1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Hello, good morning, Hey, good morning, good afternoon. At twelve 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: o two. Yeah, here, where are you guys? We are 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: in Portland, Oregon. Oh my god, you got up early? 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: Did just for you? I'm sorry. I didn't know you 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: were that far west. It's okay, We're used to it. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: We we actually have phone conversations with people all over 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: the place. Oh really, okay, yeah, well I appreciate you 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: doing this early too, for my sake and your Oh well, Mark, 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: I am Steve by the way, nice to meet Steve. 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: The other gentleman would be Joe. Okay, hey, how you doing? 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, can you hear us? Okay? I can't? 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Yes? Alright? Well shall we shall? 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: We talk about some Atlantis today? Do you want to 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: talk about it? By the way, before we get into 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Uh, you're you're about to head off 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: to Alaska to research your name? Am I am? Talk 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: about that at all? Sure? Sure? Um. You know, you know, 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: people who don't know my other work, they see I've 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: written a book about Atlantis, and you tend to get 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: categorized as one of them, as one of those guys 21 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 1: who's you know, got got Atlantis? Hypothesis that he's talking 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: and they're all guys with the exception of maybe like 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Madame Blavatsky, and you know, they're they're surprised to hear that. 24 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: You know, this is actually just one sort of thing 25 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: that I do. Um. I wrote a book about Machu 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: Picchu in Peru a few years ago, and UM, you know, 27 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: I sort of retraced the expedition from nineteen eleven um 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: on which fella him Hiram Bingham Um rediscovered Martu Pichu 29 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: almost accidentally. And this new book in Alaska, it's a 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: little bit more like that. It's um retracing an expedition 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: from where the railroad tycoon Um E. H. Harriman, who 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: is just uh sort of done an aggressive takeover of 33 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: the Union Pacific Railroad. His doctor tells him, you know, 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna have a heart attack if you don't go 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: on vacation for the summer. So Harriman, being the type 36 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: of person he is, decides he's going to sort of 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: outfit a boat into a luxury yacht and take two 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: dozen of America's smartest scientists, environmentalists, artists, etcetera, and bring 39 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: them on this boat. And they're all going to go 40 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: off together and explore this unknown coast of the territory 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: of Alaska, which is still you know, pretty pretty much 42 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: terra incognated at that point. UM. And it is. And 43 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: and it's what's interesting is it's you know, it's like 44 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: the height of the gold rush. Uh. You were switching 45 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: from like the Yukon Gold Rush to the Nome gold Rush. 46 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: And one of the people on the boat is John Muir, 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: who at that point has just written the two or 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: three articles that are sort of like the cornerstone of 49 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: American conservation. UM. And he has, you know, just founded 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: the Sierra Club. And the sort of clash of personality 51 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: between Harriman and mu were at this exact moment in 52 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: Alaska history, which sort of parallels Alaska right now. I 53 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: don't know how much you've been keeping track of, like, 54 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, the the oil problems they're having in Alaska. UM. 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: But I was up there talking to the state economist 56 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: about three or four weeks ago up in Anchorage, and 57 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: I was like, how bad is it? And he said, 58 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: Alaska gets nine percent of its income directly or indirectly 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: from oil. We have a six point five billion dollar budget, 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: and we have a four point five billion dollar deficit 61 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: in that budget. Now I've heard the off fields after 62 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: there have been dropping in their production, and that the 63 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: had no taxes and also got a check in the 64 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: mail from oil is kind of over I heard, Well, 65 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: that's that's what they're worried about. They they're like, you know, 66 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: they get this thing is what it's called the Permanent Fund, 67 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: and you get a dividend every year. I think last 68 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: year it was two thousand dollars for every man, woman 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: and child in Alaska. So on top of not having 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: any sales tax, not having any state income tax, they 71 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: expect money back every year. Um. And now one of 72 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: the big fights they're having is, you know, how much 73 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: of that can we cut without you know, getting voted 74 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: out of office? You know. So it's an interesting time 75 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: up in Alaska, and it'll be an interesting trip, um. 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: You know, once you if you follow the coast of 77 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: Alaska from like the southernmost point of the Panhandle out 78 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: to the end of the Aleutians. Actually have a map 79 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: in my office from National Geographic It's it's almost like 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: driving from Jacksonville to Kansas City, down to Phoenix and 81 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: then up to San Francisco. Yeah, it's a it's a 82 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: big place. It's a really long trip. Yeah, and then 83 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: to go to Nome would be you know, which I'm 84 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: also going to do with. Maybe even Siberia would be 85 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: like you know, I don't know, going to Jackson Hole 86 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: or something. Um so it's a huge place. Yeahs, I 87 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: need to get up there one of these days. I've 88 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: been to a lot of exotic places, but I've never 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: to my same been to Alaska, and it's not that 90 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: far away really from where No, no, you guys could 91 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: get there in a few hours. And this breathtaking beaut 92 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: I've never been there either, and I was just like, wow, yeah, 93 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: it's amazing. Well it's unfortunately, I know I mentioned to 94 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: you in that email that you should go check out 95 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: the story of Albert Johnson, the Mad Trapper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 96 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: and that might be subject for a later book or 97 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, definitely looks like a great story. Oh, 98 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: it's an amazing story. And the guy that was kind 99 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: of superhuman, I mean he was he had a personality 100 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: disorder obviously, but he did some amazing stuff. Yeah. Yeah, No, 101 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: that's a great stuff. And those are the kind of 102 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: stories you guys do so well. You know that sort 103 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: of slightly out of the mainstream story that hasn't been 104 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: told that much. Mad Trapper is kind of an obscure story. 105 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, but yeah, we find the weird little stories. Yeah, 106 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: we tried to. Yeah, well from the world folks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, seriously, 107 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: I actually, uh, I wanted that first off, say you 108 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: you've got off a great little singer the beginning of 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: chapter eleven in your book. Oh when you talk about 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: uh Maxie and Asher, Yes, powers to to find the 111 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: list and I love this. I'm going to quote your 112 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: book here. Asher was careful not to overstate the importance 113 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: of her findings. Quote, this is probably the greatest discovery 114 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: in world history a reporter, and then she goes down 115 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: to stay like this will change the fields of archaeology, anthropology, 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. You know, And that's the that's the 117 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: problem with Atlantis. There are you know, there are so 118 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: many people out there making these these outlandish claims for 119 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: Atlantis based on you know, next to nothing or absolutely 120 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: nothing that you know, anyone who wants to take it seriously. Uh, 121 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: you know can't even get a foot in the door anywhere. Now, 122 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: I know, I know it's it definitely puts it makes 123 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: the whole thing kind of a stink, you know. And yeah, 124 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: and you know, I would guess that the way I 125 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: read your book, and you're not You're not one of 126 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: those people. You're not a crime, thank you. I pretty ship. 127 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: You really tell the history of Atlantis, and you talk 128 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: about a lot of the people who are looking for 129 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: and there are lots of people who are looking for Atlantis. 130 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: Would you not agree there are more people looking for 131 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: Atlantis now than probably in the entire year history of 132 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: Atlantis up to this point, so you know, and and 133 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: a lot of that is because you know, things like 134 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: Google Earth, um. People can now sit at home on 135 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: their computer and you know, look at translations of ancient 136 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: manuscripts and look at sites around the Mediterranean that you 137 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: know might coincide with the original description of Atlantis. You know, 138 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: you don't have to go out there with a pick 139 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: axe and one of those you know screen things that 140 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: archaeologists used to, uh, you know, shake the dirt through 141 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: for relics and things like that. You can be it is. 142 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: I've actually got the American Archistic Archeological Association guide book 143 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: right here, and it is it's just listed as that 144 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: screen thing that we use sometimes exactly that I like 145 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: shaker thing for the dirt. Yeah, that's got to be 146 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: frustrating to be because you know, you're an archaeologist. You 147 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: want to burrow down there as fast as you can, 148 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: and I would be wanting to get a bacco in there. 149 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: But those guys are down there with toothbrushes. You know 150 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: what's funny is there's actually an Atlantis kind of connection 151 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: there in that. The whole reason why people decided in 152 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: the in the latter part of the nineteenth century that 153 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: it might be possible to look for Atlantis was because 154 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: this fellow Schliemann Heinrich Schleiman from Germany, who was not 155 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: an archaeologist, went to a site in what is now 156 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Turkey and followed the clues from Homer's Iliad looking for 157 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: the city of Troy. Up until that point, no one 158 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: was sure whether Troy had existed or not. It was, 159 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, it was a myth to be interpreted, you know, 160 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: whether you interpreted as fact or fiction or somewhere in 161 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: the middle. We're not sure. But he goes in there 162 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: and he finds this ancient city, uh in a spot 163 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: where where no one had ever bothered to look for, 164 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: you know, just using the clues from the manuscript. But 165 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: in the pro as sss, he digs down so deep 166 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: and so fast looking for what he assumes is going 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: to be this you know, like treasure hoard that he 168 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: obliterates the city of Troy that he's looking for and 169 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: gets down to like earlier version for Yeah. So, I mean, 170 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, people have been trying to like put back 171 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: together the Troy that he destroyed with his team of diggers. 