1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Often we take of people as victims, but these women 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: were so strong and yet they disappeared. They too let 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 2: their guard down. 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 13 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: unpublish details behind their stories. I've said this many times. 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 1: Unsolved cases frustrate me. I need a solution or a conclusion. 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: But cold cases are so important. And my next guest 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: wants to talk about missing women one case that is 18 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: more than one hundred years old and she can use 19 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: our help. Author Kathleen Brunel tells me about her book 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: called She's Gone Five Mysterious twentieth century cold cases. So 21 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: you have these five cases of five missing women, and 22 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: we know it is very difficult to prosecute a case 23 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: with no body because there's of course the argument. And 24 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: I would say, particularly with the exception of maybe your 25 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven case, that these are people who could 26 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: pick up and leave and it would be very hard 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: to trace them. Otherwise, why pick women who have gone 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: missing versus women who have been murdered? What intrigues you 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: about this idea? 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: What intrigued me about this idea is when I found 31 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: the first case, which was Anna's case. I was very 32 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: intrigued by this because Anna, when she went missing, her 33 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: husband told everybody that she ran away because she did 34 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: not want to have a family anymore. She didn't want 35 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: to be a mother anymore. She wanted to go to cabarets, 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: and she wanted to have fun, and she didn't want responsibility, 37 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: and he really bad mouthed her to the whole community. 38 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: I felt that a huge injustice had been done to her. 39 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: It'd be really upset. I felt that she had no 40 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: more voice and for her. When I started researching her case, 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: it had been one hundred years since she disappeared, and 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: I really felt that I want in this book to 43 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: give a voice to these women who can no longer 44 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: speak for themselves. And I feel that it's really important 45 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: to give them that voice, because one of the things 46 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 2: in these cases is that when somebody's been missing and 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: been missing for a long time, it's almost as if 48 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 2: they just disappear and it doesn't matter anymore. But it 49 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: does matter, and they matter, and I want to write 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: this book to give them a voice and to keep 51 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: speaking their names and giving them that voice, and to 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: note that they're not forgotten and that they are real 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: people with real lives, and people who often made a 54 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: real difference. And so part of writing the book is 55 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 2: just to tell the stories of like these incredible people 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: and all of the wonderful things that they did, to 57 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 2: not just write about their disappearances, but to write about 58 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: their lives. 59 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: Victim Forward, we know that's really important, rather than putting 60 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: the Killer forward and my other show to fold more Wicked. 61 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, we wrapped up a season that was set 62 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: in sixteen seventy eight about a potential wrongful conviction, and 63 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: a family member from this family of the man who 64 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: may or may not have murdered his mother reached out 65 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: to me and said, please be open minded. Don't think 66 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: that he did it necessarily. We have written to Queen 67 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: Elizabeth and said please posthumously exonerate him. Now that she's gone, 68 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: we're writing to King Charles. And I just thought, my goodness, 69 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: this is three hundred and something years ago and this 70 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: family still cares that much. And I encounter that all 71 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: the time. So I absolutely agree with you that these 72 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: cases deserve closure. And let me ask you, there is 73 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: no doubt based on your research with these five cases, 74 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: that these are women who did not simply walk away. 75 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: That something must have happened to them to stop them 76 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: from returning to their family or to their friends. 77 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, there's lots of little clues and information within 78 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: that gave you this sort of information, so that you know, 79 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: holidays go by, there's certain things. So then the cases 80 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: is for instance, with Agnes two percent, when her briefcase 81 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: was found, her sisters knew that was it. That briefcase 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: was a symbol that she had made it. And so 83 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: she carried that briefcase with her every where she went. 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: And so when they found that briefcase, her sisters knew 85 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: that she was born. 86 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, now with people when they disappear. 87 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: You can look at CCTV, you can look at credit cards, 88 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: you can look at bank statements, you can look at 89 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: cell phone records, so many other ways now that police 90 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: can say, pretty unlikely this person just walked away from 91 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: their life. But in the nineteen eighteen, nineteen twenties and 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: thirties and forties, it was really easy to kind of 93 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: pick up and move somewhere and not and not tell anybody. 94 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: And so it's I think you're right, it's those little 95 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: clues the context of somebody's life. Knowing that you know 96 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: this person is a wonderful mother and would have never 97 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: walked away, that must have given the police something to 98 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: really think about, unless you're about to tell me that 99 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: in these cases the police cared about some and then 100 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: didn't care about others. 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: Well, Agnes two for since she was very lucky because 102 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: in a lot of the cases, what's interesting is you know, 103 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: you have the family coming in and really fighting for 104 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 2: these women, and sometimes you have the police really fighting 105 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: in other cases not so much. With Anna Lakazio, you 106 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: know that situation, you really did not have anything happening 107 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: in that case for two years, and it wasn't until 108 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: the family came in, and then you had her uncle 109 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: reaching out for help with Grace Hemistead coming in, who 110 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: is if anyone who read the book, missus Sherlotte Holmes 111 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 2: and I know that you've had that here on your show, 112 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: so you know, she actually came in on this case, 113 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: and she came in to fight, and the sheriff in 114 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: the town basically said, I won't let a woman come 115 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: in here and tell me how to do my job. 116 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: You know what I'm going to do. So that was 117 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: very interesting because at that point he did not have 118 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: one slip of paper regarding Anna's disappearance, and that's two 119 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: years on in her disappearance, nor had it figured in 120 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 2: the newspaper. Nothing, There was nothing on her disappearance. It 121 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: was as if she was just gone and they just 122 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: moved on. So that was just a very upsetting case. 123 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: And that's the first case I came across. So it 124 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: was just a very upsetting case until her uncle got 125 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: involved and started demanding answers, whereas on a supercent's case, 126 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: she had four sisters who were demanding answers and her 127 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: husband he called them the four Furies. He did not 128 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: like it very much, but they were not going to 129 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: relent at all. So they did everything they possibly could. 