WEBVTT - Tracking and Identifying COVID-19 Cases 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.960 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.480 Jason Kelly. We're here every day bringing you the latest 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.800 news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.480 all harnessing the power of Bloomberg Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.639 not to mention our hundred journalists and analysts more than 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.280 a hundred and twenty countries. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.200 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You can 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.520 also listen to our radio show weekdays at two pm 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.520 Eastern only on Bloomberg Radio Well Testing Tracing. They are 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.400 at the core of everything that happens going forward. We 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.640 hear about it from the President, we hear about it 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:40.200 from experts on the Coronavirus Task Force, from governors, from mayors, etcetera. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.080 Let's talk to someone who is working on this on 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.360 the front lines on a national level. Anita Cicero is 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.400 deputy director of Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. It's 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.040 part of the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health. 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.240 As you might tell by the name, the Bloomberg School 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.440 of Public Health is supported by Mike Bloomberg. He's the 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.360 founder of Bloomberg LP, Bloomberg Philanthropy's parent company of this 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.880 radio station. Anita, So good to talk to you. Good 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.840 to be here, Jason. So what you're doing, as I said, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.280 is just really at the crux of all of this. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.800 This is going to determine what happens next. Where are 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.960 we when it comes to really rolling out a plan 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:23.720 to find cases and to trace folks, Well, we we 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.880 do need a national plan for that, and so far 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.920 UM there has not been one. UM CDC has provided 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.080 some useful guidance, and UM talked about the role of 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:42.440 contact tracing and fighting the pandemics. But we developed our 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.319 own report on testing and contact tracing because we really 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:48.800 feel that that is the thing that's going to make 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.920 the difference UM in this outbreak. And for contact tracing, 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.600 it just involves finding out who an infected person came 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.680 in contact with, so that those individuals to be alerted 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.440 and UM and also quarantined in order to monitor their 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:07.880 health and to make sure that they don't continue spreading 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.320 the virus UM in public. UM. So this is critically 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.000 important at this juncture, especially if we're going to be 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.880 lifting social distancing. I gotta say I need to Every 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:19.760 morning I wake up, I throw on Google and I say, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:21.440 you know, give me the top news headlines and I 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.600 hear about what's going on around the country. In terms 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.960 of starting these efforts UM to get control of the virus. 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.760 Tell me how a testing and tracing system will work, 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.000 what's the money needed to implement it, what are the 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.560 people needed to implement it, and what does someone like 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:37.680 me at home or Jason at holm, what do we 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.120 need to know about it? And what will we ultimately 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:45.560 need to do to make this work? All very good questions. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:50.480 So UM UH contact tracing is something that's it's really 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:55.760 a traditional, old, tried and true method of being able 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:00.440 to trace UH the spread of infection and to control 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.280 the infections so that it's not spread further. And public 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.800 health agencies across the US have been doing this for years. 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.880 They do it UM to track these those cases tuberculosis 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.200 UM sexually transmitted infections. So this is something that our 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.880 state and local public health agencies know how to do UM. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:26.280 Now that being said, they are understaffed and underfunded. I 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.680 think public health budgets UM in the past fifteen years 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:34.520 have been cut by UM. Most public health agencies in 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.800 the United States before COVID did not have UM staff 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.400 that were dedicated full time to contact tracing. This is 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.440 one of the many, many things that public health does 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.520 UM in the course of their their jobs. And so 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.200 what what is really needed is to have funding that 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:56.040 will go to the state, the state UM public health 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.440 departments and local public health departments so that they can 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.240 do a cup things UM. One is really to hire 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:08.520 a significant number of of workers UM or use volunteers 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.040 and train them so that they can assist with contact 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:17.560 tracing methods and also UM to to maybe make use 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.039 of some new technologies that may be coming online soon 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.119 that can assist with contact tracing UM. And in terms 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.279 of what is is UM, what's important to know about 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.279 this is that you know, we are all very you know, 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:38.120 it's desperate to get back to life as maybe not 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.719 completely normal, but more normal than we are living through 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:47.080 right now with these strict social distancing requirements. And the 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.920 key to being able to circulate again in public is 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.360 for the United States to know where all of its 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:59.800 COVID cases are UM, so to to use the testing 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.080 to order in order to identify all those cases and 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:07.599 then also be able to contact people who could have 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.200 been exposed to a confirmed case to make sure that 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:15.080 they're quarantined for fourteen days and stay out of circulation. UM. 