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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, But

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: What's up, y'alls.

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Speaker 4: Your favorite cousin again, prop is in the building? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: saying well in your earbuds or speakers, however the hell

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Speaker 4: you listen it is your favorite cousin is here. I

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Speaker 4: am going to assume that that is the truth, and

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Speaker 4: since you can't answer me, we just gonna go with that.

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Speaker 4: It's been a while since I tapped in with y'all.

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Speaker 4: I ruined your music festivals and then told you about

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Speaker 4: your municipalities and your waters. Somebody reached out to us,

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Speaker 4: who you know, gestures wildly. We have not been able

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Speaker 4: to get back to her, but about how she was

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Speaker 4: a part of an effort to non privatize the water

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Speaker 4: inside of her neighborhood and district and they won. So

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Speaker 4: shout out to you. We apologize if you've you know,

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Speaker 4: our job has not been boring since the start of

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty five. But today I'm gonna bring you some blackness,

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Speaker 4: some genuine blackness, and then some This has to be

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Speaker 4: a black conversation.

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Speaker 3: Because you might of facts are racist.

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Speaker 4: I have to approach it like this because crime has

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Speaker 4: become a color mute term in the era of Trump.

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Speaker 4: It kind of always has been, but it's really obvious

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Speaker 4: now with the National Guard being unleashed onto the streets

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Speaker 4: of Washington, d C. There's some sort of clearly obvious

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Speaker 4: conflation between the houseless population, poverty, crime black folks. Like,

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Speaker 4: it's all kind of like one thing with this food,

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Speaker 4: which is not rocket science for y'all, it's just you

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Speaker 4: know what he talking about. You know how I know

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Speaker 4: this how he thinks is because whenever he talks about

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Speaker 4: black people supporting him, he talks about criminal reform, because

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Speaker 4: apparently that's what all black people care about. Only just

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Speaker 4: like you know, when he say immigration, he mean Latino

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Speaker 4: and the whole not feeling safe is just because you know,

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Speaker 4: the crime that the houseless population of DC have is

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Speaker 4: being ill.

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Speaker 3: That's the crime because they No one has ever given me.

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Speaker 4: A legitimate reason as to why not having a place

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Speaker 4: to stay as a crime.

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Speaker 3: Hell, you know, Margaret kill.

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Speaker 4: Joined him have this whole joint about loitering and loitering

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Speaker 4: laws like truancies. Why I'm getting ahead of myself. The

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Speaker 4: point is the crime is that you exist. So today

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Speaker 4: I want to talk to y'all about something that y'all

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Speaker 4: already know, which is it's never.

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Speaker 3: Been about the crime.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 4: Now, First of all, some stuff that don't matter. Y'all

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Speaker 4: still following Drake. I don't know if y'all like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: my crowd is following Drake. Let me stop making a

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Speaker 4: difference between us. But listen, so you know, Drake's suing

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Speaker 4: UMG and his label over you know, not like us,

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Speaker 4: and just proving that he's not like us anyway. The

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Speaker 4: new thing in this man's lawsuit he is he's the

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Speaker 4: man in UMG. Bring evidence over to push the teeth thing?

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Speaker 4: What do I mean by to push the teeth thing?

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Speaker 4: When push the t came at him, which we can

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Speaker 4: all agree if you in the rap, he won also

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Speaker 4: shout out the clips. So when you go back to

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Speaker 4: the push the teeth time, this is the back to

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Speaker 4: back and I'm charged up that time. He was like, Yo,

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna show y'all the emails, and y'all bring in

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Speaker 4: the emails from when you guys were suppressing Push the

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Speaker 4: T's stuff, when you guys were like making sure that

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Speaker 4: like it got copyright claimed and stuff getting off the

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Speaker 4: streamers and pulled down all this. Say, man, you helped

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Speaker 4: me suppress this man's music when Push the Tea came

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Speaker 4: after me, Why y'all don't do it with not like us,

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Speaker 4: which means your corny ass you just told on yourself.