130 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: But even in the face of that, they could not 131 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: They couldn't get him, you know, they couldn't. But they tried, 132 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: they really really tried. 133 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: Well, let's get into the story. So this is nineteen eighteen, 134 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: and this is Anna Laicassio. And you said that she's 135 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: a mother of a married mother of four. Is that right? 136 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: Yep, she's married, mother of four. She married when she 137 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: was fifteen years old. 138 00:07:59,400 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: Wow. 139 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: So she married Franklcazio and he was older at the time. 140 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: They married in New York and they settled after having 141 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: three children, they settled in Richfield Park, New Jersey. He 142 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: was a barber and they settled in a barbershop which 143 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: had the shop on one side and had their house 144 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: on the other side, so that you know, she took 145 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: care of the children and he took care of the shop. 146 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: And this, you know, they had this arrangement and this 147 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: worked well, and then they had their fourth child there 148 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: in New Jersey. One of the things I think happened 149 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: was that she was so young when she got married. 150 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: You know that after she had her children, she was 151 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: looking for some freedom and her family was back in 152 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 2: New York. Her sister worked in the Shirtwais factories, and 153 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: Anna wanted to work too. She wanted to get out 154 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: of the house, and by the time her youngest was five, 155 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: you know, she wanted a little more freedom, and so 156 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: she started working with her sister in New York, so 157 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: she would take the train out to work. 158 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: What's the dynamic before where this happens between Frank and Anna? 159 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: Do we see hints of violence or I mean, I 160 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: know there's controlling, but in nineteen eighteen, do we see 161 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: any sort of violent tendencies or anything. 162 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: The neighbors do say there's a lot of fighting going on. 163 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: So this was the case that was interesting for me 164 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: because there wasn't a lot of information and in the 165 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: papers for me, and that's where you know, I was looking. 166 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: So I got most of the information at the trial 167 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: and from genealogy records as bus as I could going 168 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 2: in and so what I found is out there was 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: a lot of fighting between them. And as you say, 170 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: this is where I'm trying to try to look at 171 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: it from Frank's perspective and the fact that it's a 172 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: really interesting dynamic to me that here you have this 173 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 2: woman who marries at fifteen, and Frank is a little 174 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: older at the time, in his twenties, and you know, 175 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: Frank's established in her job, and he's ready to have 176 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: his family and they you know, they move to this 177 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: small town and he's ready to do the family thing. 178 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: And she I think that fifteen is thinking that's attractive 179 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: to her at the time because she can get out 180 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: of her big family home and start her life, and 181 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 2: that looks good to her at the time probably, But 182 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: then after four children so fast, and she's just a 183 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: teenager herself, and now she's in her twenties, and I 184 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: think she's just starting to think like, oh, I can 185 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 2: live my life and I want to have a good time, 186 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: and he's think, no, that looks like that's not what 187 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: I want. And so that's where I think they start 188 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 2: to come to odds, you know, and they start to 189 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: have a tough time understanding one another at that point. 190 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: And so they're having trouble surely in the marriage at 191 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: that point, and a difficult time understanding one another. And 192 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: in a lot of the cases, I'm finding that that 193 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: it's difficult for women, especially in the historic cases. The 194 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 2: older kid, he says that it's difficult for women to 195 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: express themselves and to in a time when they're just 196 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: learning to express themselves, and that poses a problem. And 197 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: there's a point where Frank said that, you know, he 198 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: told her you're not going back to work anymore, and 199 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: she said, I will do his act please, you know, 200 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: and being like that. There's a phrase in one of 201 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: my other cases where the husband issuing his wife for 202 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: custody of their daughter, and you know, she's an actress, 203 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: and he calls her a pretty girl. She has pretty 204 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: girl priorities because she's trying to be an actress and 205 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: she can't be a mother if she is an actress. 206 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: And the judge at the time says, well, I know 207 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 2: many actresses that are good. 208 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: Mothers and actually side to a car which I think 209 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: is pretty interesting because he's so adamant that she can't 210 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 3: do both and it's the nineteen forties, and that it's 211 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 3: just a very interesting thing to me. 212 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: I write about in one of my books. I mentioned 213 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: this one in the show that I Have Bury Bones. 214 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: I write about the heartlawm lawsuits. I don't know if 215 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: you've run across those where men say to women, I'll 216 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: marry you, and I know this is against the rules, 217 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: but let's go ahead and have sex because we are 218 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: going to get married. And then they have sex, and 219 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: then he says his engagements off, and they were allowed. 220 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: Women could sue, and they got a lot of money 221 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: because then you've got your talking about the other side. 222 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: We're talking about sort of like women sexuality and liberation, 223 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: and as we're approaching the twenties, a little more open mindedness. 