WEBVTT - The Statue 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:05.800 History Versus is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:11.959 Mental Flaws. One thing that happens when you make a 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.120 Theodore Roosevelt themed podcast is that whenever there's tr related news, 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.239 you get a ton of messages about it, which is 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.599 exactly what happened to me when news broke that the 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.560 American Museum of Natural History had asked for the equestrian 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.280 statue of tr that stands outside at Central Park West 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.160 Entrance to be removed. The request comes at a time 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.600 when hundreds of thousands of people are taking to the 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:38.800 streets to protest police brutality and systemic racism. Statues of 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.559 historical figures, including those of the Confederacy, and monuments dedicated 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:47.120 to figures who owned or sold enslaved people, are being defaced, removed, 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.280 or pulled down entirely, and not just here in the States, 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.440 but all around the world as well. Although the museum's 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.040 request to remove the statue, which features Tr on horseback 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.800 flanked on the ground by one Native American and one 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.960 for a configure, was made in light of the current movement, 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.520 this particular statue of tr has been controversial for a 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:11.480 very long time. In nineteen seventy one, activist dumped a 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.959 can of red paint on Roosevelt's head, in what a 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.120 paper at that time called the latest incident against the 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:22.440 Roosevelt statue. Former New York City Parks Commissioner Gordon Davis 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.800 said he would support the statue being blasted away from 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.080 where it stood unless he noted, Roosevelt got off and 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.560 walked with them. Beginning in two sixteen, activists have protested 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.919 the statue by organizing marches, covering it with a parachute 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:40.000 and splashing red paint on the base. Removing the statue 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.600 was considered as recently as the Mayoral Advisory Commission on 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.160 City Art, Monuments and Markers, which was, according to a 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:52.400 report issued in January, committed to a process of historical 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.840 reckoning a nuanced understanding of the complicated histories we have inherited, 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.080 was split about what to do with the statue. Ultimately, 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.240 the city decided to keep the statue where it was 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.000 and asked the museum to add context to the work, 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.640 which the museum did in its exhibit addressing the statue. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.480 We touched briefly on the statue and on the exhibit 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.120 in a larger discussion of Roosevelt's views on race in 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.160 the episode History Versus t R. Why was the city 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.239 involved in the decision? You ask, because even though many 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.960 associate the statue directly with the museum thanks to its location, 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.440 Roosevelt's own history with the institution, and things like The 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.320 Night of the Museum movies, it's actually part of a 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:38.040 public memorial to Roosevelt located on public land. While some 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.120 have issues with the statue because of Roosevelt himself, the 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.520 museum has said that its request to move it isn't 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.080 about Roosevelt, but rather because of the statue's composition and 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.359 what it implies. So in this bonus episode of History Versus, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.880 we're going to talk about the statue, why it's there, 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.160 what the artists intended, and why it's viewed as controversial today, 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:08.920 and we'll dive in Roosevelt's own views on legacy. The 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.239 statute story begins in nine when the New York State 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.280 Legislature established the Roosevelt Memorial Commission. Nine years later, construction 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.320 began on a memorial within the museum that, according to 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.000 the prospectus of the competition, should express Roosevelt's life as 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.720 a nature lover, naturalist, explorer, an author of works on 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.239 natural history, The memorial may have ended up at a 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.400 m n H because of Henry Fairfield Osbourne, who was 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.520 then both president of the museum and the head of 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.120 the New York State Roosevelt Memorial Commission. Osborne had also 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.760 known Roosevelt, who contributed specimens to the museum and whose 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.920 father was one of the founding members personally. The memorial 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.160 was designed by architect John Russell Pope and included the 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.200 museum's central park, West entrance, it's Theodore Roosevelt Rotunda, and 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.960 the Theatore Roosevelt Memorial Hall. In the equestrian statue of 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.240 Theodore Roosevelt was commissioned to become a part of that 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.640 larger memorial. In Pope wrote that the statue would sit 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.080 on a granite pedestal bearing in equestrian statue of Roosevelt, 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.560 with two accompanying figures on foot, one representing the American 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.960 Indian and the other the primitive African. This heroic group 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:22.440 will symbolize the fearless leadership the explorer, benefactor and educator 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.240 sculptor James Earl Fraser, who had created, among other things, 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.960 a bust of Roosevelt, a statue of Ben Franklin, and 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.520 the Buffalo. Nickel was chosen to create the sculpture, which 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.000 was based on a statue by Andrea del Vericio. The 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.760 statue was completed in ninety nine and unveiled in nineteen forty. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.240 Fraser said that the figures beside the former president are 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:48.520 guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.880 you choose, may stand for Roosevelt's friendliness to all races. 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.960 The figures have no names and are below and trail 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:03.279 behind Roosevelt. So we've talked about what the artists intended 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.080 when they created the statue. Now let's talk about how 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.920 the statue is viewed today. Because a white man is 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.320 ahead of an above, an Indigenous American person, and an 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:18.720 African person, many see a clear picture of racial hierarchy 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:24.600 and white supremacy. Others see a monument to colonialism and conquest. 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.480 Not only that, but the unnamed figure seemed to be 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:33.360 a hodgepodge of stereotypes and poor research. The Native American 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.840 figure appears to be a Plains Indian, but it's a 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:40.400 generic and stereotypical rendering. According to the museum's exhibit about 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.400 the statue, the shield on the African figure appears to 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.240 be based on the Massai people, whom Roosevelt met during 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.520 his time in East Africa, but the museum explains that 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.919 the hairstyle and facial scarification on the figure do not 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:57.039 accurately reflect Massid traditions, and the cloth draped around the 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.760 body is more akin to a Greek or Roman sculpture 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.360 in James Lowen wrote in his book Lies Across America 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.360 What are Historic Sites get? Wrong? That some authorities claim 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.479 the flanked figures are guides or continents, but visitors without 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:16.000 such foreknowledge internalized the monument without even thinking about it 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.160 as a declaration of white supremacy. When the statue went up, 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:25.800 the museum was openly racist. At that time, the museum 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:31.080 had strong ties to eugenics. Under Osbourne's tenure, two conferences 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.880 about eugenics were held there. Roosevelt himself also supported certain 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:40.880 aspects of eugenics, especially later in his life. Now about 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:45.559 TR's quote unquote friendliness to all races, If you listen 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.719 to the History Versus tr episode of this podcast, you'll 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.760 remember just how complicated and sometimes contradictory Tier's views on 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.039 race were. But simply put, Tr held white supremacist and 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.760 racist views that were shaped by his childhood, the books 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:06.120 he read, his education, and his correspondence with scientists. Roosevelt 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.960 developed a theory of the stages of civilization, a racial 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.560 hierarchy that put the white English speaking man on top. 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.440 According to historian William S. Walker in Controversial Monuments and Memorials, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.120 A Guide for Community Leaders, Frasier's statue is basically a 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.200 visual representation of the prevalent thinking about race at that time, 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.560 a troubling hierarchy of human groups that places whites above 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.480 indigenous peoples and other people of color on a universal 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:39.600 scale of human civilization. He writes, the statute symbolism corresponds 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.000 with overtly racist statements Roosevelt made in his writings and 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.680 actions he took, such as his wrongful condemnation and punishment 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.080 of black soldiers after the Brownsville affair in nineteen o six. Moreover, 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.160 the racial imagery of Frasier's statue matches the dominant paternalistic 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.080 attitudes that many whites, including Roosevelt, displayed toward people of 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:03.400 color in the early twentieth century. We've covered a lot 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.960 of the frankly horrible things Roosevelt said about other races 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.280 in previous episodes of the podcast. But right now I 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.160 want to look at just a few examples of what 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.480 he said about black people to show just how contradictory 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.000 is thinking could be. The first is from remarks he 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:23.400 made in February five. Our efforts should be to secure 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.600 each man, whatever his color, equality of opportunity, equality of 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.679 treatment before the law, as a people, striving to shape 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.319 our actions in accordance with the great law of righteousness. 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.360 We cannot afford to take part in or be indifferent 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.800 to the oppression or maltreatment of any man who, against 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.360 crushing disadvantages, has, by his own industry, energy, self respect, 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.840 and perseverance, struggled upward to a position which would entitle 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.440 him to the respect of his fellows, if only his 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.559 skin were of a different hue. Sounds pretty good, right, 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.760 But in nineteen oh six, Roosevelt wrote in a letter 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.960 to own Wister, the black people as a race and 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.240 as a mass are all together inferior to the whites. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.720 And in nineteen sixteen he wrote to Henry Cabot Lodge, 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.440 I believe that the great majority of Negroes in the 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.959 South are wholly unfit for the suffrage, extending them that right, 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.040 he said, could reduce parts of the South to the 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:24.560 level of Haiti. Historian Thomas Dyer breaks down trs thoughts 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.720 on a number of races in depth in his book 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.840 Theodore Roosevelt and the Idea of Race, and if you 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.840 want more information than I'll ever be able to deliver here, 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.680 you should definitely pick it up. Dire notes that while 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:41.160 Roosevelt didn't support segregation or disenfranchisement of Black Americans, and 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.440 while he championed specific black individuals like Mini cos, there's 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.120 no question that Roosevelt felt that black people as a 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.600 whole were inferior to white people, and he believed it 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:53.600 was the white man's job to help the black man 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.600 become as civilized as the white man, a process that 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:01.320 he believed would take an extremely long time. However, according 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.080 to Dire, Roosevelt shouldn't be lumped in with the deeply 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.520 racist politicians of the Deep South, but instead was associated 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.080 with a group of theorists who promoted the vision of 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:15.280 racial equipotentiality, and with those politicians who publicly deplored the 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:21.240 oppression of American Blacks yet opposed social equality dire rights. Thus, 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.840 although Roosevelt may have been a moderating force in an 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:28.079 age of high racism. He nevertheless harbored strong feelings about 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:32.000 the inferiority of blacks, feelings which suggest the pervasiveness of 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.880 racism and the harsh character of racial moderation in turn 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.000 of the century America. Though these may have been prevalent 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.280 views at the time, and while one could try and 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.920 justify Roosevelt's racist views by saying that he was a 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.560 product of his time, there were plenty of people at 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.760 that time, like Jane Adams and William English Walling, who 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.959 did not agree with these views, who were much more 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:56.960 progressive on this particular issue than Roosevelt was. We'll be 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:08.640 right back right around the time the museum's addressing the 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.400 statue exhibit went up. In July, I spoke with David 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:17.080 Hurst Thomas, Curator of North American Archaeology, Division of Anthropology 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.320 at a m n H. Here's what he had to 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.560 say about the statue and the exhibit. It was put 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.080 up by the State of New York, demoralizing a governor 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.640 who went on to become a president. And our entire 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.600 Western facade is dedicated to the career Theodore Roosevelt. And 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.959 as you walk along there you know there their sculptures, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.560 they are all sorts of things. But this standalone one 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.080 on Roosevelt on the horse with with the African and 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.240 the Native American walking along sent one message in the 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.680 nineteen thirties when it was put up, and it sends 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.280 a different message today too many people. So we're trying 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.640 to come to grips with that. What are the different 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:57.680 points of view here? What does that tell us about 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.480 where we were then and where we are now. In 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.520 the exhibit, the museum grappled with what it called Roosevelt's 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.720 troubling views on race and its own imperfect history, saying 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.800 that such an effort does not excuse the past, but 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.160 it can create a foundation for honest, respectful, open dialogue. 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.680 In a recent statement, the museum said it was proud 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.000 of the exhibition, which helped advance our and the public's 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.679 understanding of the statue and its history, and promoted dialogue 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.800 about important issues of race and cultural representation. But in 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.760 the current moment, it is abundantly clear that this approach 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.240 is not sufficient. While the statue is owned by the city, 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.400 the museum recognizes the importance of taking a position at 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.680 this time. We believe that the statue should no longer remain, 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.319 and have requested that it be moved. Theodore Roosevelt, the 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.880 fourth Tierra's great grandson and a museum trustee, supports the 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.080 statue's removal, as does New York City Mayor Billed A. Blasio, 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.719 who said in a statement that the city supports the 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.520 museum's request. It is the right decision and the right 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:04.120 time to remove this problematic statue. It hasn't yet been 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.800 decided when the statue will be removed or where it 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.400 will go, and the museum isn't completely cutting ties with 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.600 tr Instead, it will name its Hall of Biodiversity for Roosevelt, 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:20.040 in honor of his role as a leading conservationist. It's 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.840 possible that Roosevelt would have preferred this memorialization to any statue. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.360 Michael Cullinane, the historian and author of Theodore Roosevelt's Ghost, 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.280 who I interviewed for this podcast, wrote in a recent 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.520 op ed for The Washington Post that Theodore Roosevelt never 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.240 wanted a statue. Long before he died, he left strict 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.560 instructions to his wife and children that no likeness of himself, equestrian, 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.600 or otherwise appear in stone or Bronze. He even fought 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.200 a memorial group that sought to preserve his birthplace in 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.800 New York City. As a historian, Roosevelt knew that the 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:57.400 past necessarily gets rewritten. He anticipated an ever changing legacy. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.080 Clay Jenkinson, who I interviewed or several episodes, also emphasizes 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:03.720 this point in a new book of essays he co 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:08.400 edited called Theodore Roosevelt Naturalist in the Arena. He points 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.040 out that when North Dakotan's wanted to erect a statue 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.960 to tr Roosevelt suggested that a pioneer or pioneer family 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.040 would be more appropriate, and in nineteen sixteen, Roosevelt wrote 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.720 a letter against building monuments to the dead, saying, there's 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.480 an occasional great public servant to whom it is well 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.480 to raise a monument, really not for the man himself, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.960 but for what he typified, a monument to Lincoln or 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.240 Farragut is really a great symbolic statue to commemorate such 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.040 qualities as valor and patriotism, and love of mankind, and 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.960 a willingness to sacrifice everything for the right. As for 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.840 the rest of us, who with failures and shortcomings, but 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.960 according to our lights have striven to lead decent lives. 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.320 If any friends of ours wish to commemorate us after death, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.920 the way to do it is by some expression of 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.360 good deeds to those who are still living. Surely a 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.320 dead man or woman who is a good man or 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.800 woman would wish to feel that his or her taking 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.520 away had become an occasion for real service for the 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.880 betterment of mankind, rather than to feel that a meaningless 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.200 pile of stone, no matter how beautiful, had been erected 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.440 with his or her name upon it in an enclosure 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.680 crowded with similar piles of stone. For such a tomb 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.480 or mausoleum often bears chief reference not to the worth, 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.760 but to the wealth of the one who is dead. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.720 In fact, after Tier's own death, Jenkinson notes that his 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:34.400 family was lukewarm, sometimes outright negative about commemorative statues. That's 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.560 not to say he was against being honored altogether. Jenkinson 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.760 notes that Roosevelt was thrilled when, in nineteen eleven a 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.000 damn in Arizona was named after him. I do not 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.720 know if it is of any consequence to a man 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.160 whether he has a monument. I know it is a 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.000 mighty little consequence whether he has a statue after he 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.480 is dead. Roosevelt said, if there could be any monument 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.400 which would appeal to any man, surely it is this. 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.640 You cannot have done anything which would have pleased and 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.320 touched me more than to name this great damn, this 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:10.480 reservoir site after me. The unmistakable sense one gets from 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.200 reading Roosevelt on this subject is that he wanted his 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.120 historical memory to be tied to civic, even civilizational achievement, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.520 Jenkinson writes, and that the giant Cyclopean dam in the 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:25.040 Arizona Desert named in his honor for his vision, his Americanism, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.000 his legislative mastery, and his love of the American West 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.120 appealed to him as the right way to pay tribute 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:35.760 to his life and work. If the Theater Roosevelt Facebook 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.480 group I'm in is any indication opinions about the statues 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:44.000 removal are heated to be frank Most people in there 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.080 are quite angry, But I, for one, think it could 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.080 be a good thing. Hear me out. Though I'm fascinated 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.480 by t R. It's probably clear by now that he 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.760 was not without his flaws. He was obsessed with his 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.680 image and wasn't above asking his friends to gloss over 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.280 the facts, to paint his life and his accomplishments in 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.640 the best light. He felt he knew what was right 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.639 and did not often want to admit when he'd been wrong. 