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Speaker 3: Oh so Push It was right.

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Speaker 4: So what you're saying is in you trying to take

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Speaker 4: down Kendrick You done snitched on twenty eighteen? You right, Okay,

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Speaker 4: So because you had to label interfere with this battle fam. Now,

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Speaker 4: if you want to hear some more like real just

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Speaker 4: rapping ass rappers, there's this great battle that was going

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Speaker 4: on between Joey Badass and Ray Vaughn and then somehow

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Speaker 4: it became a triple with this dude named Daylight and

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Speaker 4: this other brother named Reason. These were some really really

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Speaker 4: dope bars. Now Absol got into the middle of it.

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Speaker 4: But now Apsol Rhapsody and Joey are going on tour,

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Speaker 4: which sucks because I'm on the same management team as

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Speaker 4: all of them and I ain't on that tour. I

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Speaker 4: wish I was, though it'd be a rap and rapping tour,

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Speaker 4: But I definitely don't do the numbers they do anyway. Today,

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Speaker 4: you know, in light of like I said, the Feds

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Speaker 4: in DC, Trump keep claiming these emergency cases that gives

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Speaker 4: him these powers to do these different things. And as

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Speaker 4: a side note, remember when J six happened and he

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Speaker 4: was like, well, Nancy Pelosi should have called in the

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Speaker 4: National Guard. Shan't call in the passional Guard? What was

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Speaker 4: President Trump's supposed to do? Well, I would think what

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Speaker 4: He's doing now, because they used to say these same

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Speaker 4: people that was arguing that Trump ain't had a power

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Speaker 4: to stop it, meaning he didn't have the power to

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Speaker 4: call in the national Guard, are also praising him right

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Speaker 4: now for using his presidential power to call in the

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Speaker 4: National Guard. Boy, I tell you, racism make you dumb

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Speaker 4: as hell. But in light of this, despite all evidence

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Speaker 4: showing that the crime rate has dropped thirty percent in DC,

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Speaker 4: this man still keeps talking about the crime wave and

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Speaker 4: the safety or the lack of safety that people feel

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Speaker 4: in DC. Now, I'm gonna let Bridget do a full

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Speaker 4: episode on really what's going on in Chocolate City? My

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Speaker 4: mama from DC. You know, my whole mama side of

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Speaker 4: the family still out there. So I used to spend

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Speaker 4: every other summer in DC. Now, don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 4: being down thirty percent is absolutely positive. But DC ain't safe.

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Speaker 4: Now it depends on what part you in.

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Speaker 3: See. That's the thing about crime statistics.

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Speaker 4: But before I get into crime statistics, I need to

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Speaker 4: talk about the concept of crime.

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Speaker 6: Period.

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Speaker 4: This will be no surprise to y'all because you listen

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Speaker 4: to Cools on media.

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Speaker 3: Crime is made up.

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Speaker 4: Now, criminal crime, I think it's very important to understand

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Speaker 4: that it is a social construct. Now what do I

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Speaker 4: mean by that? But on me is it's situational? Right,

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Speaker 4: How the same act can mean two different things. Now,

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Speaker 4: this is a conceptual thing that obviously our felt experience

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Speaker 4: is a little more real.

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Speaker 3: But let me give you an example.

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Speaker 4: Let a disaster hit, a hurricane, an earthquake, a flood.

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Speaker 4: If I go into that grocery store and get some bread,

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Speaker 4: am I looting or scavenging? Am I stealing or surviving.

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Speaker 4: And the answer is depends on what color you are.

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Speaker 4: Crime is a social construct. Because if that's the case,

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Speaker 4: how is George Zimmerman still walking? Having said that, one

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Speaker 4: could take this argument and go super bonkers on it

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Speaker 4: and say the same thing about pedophilia, Like, who's to

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Speaker 4: say that what Epstein did is a crime? Because, like

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Speaker 4: you said, crime is a social construct. Here's my answer

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Speaker 4: to that, it's social because we live in a social

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Speaker 4: souci it t fam. Although borders are made up, so

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Speaker 4: is money, and sow are driver's licenses. Of course, there's

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Speaker 4: no force field at the forty ninth parallel that separates

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Speaker 4: Canada from America. However, we have decided that before you

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Speaker 4: get behind the wheel of a car, you better have

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Speaker 4: passed some sort of examination for us to know that

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Speaker 4: you're safe enough to drive behind this You could physically

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Speaker 4: drive this car, but we live in a society that says, hey, homy,

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Speaker 4: I need you to make sure.

