WEBVTT - Bonus: Mark Adams Interview 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:05.320 Hello, good morning, Hey, good morning, good afternoon. At twelve 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.039 o two. Yeah, here, where are you guys? We are 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.360 in Portland, Oregon. Oh my god, you got up early? 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.200 Did just for you? I'm sorry. I didn't know you 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.520 were that far west. It's okay, We're used to it. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.200 We we actually have phone conversations with people all over 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.400 the place. Oh really, okay, yeah, well I appreciate you 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.840 doing this early too, for my sake and your Oh well, Mark, 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.280 I am Steve by the way, nice to meet Steve. 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:40.320 The other gentleman would be Joe. Okay, hey, how you doing? 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:42.960 And by the way, can you hear us? Okay? I can't? 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.560 Can you hear me? Yes? Alright? Well shall we shall? 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.400 We talk about some Atlantis today? Do you want to 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.599 talk about it? By the way, before we get into 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:53.760 the whole thing. Uh, you're you're about to head off 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.760 to Alaska to research your name? Am I am? Talk 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.320 about that at all? Sure? Sure? Um. You know, you know, 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.040 people who don't know my other work, they see I've 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.560 written a book about Atlantis, and you tend to get 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.400 categorized as one of them, as one of those guys 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.919 who's you know, got got Atlantis? Hypothesis that he's talking 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.319 and they're all guys with the exception of maybe like 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:22.440 Madame Blavatsky, and you know, they're they're surprised to hear that. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.160 You know, this is actually just one sort of thing 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.479 that I do. Um. I wrote a book about Machu 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:32.200 Picchu in Peru a few years ago, and UM, you know, 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.280 I sort of retraced the expedition from nineteen eleven um 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.360 on which fella him Hiram Bingham Um rediscovered Martu Pichu 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.360 almost accidentally. And this new book in Alaska, it's a 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.560 little bit more like that. It's um retracing an expedition 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:54.560 from where the railroad tycoon Um E. H. Harriman, who 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.600 is just uh sort of done an aggressive takeover of 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.800 the Union Pacific Railroad. His doctor tells him, you know, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:03.320 you're gonna have a heart attack if you don't go 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:07.680 on vacation for the summer. So Harriman, being the type 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.960 of person he is, decides he's going to sort of 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:14.320 outfit a boat into a luxury yacht and take two 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:20.320 dozen of America's smartest scientists, environmentalists, artists, etcetera, and bring 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.200 them on this boat. And they're all going to go 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.880 off together and explore this unknown coast of the territory 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.639 of Alaska, which is still you know, pretty pretty much 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.560 terra incognated at that point. UM. And it is. And 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.000 and it's what's interesting is it's you know, it's like 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.480 the height of the gold rush. Uh. You were switching 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.600 from like the Yukon Gold Rush to the Nome gold Rush. 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.520 And one of the people on the boat is John Muir, 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:48.480 who at that point has just written the two or 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.000 three articles that are sort of like the cornerstone of 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.639 American conservation. UM. And he has, you know, just founded 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.040 the Sierra Club. And the sort of clash of personality 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.640 between Harriman and mu were at this exact moment in 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.120 Alaska history, which sort of parallels Alaska right now. I 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.120 don't know how much you've been keeping track of, like, 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.640 you know, the the oil problems they're having in Alaska. UM. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.359 But I was up there talking to the state economist 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.680 about three or four weeks ago up in Anchorage, and 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.320 I was like, how bad is it? And he said, 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:23.400 Alaska gets nine percent of its income directly or indirectly 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.720 from oil. We have a six point five billion dollar budget, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.040 and we have a four point five billion dollar deficit 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.120 in that budget. Now I've heard the off fields after 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.880 there have been dropping in their production, and that the 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.080 had no taxes and also got a check in the 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.400 mail from oil is kind of over I heard, Well, 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.680 that's that's what they're worried about. They they're like, you know, 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.720 they get this thing is what it's called the Permanent Fund, 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:49.680 and you get a dividend every year. I think last 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:51.720 year it was two thousand dollars for every man, woman 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.240 and child in Alaska. So on top of not having 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.600 any sales tax, not having any state income tax, they 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.280 expect money back every year. Um. And now one of 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.520 the big fights they're having is, you know, how much 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.200 of that can we cut without you know, getting voted 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.440 out of office? You know. So it's an interesting time 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.840 up in Alaska, and it'll be an interesting trip, um. 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.560 You know, once you if you follow the coast of 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.839 Alaska from like the southernmost point of the Panhandle out 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.080 to the end of the Aleutians. Actually have a map 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.280 in my office from National Geographic It's it's almost like 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:29.159 driving from Jacksonville to Kansas City, down to Phoenix and 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.640 then up to San Francisco. Yeah, it's a it's a 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.280 big place. It's a really long trip. Yeah, and then 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.080 to go to Nome would be you know, which I'm 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.400 also going to do with. Maybe even Siberia would be 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.600 like you know, I don't know, going to Jackson Hole 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.800 or something. Um so it's a huge place. Yeahs, I 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.599 need to get up there one of these days. I've 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.080 been to a lot of exotic places, but I've never 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.440 to my same been to Alaska, and it's not that 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.479 far away really from where No, no, you guys could 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.920 get there in a few hours. And this breathtaking beaut 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.960 I've never been there either, and I was just like, wow, yeah, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.000 it's amazing. Well it's unfortunately, I know I mentioned to 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.000 you in that email that you should go check out 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.840 the story of Albert Johnson, the Mad Trapper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.200 and that might be subject for a later book or 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.160 something like that. Yeah, definitely looks like a great story. Oh, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.080 it's an amazing story. And the guy that was kind 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.240 of superhuman, I mean he was he had a personality 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:26.760 disorder obviously, but he did some amazing stuff. Yeah. Yeah, No, 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:28.920 that's a great stuff. And those are the kind of 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.479 stories you guys do so well. You know that sort 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:35.360 of slightly out of the mainstream story that hasn't been 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.839 told that much. Mad Trapper is kind of an obscure story. 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:44.120 I don't know, but yeah, we find the weird little stories. Yeah, 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:49.560 we tried to. Yeah, well from the world folks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, seriously, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.640 I actually, uh, I wanted that first off, say you 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.640 you've got off a great little singer the beginning of 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.000 chapter eleven in your book. Oh when you talk about 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.960 uh Maxie and Asher, Yes, powers to to find the 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.719 list and I love this. I'm going to quote your 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.200 book here. Asher was careful not to overstate the importance 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.040 of her findings. Quote, this is probably the greatest discovery 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:21.600 in world history a reporter, and then she goes down 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.320 to stay like this will change the fields of archaeology, anthropology, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.000 blah blah blah. You know, And that's the that's the 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.840 problem with Atlantis. There are you know, there are so 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:37.240 many people out there making these these outlandish claims for 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:41.040 Atlantis based on you know, next to nothing or absolutely 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:45.599 nothing that you know, anyone who wants to take it seriously. Uh, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:47.640 you know can't even get a foot in the door anywhere. Now, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.320 I know, I know it's it definitely puts it makes 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.000 the whole thing kind of a stink, you know. And yeah, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.640 and you know, I would guess that the way I 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.400 read your book, and you're not You're not one of 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.240 those people. You're not a crime, thank you. I pretty ship. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.760 You really tell the history of Atlantis, and you talk 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:04.760 about a lot of the people who are looking for 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.839 and there are lots of people who are looking for Atlantis. 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.960 Would you not agree there are more people looking for 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:16.000 Atlantis now than probably in the entire year history of 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.040 Atlantis up to this point, so you know, and and 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.080 a lot of that is because you know, things like 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.800 Google Earth, um. People can now sit at home on 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.200 their computer and you know, look at translations of ancient 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.400 manuscripts and look at sites around the Mediterranean that you 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.720 know might coincide with the original description of Atlantis. You know, 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.840 you don't have to go out there with a pick 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.120 axe and one of those you know screen things that 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.600 archaeologists used to, uh, you know, shake the dirt through 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.440 for relics and things like that. You can be it is. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:52.360 I've actually got the American Archistic Archeological Association guide book 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.640 right here, and it is it's just listed as that 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:59.560 screen thing that we use sometimes exactly that I like 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.200 shaker thing for the dirt. Yeah, that's got to be 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.560 frustrating to be because you know, you're an archaeologist. You 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.560 want to burrow down there as fast as you can, 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:09.760 and I would be wanting to get a bacco in there. 