224 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: But at the same time, that's sort of understanding the 225 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: value of a woman's virtue and the expectation in this 226 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: time period that that is, her value is in that 227 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: and when a man comes and quote unquote ruins her 228 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: before marriage, her value has plummeted and she is now 229 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: legally able to go to the courts and demand money 230 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: from him for ruining her. So I feel like we're 231 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: straddling in this time period a little bit two different 232 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: worlds of sort of that can mentional wear a corset 233 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: and have a chaperone with you, versus sort of women becoming, 234 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: especially with the war, able to embrace more independence and 235 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: more work and all of that. 236 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely absolutely, they had a neighbor upstairs who was 237 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: a little bit of a busy body. 238 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: Thank goodness, those busy bodies are the ones who make 239 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: these stories good sometimes, aren't they? 240 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And she noted that Anna I was spending 241 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: some time at the Cargarets on her way home when 242 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: she was supposed to be still sort of at work. 243 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: And you know, Frank had made dinner by that point 244 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: with the kids, and so one night he went and 245 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: he checked on her, and sure enough, she was a 246 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: saloon down the street, and he didn't let her know 247 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: that he saw her. He asked her where she had been, 248 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: and she said, oh, she had missed the train and 249 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: she had to walk or well, this is all according 250 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: to Frank, because we don't have Anna's word for any 251 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 2: of this. This all came out at trial later, and 252 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: so he became increasingly upset by this, and he decided 253 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: he didn't want her to go to work anymore because 254 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: when she went to work, well, she could go anywhere 255 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: on the way home and he wouldn't know where she 256 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: was or what was going on. And so they started 257 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: fighting about her going to work. This is nineteen eighteen, 258 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: and so war is raging and the Red Cross is 259 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: looking for nurses because a lot of the established nurses 260 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: are overseas, and so they're looking for volunteer nurses, and 261 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: there were ads in the local paper in her town, 262 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: you know, looking for women to come up and train. 263 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: And his mother thought that that would be a good 264 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: idea for Anna to do something like that, and her 265 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: sister Katie thought so as well, and Anna wanted to 266 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: and she brought this up again. According to Frank, Anna 267 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: had brought this up, and so she decided that she 268 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: she wanted to do this, and Frank again thought this 269 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: was not a good idea, and she did not want 270 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: her to do this. He wanted her to stay home 271 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: with the children. Apparently they thought about these things on 272 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: the night in question when they had this screaming match 273 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: the night she disappeared. A few days prior to the argument, 274 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: Anna had come home from work. They had fought, and 275 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: Anna ended up not going to work the next day, 276 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: the children said because she had so. Her oldest at 277 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: the time was ten, a girl, and the child below 278 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: that was eight, and the other two were much younger. 279 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: And so those girls testified, and what they said was 280 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: that their mother was thick and so she couldn't go 281 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: to work, and that their father had taken their mother 282 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 2: in a taxi to the hospital. She did not go 283 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: back to work for a few days now. One of 284 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: the girls said she thought it had been two weeks, 285 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: but the other said she thought it was a few days. 286 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: So they don't know. They're testifying two years later, and 287 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: they're young. She doesn't go back to work until the 288 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: day she disappears. She comes home that night, Frank has 289 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: dinner waiting. He says she sits down to dinner, but 290 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: she doesn't eat, and that he hears her tell the children, 291 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: this will be the last night that you ever see me. 292 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: Then the two they put the children to bed, She does, 293 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: and they go into their bedroom. She tells him that 294 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: she doesn't want the house anymore, she doesn't want the 295 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: children anymore, she doesn't want to be a wife anymore, 296 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: that she wants to go, that he needs to let 297 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: her go. She tried to leave the room, and that 298 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: he physically barred the door. The lawyer asked him, how 299 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: long did you bar the door? He said for a 300 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: couple of hours. That's what he testified, and he said 301 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: that she bit his finger. One of the girls corroborated 302 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: that she saw her mother bite her father's finger as 303 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: she was trying to get out of the room. Then 304 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: the girls testified that they heard their mother's scream, like 305 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: a really horrible scream that woke them, so they came 306 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: to the room. This is the scream that neighbors heard 307 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: and that prompted them to call the police. The upstairs neighbor, 308 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 2: Missus Fletcher, who had told Frank before that she saw 309 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: his wife at besselone, she heard the scream as well. 310 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 2: It was so loud it woke her and her husband. 311 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: They knocked on the floor to see what is going on. 312 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: Even came down to knock on the door. Everyone said 313 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 2: that after they heard the scream, there was silence. The 314 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: girls testified that they saw their father with his hands 315 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: around their mother's neck and that she then like fell 316 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 2: and then he dragged her over to the bed and 317 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 2: he laid her down and faced her head to the wall. 318 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 2: It said, he said that she was sick. The girls 319 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 2: went to bed. When they went into the room the 320 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: next morning, she was in the same clothes she was 321 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: in the night before. She was in the same position 322 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: as the night before, and she was looking in the 323 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 2: same direction as the night before. And they asked, did 324 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: you speak to her? No, why didn't you speak to her? 325 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: Was afraid to disturb her. 326 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: Were there any other suspects from the police's point of 327 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: view once they found out, I mean, what led up 328 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: to this? Does he report her missing or how does 329 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: this work? 330 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: He did not report her missing at first. He told 331 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: his upstairs neighbor, Missus Fletcher, who said, what happened last night? 332 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: What prompted this argument? Like what's going on? Because she 333 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: wanted to know, and he said, like, what you thought 334 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: happened happened, basically referring to you know, she was out 335 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: of a saloon with other people, and so we were 336 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: arguing about that. His brother was living with them at 337 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: the time, and his brother said he didn't hear anything 338 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 2: that night. So Drank told his brother we had been 339 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: in an argument, and the brother said, well, she was 340 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: arguing with Missus Fletcher the night before, saying, stay out 341 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: of my husband's and my business. You know, that's my business, 342 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 2: not your business to tell my husband where i'd or 343 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: you know whatever. So she had had an argument with 344 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: Missus Fletcher. You know. Frank alluded to the fact that 345 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: she he thought she was seeing some man at the saloon, 346 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: so maybe that had something to do with it. So 347 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: later somebody said that they thought they saw Anna with 348 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: a man down by the docks. But it turned out 349 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: that Frank had given that man who said he saw Anna, 350 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: he had given him some wine. Just Frank made wine, 351 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: and so they dismissed that as relevant. So no other 352 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: than that they did not investigate the case. So there 353 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 2: was no investigation at the local police