WEBVTT - Sarah Jones 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.240 Today's quote is from Lift as You Climb by viv 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:08.280 gross Scop. She's talking about this exercise where she encourages 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:12.160 people to say their full name and their title out 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:16.280 loud when introducing themselves because so few of us do, 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.759 and she says with a lovely amount of tough love, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.319 if you cannot say your name properly and confidently, and 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.880 you cannot say your job title without cringing, then I 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.560 really do question whether you are using your one precious 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.240 life in the way that you could be using it. 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.000 It's a great exercise for figuring out whether you're okay 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.280 with who you are, and maybe a sense of self 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.159 is what a lot of this work is really about. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:47.360 Are you okay with who you are? If so, be 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:52.120 it and say it. If you're not, then change something. 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.480 This sounds easy, but it is the work of a 0:00:54.560 --> 0:01:05.960 lifetime to be at ease with yourself. Welcome to the podcast. 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.640 That's all about the Voice, which means it's all about power. 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.840 Who has it, how we get it, how we sound 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.959 when we have it. I'm your host, Samarve, and this 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.520 is permission to speak, where we can throw all our 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.840 best ideas about how to get ourselves heard into the 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:36.279 pot and Start. Today's guest is Sarah Jones. She has 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.040 one Tony Award and an Obie Award for her one 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.680 woman shows, starting with Bridge and Tunnel, which was originally 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:48.240 produced by Meryl Streep and then went on to Broadway. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:54.320 Her TED mainstage talks have gotten millions and millions of views, 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.680 and I truly hope you go and check them out 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.160 after this if you haven't seen them already. She has 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.960 performed for the Bamba's. I mean, she's friends with Gloria 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:06.960 Steinham and Brian Stevenson and is a legend. I wanted 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.440 to have her on for obviously all of these reasons, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.360 but also because I remember the feeling when I saw 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.640 her first TED talk, which was like fifteen years ago. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:22.119 She does funny voices, guys, but I mean she does 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.840 so much more than that. She inhabits the bodies and 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.800 the worlds of the people that she plays, so that 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.080 the voices emerge out of the life experiences and hopes 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.280 and fears of the characters, which is how our voices work, 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.440 as I always like to talk about. And I mean 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:43.280 the other thing is that the people who live in 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.400 her and by the way it come out, all the time, 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.440 and it is bonkers and amazing. The people who live 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.880 in her are wrestling with their identities and with the 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.800 promise or the fake promise of the American dream. And 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.400 something that we talk about in this interview, which is 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.359 the very real urge to speak when it becomes stronger 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.760 than the fear of being seen and being heard. And 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.800 I loved this conversation and how much wisdom she is 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.240 full of as well as forces and uh, we went 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:29.600 a little long. You'll see why this is Sarah. I've 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.440 looked back over some of the videos where I'm like, 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.600 oh my god, did you really, you know, put yourself 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.560 into a public forum looking like that? And what it 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.840 teaches me is I'm too focused on how I look. 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.160 But that's the work. The work, the opportunity is like 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.280 a messy, it's a pandemic. I'm in the hospital, I'm 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:48.840 out of the hospital. I don't know how to talk 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.040 about that. I'm going to say all of that instead 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.640 of hiding it. And what it has done is opened 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.360 up a lot of space for me to feel a 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.240 little bit more connected. Although we can talk about zoom 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.080 and I'm not a social scientist a neurologist, but I'm 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.760 convinced that there's a sort of a you know, like 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.960 there must be a cognitive dissonance that's happening for all 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.600 of us collectively because we can FaceTime, we can zoom, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.320 we can WhatsApp or whatever, but you're not here. And 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.920 so I'm sort of tricked into feeling like I could 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.839 reach out and hug somemorrow right now, but you know, 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.120 I'm like, hey, there's nothing there. And I had this 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.520 boyfriend who didn't like to face time, and I was like, 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.400 what's down and hey, and he was like, it's not real, Sarah. 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:32.080 He was like this Vermont snowboarder, like you know, he 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.720 wanted to like hug trees and like rip them out 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:36.640 of the ground. I don't know, but he really made 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.760 this point that it's it is real, but it isn't. 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:41.880 And there was something very beautiful about that. And I'm 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.719 experiencing it now. It is connected, but I want to 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.719 be clear with myself. I'm not getting human you know, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.279 unmitigated eye contact and hug. I mean, and what you're 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.600 dipping into is also something that we're that we've had 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.360 to deal with for our entire lives as technology has 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.240 progressed like this and our physical bodies are all the 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.560 bodies of people from thousands of years ago, exactly, and 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:05.599 like there is something in our brain that is making 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.960 that connection, that is saying, especially in times like this 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.279 where we need connection, that is saying, this is good enough. 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.040 This is a ghost hug, right, it's I will, I 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.520 will envision a hug, I will see you, and those 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.160 two things together will do something that's better than nothing. 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.480 But on the other hand, no, it's not the same 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:26.800 as a real hug. Not the same. Sarah, Hi, Hi, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.080 how are you, my love? I'm okay, I'm okay. I 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.799 mean all everything you're talking about, it's so true. I think, um, 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:39.560 you were talking about the concept of lowering expectations and 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:43.600 I act right and reframing it as broadening. And I 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.960 actually wonder also if it's the expectations themselves that we 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.680 should be taking a closer look at, you know, I 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:53.240 mean a lot of this, a lot of what we 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.640 were talking about was the expectations we've set up for 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.560 ourselves of what it would look like if we had 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:04.040 everything put together. Yes, the myth, the myth of you know, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.920 we've all talked about it, the superwoman who has to 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.720 juggle everything and um, even as we try to get 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.640 into less you know, gender normative conversations about family. And 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.680 I'm not a mom, but I remember my mom who 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.159 it's interesting in this time of COVID, I'm thinking about 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.200 doctors differently. Both my mom and dad were doctors. Guess 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.320 who was responsible for maintaining you know, all the household 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.640 stuff and the kids. And my mom still she went 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.160 and delivered babies and was still expected to keep it 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.640 all together. And I think we haven't strayed very far 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.040 from that. We've just sort of ignored our limitation, like 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.440 our normal, healthy human limitations, and so we multitask and 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.000 we buy a million systems and things to keep ourselves, 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:55.120 you know, impossibly efficient and together. And I don't think 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.720 it's healthy for anybody. I was so excited to have 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:04.240 you on this podcast about voices, because hello, hello, we're 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.360 all here. By the way, we're all here, well good, 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.160 oh good high. I can't wait to maybe here a little. Um. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.760 They're all welcome, and this is my first podcast with 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.400 like ten people. But you know what I was thinking is, 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.440 you know, like it's such a surface level thing to 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.840 say that you do voices, because you know, yes you do, 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:28.280 and they're brilliant. And also you bring fully inhabited other 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.800 people onto the stage with you. I mean, for anyone 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.920 who's loosen your shows, starting with Bridge and Tunnel, which 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.280 ended up on Broadway, it's it's just you, but it's 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:41.360 also truly not thinking that you could do quote unquote 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.840 do funny voices and end up on Broadway. Like you 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:45.600 know what I mean. It was so wild to me 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.040 that the thing I had always done. I mean this 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.640 Lorraine Levin, oh idea, I brought my glasses. She even 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:56.040 though you can't shaming, which seems show hilly, but I 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.640 I if I can't, if I don't have my glasses, 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.800 I can't see any way, Sheeris started doing the voices, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.680 like she says, because her family, you know, she came 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.200 from the multicultural family, the black, the white. They intermarried 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.640 and all. It's very normal now. But anyway, um, I 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:21.080 think that it kept her feeling um playful as your child. 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.280 You know that she could do that, and she would 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.480 do it with her friends. I would I would do 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.960 I would do that with my friends. I know, I know. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.640 It's so interesting. It makes me think of you said, 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.240 I believe it was your first Ted talk. This is 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.920 a direct Sarah John's quote. You said, we're all born 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.959 into certain circumstances, with particular physical traits, unique developmental experiences, 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:46.880 geographical and historical contexts. But then what to what extent 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.280 do we self construct? To what extent do we self invent? 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.800 How do we self identify? And how mutable mutable is 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.559 that self identity? You know, obviously I came up through 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.840 doing dialect coaching with act or so it's in a 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.800 literal way. You know, when we put on a new accent, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.920 what does it reveal to us about how that character 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.480 has gone through their life and how they hold their body, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.000 and you know, how does it inform us? But it's 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.400 not just for actors. I mean that's really you know, 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.959 the heart of this work is what we're both talking 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.840 about in different ways, is how our life experiences are 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.040 reflected in our voice and what that says about how 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.200 we how we are perceived by others and how we 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.280 perceive ourselves. And also the part I want to talk 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.040 to you about is like this mutability issue, this idea 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.200 that like certain things we don't have control over and 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.720 then what do we do with the things we do? Yeah, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:41.640 thank you for that. I really as I was listening 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.880 to I was like, did I say that? But I 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:48.240 do remember writing that. I remember writing it because it 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.680 felt so true for me. It felt so kind of 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.280 essential as a question, who the hell am I? I 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.520 mean that really it was like who am I? Anyway? 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.959 Like like you said, how much does the outside gave 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.880 days of others? You know, inform who I am? Decide 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.360 who I am, decide whether I live or die? You know, 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.800 if you're a black or brown man or woman. Uh, 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.440 in an encounter with police, like how you're perceived, your 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.839 voice can be the difference between your survival or not. Um, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.080 so I will. I never want to be one of 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.040 those people who says, oh, you get to decide completely 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.280 everything about your fate. Absolutely not Yes, And we do 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.120 have right like we do. I mean the performance that 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.199 you help an act or find hopefully is as authentic 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.160 and beautiful as whatever they can muster using the tools 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.319 you're giving them. And then like all of us are 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.000 kind of performing a life right And what you're talking 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.320 about is such an important distinction or like lack of distinction, 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.720 which is on the one hand, performing what are we 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.559 putting on? Because it's interesting because we're becoming this person 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:58.199 because we're acting as if and what is a coping mechanism? Yes, 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.200 and knowing the difference, I think there's like, you know, 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.000 I'm paid as an as an actor to go on 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.120 stage or be in a film and be someone other 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.000 than I am. Then it's like, wait a minute. If 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.520 I'm having a low self worth moment at a party 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:15.760 and I turned to the guy next to me and decide, 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:17.839 I'm just going to be a sexy Naomi Campbell version 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.520 of myself or whoever, um, which I used to do 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.520 by the way I would when I was really nervous 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.680 at a party. If I felt like it, I would 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.079 just sort of slip into this and you would not believe. 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.800 First of all, I thought I was sexier, right, So 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.720 then these blokes were line up around me. I had 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.080 not changed one iota. My appearance didn't change. Nothing about 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.000 me changed. But something about this voice, of this alter 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.160 ego made me feel safer because I was fearful myself, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.800 and I realized, you can't do that. Number one, It 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:53.320 doesn't work out well for the relationship. But Elizabeth Holps 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.400 comes to mind. That's there's one cautionary tale. I could 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.080 tell you a few um It definitely makes the one 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.040 night stand. It's a lot of work to keep that up. 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:07.760 You gotta like maintain you know, Um, it's not easy 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.520 to maintend that. But I will say that's sort of 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.600 one end of the spectrum. But somewhere on that continuum, 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.800 you know, if I'm not careful, I'll pretend my way 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.560 through my day, through my life, uh, even in my 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.800 most intimate relationships and even with myself. And so I 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.080 think it is interesting whether it's voices. I mean, there's 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.280 like all my voices of like all my people. That's 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.440 not just a voice, Like I'm Bella, I'm a person, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.200 you know, and like I yeah, like I exist in 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.480 a context, like a radical feminist context, Abbie, And like 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:39.920 you know, when I think about Bella, she's not just 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.080 a vocal fry like a concave chested you know, self 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.640 deprecating but still wanting to be you know, powerful young 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.760 feminist because of her voice, Like she's it's not just 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.960 a voice, it's it's all of who she believes she is. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.000 And then how that gets questioned every moment of every day. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.960 And are we present enough to listen? Like? Am I 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.320 present enough to hear? Wait a minute, that was an 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.000 inauthentic thing I said. Just then, I don't really mean that. 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.240 I just told that person love you by do I 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.439 love them like at all? Or is it you know 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.240 what I mean? Like just checking in and being like, 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.120 what am I putting out into the world? And how 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.760 is there this kind of feedback loop between me and 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.320 the world and what I think I need to be 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.360 and how I think I need to sound or look 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.760 or you know, be in my life on the socials 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:34.400 or whatever. And then what I'm telling myself isn't adequate 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.560 about me. Maybe because of that, I think there's a 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.360 loop that can get started that's this is who I 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.120 have to be. And then oh, look, I'm not actually 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:47.720 really measuring up. And so I'm interested in how how 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.720 can we self reinvent? You know, how can we invent 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.680 ourselves or step more fully into who we actually are 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:00.800 in a way that makes our voice more authentic, more powerful, 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.240 and ultimately more loving. Right, because when you hate yourself, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.559 you go off and do things like make a giant tiger, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.560 you know, uh whatever, Like I couldn't watch the whole thing. 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.240 But no, I couldn't even started. I'm too much of 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.480 like an EmPATH, Like I got through it. I got 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:17.920 through it, but I got through some of it. But 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.960 it just it reminded me like, oh, when you're alienated 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.640 from yourself, you don't have access to your authentic voice 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.760 or your wants, your needs, And then how can you 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.280 be in a community like that? So I think in 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.960 some ways, you know, being in this pandemic is, um 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:41.560 it's an odd opportunity to really listen more closely to 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.880 ourselves and like ask who am I and how do 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.680 I feel? And what do I want and what do 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.160 I need? So I've really been thinking about voice in 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.360 that context. But of course, you know, everybody else comes 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.720 along too. That's Linda. Linda never comes out. You know 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.240 why because my nails are not done, and um, Lindsay 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.160 is like an old wool you know, New York City, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.360 Like the thing with the nails. She was like that man, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.880 you know, the manicure and um, now it's like, oh 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:10.600 my god, my nail's a naked Like she would be 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:11.800 the person to be like, oh my god, don't look 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:13.760 at my hands. Where did you? Where did you find 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.840 Linda Long Island? I was so my mom. I mentioned 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.960 my mom's a doctor. She had a private practice all 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:24.200 Long Long Islands with a Z a z at the end. 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.840 One no, just Long Islands, but you got to hit 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.720 the sibilant at the end. So Long Islands, you know 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:33.920 what I mean. Um, you could be from Staten Islands. 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:35.840 But there has like a little zizzizza at the end 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.560 of it, not plural, just a little little the D 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.480 and the T, the D and the T can handle. 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.840 And then it's also a New Jersey thing like tonight 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.720 with like this little the end and um, what are 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:53.600 we doing Tonight's yeah, I don't know. Anyway, Lindsa Lindsa, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.000 so there's even a little z in the Lindsa. Oh 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:01.640 my gou is Lindsa. You know. Um she represented the 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:07.280 sort of second third generation, you know, European immigrant wave 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.680 that then everybody went into you know, my brother is 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.640 a cop, my my sister sners, my husband's and electrician 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:16.920 like that, you know, sort of like this solid working 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:22.960 class um into middle class um white Long Island and 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:27.760 that's part of my family. Oh my guard. So anyway, um, 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.720 and then if you like went to nicest schools or whatever, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:32.000 it started to come out of you. And then you 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:33.560 went to n y U and you completely got rid 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.480 of it because it's embarrassing. You know. There was a 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.240 lot of associations of class with accent. But that's where 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.280 Linda came from. Was she was a nurse, so she 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.480 was a she was a tech in my mom's office. 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.880 There was this amazing New York Times article about you 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:47.680 from a while ago that sort of followed you as 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.600 you approached people on the street. I guess part of 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.120 what I'm interested in is like, what is it to 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.880 approach strangers, like what is that muscle in a way 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.280 that isn't disrespectful and that isn't treating them like a 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.840 subject of like a specimen. Well, and I think I 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.159 occupy in interesting space, right because I'm a woman of 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:10.879 mixed heritage black from a distance as we say, um, 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:16.160 and on the kind of racial hierarchy and the gender hierarchy. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.000 I you know, it's very different for me to approach 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:25.240 of sis white male, you know, straight dude and kind 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.159 of larnery talks and like spend time with them and 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:30.919 like whatever. Um, yeah, we'll leave Andrew out of this 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.000 for now. But going up to people on the street, 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.360 I think that, like I said, I feel a certain 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:44.440 responsibility to remember that, especially as a traditionally marginalized person. Myself, 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:49.479 my voice was usually you know, belittled, mocked, and so 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.840 I always feel like I remember, you know, listening to 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.520 a woman on the bus who hit like you know, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:02.640 you can hear the Russian Ukraine, you can hear her 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.400 voice when she's talking. What is accent and the How 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.439 does it feels to um imagine what is her life? 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.000 Not only oh this is essential, I'm going to make 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.960 funny voice to make fun some lady who maybe have 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.440 been through hell, maybe have survived unbelievable things, Maybe is 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.879 genius in her home country, but here she comes, she 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.359 doesn't have what she's needing. How do you make sure 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.040 your your honor this person. You'll give to them what 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.200 they deserve like human beings. So that's my I always 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:43.159 really try to imagine the internal life of the person. 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.880 And then I'm not gonna get spot on every time. 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.480 But I have been observing a lot of people for 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.000 a long time. I lived in New York. I lived 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.719 in Queen's most diverse borrow in the world, and uh, 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.920 I had access to a lot of different people because 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:58.639 of my family and I went to the U N School, 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.119 So I started to get a set of like this 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.080 is a person I can approach. This is a person 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:04.879 I should leave alone. I was having a moment and 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:06.560 it's none of my business to sneak up on them. 