172 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: So you know there's a lesson for archaeology in there 173 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: that kind of like the role model for Indiana Jones, 174 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, because Indiana Jones as an archaeologist was you know, 175 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: he just go in and basically steal crap out of 176 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: a sacred site. Let's get this thing from its original 177 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: place and send it to a museum. Yeah exactly. Yeah where. Yeah, 178 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: we're very belongs. So your book is, by the way, 179 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: it's called Meet Me in Atlantis. Uh, and you've written 180 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: previous books. He wrote turn Right at Mochi Pichu. Yes, 181 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: and uh, this is like kind of like turn Right 182 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: at Mochi pich was. So you're kind of like talking 183 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: about stuff that has happened in the past, combining it 184 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: with mythology. But it's also a little different. Now, why 185 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: did you decide to write about Atlantis? Well, it actually 186 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: sprang directly from the research of Toady Machu Picchu. I 187 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: was looking through some microfilm from nineteen eleven, the year 188 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: when when Machu Pichu was rediscovered, and I came across 189 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: the front page story in the New York Times that 190 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: said German discovers Atlantis in Africa. In Africa, Yeah, And 191 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: I was like, what, hey, people are have been looking 192 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: for Atlantis. I thought Atlantis was this like you know 193 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: bubble city at the bottom of the ocean where they 194 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: had you know, nuclear powered chips and you know Scrooge 195 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: McDuck kept his millions of dollars or whatever. And uh, 196 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, I read this story from nineteen eleven and says, 197 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: you know, all the clues from the dialogues of Plato. 198 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: And then I was like Plato, you know, because at 199 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: the same time I was working on a story about 200 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: the great philosophers of all time for a magazine and uh, 201 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: you know, every every single philosophy professor I called was like, 202 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: I was like, who are the greatest philosophers of all 203 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: time number one, Plato, number two, Aristotle. After that, you 204 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: can argue every single one was like Plato greatest, Aristotle 205 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: number two. And I was like, okay, so the greatest 206 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: philosopher of all time is the sole source for the 207 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: Atlantist story. There's you know, there's got to be something 208 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: there that I haven't heard. So then I started digging 209 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: into it, and you know, realized that, yes, there are 210 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people using the details and there are 211 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: a lot of details in the original Aliantist story to 212 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: try to a prove it was real and be uh 213 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: show where they believe it had been located. Um, And 214 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: that's how we got started. And then, you know, three 215 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: years later, after traveling around the world, you know, I 216 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: had met a lot of these people and heard their 217 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: hypotheses and visited the sites that they thought might have 218 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: been the original Atlantis. There are a lot of interesting, 219 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: intriguing sites out there, and I was looking at the Atlantopedia, 220 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: which is run by Tony Is it's Tony O'Connell, right, 221 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: Tony O'Connell, Yeah, Oconnell, Yeah, who you mentioned in your book. 222 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: The Atlantipedia is vast, Oh my god, yeah, it's huge. 223 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: And I was just looking. Yeah. Yeah, he's got a 224 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: couple of lists out there of all the places that 225 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: people have hypothesized Atlantis might have been. And there are 226 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: literally hundreds of places. Oh yeah, I couldn't even count them. 227 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: I mean I could have, but I chose not to. 228 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: You picked for your book, you picked four four places. 229 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: You picked Malta, the island of Santa Reini, on the 230 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: coasts of Morocco, and the coast of Spain to go investigate. 231 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: So why did you pick those four spots? Well, you know, 232 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: first of all, a lot of times you'll see locations 233 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: for Atlantis that don't make any sense if if you, 234 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: you know, look at the original details. Assuming that Plato's 235 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: story is real, let's start with that assumption, which is, 236 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, rocky to be certain, I mean, to assume 237 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: the Atlantic story is real. First of all, you have 238 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: to believe that a sea god named Poseidon created the 239 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: the island of Atlantis. Uh. So you know, you're making 240 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: some some pretty big leaps here to start with. But 241 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: let's assume that it's real. It's a story about a 242 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: sea battle between Atlantis and Athens. So you know, for 243 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: for an ancient uh navy to be able to travel 244 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: to attack Athens. It doesn't really make sense that it's 245 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: outside of a certain area. You know, it's not going 246 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: to be crossing the Atlantic Ocean, so it's not the Bahamas, 247 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: it's not coming from uh, you know, Indonesia, as some 248 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: people have said. You know, there's a guy out there 249 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: with a theory that Atlantis was in the Bolivian Altiplano, 250 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: which which is right two miles up, hundreds of miles 251 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: from the ocean. Uh. And you know I've been to 252 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: the uh and I gotta tell you this. It's not underwater. 253 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: It is about the lead underwater place you can imagine. Uh. 254 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: You know, So I I drew a you know, sort 255 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: of a circle around Athens of of a certain distance. 256 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: And then you know, Plato gives clues in the story. 257 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: He says, you know, it was opposite the pillars of 258 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: Heracles or Hercules is it's usually called um. It was 259 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: um near the land called Goddies. It was an island um. 260 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: You know, it was near the Pan Pelagos or the 261 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: the Infinite Sea. So you know, once you you start 262 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: listing these things, you get the sense it had to 263 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: be in the Mediterranean a certain distance from Athens and 264 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: the four places that made sense to me Um after 265 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: a week of deliberations with Mr Tony O'Connell over in 266 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: Ireland were probably the most famous Atlantist site, the one 267 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: that shows up on TV specials all the time, which 268 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: is Santorini and of Greece, Uh, the island of Malta 269 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: in the center of the Mediterranean. There is a site 270 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: just outside Um the strait of Gibraltar in southern Spain. 271 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: And then there's a spot in Morocco near the city 272 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: that's now called Aga deer Um, also just outside Um 273 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: the Straight of Gibraltar, but to the south Um. And 274 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: those are the four sights that I went and explored 275 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: at length. Yeah, and uh, I gotta I gotta say 276 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: the one of Morocco is it's the same that the 277 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: locals of carding off all the stones from the ruins, 278 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: because I don't think that that was Atlantis, because it's 279 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: just too high up. I mean, what's the elevation of 280 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: that side? Is what sixet it's pretty high up, I 281 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: mean to have been hit by a wave. And we 282 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: should point out that Plato's description in the Atlantis story 283 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: is is not the island sank to the bottom of 284 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: the Atlantic ocean, as is often you know, bandied about. 285 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: But um, it was destroyed by earthquakes and floods in 286 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: a single night. So the site you're talking about in Morocco. 287 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: The guy who came up with this idea, UM, Michael Hubner, 288 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: who was an I specialist in Bond, Germany. You know, 289 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: he decided that this sort of circular structure um stone structure. UM. 290 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like ten or fifteen miles inland 291 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: from the Atlantic coast could have been hit by a 292 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: huge tsunami. And the area has been hit by earthquakes 293 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: and tsunamis frequently over the years. But yeah, it would 294 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: have to be you know, a thousand foot high wall 295 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: of water or something to get to that site. You know, 296 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: could it be uh? And this is what human proposes, 297 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, two or three ancient stories that were put 298 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: together as they sometimes are, and remembered as a single myth. Um. 299 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: Maybe you know, it's possible, It's definitely possible. UM. You know, 300 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: people love that theory because you know, we're in this 301 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: age of big data. And what Michael Hubner did was 302 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: he he found fifty one clues from Plato and you know, 303 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: he plugged them into this algorithm and when it spat 304 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: out at the end, it pointed him to this one 305 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: spot in morocc Go And as he described it to me, 306 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: it was he's like, you know, six stigma, this is 307 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: seven sigma. You know. It's like it's it's impossible, you know. 308 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, when you talk to one 309 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: of these people who was like a pure you know, mathematician, 310 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: it's like, well, yeah, but you you're controlling the variables here, right, 311 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: You're plugging in the data that you want. He's like, yes, 312 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: but if it did not work, we would have an 313 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: old set. I just Francky wanted to loop background. You 314 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: said something that was kind of stuck out to me, 315 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: which was that Plato was the soul source of the 316 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: story of Atlantis. And it just seems frankly kind of 317 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: insane to me. I mean, Plato is well respected and 318 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: that's fine, but a lot of he he wrote a 319 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: lot and used metaphors a lot and you know, things 320 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: like that. So it's it's interesting to me that, Um, 321 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if you can just talk to to that 322 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: and you know, was he really the only source for this? 323 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean thing appears before Plato and you know, 324 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: we think that that the Atlantis story, which is written 325 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: in two parts, appeared around three sixty b C. So 326 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: there's no reference to Atlantis or you know, a city 327 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: at war with Athens, that is, you know, struck by 328 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: a cataclysm suddenly before three BC. A lot of people 329 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: seem to have picked up on it afterwards, especially people 330 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: in the last hundred hundred fifty years. You know, you've 331 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: got Edgar Casey with his psychic visions of Atlantis going 332 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: under the waves and blah blah blah um. You know, 333 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: none of that would have been possible without Plato's original story. 334 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: The really odd thing about Atlantis and Plato absolutely you know, 335 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: used a lot of made up stories and myths and 336 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: things like that, you know, stories about magic rings and 337 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, people dying and coming back at 338 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: thousand years later and things like that. Yeah in the cave, 339 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Know. As as one archaeologist said to me, 340 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: you know, one of the world's leading archaeologists who is 341 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: a big doubter of of Atlantis, He's like, you know, 342 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, why don't if you're going to look for Atlantis, 343 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: why don't you go look for for Plato's Caves. Yeah, yeah, 344 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: I mean that's my question to Yeah. Well, prior to 345 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: reading the Tomaus and Critias, the only Plato that I 346 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: had ever read was The Republic. I read that for 347 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: political theory class years ago, and I remember the Cave 348 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: and and he was quite explicit when he tells the 349 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: tale of the cave that this is just an allegorical tale. 350 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: He he never actually makes it out to be true, right, 351 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: you know. And of course, the the fact that a 352 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of Atlantologists says, as I called him in the 353 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: book people looking for Atlantis Cling to is that the 354 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: character Critias, who is the narrator of the story of 355 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: Atlantis and Plato's Dialogue, says, you know, this is a 356 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: true story. You know, this is this was handed down 357 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: to me by my great great great great grandfather Solon, 358 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: who heard it in Egypt and so on. Is a 359 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: real character. Um. They he almost certainly did go to Egypt. 