station into the 354 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: case at all. And he did not go to the 355 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: police until three days after her disappearance because he said 356 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 2: she ran away, so she hadn't disappeared, she left by 357 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: choice in the middle of the night. But he also 358 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 2: he also got rid of the sheets and the mattress 359 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: of the bed like that week, saying that there were 360 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: bed bugs, like an infestation of bed bugs, and that's 361 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: why he had to get rid of them. Lots of 362 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 2: little things like that happened. He did go to her 363 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: uncle to tell him what happened, and he was very 364 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 2: afraid to go to her uncle and tell him. He 365 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 2: was nervous around her family because they had some money 366 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: and Frank really didn't, and he felt that they felt 367 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 2: they were like higher up than Frank was, and so 368 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 2: he was a little bit nervous around her family. The 369 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: father told him and Frank cried on the stand when 370 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: he talked about it, that if you don't find my daughter, 371 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: then I will be one of the men to kill you. 372 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 2: And so Frank was very nervous about it. But then 373 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: apparently Frank said that after a little bit of time, 374 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: and his father said, never mind, just go take care 375 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 2: of your children. The children ended up going to an 376 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: orphanage and they were there basically until they were old 377 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: enough to work, and then they slowly came back to 378 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: live with Frank. He eventually sold the house on Paulison 379 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: Street and built a new area on Main Street where 380 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 2: he had a thriving business. He lived a good long life. 381 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: His son took over the business for him, and he 382 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: had you know, children, grandchildren, all of that. He did 383 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: get in trouble for selling wine and making wine during prohibition. 384 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 2: During that time. That's when I was able to verify 385 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: because this was three years after the trial that he 386 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: got in trouble, and the newspaper made a reference to 387 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: the fact that still no one had seen Anna at 388 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: that point, that she was still missing and no one 389 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: had seen her. He never remarried, but no one ever 390 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: saw her again, and there was money waiting for her 391 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: at her job at the short rates factory, and she 392 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: never collected it, and they thought about her going to 393 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: join the Red Cross and to work. There's no evidence 394 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: of her training for the Red Cross. She never went 395 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: to go be with her family, which she argued about 396 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 2: wanting to do, because they were looking for her and 397 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: they couldn't find her. There was a fresh patch of 398 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 2: cement in the cellar that missus Fletcher saw because they 399 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 2: showed the cellar, and she wanted to know why that 400 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: was there, and she smelled lime, so she wanted to 401 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: know what this was all about. And she didn't trust 402 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: the local sheriff because she knew nothing was being done 403 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: about the case. So she went to the town over 404 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 2: to that police station and she told them about it. 405 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: They told their sheriff, who promptly told all the roads 406 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: wild self. So Frank tried to sue her for defamation 407 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 2: of counter and she actually stopped talking about the case, 408 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: and when they tried to come talk to her, she 409 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 2: said that she wouldn't speak to anybody, so she stopped 410 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: talking about the case altogether. So two years later, when 411 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: Grace Hemmiston came in, she wanted to dig that cellar 412 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: up and she wanted of animals there because one of 413 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 2: the things that was happening in the case, and something 414 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: that Grace Humiston was very well known for, is that 415 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: Anna's reputation was being called into question, that she was 416 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: a bad wife, she was a bad mother, that she 417 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: had caused this, and you know, Grace Hemmiston famously in 418 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: the Krugel case said no, she's not a bad girl. 419 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 2: She did not cause this. So here Anna's uncle read 420 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: about her and wanted her to come, you know, find 421 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: Anna and bring those same rules into Anna's case. Now, 422 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: whether they dug up this seller, I could not verify. 423 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: I don't think they ever did dig up the cellar. 424 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 2: I know that the sheriff would not let them. I 425 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: don't believe that she ever did. And we don't really 426 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 2: have papers for her, and I can't find any notes 427 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 2: from her on this case. She did testify in the 428 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: trial and she said that Frank would not contribute money 429 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: to the case. And in his defense, he said, well, 430 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: why would I she left me, Why would I give 431 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: money to somebody who loved me? So in his defense, 432 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: I'm trying to stay in partial to It's hard to 433 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: but I tried to because in some ways he said difficult. 434 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: But in other ways try and stay open to him. 435 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 2: So if you look at it from that perspective, if 436 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: she did leave him, he says, well, why would I 437 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 2: Why would I put money, you know, to hope in 438 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: that sense, you know, I just want to get on 439 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 2: with my life. So so that would make sense in 440 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 2: that in that case. And he said he didn't have 441 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: a picture of her to put in the paper, and 442 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: that's why he didn't put any in the paper. Her 443 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 2: sister testified, and they said, why didn't you help him 444 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: get a picture of your sister, And she said, because 445 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: he had plenty of that, you know. And he said 446 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: and he said, you're you're mad, and she said no, 447 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: she said, dogs get mad. I'm not mad. So she 448 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: was very interested, I understand, and his sister. 449 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: So, Frank, if he's responsible, gets away with it. 450 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: And again maybe he had nothing to do with it. 451 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 2: There's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but I think the 452 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: jury without a body, yeah, the jury did not feel 453 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: comfortable condemning him, especially when he had a good reputation 454 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: in town, and it's a small town. It really didn't 455 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: feel comfortable condemning him without the evidence of a body 456 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: or any emidence. 457 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Well, now, we're going to the other end of the 458 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: spectrum in your book to nineteen seventy seven. Tell me 459 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: about I mean, we'll just take this chronologically. What we 460 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: know if she is a victim, and I think we 461 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: believe that this young woman is a victim. Actually she's 462 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: a girl, we're saying, a teenager, right, Okay, what do 463 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: we need to know about Simone Reniger? 