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.320 He could be as bitter and as nasty as he 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.800 could be kind. And his views on race range trum 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:22.600 deeply paternalistic to openly racist, but understanding those views is important. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.560 As historian and assistant professor at the University of Virginia 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.640 Justine Hill Edwards said when I interviewed her, we live 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.120 in a country that from the very beginning has been 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.840 polarized along shoes of race, and so yes, it is 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:42.119 important to understand our public figures and political figures perspectives 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.919 on race because it's such an important part in my 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.480 my mind of what it means to be American. Thinking 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.399 about these questions, because it's an indelible part of the 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.199 American story, it would be like not understanding, you know, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:58.560 the Civil War or the American Revolution, or participation in 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.280 World War one or two. Like many historical figures, t 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:07.240 R was a person, an incredibly complex person. He did 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.720 both good things and bad things, and those things should 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:15.919 be considered together. Here's Edwards again, he did amazing things 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:23.560 for idealizing and realizing the beauty of America's natural landscapes 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:28.800 right for ideas of um conservation. That's really important, and 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:33.200 we don't have to detegrate that legacy with his more 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.960 problematic legacy on race. And so I think it's important 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:43.760 to view historical figures as they were. There complex people 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.639 with complex inner workings of their lives, and it's just 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.080 important to understand that human complexity. In order to even 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.880 get close to a full picture of tr we need 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.640 to consider all of the sides of him, rather than 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.879 picking the parts that support the vision of him that 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:05.639 you prefer. History like TR is complicated. I think the 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.440 statue's removal spurs us to grapple with all of that, 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.200 as well as with America's own racist history, and that's important, 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.680 which is why I hope that even if the statue 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.920 will one day be gone, a m n H will 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.560 keep its exhibit about the work around so visitors can 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.120 learn from it for decades to come. As Colinane wrote, 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:30.720 the statue indicates nothing of Roosevelt's environmental legacy. Rather, it 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.520 symbolizes the least appealing aspect of his natural history. Philosophy. 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.960 I think Colinane nailed it when he said, if we 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.080 honor complex figures, we should make sure we do so 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:46.800 in ways that emphasize their enduring contributions, not their worst failures. 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.280 As Jenkinson points out, Here's legacy isn't in a single statue. 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:57.640 In fact, it's all around us. Theodore Roosevelt's monumental footprint 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.320 can be found in nearly every state in America, Jenkinson writes. 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.320 While some of it is appropriately visible, still more is 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.320 quietly enshrined in the U. S. Navy, in the National 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.160 Park Service, in the modern identity of the American presidency, 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.679 and in countless landscapes, parks and forests across the Western hemisphere. 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.560 No other president has such a legacy. No other president 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.680 even comes close. I'll leave you with something t R 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.919 expressed to Cecil spring Rice in on the occasion of 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.639 his Secretary of State John Hayes death. It is a 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.040 good thing to die in the harness, at the zenith 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.359 of one's fame, with the consciousness of having lived a long, 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:43.120 honorable and useful life, he wrote, After we are dead, 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.879 it will make not the slightest difference whether men speak 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.639 well or ill of us but in the days and 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.720 hours before dying, it must be pleasant to feel that 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.679 you have done your part as a man and have 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.359 not yet been thrown aside as useless, and that your 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:00.000 children and children's children, in short, all those that are 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.600 dearest to you, have just caused for pride in your actions. 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.040 History Versus is hosted by me Aeron McCarthy. This episode 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:15.560 was written by me, with fact checking and additional research 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:20.360 by Austin Thompson. The executive producers are Aaron McCarthy, Julie Douglas, 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.000 and Tyler Clang. The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. The 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.720 show was edited by Dylan Fagan and Low Berlante. To 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.440 learn more about this episode and Theodore Roosevelt, check out 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.240 our website and Mental flass dot com slash History Versus. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.720 History Versus is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:53.080 Mental Floss. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:55.919 the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:57.280 listen to your favorite shows.