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.840 But those guys are down there with toothbrushes. You know 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.920 what's funny is there's actually an Atlantis kind of connection 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.640 there in that. The whole reason why people decided in 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.240 the in the latter part of the nineteenth century that 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.360 it might be possible to look for Atlantis was because 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.560 this fellow Schliemann Heinrich Schleiman from Germany, who was not 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.480 an archaeologist, went to a site in what is now 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:39.800 Turkey and followed the clues from Homer's Iliad looking for 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:41.719 the city of Troy. Up until that point, no one 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.080 was sure whether Troy had existed or not. It was, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.440 you know, it was a myth to be interpreted, you know, 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.120 whether you interpreted as fact or fiction or somewhere in 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.400 the middle. We're not sure. But he goes in there 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.520 and he finds this ancient city, uh in a spot 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.480 where where no one had ever bothered to look for, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.320 you know, just using the clues from the manuscript. But 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.240 in the pro as sss, he digs down so deep 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.320 and so fast looking for what he assumes is going 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.839 to be this you know, like treasure hoard that he 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.920 obliterates the city of Troy that he's looking for and 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:17.199 gets down to like earlier version for Yeah. So, I mean, 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.640 you know, people have been trying to like put back 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.480 together the Troy that he destroyed with his team of diggers. 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.199 So you know there's a lesson for archaeology in there 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.439 that kind of like the role model for Indiana Jones, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.200 you know, because Indiana Jones as an archaeologist was you know, 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:36.199 he just go in and basically steal crap out of 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.840 a sacred site. Let's get this thing from its original 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:45.320 place and send it to a museum. Yeah exactly. Yeah where. Yeah, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.160 we're very belongs. So your book is, by the way, 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.880 it's called Meet Me in Atlantis. Uh, and you've written 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.280 previous books. He wrote turn Right at Mochi Pichu. Yes, 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.000 and uh, this is like kind of like turn Right 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.800 at Mochi pich was. So you're kind of like talking 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.120 about stuff that has happened in the past, combining it 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.800 with mythology. But it's also a little different. Now, why 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.360 did you decide to write about Atlantis? Well, it actually 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:14.880 sprang directly from the research of Toady Machu Picchu. I 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.200 was looking through some microfilm from nineteen eleven, the year 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.880 when when Machu Pichu was rediscovered, and I came across 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.319 the front page story in the New York Times that 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:29.800 said German discovers Atlantis in Africa. In Africa, Yeah, And 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.000 I was like, what, hey, people are have been looking 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.240 for Atlantis. I thought Atlantis was this like you know 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.960 bubble city at the bottom of the ocean where they 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:43.000 had you know, nuclear powered chips and you know Scrooge 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:47.559 McDuck kept his millions of dollars or whatever. And uh, 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.920 you know, I read this story from nineteen eleven and says, 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.559 you know, all the clues from the dialogues of Plato. 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.560 And then I was like Plato, you know, because at 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.120 the same time I was working on a story about 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.720 the great philosophers of all time for a magazine and uh, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.839 you know, every every single philosophy professor I called was like, 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.000 I was like, who are the greatest philosophers of all 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.920 time number one, Plato, number two, Aristotle. After that, you 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.280 can argue every single one was like Plato greatest, Aristotle 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.160 number two. And I was like, okay, so the greatest 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:19.200 philosopher of all time is the sole source for the 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.000 Atlantist story. There's you know, there's got to be something 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.920 there that I haven't heard. So then I started digging 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.040 into it, and you know, realized that, yes, there are 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.960 a lot of people using the details and there are 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.440 a lot of details in the original Aliantist story to 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.920 try to a prove it was real and be uh 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.200 show where they believe it had been located. Um, And 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.439 that's how we got started. And then, you know, three 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.240 years later, after traveling around the world, you know, I 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.640 had met a lot of these people and heard their 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.120 hypotheses and visited the sites that they thought might have 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.440 been the original Atlantis. There are a lot of interesting, 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.720 intriguing sites out there, and I was looking at the Atlantopedia, 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.920 which is run by Tony Is it's Tony O'Connell, right, 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.080 Tony O'Connell, Yeah, Oconnell, Yeah, who you mentioned in your book. 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.440 The Atlantipedia is vast, Oh my god, yeah, it's huge. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.559 And I was just looking. Yeah. Yeah, he's got a 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.480 couple of lists out there of all the places that 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.800 people have hypothesized Atlantis might have been. And there are 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.360 literally hundreds of places. Oh yeah, I couldn't even count them. 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:23.840 I mean I could have, but I chose not to. 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.679 You picked for your book, you picked four four places. 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.720 You picked Malta, the island of Santa Reini, on the 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.880 coasts of Morocco, and the coast of Spain to go investigate. 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.000 So why did you pick those four spots? Well, you know, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.319 first of all, a lot of times you'll see locations 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.560 for Atlantis that don't make any sense if if you, 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.199 you know, look at the original details. Assuming that Plato's 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.080 story is real, let's start with that assumption, which is, 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.160 you know, rocky to be certain, I mean, to assume 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.280 the Atlantic story is real. First of all, you have 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:03.280 to believe that a sea god named Poseidon created the 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:07.240 the island of Atlantis. Uh. So you know, you're making 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.560 some some pretty big leaps here to start with. But 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.319 let's assume that it's real. It's a story about a 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:21.920 sea battle between Atlantis and Athens. So you know, for 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:26.120 for an ancient uh navy to be able to travel 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.760 to attack Athens. It doesn't really make sense that it's 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.840 outside of a certain area. You know, it's not going 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.000 to be crossing the Atlantic Ocean, so it's not the Bahamas, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.400 it's not coming from uh, you know, Indonesia, as some 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.199 people have said. You know, there's a guy out there 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.560 with a theory that Atlantis was in the Bolivian Altiplano, 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:50.400 which which is right two miles up, hundreds of miles 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.560 from the ocean. Uh. And you know I've been to 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.199 the uh and I gotta tell you this. It's not underwater. 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.800 It is about the lead underwater place you can imagine. Uh. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.959 You know, So I I drew a you know, sort 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.199 of a circle around Athens of of a certain distance. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.840 And then you know, Plato gives clues in the story. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.600 He says, you know, it was opposite the pillars of 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.000 Heracles or Hercules is it's usually called um. It was 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.960 um near the land called Goddies. It was an island um. 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.720 You know, it was near the Pan Pelagos or the 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.080 the Infinite Sea. So you know, once you you start 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.520 listing these things, you get the sense it had to 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:40.080 be in the Mediterranean a certain distance from Athens and 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.040 the four places that made sense to me Um after 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.200 a week of deliberations with Mr Tony O'Connell over in 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.480 Ireland were probably the most famous Atlantist site, the one 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.520 that shows up on TV specials all the time, which 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:58.120 is Santorini and of Greece, Uh, the island of Malta 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.720 in the center of the Mediterranean. There is a site 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:06.240 just outside Um the strait of Gibraltar in southern Spain. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.800 And then there's a spot in Morocco near the city 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.440 that's now called Aga deer Um, also just outside Um 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.360 the Straight of Gibraltar, but to the south Um. And 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.120 those are the four sights that I went and explored 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.920 at length. Yeah, and uh, I gotta I gotta say 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.040 the one of Morocco is it's the same that the 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.000 locals of carding off all the stones from the ruins, 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.640 because I don't think that that was Atlantis, because it's 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.800 just too high up. I mean, what's the elevation of 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.080 that side? Is what sixet it's pretty high up, I 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.080 mean to have been hit by a wave. And we 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.760 should point out that Plato's description in the Atlantis story 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.400 is is not the island sank to the bottom of 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.440 the Atlantic ocean, as is often you know, bandied about. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.880 But um, it was destroyed by earthquakes and floods in 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.160 a single night. So the site you're talking about in Morocco. 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.760 The guy who came up with this idea, UM, Michael Hubner, 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.840 who was an I specialist in Bond, Germany. You know, 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:09.720 he decided that this sort of circular structure um stone structure. UM. 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.280 I don't know, it's like ten or fifteen miles inland 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.520 from the Atlantic coast could have been hit by a 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.160 huge tsunami. And the area has been hit by earthquakes 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.160 and tsunamis frequently over the years. But yeah, it would 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.960 have to be you know, a thousand foot high wall 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.440 of water or something to get to that site. You know, 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.560 could it be uh? And this is what human proposes, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.160 you know, two or three ancient stories that were put 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:38.000 together as they sometimes are, and remembered as a single myth. Um. 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:42.400 Maybe you know, it's possible, It's definitely possible. UM. You know, 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.440 people love that theory because you know, we're in this 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.960 age of big data. And what Michael Hubner did was 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:53.760 he he found fifty one clues from Plato and you know, 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.000 he plugged them into this algorithm and when it spat 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.120 out at the end, it pointed him to this one 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.960 spot in morocc Go And as he described it to me, 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.199 it was he's like, you know, six stigma, this is 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:12.800 seven sigma. You know. It's like it's it's impossible, you know. 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:14.639 And it's like, you know, when you talk to one 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.400 of these people who was like a pure you know, mathematician, 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:22.080 it's like, well, yeah, but you you're controlling the variables here, right, 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.200 You're plugging in the data that you want. He's like, yes, 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:26.800 but if it did not work, we would have an 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:31.439 old set. I just Francky wanted to loop background. You 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.639 said something that was kind of stuck out to me, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.360 which was that Plato was the soul source of the 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.280 story of Atlantis. And it just seems frankly kind of 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.919 insane to me. I mean, Plato is well respected and 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.399 that's fine, but a lot of he he wrote a 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.760 lot and used metaphors a lot and you know, things 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.400 like that. So it's it's interesting to me that, Um, 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.600 I wonder if you can just talk to to that 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.200 and you know, was he really the only source for this? 