Speaker 1: History Versus is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Mental Flaws. One thing that happens when you make a
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt themed podcast is that whenever there's tr related news,
Speaker 1: you get a ton of messages about it, which is
Speaker 1: exactly what happened to me when news broke that the
Speaker 1: American Museum of Natural History had asked for the equestrian
Speaker 1: statue of tr that stands outside at Central Park West
Speaker 1: Entrance to be removed. The request comes at a time
Speaker 1: when hundreds of thousands of people are taking to the
Speaker 1: streets to protest police brutality and systemic racism. Statues of
Speaker 1: historical figures, including those of the Confederacy, and monuments dedicated
Speaker 1: to figures who owned or sold enslaved people, are being defaced, removed,
Speaker 1: or pulled down entirely, and not just here in the States,
Speaker 1: but all around the world as well. Although the museum's
Speaker 1: request to remove the statue, which features Tr on horseback
Speaker 1: flanked on the ground by one Native American and one
Speaker 1: for a configure, was made in light of the current movement,
Speaker 1: this particular statue of tr has been controversial for a
Speaker 1: very long time. In nineteen seventy one, activist dumped a
Speaker 1: can of red paint on Roosevelt's head, in what a
Speaker 1: paper at that time called the latest incident against the
Speaker 1: Roosevelt statue. Former New York City Parks Commissioner Gordon Davis
Speaker 1: said he would support the statue being blasted away from
Speaker 1: where it stood unless he noted, Roosevelt got off and
Speaker 1: walked with them. Beginning in two sixteen, activists have protested
Speaker 1: the statue by organizing marches, covering it with a parachute
Speaker 1: and splashing red paint on the base. Removing the statue
Speaker 1: was considered as recently as the Mayoral Advisory Commission on
Speaker 1: City Art, Monuments and Markers, which was, according to a
Speaker 1: report issued in January, committed to a process of historical
Speaker 1: reckoning a nuanced understanding of the complicated histories we have inherited,
Speaker 1: was split about what to do with the statue. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: the city decided to keep the statue where it was
Speaker 1: and asked the museum to add context to the work,
Speaker 1: which the museum did in its exhibit addressing the statue.
Speaker 1: We touched briefly on the statue and on the exhibit
Speaker 1: in a larger discussion of Roosevelt's views on race in
Speaker 1: the episode History Versus t R. Why was the city
Speaker 1: involved in the decision? You ask, because even though many
Speaker 1: associate the statue directly with the museum thanks to its location,
Speaker 1: Roosevelt's own history with the institution, and things like The
Speaker 1: Night of the Museum movies, it's actually part of a
Speaker 1: public memorial to Roosevelt located on public land. While some
Speaker 1: have issues with the statue because of Roosevelt himself, the
Speaker 1: museum has said that its request to move it isn't
Speaker 1: about Roosevelt, but rather because of the statue's composition and
Speaker 1: what it implies. So in this bonus episode of History Versus,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the statue, why it's there,
Speaker 1: what the artists intended, and why it's viewed as controversial today,
Speaker 1: and we'll dive in Roosevelt's own views on legacy. The
Speaker 1: statute story begins in nine when the New York State
Speaker 1: Legislature established the Roosevelt Memorial Commission. Nine years later, construction
Speaker 1: began on a memorial within the museum that, according to
Speaker 1: the prospectus of the competition, should express Roosevelt's life as
Speaker 1: a nature lover, naturalist, explorer, an author of works on
Speaker 1: natural history, The memorial may have ended up at a
Speaker 1: m n H because of Henry Fairfield Osbourne, who was
Speaker 1: then both president of the museum and the head of
Speaker 1: the New York State Roosevelt Memorial Commission. Osborne had also
Speaker 1: known Roosevelt, who contributed specimens to the museum and whose
Speaker 1: father was one of the founding members personally. The memorial
Speaker 1: was designed by architect John Russell Pope and included the
Speaker 1: museum's central park, West entrance, it's Theodore Roosevelt Rotunda, and
Speaker 1: the Theatore Roosevelt Memorial Hall. In the equestrian statue of
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt was commissioned to become a part of that
Speaker 1: larger memorial. In Pope wrote that the statue would sit
Speaker 1: on a granite pedestal bearing in equestrian statue of Roosevelt,
Speaker 1: with two accompanying figures on foot, one representing the American
Speaker 1: Indian and the other the primitive African. This heroic group
Speaker 1: will symbolize the fearless leadership the explorer, benefactor and educator
Speaker 1: sculptor James Earl Fraser, who had created, among other things,
Speaker 1: a bust of Roosevelt, a statue of Ben Franklin, and
Speaker 1: the Buffalo. Nickel was chosen to create the sculpture, which
Speaker 1: was based on a statue by Andrea del Vericio. The
Speaker 1: statue was completed in ninety nine and unveiled in nineteen forty.