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.720 Once we're able to do that, then and we we 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.760 know more or less where the cases are than others 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.159 who are not infected and who weren't exposed, UM will 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:29.360 be more able to go to work and and UM 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.400 and go to more you know, shops and and you know. Again, 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.960 it will be a while before things are completely back 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.560 to normal, but at least that it would allow social 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:43.360 distancing measures to be relaxed. So it is really important 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.840 UM in order to try to get this right. So 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.240 Anita and we're going to continue our conversation just a 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.919 few minutes, but in about a minute, tell us, I 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:57.080 mean collaboration and coordination seems really important. How confident are 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.480 you that we can do this between the federal and 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:05.720 eight and local levels. Well, again, we need funding. I 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.839 really have a lot of confidence in UM, state and 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.600 local public health officials to be able to have given 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.599 the resources to be able to manage UM these programs 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.839 and UM we can talk more about it. But the 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.280 training that's required it's not that extensive or that complicated. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.359 So this is something that can be done. It's not 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.279 a moonshot, it's just the unesting it needs to be 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.400 there to hire the workforce. Still with us as a 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.239 need assist or a deputy director of Johns Hopkins Center 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.719 for Health Security, Johns Hopkins University, Bloomberg School of Public 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.040 Health joining us from Washington, d C. I need one 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.039 thing I did want to get from you, because you 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.040 folks at Johns Hopkins have just been incredible in terms 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.479 of keeping track of the virus and really giving a 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.279 good indication and perspective on where we are, where we're going, 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:54.680 where we need to be going, based on you know, 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.320 the actions of everybody around the country. You also, you're 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.279 a lawyer, You've worked in Washington. You unders and pharmaceuticals, 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:06.520 the regulatory framework, UM, the policy framework. Uh, what do 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.360 you think is realistic in terms of us actually getting 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:17.000 a vaccine that can tackle this virus? Well, I that's 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:21.559 the you know, million dollar question right there. UM. And 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.440 the good news is that I think governments, UM, and 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:31.400 international organizations and industry are all focused on that goal 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.840 UM and working very hard, UM contributing a lot of 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.440 funding for that UM. I think that in in our country, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.440 um F d A has shown some flexibility in terms 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:51.880 of regulatory issues surrounding UM development of vaccine UM. But 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.080 the you know, the fact is that it's really critical 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.800 to have randomized controlled trials to prove um the f 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.320 can see and and also you know safety of vaccines 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.800 that come online, and to do that well, UM, it 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.040 does take some time. So I think it's gonna require 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.880 some patients. I I'm optimistic that we will get there ultimately, 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.080 but it's um, it's unlikely to be right around the corner. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:25.360 But this year or next year. I would not um 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.760 place my bets that will happen this year, Okay, but 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.080 you know, one can hope right right well, and and 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.800 certainly you know, some of the treatment on the treatment side, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.960 of the therapeutic side obviously, So I'm not great news today, 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.040 uh from Gilead. You know. Meanwhile, closer to home here 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.600 in New York, you know, we got some data that 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.640 was it feels like at least as being interpreted as 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.920 somewhat positive in the sense of the spread and the 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:57.680 number of people who have developed antibodies here Anita, what 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.280 does that tell us and how does that figure into 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.520 this tracing project that you're working on. Naturally, when you 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.240 see figures like that coming out of New York and 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.400 New York City, especially where you know upwards of people 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.600 you know have been exposer actually have had the virus 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.400 and now have the antibodies. Help us understand how this 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:26.120 all fits together well. The testing and contact tracing in 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:31.679 addition to UM antibody testing which is called strology testing, 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.400 are all part of a disease surveillance system and they 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.240 would all have a role to play. UM. I think 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.559 there's a lot of hope that eventually there'll be enough 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.320 cases in you know, particular population to say, oh, now 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.760 we have herd immunity lenning enough people have been exposed 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:56.000 that UM, they're less likely to continue to be infected UM. 