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.919 And yeah, I mean thing appears before Plato and you know, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.680 we think that that the Atlantis story, which is written 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:10.639 in two parts, appeared around three sixty b C. So 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:15.520 there's no reference to Atlantis or you know, a city 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.040 at war with Athens, that is, you know, struck by 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:22.520 a cataclysm suddenly before three BC. A lot of people 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.920 seem to have picked up on it afterwards, especially people 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:27.880 in the last hundred hundred fifty years. You know, you've 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.080 got Edgar Casey with his psychic visions of Atlantis going 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.359 under the waves and blah blah blah um. You know, 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.400 none of that would have been possible without Plato's original story. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:45.199 The really odd thing about Atlantis and Plato absolutely you know, 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.119 used a lot of made up stories and myths and 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.399 things like that, you know, stories about magic rings and 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.159 and uh, you know, people dying and coming back at 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.800 thousand years later and things like that. Yeah in the cave, 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.439 Yeah exactly. Know. As as one archaeologist said to me, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.119 you know, one of the world's leading archaeologists who is 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.280 a big doubter of of Atlantis, He's like, you know, 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.680 you know, why don't if you're going to look for Atlantis, 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.560 why don't you go look for for Plato's Caves. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.639 I mean that's my question to Yeah. Well, prior to 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:20.240 reading the Tomaus and Critias, the only Plato that I 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.480 had ever read was The Republic. I read that for 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.040 political theory class years ago, and I remember the Cave 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.399 and and he was quite explicit when he tells the 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.359 tale of the cave that this is just an allegorical tale. 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.160 He he never actually makes it out to be true, right, 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.480 you know. And of course, the the fact that a 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.040 lot of Atlantologists says, as I called him in the 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.080 book people looking for Atlantis Cling to is that the 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.760 character Critias, who is the narrator of the story of 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.320 Atlantis and Plato's Dialogue, says, you know, this is a 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.240 true story. You know, this is this was handed down 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.120 to me by my great great great great grandfather Solon, 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:57.840 who heard it in Egypt and so on. Is a 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:03.360 real character. Um. They he almost certainly did go to Egypt. 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:06.840 What he heard there, we don't know, um, you know. 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:11.879 But what I found really striking about the Atlantist story 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.680 and this doesn't necessarily, you know, make it any more 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.800 true or any more false. But you've got the Republic, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.680 you know, which is Plato's master work arguably the most 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:26.920 influential book in Western civilization. And then you've got the Timaus, 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.520 which is his attempt to give a sort of mathematical 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.600 logic to the cosmos. I think if you had asked Plato, 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.800 he might have said that Tomaus was his most important work. 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.600 At the start of the Tamaus as a sort of 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.960 bridge from the Republic to the Tamaus, and he he, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.680 you know, makes a clear link at the beginning of 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.320 the story. He says, you know, hey, Socrates says, hey, 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.360 you know, could you could someone tell a story illustrating 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.680 all of this stuff that I talked about in my 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.560 speech yesterday, which is a reference to the Republic as 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.679 the bridge between those two. Critias starts telling this story 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.040 of Atlantis, of a you know, an island nation that 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.320 you know, it was located opposite the pillars of Heracles, 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.399 and you know, blah blah blah. I was very noble 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.720 for a while and then became debased and was destroyed 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.040 in a day and a night. And it's like, okay, 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.800 well that's that's interesting. So then Plato goes into the 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.000 meat of the Timaus, where he does things like explain 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:21.960 how the universe is made up of two kinds of 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:27.439 tiny triangles, and you know the four elements you know, earth, fire, water, 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.239 and air, um, and how the cosmos all you know, 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.520 sort of have this geometric circular logic to them, blah 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.080 blah blah blah. And then right after that he comes 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.480 back to Atlantis again, and this time he started giving 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.119 all of this, you know, numerical detail, and you know 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.960 what the circles of Atlantis were like, it's, you know, 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.400 three concentric circles of land and water, and here's how 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.840 big they were. And he gives measurements in states, which 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.200 was a measurement that was about six hundred feet long 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.280 used in ancient Greece. And at that point you start 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.199 to want to say, why is he doing this? You know, 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.199 why is he giving all of this detail for a 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.919 story that he's already used, you know, for whatever purpose 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:11.960 he was going to do to link the Republic to 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:13.960 the Tamaeus. Why is he coming back to this and 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:16.520 all of a sudden giving all of this detail um. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:18.240 And I think that's what sucks a lot of people 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.600 in it. It's a really vivid, um, you know, very 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.080 specific portrayal of this place. And he's he's obviously doing 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:28.720 something there, but whether he's trying to make it sound 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.359 real when it's not, or whether he's you know, using 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:33.280 detail that he believes to be real, or whether he's 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.560 doing something else, is you know, something that no one 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:38.480 has been able to solve up to this point. That's 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:40.359 one of the questions I had for you is and 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.280 he probably can't answer it. But it seems to me 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:45.439 that this is a tale that grew in the telling 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.760 and that somebody you know, sort of tacked on a 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.680 few elements, just like you know, the Internet today. I'm 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:53.919 just curious, did Plato do that? Did he do it 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.440 for a reason, or did the Egyptians do it? Back 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.359 when you don't know? We don't know, you know, I 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.600 think the only way we could figure out how much 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.080 of this Plato made up and how much of it 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:07.960 he believed, um, because we can't we can't know what 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.600 the original story was. But what all we can tell is, 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:12.359 you know, how much of it did Plato believe to 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.159 be true? Um? Would be if some sort of inscription 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:17.720 showed up in Egypt and some ancient temples somewhere that 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:23.840 matched the Atlantis story. Um, It's it's possible you know, 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.040 they're still digging in that in that area. You know, 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.919 I think they've probably found just about everything they're going 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.320 to find it in Egypt, but it's not impossible, you know, 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:34.919 they could find something that would match it. Um. You know. 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:38.399 The other thing they could do is, you know, find 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:42.080 a place that's located opposite one of the pillars of 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.720 Heracles um. And there are a few there's the most 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:47.960 famous one is the Straits of Gibraltar um, straight of 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.920 Gibraltar in between southern Spain and Morocco, because we've got 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.960 that giant rock of Gibraltar there it's feet high. But 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:57.040 you know, there's also the Straits of messina Um and 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:00.560 a few other spots around the Mediterranean. Um. So if 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:05.760 you found a former you know, capital city type place 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.480 from the ancient world that was hit by a cataclysm 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:13.960 you know, water and earthquakes before Plato's time and also 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:18.000 had some sort of you know, three ring circular structure 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:20.439 attached to it, then I think you would probably have 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.760 to say, wow, there's probably you know a good chunk 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.560 of truth to this, uh, this Atlantis story. Whether that's 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.359 ever gonna happen, who knows, but that that would you 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:32.199 prove it. Yeah, I mean, all of this stuff is 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:34.439 just guesswork because we don't know, you know, there's so 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:38.600 many I mean, there's the problem that Plato does sometimes 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:44.200 use uh, you know, figurative language, and sometimes he is 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.240 you know, he makes jokes. He you know, there's riddles 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.639 and Plato people. You know, people still haven't figured out 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.359 what Plato was talking about, you know, definitively, you know, 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:56.520 and here we are twenty years later. He's probably the 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:59.399 most written about philosopher of all time. So you know, 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:01.040 people peop will come to me and they're like, well, 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:06.320 I need the definitive explanation of I'm a you know, 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:10.040 I'm a guy who writes the travel books exactly. You 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:12.760 kind of touched on this, but maybe you can expand 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:17.119 on it. The way that Atlantis is telling of Atlantis 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:19.680 fits in is like right after the Republic and then 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:23.040 like right before he starts talking about math, the first 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:24.480 part of it, the first part of okay, and then 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:27.159 he talks about it more direct or, and then he 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:30.440 goes into the Tumaus, which is you know, sort of um. 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:34.919 The Tomas is sometimes cited as like the first great 0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:37.760 work of science. You know, it's his way to try 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:40.280 to give a sort of logic. And to back up 0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.840 just a second. You know, Plato was was heavily influenced 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:45.919 by the Pythagoreans um, who were a sort of like 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:51.600 religious cult slash uh, you know, group of math professors 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:56.920 who lived in southern Italy and who. You know, we're 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:02.440 trying to find the athematical and and you know, geometric 0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:05.800 essentially like the secret code behind the universe. It's it's 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:09.000 it's almost like the first attempt to find a physics, 0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:11.880 you know, and explain everything through numbers. You know. At 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:15.000 the same time they're doing very strange things with numbers there, 0:26:15.040 --> 0:26:18.280 you know, to them, numbers are living beings, some numbers 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:21.200 are female, some numbers are male. You know. So there's 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:25.760 there's odd stuff going on with the Pythagoreans as well. Um, 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:29.320 So the Tomaus has a lot of Pythagorean stuff in it. 