360 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: What he heard there, we don't know, um, you know. 361 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: But what I found really striking about the Atlantist story 362 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: and this doesn't necessarily, you know, make it any more 363 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: true or any more false. But you've got the Republic, 364 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, which is Plato's master work arguably the most 365 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: influential book in Western civilization. And then you've got the Timaus, 366 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: which is his attempt to give a sort of mathematical 367 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: logic to the cosmos. I think if you had asked Plato, 368 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: he might have said that Tomaus was his most important work. 369 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: At the start of the Tamaus as a sort of 370 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: bridge from the Republic to the Tamaus, and he he, 371 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, makes a clear link at the beginning of 372 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: the story. He says, you know, hey, Socrates says, hey, 373 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, could you could someone tell a story illustrating 374 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: all of this stuff that I talked about in my 375 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: speech yesterday, which is a reference to the Republic as 376 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: the bridge between those two. Critias starts telling this story 377 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: of Atlantis, of a you know, an island nation that 378 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, it was located opposite the pillars of Heracles, 379 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: and you know, blah blah blah. I was very noble 380 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: for a while and then became debased and was destroyed 381 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: in a day and a night. And it's like, okay, 382 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: well that's that's interesting. So then Plato goes into the 383 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: meat of the Timaus, where he does things like explain 384 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: how the universe is made up of two kinds of 385 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: tiny triangles, and you know the four elements you know, earth, fire, water, 386 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,239 Speaker 1: and air, um, and how the cosmos all you know, 387 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: sort of have this geometric circular logic to them, blah 388 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And then right after that he comes 389 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: back to Atlantis again, and this time he started giving 390 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: all of this, you know, numerical detail, and you know 391 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: what the circles of Atlantis were like, it's, you know, 392 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: three concentric circles of land and water, and here's how 393 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: big they were. And he gives measurements in states, which 394 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: was a measurement that was about six hundred feet long 395 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: used in ancient Greece. And at that point you start 396 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: to want to say, why is he doing this? You know, 397 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: why is he giving all of this detail for a 398 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: story that he's already used, you know, for whatever purpose 399 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: he was going to do to link the Republic to 400 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: the Tamaeus. Why is he coming back to this and 401 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: all of a sudden giving all of this detail um. 402 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: And I think that's what sucks a lot of people 403 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: in it. It's a really vivid, um, you know, very 404 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: specific portrayal of this place. And he's he's obviously doing 405 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: something there, but whether he's trying to make it sound 406 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: real when it's not, or whether he's you know, using 407 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: detail that he believes to be real, or whether he's 408 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: doing something else, is you know, something that no one 409 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: has been able to solve up to this point. That's 410 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: one of the questions I had for you is and 411 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: he probably can't answer it. But it seems to me 412 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: that this is a tale that grew in the telling 413 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: and that somebody you know, sort of tacked on a 414 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: few elements, just like you know, the Internet today. I'm 415 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: just curious, did Plato do that? Did he do it 416 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: for a reason, or did the Egyptians do it? Back 417 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: when you don't know? We don't know, you know, I 418 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: think the only way we could figure out how much 419 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: of this Plato made up and how much of it 420 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: he believed, um, because we can't we can't know what 421 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: the original story was. But what all we can tell is, 422 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: you know, how much of it did Plato believe to 423 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: be true? Um? Would be if some sort of inscription 424 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: showed up in Egypt and some ancient temples somewhere that 425 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: matched the Atlantis story. Um, It's it's possible you know, 426 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: they're still digging in that in that area. You know, 427 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: I think they've probably found just about everything they're going 428 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: to find it in Egypt, but it's not impossible, you know, 429 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: they could find something that would match it. Um. You know. 430 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: The other thing they could do is, you know, find 431 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: a place that's located opposite one of the pillars of 432 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: Heracles um. And there are a few there's the most 433 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: famous one is the Straits of Gibraltar um, straight of 434 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: Gibraltar in between southern Spain and Morocco, because we've got 435 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: that giant rock of Gibraltar there it's feet high. But 436 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's also the Straits of messina Um and 437 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: a few other spots around the Mediterranean. Um. So if 438 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: you found a former you know, capital city type place 439 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: from the ancient world that was hit by a cataclysm 440 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, water and earthquakes before Plato's time and also 441 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: had some sort of you know, three ring circular structure 442 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: attached to it, then I think you would probably have 443 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: to say, wow, there's probably you know a good chunk 444 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: of truth to this, uh, this Atlantis story. Whether that's 445 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: ever gonna happen, who knows, but that that would you 446 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: prove it. Yeah, I mean, all of this stuff is 447 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: just guesswork because we don't know, you know, there's so 448 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: many I mean, there's the problem that Plato does sometimes 449 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: use uh, you know, figurative language, and sometimes he is 450 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, he makes jokes. He you know, there's riddles 451 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: and Plato people. You know, people still haven't figured out 452 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: what Plato was talking about, you know, definitively, you know, 453 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: and here we are twenty years later. He's probably the 454 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: most written about philosopher of all time. So you know, 455 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: people peop will come to me and they're like, well, 456 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: I need the definitive explanation of I'm a you know, 457 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm a guy who writes the travel books exactly. You 458 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: kind of touched on this, but maybe you can expand 459 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: on it. The way that Atlantis is telling of Atlantis 460 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: fits in is like right after the Republic and then 461 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: like right before he starts talking about math, the first 462 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: part of it, the first part of okay, and then 463 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: he talks about it more direct or, and then he 464 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: goes into the Tumaus, which is you know, sort of um. 465 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: The Tomas is sometimes cited as like the first great 466 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: work of science. You know, it's his way to try 467 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: to give a sort of logic. And to back up 468 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: just a second. You know, Plato was was heavily influenced 469 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: by the Pythagoreans um, who were a sort of like 470 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: religious cult slash uh, you know, group of math professors 471 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: who lived in southern Italy and who. You know, we're 472 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: trying to find the athematical and and you know, geometric 473 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: essentially like the secret code behind the universe. It's it's 474 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: it's almost like the first attempt to find a physics, 475 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, and explain everything through numbers. You know. At 476 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: the same time they're doing very strange things with numbers there, 477 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, to them, numbers are living beings, some numbers 478 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: are female, some numbers are male. You know. So there's 479 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: there's odd stuff going on with the Pythagoreans as well. Um, 480 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: So the Tomaus has a lot of Pythagorean stuff in it. 481 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: And then you know, here he is with this this 482 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, first work of science, trying to explain how 483 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: the cosmos work, even though the telescope hasn't been invented yet. 484 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: And then to come back to it in a separate 485 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: dialogue called the Critios, which immediately follows the Tamaus, and 486 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: that's when he gives probably eighty or nine of the 487 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: details about the story of Atlantists and what Atlantis looked like, 488 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: and you know, measurements, and you know, he talked about 489 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: this enormous plane that was attached to the city of Atlantis, 490 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: a field plane, not at like an airplane, although some 491 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: have made that some have made that claim as well. 492 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: That was hundreds of square miles surrounded by it an 493 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: ormous ditch and yeah, yeah, and as I crossed and stuff, 494 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: I did the you know, I did the math on this, 495 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, okay, so they dug this 496 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: giant canal and I was like, wait a minute, if 497 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: they were going to dig this canal, this would be 498 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: like a hundred times the amount of earth that was 499 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: moved to make the Panama Canal. You know, this doesn't 500 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: make any sense at all. So you know, it's like, well, okay, 501 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: maybe Plato is using these numbers and a Pythagorean sense 502 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: that we don't understand. Um, in which case, uh, you know, 503 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: we we can't use these numbers as like you know, 504 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: modern GPS coordinates. Maybe he's doing things here that uh, 505 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, had completely been erased overred years that we 506 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: just you know, simply can't understand anymore. Um. You do 507 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: know that the numbers, like you know, he goes, he 508 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: uses stage and I did a little research on stage. 509 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: And of course you probably know this too, is that 510 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: there's no actual agreement on what a state was. I've seen. No, 511 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: there's kind of a rough number. Um, you know, like 512 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: I said, of a round six hundred feet. But you 513 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: know what what people will do a lot is they'll 514 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: find a location and then they'll choose the definition of 515 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: state that fits their location. You know. And in ancient 516 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: Portugal a state was you know, you know, like, well, 517 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: I I'm sure Plato wasn't from ancient Portugal. I think 518 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: we I think we know where he was from. U 519 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: a few certainties in dealing with Plato in Atlantis. Uh yeah, 520 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: so you know that. But you know, there are these 521 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: people out there who who are like you know, um, 522 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: you know they're like, uh, these you know judges who 523 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: who interpret the constitution uh in a in a fundamental sense. 