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:00.440 But even though there are some encouraging signs for different 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.520 places based on strology testing, UM, we there's no community 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.760 that is close to herd immunity UM. I think that 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:14.400 in terms of the antibody tests to UM, because there 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:19.000 were some relaxed regulatory requirements UM and to try to 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.400 get tests out as soon as possible. UM. There's UM. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.240 It's sort of a mixed bag now. So some have 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:32.000 shown to have some you know, sensitivity UM issues and 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.320 and and problems and UM. And so I think that 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.439 FDA is sort of braining that back in a bit 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.480 and making sure that strology testing that is available is 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:47.080 you know, known to be reliable to determine the antibodies 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.080 and and then more work needs to be done really 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:54.959 to confirm that the presence of antibodies UM confers immunity 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.559 for people. And how long that immunity? Laughs, Hey, one 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.400 thing we wanted to ask you just got thirty seconds 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.960 here the hardest hit area, New York. They're finding that 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.679 over the people tested positive for a blood marker that 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.800 they had been infected at some point with the virus. 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.360 Just again about twenty five seconds. What what's important about 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:16.040 that that we need to know just quickly. Well, it 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.600 could be that those those people therefore have the anti 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:24.840 bodies and would not be UM reinfected with COVID anytime, 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:29.680 you know, for months at least UM. But also potentially 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:35.240 they could participate and donate UM plasma for UM other 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.440 patients UM who needed in order to help build their 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.240 anti bodies up to protect against the disease. All right, 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.920 all right, we really appreciate it, Thank you so much. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.160 Great contacts. Anitasis Row Deputy director of John's Hopkins Center 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.199 for Health Security at the Bloomberg School of Public Health, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.680 obviously the Bloomberg School of Public Health supported by Mike Bloomberg, 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.360 founder of Bloomberg LP. You are listening to bloom Burg 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.840 Business Week, and you know, Carol, when we map out 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.360 our show, there are some moments that I look forward 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.600 to just as a way to sit back, sort of 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.560 rest into the show and just talk to a really 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.439 smart person. And I know this is that moment. Joanas Sarah. 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.000 I love Joe No Sarah, one of my favorite folks, 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.720 been reading his stuff for years and now listening to 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.040 the dulcin sound of his voice. So we're buttering you 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.040 up because we really I'm telling you, I really like you. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:30.960 Guys just want to you guys, just want to take 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:36.600 a rest and let me talk. We would do that. Um, 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.480 I was gonna I was gonna pump up your podcast 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.679 a little bit. The Shrink next door. It's perfect quarantine 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.040 listening if you if you're like one of the three 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.040 people in America hasn't already listened to it. But um, 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.360 we find you in Southampton, safe and sound, I hope. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.720 And also what's it like out there? Can we ask 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.400 you what's it like out there. Well, let me just 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.760 put it this way. One maintenance is an essential sentual activity. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.640 You're working in the art a lot. No. No, what 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:11.839 I'm saying is people are people are the workers, the 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.240 law business are are just going crazy out here. It's 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.720 like it's kind of unbelievable, really, um, I mean, and 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.880 then most of the ways were like everybody else, everybody's 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.719 wearing a mask. You can't go into certain stores. There's 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.840 a ton of takeout because, um, you know, there's somebody. 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:28.840 New Yorkers are together are so used to take out 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.439 that that all the restaurants are actually doing a pretty 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.480 good business. Um uh with take our pizza, take our pasta, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.240 take out, steaks, take out every day. Um. But you 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.080 know it's it's it's quiet. It's it's definitely quiet. All right. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.640 So what are the reasons we wanted to talk to 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.480 you today? Just and again, we we love talking to 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.079 you anytime. But I mean, you've had some some pretty provocative, 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:56.280 as you tend to columns, sort of taking stock of 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.080 where we are at this moment, especially when it comes 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.320 to the rescue that is underway. From the corporate side. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.120 You've written a number of books about this. You understand 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.360 the financial system really well and in the corporate world, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.640 what do you make of it so far? Because you 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.360 you've been a critic, I think it's fair to say 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.680 of how this is going well. I mean, the first 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.480 thing is the right way to do this, honestly, is 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.520 to put money in hands of the people, other than 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.520 trying to run it through a bank, uh and a business. 