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Speaker 3: We need to have some sort of due diligence.

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Speaker 4: We have decided, as a species that is self aware

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Speaker 4: that our children matter.

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Speaker 3: Their safety is important to us.

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Speaker 4: The person standing next to you has the right to exist,

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Speaker 4: whether you like that person or not. They have the

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Speaker 4: right to exist. You cannot hold them against they will.

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Speaker 4: That's heybeas corpus, apparently unbeknownst to Christy Nole, who clearly

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Speaker 4: don't know what hate be as corpus means as all

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Speaker 4: the time it what is criminal and what is lawful

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Speaker 4: is something that we've agreed upon in our social contract. Now, we, however,

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Speaker 4: live in a modern secular democracy, which says that we

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Speaker 4: have a say in what becomes laws or not so

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Speaker 4: and got to just lay down and let you just

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Speaker 4: call stuff a crime that ain't a crime or that

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Speaker 4: shouldn't be a crime. Now, speaking of what is and

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Speaker 4: isn't a crime, here's the thing. Black people have been

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Speaker 4: telling you the answer for a long time, specifically rappers. Okay, Now,

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Speaker 4: I saw a TikTok about this, and it's very irresponsible

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Speaker 4: of me that I can't remember the hommy's name and

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Speaker 4: I can't you know, you get the suggested, you know,

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Speaker 4: or yeah, just stuff pop in like before you I

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Speaker 4: cannot find brad Brush TikTok black Man, super brilliant. But

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Speaker 4: he reminded me of some lyrics that Freeway said that

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Speaker 4: captures the point of what we're trying to make I

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Speaker 4: love his dude's TikTok Man, God, I gotta find it.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully, Hopefully I'll find it and put it in the

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Speaker 3: show notes.

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Speaker 4: But Freeway's verse with a song with jay Z, says,

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Speaker 4: we still hustle till the sun come up. Crack a forty.

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Speaker 4: When the sun go down, it's a cold winter. Y'all,

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Speaker 4: niggas better bundle up. I bet it's a hot summer.

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Speaker 4: Grab an onion just to rock it down. You hot,

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Speaker 4: Now listen up, follow me. You don't know the cops

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Speaker 4: soul purposes to lock us down.

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Speaker 3: Throw away to key.

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Speaker 4: But without this drug shit, your kids ain't got no

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Speaker 4: way to eat.

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Speaker 7: Huh.

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Speaker 4: We still trying to keep mom smiling because when her

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Speaker 4: teeth stops showing and her stomach start growling, then the

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Speaker 4: heat start flowing. If you from my hood, you know

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Speaker 4: you feel me keep going, the sneaks start leaning and

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Speaker 4: the heat stop working, then my heat start working.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna rob me a person. Okay, now listen.

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Speaker 4: These are the lyrics that Little Bruh quoted in his TikTok,

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Speaker 4: and the point he's making, which is the same point

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Speaker 4: I'm making, is that he's talking about the solutions to crime.

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Speaker 4: Like he said it right there, like I just want

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Speaker 4: my mom to smile. My kids don't have any other

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Speaker 4: way to eat. And then he says, when the heat

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Speaker 4: stopped working, then my heat start working.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna rob me a person. It is resources.

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Speaker 4: But again, follow what this brud trying to tell you

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Speaker 4: is that you putting law enforcement in our neighborhoods doesn't

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Speaker 4: fix anything. Does you follow? Does what we're saying? He's like, no,

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Speaker 4: you just want to lock us up. That is not

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Speaker 4: solving the problem. The problem is I'm hungry, My mama's hungry,

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Speaker 4: my kids are hungry. My sneaks start leaning. What he's

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Speaker 4: talking about is this tennis shoes as sneakers, they're leaning.