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.680 I always when you see a photographer, and I hate 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.480 to say it, but like, you know, a nice white 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.480 hipster getting in the face of like some brown person 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.320 in Williamsburg when I left New York. That's what was 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.879 going on, Like I'm going to take pictures and be gritty, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.480 and it's like, no, dude, that's actually your white privilege, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.240 you know, and your lack of understanding that that person 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:30.080 doesn't belong to you, even if your intentions are good. Um. 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.000 So I think there's that right, like ownership of narratives. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.359 And I think it's subversive for a black woman to 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:41.000 write for a wealthy white frat dude. That's why I 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:46.600 enjoy doing it. Yes, indeed, um, and you use do 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.439 you use voice memos and actually record them or? I 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.680 mean voice memos are basically how I get by. So 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:54.760 when I heard that I would need to have some 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.800 voice memo work to join you here today, I was like, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.800 oh home, it's home of so many and I try 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:07.280 out new Oh you'll be the I have started to 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.160 work on it a little bit. Is very new and 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.480 not at all where I would like it to be. 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:20.040 But I started to think about in Nigeria or what 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.199 would it be if I wanted to just work on 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.960 that and work on that a little bit during this pandemic. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.320 So it's starting to be fun. I'm starting to have 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:35.040 a good time with it. But yeah, you know, I 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:39.800 like voice memos. Give me that pure opportunity to feel 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.320 into something and then try it out and let it 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.359 be hairy and ugly and have words um and not 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.040 be where I'd like it to be yet. Or I 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:51.000 could just share that with your entire audience on the 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.359 theme of letting perfection go exactly and also honestly letting 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.800 us into the process, because that's you know, it's not 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.800 like you're a magician and if you give away the 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:04.000 there is no trick anymore. It's still magical at the end. 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:05.960 Don't worry. Well, that's funny that you say that, But 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.280 that was a huge fear of mine. I would never 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.800 I mean until so my grant, my my mom, my 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:17.080 mom's mom was Irish American and German American. But I 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:19.120 went to Ireland. I spent a lot of time there, 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.240 I spoke to loads of different people. There's so many 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.679 different accents, and I thought, I've got to have a 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.280 perfect It can't be like you can't think, oh, you know, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.439 did you start off in kind of County Cork and 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.000 then migrate down to Dublin. But she can't tell what 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.960 I was so obsessive, what schools would she have gone to? 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.879 And what was the slang of the time, And it 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:42.760 was just it's it's spilled over out of the respect 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.800 for the character and into perfectionism, which is a subtle 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.320 form of self abuse really and abuse of the art. 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.600 So I I am mindful of that now that I 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:57.119 don't have to present a perfect I can't. There's no 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.399 such thing as perfection. I will never be perfect. I 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.240 will have X. That was such a fear. Was like 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:04.679 what I do is so important to me and I 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.560 believe in it so much that I wanted to be perfect. 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.080 But then it's spilled over into kind of you know, 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.480 what do they say the three peace, perfectionism, procrastination, and paralysis. 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.400 That's what started to happen to me as a creative 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.359 person until I got some help around it. That's really real, 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.719 that's really real. That's real I'm starting a new project 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.960 right now, and I could stand to be reminded that 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:30.520 those three peas are not not a path that is 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.000 going to serve me, but you. But you're forgiven for 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.119 you know, I mean, we're all human and we're raised 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.240 in a culture. I mean, especially in Cancel culture. Right. 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:44.080 It's like if I I mean, I don't want look, 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:49.199 there is a great extent to which there is a 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.080 reason for me one thing to I want to be excellent. 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:58.119 I want to bring the truth and the love of 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:03.000 this person, for example, at d who is based very loosely, 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:08.000 loosely on the Palestinian women that I met, who is 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:14.679 Jordanie and wanting to again what is her story? Not 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.920 to judge, not to decide before that, if I get 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.399 caught in my own head, then it is not about 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.600 her anyway. It is about me. And what do you 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.719 think of Sarah John's not what do you think of Hella? 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.119 What do you think of this you know person? So 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:35.840 I think like in a way, whatever you're working on, 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:41.520 if you remind yourself that you are it's I don't 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:43.320 want to say servant, but that's why I do. I 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:46.280 think of myself as a public servant. Or I work 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.000 in service of whatever it is that I think is 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:50.640 important enough that I need to put it out into 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:54.159 the world. And then I'm not allowed to say, oh, 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.680 but I'm not perfected up. I have to just suck 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:58.840 it up and be a worker, and you know, do 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.280 what the project asks you to do. So I'm excited 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.320 for whatever you're working on. Let it dictate. You don't 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.240 have to do anything except show up and be you. Yeah, 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:14.000 that's that's beautiful and really hard to do. Um, thank you, Sarah. 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:24.399 We'll be back in a moment, and we're back with 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:29.160 Sarah Jones. Okay, So when your characters are on stage 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:33.480 aware of the audience, Yeah, something happens to them. It's 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.560 not just them in their natural state. It's them finding 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:40.280 themselves in a public arena, and it feels like it's 0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:42.200 a metaphor for all of us. How do you think 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:46.480 about that side of it? You know, it's really um. 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:50.040 It depends on the stage, it depends on the context. 0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:54.359 And I find that they each have their own reaction 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.720 and their own internal conflict, which can frustrate me by 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.680 the way I want them to articulate and project. If 0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:05.959 I'm you know, at an outdoor venue in India with 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:10.159 five thousand people. That's not the best time for you know, 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:13.520 I don't know Rashid to suddenly start, yeah, you know, 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:17.760 saying we in India and Yo, this is crazy right now. 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:19.160 I don't want him to. I want him to sound 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.119 better than that. But he's gonna say and experience what 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:27.320 he's experiencing. Um I remembering. You know, there's a character 0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:31.680 Pauline Ling. Pauline is not her actual name, but that's 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.080 the name that she wanted me to eat use for her. 