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:32.280 And then you know, here he is with this this 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.840 you know, first work of science, trying to explain how 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:38.119 the cosmos work, even though the telescope hasn't been invented yet. 0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:40.719 And then to come back to it in a separate 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:45.679 dialogue called the Critios, which immediately follows the Tamaus, and 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:49.240 that's when he gives probably eighty or nine of the 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:54.160 details about the story of Atlantists and what Atlantis looked like, 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:56.920 and you know, measurements, and you know, he talked about 0:26:56.920 --> 0:27:00.560 this enormous plane that was attached to the city of Atlantis, 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:04.320 a field plane, not at like an airplane, although some 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:07.720 have made that some have made that claim as well. 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:10.280 That was hundreds of square miles surrounded by it an 0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:14.520 ormous ditch and yeah, yeah, and as I crossed and stuff, 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:16.199 I did the you know, I did the math on this, 0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:18.679 and it's like, you know, okay, so they dug this 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:20.879 giant canal and I was like, wait a minute, if 0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:22.920 they were going to dig this canal, this would be 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:24.600 like a hundred times the amount of earth that was 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.440 moved to make the Panama Canal. You know, this doesn't 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:31.080 make any sense at all. So you know, it's like, well, okay, 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:34.080 maybe Plato is using these numbers and a Pythagorean sense 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:38.199 that we don't understand. Um, in which case, uh, you know, 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:40.560 we we can't use these numbers as like you know, 0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:45.280 modern GPS coordinates. Maybe he's doing things here that uh, 0:27:45.320 --> 0:27:49.960 you know, had completely been erased overred years that we 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.639 just you know, simply can't understand anymore. Um. You do 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.560 know that the numbers, like you know, he goes, he 0:27:56.680 --> 0:27:59.320 uses stage and I did a little research on stage. 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:01.400 And of course you probably know this too, is that 0:28:01.440 --> 0:28:05.480 there's no actual agreement on what a state was. I've seen. No, 0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:07.960 there's kind of a rough number. Um, you know, like 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:10.320 I said, of a round six hundred feet. But you 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:13.439 know what what people will do a lot is they'll 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:17.320 find a location and then they'll choose the definition of 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:22.800 state that fits their location. You know. And in ancient 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:26.760 Portugal a state was you know, you know, like, well, 0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:30.800 I I'm sure Plato wasn't from ancient Portugal. I think 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:33.080 we I think we know where he was from. U 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:39.400 a few certainties in dealing with Plato in Atlantis. Uh yeah, 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:41.880 so you know that. But you know, there are these 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:44.080 people out there who who are like you know, um, 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:48.240 you know they're like, uh, these you know judges who 0:28:48.320 --> 0:28:52.600 who interpret the constitution uh in a in a fundamental sense. 0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:54.040 It's like, you know, well, this is Joe, this is 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:55.920 what the Founding fathers were thinking on this day when 0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:58.200 they wrote this, And they're like, you know, everything in 0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:00.120 the atlantis has to be true. The numbers all have 0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:02.520 to be true. So you know, they twist their theory 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:06.320 to to fit the numbers, um, and usually it comes out, 0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:09.120 you know, sounding pretty ridiculous. Every once in a while 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:11.640 you see something and you're like, huh, wait a minute, 0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:14.280 that's weird. You know, like when I went up and 0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:18.239 talked to John Bremer, who is um uh. He's been 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:21.800 studying Plato for I think sixty years um and for 0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:25.600 fun he counts the syllables of the ancient you know, 0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:30.240 the ancient Greek versions of of Plato's works, and there's 0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:33.400 his fame. Well, he has found patterns. There's there's a 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:36.320 lot of interesting things, one of which was, you know, 0:29:36.360 --> 0:29:40.479 as I mentioned Plato, was you studied with the Pythagoreans. Um. 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:43.280 You know, the Pythagoreans. One of the reasons why they 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:46.719 thought there might be this secret mathematical code that they 0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:50.360 could crack was that, you know, in according to lore, 0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:53.760 it was Pythagoras himself. But we people generally believe that 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:58.120 anything that Pythagorians found is attributed to Pythagoras. Um. You know, 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:02.920 he was probably the first person outside of maybe some 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:07.240 some Babylonians UM to realize that there was math behind music. 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:09.680 You know, when you make a clear tone. That's because 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:12.800 certain ratios already play here a one to two ratio 0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:15.760 or a two to three ratio. So they established this 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:19.720 twelve note Pythagorean musical scale, the first musical scale that 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.640 we know of UM. And what John Bremer and another 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:28.080 person UH computer scientists in England who confirmed this um 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.920 separately UH found was that in a lot of Plato's works, 0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:36.640 including the Timaeus, he seems to be using a structure 0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:39.880 almost like an outline, based on this twelve note scale. 0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:44.440 And there are twelve parts two the dialogue, and if 0:30:44.440 --> 0:30:47.680 you hit a part like say midway through um, you 0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:49.920 know your six out of twelve here, that's a one 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:54.160 to two ratio, which is which is um um harmonious 0:30:54.200 --> 0:30:57.240 note um. And in those spots Plato tends to be 0:30:57.320 --> 0:30:59.719 writing about good things, about harmonious things. If you hit 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.440 a where it's like seven out of twelve, which is 0:31:02.480 --> 0:31:05.560 not a harmonious note um. And I'm probably butchering the 0:31:05.680 --> 0:31:08.680 terminology here because I don't know music that well, but um, 0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:11.240 you know, that's when he's talking about you know, chaos 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:14.719 and disorder and things like that. Um and you know, 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:18.040 Bremer seemed to think that the structure of Plato's works 0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:22.040 might be you know, every bit as important as the 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:25.120 words themselves, you know, and no one has really dug 0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:27.280 that deep into this. There may be things about this 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:30.040 that we don't even understand yet. And I would say 0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:32.560 that almost certainly there are things about this we don't understand. 0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:36.160 You know, Plato plays all sorts of you know, math 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.760 games and you know, things like that. That the trouble 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:44.280 is that, as somebody, you know, a great uh, you 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:47.880 know Platonists pointed out about a hundred years ago, they said, 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:52.800 you know, the mathematics in Plato is the most difficult 0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:57.400 part of the most difficult philosopher of all time. So 0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:00.680 nobody really wants to take this stuff on. It's kind 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:03.040 of like the Da Vinci code, you know, it is 0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:04.520 in a lot of ways. And there are you know, 0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:07.920 nobody doubts that Plato is making references to things like 0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:12.080 the Fibonacci sequence or the golden ratio in his works. 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:14.560 You know, he's he's you know, and in something like 0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:17.360 his book The Laws, which I think the last dialogue 0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:22.400 he wrote notorious for being like the most uh boring 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:27.200 uh thing that from ancient history. You know. I met 0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:30.040 a philosophy professor and he starts paging three. I was like, 0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:31.680 if you ever read this, He's like, you know, even 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:34.280 people who study Plato don't read the laws, who just 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:38.680 got it just kind of dip into it, you know, 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:41.040 But there are you know, there's the number of fifty forty, 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:43.840 which he calls this this you know, super important number. Well, 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.240 if you break it down, fifty is the sum of 0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:48.200 one times two times three times four times five times 0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:51.760 six times seven, and it appears seven times in the laws. 0:32:52.040 --> 0:32:53.800 So it looks like, you know, at the very least, 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:57.080 Plato is playing some sort of number games here, and 0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.880 you know, the the the idea that he you know, 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:03.240 there's also an instance in the Republic where he refers 0:33:03.280 --> 0:33:07.160 to maybe misquoting this the three and the four attached 0:33:07.200 --> 0:33:09.880 to the pen pad, and somebody pointed out at some 0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:11.480 point they're like, well that's a three or four and 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:15.600 five that's the Pythagorean triangle. So you know, he's dropping 0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:18.480 little hints that there's other stuff going on here. But 0:33:18.600 --> 0:33:21.960 you know, whether anyone's ever going to to decode what 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:25.479 he was doing is you know, you know, the future 0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:28.000 may know that, but I certainly don't, you know, because 0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:32.160 you remember, he's he's not writing these dialogues, you know, 0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:35.320 to be read by a modern audience. Two years later, 0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:39.080 he's using these to teach his students at the Academy 0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:42.120 in Athens, which was the first university. Um. You know, 0:33:42.160 --> 0:33:46.600 he's Tea's teaching a classic pythagoryan uh quadrivium. I think 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:50.240 they called it four part curriculum to students. So they 0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:53.719 whatever he was doing, his students, you know, sitting around 0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:57.520 uh in the garden and Athens, they would have known 0:33:57.520 --> 0:34:00.640 what he was doing, But we have completely lost whatever 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.320 it was. Um. And if you know, if if somebody 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:05.720 can at some point starting to figure that out, maybe 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.600 we'll have a better sense of how much of Atlantis 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:13.440 could have been based on historical events, or or even 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:16.640 just how much of it did Plato himself actually believe. 