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Speaker 4: You know, when you walk on your sneakers too much

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Speaker 4: in the back of your shoes in the back house,

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Speaker 4: start running around the side, then it start thinning out,

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Speaker 4: so it's like the back of your shoe just looks uneven.

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Speaker 4: That's when your sneaks are leaning. This is what he's

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Speaker 4: trying to say. My stomach is rumbling. Had we had

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Speaker 4: better funded schools, had we had more opportunities, He was like,

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Speaker 4: I'm robbing this person because there is no other option.

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Speaker 3: Now, are there other options?

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Speaker 4: Maybe, But if you gonna do the math, listen, this

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Speaker 4: is simple economics. If you want to make one thousand

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Speaker 4: dollars tonight because the rents do tomorrow, you go over

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Speaker 4: to Spanish Jose's house. Spanish Jose say, hey, listen, you

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Speaker 4: ain't got to do nothing. Just put this bag in

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Speaker 4: your back seat and drive the park slope, drop it

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Speaker 4: off a comeback. Or you can go work twenty dollars

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Speaker 4: an hour at McDonald's. Ain't no uncles with endowments and

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Speaker 4: check this out. Let me push you even further, even

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Speaker 4: if you are smarty autar, even if you're a smart one.

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Speaker 4: The government just told Harvard that they can't recruit in

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Speaker 4: my neighborhood even if I got the grades for it,

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Speaker 4: because that's woke shit.

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Speaker 3: So what you want? What the fuck you want me

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Speaker 3: to do?

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Speaker 4: Now here's the premise of what I'm talking about, which is,

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Speaker 4: we know the solutions.

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Speaker 3: It's never been about crime.

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Speaker 4: Okay, but let me talk about some folks, some black

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Speaker 4: folks who do care about the solution, who do care

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Speaker 4: about crime, Because if we're talking about crime in our

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Speaker 4: urban areas, who the fuck do you think the crimes

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Speaker 4: are against and see that's the part that makes me

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Speaker 4: so mad.

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Speaker 3: When I be talking to these people.

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Speaker 4: You think we don't care because who are these crimes

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Speaker 4: getting carried out against.

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Speaker 3: You think we happy to see all them police.

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Speaker 4: One would think if it worked, we would be happy

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Speaker 4: to see all these police in our streets.

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Speaker 3: But you know what, the shit don't help.

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Speaker 4: Okay, what I'm gonna do in the rest of this

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Speaker 4: show is prove to y'all, based on decades of research,

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Speaker 4: what does reduce crime.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna link all the things in the bio.

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Speaker 4: I knew I had to come my a game if

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Speaker 4: I'm going on the cap and Year, because these some

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Speaker 4: of the smartest people like y'all. Listen, the people on

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Speaker 4: this show, y'all. Y'all is like real journalists. I'm just

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Speaker 4: a rapper that knows how to explain shit. So I

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Speaker 4: needed to make sure that I had my ducks in

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Speaker 4: a row. So I'm about to show y'all a trillion

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Speaker 4: examples of where if you really from these blocks, if

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Speaker 4: you really do care about the welfare of black people,

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Speaker 4: then maybe you should listen to black people. See and

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Speaker 4: let me bring in my trans community here because they

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Speaker 4: problem with you this to be honest with y'all, I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna be transparent, which this is part of what radicalized

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Speaker 4: me whilst really started to understand the trans experience is

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Speaker 4: because the shit they say about us is the shit

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Speaker 4: they say about you.

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Speaker 3: Your crime is we just don't like you around.

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Speaker 4: At the end of the day, all these laws against

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Speaker 4: trans people is really just because you just think they gross.

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Speaker 4: And so with us, it was just like you, like,

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Speaker 4: what is redlining, discriminatory practices in jobs?