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:37.640 And she had to be on stage in front of people, 0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:39.600 and she was very aware of it, and it's it 0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:41.960 was always a meta thing because there's the there's the 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:46.280 stage in the Broadway House, and then there's who she's 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.119 really talking to, which is a small cafe audience in 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:54.359 her mind. And she taught she is, uh, there's people, 0:25:55.160 --> 0:26:01.320 don't she does not want people to misunderstand to be 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:06.960 a immigrants from China, but also uh to come through 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:13.119 Hong Kong. This is a very difficult uh time in 0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:16.680 her life that she had to explain that to strange 0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:22.359 people and uh, this is so difficult, like maybe, um, 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:26.200 you don't want to say it can be shameful, uh 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:29.960 to talk about yourself in front of people, But that's 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:34.159 what she had to do for her daughter. The story 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:37.840 in the play was that her daughter is coming out 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.000 UM and at the time didn't have the right to 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:46.440 get married to her partner who was Chinese born and 0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:51.399 needed the immigration status that she couldn't get at that 0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:54.719 time because of homophobia. I couldn't get married. And so 0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.679 for Mrs Ling to have to come out as like 0:26:57.680 --> 0:27:01.879 a p flag parent, you know, and just just to 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:05.240 speak that feeling of and I will just be honest, 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.560 I know that she always felt like these idiots. Sorry, 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:10.920 I just need to say in her mind. I could 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.520 feel her saying, I speak two languages. They don't know 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.000 how hard it is for me to have to speak 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:21.119 right now in front of them, knowing my English is imperfect, 0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:23.960 and that they might be so ignorant they don't even 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:28.400 realize I am actually the badass here. And I remember 0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:30.840 that feeling for her. I remember my I would just 0:27:30.920 --> 0:27:34.920 get a little a little mix of anger, UM would 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:38.200 come in. But and I remember that feeling of if 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.639 your mission is vital enough to you, you will tolerate 0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:45.200 the discomfort of standing in front of a crowd and 0:27:45.240 --> 0:27:47.280 saying what you need to say. Speak even if your 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:49.880 voice shakes, Speak even if you feel like your audience 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:53.280 isn't the most friendly. I remember that. That's what comes 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:55.080 up for me with the characters. Each of them has 0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.760 their own experience of reluctance or but there's a motivation 0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:03.320 that's stronger than their fear of being perceived as less 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:06.679 intelligent because they're an immigrant and they speak halting, you know, 0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:09.399 English as a second language. That's the thing, that's the thing, 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:12.199 and that's the thing for everybody, I mean for everybody 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.439 who's listening, and for all of us. You know, obviously 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:18.480 there is fear that comes from public speaking because we're 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:22.399 being seen. And yet if our need is bigger than 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:24.560 our fear, and so how do we invest in what 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:26.600 that need is? If we if you know, if we 0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.800 have to public speak for our job, for our livelihood, 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:32.280 for or whatever, how do we find the way to 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:34.240 make it something we want to do or we need 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:36.840 to do so hard that we overcome the fear side 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:41.240 of it. You know, what helps me remembering back to childhood, 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.120 who I was as a child before all of the 0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:50.640 kind of messaging about um you know, image, image management, 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.120 how you have to sound. I mean I had so 0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:55.600 many messages had relatives or sound like that, and I 0:28:55.640 --> 0:28:57.240 was like, oh, I'm supposed to sound like that too. 0:28:57.320 --> 0:28:59.040 I had to be from the West Indies and I 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:00.880 have to be like this a week cool. And then 0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:04.520 I got to Washington, d c uh. My parents moved 0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:07.440 around because they were students, medical students and all of 0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:10.600 that when I was really little, and so I remember 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:13.760 arriving at the black school and all of everything I 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.360 thought was cool was terrible. You know. I was like 0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:18.960 they were like, they were like, he's not like a 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:20.520 white girl. You know I could. I don't know. I 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:22.360 had just so many different ways of talking to all 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:25.560 my different relatives, and um, I had to learn how 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:28.560 to you know, I had to learn something else Sarah Jones. 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:30.680 You know, I had to learn how to say my 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:34.080 name told just a different way, and I had to 0:29:34.160 --> 0:29:36.120 learn how to fake. You know. People would be like, yeah, 0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:37.880 I was in church. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, me too. 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:41.760 You know. It was like I wanted to see mechanism. 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:44.600 This is the coping mechanism. I don't know. I may 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:46.760 have an a d h D diagnosis. I haven't find 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:48.080 it found out yet. I think it might be part 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:50.760 of so I don't know if I want you to 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:55.360 medicate it. I you know, I haven't ever done the meds, 0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:57.920 which is so I mean, I think my characters are 0:29:57.960 --> 0:29:59.960 my meds. Which is not to say that I don't 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.560 need additional man's but this reminds me. I have a 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.080 quote I want to read of yours. You said, Um, 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:07.000 I have to get sleep. I have to sleep for 0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:10.400 twenty people. I feel responsible for these people, so I 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:12.960 have to treat them well and exercise well. I meditate 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:14.840 and go to therapy twice a week if I can, 0:30:14.920 --> 0:30:16.840 because it's a lot. And this is the part I 0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:21.280 want to highlight. To feel I'm feeling people's experiences every 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:24.400 time I do the show, and surely more than just 0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:27.760 every time you do the show. I remember when the 0:30:27.880 --> 0:30:31.280 stages started getting bigger, like Broadway is. You know, it's 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:34.160 still six hundred people a night and you do it 0:30:34.200 --> 0:30:36.840 every night, and it's a very specific discipline. I was 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:40.800 like a monk, you know. It really was um like 0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:45.120 this uh you know, committed relationship that I had with 0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:49.200 these characters. It was like, all right, I you know, 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:53.880 what is it? I don't know, do you solemnly whatever 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:56.560 I swear, remember my wedding vows? Yeah, do you solemnly swear? 0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:59.440 Do you do you? Sarah? Take these characters to be 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:03.360 your you know, do you do you characters? Take Sarah 0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:07.440 to be your emissary, to be your vessel um until 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.680 you know ticket sales, do us part or whatever? And 0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:14.280 it just ran and ran, and I remember the feeling 0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:19.400 of if I don't remember to tap into the resource 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:24.120 of the characters. They are pure love, They're messy, they're imperfect. 