Speaker 1: Fraser said that the figures beside the former president are
Speaker 1: guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if
Speaker 1: you choose, may stand for Roosevelt's friendliness to all races.
Speaker 1: The figures have no names and are below and trail
Speaker 1: behind Roosevelt. So we've talked about what the artists intended
Speaker 1: when they created the statue. Now let's talk about how
Speaker 1: the statue is viewed today. Because a white man is
Speaker 1: ahead of an above, an Indigenous American person, and an
Speaker 1: African person, many see a clear picture of racial hierarchy
Speaker 1: and white supremacy. Others see a monument to colonialism and conquest.
Speaker 1: Not only that, but the unnamed figure seemed to be
Speaker 1: a hodgepodge of stereotypes and poor research. The Native American
Speaker 1: figure appears to be a Plains Indian, but it's a
Speaker 1: generic and stereotypical rendering. According to the museum's exhibit about
Speaker 1: the statue, the shield on the African figure appears to
Speaker 1: be based on the Massai people, whom Roosevelt met during
Speaker 1: his time in East Africa, but the museum explains that
Speaker 1: the hairstyle and facial scarification on the figure do not
Speaker 1: accurately reflect Massid traditions, and the cloth draped around the
Speaker 1: body is more akin to a Greek or Roman sculpture
Speaker 1: in James Lowen wrote in his book Lies Across America
Speaker 1: What are Historic Sites get? Wrong? That some authorities claim
Speaker 1: the flanked figures are guides or continents, but visitors without
Speaker 1: such foreknowledge internalized the monument without even thinking about it
Speaker 1: as a declaration of white supremacy. When the statue went up,
Speaker 1: the museum was openly racist. At that time, the museum
Speaker 1: had strong ties to eugenics. Under Osbourne's tenure, two conferences
Speaker 1: about eugenics were held there. Roosevelt himself also supported certain
Speaker 1: aspects of eugenics, especially later in his life. Now about
Speaker 1: TR's quote unquote friendliness to all races, If you listen
Speaker 1: to the History Versus tr episode of this podcast, you'll
Speaker 1: remember just how complicated and sometimes contradictory Tier's views on
Speaker 1: race were. But simply put, Tr held white supremacist and
Speaker 1: racist views that were shaped by his childhood, the books
Speaker 1: he read, his education, and his correspondence with scientists. Roosevelt
Speaker 1: developed a theory of the stages of civilization, a racial
Speaker 1: hierarchy that put the white English speaking man on top.
Speaker 1: According to historian William S. Walker in Controversial Monuments and Memorials,
Speaker 1: A Guide for Community Leaders, Frasier's statue is basically a
Speaker 1: visual representation of the prevalent thinking about race at that time,
Speaker 1: a troubling hierarchy of human groups that places whites above
Speaker 1: indigenous peoples and other people of color on a universal
Speaker 1: scale of human civilization. He writes, the statute symbolism corresponds
Speaker 1: with overtly racist statements Roosevelt made in his writings and
Speaker 1: actions he took, such as his wrongful condemnation and punishment
Speaker 1: of black soldiers after the Brownsville affair in nineteen o six. Moreover,
Speaker 1: the racial imagery of Frasier's statue matches the dominant paternalistic
Speaker 1: attitudes that many whites, including Roosevelt, displayed toward people of
Speaker 1: color in the early twentieth century. We've covered a lot
Speaker 1: of the frankly horrible things Roosevelt said about other races
Speaker 1: in previous episodes of the podcast. But right now I
Speaker 1: want to look at just a few examples of what
Speaker 1: he said about black people to show just how contradictory
Speaker 1: is thinking could be. The first is from remarks he
Speaker 1: made in February five. Our efforts should be to secure
Speaker 1: each man, whatever his color, equality of opportunity, equality of
Speaker 1: treatment before the law, as a people, striving to shape
Speaker 1: our actions in accordance with the great law of righteousness.