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:20.440 The answer could be none, the answer could be a lot. Yeah. Well, 0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:22.680 I I tend to think that he believed at least 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:24.560 part of it. And this is something I wanted to 0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:27.680 ask you about. Is he uh, he invokes his ancestors 0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:31.520 Solon and also his mentor Socrates. You know and who 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:34.920 both swear that this is true for Plato and it 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.399 is called in that culture. Would that have been disrespectful 0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:42.200 to an ancestor to basically involved them and attested to 0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:44.880 the truth of a fairy tale? You know it It 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:48.879 might have been. But again, you know, um, I don't 0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:51.640 want to go back into my like post structuralist terminology 0:34:51.680 --> 0:34:53.359 that drove me out of grad school in the early 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:58.360 night that you know, he's using a series of masks here, 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:02.000 you know, he's he could be hiding behind Socrates to 0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:07.919 say something that he wants to uh, you know, play with. 0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:11.560 So we you know, we can't know whether he intended 0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:13.960 that to be real, or whether he you know, was 0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:16.880 using that as some sort of rhetorical device or or 0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:20.040 you know whatnot. Um So, you know, if if we 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:23.759 knew for a fact that this was intended as a 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.160 piece of written history, yes, it would have been disrespectful 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:28.200 for him to put those words in the mouth of 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:31.600 of Socrates or into the mouth of Solon, you know. 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:35.279 But that's that's another thing that we have to deal 0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:38.080 with here. Another layer, which is that written history in 0:35:38.160 --> 0:35:42.839 three six b C. You know, this is still new technology. 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:44.680 This is you know, as far as the Greeks are concerned, 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:46.759 this is technology that's less than a hundred years old. 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:49.719 You know, Herodotus has has you know, the father of 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:52.600 history has just started doing this stuff about a hundred 0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:56.760 years before, you know, writing down history rather than allowing 0:35:56.760 --> 0:36:00.919 it to be passed on orally. And it's when history 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:02.560 has passed on orally, it's done in the form of 0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:05.080 stories which have become myths. You know. So now from 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.480 our vantage point, we have to decode those myths and 0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:09.920 try to pluck the truth out. And this is you know, 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:14.120 this is a lot of what archaeologists and anthropologists do. So, 0:36:14.680 --> 0:36:18.400 you know, Plato, through the character of Socrates, wrestling with 0:36:18.480 --> 0:36:23.000 this idea, you know, is written history true or is 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:26.239 oral history true? Things that are passed down to story 0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:29.920 is true? And I think it's in the republic um. No, 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:31.719 it's actually in a different word, but I can't remember which. 0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:34.600 You know, Socrates comes out and and says, you know, look, 0:36:34.680 --> 0:36:39.040 I actually trust oral history more. I you know, trust 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.720 things that are that are passed down not in writing, 0:36:41.920 --> 0:36:44.560 because you can engage with them, you can argue with them, 0:36:44.600 --> 0:36:46.319 you know, whereas written history is just sort of this 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:48.360 lump right here and you can't. You can't sort of 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:49.920 you know, poke the holes in it. It is what 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:53.560 it is, um, you know. So that's just one more 0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:57.840 gigantic problem sitting in the middle of the attempt to 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:00.880 try to solve the Atlantis story. Yeah. The thing about 0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:03.960 the written history though, is that and this is one 0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:06.760 of the reasons I think that probably this is true, 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:10.000 is that finds that from the Egyptians that the Greek 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.120 at one actually had a written language and they had 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:15.560 lost Well that's you know, that's the half of the 0:37:15.640 --> 0:37:18.960 story that everyone tends to ignore, which is the Athens 0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:22.320 half of the story. And there's a fascinating guy gego 0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:27.480 physicist in Greece named Stavros Papameranapolis, and he's probably the 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:30.000 guy who has done the most work on trying to 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:32.400 figure out that the truth from the fiction in the 0:37:32.440 --> 0:37:34.840 Atlantis story. And he's I mean, he's a real geophysicist. 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:39.120 He's found uh, you know, ancient ancient canals and things 0:37:39.200 --> 0:37:41.880 like that that um, people weren't sure if they were 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:43.680 real or not. And he you know, he went down 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.759 to southern Greece and you know, did the the soundings 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:49.759 and such, and it's like okay, well, Yeah, actually they 0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:52.279 did build this canal where two ships could pass, and 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:53.960 it was a mile long, and that sort of thing. 0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:56.640 And what he has done is he has looked at 0:37:56.719 --> 0:37:59.520 the Athens part of the story and and shown that 0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:03.880 a lot of details that seem completely pointless if you 0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:08.680 just sort of skimmed the story actually coincide with Greek history, 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:10.879 as we've come to understand in the last hundred years. 0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:14.480 You know, he talks about um a spring on the 0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:18.960 north side of the acropolis that was destroyed by an earthquake, 0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:22.080 and well, guess what, in the nineteen thirties they found 0:38:22.160 --> 0:38:26.439 a spring that had been clogged by an earthquake around 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:30.560 which is around the time when uh, you know, in 0:38:30.680 --> 0:38:33.760 the Atlantis story they say, uh, you know, the Greek's 0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.359 lost written language. Well, what did they lose around that time? 0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:41.319 Linear b the famous uh you know uh language that 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:44.640 was decoded in the middle of the twentieth century. Um. 0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:47.440 So there are enough of these details that you know, 0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:49.880 Plato could not have known, you know, unless he was 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.560 he was you know, uh clairvoyant or something, in which 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:57.200 case maybe Edgar Casey was right. You know, he had 0:38:57.239 --> 0:39:00.600 to have some details from the past than he believed 0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:02.719 to be true, and especially those that we're dealing with 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.120 the Greek part of the story. So you know, there's 0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:09.279 enough of that to make me think that, you know this, 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:12.200 there are elements of the Atlantis story that can be 0:39:12.239 --> 0:39:14.839 based in history. But yeah, and I know the like 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:18.799 for me, the part with linear b that always kind 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:22.920 of resonated is that we always in that oral tradition, 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:25.960 there's things that are legends that are told from a 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:28.520 time before, which is why how I always figured that 0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:32.800 he that's why he was making reference to these lost languages, 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.600 less so from what he Solon had gotten from the Egyptians, 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:38.839 but just it was kind of generally known that at 0:39:38.880 --> 0:39:41.279 one time people kind of knew how to do this, 0:39:41.320 --> 0:39:43.479 and we sort of know about it, but we don't 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:46.960 because it's such a huge fan of the oral tradition 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:49.360 that I can see that being passed down. You know, 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:51.279 one time we knew how to write with sticks, but 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:53.920 now we don't. But at the same time, the spring 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:56.799 is a trivial enough thing that you know, you can't 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.200 see people like sitting around the campfire talking about the 0:39:59.200 --> 0:40:01.960 spring on the popolis. I can't quite imagine that. No, 0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:04.400 it's it's not like you know, a grandfather pulling the 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:06.160 young child aside and saying, let me tell you the 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:09.200 story about the spring on the acropolis got exactly. Yeah, 0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:13.680 it's like a three thousand year old liquid plumber commercial. 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:18.120 Or so let's uh. I wanted to I wanted to 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:22.560 to swivel back to Atlantis a little bit. So Atlantis itself, 0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:27.839 the in generally speaking, is pretty well mocked from the 0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:33.320 quote unquote official mainstream perspective. Nobody takes that seriously. Definitely 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:36.799 almost nobody, right, So so my first question is is, 0:40:36.960 --> 0:40:39.120 and and I'll follow this in a second with another, 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:43.040 but how did you sell that you were going to 0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:45.319 write a book on Atlantis when it kind of had 0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:48.759 that stigma. Well, because my publisher, Penguin, you know, they 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:50.960 had done one book with me so far, so they knew, 0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:55.600 you know, I was, you know, a real reporter, a 0:40:55.640 --> 0:40:58.280 real writer. Um. They knew there would be a travel 0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:01.480 component to this as well as just going back and 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:05.200 looking at the original story of Atlantis. Um. And you know, 0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:10.120 they know that, you know, Atlantis is an evergreen story. 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:12.880 You know, it's it's one of, if not the greatest 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:17.200 mystery of all times. So you know, people are fascinated 0:41:17.200 --> 0:41:19.960 by this. You know, it's it's funny because you know, 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:24.640 whenever I post something online, I'll get comments, and you know, 0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:27.840 one of them will be, hey, that's really interesting. I 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.719 never knew that, and nine of them will be you know, 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:35.080 my psychic told me that fifty thousand years ago the 0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:38.600 continent of MW blah blah blah blah blah. So you know, 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.080 a lot of people are just interested in Atlantis for 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:43.440 their own purposes and don't want to hear what anybody 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:45.600 else has to say. But there is a you know, 0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:49.680 a general high level of interest um in Atlantis. And 0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:52.160 I think that's why Penguin said, you know, okay, you're 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:54.600 not crazy, go ahead and write the book. So but 0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:58.120 but why is it? Why then, from that academic perspective, 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:03.120 is the story rather shunned? Well, there's I think there is. 0:42:04.160 --> 0:42:07.759 From you know, a very contemporary perspective, there is just 0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:10.640 sort of a general idea that this is an area 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:13.680 for fringe thinking and nuts and and stuff like that. 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:18.719 You know, it's bigfoot, it's UFOs Um. Specifically, I think 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:21.440 we can trace this back to a guy named Ignatius Donnally, 0:42:21.760 --> 0:42:25.759 one of the great characters of Atlantology. You know, Ignatious 0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:29.360 Donnely is a U S congressman former U S congressman 0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:32.719 in Minnesota in eighteen eighty one. I think it is 0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:36.200 he sits down, he has no money. Uh, so he's 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:39.200 he decides he's going to write a book about Atlantis. 0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:42.280 Then remember this is right after Heinrich Lehman has found 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:44.799 Troy using the clues from the Iliad. So people have 0:42:44.840 --> 0:42:47.760 started to think, hey, you know, if we found Troy, 0:42:47.800 --> 0:42:50.560 and maybe we'll find Atlantis. So he goes and finds 0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:55.880 like every scrap of information that could could possibly you know, 0:42:56.040 --> 0:42:59.800 relate to you know, Atlantis, and you know, some of 0:42:59.840 --> 0:43:01.680 it makes a little bit of sense. You know. He 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:05.240 talks about events that happened in the past, He draws 0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:08.239 parallels to the the Old Testament, and there are you know, 0:43:08.760 --> 0:43:11.040 indications that maybe some of the things that are talking 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:14.279 about in Atlantis may have parallels to um, you know, 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:17.560 the Ten Plagues of Egypt. But then he starts making 0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:20.839 these outlandish claims, like, you know, he's the guy who 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:23.400 came up with the idea that Atlantis sank to the 0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:27.000 bottom of the Atlantic Ocean and the Azores Mountains, uh, 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:29.720 the Azores Islands, that are the tips of the great 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:32.759 mountains of Atlantis, and the Gulf stream upflows the way 0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:35.880 it does because it goes around Atlantis, and he comes, 0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:40.640 you know, he goes into like Mayan history and uh 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:44.839 Egyptian history and Hebrew history and just tries to prove 0:43:44.880 --> 0:43:49.560 that every great culture that uh humanity has ever produced, 0:43:50.239 --> 0:43:53.839 actually it can be traced back to Atlantis, Atlanteans getting 0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:57.440 in boats and sailing off to these different places around 0:43:57.440 --> 0:44:01.600 ten thousand BC. UM. And I think that diffusionism exactly, 0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:05.960 you know, And that's the idea that makes academics really uncomfortable, 0:44:06.360 --> 0:44:09.359 the idea of this super race that once existed. And 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:11.959 this is this is you know, like the light bulb 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:14.520 that draws the moths. For a lot of these people, 0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:17.040 it's like, yes, ten thousand years ago, there was a 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:20.520 super race that you know, created everything we've ever heard of. 0:44:20.560 --> 0:44:22.480 Blah blah blah blah. And you know, even though there's 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:25.319 a mountain of evidence to the contrary, this is an 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:28.279 idea that a lot of people latch onto. Um. And 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:31.760 I think it's it's you know, Donnally and his crazy stuff. 