524 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, well, this is Joe, this is 525 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: what the Founding fathers were thinking on this day when 526 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: they wrote this, And they're like, you know, everything in 527 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: the atlantis has to be true. The numbers all have 528 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: to be true. So you know, they twist their theory 529 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: to to fit the numbers, um, and usually it comes out, 530 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: you know, sounding pretty ridiculous. Every once in a while 531 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: you see something and you're like, huh, wait a minute, 532 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: that's weird. You know, like when I went up and 533 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,239 Speaker 1: talked to John Bremer, who is um uh. He's been 534 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: studying Plato for I think sixty years um and for 535 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: fun he counts the syllables of the ancient you know, 536 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: the ancient Greek versions of of Plato's works, and there's 537 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: his fame. Well, he has found patterns. There's there's a 538 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: lot of interesting things, one of which was, you know, 539 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 1: as I mentioned Plato, was you studied with the Pythagoreans. Um. 540 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: You know, the Pythagoreans. One of the reasons why they 541 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: thought there might be this secret mathematical code that they 542 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: could crack was that, you know, in according to lore, 543 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: it was Pythagoras himself. But we people generally believe that 544 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: anything that Pythagorians found is attributed to Pythagoras. Um. You know, 545 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: he was probably the first person outside of maybe some 546 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: some Babylonians UM to realize that there was math behind music. 547 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: You know, when you make a clear tone. That's because 548 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: certain ratios already play here a one to two ratio 549 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: or a two to three ratio. So they established this 550 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: twelve note Pythagorean musical scale, the first musical scale that 551 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: we know of UM. And what John Bremer and another 552 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: person UH computer scientists in England who confirmed this um 553 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: separately UH found was that in a lot of Plato's works, 554 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: including the Timaeus, he seems to be using a structure 555 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: almost like an outline, based on this twelve note scale. 556 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: And there are twelve parts two the dialogue, and if 557 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: you hit a part like say midway through um, you 558 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: know your six out of twelve here, that's a one 559 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: to two ratio, which is which is um um harmonious 560 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: note um. And in those spots Plato tends to be 561 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: writing about good things, about harmonious things. If you hit 562 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: a where it's like seven out of twelve, which is 563 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: not a harmonious note um. And I'm probably butchering the 564 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: terminology here because I don't know music that well, but um, 565 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: you know, that's when he's talking about you know, chaos 566 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 1: and disorder and things like that. Um and you know, 567 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: Bremer seemed to think that the structure of Plato's works 568 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: might be you know, every bit as important as the 569 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: words themselves, you know, and no one has really dug 570 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: that deep into this. There may be things about this 571 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: that we don't even understand yet. And I would say 572 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: that almost certainly there are things about this we don't understand. 573 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: You know, Plato plays all sorts of you know, math 574 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: games and you know, things like that. That the trouble 575 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: is that, as somebody, you know, a great uh, you 576 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: know Platonists pointed out about a hundred years ago, they said, 577 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, the mathematics in Plato is the most difficult 578 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: part of the most difficult philosopher of all time. So 579 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: nobody really wants to take this stuff on. It's kind 580 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: of like the Da Vinci code, you know, it is 581 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. And there are you know, 582 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: nobody doubts that Plato is making references to things like 583 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: the Fibonacci sequence or the golden ratio in his works. 584 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: You know, he's he's you know, and in something like 585 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: his book The Laws, which I think the last dialogue 586 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: he wrote notorious for being like the most uh boring 587 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: uh thing that from ancient history. You know. I met 588 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: a philosophy professor and he starts paging three. I was like, 589 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: if you ever read this, He's like, you know, even 590 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: people who study Plato don't read the laws, who just 591 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: got it just kind of dip into it, you know, 592 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: But there are you know, there's the number of fifty forty, 593 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: which he calls this this you know, super important number. Well, 594 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: if you break it down, fifty is the sum of 595 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: one times two times three times four times five times 596 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: six times seven, and it appears seven times in the laws. 597 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: So it looks like, you know, at the very least, 598 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: Plato is playing some sort of number games here, and 599 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: you know, the the the idea that he you know, 600 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: there's also an instance in the Republic where he refers 601 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: to maybe misquoting this the three and the four attached 602 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: to the pen pad, and somebody pointed out at some 603 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: point they're like, well that's a three or four and 604 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: five that's the Pythagorean triangle. So you know, he's dropping 605 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: little hints that there's other stuff going on here. But 606 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: you know, whether anyone's ever going to to decode what 607 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,479 Speaker 1: he was doing is you know, you know, the future 608 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: may know that, but I certainly don't, you know, because 609 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: you remember, he's he's not writing these dialogues, you know, 610 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: to be read by a modern audience. Two years later, 611 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: he's using these to teach his students at the Academy 612 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: in Athens, which was the first university. Um. You know, 613 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: he's Tea's teaching a classic pythagoryan uh quadrivium. I think 614 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: they called it four part curriculum to students. So they 615 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 1: whatever he was doing, his students, you know, sitting around 616 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: uh in the garden and Athens, they would have known 617 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: what he was doing, But we have completely lost whatever 618 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: it was. Um. And if you know, if if somebody 619 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: can at some point starting to figure that out, maybe 620 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: we'll have a better sense of how much of Atlantis 621 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: could have been based on historical events, or or even 622 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: just how much of it did Plato himself actually believe. 623 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: The answer could be none, the answer could be a lot. Yeah. Well, 624 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: I I tend to think that he believed at least 625 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: part of it. And this is something I wanted to 626 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: ask you about. Is he uh, he invokes his ancestors 627 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: Solon and also his mentor Socrates. You know and who 628 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: both swear that this is true for Plato and it 629 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: is called in that culture. Would that have been disrespectful 630 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: to an ancestor to basically involved them and attested to 631 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: the truth of a fairy tale? You know it It 632 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: might have been. But again, you know, um, I don't 633 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: want to go back into my like post structuralist terminology 634 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: that drove me out of grad school in the early 635 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: night that you know, he's using a series of masks here, 636 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, he's he could be hiding behind Socrates to 637 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 1: say something that he wants to uh, you know, play with. 638 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: So we you know, we can't know whether he intended 639 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: that to be real, or whether he you know, was 640 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: using that as some sort of rhetorical device or or 641 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: you know whatnot. Um So, you know, if if we 642 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: knew for a fact that this was intended as a 643 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: piece of written history, yes, it would have been disrespectful 644 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: for him to put those words in the mouth of 645 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: of Socrates or into the mouth of Solon, you know. 646 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: But that's that's another thing that we have to deal 647 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: with here. Another layer, which is that written history in 648 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: three six b C. You know, this is still new technology. 649 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: This is you know, as far as the Greeks are concerned, 650 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: this is technology that's less than a hundred years old. 651 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: You know, Herodotus has has you know, the father of 652 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: history has just started doing this stuff about a hundred 653 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: years before, you know, writing down history rather than allowing 654 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 1: it to be passed on orally. And it's when history 655 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: has passed on orally, it's done in the form of 656 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: stories which have become myths. You know. So now from 657 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: our vantage point, we have to decode those myths and 658 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: try to pluck the truth out. And this is you know, 659 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: this is a lot of what archaeologists and anthropologists do. So, 660 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, Plato, through the character of Socrates, wrestling with 661 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: this idea, you know, is written history true or is 662 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: oral history true? Things that are passed down to story 663 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: is true? And I think it's in the republic um. No, 664 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: it's actually in a different word, but I can't remember which. 665 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: You know, Socrates comes out and and says, you know, look, 666 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: I actually trust oral history more. I you know, trust 667 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 1: things that are that are passed down not in writing, 668 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: because you can engage with them, you can argue with them, 669 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: you know, whereas written history is just sort of this 670 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: lump right here and you can't. You can't sort of 671 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, poke the holes in it. It is what 672 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: it is, um, you know. So that's just one more 673 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: gigantic problem sitting in the middle of the attempt to 674 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: try to solve the Atlantis story. Yeah. The thing about 675 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: the written history though, is that and this is one 676 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: of the reasons I think that probably this is true, 677 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: is that finds that from the Egyptians that the Greek 678 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: at one actually had a written language and they had 679 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: lost Well that's you know, that's the half of the 680 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: story that everyone tends to ignore, which is the Athens 681 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 1: half of the story. And there's a fascinating guy gego 682 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: physicist in Greece named Stavros Papameranapolis, and he's probably the 683 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: guy who has done the most work on trying to 684 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: figure out that the truth from the fiction in the 685 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: Atlantis story. And he's I mean, he's a real geophysicist. 686 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: He's found uh, you know, ancient ancient canals and things 687 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: like that that um, people weren't sure if they were 688 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: real or not. And he you know, he went down 689 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: to southern Greece and you know, did the the soundings 690 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: and such, and it's like okay, well, Yeah, actually they 691 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: did build this canal where two ships could pass, and 692 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: it was a mile long, and that sort of thing. 693 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: And what he has done is he has looked at 694 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: the Athens part of the story and and shown that 695 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: a lot of details that seem completely pointless if you 696 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: just sort of skimmed the story actually coincide with Greek history, 697 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 1: as we've come to understand in the last hundred years. 