0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:26.520 I have a white supremacist who won't admit he's a 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:31.560 white Suparcy's um. I'm a European American rights advocate and 0:31:32.400 --> 0:31:36.200 that should not make anyone laugh or or or a 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.480 raising eyebrow anymore than all of the rest of you 0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:44.800 women and whatever the other you know, black or I 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:46.840 don't know if you can stay black anymore. Whatever you're 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:50.960 supposed to say about them. They can have their uh 0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:54.720 advocate groups and we can and I don't see, you know, 0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:56.640 Sarah Jones can make fun of me all the time 0:31:56.680 --> 0:31:58.920 and call me all kind of names, But I know 0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:00.560 that I want to be able to be proud to 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:03.720 be European, so I have to carry that dude around 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:09.520 with me, and I take very seriously his drudge report reading, 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:14.680 you know, Fox News believing version of America because it's 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:17.520 the only one he has. He is doing his best 0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:21.080 with what he has. He is, you know, behaving as 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:25.600 I would if I were born into his body, into 0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:28.880 you know, the bassinet in his house. And then remember 0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:32.080 that there's beauty. He has beauty. Like I've been I 0:32:32.160 --> 0:32:35.040 have been moved to tears by the moment of his 0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.600 courage in admitting how much of a failure he he 0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:43.760 feels himself to be because his son is not making 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:45.600 more money than he did in every general I mean, 0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:48.680 like I've you know, I've done interviews where somebody interviews 0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:51.200 him or he's interviewing somebody, and the improv that comes 0:32:51.240 --> 0:32:53.520 out is like, oh, this is the pain of the 0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:57.720 white American male, you know in Middle America that I 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:00.560 am not going to privilege right over the pain of 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:03.000 people of color and you know, working class people in 0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:06.200 immigrants who have suffered long and hard under racism and 0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:08.120 all the rest of it. But it gets a place. 0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:11.440 But he gets a place. He gets a place, and 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:15.280 that is work for me. I don't love having to 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:19.400 engage that conversation. And yet I mean, I think that 0:33:19.440 --> 0:33:23.160 he that all of the characters fortify me if I 0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:25.480 let them, and I have to do the work to 0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:28.960 make sure I'm available to receive the gift of like 0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:32.040 communing with other people within my own body and my 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:34.760 own voice. Well, and this feels like it taps into 0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:37.720 your you know, we were talking about the characters urged 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:42.560 to speak as greater than their fear, but also yours, yes, greater, 0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:46.240 but not without a mess sometimes, and I think the 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:50.520 willingness to play in the spaces where it is not 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:54.080 neat and tidy. I haven't figured it out. I am 0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:58.880 not cancel culture proof. Um, you know, yeah, tell me 0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:02.200 about that. What responses have you gotten that have really 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:08.680 challenged you? You know what's interesting? I remember performing for 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.680 I mean, I did you know Ted Talks. I think 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:14.400 it's important to say that the bigger the platform, the 0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:18.920 bigger the sense of responsibility and whoever that audience is. 0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:22.760 I noticed self I would do some self policing around 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:26.439 who I brought out and when, and you know that 0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:30.120 I had to really look at like making a choice 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.560 I went. I remember getting to perform at the White House. 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:36.200 It was such a it was so otherworldly to like 0:34:36.400 --> 0:34:38.960 have these black people in the White House. This was 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:40.880 like two thousand nine the first time I went, I 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:43.399 got to perform there. Bring us back anything you want 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:44.759 to tell us about that. We just want to live 0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:46.960 there for a sec I know, right, Can we just 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:49.880 go back to I guess that was the last performance 0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:52.960 I did there or twenty something like that. That feeling 0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:58.360 of a democratized White House, I didn't know how to bring. 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:01.800 I have a lady. I had somebody name miss Lady. 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:05.120 She lived on the street, and she have you know 0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:08.880 what happened in this country when you are female and 0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:11.319 you black, and you Paul and you don't have no 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:16.080 access to the same education opportunity or job opportunity or 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:20.000 whatever like some other people got. Some people don't want 0:35:20.000 --> 0:35:22.360 to hear you speak and talk. They don't want to 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.319 hear you. They think you sound ignorant or whatever. But 0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:27.920 I want to tell them I don't need fancy words 0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:32.040 to be uh important person. But Saide don't didn't want 0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:33.680 to bring me up in the White House because she 0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:38.200 wants to be dignified with the Obama I am dignified. 0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:41.399 I may don't have no place where I could lay 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:43.200 my head at night. But that don't mean I'm not 0:35:43.360 --> 0:35:48.440 no dignified person, you understand. So I noticed my own fear. 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:54.080 UH would sometimes mirror or not mirror. I guess what 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:58.840 I'll say is I remember performing a whole slew of characters, 0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:02.600 different races, for ethnicities, different genders. This was at a 0:36:02.719 --> 0:36:05.200 medical I was like at a medical school or something. 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:07.960 I did a show about health and ethnic and racial 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:12.000 health disparities back when people were saying they didn't exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:16.760 I came across that in your research and was like, well, hello, coronavirus. Oh, coronavirus. 0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:19.840 So anyway, back then, I was doing this piece and 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:22.920 I still do it from time to time because medicine 0:36:22.960 --> 0:36:25.520 is racist. I grew up in medicine and my father 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:28.080 being assumed to be in orderly because he's a black man, 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:29.840 even though he was the doctor and the head of 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:36.160 the department. So UM, this moment of UH performing in 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.319 front of a mixed race audience where there had been 0:36:38.400 --> 0:36:41.040 some conflict and they had sort of invited me, I 0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:43.560 felt like a you know, like a diplomat or something 0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.399 coming to try to be like okay, everybody. But this 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:49.040 one white woman stood up and said and her voice 0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:50.960 was shaking, and I had created a safe space and 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:53.360 I'm very proud of myself for that. I said, I 0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:57.160 let everybody know. Look, this is racist, messy, tricky stuff. 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:00.320 And she said, well, all of them were good people 0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:02.759 except for the one who looked like me. And I 0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:07.480 was like, wow, I couldn't even unpack. And I said, well, 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:10.360 wait a minute, which one looked like you? Because I 0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:13.040 I've looked like this the whole time. I'm still I 0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:17.719 never changed color. And she I felt her experiencing the 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:21.320 reality that she had. Her mind told her I was white. 0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:23.560 Her mind told her I was white when I was 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:26.880 doing the character that offended her, and she said the 0:37:26.920 --> 0:37:28.560 white one And I said, well, I did a few 0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:32.319 white characters. And she didn't identify Lorraine, who's Jewish, as 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:35.160 white like It was such a telling moment, right who 0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:39.400 this woman latched onto as the mirror of herself. And 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:44.200 all the white nurse said was I don't see color. 0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:47.680 And you know, why do I have to be culturally competent? 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:50.600 Why don't they learn to speak English, which is something 0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:53.400 that a lot of people say and believe, including in 0:37:53.400 --> 0:37:56.080 the medical field. So it was fascinating to watch this 0:37:56.160 --> 0:38:00.200 woman suffer. She was in so much pain, confronted with 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:04.719 racism and confronted with you know, white supremacy and her 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.520 you know, possible complicity in it. So I mentioned that 0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:11.000 because that was painful. I like to have a good time. 