0:44:31.760 --> 0:44:33.640 But I think there's an example I given the book. 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:37.120 I can't remember it precisely, but it was like, uh, 0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:42.200 you know, the Kings of Atlantis referred to a scourge 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:47.840 of the body that they got rid of. And Donnally says, oh, really, well, 0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:51.080 you know what that means. They're referring to syphilis. And 0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:56.640 because the ancient Hebrew performs through coumcision. Uh, and because 0:44:56.960 --> 0:45:00.760 modern actuarial tables show us that Jews tend live longer 0:45:00.800 --> 0:45:05.080 than most other people, we can therefore, you know, draw 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:09.560 the line relatively quickly back to Atlantis. You know, if 0:45:09.600 --> 0:45:12.040 you if if you're reading very quickly, you're like, huh, 0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:13.840 and then do you stop and think about it? For like, 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:16.799 this is nuts? You know, no wonder two thirds of 0:45:16.840 --> 0:45:20.160 the emails I sent off to addresses that ended in 0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:24.600 dot e du never were responded to. You know, this 0:45:24.680 --> 0:45:29.319 is academic kryptonite. Um Ippi a similar thing. You know, 0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:31.960 my phone calls to the FBI regarding DV Cooper so 0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:38.359 far returned. Yeah, like, yeah, we'll get on that one 0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:40.600 right away. You know who else is really big on 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:43.960 on Atlantis, the super Race and uh and all that 0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:46.279 stuff was the Nazis, I mean, Henri Himmler and all 0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:50.319 that stuff. For Atlantis. You know, they had They had 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:53.440 this whole team, the Onitor, but I think it was 0:45:53.520 --> 0:45:56.360 called put together by Himmler. And the whole point was, 0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.280 it's very much like the first Indiana Jones movie reaiders 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:01.840 it a lot of stark. They are looking for ancient 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:06.200 evidence of this super Aryan race that of course eventually 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:09.640 became the most super race of all in their opinion. Um, 0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:13.080 you know, the National Socialists. And what what's interesting is 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:17.719 they had planned, um, a big expedition to the Canary Islands, 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:20.880 which is which is not you know, as far as 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:23.480 possible sites go, it's not the worst one you can 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:27.799 come up with, uh, for the Fall of nine. And 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:30.480 it seems that the reason they never got there is 0:46:30.520 --> 0:46:37.120 because the Nazis decided to attack Poland instead. So it's like, wait, 0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:39.719 just one more bad thing to come out of that 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.120 whole era. But yeah, I mean they were the theories, 0:46:42.160 --> 0:46:45.000 the theories they were promoting were just completely nuts. I mean, 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.520 going back tens of thousands of years and things like that. 0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:51.440 And you know, because stuff like that is interesting to 0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:54.160 a lot of people. Uh, it just it gives this 0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:58.080 tinge to Atlantis in general. That makes it sound like, 0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:01.399 you know, a subject that's only dealt with by crazy people. Um. 0:47:01.440 --> 0:47:03.640 And I don't think that should be the case. But 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:06.359 what what do you think it's gonna take. I mean, 0:47:06.360 --> 0:47:09.000 what would we have to find before it would suddenly 0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:12.719 come out of that that fringe into the limelight and 0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:14.960 people would be willing to take it seriously? Well, I 0:47:15.000 --> 0:47:18.880 think you'd have to find either of someone discovering what 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:22.520 the pattern is with these numbers that Plato is using. 0:47:22.880 --> 0:47:25.880 You know, he uses dozens of numbers in the second 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:28.719 part of the Atlantis story, um that you know, like 0:47:28.760 --> 0:47:33.000 I mentioned, people have latched onto like their GPS coordinates, um, 0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:34.760 you know, and can be used to find a city 0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:37.239 of an exact size and this gigantic plane of an 0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:41.640 exact size. You know, if if somebody could decode those 0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:44.239 numbers and figure out what Plato was actually doing there 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:47.400 and if it was actually referring to something that we 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:49.880 can understand, I think that would be one form of proof. 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:52.279 The other form of proof, of course, would be to 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:56.120 find some sort of ancient inscription in Egypt, you know, 0:47:56.239 --> 0:47:59.960 something that matches the story that sold On supposedly originally 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:03.799 heard around five or six hundred BC. UM. And the 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:06.800 other thing would be, you know, if someone could pile 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:11.080 up enough evidence, if someone could say, okay, uh Plato 0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:13.960 said it was opposite a land called Goddis, Well here's 0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:18.160 you know, there's Kadi's in southern Spain, there's Agadir and Morocco. 0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:21.560 Both of those come from the Phoenician word godir, meaning 0:48:21.719 --> 0:48:24.000 an enclosed city. So if you know, if you can 0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:27.640 find one of these old godders that is near uh, 0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:30.680 you know, one of the pillars of Heracles and shows 0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:35.000 evidence that, uh, you know, a civilization of some sort 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:39.520 was struck suddenly by earthquakes and floods and was destroyed. 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:42.080 And if there are you know, some elements of the 0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:44.200 description that Plato gives, if there is you know, some 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.279 sort of concentric circles there, then I think the preponderance 0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:49.880 of evidence would would say, okay, you know what this is, 0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:52.680 there's probably a large kernel of truth at the center 0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:55.680 of this. You know, whether any of those is going 0:48:55.719 --> 0:48:58.560 to happen, I you know, I honestly couldn't say, but 0:48:58.880 --> 0:49:00.920 one of those three things, I think would would certainly 0:49:00.920 --> 0:49:03.839 move the needle back toward Okay, Atlantis has has got 0:49:03.840 --> 0:49:06.319 a lot of truth in it, yeah, I think, And 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:07.600 this is one of the one of the problems that 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:10.560 I have with the whole thing is like, so the 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:13.480 pillars of Heracles could have been many places, as there's been. 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:16.760 You know, the time that Plato was writing, the Greeks 0:49:16.760 --> 0:49:20.480 had actually been exploring and colonizing the western Mediterranean for 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:23.160 a couple hundred years as as far as I understand, 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:27.200 So for them, the Pillars of Heracles must have been 0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:32.120 the straighter Gibraltar. But at the same time, if Athens 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:35.840 and Atlantis were both wiped out the same day, and 0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:39.560 that means that Atlantis had to be inside the pillars 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:42.120 of Heracles. And yet the most likely side I think 0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:44.200 is is Spain. So this is one of the things 0:49:44.239 --> 0:49:48.160 I'm wondering about. Is um, is it really totally under 0:49:48.200 --> 0:49:50.520 present true that they were wiped out the very same 0:49:50.600 --> 0:49:57.440 day by the same cataclysm or honestly pent clarity on that. 0:49:58.000 --> 0:50:02.239 Come on, man, this was a three thousand year old 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:05.360 story passed down maybe or maybe not through at least 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:08.839 you know, three or four pairs of hands. Um. That's 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:11.160 why we called you Mark. I know, I know I 0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:15.719 would know two things. One, you know, with ancient myths 0:50:15.760 --> 0:50:18.120 of this sort, there is I can't remember the term 0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:20.719 off the top of my head, um where a bunch 0:50:20.760 --> 0:50:23.719 of things tend to come together, so they you know, 0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:26.560 there could be two or three stories that are combined 0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:30.239 into one story. So you know, hypothetically Rome could be 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:33.359 destroyed in an earthquake tomorrow and that could you know, 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:37.040 be put together with the story of Lisbon in seventeen 0:50:37.080 --> 0:50:40.520 fifty five being destroyed by an earthquake, and ten thousand 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:42.399 years from now, people are gonna say, oh, those things 0:50:42.400 --> 0:50:45.200 happened at the same time. Um, you know, just hypothetically. 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:49.160 You know, the other thing is and and this is 0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:53.960 much more interesting. Around the time that you know, linear 0:50:54.000 --> 0:50:59.880 b disappears, when this group called the Sea People's uh 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:02.080 which is a still very mysterious group that seems to 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:05.319 have shown up in various places around the Mediterranean and 0:51:05.400 --> 0:51:09.279 start you know, attacked suddenly from the sea. Around the 0:51:09.320 --> 0:51:11.560 same time that that those things are happening, there is 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:18.920 this wave of earthquakes, floods, famines, you know, just generally 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.280 bad news. I think the dates are roughly twelve fifty 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:24.360 b C E to eleven fifty b C. And that 0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:28.200 there's a great term I can't remember exactly. It's it's 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:33.920 like seismological unzipping there making a fault line in the 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:38.239 Mediterranean that just caused all sorts of chaos. And you know, 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:41.120 one place has no food for two or three years. 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:43.240 So they get on their boats and they attack Egypt. 0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:46.240 They attacked the Hittites and what in what is now Turkey. 