698 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: You know, he talks about um a spring on the 699 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: north side of the acropolis that was destroyed by an earthquake, 700 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: and well, guess what, in the nineteen thirties they found 701 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 1: a spring that had been clogged by an earthquake around 702 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: which is around the time when uh, you know, in 703 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: the Atlantis story they say, uh, you know, the Greek's 704 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: lost written language. Well, what did they lose around that time? 705 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: Linear b the famous uh you know uh language that 706 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: was decoded in the middle of the twentieth century. Um. 707 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: So there are enough of these details that you know, 708 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: Plato could not have known, you know, unless he was 709 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: he was you know, uh clairvoyant or something, in which 710 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: case maybe Edgar Casey was right. You know, he had 711 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: to have some details from the past than he believed 712 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: to be true, and especially those that we're dealing with 713 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: the Greek part of the story. So you know, there's 714 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: enough of that to make me think that, you know this, 715 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: there are elements of the Atlantis story that can be 716 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: based in history. But yeah, and I know the like 717 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: for me, the part with linear b that always kind 718 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: of resonated is that we always in that oral tradition, 719 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: there's things that are legends that are told from a 720 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: time before, which is why how I always figured that 721 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 1: he that's why he was making reference to these lost languages, 722 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: less so from what he Solon had gotten from the Egyptians, 723 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: but just it was kind of generally known that at 724 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: one time people kind of knew how to do this, 725 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,479 Speaker 1: and we sort of know about it, but we don't 726 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: because it's such a huge fan of the oral tradition 727 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: that I can see that being passed down. You know, 728 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: one time we knew how to write with sticks, but 729 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: now we don't. But at the same time, the spring 730 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: is a trivial enough thing that you know, you can't 731 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: see people like sitting around the campfire talking about the 732 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: spring on the popolis. I can't quite imagine that. No, 733 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: it's it's not like you know, a grandfather pulling the 734 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: young child aside and saying, let me tell you the 735 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: story about the spring on the acropolis got exactly. Yeah, 736 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: it's like a three thousand year old liquid plumber commercial. 737 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: Or so let's uh. I wanted to I wanted to 738 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: to swivel back to Atlantis a little bit. So Atlantis itself, 739 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: the in generally speaking, is pretty well mocked from the 740 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote official mainstream perspective. Nobody takes that seriously. Definitely 741 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: almost nobody, right, So so my first question is is, 742 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: and and I'll follow this in a second with another, 743 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: but how did you sell that you were going to 744 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: write a book on Atlantis when it kind of had 745 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: that stigma. Well, because my publisher, Penguin, you know, they 746 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: had done one book with me so far, so they knew, 747 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, I was, you know, a real reporter, a 748 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 1: real writer. Um. They knew there would be a travel 749 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: component to this as well as just going back and 750 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: looking at the original story of Atlantis. Um. And you know, 751 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: they know that, you know, Atlantis is an evergreen story. 752 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's one of, if not the greatest 753 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: mystery of all times. So you know, people are fascinated 754 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: by this. You know, it's it's funny because you know, 755 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: whenever I post something online, I'll get comments, and you know, 756 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 1: one of them will be, hey, that's really interesting. I 757 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: never knew that, and nine of them will be you know, 758 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: my psychic told me that fifty thousand years ago the 759 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: continent of MW blah blah blah blah blah. So you know, 760 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people are just interested in Atlantis for 761 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: their own purposes and don't want to hear what anybody 762 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: else has to say. But there is a you know, 763 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: a general high level of interest um in Atlantis. And 764 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: I think that's why Penguin said, you know, okay, you're 765 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: not crazy, go ahead and write the book. So but 766 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: but why is it? Why then, from that academic perspective, 767 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: is the story rather shunned? Well, there's I think there is. 768 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: From you know, a very contemporary perspective, there is just 769 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: sort of a general idea that this is an area 770 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: for fringe thinking and nuts and and stuff like that. 771 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: You know, it's bigfoot, it's UFOs Um. Specifically, I think 772 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: we can trace this back to a guy named Ignatius Donnally, 773 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: one of the great characters of Atlantology. You know, Ignatious 774 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: Donnely is a U S congressman former U S congressman 775 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: in Minnesota in eighteen eighty one. I think it is 776 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: he sits down, he has no money. Uh, so he's 777 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: he decides he's going to write a book about Atlantis. 778 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,280 Speaker 1: Then remember this is right after Heinrich Lehman has found 779 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: Troy using the clues from the Iliad. So people have 780 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: started to think, hey, you know, if we found Troy, 781 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: and maybe we'll find Atlantis. So he goes and finds 782 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: like every scrap of information that could could possibly you know, 783 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 1: relate to you know, Atlantis, and you know, some of 784 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: it makes a little bit of sense. You know. He 785 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 1: talks about events that happened in the past, He draws 786 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: parallels to the the Old Testament, and there are you know, 787 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: indications that maybe some of the things that are talking 788 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: about in Atlantis may have parallels to um, you know, 789 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: the Ten Plagues of Egypt. But then he starts making 790 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: these outlandish claims, like, you know, he's the guy who 791 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: came up with the idea that Atlantis sank to the 792 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: bottom of the Atlantic Ocean and the Azores Mountains, uh, 793 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,720 Speaker 1: the Azores Islands, that are the tips of the great 794 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: mountains of Atlantis, and the Gulf stream upflows the way 795 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: it does because it goes around Atlantis, and he comes, 796 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, he goes into like Mayan history and uh 797 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: Egyptian history and Hebrew history and just tries to prove 798 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: that every great culture that uh humanity has ever produced, 799 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: actually it can be traced back to Atlantis, Atlanteans getting 800 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: in boats and sailing off to these different places around 801 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: ten thousand BC. UM. And I think that diffusionism exactly, 802 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, And that's the idea that makes academics really uncomfortable, 803 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 1: the idea of this super race that once existed. And 804 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,959 Speaker 1: this is this is you know, like the light bulb 805 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: that draws the moths. For a lot of these people, 806 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: it's like, yes, ten thousand years ago, there was a 807 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: super race that you know, created everything we've ever heard of. 808 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah. And you know, even though there's 809 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 1: a mountain of evidence to the contrary, this is an 810 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: idea that a lot of people latch onto. Um. And 811 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 1: I think it's it's you know, Donnally and his crazy stuff. 812 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: But I think there's an example I given the book. 813 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: I can't remember it precisely, but it was like, uh, 814 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: you know, the Kings of Atlantis referred to a scourge 815 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: of the body that they got rid of. And Donnally says, oh, really, well, 816 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: you know what that means. They're referring to syphilis. And 817 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: because the ancient Hebrew performs through coumcision. Uh, and because 818 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,760 Speaker 1: modern actuarial tables show us that Jews tend live longer 819 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: than most other people, we can therefore, you know, draw 820 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: the line relatively quickly back to Atlantis. You know, if 821 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: you if if you're reading very quickly, you're like, huh, 822 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 1: and then do you stop and think about it? For like, 823 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,799 Speaker 1: this is nuts? You know, no wonder two thirds of 824 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: the emails I sent off to addresses that ended in 825 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: dot e du never were responded to. You know, this 826 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: is academic kryptonite. Um Ippi a similar thing. You know, 827 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: my phone calls to the FBI regarding DV Cooper so 828 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:38,359 Speaker 1: far returned. Yeah, like, yeah, we'll get on that one 829 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: right away. You know who else is really big on 830 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: on Atlantis, the super Race and uh and all that 831 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: stuff was the Nazis, I mean, Henri Himmler and all 832 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 1: that stuff. For Atlantis. You know, they had They had 833 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: this whole team, the Onitor, but I think it was 834 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: called put together by Himmler. And the whole point was, 835 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 1: it's very much like the first Indiana Jones movie reaiders 836 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: it a lot of stark. They are looking for ancient 837 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: evidence of this super Aryan race that of course eventually 838 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: became the most super race of all in their opinion. Um, 839 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, the National Socialists. And what what's interesting is 840 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: they had planned, um, a big expedition to the Canary Islands, 841 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: which is which is not you know, as far as 842 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: possible sites go, it's not the worst one you can 843 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: come up with, uh, for the Fall of nine. And 844 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: it seems that the reason they never got there is 845 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: because the Nazis decided to attack Poland instead. So it's like, wait, 846 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: just one more bad thing to come out of that 847 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: whole era. But yeah, I mean they were the theories, 848 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: the theories they were promoting were just completely nuts. I mean, 849 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: going back tens of thousands of years and things like that. 850 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 1: And you know, because stuff like that is interesting to 851 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Uh, it just it gives this 852 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: tinge to Atlantis in general. That makes it sound like, 853 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,399 Speaker 1: you know, a subject that's only dealt with by crazy people. Um. 854 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: And I don't think that should be the case. But 855 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,359 Speaker 1: what what do you think it's gonna take. I mean, 856 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: what would we have to find before it would suddenly 857 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: come out of that that fringe into the limelight and 858 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: people would be willing to take it seriously? Well, I 859 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: think you'd have to find either of someone discovering what 860 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: the pattern is with these numbers that Plato is using. 861 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 1: You know, he uses dozens of numbers in the second 862 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: part of the Atlantis story, um that you know, like 863 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: I mentioned, people have latched onto like their GPS coordinates, um, 864 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, and can be used to find a city 865 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: of an exact size and this gigantic plane of an 866 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: exact size. You know, if if somebody could decode those 867 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: numbers and figure out what Plato was actually doing there 868 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: and if it was actually referring to something that we 869 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 1: can understand, I think that would be one form of proof. 870 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: The other form of proof, of course, would be to 871 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: find some sort of ancient inscription in Egypt, you know, 872 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: something that matches the story that sold On supposedly originally 873 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 1: heard around five or six hundred BC. UM. And the 874 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,800 Speaker 1: other thing would be, you know, if someone could pile 875 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: up enough evidence, if someone could say, okay, uh Plato 876 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: said it was opposite a land called Goddis, Well here's 877 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's Kadi's in southern Spain, there's Agadir and Morocco. 