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:13.160 I like to get a standing oh where everybody's laughing 0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:15.360 and rolling in the aisles and having a wonderful experience 0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:18.000 with me and goes home feeling warm and fuzzy about me. 0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:20.319 And I don't think that woman felt super warm and 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:24.600 fuzzy in that moment, but it was teachable moment for 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:27.520 everybody in that room. Well, and also, what's your I mean, 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:32.040 this is a bigger question, but what is your goal? Yeah? 0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:34.440 I mean I just told you what I like. You know, 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:38.240 I like to feel delicious and for millions of people 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:39.880 to watch my TED talks and tell me how much 0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:43.560 they love me. What I don't shy away from, and 0:38:43.600 --> 0:38:45.920 what I know is more important, is that people have 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:49.799 an experience that holds a mirror up to them. In 0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:53.279 which case, boy, did you fulfill your goal? I did, 0:38:53.320 --> 0:38:55.719 and I didn't go home. You know, that wasn't a 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:57.719 day when I got to feel like I you know, 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:00.440 created a rollicking good time. For everyone in the audience. 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:02.560 It was more like and in fact, I remember there 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:06.160 was a meet and greet afterward and doctors, you know, white, 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:11.680 very straight laced, very straight. Yeah, I was I was trying. 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:12.920 I was trying to soften that a little bit, like 0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:17.719 very very straight, um, like super white, that dude, you know, 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:21.359 that guy from like wherever we were, Michigan. I say 0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:23.680 this like a super straight white guy, Like I don't 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:26.880 know what the I don't know what right. This is 0:39:26.920 --> 0:39:29.839 the superest and the straightest, okay, and the guy st 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:33.839 And these are the men who are, you know, at 0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:38.200 kind of the center of white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy in 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:40.400 our country. They are part of what I think of 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:43.680 as the medical industrial complex that is profit driven and 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.760 creates terrible problems for doctors, including right now in COVID 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:49.440 they're slashing doctors salaries. And I know it's like, oh 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:52.239 bo who doctors Listen. I watched my parents. I saw 0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:55.719 what the insurance companies, the lobbyists, all of that, what it, 0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:58.960 you know, does to our health as a society, including 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:03.160 destroying the lives of the medical professionals we need. But um, 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:06.880 I digress. These men, these white men, came up to me. 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:08.640 I swear to you a couple of them had tears 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:11.239 in their eyes, saying, I don't know how to talk 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:13.000 about this stuff. I don't know how to talk about 0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:16.600 it with my staff. Um, I you seem nice, but 0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:19.080 I don't you know, I have black friends or I 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:21.279 don't have black like I felt like Oprah. I felt 0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:24.040 like a fucking therapist or something who was like the 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:27.560 maybe the one time anybody had ever said, hey, white man, 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:30.520 you know, maybe you're gonna wait until after the Q 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:32.200 and A because you don't want to publicly say this. 0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:34.839 But people who after a couple of cocktails were able 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:38.560 to come up to me and say effectively, this feels messy, 0:40:38.719 --> 0:40:40.799 this feels problematic. I don't want to feel like I'm 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:44.600 complicit in any of it, but you touch something that's 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:46.719 my work, that's my job, and it's not the Rara. 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:49.160 It's not it doesn't get me a million followers on 0:40:49.200 --> 0:40:51.920 the Graham. It's very different work well. And also it's 0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:54.000 funny because it actually ties into our are sort of 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:57.760 like off handed conversation at the top about expectations because 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:02.719 you're like the whole your whole job is making people 0:41:02.840 --> 0:41:06.600 question what their expectations are for you and also for 0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:11.960 every character you bring up there, and then also for themselves. Yeah, 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:15.480 I didn't pick the easiest job. Apparently I should have 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:18.319 picked president of the United States because you, I mean, 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:20.640 any day now, I'm happy to vote for you. I'm 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:25.239 happy to for you. M Yeah. Well, and also I 0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:28.640 I wonder if it sounds sort of like it picked you, 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:32.759 it did choose me. And I do have a kind 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:36.000 of cultural a d H D probably in the sense 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:39.360 that I want to talk about immigrants and the prison 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:44.359 industrial complex, and you know, discrimination and healthcare and our 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.840 education system and capitalism and where we are as a 0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:51.319 society economically. I want to talk about all of those 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:53.919 things at the same time. Also, you know, I don't 0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:55.719 want I don't want for my audience you to leave 0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:59.000 out cell by date, right. And the shirt I'm wearing, 0:41:59.000 --> 0:42:02.520 which says eroticide equality is a you know, it's a 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:05.960 reference to actually glorious it's a glorious Synum quote. And 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:09.719 it's a reference to where we are with feminism and 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:14.440 power and sex and how we self identify and self 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:17.600 invent as women. And we I still know that when 0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:20.040 I walk into a room filled with the white guys 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:23.959 who still by and large run Hollywood and decide whether 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:26.319 I get movie roles or TV roles or you know, 0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:29.080 a show on the air. Um, I promise you every 0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:32.040 single project I have ever done, a white man is 0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:34.840 right there deciding whether it gets funded or not, period, 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:37.839 a white straight man. And to be clear about that 0:42:37.840 --> 0:42:41.520 that even with movements, you know, some subtle movement, I 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:45.279 can count on my fingers and toes the women, the 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:48.799 people of color who have you know, the kind of 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:51.560 power to begin to shift all of this stuff. And 0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:55.080 I think we do ourselves a disservice when we're like, oh, 0:42:55.120 --> 0:42:57.919 you know, we have a hashtag now, so it's it's 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:01.000 changed or it's really changing in a meaningful way. No, 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:04.040 it isn't. It isn't yet. And I think, like getting 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:07.560 clear that there's a reason we're intersectional, right, I need 0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:10.920 to bring all of that stuff into the conversation because 0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:13.920 there is no talking about women without talking about the 0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:16.680 environment and climate change. There is no talking about poverty 0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.920 without talking about trafficking and human beings and why their 0:43:19.920 --> 0:43:22.600 bodies are sold. Um, you know what I mean. So yeah, 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:23.920 I mean when you were when you were listening the 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:25.640 sort of themes you've always been interested in. I just 0:43:25.760 --> 0:43:28.120 was thinking the entire time, like, it's just justice. It's 0:43:28.160 --> 0:43:30.719 just justice. It's just justice. Justice. Like so when I 0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:33.920 started taking my kid to marches, which was like, you know, 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:38.440 sadly early in his life in the world, we are 0:43:38.480 --> 0:43:41.280 not sadly but sadly that they don't needed. But you know, obviously, 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.319 um what when he was old enough to sort of 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:47.400 slightly start to ask questions, I just no matter what 0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:49.640 we were there for specifically. I mean, the first one 0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:51.759 where I remember he was actually conscious was the March 0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:53.040 for Our Lives and I was not going to tell 0:43:53.120 --> 0:43:58.160 him that it was about, you know, gun violence against children, 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:01.640 and so I said, we're marching for fairness, and every 0:44:01.719 --> 0:44:06.120 single one of them were marching for