0:51:46.320 --> 0:51:50.000 You know, they end up in Israel. Um. So it's 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:54.960 possible that there were two cataclysms occurring roughly at the 0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:59.400 same time in Athens and wherever um. You know, the 0:51:59.560 --> 0:52:02.160 the ration for Atlantis. What it is not at all 0:52:02.200 --> 0:52:05.560 impossible that in this period of chaos, which is is 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:09.640 a um. It's it's not proven historically, but it's generally 0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:12.480 regarded as true historically. Historians pop won't argue about the 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:16.200 sea People's or about this, you know um, this period 0:52:16.200 --> 0:52:19.000 of great chaos. And there are actually like little fragments 0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:21.720 I think a pottery from the Hittites and such where 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:25.320 the king of Um is that the king of the Hittites, 0:52:26.280 --> 0:52:28.400 I can't remember, but it's it's, you know, whatever the 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:32.040 group was before the Phoenicians. There's a communication between one 0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:34.760 and the other where they're basically saying, we're being attacked, 0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:36.640 come save us. And it seems to be the same 0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:40.160 people who attacked Egypt around the same time. So whatever 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:42.920 was going on, it was you know where it was 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.960 really bad. There was famine, etcetera, etcetera. And this may 0:52:46.000 --> 0:52:48.759 also be, uh, you know, the same thing that that 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:51.839 wiped out Linear be wiped out whatever the Greek culture was. 0:52:52.400 --> 0:52:54.879 Now that we call that the Manoans, but obviously they 0:52:54.880 --> 0:52:58.240 weren't the Manoans at the time. Yeah. I wondered about 0:52:58.280 --> 0:53:00.840 that that like a string of earth quicks or maybe 0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:03.719 and I'll probably get an email from a volcanologist or 0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:09.480 geologist about this, but yeah, an earthquake could have touched 0:53:09.480 --> 0:53:13.440 off the volcano in Santorini e Thera and caused interruption 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:15.719 of that, which of course wiped out a very ancient city, 0:53:15.760 --> 0:53:18.040 their Acriteri, which you paid a visit to in your book, 0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:20.600 by the way, I did. I did, And you know, 0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:24.359 Acritaria is fascinating and there are parallels with Atlantis, you know, 0:53:24.360 --> 0:53:29.120 but I think what the reason why Acriteri and Um 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:33.719 Santorini are still appealing to you know, those academics who 0:53:33.760 --> 0:53:36.080 are willing to even discuss Atlantis, is that we've got 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:40.040 some concrete evidence there, you know, there obviously was a 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:44.680 huge explosion. There obviously was a maritime culture there. Um. 0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:50.600 But you know, beyond that, the parallels with Plato are 0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:53.000 you know, not really that strong. But I think, you know, 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:55.280 people say want to say, okay, we have some evidence 0:53:55.280 --> 0:53:58.800 of something here. Um, you know, why don't we relate 0:53:58.840 --> 0:54:01.279 it to the Atlantis story. My my guess is that 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:05.720 if it was based on one cataclysmic event, it's probably 0:54:05.760 --> 0:54:07.880 a different one. Um. And I should point out that 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:10.000 the explosion of there it does not match up with 0:54:10.040 --> 0:54:12.879 those that seismic gun zipping or whatever the exact term 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:15.920 is um that there are. They still haven't nailed it down. 0:54:15.920 --> 0:54:20.359 To the archaeologists who base it on pottery, I think 0:54:20.360 --> 0:54:25.400 they want to say it's around and then based on 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:27.960 some sort of carbon dating, they say it's around sixteen 0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:31.640 ten sixteen fifteen BC, So they know roughly when it was, 0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:34.080 but they don't know exactly when it was. Um. But 0:54:34.120 --> 0:54:36.880 that's it. You know, Acriterias is fascinating. The whole island, 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:41.680 island of Santorini is you know, amazingly beautiful. So highly 0:54:41.680 --> 0:54:43.239 recommend just that if you want to check it out 0:54:43.239 --> 0:54:45.480 for yourself. Now I totally want to go there and 0:54:45.480 --> 0:54:47.799 and luckily I was Luckily I was able to visit 0:54:47.800 --> 0:54:52.920 it via Google street View, and and I've actually driven 0:54:52.960 --> 0:54:56.160 all over the island on Google uh. And And this 0:54:56.360 --> 0:54:59.000 really kind of annoys me is that I wanted to 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.880 take a similar to of Malta, and you can't do 0:55:01.920 --> 0:55:05.120 street view on Malta. You look at Google Pictures, but 0:55:05.160 --> 0:55:08.239 there ain't no street view. That's interesting. Malta is a 0:55:08.280 --> 0:55:11.600 strange place. It's a very I mean, it's like a 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:15.759 a fortress mentality inside an island that is set up 0:55:15.800 --> 0:55:19.560 like a fortress. So it shocked me to hear that 0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:22.719 the Maltese didn't want Google on their island. That would 0:55:23.400 --> 0:55:25.640 you know, That wouldn't shock me at all. It's a 0:55:25.719 --> 0:55:28.560 it's a it's a strange place. Um. As I think 0:55:28.560 --> 0:55:30.719 I mentioned in the book. It one of the first 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.360 things I realized when I was there is they it 0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:38.000 had like the greatest percentage of beautiful women and fat 0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:40.400 men I had ever seen in my life. So I 0:55:40.440 --> 0:55:43.080 don't know, if you know, the mating rules are different 0:55:43.080 --> 0:55:48.319 in Malta, but I've heard things about Brazil that could 0:55:48.360 --> 0:55:51.640 be that could very well be. Yeah, um, you know, 0:55:51.719 --> 0:55:54.719 but Malta is fascinating because they have those ancient temples 0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:57.880 there um, which you know, a thousand years older than 0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:00.640 I think even the Great Pyramid in Egypt. And Malta 0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:03.840 was destroyed suddenly by a cataclysm that wiped out the population, 0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:07.480 apparently a long time before Plato was writing. Um, you know, 0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:11.400 it's an island, it's near the straits of messina Um. 0:56:11.480 --> 0:56:15.280 So you know, I think Malta is a more appealing 0:56:15.320 --> 0:56:18.480 candidate probably than Santorini, just you know, based on comparing 0:56:18.480 --> 0:56:21.600 it to Plato's original story. Um, you know that said 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:24.400 I came up with four candidates in the book. There 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:27.000 are others that are you know, not far behind. You know, 0:56:27.440 --> 0:56:31.799 we can't have two original Atlantis. Is it's possible, you know, 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:34.600 one or two or three cataclysms were put together in 0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:37.080 one story. But it's it's you know, it's not as 0:56:37.080 --> 0:56:38.960 neat a packages we would hope it would be. What 0:56:39.000 --> 0:56:41.920 are your what are your feelings about the kind of 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:43.799 more out there? I mean, you know people have said 0:56:43.800 --> 0:56:46.560 it's on the east coast, or it's you know, an antarctic, 0:56:47.000 --> 0:56:50.880 or what's your sense about that? You know, I I 0:56:50.960 --> 0:56:55.839 have very little patients for that stuff, because you know, 0:56:55.920 --> 0:56:59.759 it's it's carry yeah, the earth crust displaced, and it's like, 0:57:00.280 --> 0:57:02.960 you know, uh, you know, look at this map. It 0:57:03.120 --> 0:57:06.600 matches this map of Atlantis. It's like, okay, a the 0:57:06.640 --> 0:57:09.720 map of Antarctica you're you're using, which your cherry picking, 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:13.680 is from the nineteen fifties. We have a lot more recent, 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:18.560 uh maps than that, you know, be as I confirmed 0:57:18.560 --> 0:57:20.320 when I was in Alaska a few weeks ago and 0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:22.560 they're talking about how the land is rising because the 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:26.800 glaciers are melting um there's isostatic rebound, which means that 0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:30.120 in Atlantic Antarctica that had no ice on it would 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:32.800 be much further out of the water and have a 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:35.640 very different shape. So don't tell me this looks like this, 0:57:36.080 --> 0:57:41.000 and see the map of Atlantis that you're comparing it 0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:43.840 to is something that a guy drew in sixteen sixty 0:57:43.920 --> 0:57:49.200 six and just kind of made up, you know, you know, 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:52.800 so so you know, I don't think, you know. And 0:57:52.840 --> 0:57:55.000 then they're like, well, I think that map was actually 0:57:55.040 --> 0:57:57.600 passed down from so long. It's like, you know, Plato 0:57:57.640 --> 0:58:00.080 doesn't say anything about a map. As far as we know, 0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:03.160 people were not drawing maps, you know, at that time. 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:05.600 So the you know, the idea that you know, we 0:58:05.680 --> 0:58:08.640 have an ancient map, while totally cool and the basis 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.760 for a great fictional movie, uh, it makes you know, 0:58:11.880 --> 0:58:14.680 no no sense logically, Yeah, I gotta agree with that. 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:17.400 So we're left with, um, I don't know, the middle 0:58:17.400 --> 0:58:19.919 of the Mediterranean or maybe the coast of Spain. I'm 0:58:20.000 --> 0:58:24.840 I'm discounting Morocco because if they did indeed kind of 0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:26.760 canal to the sea, then the canal would have had 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:29.680 to have been many hundreds of feet deep. So you know, 0:58:30.320 --> 0:58:32.400 you know, it's like I said, it's possible that they 0:58:32.440 --> 0:58:36.640 had um a settlement on the coast as well as 0:58:36.680 --> 0:58:40.200 this circular ring thing, which is extremely cool. There's probably 0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:43.280 the most interesting circular ring, you know, the thing I 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:47.120 saw in all my time, um around the Mediterranean. You know. 0:58:47.160 --> 0:58:50.520 But my guess is if it did exist in you know, 0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:53.200 some form similar to what Plato described, it was probably 0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:56.440 in the western Mediterranean, um. You know. And there's a 0:58:56.440 --> 0:59:01.400 lot of information being past worth mouth by you know, sailors, 0:59:01.520 --> 0:59:06.080 the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, um around that time, and you knows, 0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:08.880 as I point out in the book, remember um, the 0:59:09.800 --> 0:59:14.440 part of the Mediterranean near the Strait of Gibraltar is um, 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:17.360 you know, run by the Carthaginians around the time of Plato. 0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:22.240 So you know, they're passing false propaganda back to the 0:59:22.280 --> 0:59:24.520 Greek saying like, you know, here's all the crazy stuff 0:59:24.520 --> 0:59:28.080 that's going on outside the mouth of the Mediterranean. Don't 0:59:28.080 --> 0:59:30.600 go out there, you know, because here's what you're going 0:59:30.680 --> 0:59:34.880 to encounter. Um right, exactly did some of the game 0:59:35.040 --> 0:59:38.520 that get tied in with uh, you know the stories 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:41.440 of Plato heard while he was visiting Syracuse, you know, 0:59:41.520 --> 0:59:44.680 after the death of Socrates, who knows, who knows? You know. Unfortunately, 0:59:44.680 --> 0:59:46.440 we you know, we can't just go back to the 0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:51.320 original sources here, um bus. Information was not invented like 0:59:51.400 --> 0:59:53.840 this yesterday, no no, no, no, no, no, no no for 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:58.600 a while exactly exactly so now, but I would guess 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:02.680 probably blee, you know, somewhere in the western Mediterranean. What 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:05.760 I was I was talking to Stavros Papa Mironopolis not 1:00:05.800 --> 1:00:08.200 too long ago, or emailing with him. Um. What he 1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:12.160 wants to do is a major survey of the site 1:00:12.200 --> 1:00:15.880 in southern Spain, you know, major geophysical survey which has 1:00:15.920 --> 1:00:19.280 not yet been done. Unfortunately that the spot he wants 1:00:19.320 --> 1:00:24.680 to look at is in a nature reserve, well, you 1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:26.960 know Dunyana National Park. It would be like going to 1:00:27.000 --> 1:00:30.040 the middle of uh, you know, Yosemite with a bunch 1:00:30.080 --> 1:00:33.720 of ground penetrating radar and things like that, being like, okay, 1:00:34.200 --> 1:00:37.439 just animals stepped aside for a little while, it's gonna 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:39.880 be I know that this particular side has also been proposed. 1:00:40.200 --> 1:00:42.919 This is near Cadiz, Spain, has been proposed. Is also 1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:47.120 possibly the side of Tar Tessos the lawsuit. And you 1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:52.080 talked to one academic who claimed that a massive tsunami 1:00:52.160 --> 1:00:54.720 had wiped out this city, which he believes with Atlantis, 1:00:54.720 --> 1:00:56.919 and that there were just tons and tons and tons 1:00:57.000 --> 1:01:00.840 of like stones and stone blocks from the city in 1:01:00.920 --> 1:01:03.880 the ocean. That it true or is that did he 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:06.360 just kind of make no? I think I think that 1:01:06.480 --> 1:01:10.360 was exaggerated. That was a TV version of events. Um, 1:01:10.480 --> 1:01:12.920 what happened is that a guy came in with a 1:01:12.960 --> 1:01:18.720 TV crew and they wanted, um, a documentary on Atlantis. 1:01:18.760 --> 1:01:22.880 So they kind of took work that one team of 1:01:23.040 --> 1:01:26.520 Spaniards was doing in the area and sort of twisted 1:01:26.520 --> 1:01:29.720 it into this more Atlantean thing that showed up on TV. 1:01:30.040 --> 1:01:32.920 And everyone except the guy who sort of parachuted in 1:01:33.000 --> 1:01:36.040 from the US. Uh was you know, shocked when the 1:01:36.040 --> 1:01:38.360 thing came out there, like, what what the hell is this? 1:01:39.600 --> 1:01:41.960 From your book? I gathered they weren't they weren't too pleased. 1:01:41.960 --> 1:01:44.000 But no, they were not, you know. I mean that 1:01:44.240 --> 1:01:47.240 one of the guys who was with him, this this 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:52.200 other German named Rhiner Cune. You know, he's he's a physicist. Uh, 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:55.800 he's got as Berger's so he is like, you know, 1:01:56.280 --> 1:01:59.680 speaking you know, pure truth. He is unable to lie 1:01:59.720 --> 1:02:01.640 about anything. And when I asked him about this, he 1:02:01.720 --> 1:02:05.920 said how did he put He's like, well, they are 1:02:05.960 --> 1:02:09.880 there with the TV crew they can say like the Spaniards, 1:02:09.880 --> 1:02:13.400 Oh look, maybe this was a horse enclosure from the 1:02:13.440 --> 1:02:16.000 fourteenth century a d. No one is going to give 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:18.160 you money for that. So then they turned to me 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:22.640 and I say, maybe this was Atlantis or maybe not. 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:25.440 So they put me on TV for maybe two minutes 1:02:25.560 --> 1:02:28.560 actually I think it was one minute and thirty two seconds. 