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.279 we often think about a contagious disease like COVID nineteen. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.639 But substance use disorders and addiction are another epidemic, yes, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.240 an epidemic in our country right now. This epidemic is 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.519 fueled in part by the over prescription of opioids, and 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.240 it's made worse by the stigma that has too often 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:40.960 kept us from talking about and treating. This is what 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.880 it is, a health issue like any other. The good 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.840 news is, over the last few years, the conversation around 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.160 addiction in America has started to change. More and more 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.080 people are speaking out about their own experiences, including celebrities, 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.959 and elected leaders are taking on the issue in new 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:02.040 ways rooted in public health. All of this is particularly 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.000 urgent right now. Overdoses and overdose deaths have risen during 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.039 the pandemic. According to the Center for Disease Control, thirteen 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.759 percent of Americans say they've started or increased substance use, 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.600 including alcohol in order to cope with the stress of 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:21.160 COVID nineteen, and for people in recovery from substant use disorders, 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.760 isolation has made it harder to get the support they need. Today, 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.080 I'm talking with two people with unique perspectives on these issues. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.480 We'll hear from Dak Shepherd, an actor who is incredibly 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:35.120 candid and pointing about his own addiction and recovery, including 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:39.240 on his own podcast, Armchair Expert. But first I'm talking 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:44.040 with Washington, d C Mayor Muriel Bowser. D C was 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:46.240 once a place that I called home, and it's so 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.440 much more than our nation's capital. Nearly a million people 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:51.520 live in the metropolitan area, and it's one of the 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.400 most diverse cities in the United States. And let me 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.600 just say, it's long pastime for d C statehood. That's 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.720 a topic deserving its own podcast, but it's also one 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.640 that matters for public health. To just give one example 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.760 particularly relevant to today's topic, because DC isn't in its 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.120 own state. Years ago, Republicans and Congress were able to 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.440 block d C from using its own non federal funding 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.360 for needle exchange programs. Thankfully that ban was reversed, but 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.000 it shouldn't have been possible, and it wouldn't have been 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.840 had DC been a state. Leading the city today is 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.959 Mayor Muriel Bowser, who has stayed focused on the very 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.640 real challenges posed by substance abuse disorders and addiction, even 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.119 while managing many other crises of this last year. She's 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.560 committed to improving access to mental health services like Oxford Houses, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.360 community based and run sober living environments, and to Narcan, 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.480 a life saving antidote to opioid overdoses. And as you're 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.520 about to hear, that's just the beginning. I was so 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.920 happy to have Mayor Bowser on the podcast and I 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.480 started our conversation by asking her what it's been like 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:58.360 to address substance use disorders in DC, also navigating the 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.040 COVID nineteen pandemic. What does the opioid epidemic look like 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.440 in d C. Well, it doesn't look like the national 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.720 picture that we have of the opioid epidemic. In fact, 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.400 people who are suffering and dying from opioid addiction in 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:22.320 DC are usually African American men in their fifties, were older, 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.600 and there are folks that have been living with substance 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:31.720 addiction for sometimes decades. And what we see is these 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:36.440 very potent street mixtures of drugs that are causing overdose 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.640 and death in our city. Were you aware of the 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:45.240 extent of the crisis when you became mayor or was 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.480 this an issue you really had to confront more head 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.640 on once you took office. Absolutely, it was an issue 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.880 that we had to confront when we saw these very 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:01.920 potent fentel mixes that emerged seemed to me almost overnight 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.520 on the streets, and we had been seeing the kind 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:11.640 of over prescribing of aipiens in how that also has 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.160 mixed with the street trade and the spencinal mixtures that 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.320 are killing people in our city. In last year, during 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.760 the pandemic, we had a pretty significant number of people 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:27.360 who succumbed to these overdoses. For so long, we've treated 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.000 addiction as a matter for the criminal justice system, and 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.120 yet we really know the addiction is a public and 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:38.200 a patient health crisis. How do you help shift the 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.600 public's understanding of what addiction is and also how they 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:45.359 can hopefully be part of helping support people who might 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.200 be struggling in their community. I do think we've seen 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.040 some shifts in the way that we are thinking about 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.360 drug treatment and the criminal justice system. Certainly in d C. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:04.720 We have been on a multi year strategy of decriminalizing marijuana, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.680 for example, and making sure that at the same time 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.359 though we're educating young people about the dangers related to 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:20.640 overusing marijuana. We also seen more help and support for 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.919 people to get on medically assisted drug treatment, which is 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:31.039 changing the conversation for people who have dependence of opiates 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.800 and they've been in this kind of circle for decades 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.560 and decades that have separated them from jobs and family 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.159 when there is a medical treatment available to them. Because 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.800 I do think that as we see that type of 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.039 treatment go up, then people can better manage and they 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.440 won't go to the use of street drugs, which is 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.440 very dangerous. But with quarantine and isolation, the risk of 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.360 death with the use of some of these drugs goes 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:00.760 up for people who are used to being among a 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.640 group of people and now they're on their own. And 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:08.080 I'm very focused on what the use of telemedicine in 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.919 this COVID period is going to do for us. How 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.279 can we use technology and put it in the hands 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.760 of people or put it in more public spaces so 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.200 that people can connect with providers. I'm really excited about 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.640 the kind of continuum of public health supports that can 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.839 be provided in that way. Mona, Mary, you spoke a 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:35.320 little bit ago about your hope to build a facility 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:39.040 where people could detox and hopefully could be well positioned 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.440 to be on a path to recovery. And yet often 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:47.000 facilities and clinics that do that work receive some pushback 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.599 from neighbors saying like, we don't want those people here, 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.320 We don't want that in our backyard. Have you confronted that, NDC, 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.000 and how do you respond to that? Oh, no, not 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.440 inting that would never happen. Yes, I have confronted that, 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.719 and I've had the opportunity, you know, d C Chelsea. 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:06.480 So you know, before I was mayor, I was a 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.800 Ward Council member and this issue has come up many times. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.080 We for example, and I'm sure you're familiar with Oxford Houses, 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:19.040 when people come together in a residential environment, independent living 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.920 and they're all everybody's in recovery. It's a kind of 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.119 hands off government approach to people getting back on their feet. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.760 And I love the model and it actually has worked 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.160 very well here. But you're right, if people know about it, 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.280 they're concerned about just other people who made too many 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.120 mistakes living close to them and maybe being a danger 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:43.080 to them. And the thing that always gets me when 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.240 I'm in a community, I can always say, who do 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:52.600 you think these people are? They're your neighbors, they are brothers, cousins, nephews, friends. 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.480 We all have somebody that we know who needs help 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.040 getting back on their feet, and they have to have 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.640 a place to live us like you, and you know, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.800 I've developed over the years all kinds of ways to 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:09.680 help homes like that integrate into d C. It's not easy. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.600 I've had too many neighborhood fights about it, but it's 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.920 so worthwhile when people just recognize that there are all 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.960 kinds of people in the world, and sometimes people are 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.160 going to need a second chance, and it maybe you, 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:26.200 it may be a cousin and nephew, your son, daughter, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:30.320 And we live in a community that values supporting each other. 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.080 So it takes a little bit of extra leadership and 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.240 work on the part of elected officials, but it is 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.520 worth it, clearly I agree, And certainly over the last 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.520 few years there has been a real push from the 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.920 public health community and from clinicians and others who are 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.560 on the front lines of treating and working with people 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.840 who have substance use disorders and addiction to really try 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.360 to move to an approach of harm reduction. You know, 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.560 while you certainly hope people can be on a path 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.959 of recovery and sobriety, you want to reduce the harm 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.960 that they are doing to themselves while that happens. And 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.160 clearly nar Can is a major example of harm reduction. 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.439 Can you just talk a little bit more about your 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:18.120 citywide commitment to narcan now? Absolutely, I don't think that 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.880 we've done enough to talk about harm reduction because we 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:26.239 still live in a world where addiction is seen as weakness, 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.240 not as an illness. So that's why I do think 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.840 that leads to some of the persistent stigma related to 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:40.079 substance abuse disorders, and so really educating people and constantly 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:44.480 having those conversations I think will reduce the stigma, will 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.880 help people get help and manage their illness and stay alive, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.240 and all of those things are important. I've been Mayor 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.760 six years and over that time we've been working on 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.360 nar Can distribution. Very recently in our drug stores. Now 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.480 someone can go in who is a family member, friend, 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:09.440 potential bystander, and get the nasal spray, which were is 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.000 going to help us save lives and also lead to 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:18.359 some productive conversations about substance abuse disorders and harm reduction. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.199 That we're trying to keep people safe and keep people 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.600 alive and not come to some judgment about their illness. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:42.080 We'll be right back stay with us, so Mayor Bowser, 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.480 as we hopefully are moving out of the pandemic over 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.240 the course of this year. How do you think about 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.360 your job to help people move forward from this collective 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.480 trauma that we've been through, especially for young people who 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:01.240 have been so dislocated and so isolated from going to school, 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.240 from playing sports, from going to church, from seeing their 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.600 friends in the park, from seeing their grandparents at holidays. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.640 Because this has been a collective trauma too, and one 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.959 that's fallen the hardest on our most vulnerable. I think 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.800 I struggle with that, to be honest with you, Chelsea, 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.640 because my experience has just been so different, because I've 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.880 been in person at work every day of this pandemic, 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.440 and so when I'm talking to friends. I have a 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.760 god daughter who's a tween, and I just see in 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:37.040 them what this has done to their social interactions, to 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.319 their love of school, their love of sports, just as 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.440 you said, and people have to ease back into that. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.920 I noticed that when we reopen our schools, people have 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.480 given teachers are hard time for this, that and the other. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.760 And I did too, except they were at home. Had 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.079 to pivot to teaching lessons at home. Some teachers hadn't 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.720 been in their buildings for eight or nine months. And 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.280 so what I have seen, just and because we're just 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.440 trying it putting one foot in front of the other, 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.280 is that as people come back to those environments, they 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.080 have to kind of softly come back. So maybe you 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.040 don't say everybody starts work on Monday at nine am. 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:21.080 Maybe you invite one group in to have just a 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.320 small staff meeting, or you invite you know, a sit down, 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.400 little coffee for six, or you do a tour so 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.320 everybody can see how the plexiglass has been put up 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.400 and their social distancing reminders. So I think people have 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.640 to be eased back into their normal lives and we 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.240 have to give each other the grace to do that. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.280 While at the same time all of us are leaders 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.600 in our communities, we have to recognize that we've lost 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.600 some things not being together and having a real plan 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.239 to get back to those things. It's just really important 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.080 to our mental health, physical health, or academic health. Our 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.560 relationships are jobs and productivities in our downtowns. I'm sitting 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.240 in downtown Washington right now, and sometimes early on in 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.199 the pandemic, it would make me cry just to see 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.800 how empty the streets were and how a restaurant clothes 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.760 meant thirty people who weren't working and didn't know how 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.760 they were going to feed their families. And they have 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:25.760 these beautiful museums where Americans aren't visiting right now. So 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.040 I think that we all have to ease back in, 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:31.800 but we have to have a plan to get back. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.360 To learn more about Mayor Bowser's work on addiction treatment 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.679 and harm reduction and everything else she's doing, please go 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:48.720 to Mayor dot DC dot gov. Dak Shepherd wears a 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.280 lot of hats. He's a hilarious and informative podcast Armchair Expert, 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.720 which he co hosts with Monica Padman. He's a talented 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.959 actor who has appeared in too many movies and TV 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.320 shows to list. He's husband to actor Kristen Bell. He's 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.920 a dad, and he's an advocate for approaching issues of 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.679 addiction with openness and honesty. It's inspiring to have the 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.920 chance to talk with someone who has worked so hard 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.880 to shatter stigma around substance used disorders and addiction, particularly 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:22.240 including by speaking openly about his own experiences. One of 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.200 the reasons I'm so grateful to talk with you today 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.720 is I think we need people who just refused to 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:32.520 be shamed and are honest because I hope that helps 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:37.640 other people. Then refused to be shamed privately or publicly. Yeah, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.440 I think maybe it would be helpful for me to 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.800 say how I delineate between shame and guilt. I think 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.320 guilt is a tremendously wonderful emotion. I think it is 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:53.520 often the motivation for change, It's the motivation for apologies. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.000 It's great guilt is I did something bad, or I 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.760 did something I wish I hadn't. Shame is I am bad, 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.080 I am a piece of ship, I am not worthy 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.600 of love. There's nothing very constructive that can come out 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.200 of that, but guilt. I'm all about embracing guilt, and 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.800 I have it all the time. When I've been very 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.840 public about my stuff. I don't feel shame because I apologize. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.120 I make amend I make an attempt to write the 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.760 things I've done, and once I've done that, I don't 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.200 have any shame about it, and I'm not carrying around 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.240 fifteen years of shame from when I was a raging addict. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:30.920 I felt guilty about a lot of those things, but 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.360 I I'm not embarrassed by them. I agree. I mean 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.200 guilt hopefully helps us take responsibility, and certainly as parents, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.680 I want my when like you're throwing a magnetile down 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.640 the toilet and we had to call the plumber, Like, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.520 I'm glad that they felt guilty about that. I'm also 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.040 like even more glad they took responsibility and apologized for 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.320 anyone who's listening to us tax who may not be 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.960 familiar with your story, would you just share a little 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.800 bit of your history with addiction? For sure, but briefly 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:01.880 to want to say yeah. The proudest and I am 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.440 of my children ever is when they admit something and 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.120 say sorry. That to me is the single most impressive 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.760 thing a little person can do, because it's the bravest 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.400 thing to own your shortcomings. It's so hard to do. 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.600 It really is hard to do. So when they do 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.680 that to me is like way better than a's way 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.120 better than cartwheels and all this other stuff they do. Okay, 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.360 so my story in a nutshell is if people know 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.640 what the ACE score is, you know you can take 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.320 this childhood trauma test. There's I want to say, eight 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.760 or ten questions and I'm getting get all these numbers wrong, 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.200 but you'll get the message if you had a parent 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.680 that was mentally ill, if you grew up with food deprivation, 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:43.720 if you had an addict in the house, if you 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.840 were subjected to sexual abuse, if you're subjected to physical abuse, 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.880 all these things. I took that test because we had 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.480 a guest on explaining it to us, Nadine Burke, and 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.760 I was like aid to the ten or something, and 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.960 I was like, okay, that explains a lot of things. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.800 You know, an addiction being one of those. I come 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.800 by it through generations of addicts before me, and then 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.280 I had a good deal those childhood traumas. And if 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:10.960 you had asked me at eighteen, I would have just 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.720 said I liked drinking. It's fun. I like having fun. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.439 It was tremendous amount of fun for eight years. It 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.399 worked great. And uh I also did a copious amount 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.479 of cocaine. That was probably my favorite thing to do, 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.720 and then it became untenable and it didn't work anymore. 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.199 I would be on all the things that kept me 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.520 from feeling the feelings I didn't want to feel, and 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.480 I was still feeling them. It just wasn't an escape anymore. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.040 And I tried to get sober. Many times I would 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.639 get two months, i'd get three months. This went on 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.159 for a couple of years, and then I had this 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:51.200 very unique experience where I was about to start a movie. 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.760 I decided to take a vacation. I went down to 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.280 Hawaii with a friend. I specifically went there because I knew, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.680 or I believe, they didn't have cocaine there. I found 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:05.600 Chris Math instead, just a week of just terrible over consumption. 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.600 By the time I flew home, I was so sick 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.119 that I could barely get on the plane and I 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.280 had to layover in San Francisco, and to get on 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:16.639 the next plane I had I had to go to 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.320 the bar and have four or five jack and cokes 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.840 just to do it to get through the next flight. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.840 And I was in the corner of this bar because 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:27.879 I had been in a a at that point, so 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.800 I was just paranoid someone from A A was going 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.200 to see me in this airport. And I was also 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:35.639 starting a movie where I was going to make the 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.440 most amount of money I've ever made in my life, 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.360 an amount of money that I was positive would make 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:45.240 me feel happy. And people had recognized me the whole 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.200 time I was in Hawaii, and that was something else 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:52.240 I had believed would make me feel happy. And on paper, 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.760 I had everything I had set out to get when 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.679 I moved to l A. And I was like just 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.760 so miserable and suicidal that I thought, oh boy, you 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.480 have all the things now, and you're the most miserable 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:11.760 you've ever been, so something much bigger is broken. I 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.200 consider that a huge, huge gift that I was so 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.480 lucky and spoiled that I had those things, because I 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.040 honestly don't know if I could have figured that out 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.000 without those things, because for so many years I was 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.040 telling myself it was those things that were missing in 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:27.920 my life and that if I had those I would 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.720 have real self esteem and like myself and and be joyful. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.520 And I just feel like it's such a blessing that 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.040 I could get those things and feel suicidal, because it 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.320 really made me confront that something much much bigger was 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.840 going on. That was my last drink. That was sixteen 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.879 and a half years ago. And then I was sober 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:53.280 for sixteen years, and I raced motorcycles, I raced cars. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.600 I do a lot of stupid things to get malapproval, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.840 and I get hurt often, and I have surgeries often, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.960 And during quarantine I had two in a row. Um 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.960 there was an off roading accident and there was a 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.080 motorcycle accident. And through the course of being on opiates 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.720 for I don't know, maybe you know, a solid month 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.000 and a half out of a three month window. The 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.679 second time when it when it was over, I was 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.200 like this, No, this is not over. I'm going to 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:26.040 keep going. So then I started obtaining them illegally. I 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.320 came to this idea that I knew what unmanageability was. 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.359 It was that trip to Hawaii where I'm in a 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.440 car accident on day two of the trip. There's police involved. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.840 That to me represented powerlessness in unmanageability. The obiit thing 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.600 was very misleading because I still was doing everything I'm 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.639 supposed to do. I was still interviewing people and they 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.080 were going it was going well. I was still playing 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:51.600 with my kids on stop and putting them to bed 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.320 and waking them up and doing all the dad stuff, 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.720 and I just generally was cruising through life without any 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:03.159 unmanageability other than the terrible aspect of opiates is that 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.520 your tolerance just is going up daily. So my intakes 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.480 going up daily just to stay at this level that 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.159 I don't have to think about any emotions I have. 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.000 And then it got to a level where it occurred 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.639 to me, oh, you're extremely physically addicted to these and 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.520 you're going to have a detox. And everything was secret 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.200 still at that point, and I'm getting kind of visibly 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:30.240 DETOXI to my loved ones, and I'm at that point 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.760 line and saying, because I do I have, Sorry Edkarth right, 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.720 So I'm saying, oh, I have. I'm having a really 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.480 bad flare up and that's why I'm so And this 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.600 goes on for a couple of days. And the one 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:45.520 thing I got out of those sixteen years of being 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:50.040 sobers I hadn't gasol at anyone. And I used to 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.159 be able to do that like crazy when I was 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.000 an addict. Before I could look at everyone and like 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.040 to them and it was just um, I couldn't. I 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.040 couldn't do it. I was make keen. People who loved 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.439 me feel crazy because they knew something was going on 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:08.000 and I was lying. And then I just eventually came 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.240 clean to my wife and to Monica, my co host 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.159 and best friend. Yeah, and then I had to go 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.960 to my fucking meeting I've been going to for sixteen 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.879 years and say, yeah, I took a cake last week 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.359 and I was high, and it was terrible. Weirdly, it 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.320 was terrible leading up to it because I had built 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.200 this whole identity in my head around having sixteen years. 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:32.280 I loved having sixteen years. I love talking about in 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.520 the podcast. I love that people would message me and 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.399 say a month three. I love being inspirational to people 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:39.960 for sobriety. And it became I was I was holding 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:43.400 on to that so much. I was deriving so much 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.800 of my self esteem from that that I was really 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:51.200 scared of not having that, and so I avoided losing 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.760 that for a while for a couple of months, and 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:57.600 then eventually I just the I couldn't do it and 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.480 I and I had to telling myself, and then I 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.240 felt very obligated for the people that have been inspired 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.720 listening to me get sober that I got to share 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:10.880 the fact that yes, sometimes man, sometimes it doesn't work out, 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.080 and you know, the solution is just being honest and 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:17.600 coming back. And how do you feel now today? Oh? 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:21.600 My god, so good. One of the most basic tenants 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.760 in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous is that addicts 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:29.639 cannot afford to have resentments. We can't carry resentments. You know. 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:32.840 I had to ask myself, how did that happen? Okay, 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:35.879 I have clearly I have resentments, and I have things 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.960 I need to confront and work out. And so this 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.680 has been like a second chance to confront all those 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.119 things that have been building up. And I have to 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:48.520 say today, at least I feel better with six months 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:52.040