Speaker 1: We cannot afford to take part in or be indifferent
Speaker 1: to the oppression or maltreatment of any man who, against
Speaker 1: crushing disadvantages, has, by his own industry, energy, self respect,
Speaker 1: and perseverance, struggled upward to a position which would entitle
Speaker 1: him to the respect of his fellows, if only his
Speaker 1: skin were of a different hue. Sounds pretty good, right,
Speaker 1: But in nineteen oh six, Roosevelt wrote in a letter
Speaker 1: to own Wister, the black people as a race and
Speaker 1: as a mass are all together inferior to the whites.
Speaker 1: And in nineteen sixteen he wrote to Henry Cabot Lodge,
Speaker 1: I believe that the great majority of Negroes in the
Speaker 1: South are wholly unfit for the suffrage, extending them that right,
Speaker 1: he said, could reduce parts of the South to the
Speaker 1: level of Haiti. Historian Thomas Dyer breaks down trs thoughts
Speaker 1: on a number of races in depth in his book
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt and the Idea of Race, and if you
Speaker 1: want more information than I'll ever be able to deliver here,
Speaker 1: you should definitely pick it up. Dire notes that while
Speaker 1: Roosevelt didn't support segregation or disenfranchisement of Black Americans, and
Speaker 1: while he championed specific black individuals like Mini cos, there's
Speaker 1: no question that Roosevelt felt that black people as a
Speaker 1: whole were inferior to white people, and he believed it
Speaker 1: was the white man's job to help the black man
Speaker 1: become as civilized as the white man, a process that
Speaker 1: he believed would take an extremely long time. However, according
Speaker 1: to Dire, Roosevelt shouldn't be lumped in with the deeply
Speaker 1: racist politicians of the Deep South, but instead was associated
Speaker 1: with a group of theorists who promoted the vision of
Speaker 1: racial equipotentiality, and with those politicians who publicly deplored the
Speaker 1: oppression of American Blacks yet opposed social equality dire rights. Thus,
Speaker 1: although Roosevelt may have been a moderating force in an
Speaker 1: age of high racism. He nevertheless harbored strong feelings about
Speaker 1: the inferiority of blacks, feelings which suggest the pervasiveness of
Speaker 1: racism and the harsh character of racial moderation in turn
Speaker 1: of the century America. Though these may have been prevalent
Speaker 1: views at the time, and while one could try and
Speaker 1: justify Roosevelt's racist views by saying that he was a
Speaker 1: product of his time, there were plenty of people at
Speaker 1: that time, like Jane Adams and William English Walling, who
Speaker 1: did not agree with these views, who were much more
Speaker 1: progressive on this particular issue than Roosevelt was. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back right around the time the museum's addressing the
Speaker 1: statue exhibit went up. In July, I spoke with David
Speaker 1: Hurst Thomas, Curator of North American Archaeology, Division of Anthropology
Speaker 1: at a m n H. Here's what he had to
Speaker 1: say about the statue and the exhibit. It was put
Speaker 1: up by the State of New York, demoralizing a governor
Speaker 1: who went on to become a president. And our entire
Speaker 1: Western facade is dedicated to the career Theodore Roosevelt. And
Speaker 1: as you walk along there you know there their sculptures,
Speaker 1: they are all sorts of things. But this standalone one
Speaker 1: on Roosevelt on the horse with with the African and
Speaker 1: the Native American walking along sent one message in the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties when it was put up, and it sends
Speaker 1: a different message today too many people. So we're trying
Speaker 1: to come to grips with that. What are the different
Speaker 1: points of view here? What does that tell us about
Speaker 1: where we were then and where we are now. In
Speaker 1: the exhibit, the museum grappled with what it called Roosevelt's
Speaker 1: troubling views on race and its own imperfect history, saying
Speaker 1: that such an effort does not excuse the past, but
Speaker 1: it can create a foundation for honest, respectful, open dialogue.
Speaker 1: In a recent statement, the museum said it was proud
Speaker 1: of the exhibition, which helped advance our and the public's
Speaker 1: understanding of the statue and its history, and promoted dialogue
Speaker 1: about important issues of race and cultural representation. But in
Speaker 1: the current moment, it is abundantly clear that this approach
Speaker 1: is not sufficient. While the statue is owned by the city,
Speaker 1: the museum recognizes the importance of taking a position at
Speaker 1: this time. We believe that the statue should no longer remain,
Speaker 1: and have requested that it be moved. Theodore Roosevelt, the
Speaker 1: fourth Tierra's great grandson and a museum trustee, supports the
Speaker 1: statue's removal, as does New York City Mayor Billed A. Blasio,
Speaker 1: who said in a statement that the city supports the
Speaker 1: museum's request. It is the right decision and the right
Speaker 1: time to remove this problematic statue. It hasn't yet been
Speaker 1: decided when the statue will be removed or where it
Speaker 1: will go, and the museum isn't completely cutting ties with
Speaker 1: tr Instead, it will name its Hall of Biodiversity for Roosevelt,
Speaker 1: in honor of his role as a leading conservationist. It's
Speaker 1: possible that Roosevelt would have preferred this memorialization to any statue.