1:02:29.200 --> 1:02:32.560 So then they turned to the other man and he says, yes, 1:02:32.600 --> 1:02:34.840 this was Atlantis, and I found stones in the water 1:02:34.920 --> 1:02:37.000 and everything, and that is how they make their money 1:02:37.000 --> 1:02:42.600 for the TV show exactly. Yeah, I think Rehner's version 1:02:42.640 --> 1:02:46.120 of events is about as unfiltered as it can get. That. Yeah, 1:02:46.160 --> 1:02:48.800 that sounds about right to me. All Right, So you 1:02:48.840 --> 1:02:51.280 guys have any more you want to talk about. No, 1:02:51.400 --> 1:02:53.800 I was gonna say, Mark, we've I know, we we've 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:56.320 taken up an hour of your afternoon already and don't 1:02:56.320 --> 1:02:59.040 want to take up too much more. Yeah, No, it's fine, 1:02:59.040 --> 1:03:01.720 it's fine. Is so. I mean, we've asked a bunch 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:04.840 of questions so far, and I think we're kind of 1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:08.320 running through. So just from your perspective, is there things 1:03:08.480 --> 1:03:12.080 about Atlantis or the story of Atlantis that you want 1:03:12.120 --> 1:03:14.680 people to know that that we haven't come up or 1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:18.120 come across so far to in today's conversation. You know, 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:22.800 I think the thing that is really fun about the 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:27.400 Atlantis story is that you know this, this is it's 1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:31.440 it's like a puzzle to be decoded, and nobody has 1:03:31.480 --> 1:03:33.840 decoded it. And you know, everybody is so busy coming 1:03:33.920 --> 1:03:36.560 up with these crazy theories about how there was a 1:03:36.640 --> 1:03:39.760 you know, tropical paradise on Antarctica and then suddenly the 1:03:39.800 --> 1:03:43.320 Earth's crust shifted and it was covered by two miles 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:47.520 of ice um or you know, the world was you know, 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:50.640 thrown into the orbit of a comment or you know this, 1:03:50.800 --> 1:03:52.960 you know, stuff that people were talking about fifty years ago. 1:03:53.440 --> 1:03:56.440 You know, if you just sit down and look at 1:03:56.480 --> 1:03:59.760 the story and read a little bit about Plato and 1:03:59.800 --> 1:04:02.480 the things that he was talking about, you realize that 1:04:02.560 --> 1:04:05.200 there is it's like a treasure map that no one 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:09.360 has figured out yet. You know, there's there's probably some 1:04:09.440 --> 1:04:11.680 sort of musical code buried in there. There's probably some 1:04:11.680 --> 1:04:15.439 sort of numerical you know, number of games buried in there. 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:19.720 There's probably, I would guess, you know, greater than chance 1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:22.800 that there is the kernel of a historic event or 1:04:22.800 --> 1:04:25.600 maybe a series of historic defense in there. So, you know, 1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:29.160 rather than coming at it as I've got an idea 1:04:29.200 --> 1:04:31.480 of where Atlantis is and I'm going to you know, 1:04:31.560 --> 1:04:34.840 sort of retrofit this and look for evidence and cherry 1:04:34.880 --> 1:04:38.880 pick what I want to prove my theory. Um, you know, 1:04:39.080 --> 1:04:42.840 go in there and look at what's there, and you know, 1:04:43.040 --> 1:04:45.320 do a little research. There's a lot to be found 1:04:45.320 --> 1:04:48.800 out about this Atlantis story, and you know, if it 1:04:48.840 --> 1:04:52.160 does turn out to be largely true, it will you know, 1:04:52.920 --> 1:04:55.280 I don't know, maybe you know, rewrite a good chunk 1:04:55.320 --> 1:04:57.440 of ancient history and if not. There's gonna be a 1:04:57.480 --> 1:04:59.920 lot of other interesting things to be found in there. Well, 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:02.400 there's uh, there's certainly no shortage of interesting stuff at 1:05:02.400 --> 1:05:06.160 the bottom of the ocean, I'm sure, because after the 1:05:06.240 --> 1:05:08.720 end of the last glacial period, I mean, the sea 1:05:08.760 --> 1:05:12.680 levels rose hugely, and so there's down there. You know. 1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:14.560 I went up and I talked to the guys at 1:05:14.560 --> 1:05:18.800 woods Hole who you know, found the uh, the Titanic, 1:05:19.320 --> 1:05:21.040 and they're showing, you know, all this stuff that they 1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:22.400 can use. It's like, you know, hey, we have a 1:05:22.480 --> 1:05:25.760 camera that if the water is clear, uh, you know, 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.080 we can see a cinder block from a mile away. 1:05:28.600 --> 1:05:31.280 And I said, Tom, They're like, you know, think about it, 1:05:31.400 --> 1:05:35.040 ten thousand years ago, fifteen thousand years ago, sea levels 1:05:35.040 --> 1:05:38.000 are rising. Um, we've already got we know there were 1:05:38.200 --> 1:05:41.920 settlements around the Mediterranean even and you know, look at 1:05:42.120 --> 1:05:43.960 the I can't remember how to pronounce the name of 1:05:44.000 --> 1:05:45.800 the place in Turkey was about ten thousand years go, 1:05:45.840 --> 1:05:50.680 Bigley Tepe or whatever. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, So you 1:05:50.720 --> 1:05:54.320 know we know that there were fairly large settlements, fairly 1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:57.440 large you know, uh structures and things like that. And 1:05:57.480 --> 1:06:01.440 he said, you know, where do you build a settlement, 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:03.640 a city in the ancient world. You hit it where 1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:06.600 you put it, where a river hits the sea. Well, 1:06:06.640 --> 1:06:09.080 what are the first places to disappear when the water 1:06:09.120 --> 1:06:15.040 starts rising by ten fift you know, a floodplain where 1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:17.240 the river hits the sea. And you know, so many 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:22.080 of these places have never really been looked at. Um, 1:06:22.120 --> 1:06:27.400 you know, to a really granular degree. Um. And he said, 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:30.360 I said, you know, well, why don't people do this? 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:33.720 Could you, you know, could you begin to start to 1:06:33.760 --> 1:06:36.040 think about, you know, where these places might be hitting 1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:38.240 sort of waves me off. He's like, we can start 1:06:38.280 --> 1:06:41.840 tomorrow if we had the money. So it's not that 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:44.240 these things are impossible, it's just that, you know, there 1:06:44.280 --> 1:06:46.520 isn't the money to to, you know, go around with 1:06:46.560 --> 1:06:49.640 a submarine and look for the lost cities of the Mediterranean. 1:06:50.080 --> 1:06:51.840 But I think, you know, as as you know, the 1:06:51.840 --> 1:06:54.040 price of things fall over time. UM. I think we'll 1:06:54.120 --> 1:06:56.720 keep coming up with interesting stuff that's out there. I hope. 1:06:58.600 --> 1:07:02.080 I think that they're probably if they responded by emails. Ever, 1:07:02.960 --> 1:07:08.600 I think a huge fleet of autonomous underwater vehicles mapping 1:07:08.600 --> 1:07:12.240 the ocean floor could actually find a lot of interesting stuff. 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:14.360 And and you know, I mean, let's face it, Google 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:15.840 is going to have to be the one probably to 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:18.280 do this or someone like that, you know. I mean 1:07:18.280 --> 1:07:20.920 the other problem is that, you know, would what you 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:22.760 know used to occur to me at three o'clock in 1:07:22.760 --> 1:07:25.600 the morning while writing this book was you know, the 1:07:25.920 --> 1:07:29.320 chances are if there was in Atlantis on the coast 1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:32.600 of the western Mediterranean, you know, it's probably under a 1:07:32.600 --> 1:07:38.640 condo complex or a golf course exactly. You know, you know, 1:07:38.760 --> 1:07:41.400 one of the great mysteries of all time might be 1:07:41.440 --> 1:07:44.280 you know, sitting at the bottom of a landfill in 1:07:44.520 --> 1:07:47.640 you know, the Costa delle Soult. Absolutely. You know. That's 1:07:47.640 --> 1:07:50.040 the sad thing about ancient history too, is you know, 1:07:50.120 --> 1:07:52.640 I've I've studied a little bit of Greek history, etcetera. 1:07:53.400 --> 1:07:55.240 Back in the day, you know, they'd like, you know, 1:07:55.440 --> 1:07:57.800 overrun a city, kill all the men, sell the women 1:07:57.800 --> 1:08:00.040 and children into slavery, and then just as mats of 1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:02.960 the city and destroy it. Yeah. So it's it's kind 1:08:03.000 --> 1:08:06.080 of sad all this stuff that's been just destroyed, and 1:08:06.080 --> 1:08:07.960 it you know, it continues to this day in in 1:08:08.200 --> 1:08:10.720 you know Macco where I went. You know, they're pulverizing 1:08:10.760 --> 1:08:14.520 these ancient ruins to make paint. You know, um in 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:17.840 Peru where I wrote about Machu Pichu. You know, there's 1:08:17.840 --> 1:08:20.760 a city outside or a structure outside of the city 1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:25.120 of Cousco called Saxa woman that you know, if that 1:08:25.320 --> 1:08:29.160 we're still intact as it was. You know, when the 1:08:29.200 --> 1:08:32.400 Spaniards arrived in fifteen thirty two. The descriptions they give, 1:08:32.439 --> 1:08:35.040 it's like it's like the size of a battleship but 1:08:35.200 --> 1:08:37.240 made of stone. And we still don't know exactly what 1:08:37.280 --> 1:08:39.880 it was there for. But over the next you know, 1:08:40.160 --> 1:08:44.559 four hundred something years, every time, you know, uh, jose 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:47.960 Blow wants to build, you know, an extension on his bar, 1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:50.599 and he goes up to Saxo woman pulled down these 1:08:50.680 --> 1:08:53.720 nicely cut rocks, carts him off, and uh, you know 1:08:54.040 --> 1:08:56.320 it builds an extension on his house or whatever. So, 1:08:56.880 --> 1:09:00.680 you know, the same thing the Great Wallet's China. That's 1:09:00.720 --> 1:09:04.120 some of the problems, yeah, is that for for centuries, 1:09:04.520 --> 1:09:08.439 local guys have just been stealing rocks right and right 1:09:08.640 --> 1:09:10.639 just to make their house or their fence or whatever 1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:13.439 they needed right. So you know, just to think of 1:09:13.479 --> 1:09:15.960 the things that we are never going to know because 1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:19.559 they've been repurposed. Um, and I'm sure we're doing stupid 1:09:19.560 --> 1:09:21.320 stuff like right that right now, but we just haven't 1:09:21.320 --> 1:09:24.120 realized what it is yet. Um No, I really appreciate 1:09:24.120 --> 1:09:26.280 you taking the time to talk with this. This was 1:09:26.360 --> 1:09:29.840 fantastic pleasure. I love your podcast, and I appreciate you 1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:31.200 know the fact that you guys were able to get 1:09:31.240 --> 1:09:34.000 together on a Saturday morning. Um. I know it's not 1:09:34.240 --> 1:09:38.120 always easy to herd cats, so I really appreciate that. 1:09:39.160 --> 1:09:41.080 We appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. 1:09:41.760 --> 1:09:45.240 And by the way, the book was great. Highly recommend it. 1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:47.840 Meet me in Atlantis. I say it it. You know. 1:09:47.880 --> 1:09:50.759 It did okay in a hardcover, but now that's in paperback. 1:09:50.840 --> 1:09:53.559 It's selling pretty well. What that means, I don't know. 1:09:53.880 --> 1:09:56.760 And maybe you know people who like Atlantis are only 1:09:56.800 --> 1:10:01.280 willing to pay twelve dollars from I could just killing 1:10:01.640 --> 1:10:04.559 you know. We we have about three listeners, so I'm 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:05.840 sure at least a lot of that mus got to 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:08.200 buy a copy of the book. I'll check the iTunes 1:10:08.280 --> 1:10:11.160 comments and see that's so. Just so you have an 1:10:11.200 --> 1:10:13.759 idea when we get close, I'll send you an email 1:10:14.000 --> 1:10:16.120 just so you know it's coming out. Oh cool, I 1:10:16.160 --> 1:10:18.800 appreciate that. I so you don't spend an hour and 1:10:18.800 --> 1:10:20.840 a half talking to three Yahoo's and then it never 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:24.559 goes out. And I mean, you know, you guys are pros. 1:10:24.600 --> 1:10:28.360 You know what to do. Yeah, we're pros, right, you 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:31.160 trust me if you could, if you know, in like 1:10:31.200 --> 1:10:34.000 the first forty eight hours after a hardcover book comes out, 1:10:34.360 --> 1:10:36.839 you essentially have to agree to do every single interview. 1:10:37.600 --> 1:10:42.000 So do you know how many drive time Yah? Who's 1:10:42.360 --> 1:10:46.120 uh you know I had to talk to about Atlantis? Yeah, 1:10:46.280 --> 1:10:58.040 and the questions they're just like level the actually have 1:10:58.120 --> 1:11:01.400 a conversation, you know, did you try on the Bahamas? 1:11:01.520 --> 1:11:05.800 Heard the Atlantis down there really nice? Now they've got that, 1:11:05.840 --> 1:11:08.120 They've got that whole road system down there in the Bahamas. 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:10.960 As someone who worked on a cruise ship in the Bahamas, 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:16.639 that Atlantas not nice as it turns out. We hope 1:11:16.640 --> 1:11:19.519 that one gets hit by earthquakes and floods. Yeah, I hope. 1:11:21.840 --> 1:11:25.439 It's so occasionally I do that George Nourry Coast to 1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:28.880 Coast show when it is out, you know, and George 1:11:28.920 --> 1:11:30.800 is actually okay, he's you know, he's crazy, He's like, 1:11:30.840 --> 1:11:34.360 you know, Aliens really coming to take our guns. Um, 1:11:34.960 --> 1:11:37.479 you know, but if he'll allow you to direct the 1:11:37.520 --> 1:11:41.799 conversation back to uh, you know, sort of normal territory. 1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:44.559 And a lot of the times when I do shows 1:11:44.600 --> 1:11:47.440 like that, it's because I always think of like, um, 1:11:47.479 --> 1:11:49.360 you know, have you you ever seen the book Chariots of 1:11:49.400 --> 1:11:53.040 the Gods. Oh yeah, I don't know how much Tony 1:11:53.080 --> 1:11:55.760 O'Connell told me. I heard Ira Glass tell almost the 1:11:55.800 --> 1:11:59.040 identical story. There's so many people who came to things 1:11:59.120 --> 1:12:01.960 like Atlantis, starting out with Chariots of the Gods, and 1:12:01.960 --> 1:12:04.479 then at a certain point they realized that this is 1:12:04.520 --> 1:12:06.639 all a bunch of crap, but it is actually interesting. 1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:09.080 And if you know, if I can find one out 1:12:09.200 --> 1:12:12.920 of ten of those people, uh, you know, then it's worthwhile. 1:12:13.000 --> 1:12:16.519 Then it's worth you know, sitting through the the caller 1:12:16.720 --> 1:12:20.519 Question portion of George Norry's show where it's like, I'll 1:12:20.560 --> 1:12:22.599 leave you one one last anecdote that I hope it's 1:12:22.640 --> 1:12:24.560 mildly amusing. I go on coast to coast for the 1:12:24.600 --> 1:12:27.160 Atlantis book. You know. George is like, well, let's take 1:12:27.240 --> 1:12:29.439 some calls, and some guy comes on and he says, 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:33.479 I think Atlantis was located in Finland because in the 1:12:33.479 --> 1:12:36.080 Finnish language is a weird it sounds like Atlantis. And 1:12:36.479 --> 1:12:43.679 also it's the same thank you goodbye. The next day, 1:12:43.800 --> 1:12:45.760 I'm on do you know the show, the NPR show, 1:12:45.760 --> 1:12:48.519 What is it on? Point out of Boston? And it's 1:12:48.560 --> 1:12:50.320 a it's a gas host. It's a woman. She's like, 1:12:50.640 --> 1:12:53.439 we're having a really interesting conversation here with Mark Adams. 1:12:53.439 --> 1:12:56.560 He's the author of a new book. Meet me in Atlantis. 1:12:56.600 --> 1:12:58.800 We're gonna take some calls here. Um, I got Bill 1:12:58.840 --> 1:13:03.160 from Wisconsin, the clicks. I think Atlantis is from Finland. 1:13:04.400 --> 1:13:11.000 The weird in the finish Atlantis and it's a team goodbye. Really, 1:13:11.000 --> 1:13:12.920 what I'm learning from this interview is that Mark should 1:13:12.920 --> 1:13:16.320 be a voice actor. This is really what I'm learning 1:13:16.400 --> 1:13:18.479 right now. Yeah, you might have a second career there, 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:23.479 let's hope. Yeah, I have my founding college. Actually was asking. 1:13:23.560 --> 1:13:25.639 He's like, I think I could get a career. It's 1:13:25.680 --> 1:13:28.240 like a voice actor, you know in video games. Yeah. 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:31.960 I was like, have a plan B, you know, writing, 1:13:32.600 --> 1:13:36.599 follow your dream, but have a plan B always. Now, 1:13:36.640 --> 1:13:38.840 my backup plan is to be a hand model. If 1:13:39.080 --> 1:13:52.639 this Devin's losing it out, He's showing us alright, alright, Mark, 1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:55.439 well again, thank you so much. We really do appreciate it. 1:13:55.600 --> 1:13:57.559 All right, guys, I really appreciate you. Need anything else, 1:13:57.560 --> 1:14:01.640 just let me know, alright, contact or guys. Take care, 1:14:02.000 --> 1:14:03.440 Yeah you do. Bye bye