878 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: Both of those come from the Phoenician word godir, meaning 879 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: an enclosed city. So if you know, if you can 880 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: find one of these old godders that is near uh, 881 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: you know, one of the pillars of Heracles and shows 882 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: evidence that, uh, you know, a civilization of some sort 883 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: was struck suddenly by earthquakes and floods and was destroyed. 884 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: And if there are you know, some elements of the 885 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 1: description that Plato gives, if there is you know, some 886 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 1: sort of concentric circles there, then I think the preponderance 887 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: of evidence would would say, okay, you know what this is, 888 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 1: there's probably a large kernel of truth at the center 889 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: of this. You know, whether any of those is going 890 00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: to happen, I you know, I honestly couldn't say, but 891 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: one of those three things, I think would would certainly 892 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,839 Speaker 1: move the needle back toward Okay, Atlantis has has got 893 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,319 Speaker 1: a lot of truth in it, yeah, I think, And 894 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: this is one of the one of the problems that 895 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: I have with the whole thing is like, so the 896 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: pillars of Heracles could have been many places, as there's been. 897 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,760 Speaker 1: You know, the time that Plato was writing, the Greeks 898 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: had actually been exploring and colonizing the western Mediterranean for 899 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,160 Speaker 1: a couple hundred years as as far as I understand, 900 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: So for them, the Pillars of Heracles must have been 901 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: the straighter Gibraltar. But at the same time, if Athens 902 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,840 Speaker 1: and Atlantis were both wiped out the same day, and 903 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: that means that Atlantis had to be inside the pillars 904 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: of Heracles. And yet the most likely side I think 905 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: is is Spain. So this is one of the things 906 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: I'm wondering about. Is um, is it really totally under 907 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 1: present true that they were wiped out the very same 908 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 1: day by the same cataclysm or honestly pent clarity on that. 909 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,239 Speaker 1: Come on, man, this was a three thousand year old 910 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: story passed down maybe or maybe not through at least 911 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,839 Speaker 1: you know, three or four pairs of hands. Um. That's 912 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: why we called you Mark. I know, I know I 913 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 1: would know two things. One, you know, with ancient myths 914 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: of this sort, there is I can't remember the term 915 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,719 Speaker 1: off the top of my head, um where a bunch 916 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,719 Speaker 1: of things tend to come together, so they you know, 917 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: there could be two or three stories that are combined 918 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: into one story. So you know, hypothetically Rome could be 919 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 1: destroyed in an earthquake tomorrow and that could you know, 920 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: be put together with the story of Lisbon in seventeen 921 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: fifty five being destroyed by an earthquake, and ten thousand 922 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,399 Speaker 1: years from now, people are gonna say, oh, those things 923 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 1: happened at the same time. Um, you know, just hypothetically. 924 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: You know, the other thing is and and this is 925 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: much more interesting. Around the time that you know, linear 926 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:59,880 Speaker 1: b disappears, when this group called the Sea People's uh 927 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: which is a still very mysterious group that seems to 928 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,319 Speaker 1: have shown up in various places around the Mediterranean and 929 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 1: start you know, attacked suddenly from the sea. Around the 930 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,560 Speaker 1: same time that that those things are happening, there is 931 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: this wave of earthquakes, floods, famines, you know, just generally 932 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,280 Speaker 1: bad news. I think the dates are roughly twelve fifty 933 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,360 Speaker 1: b C E to eleven fifty b C. And that 934 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: there's a great term I can't remember exactly. It's it's 935 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: like seismological unzipping there making a fault line in the 936 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 1: Mediterranean that just caused all sorts of chaos. And you know, 937 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,120 Speaker 1: one place has no food for two or three years. 938 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,240 Speaker 1: So they get on their boats and they attack Egypt. 939 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,240 Speaker 1: They attacked the Hittites and what in what is now Turkey. 940 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 1: You know, they end up in Israel. Um. So it's 941 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: possible that there were two cataclysms occurring roughly at the 942 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,400 Speaker 1: same time in Athens and wherever um. You know, the 943 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: the ration for Atlantis. What it is not at all 944 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: impossible that in this period of chaos, which is is 945 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: a um. It's it's not proven historically, but it's generally 946 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,480 Speaker 1: regarded as true historically. Historians pop won't argue about the 947 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,200 Speaker 1: sea People's or about this, you know um, this period 948 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: of great chaos. And there are actually like little fragments 949 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,720 Speaker 1: I think a pottery from the Hittites and such where 950 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,320 Speaker 1: the king of Um is that the king of the Hittites, 951 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but it's it's, you know, whatever the 952 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: group was before the Phoenicians. There's a communication between one 953 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,760 Speaker 1: and the other where they're basically saying, we're being attacked, 954 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 1: come save us. And it seems to be the same 955 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: people who attacked Egypt around the same time. So whatever 956 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,920 Speaker 1: was going on, it was you know where it was 957 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: really bad. There was famine, etcetera, etcetera. And this may 958 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,759 Speaker 1: also be, uh, you know, the same thing that that 959 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,839 Speaker 1: wiped out Linear be wiped out whatever the Greek culture was. 960 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,879 Speaker 1: Now that we call that the Manoans, but obviously they 961 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,240 Speaker 1: weren't the Manoans at the time. Yeah. I wondered about 962 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,840 Speaker 1: that that like a string of earth quicks or maybe 963 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 1: and I'll probably get an email from a volcanologist or 964 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: geologist about this, but yeah, an earthquake could have touched 965 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,440 Speaker 1: off the volcano in Santorini e Thera and caused interruption 966 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: of that, which of course wiped out a very ancient city, 967 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: their Acriteri, which you paid a visit to in your book, 968 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: by the way, I did. I did, And you know, 969 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,359 Speaker 1: Acritaria is fascinating and there are parallels with Atlantis, you know, 970 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: but I think what the reason why Acriteri and Um 971 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,719 Speaker 1: Santorini are still appealing to you know, those academics who 972 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: are willing to even discuss Atlantis, is that we've got 973 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: some concrete evidence there, you know, there obviously was a 974 00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: huge explosion. There obviously was a maritime culture there. Um. 975 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:50,600 Speaker 1: But you know, beyond that, the parallels with Plato are 976 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, not really that strong. But I think, you know, 977 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,280 Speaker 1: people say want to say, okay, we have some evidence 978 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,800 Speaker 1: of something here. Um, you know, why don't we relate 979 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,279 Speaker 1: it to the Atlantis story. My my guess is that 980 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,720 Speaker 1: if it was based on one cataclysmic event, it's probably 981 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,880 Speaker 1: a different one. Um. And I should point out that 982 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: the explosion of there it does not match up with 983 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,879 Speaker 1: those that seismic gun zipping or whatever the exact term 984 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,920 Speaker 1: is um that there are. They still haven't nailed it down. 985 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,359 Speaker 1: To the archaeologists who base it on pottery, I think 986 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:25,400 Speaker 1: they want to say it's around and then based on 987 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,960 Speaker 1: some sort of carbon dating, they say it's around sixteen 988 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,640 Speaker 1: ten sixteen fifteen BC, So they know roughly when it was, 989 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,080 Speaker 1: but they don't know exactly when it was. Um. But 990 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 1: that's it. You know, Acriterias is fascinating. The whole island, 991 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 1: island of Santorini is you know, amazingly beautiful. So highly 992 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 1: recommend just that if you want to check it out 993 00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,480 Speaker 1: for yourself. Now I totally want to go there and 994 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,799 Speaker 1: and luckily I was Luckily I was able to visit 995 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 1: it via Google street View, and and I've actually driven 996 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 1: all over the island on Google uh. And And this 997 00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,000 Speaker 1: really kind of annoys me is that I wanted to 998 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,880 Speaker 1: take a similar to of Malta, and you can't do 999 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: street view on Malta. You look at Google Pictures, but 1000 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: there ain't no street view. That's interesting. Malta is a 1001 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: strange place. It's a very I mean, it's like a 1002 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,759 Speaker 1: a fortress mentality inside an island that is set up 1003 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: like a fortress. So it shocked me to hear that 1004 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,719 Speaker 1: the Maltese didn't want Google on their island. That would 1005 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, That wouldn't shock me at all. It's a 1006 00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,560 Speaker 1: it's a it's a strange place. Um. As I think 1007 00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: I mentioned in the book. It one of the first 1008 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,360 Speaker 1: things I realized when I was there is they it 1009 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:38,000 Speaker 1: had like the greatest percentage of beautiful women and fat 1010 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,400 Speaker 1: men I had ever seen in my life. So I 1011 00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 1: don't know, if you know, the mating rules are different 1012 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:48,319 Speaker 1: in Malta, but I've heard things about Brazil that could 1013 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,640 Speaker 1: be that could very well be. Yeah, um, you know, 1014 00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 1: but Malta is fascinating because they have those ancient temples 1015 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: there um, which you know, a thousand years older than 1016 00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 1: I think even the Great Pyramid in Egypt. And Malta 1017 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 1: was destroyed suddenly by a cataclysm that wiped out the population, 1018 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,480 Speaker 1: apparently a long time before Plato was writing. Um, you know, 1019 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 1: it's an island, it's near the straits of messina Um. 1020 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,280 Speaker 1: So you know, I think Malta is a more appealing 1021 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,480 Speaker 1: candidate probably than Santorini, just you know, based on comparing 1022 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,600 Speaker 1: it to Plato's original story. Um, you know that said 1023 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,400 Speaker 1: I came up with four candidates in the book. There 1024 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: are others that are you know, not far behind. You know, 1025 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,799 Speaker 1: we can't have two original Atlantis. Is it's possible, you know, 1026 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,600 Speaker 1: one or two or three cataclysms were put together in 1027 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,080 Speaker 1: one story. But it's it's you know, it's not as 1028 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:38,960 Speaker 1: neat a packages we would hope it would be. What 1029 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,920 Speaker 1: are your what are your feelings about the kind of 1030 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,799 Speaker 1: more out there? I mean, you know people have said 1031 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 1: it's on the east coast, or it's you know, an antarctic, 1032 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,880 Speaker 1: or what's your sense about that? You know, I I 1033 00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,839 Speaker 1: have very little patients for that stuff, because you know, 1034 00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,759 Speaker 1: it's it's carry yeah, the earth crust displaced, and it's like, 1035 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, look at this map. It 1036 00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,600 Speaker 1: matches this map of Atlantis. It's like, okay, a the 1037 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,720 Speaker 1: map of Antarctica you're you're using, which your cherry picking, 1038 