Speaker 1: Michael Cullinane, the historian and author of Theodore Roosevelt's Ghost,
Speaker 1: who I interviewed for this podcast, wrote in a recent
Speaker 1: op ed for The Washington Post that Theodore Roosevelt never
Speaker 1: wanted a statue. Long before he died, he left strict
Speaker 1: instructions to his wife and children that no likeness of himself, equestrian,
Speaker 1: or otherwise appear in stone or Bronze. He even fought
Speaker 1: a memorial group that sought to preserve his birthplace in
Speaker 1: New York City. As a historian, Roosevelt knew that the
Speaker 1: past necessarily gets rewritten. He anticipated an ever changing legacy.
Speaker 1: Clay Jenkinson, who I interviewed or several episodes, also emphasizes
Speaker 1: this point in a new book of essays he co
Speaker 1: edited called Theodore Roosevelt Naturalist in the Arena. He points
Speaker 1: out that when North Dakotan's wanted to erect a statue
Speaker 1: to tr Roosevelt suggested that a pioneer or pioneer family
Speaker 1: would be more appropriate, and in nineteen sixteen, Roosevelt wrote
Speaker 1: a letter against building monuments to the dead, saying, there's
Speaker 1: an occasional great public servant to whom it is well
Speaker 1: to raise a monument, really not for the man himself,
Speaker 1: but for what he typified, a monument to Lincoln or
Speaker 1: Farragut is really a great symbolic statue to commemorate such
Speaker 1: qualities as valor and patriotism, and love of mankind, and
Speaker 1: a willingness to sacrifice everything for the right. As for
Speaker 1: the rest of us, who with failures and shortcomings, but
Speaker 1: according to our lights have striven to lead decent lives.
Speaker 1: If any friends of ours wish to commemorate us after death,
Speaker 1: the way to do it is by some expression of
Speaker 1: good deeds to those who are still living. Surely a
Speaker 1: dead man or woman who is a good man or
Speaker 1: woman would wish to feel that his or her taking
Speaker 1: away had become an occasion for real service for the
Speaker 1: betterment of mankind, rather than to feel that a meaningless
Speaker 1: pile of stone, no matter how beautiful, had been erected
Speaker 1: with his or her name upon it in an enclosure
Speaker 1: crowded with similar piles of stone. For such a tomb
Speaker 1: or mausoleum often bears chief reference not to the worth,
Speaker 1: but to the wealth of the one who is dead.
Speaker 1: In fact, after Tier's own death, Jenkinson notes that his
Speaker 1: family was lukewarm, sometimes outright negative about commemorative statues. That's
Speaker 1: not to say he was against being honored altogether. Jenkinson
Speaker 1: notes that Roosevelt was thrilled when, in nineteen eleven a
Speaker 1: damn in Arizona was named after him. I do not
Speaker 1: know if it is of any consequence to a man
Speaker 1: whether he has a monument. I know it is a
Speaker 1: mighty little consequence whether he has a statue after he
Speaker 1: is dead. Roosevelt said, if there could be any monument
Speaker 1: which would appeal to any man, surely it is this.
Speaker 1: You cannot have done anything which would have pleased and
Speaker 1: touched me more than to name this great damn, this
Speaker 1: reservoir site after me. The unmistakable sense one gets from
Speaker 1: reading Roosevelt on this subject is that he wanted his
Speaker 1: historical memory to be tied to civic, even civilizational achievement,
Speaker 1: Jenkinson writes, and that the giant Cyclopean dam in the
Speaker 1: Arizona Desert named in his honor for his vision, his Americanism,
Speaker 1: his legislative mastery, and his love of the American West
Speaker 1: appealed to him as the right way to pay tribute
Speaker 1: to his life and work. If the Theater Roosevelt Facebook
Speaker 1: group I'm in is any indication opinions about the statues
Speaker 1: removal are heated to be frank Most people in there
Speaker 1: are quite angry, But I, for one, think it could
Speaker 1: be a good thing. Hear me out. Though I'm fascinated
Speaker 1: by t R. It's probably clear by now that he
Speaker 1: was not without his flaws. He was obsessed with his
Speaker 1: image and wasn't above asking his friends to gloss over
Speaker 1: the facts, to paint his life and his accomplishments in
Speaker 1: the best light. He felt he knew what was right
Speaker 1: and did not often want to admit when he'd been wrong.