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.400 It's it's that's a crazy way to do it. And 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.680 you know, they're always in this. They're in this situation 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.080 now where they're just going to keep shoveling money to banks, 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.760 they're gonna keep shuggling to businesses. And it's been a 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.520 first It's first come for sure. So you know people 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.240 are saying, well, the big companies got it first, and 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.880 that's how I'm there. The big companies are organized, they 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.440 know how to do this, they know how to get 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.880 in the door. The little guy, the corner pizza joint, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.280 he needs help, and um, they're not going to get 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.560 that help for the federal government. So you know, I 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:08.320 just think that proceeding the way we are is the 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.520 wrong way to proceed. Let me just say one other 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.720 quick thing. I'm so tired of being jealous of Germany. 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.400 But they've done this so right. They've given every citizen 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.520 a stipend for a four or five months, and that's 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.800 the way they're they're keeping their economy and their their 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.240 country going. What do you think there's any appetite to 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.360 do that here? Or is is the horse out of 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.800 the barn? Now the horse is out of the barn, 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:39.560 and it's it's just something that UM America is you know, 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.720 idiologically America had a hard time with that, at least 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.120 on the right, especially on the right, and UM, I 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.320 just don't think we're going to go that way, even 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.040 though it's obviously the most sensible way to do this. Yeah, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:55.800 but how do we break the system general? I mean, 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.080 it's the big companies that listen or that you know 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.920 that lawmakers listen to. I mean, they're the ones that 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:06.400 have you know, the path direct path to Washington. Well, 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.960 you know, I don't blame this on the big companies. 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.680 I mean the big companies first of all, the ib ms, 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.400 the zeroctors, the h t s, they're they're gonna be fine, 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.640 They're gonna survive, They've got money in the bank. They're 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.200 they're all trying to keep their employees uh on the 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.400 payroll as much as they can. Um Uh. It's the 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.040 it's the the issue really is the small the small businesses, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:33.040 the corner scores. You know. I'm terrified that when we 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.080 come out of this, you know, of the small businesses 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.880 in America are going to be gone. And that's that's 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.160 the tragedy to be worried about. So Joe shifting gears 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.640 a little bit, maybe dramatically. I want to talk a 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.600 little bit about sports, because it's something you've written a 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.240 lot about, uh and specifically the n C Double A. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.000 What does the notion of for and it feels more 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.920 and more likely that we will not have certainly the 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.240 a measure of college sports and college football and everything 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.280 else that we're used to uh come this fall. What 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.639 are the implications of that for the business of sports 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.800 and for the business of the n C Double A. 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.280 And this model that you and others have essentially said 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:23.600 is speaking of fundamentally broken, fundamentally broken, right, Um, I 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.960 don't think there's going to be college football this year. 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.560 Um Uh. The athletic directors, you know, they got on 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.359 the phone with Pence a couple of weeks ago. He 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.440 wanted to talk to them, and they basically said, look, 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.320 if we don't have students on campus, we're not going 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.600 to have football, period, end of story, no matter, but 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.439 you want may want it. The the financial implications of 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:47.240 that are huge. Football is by far the uh you know, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.560 it's a two or three billion dollar enterprise, and then 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.439 basketball is a billion dollar enterprise for the nayah, that's 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.879 where they get most of their money. And if you 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.320 can't televise college football, um, it's gonna be deatist aiding 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.880 to the to the world of college football. And uh, 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.479 I I think it's just I think it could wind 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:12.760 up meaning that there's a ratcheting, huge ratcheting back of 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.439 what football is, what it means, what it will do 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:17.880 for the society. I I think it will be much 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:22.080 much harder for coaches just to um justify a million 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.560 dollars a year and sorry, and it's gonna also mean 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.240 and this is the first tragic part. Nobody's going to 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.800 drop their football team. But they're already starting to drop. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:36.680 You know, some some tennis teams, lacrosse teams, um universities 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.920 have petitioned the n c a A to be able 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.560 to go below fourteen sports, which is the n c 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.160 A a minimum. And I think you're gonna come out 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.399 of this with a lot of a lot of schools 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.959 having five or six sports only, which will be pretty devastating, 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.119 you know, because the real student athletes, the one to 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.040 play lacrosse, the ones who are never gonna be pro 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.920 and anything, they're the ones who are gonna get shafted. 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.840 Can I get word on the radio? Yeah, you just did. 