464 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 2: So Simone was raised Originally she was in Pittsburgh, but 465 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: when she was just about five years old, her father 466 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 2: passed away and so her mother, Jane, brought Simone back 467 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: to New York, where Jane's parents lived. And at about 468 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 2: that time, across the street, John Ridinger was living with 469 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: his daughter Betsy and his wife, and his wife unfortunately 470 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 2: passed away from a cerebral hemorrhage. And so you had 471 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: these two widowers living across from one another with young daughters, 472 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: and they met and they eventually married, and so the 473 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: daughters were only two years apart, Betsy and Simone. John 474 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 2: adopted Simone and Jane adopted Betsy and they became a family. 475 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: John joh brought him to Massachusetts to sherborn and that's 476 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 2: where Simone spent one of her teenage years. She was 477 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 2: a very smart girl. She was fluent in French as 478 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 2: a youngster. She's a gifted musician. She played by year. 479 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: She loved horseback riding. Spirited girl, very creative. Her mom 480 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 2: was very creative. The girls just had a lot of 481 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: fun together. They had a very close bond, these two girls. 482 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: And they had the family home on chap Equatic, which 483 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: is just off with Edgar Town on Martha's Vineyard. This 484 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: home had no it's in the seventies. It didn't have 485 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: any running water, electricity, phone, like, none of that, but 486 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: like a really fun place. They loved going there. One year, 487 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: they spent the entire summer there. They also usually spent 488 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: at least two weeks there and they would go sailing 489 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: and collecting shells and just reading and puzzles and spending 490 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: time with cousins, and you know, they just love to 491 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: be there. It's a great place for them. Simone, by 492 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: the time she was in high school, Oh, she didn't 493 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 2: really want to be there. She didn't like to go. 494 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: Her sister remembers hearing Simone's name over the intercom because 495 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: they were calling her for detention because she had skipped school. 496 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: But she wasn't there when they were calling her for 497 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 2: She's gidding more detention. 498 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: Wow, So she just kind. 499 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: Of eventually dropped out all together. By the time she 500 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: was a sophomore, she got her own place in Framingham, 501 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 2: which is close to Schadbye, and her mom helped her 502 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: pick out her place. She was getting her a Genie 503 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: d and she got a job at a local diner 504 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 2: in Native. So these are all kind of like in 505 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: close proximity at about this time. This is when John 506 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: and Jean they divorced. They're not together anymore, so all 507 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 2: this is going on at about the same time, and 508 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: Betty was living with her father. 509 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: What happens to Simone in between being fluent in French 510 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: and gifted musician and somebody who seemed to got to 511 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: be on the track to maybe staying in school or 512 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: accomplishing things, and to all of a sudden it seems 513 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: like out of nowhere rebelling and having problems in high school. 514 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: Was it the divorce between Jane and John or is 515 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: it or anything that you have sorted out about the 516 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: switch with this. 517 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: Betty just told me that, you know, Simone's just so 518 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: smart that traditional school was just not really her thing. Okay, 519 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: And she just was such a creative mind, do you 520 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: know what I mean? H Like she enjoyed going to 521 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: concerts and being creative, and like she still loved all 522 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: of that. It's just not in a traditional sense. Yeah, 523 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: that's an area that Betsy kind of explained it to me. 524 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: This didn't seem to be any kind of break at 525 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 2: all with her personality. This kind of seemed to go 526 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: with her personality, like this was kind of who she was. 527 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: Did she get along with her folks? 528 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: She did, and she got along with everyone at school. 529 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: Betsy said, like she was like the friendliest person at school, 530 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: that everyone knew her, everyone liked her, Her teachers loved her. 531 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 2: Like everyone loved her. She said that she was your 532 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: friend before you even knew her. That was just who 533 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: she was. She was just like incredibly friendly, wonderful, everyone 534 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: loved her. This will play into when she disappears, because 535 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: it was not uncommon for her to just decide she's 536 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: supposed to be one place, but she'll decide, oh, there's 537 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: a party, I'll go there, you know, and like it 538 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: just was not uncommon for her to do that. So 539 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: this is how she's you know, she's she wants to 540 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: get herded and start her life instead of going to 541 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: traditional school every day. So that was just like very 542 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: in keeping with her character, like with who she was. 543 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: What about boyfriends. 544 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: She had a boyfriend at the time and on again, 545 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: off again boyfriend who was considered a suspect, but they 546 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: marked him off pretty fast because he was incarcerated at 547 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: the time. 548 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: Oh there you go. 549 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And she was in fact supposed to visit him 550 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: on the day that the police went to see him 551 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: to speak to him. She was on the visitor list 552 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: from that day and she didn't show up on that day, 553 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: and he in fact was like very concerned, but she 554 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: had stopped writing to him and he didn't understand what 555 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: was going on, so he was very worried about her. 556 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: So she's seventeen. She is working on getting her ged. 557 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: Is that right? 558 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: Yep, she's working on getting a ged. She has her 559 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: own place. She's working at a diner called the Rainbow Restaurant. 560 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: It's a natick. The one thing that's happening is she's 561 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: getting everywhere by hitchhiking, and hitchhiking is big at the time, 562 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: and she hitches everywhere. I mean, that's how she gets around, 563 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: you know. And in talking with her sister, you know 564 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: they all did this. You know, everybody did this. She said, 565 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: even one time that their mother hitched, you know, to 566 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 2: get them where they needed to go. And I mean 567 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: that's just what they did. And Simone did this all 568 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 2: the time, and how she got to work, you know, 569 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: it's how she got to parties, It's how she got 570 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: everywhere she needed to go. Her mom asked her to 571 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: go maybe day weekend on a Friday, to go to 572 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 2: the vineyard with her and her new friend. Boyfriend set 573 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: the time and Simone would have gone with them on 574 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 2: the Friday, but she had to work a shift on Saturday, 575 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 2: so she said she would meet them on Saturday instead, 576 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: So they were going the day before Betsy came. Her 577 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 2: sister came to the restaurant Saturday morning and asked if 578 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: she wanted a ride to the bus which was traveling 579 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: down to the Cape. Someone said no, she was all set. 580 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: Betsy said, okay, because Betsy was staying back home, she 581 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: wasn't blowing down to the vineyard. So Betsy said, okay, 582 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, and she left and then Simon finished out 583 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: her shift. She planned to hitch down to the Cape. 584 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 2: Her friends were a little nervous about that because that's 585 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 2: a much longer treat from Boston down to the Cape 586 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: and just a regular you know, you're going to a party, 587 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 2: you're getting a ride to work or whatever. But you know, 588 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: she was determined. She was a very determined person. She 589 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 2: was to do what she was going to do. So 590 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: that was that she left the restaurant and that was 591 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 2: the last time that anyone saw her. The problem was 592 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: when she didn't arrive on the vineyard, her mother thought, oh, 593 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: she ran up with some friends and decided not tonight. 