fairness. Fairness really honestly, 0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:09.160 like it helps me a lot to think of this 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:12.440 in terms of humanity, Like when people are you and 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:14.840 I'll say social justice, and I'll say I'm an activist, 0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:18.200 and I'll say I'm a progressive to radical, I'm a 0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:23.399 fucking human being. Yes, yes, okay, we'll be right back 0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:25.680 after this and we will find out who you brought 0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:35.239 in for us to listen to. We're about to be 0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:39.279 back for act three. Just a note, Sarah's audio did 0:44:39.440 --> 0:44:42.400 not work for the final act, but we've got her 0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:47.680 zoom backup sound. So UM, if you don't want to 0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:53.600 listen because you are an audio purist, um bye. But otherwise, UM, 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.680 I think this actually worked out okay. The technology UM 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:01.680 supported us, saved us and and UM I loved this 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.000 act so I didn't want to cut it. Here, you 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:05.920 guys go, we're back and we're going to find out 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:07.399 who you brought in for us? You would you would 0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:10.759 you first just tell us? So I'm very excited about this. 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:15.279 Sonya Renee Taylor is a woman I've actually never met 0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:19.440 in person, but she has that kind of reach kind 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:24.360 of into your soul and I think, uh, maybe ironically 0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:26.920 is not the word, but ironically it's through the body. 0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:29.759 It's she has a book, The Body is not an 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:37.760 apology that makes an incredibly nuanced and loving argument that 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:41.480 when we, as I think so many of us do 0:45:41.520 --> 0:45:45.160 in our culture, make our bodies, you know, kind of 0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:47.920 the site of where we fight our battle, and you know, 0:45:47.920 --> 0:45:51.640 how do I look and controlling our bodies and um, 0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:55.120 wanting to occupy a certain space in the culture, we 0:45:55.239 --> 0:46:01.320 actually cut off our soul um. Yeah, I'm going to 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:03.319 link to her book as well. And I also just 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:05.640 want to say, as somebody who's who's like on the 0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:08.320 voice soapbox, that you know, voice doesn't exist except with 0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:12.120 our bodies. And whenever somebody has something that's going on 0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:13.719 with their voice that makes them feel like they're not 0:46:13.760 --> 0:46:15.680 being heard or that it's not coming out, or that 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:17.640 they're not revealing their true selves when they want to be, 0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:21.120 it has to do with their bodies. Yes, I agree 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:25.000 with that. Okay, here she is. Every time you call 0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:30.080 truth with your body, you interrupt a system of violence 0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:35.280 and power that profits off of your self hate. Every 0:46:35.320 --> 0:46:39.560 time you interrogate the beliefs and biases that you have 0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:43.839 about other bodies, you interrupt a system the profits off 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.400 of the way that you feel about other bodies and 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:51.120 the systems of comparison that we live in. Our relationship 0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:53.960 with our bodies is our access to a more just 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:59.040 and equitable world. Our relationship with other people's bodies is 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:03.440 how we've been the box towards justice. When I watched 0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:07.680 her ted talk, which that's from I was struck by. 0:47:07.800 --> 0:47:10.799 I mean, of course, part of the the job of 0:47:10.840 --> 0:47:15.319 being somebody who's whole, you know, being is to say 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:17.400 that the body isn't. An apology is how do you 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:19.359 show up on stage? You know, how do you show 0:47:19.400 --> 0:47:22.719 up with your body? And one of the answers is 0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:27.240 that I haven't seen an actor doing Shakespeare in a while, 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:31.520 and that's you know, like, that's what she's doing. And 0:47:31.520 --> 0:47:34.879 there's a later part in that same um talk where 0:47:34.920 --> 0:47:38.760 she switches into a poetry mode where she's actually, um, 0:47:38.800 --> 0:47:40.200 I don't know what the verb is. I was going 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:44.600 to say reciting, and that's so wrong. Embodying embodying, yeah, 0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:47.439 doing poetry. But you can even hear it in that 0:47:47.520 --> 0:47:51.640 clip that there's there's a way that she uses her 0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:54.600 body in connection with her voice that just feels like 0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:58.600 she's under herself. She's not beside herself, she's not next 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:00.480 to you, she's not running after she is in it. 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:03.600 She embodies the poem, right, she is the embodiment of 0:48:03.640 --> 0:48:08.000 the poll where she it's almost like she offers her 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:12.080 body in service of the community. So it's sort of yeah, 0:48:12.120 --> 0:48:15.480 it's a bit of the vessel imagery or emissary. Yeah, 0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:18.719 that's right. I mean it's not the same style as 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:22.319 a conversational style. And you know, I've I listen to 0:48:22.320 --> 0:48:24.040 some clips of her and conversation too, and it's kind 0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:26.040 of cool to to see, you know. Obviously, she's a 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:29.319 great reminder that all of us have different modes, you know, 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:31.600 And I'm not saying that that one mode is one 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:33.840 that you know, any of us should sort of steal, 0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:36.640 period or steal for the wrong mode or take the 0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:39.880 wrong lessons from. But to see somebody knowing that what 0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:43.319 they're talking about is big, and that they're taking the 0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:48.359 breath to support that big of a thought and thus 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:50.640 teaching us that that thought is as big as it 0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:55.400 is is a real lesson. So thank you for bringing 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:58.719 her in. Thank you for talking to me, Sarah and 0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:03.759 all of the people they wrote with you. Um, you're 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.279 a wonder. Thank you so much for letting me just 0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:11.520 meander all over the places to be here. Thank you. 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:17.319 Thank you to Sarah Jones for joining me. You can 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:19.400 find out more about her in the show notes or 0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:22.800 on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com. There's 0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:25.839 also a super cool bit of bonus content this week 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:28.399 on our Instagram feed at Permission to Speak Pod, where 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:32.520 Sarah talks about the secret of playing cool when you 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:38.280 meet your heroes. It's really really special and real. Um. 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:40.920 Please also send me d M s or voice memos 0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:43.400 to at Permissions beat Pot on Instagram or the website 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:45.720 and let me know what is going on with your voice. 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:48.799 I would be thrilled to answer to the next mail 0:49:48.840 --> 0:49:51.479 bag episode. Also tell me what kind of guests you'd 0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:53.040 like me to have on and also what kind of 0:49:53.120 --> 0:49:56.960 questions you would like me to ask upcoming guests. I 0:49:57.040 --> 0:50:01.040 am so truly here for you, I especially I feel 0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:04.680 like during these wild and rather unsettling times, if we 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:09.600 can think really intentionally about how our communication allows us 0:50:09.640 --> 0:50:11.640 to be more vulnerable and more heart forward with the 0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:14.840 people in our lives, that is something we should be doing. 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:18.440 And even more than any of that, I would so 0:50:18.560 --> 0:50:21.680 love for you to just tell me what you need 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:25.399 from me. If I can provide it, I will thank 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:27.400 you as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:30.880 I Heeart Radio, my family and cohort and all of you. 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:35.480 We're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:37.680 on land that is the historic gathering place for the 0:50:37.680 --> 0:50:40.600 Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us D A 0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:44.040 C dot us to learn more about honoring Native land. 0:50:45.920 --> 0:50:48.320 Permission to Speak is a production of I Heart Radio 0:50:48.360 --> 0:50:51.719 and Double Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burke Canton and 0:50:51.760 --> 0:50:54.840 Mark Canton. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, listen 0:50:55.040 --> 0:50:58.200 on the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:50:58.320 --> 0:51:08.600 you get your favorite shows.