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.800 It's done. It's out there in the Yeah. I do wonder. Yeah, 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.360 just that whole the whole um higher education world. What's 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.040 going to happen? I just had a story too about 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.800 you know, college is getting ready for students to ask 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:14.680 for more financial aid because their parents are going to 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.160 be out of work. I mean, it's just totally upended, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.320 right yeah. Yeah, And and the students, students are already 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:25.040 upset because the universities won't have refunds even though even 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.960 though they're stuck with online classes, they've given refunds for 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.280 room and board, but not for tuition. And there's a 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.600 big you know, look, if you're a senior, I mean, 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.120 and you're you've gotten in some place next year, wouldn't 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.320 you be aren't you gonna want to take up a 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:45.840 gap year just because you're just going to be the first. Yes, totally, 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.760 totally finances. I think the finances of college education could 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.240 finally implode um and and and many would say that 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.480 that time has come. All right, Jonah Sarah, you're the 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:03.399 best Bloomberg Opinion calumnists. Noted author calumness I do I 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.520 do to host at the shrink next door? You really 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.760 should check that out. It's going to be a movie soon. 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.240 Will Ferrell, Paul Road, come on, it's gonna who's gonna 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.639 miss that? This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.159 and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. You know, when we 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.840 were talking earlier to Joe No Sarah, we talked about 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.080 the n C Double A and obviously sports are a 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.240 part of the college experience, but only a part um, 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.680 even though for many of us it's the most important part. 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.919 But we won't get into that. But colleges, it's been 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.119 front of mind what colleges and universities are going to 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.320 do and what they're doing even in the meantime when 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.400 it comes to a Let's get into that and much 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.800 more with Janet Lawrence. She follows all things education for 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.680 us We love catching up with her. Got to start 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:52.280 with Harvard, Janet, what a week for them? Huh, yes, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.399 what a week? Well, and if you look at the 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.320 formula they the Education Department came up with formula sent 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:02.600 percent of it was based on you know that the 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.760 Bravo income students. The other share was based on the 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:10.920 total number is one of the largest universities. And that's 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:14.360 what they were. That's what they were allotted. And as 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.080 you saw, the President criticized them, and they decided yesterday 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.840 UM to say they're not going to accept the money. 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:27.760 And all of their wealthy peers has done the same, Um, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:29.760 They've all said the same thing, that they're not going 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.359 to take the money. Which I gotta say, you know, 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.280 we talked about this, Jason, I talked about this on 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.080 air and I said, well, you know this is they 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.120 didn't do anything wrong. This is the government program allowsing 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.600 this money. And man, people on Twitter came back and said, 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:44.359 you know, don't give Harvard a pass by saying the 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:46.320 government decided to send them the money, they need to 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:51.280 return it. I mean, it's considering that it's Harvard and 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.680 they actually didn't They actually didn't receive it. They they 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.320 were told this would be their allocation. Okay, but they 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:03.240 could have they couldn't. Yes, absolutely, the money was effectively 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.680 on the way. So what does it tell us, I guess, 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:12.720 Janet more broadly about what schools more broadly need, beyond 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.080 the Harvards, beyond the I v S and the Stanfords 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.520 of the world, because this is I think it's fair 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.119 to say, a time of crisis in higher education on 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:27.119 many fronts. Yes, absolutely, And we don't know who's showing 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.600 up in the fall. We don't know if the freshman 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.080 classes are going to be anywhere near where they need 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.160 to be to get the schools enough revenue to operate. 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.119 We don't know if the sophomore class is going to 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.159 be much smaller. We do know that the school the 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.679 students are going to be a lot meatier. So whatever 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.840 financially budgets they had previously, uh, it's going to be 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:50.680 very likely a lot bigger, and the schools will try 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.919 to accommodate that. But with fewer students, um they cancel 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.400 with a lot of their summer programs that give them 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:01.040 a really nice cushion of revenue they get every year, 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.639 and that money is just gone because they can't have 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.119 kids on campus. And they made you know, there was 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:09.720 a significant revenue generator having you know, thousands of high 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:12.400 school students coming to your campuses and selling the dorms, 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.639 having weddings, having band camps, hosting high school graduations, you 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:20.479 name it. That money's all gone now. Well, and I guess, Janet, 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.119 one of the things I keep coming back to is 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.879 this notion that most people would agree, especially people who 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.480 have to write the checks to send their kids to 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:31.119 college and the kids themselves going to college who have 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:36.080 some financial stake in the game, that college is extraordinarily expensive. 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.560