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Speaker 3: You just don't want us around. What is white flight?

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Speaker 3: You just don't want us around?

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Speaker 4: And your justification of this is this made up ass

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Speaker 4: word name crime and that you care that crime matter.

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Speaker 4: But Nikki, you don't. Okay, I'm getting getting ahead of myself.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a break. All right, here we go. I've

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Speaker 4: calmed down. So the first thing you want to think

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Speaker 4: about is how crime is reported, right in the ways

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Speaker 4: for which it's reported, and then the geographical locations that

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Speaker 4: we're talking about. So when you say the crime in Washington, DC,

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Speaker 4: it's not like the crime happens in an even distributed thing,

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Speaker 4: like it's not all of DC. If you will, there's northeast, northwest, southeast,

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Speaker 4: south southeast and southwest now due to gentrification. Southeast which

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Speaker 4: is where Anacostia is and was at one time the

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Speaker 4: sort of mecha of just like Black DC of chocolate

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Speaker 4: cy Chocola Cy's, The whole city was chocolate forever. Like

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Speaker 4: I said, I noticed because I spent every other summer

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Speaker 4: there and my mama from there. But like Southeast, DC

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Speaker 4: is the last non gentrified area.

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Speaker 3: Now do you.

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Speaker 4: Think it's thugs sitting on the National Monument sipping forty ounces?

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Speaker 3: No, you out there with the tourists sipping macha.

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Speaker 4: So in one sense is when you say crime has

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Speaker 4: dropped thirty percent, it's like thirty percent since when?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 4: And is it averaged across all of DC or are

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Speaker 4: you talking about in its areas where things like carjackings,

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Speaker 4: homicides and stuff like that happen right now? Remember what

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Speaker 4: I talked about a long time ago, at least on

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Speaker 4: my show. Hopefully y'all remember this that the crime rates

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Speaker 4: in America is always a weird situation because we don't

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Speaker 4: live in America. You live in your city, so maybe

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Speaker 4: it is going crazy in your own local neighborhoods, so

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Speaker 4: you feel like, damn this place is wild. Or maybe,

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Speaker 4: like I said, maybe you're in like Northwest Portland, you

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Speaker 4: know what I'm saying, Like you know over there off Gleason,

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Speaker 4: you feel me in like it's nice, you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean, Like you don't never see a single But

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Speaker 4: if you live over there in Chinatown next to Voodoo Donuts, Dog,

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Speaker 4: you seem like you walking over zombies.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: What I'm trying to say is sometimes the statistics can

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Speaker 4: be deceiving. Now Granny and them who you know, bought

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Speaker 4: their house a long time ago. They see the graffiti

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Speaker 4: on the wall and they think, you know, YadA YadA,

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Speaker 4: the boys like loitering outside. How do you fix it? Well,

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Speaker 4: allow me to introduce it to Philadelphia, which coincidentally is

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Speaker 4: where Freeway is from.

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Speaker 3: So the data is pretty clear, you know.

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Speaker 4: If you look at the Violent Crime Reduction Report, it's

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Speaker 4: literally it's at the Department of Justice.

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Speaker 3: You can read it yourself.

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Speaker 4: It tells you exactly what has worked to drop homicide,

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Speaker 4: violent crime, carjacking, theft.

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Speaker 3: It tells you what has worked what has not worked.

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Speaker 3: A simple google right.

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Speaker 4: And the intro of this is this is a violent

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Speaker 4: crime reduction between twenty twenty one and twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 4: and it says for the past three years, the Justice

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Speaker 4: Department has been executing comprehensive strategies to reduce violent crime

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Speaker 4: rooted in local communities, and we're seeing trends in the

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Speaker 4: form of crimes being prevented and live saved. According to

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Speaker 4: available data from twenty twenty three, murder, rape, robbery, and

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Speaker 4: aggregated assault is in a considerable decline and nearly ninety

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Speaker 4: major cities across the country violent crime has continued to

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Speaker 4: drop during the last six months of this year compared

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Speaker 4: to the same period last year, including a seventeen percent