594 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 2: You know, she'll come tomorrow. And when she didn't show up, 595 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: then oh, maybe she said she just not to come 596 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: for Labor Day. I'll see her when I get home. 597 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: Because this was very characteristic of Simon. Now, her sister 598 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: Betsy thought she's on Cape, and the thing is, you 599 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: would she wouldn't have had contact with her because there 600 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: was no way to contact the Cape house. So in 601 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: her mind, Simon's on Cape. In the mom's mind, Simone 602 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 2: found something else to do, so nobody knew she was missing, 603 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: is what I'm trying to say. For days until Jane 604 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 2: came home. And when Jane came home, the first thing 605 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: she did. So this was September tewond was the last shift. 606 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: We don't know the exact day that Jane came home, 607 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: but the missing person's file did not go through until 608 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: September eleventh. 609 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: Wow. 610 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: Right, So the first thing Jane did when she came 611 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: home was go to Simone's apartment and to say where 612 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: were you? What's going on? Simone's not there. She called 613 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: Betsy and said it's where's Simon? Have you seen some moon? 614 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: And she said, well, no, she's with you and she 615 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: said no, she's not with me. And they started looking 616 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: around for her, and then tryally, they went to the 617 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: police station. Now here's an instance where the police said, oh, 618 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 2: she's probably just out and about. And she had a 619 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 2: little reputation for herself. So the police, you know, they 620 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: kind of knew her, and you know, Betsy said, they said, oh, 621 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: she probably just ran away, to which Betsy said, well, 622 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: she lives on her own. 623 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: Where is she running from? 624 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 2: You know, she has her own apartment. 625 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: She doesn't need space. 626 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's not running away. She's got her own apartment. 627 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 2: They realized pretty quickly that they were on their own, 628 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 2: that there really wasn't going to be much of an investigation. 629 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: So Betsy said that in the early days, you know, Jane, 630 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 2: their mom really took over and it was very helpful 631 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: because she just she just organized everything and they were 632 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 2: posters together. They knocked on doors. Their dad he knew 633 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: a lot of cb It was probably like a cb 634 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 2: or organization. And they had all the truck drivers organized, searching, 635 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 2: searching sides of roads. They got the Salvation Army involved 636 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: to do city searches. They hired private investigators. They really 637 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 2: just took this on themselves. A strange thing that happened 638 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: was that a man contacted them to say that he 639 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 2: had taken pictures of Samoa. He didn't know her, but 640 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 2: he had seen her any aust if he could take 641 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 2: her pictures. So there are these beautiful pictures of Simone 642 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: into nature, and he offered to let the family have 643 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 2: copies of them for hosters. So Betsy went and picked 644 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 2: these pictures up, and these are the pictures that we 645 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 2: have of her. They're very beautiful pictures. The priest did 646 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 2: interview him. He has since passed. Really, I mean, they 647 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 2: just kept searching and searching with no leads at all. 648 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: Ten years later, there was a post in the Metro 649 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 2: news where they posted the pictures again, and an elderly 650 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: gentleman called the place station shared more police and said, 651 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 2: I gave that girl a ride. They said, can you 652 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 2: come down to the station. He said yes, So he 653 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 2: came down to the station and he said, I gave 654 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 2: her a ride on the Sunday. So now the Saturday 655 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 2: was her last shift. I gave her ride on Sunday morning, 656 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 2: I was heading down to the Cape and he lived 657 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: in framing him, okay, which is right there, all these 658 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: bordering towns. I was heading on one twenty eight down 659 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 2: to the Cape on Sunday morning of Labor Day weekend. 660 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 2: Then I've heard people right in and saying, oh, he's 661 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 2: lying because there's traffic on Labor Day on the Cape, 662 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 2: and so that's not true. Well, if you're coming on 663 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 2: Sunday morning, right in early six forty five and you're 664 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 2: heading toward the Cape, he would have been fine, okay, 665 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: so it could be true. So it'd he's six forty 666 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: five in the morning heading to the Cape, and he 667 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 2: said it was about Westwood and he was pulled over 668 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 2: by a state trooper. He was heading to the Cap 669 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: to pick up clock parts because he had a hobby, 670 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: but together he was a retired elderly man. He said, 671 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: the state triper pulled him over for some violation whatever. 672 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if he was speeding or what. He 673 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 2: didn't say. And when he told the officer that he 674 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 2: was heading to the Cape, the officer pointed to the 675 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: back of his squad car and said, Oh, I have 676 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: a girl in the back of the car who is 677 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 2: also heading to the Cape. Can you give her a ride? 678 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: Which sounds very bizarre. Yeah, and so he said, okay. 679 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 2: So he said he gave her a ride to Hyanna's, 680 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: which is a town on the Cape, to the rotary 681 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: at Hyena's and he dropped her off there. He described 682 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: what she was wearing, and the police took down the description. 683 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 2: He said the white T shirt, ripped jeans, grubby white sneakers, 684 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: that she was carrying a Duffel bag. He gave her height, 685 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: which would have been off. He put out taller than 686 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: she would have been and said she waited a little 687 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: more than she would have wayed said. She said her 688 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 2: name was Sissy. And so they took all this down. 689 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 2: He left what was that. Her file was only two 690 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: long at the time they closed it. They put it away. 691 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 2: Now we moved to twenty fourteen. Her mom's gone, dad's gone. 692 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 2: Everyone in the family's bone pretty much except for her 693 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 2: sister cousin. And her sister is thinking, you know, what 694 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 2: is going on with this case. So she goes into 695 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 2: the police station and says, mom's own sister, I'd like 696 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: to know the state of the case. And this is 697 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: why Sergeant Goudino, who was a detective at the time 698 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: in the Sherbrook Police Force, he opens up the case 699 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: file and reading it, he said was the easiest part 700 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 2: because there was really nothing in there. And now what 701 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: he did was he put together a series of questions 702 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 2: and he said, I want to put together some practical questions. 