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,680 Speaker 1: is from the nineteen fifties. We have a lot more recent, 1039 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,560 Speaker 1: uh maps than that, you know, be as I confirmed 1040 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: when I was in Alaska a few weeks ago and 1041 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,560 Speaker 1: they're talking about how the land is rising because the 1042 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,800 Speaker 1: glaciers are melting um there's isostatic rebound, which means that 1043 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,120 Speaker 1: in Atlantic Antarctica that had no ice on it would 1044 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,800 Speaker 1: be much further out of the water and have a 1045 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,640 Speaker 1: very different shape. So don't tell me this looks like this, 1046 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:41,000 Speaker 1: and see the map of Atlantis that you're comparing it 1047 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,840 Speaker 1: to is something that a guy drew in sixteen sixty 1048 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: six and just kind of made up, you know, you know, 1049 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,800 Speaker 1: so so you know, I don't think, you know. And 1050 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,000 Speaker 1: then they're like, well, I think that map was actually 1051 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,600 Speaker 1: passed down from so long. It's like, you know, Plato 1052 00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,080 Speaker 1: doesn't say anything about a map. As far as we know, 1053 00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,160 Speaker 1: people were not drawing maps, you know, at that time. 1054 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 1: So the you know, the idea that you know, we 1055 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: have an ancient map, while totally cool and the basis 1056 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,760 Speaker 1: for a great fictional movie, uh, it makes you know, 1057 00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 1: no no sense logically, Yeah, I gotta agree with that. 1058 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: So we're left with, um, I don't know, the middle 1059 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,919 Speaker 1: of the Mediterranean or maybe the coast of Spain. I'm 1060 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm discounting Morocco because if they did indeed kind of 1061 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 1: canal to the sea, then the canal would have had 1062 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,680 Speaker 1: to have been many hundreds of feet deep. So you know, 1063 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's like I said, it's possible that they 1064 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 1: had um a settlement on the coast as well as 1065 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 1: this circular ring thing, which is extremely cool. There's probably 1066 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 1: the most interesting circular ring, you know, the thing I 1067 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 1: saw in all my time, um around the Mediterranean. You know. 1068 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 1: But my guess is if it did exist in you know, 1069 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,200 Speaker 1: some form similar to what Plato described, it was probably 1070 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,440 Speaker 1: in the western Mediterranean, um. You know. And there's a 1071 00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:01,400 Speaker 1: lot of information being past worth mouth by you know, sailors, 1072 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:06,080 Speaker 1: the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, um around that time, and you knows, 1073 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: as I point out in the book, remember um, the 1074 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:14,440 Speaker 1: part of the Mediterranean near the Strait of Gibraltar is um, 1075 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, run by the Carthaginians around the time of Plato. 1076 00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:22,240 Speaker 1: So you know, they're passing false propaganda back to the 1077 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,520 Speaker 1: Greek saying like, you know, here's all the crazy stuff 1078 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,080 Speaker 1: that's going on outside the mouth of the Mediterranean. Don't 1079 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,600 Speaker 1: go out there, you know, because here's what you're going 1080 00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:34,880 Speaker 1: to encounter. Um right, exactly did some of the game 1081 00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,520 Speaker 1: that get tied in with uh, you know the stories 1082 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,440 Speaker 1: of Plato heard while he was visiting Syracuse, you know, 1083 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,680 Speaker 1: after the death of Socrates, who knows, who knows? You know. Unfortunately, 1084 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,440 Speaker 1: we you know, we can't just go back to the 1085 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: original sources here, um bus. Information was not invented like 1086 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,840 Speaker 1: this yesterday, no no, no, no, no, no, no no for 1087 00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:58,600 Speaker 1: a while exactly exactly so now, but I would guess 1088 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: probably blee, you know, somewhere in the western Mediterranean. What 1089 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,760 Speaker 1: I was I was talking to Stavros Papa Mironopolis not 1090 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,200 Speaker 1: too long ago, or emailing with him. Um. What he 1091 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,160 Speaker 1: wants to do is a major survey of the site 1092 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,880 Speaker 1: in southern Spain, you know, major geophysical survey which has 1093 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,280 Speaker 1: not yet been done. Unfortunately that the spot he wants 1094 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:24,680 Speaker 1: to look at is in a nature reserve, well, you 1095 01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,960 Speaker 1: know Dunyana National Park. It would be like going to 1096 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 1: the middle of uh, you know, Yosemite with a bunch 1097 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,720 Speaker 1: of ground penetrating radar and things like that, being like, okay, 1098 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,439 Speaker 1: just animals stepped aside for a little while, it's gonna 1099 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,880 Speaker 1: be I know that this particular side has also been proposed. 1100 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,919 Speaker 1: This is near Cadiz, Spain, has been proposed. Is also 1101 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:47,120 Speaker 1: possibly the side of Tar Tessos the lawsuit. And you 1102 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:52,080 Speaker 1: talked to one academic who claimed that a massive tsunami 1103 01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:54,720 Speaker 1: had wiped out this city, which he believes with Atlantis, 1104 01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:56,919 Speaker 1: and that there were just tons and tons and tons 1105 01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,840 Speaker 1: of like stones and stone blocks from the city in 1106 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,880 Speaker 1: the ocean. That it true or is that did he 1107 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: just kind of make no? I think I think that 1108 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,360 Speaker 1: was exaggerated. That was a TV version of events. Um, 1109 01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,920 Speaker 1: what happened is that a guy came in with a 1110 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:18,720 Speaker 1: TV crew and they wanted, um, a documentary on Atlantis. 1111 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,880 Speaker 1: So they kind of took work that one team of 1112 01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,520 Speaker 1: Spaniards was doing in the area and sort of twisted 1113 01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,720 Speaker 1: it into this more Atlantean thing that showed up on TV. 1114 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,920 Speaker 1: And everyone except the guy who sort of parachuted in 1115 01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,040 Speaker 1: from the US. Uh was you know, shocked when the 1116 01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,360 Speaker 1: thing came out there, like, what what the hell is this? 1117 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: From your book? I gathered they weren't they weren't too pleased. 1118 01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 1: But no, they were not, you know. I mean that 1119 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,240 Speaker 1: one of the guys who was with him, this this 1120 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 1: other German named Rhiner Cune. You know, he's he's a physicist. Uh, 1121 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: he's got as Berger's so he is like, you know, 1122 01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 1: speaking you know, pure truth. He is unable to lie 1123 01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:01,640 Speaker 1: about anything. And when I asked him about this, he 1124 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,920 Speaker 1: said how did he put He's like, well, they are 1125 01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:09,880 Speaker 1: there with the TV crew they can say like the Spaniards, 1126 01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,400 Speaker 1: Oh look, maybe this was a horse enclosure from the 1127 01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,000 Speaker 1: fourteenth century a d. No one is going to give 1128 01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,160 Speaker 1: you money for that. So then they turned to me 1129 01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:22,640 Speaker 1: and I say, maybe this was Atlantis or maybe not. 1130 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 1: So they put me on TV for maybe two minutes 1131 01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,560 Speaker 1: actually I think it was one minute and thirty two seconds. 1132 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,560 Speaker 1: So then they turned to the other man and he says, yes, 1133 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,840 Speaker 1: this was Atlantis, and I found stones in the water 1134 01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,000 Speaker 1: and everything, and that is how they make their money 1135 01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:42,600 Speaker 1: for the TV show exactly. Yeah, I think Rehner's version 1136 01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,120 Speaker 1: of events is about as unfiltered as it can get. That. Yeah, 1137 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,800 Speaker 1: that sounds about right to me. All Right, So you 1138 01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 1: guys have any more you want to talk about. No, 1139 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,800 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Mark, we've I know, we we've 1140 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,320 Speaker 1: taken up an hour of your afternoon already and don't 1141 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,040 Speaker 1: want to take up too much more. Yeah, No, it's fine, 1142 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,720 Speaker 1: it's fine. Is so. I mean, we've asked a bunch 1143 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,840 Speaker 1: of questions so far, and I think we're kind of 1144 01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,320 Speaker 1: running through. So just from your perspective, is there things 1145 01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,080 Speaker 1: about Atlantis or the story of Atlantis that you want 1146 01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,680 Speaker 1: people to know that that we haven't come up or 1147 01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 1: come across so far to in today's conversation. You know, 1148 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:22,800 Speaker 1: I think the thing that is really fun about the 1149 01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:27,400 Speaker 1: Atlantis story is that you know this, this is it's 1150 01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,440 Speaker 1: it's like a puzzle to be decoded, and nobody has 1151 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,840 Speaker 1: decoded it. And you know, everybody is so busy coming 1152 01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,560 Speaker 1: up with these crazy theories about how there was a 1153 01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, tropical paradise on Antarctica and then suddenly the 1154 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 1: Earth's crust shifted and it was covered by two miles 1155 01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,520 Speaker 1: of ice um or you know, the world was you know, 1156 01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,640 Speaker 1: thrown into the orbit of a comment or you know this, 1157 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:52,960 Speaker 1: you know, stuff that people were talking about fifty years ago. 1158 01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,440 Speaker 1: You know, if you just sit down and look at 1159 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,760 Speaker 1: the story and read a little bit about Plato and 1160 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,480 Speaker 1: the things that he was talking about, you realize that 1161 01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,200 Speaker 1: there is it's like a treasure map that no one 1162 01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:09,360 Speaker 1: has figured out yet. You know, there's there's probably some 1163 01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,680 Speaker 1: sort of musical code buried in there. There's probably some 1164 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:15,439 Speaker 1: sort of numerical you know, number of games buried in there. 1165 01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:19,720 Speaker 1: There's probably, I would guess, you know, greater than chance 1166 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,800 Speaker 1: that there is the kernel of a historic event or 1167 01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,600 Speaker 1: maybe a series of historic defense in there. So, you know, 1168 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 1: rather than coming at it as I've got an idea 1169 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:31,480 Speaker 1: of where Atlantis is and I'm going to you know, 1170 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,840 Speaker 1: sort of retrofit this and look for evidence and cherry 1171 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,880 Speaker 1: pick what I want to prove my theory. Um, you know, 1172 01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,840 Speaker 1: go in there and look at what's there, and you know, 1173 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,320 Speaker 1: do a little research. There's a lot to be found 1174 01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,800 Speaker 1: out about this Atlantis story, and you know, if it 1175 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,160 Speaker 1: does turn out to be largely true, it will you know, 1176 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you know, rewrite a good chunk 1177 01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,440 Speaker 1: of ancient history and if not. There's gonna be a 1178 01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,920 Speaker 1: lot of other interesting things to be found in there. Well, 1179 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,400 Speaker 1: there's uh, there's certainly no shortage of interesting stuff at 1180 01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:06,160 Speaker 1: the bottom of the ocean, I'm sure, because after the 1181 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,720 Speaker 1: end of the last glacial period, I mean, the sea 1182 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,680 Speaker 1: levels rose hugely, and so there's down there. You know. 1183 01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:14,560 Speaker 1: I went up and I talked to the guys at 1184 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,800 Speaker 1: woods Hole who you know, found the uh, the Titanic, 1185 01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,040 Speaker 1: and they're showing, you know, all this stuff that they 1186 01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:22,400 Speaker 1: can use. It's like, you know, hey, we have a 1187 01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,760 Speaker 1: camera that if the water is clear, uh, you know, 1188 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,080 Speaker 1: we can see a cinder block from a mile away. 1189 01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,280 Speaker 1: And I said, Tom, They're like, you know, think about it, 1190 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,040 Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago, fifteen thousand years ago, sea levels 1191 01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:38,000 Speaker 1: are rising. Um, we've already got we know there were 1192 01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,920 Speaker 1: settlements around the Mediterranean even and you know, look at 1193 01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:43,960 Speaker 1: the I can't remember how to pronounce the name of 1194 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:45,800 Speaker 1: the place in Turkey was about ten thousand years go, 1195 01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:50,680 Speaker 1: Bigley Tepe or whatever. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, So you 1196 01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:54,320 Speaker 1: know we know that there were fairly large settlements, fairly 1197 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,440 Speaker 1: large you know, uh structures and things like that. And 1198 01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:01,440 Speaker 1: he said, you know, where do you build a settlement, 1199 01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:03,640 Speaker 1: a city in the ancient world. You hit it where 1200 01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:06,600 Speaker 1: you put it, where a river hits the sea. Well, 1201 01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,080 Speaker 1: what are the first places to disappear when the water 1202 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:15,040 Speaker 1: starts rising by ten fift you know, a floodplain where 1203 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,240 Speaker 1: the river hits the sea. And you know, so many 1204 01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:22,080 Speaker 1: of these places have never really been looked at. Um, 1205 01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, to a really granular degree. Um. And he said, 1206 01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,360 Speaker 1: I said, you know, well, why don't people do this? 1207 01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,720 Speaker 1: Could you, you know, could you begin to start to 1208 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,040 Speaker 1: think about, you know, where these places might be hitting 1209 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,240 Speaker 1: sort of waves me off. He's like, we can start 1210 01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,840 Speaker 1: tomorrow if we had the money. So it's not that 1211 01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,240 Speaker 1: these things are impossible, it's just that, you know, there 1212 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,520 Speaker 1: isn't the money to to, you know, go around with 1213 01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: a submarine and look for the lost cities of the Mediterranean. 1214 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:51,840 Speaker 1: But I think, you know, as as you know, the 1215 01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,040 Speaker 1: price of things fall over time. UM. I think we'll 1216 01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,720 Speaker 1: keep coming up with interesting stuff that's out there. I hope. 1217 01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,080 Speaker 1: I think that they're probably if they responded by emails. Ever, 1218 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:08,600 Speaker 1: I think a huge fleet of autonomous underwater vehicles mapping 1219 01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:12,240 Speaker 1: the ocean floor could actually find a lot of interesting stuff. 1220 01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,360 Speaker 1: And and you know, I mean, let's face it, Google 1221 01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:15,840 Speaker 1: is going to have to be the one probably to 1222 01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,280 Speaker 1: do this or someone like that, you know. I mean 1223 01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:20,920 Speaker 1: the other problem is that, you know, would what you 1224 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:22,760 Speaker 1: know used to occur to me at three o'clock in 1225 01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,600 Speaker 1: the morning while writing this book was you know, the 1226 01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,320 Speaker 1: chances are if there was in Atlantis on the coast 1227 01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,600 Speaker 1: of the western Mediterranean, you know, it's probably under a 1228 01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:38,640 Speaker 1: condo complex or a golf course exactly. You know, you know, 1229 01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,400 Speaker 1: one of the great mysteries of all time might be 1230 01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,280 Speaker 1: you know, sitting at the bottom of a landfill in 1231 01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,640 Speaker 1: you know, the Costa delle Soult. Absolutely. You know. That's 1232 01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,040 Speaker 1: the sad thing about ancient history too, is you know, 1233 01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,640 Speaker 1: I've I've studied a little bit of Greek history, etcetera. 1234 01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:55,240 Speaker 1: Back in the day, you know, they'd like, you know, 1235 01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,800 Speaker 1: overrun a city, kill all the men, sell the women 1236 01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,040 Speaker 1: and children into slavery, and then just as mats of 1237 01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,960 Speaker 1: the city and destroy it. Yeah. So it's it's kind 1238 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,080 Speaker 1: of sad all this stuff that's been just destroyed, and 1239 01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:07,960 Speaker 1: it you know, it continues to this day in in 1240 01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,720 Speaker 1: you know Macco where I went. You know, they're pulverizing 1241 01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,520 Speaker 1: these ancient ruins to make paint. You know, um in 1242 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,840 Speaker 1: Peru where I wrote about Machu Pichu. You know, there's 1243 01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,760 Speaker 1: a city outside or a structure outside of the city 1244 01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:25,120 Speaker 1: of Cousco called Saxa woman that you know, if that 1245 01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: we're still intact as it was. You know, when the 1246 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,400 Speaker 1: Spaniards arrived in fifteen thirty two. The descriptions they give, 1247 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,040 Speaker 1: it's like it's like the size of a battleship but 1248 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,240 Speaker 1: made of stone. And we still don't know exactly what 1249 01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:39,880 Speaker 1: it was there for. But over the next you know, 1250 01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,559 Speaker 1: four hundred something years, every time, you know, uh, jose 1251 01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,960 Speaker 1: Blow wants to build, you know, an extension on his bar, 1252 01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,599 Speaker 1: and he goes up to Saxo woman pulled down these 1253 01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:53,720 Speaker 1: nicely cut rocks, carts him off, and uh, you know 1254 01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:56,320 Speaker 1: it builds an extension on his house or whatever. So, 1255 01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, the same thing the Great Wallet's China. That's 1256 01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,120 Speaker 1: some of the problems, yeah, is that for for centuries, 1257 01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:08,439 Speaker 1: local guys have just been stealing rocks right and right 1258 01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:10,639 Speaker 1: just to make their house or their fence or whatever 1259 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,439 Speaker 1: they needed right. So you know, just to think of 1260 01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,960 Speaker 1: the things that we are never going to know because 1261 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,559 Speaker 1: they've been repurposed. Um, and I'm sure we're doing stupid 1262 01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:21,320 Speaker 1: stuff like right that right now, but we just haven't 1263 01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,120 Speaker 1: realized what it is yet. Um No, I really appreciate 1264 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,280 Speaker 1: you taking the time to talk with this. This was 1265 01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,840 Speaker 1: fantastic pleasure. I love your podcast, and I appreciate you 1266 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:31,200 Speaker 1: know the fact that you guys were able to get 1267 01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,000 Speaker 1: together on a Saturday morning. Um. I know it's not 1268 01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:38,120 Speaker 1: always easy to herd cats, so I really appreciate that. 1269 01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,080 Speaker 1: We appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. 1270 01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,240 Speaker 1: And by the way, the book was great. Highly recommend it. 1271 01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:47,840 Speaker 1: Meet me in Atlantis. I say it it. You know. 1272 01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,759 Speaker 1: It did okay in a hardcover, but now that's in paperback. 1273 01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,559 Speaker 1: It's selling pretty well. What that means, I don't know. 1274 01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,760 Speaker 1: And maybe you know people who like Atlantis are only 1275 01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:01,280 Speaker 1: willing to pay twelve dollars from I could just killing 1276 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,559 Speaker 1: you know. We we have about three listeners, so I'm 1277 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:05,840 Speaker 1: sure at least a lot of that mus got to 1278 01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,200 Speaker 1: buy a copy of the book. I'll check the iTunes 1279 01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,160 Speaker 1: comments and see that's so. Just so you have an 1280 01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,759 Speaker 1: idea when we get close, I'll send you an email 1281 01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,120 Speaker 1: just so you know it's coming out. Oh cool, I 1282 01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:18,800 Speaker 1: appreciate that. I so you don't spend an hour and 1283 01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:20,840 Speaker 1: a half talking to three Yahoo's and then it never 1284 01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:24,559 Speaker 1: goes out. And I mean, you know, you guys are pros. 1285 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:28,360 Speaker 1: You know what to do. Yeah, we're pros, right, you 1286 01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,160 Speaker 1: trust me if you could, if you know, in like 1287 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,000 Speaker 1: the first forty eight hours after a hardcover book comes out, 1288 01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:36,839 Speaker 1: you essentially have to agree to do every single interview. 1289 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:42,000 Speaker 1: So do you know how many drive time Yah? Who's 1290 01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:46,120 Speaker 1: uh you know I had to talk to about Atlantis? Yeah, 1291 01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:58,040 Speaker 1: and the questions they're just like level the actually have 1292 01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:01,400 Speaker 1: a conversation, you know, did you try on the Bahamas? 1293 01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,800 Speaker 1: Heard the Atlantis down there really nice? Now they've got that, 1294 01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,120 Speaker 1: They've got that whole road system down there in the Bahamas. 1295 01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:10,960 Speaker 1: As someone who worked on a cruise ship in the Bahamas, 1296 01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:16,639 Speaker 1: that Atlantas not nice as it turns out. We hope 1297 01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,519 Speaker 1: that one gets hit by earthquakes and floods. Yeah, I hope. 1298 01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:25,439 Speaker 1: It's so occasionally I do that George Nourry Coast to 1299 01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,880 Speaker 1: Coast show when it is out, you know, and George 1300 01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:30,800 Speaker 1: is actually okay, he's you know, he's crazy, He's like, 1301 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, Aliens really coming to take our guns. Um, 1302 01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,479 Speaker 1: you know, but if he'll allow you to direct the 1303 01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,799 Speaker 1: conversation back to uh, you know, sort of normal territory. 1304 01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,559 Speaker 1: And a lot of the times when I do shows 1305 01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,440 Speaker 1: like that, it's because I always think of like, um, 1306 01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, have you you ever seen the book Chariots of 1307 01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:53,040 Speaker 1: the Gods. Oh yeah, I don't know how much Tony 1308 01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,760 Speaker 1: O'Connell told me. I heard Ira Glass tell almost the 1309 01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,040 Speaker 1: identical story. There's so many people who came to things 1310 01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,960 Speaker 1: like Atlantis, starting out with Chariots of the Gods, and 1311 01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:04,479 Speaker 1: then at a certain point they realized that this is 1312 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:06,639 Speaker 1: all a bunch of crap, but it is actually interesting. 1313 01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:09,080 Speaker 1: And if you know, if I can find one out 1314 01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,920 Speaker 1: of ten of those people, uh, you know, then it's worthwhile. 1315 01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:16,519 Speaker 1: Then it's worth you know, sitting through the the caller 1316 01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:20,519 Speaker 1: Question portion of George Norry's show where it's like, I'll 1317 01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,599 Speaker 1: leave you one one last anecdote that I hope it's 1318 01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,560 Speaker 1: mildly amusing. I go on coast to coast for the 1319 01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,160 Speaker 1: Atlantis book. You know. George is like, well, let's take 1320 01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,439 Speaker 1: some calls, and some guy comes on and he says, 1321 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,479 Speaker 1: I think Atlantis was located in Finland because in the 1322 01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,080 Speaker 1: Finnish language is a weird it sounds like Atlantis. And 1323 01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:43,679 Speaker 1: also it's the same thank you goodbye. The next day, 1324 01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm on do you know the show, the NPR show, 1325 01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,519 Speaker 1: What is it on? Point out of Boston? And it's 1326 01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:50,320 Speaker 1: a it's a gas host. It's a woman. She's like, 1327 01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:53,439 Speaker 1: we're having a really interesting conversation here with Mark Adams. 1328 01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:56,560 Speaker 1: He's the author of a new book. Meet me in Atlantis. 1329 01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna take some calls here. Um, I got Bill 1330 01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:03,160 Speaker 1: from Wisconsin, the clicks. I think Atlantis is from Finland. 1331 01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:11,000 Speaker 1: The weird in the finish Atlantis and it's a team goodbye. Really, 1332 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:12,920 Speaker 1: what I'm learning from this interview is that Mark should 1333 01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:16,320 Speaker 1: be a voice actor. This is really what I'm learning 1334 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:18,479 Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, you might have a second career there, 1335 01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:23,479 Speaker 1: let's hope. Yeah, I have my founding college. Actually was asking. 1336 01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:25,639 Speaker 1: He's like, I think I could get a career. It's 1337 01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,240 Speaker 1: like a voice actor, you know in video games. Yeah. 1338 01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,960 Speaker 1: I was like, have a plan B, you know, writing, 1339 01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:36,599 Speaker 1: follow your dream, but have a plan B always. Now, 1340 01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,840 Speaker 1: my backup plan is to be a hand model. If 1341 01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:52,639 Speaker 1: this Devin's losing it out, He's showing us alright, alright, Mark, 1342 01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,439 Speaker 1: well again, thank you so much. We really do appreciate it. 1343 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:57,559 Speaker 1: All right, guys, I really appreciate you. Need anything else, 1344 01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,640 Speaker 1: just let me know, alright, contact or guys. Take care, 1345 01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,440 Speaker 1: Yeah you do. Bye bye