Speaker 1: He could be as bitter and as nasty as he
Speaker 1: could be kind. And his views on race range trum
Speaker 1: deeply paternalistic to openly racist, but understanding those views is important.
Speaker 1: As historian and assistant professor at the University of Virginia
Speaker 1: Justine Hill Edwards said when I interviewed her, we live
Speaker 1: in a country that from the very beginning has been
Speaker 1: polarized along shoes of race, and so yes, it is
Speaker 1: important to understand our public figures and political figures perspectives
Speaker 1: on race because it's such an important part in my
Speaker 1: my mind of what it means to be American. Thinking
Speaker 1: about these questions, because it's an indelible part of the
Speaker 1: American story, it would be like not understanding, you know,
Speaker 1: the Civil War or the American Revolution, or participation in
Speaker 1: World War one or two. Like many historical figures, t
Speaker 1: R was a person, an incredibly complex person. He did
Speaker 1: both good things and bad things, and those things should
Speaker 1: be considered together. Here's Edwards again, he did amazing things
Speaker 1: for idealizing and realizing the beauty of America's natural landscapes
Speaker 1: right for ideas of um conservation. That's really important, and
Speaker 1: we don't have to detegrate that legacy with his more
Speaker 1: problematic legacy on race. And so I think it's important
Speaker 1: to view historical figures as they were. There complex people
Speaker 1: with complex inner workings of their lives, and it's just
Speaker 1: important to understand that human complexity. In order to even
Speaker 1: get close to a full picture of tr we need
Speaker 1: to consider all of the sides of him, rather than
Speaker 1: picking the parts that support the vision of him that
Speaker 1: you prefer. History like TR is complicated. I think the
Speaker 1: statue's removal spurs us to grapple with all of that,
Speaker 1: as well as with America's own racist history, and that's important,
Speaker 1: which is why I hope that even if the statue
Speaker 1: will one day be gone, a m n H will
Speaker 1: keep its exhibit about the work around so visitors can
Speaker 1: learn from it for decades to come. As Colinane wrote,
Speaker 1: the statue indicates nothing of Roosevelt's environmental legacy. Rather, it
Speaker 1: symbolizes the least appealing aspect of his natural history. Philosophy.
Speaker 1: I think Colinane nailed it when he said, if we
Speaker 1: honor complex figures, we should make sure we do so
Speaker 1: in ways that emphasize their enduring contributions, not their worst failures.
Speaker 1: As Jenkinson points out, Here's legacy isn't in a single statue.
Speaker 1: In fact, it's all around us. Theodore Roosevelt's monumental footprint
Speaker 1: can be found in nearly every state in America, Jenkinson writes.
Speaker 1: While some of it is appropriately visible, still more is
Speaker 1: quietly enshrined in the U. S. Navy, in the National
Speaker 1: Park Service, in the modern identity of the American presidency,
Speaker 1: and in countless landscapes, parks and forests across the Western hemisphere.
Speaker 1: No other president has such a legacy. No other president
Speaker 1: even comes close. I'll leave you with something t R
Speaker 1: expressed to Cecil spring Rice in on the occasion of
Speaker 1: his Secretary of State John Hayes death. It is a
Speaker 1: good thing to die in the harness, at the zenith
Speaker 1: of one's fame, with the consciousness of having lived a long,
Speaker 1: honorable and useful life, he wrote, After we are dead,
Speaker 1: it will make not the slightest difference whether men speak
Speaker 1: well or ill of us but in the days and
Speaker 1: hours before dying, it must be pleasant to feel that
Speaker 1: you have done your part as a man and have
Speaker 1: not yet been thrown aside as useless, and that your
Speaker 1: children and children's children, in short, all those that are
Speaker 1: dearest to you, have just caused for pride in your actions.
Speaker 1: History Versus is hosted by me Aeron McCarthy. This episode
Speaker 1: was written by me, with fact checking and additional research
Speaker 1: by Austin Thompson. The executive producers are Aaron McCarthy, Julie Douglas,
Speaker 1: and Tyler Clang. The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. The
Speaker 1: show was edited by Dylan Fagan and Low Berlante. To
Speaker 1: learn more about this episode and Theodore Roosevelt, check out
Speaker 1: our website and Mental flass dot com slash History Versus.
Speaker 1: History Versus is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Mental Floss. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
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