703 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: One of those questions was who are the last people 704 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 2: to see Simone? Even though the original people on the 705 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 2: case did say that they spoke to the people at 706 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 2: the restaurant that day, there was no record of you 707 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 2: know what did they say? Who are these people? So 708 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: there aren't even records of their names in the file. 709 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,399 Speaker 2: So he puts like a media blitz out to try 710 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 2: to find these people, and he's able to find three waitresses. 711 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 2: He speaks to these three waitresses. Now one of the 712 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 2: reasons that the people in the eighties dismissed this elderly 713 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: gentleman is because what he said she was wearing is 714 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 2: not what was in the posters of her missing posters. 715 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: They said she was wearing boots and a skirt and 716 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 2: a blouse and a hat and all these things. When 717 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 2: he goes to interview the waitresses, Detective Gadino, they say, oh, 718 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 2: we always changed at the end of our shift because 719 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 2: we hated our waitressing outfit was awful. It was like 720 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 2: uncomfortable and looked terrible. And she had a great Duffel bag, 721 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 2: and she changed out of her outfit and she changed 722 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: into a T shirt and ripped jeans and white high 723 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 2: chop sneakers, and he thought, old on. So he went 724 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 2: back to that paperwork that was never published, that was 725 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 2: never put out anywhere. So now he's thinking about this 726 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,240 Speaker 2: and then but the gentlemen had died by that point. 727 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 2: He interviewed the song. But the gentleman had never told 728 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 2: his kids about this. So that's something I mean, this 729 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: is an open case. I mean that's something that who knows, 730 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 2: you know, the gentleman could have just been a concerned 731 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 2: citizen who maybe had given whether that was Simone or not. 732 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 2: I don't know. It could be a coincidence, say, an 733 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 2: outfit whatever, but it's interesting if that's true. She got 734 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 2: to hyenas, and that's one of the things in the 735 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 2: case that they need to know. How far did she 736 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: get because if she didn't get to the cape, that 737 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 2: helps them with their search because they need to know 738 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: where to look and where to confine the case because 739 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 2: otherwise they're looking everywhere, you know, So they really need 740 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 2: to know. Because one of the other things they're thinking 741 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: is what if she stopped at a party and what 742 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,879 Speaker 2: if she hitched yes, and she ended up being picked 743 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: up by a friend, because friends picked her up all 744 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 2: the time, and what if they decided to go to 745 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: a party, and what if something happened on a party 746 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 2: that was just an accident and people just tried to 747 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 2: cover it up because they didn't know what to do. 748 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 2: That is an option, and so if that happened, one 749 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: of the things that they're saying now is, you know, 750 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 2: come forward, somebody, come forward, because right now we just 751 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 2: want to bring Simone home and we just want closure 752 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,720 Speaker 2: for the family. And so if something like that happened, please, 753 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: you know, so mom would only be in her sixties 754 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 2: right now. So they believe that in this case, somebody 755 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 2: out there knows something. Somebody knows something. Somebody had to 756 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 2: have seen her somewhere along getting from ned It to 757 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 2: wherever she made it, you know, like she had She 758 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 2: didn't do a straight hitch all the way down, right, 759 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:57,439 Speaker 2: So like somebody saw her somewhere and somebody has some 760 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 2: kind of answers and they just want somebody to come 761 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 2: forward to give them some kind of information. So, I mean, 762 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: their theories are that either she met an accidental death 763 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 2: and somebody is just covering because they're afraid to come forward, 764 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 2: or they're covering for somebody else and it was just 765 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 2: an accident, like a hit and run. 766 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: She's walking down the highway, you know and somebody hits her. 767 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 2: Or an accidental situation at a party, whether in a 768 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 2: car or at a party, or she was the victim 769 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 2: of some kind of situation through hitchhiking, or how far 770 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,320 Speaker 2: did she make it if people can even come forward 771 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 2: they saw her here or there, they need to know 772 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 2: did she make it to the cape if he did 773 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 2: in fact bring her to the cape and drop her off, 774 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 2: as he said, because she knew kids in Hyennas because 775 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 2: they often went to the Capes through Hyennas because she 776 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 2: had relatives and could do it, which is close to 777 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 2: Hyanna's and so they would travel that down to a 778 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 2: toll Did she meet up with friends there and then 779 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,760 Speaker 2: something happened? Right, It's really difficult for them because they're 780 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 2: trying to narrow and they need help. So they really 781 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 2: are relying on the public to try to give them 782 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: some help, which is one of the reasons why I 783 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 2: wanted to put this case in the book, because any 784 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: little bit of publicity that we can try to get 785 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 2: this case, Yeah, any little hope, you know, that we 786 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 2: can get the case. Man. 787 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: I had flashed on Tony Costa for a minute, you know, 788 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: the serial killer who was in this area. He was 789 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: on Cape cod but died about three years before she 790 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: went missing, because I thought these circumstances sound so familiar, 791 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,280 Speaker 1: because I've interviewed now two different people who have covered 792 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: that story of a serial killer who has picked up women, 793 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, who just were wanting a ride. He had 794 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: some hitchhikers, So I had thought I had wondered had 795 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: they looked into were there any people in the area 796 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: who had a history of picking up hitch hikers or 797 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: some well known serial killer. I'm assuming they've done all 798 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: of that, right, Yeah. 799 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 2: They've been working, you know, every angle in the case 800 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 2: and a lot of it too. They have well, they 801 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 2: have two Sergeant Gadino and then you have the Native 802 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 2: Police now working the case, because what Sergeant Gadino found 803 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 2: was that he couldn't work the case by himself anymore, 804 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 2: you know, because they have so many cases that they're working, 805 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 2: and so he now has Native detective working the case 806 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 2: with him as well, and now he's sergeant. So the 807 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 2: case passed in twenty twenty three to a new detective 808 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,479 Speaker 2: on the Sharborn Police, and so you have those two 809 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 2: detectives working the case. So anyone with any information can 810 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 2: call the Shareborn Police or the Native Police and ask 811 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 2: for the detective on the Simone Ryde in their case. 812 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 2: But it really is just a matter of confining the 813 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 2: area in which they're looking to try to figure out. 814 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 2: They also are using DNA evidence now because a detective 815 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 2: working the case before, detect If Gadino, was able to 816 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 2: get DNA from Simone's uncles and so they used that DNA. 817 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,880 Speaker 2: They did not extract DNA from Simone's mother before she passed, 818 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 2: but Nancy did have cards from Jane and at that time, 819 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 2: you know, you licked stamps, so they thought, could we 820 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 2: get DNA from those stamps, And it turns out that 821 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 2: we think you can, and so they sent all that 822 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 2: to the FBI and they're waiting for that to come back. 823 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 2: So they're hoping they can get the mitochondrial DNA from 824 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,879 Speaker 2: the stamps, so that would be great if they can 825 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 2: round out her DNA profile and they can use that. 826 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 2: And they have tried to match Simone to thirty missing 827 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 2: women through mammals, so they've also worked through namos, so 828 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 2: they've been working really every angle that they can. Sergia 829 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 2: Gadino has been amazing and he is really determined to 830 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 2: work this case and to really try to bring Simone home. 831 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 2: So they've been just exceptional, and Betsy's been amazing. She's 832 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 2: just she does not want to let her sister down 833 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,240 Speaker 2: and she is just out there fighting for her sister. 834 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 2: So she's doing everything that she can. And I see 835 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,399 Speaker 2: that again and again in these cases, like with Agnes two, 836 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 2: for some sisters giving up their jobs for certain courses 837 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 2: of the time while one of them is in New 838 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 2: York and the others working and then switching over and 839 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 2: just telling people like, we're here and we're going to 840 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 2: keep fighting and we're not going to be quiet, you know, 841 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 2: and we're going to do everything we can and we're 842 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 2: not going away. It's amazing to have family members like 843 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,720 Speaker 2: that on your side when you can't speak for yourself. 844 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: Do you ever become I mean, I don't know if 845 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 1: it's emotionally exhausted over these cases in this book, or 846 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,959 Speaker 1: what the right phrase is, because open cases really drive 847 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: me crazy. I feel like I need closure, and then 848 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 1: all of my cases essentially, you know, I have closure 849 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,240 Speaker 1: one way or the other. You are working with cases 850 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: that don't have any closure whatsoever. How do you reconcile 851 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: that where they might be sold but they might be 852 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: in forty fifty years or never. And you have all 853 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: of these different families you've spoken to who are desperately 854 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,799 Speaker 1: looking for closure and hoping that your book is going 855 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: to help in that, and that seems like a lot 856 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: of pressure to me. 857 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 2: A previous book that I wrote is sort of the 858 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,360 Speaker 2: same thing, So I'm not sure I had looked previously 859 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 2: at a case having today. I don't know if you've 860 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 2: heard of Sam Bellamy on the Cape. He was a pirate. 861 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 2: His ship went down in the seventeen hundreds and they 862 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 2: have a museum on the cape now. When they found him. 863 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 2: Originally they thought that his story was just folklore, and 864 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 2: it wasn't until they found the pirate ship. And even 865 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 2: when they found the pirate ship, they still said, oh, 866 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 2: it's not Bellamy's ship. And when they found the bell 867 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 2: that said win a, you know, seventeen seventeen, and they 868 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,919 Speaker 2: knew that, no, this is actually real. And what I 869 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 2: was looking for was, Okay, well what about the girl 870 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 2: in the story? You know, I always settle on women 871 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 2: a lot, I'm like, and I love history, so I 872 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 2: love to go back. And so I thought, well, what 873 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 2: about Maria Helett. If he's real, then she must be real. 874 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 2: And so all the folklore, I know, a lot of 875 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,800 Speaker 2: that is made up, but there's a grain of truth 876 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 2: in there, right, So she's got to be real. And 877 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 2: so I started I love genealogy too, so I started 878 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 2: pouring into the records, and you know, I wanted to 879 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 2: find out, like, what was the real story there. So 880 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 2: Barry Clifford, you know, he believed in that story, and 881 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 2: he believed in the pirate and he found that ship, 882 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 2: and I wanted to find her, you know. So I 883 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 2: wrote Bellamy's Bride, and at the end of the book, 884 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,399 Speaker 2: I didn't find out if she was real. Then I 885 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 2: didn't mind. I did find I did narrow her down, 886 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 2: you know, to a few options, and at the end 887 00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 2: of that book, I thought, well, you know what, the 888 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 2: story are so beautiful, and I think I would have 889 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 2: been disappointed if I had narrowed that one down because 890 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 2: I would have maybe burst the stories. And so maybe 891 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 2: it is supposed to be this legend or whatever. But 892 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,880 Speaker 2: with these stories, I think that I feel hopeful in 893 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,799 Speaker 2: Simone's case because I feel like in writing this, like 894 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 2: I said, maybe I can do a small part in 895 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 2: some way to be a little bit helpful. I think 896 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,800 Speaker 2: it takes so many different pieces to try to bring 897 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 2: some closure to this case. But at least with her case, 898 00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 2: there's a chance, with all of these pieces working together, 899 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,240 Speaker 2: that maybe there will still be something done for Betsy, 900 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 2: And so there's still hope that we can do something 901 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,880 Speaker 2: for Simone. With the other cases, I feel like bringing 902 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 2: them forward in the book is what I want to 903 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,359 Speaker 2: do because I feel like what's happened to them is 904 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 2: they're forgotten, and so I feel like what I'm doing 905 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,120 Speaker 2: here is making sure they're not because their cases aren't 906 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,880 Speaker 2: going to be solved, to make sure that they're not forgotten, 907 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:03,120 Speaker 2: That's what I want to do. 908 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 909 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,360 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 910 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,719 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 911 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 912 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, Scroll back and 913 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 914 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 915 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 916 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,359 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 917 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 918 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 919 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod. D him