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Speaker 4: decreasing homicides. This is the Deputy Attorney General Monkyo on

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Speaker 4: September seventeenth, twenty twenty four. Now, to keep it very

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Speaker 4: real again, violent crime rates being up and down are

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Speaker 4: obviously relative.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: One thing was, well, we were in a pandemic, so

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Speaker 4: there's that, right. Another thing is it's almost like how

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Speaker 4: everybody was complaining again that crime was up. It is

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Speaker 4: like y'all forgot the nineties existed, like I'd lived it,

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Speaker 4: and baby, this ain't nothing, you know, the actual fear

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Speaker 4: of pain and suffering. This pales in comparison we live

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Speaker 4: in a great place in relation to what we went

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Speaker 4: through in the eighties and nineties. Now again we're talking

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Speaker 4: national trends right again in your local neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: It may be a green light afvenent. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying for you to.

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Speaker 4: Say that our country's becoming a cesspool means you not

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Speaker 4: reading the data. According to the Conversation, it's like independent journalist.

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Speaker 4: This author, her name is Katerina g Roman. She's a

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Speaker 4: professor of criminal justice at Temple University and as a

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Speaker 4: side note, at Temple University, Mahomie Timothy, he's teaching a

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Speaker 4: class on Kendrick.

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Speaker 3: Lamar and his lyrics and hip hop and justice.

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Speaker 4: I actually spoke at his class a couple of times,

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Speaker 4: so that was pretty dope to hear what he's doing.

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Speaker 3: But now check this out.

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Speaker 4: According to her writing, it says that the Pennsylvania spends

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Speaker 4: roughly two hundred thousand dollars a year for each juvenile

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Speaker 4: it incarcerates. According to the twenty twenty one report from

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Speaker 4: a bipartisan Pennsylvania Juvenile Justice Track Force, that's fifty times

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Speaker 4: the cost to deliver evidence based family therapy that would

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Speaker 4: prevent kids from going into the justice system in the

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Speaker 4: first place. I'm gonna tell you before I even read

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Speaker 4: the rest of this, because I lived it. We just

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Speaker 4: be bored. It ain't nothing to do. There are no opportunities.

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Speaker 4: When the heat stopped working, then my heat start working.

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Speaker 4: In Philadelphia, juvenile incarceration involves the confinement in City ran

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Speaker 4: Philadelphia Juvenile Services and other residential placements facilities. Young people

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Speaker 4: leave these facilities with lower chances of graduating high school,

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Speaker 4: freed mental health, and the higher likelihood of re arrest

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Speaker 4: or being shot.

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Speaker 3: Can I again, please speak from my own experience.

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Speaker 4: When you go into these juveniles cases, you have to

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Speaker 4: pick a location of people that you would be You'll

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Speaker 4: pretend even if you don't run with them, even if

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Speaker 4: you don't know them niggas outside of here. When y'all

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Speaker 4: get outside, y'all may never have talked again. But in here,

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Speaker 4: even if you went in there over some stupid like

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Speaker 4: shoplift and some damn spray paint, whatever the case may be,

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Speaker 4: you now got to run with the people that got

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Speaker 4: your same skin tone and are from your part of town.

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Speaker 4: You have to kids don't go in being members of gangs.

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Speaker 4: You have to join one to stay alive. Now check

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Speaker 4: this out. When you get out. Part of the terms

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Speaker 4: of your probation is you can't be around certain criminal

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Speaker 4: festivities or activities or people with criminal records.

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Speaker 3: Where you're gonna go.

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Speaker 4: If I just happen to live on sixtieth Street next

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Speaker 4: to my uncle, I just live here. You mess around,

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Speaker 4: go visit your granny house and then got a report

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Speaker 4: to your PO. You've been fragnized with known gang members.

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Speaker 4: You're probably going back. The shit don't work, y'all. But

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Speaker 4: what does now?

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Speaker 3: Again?

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Speaker 4: Back to this article, drawing from about thirty five years

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Speaker 4: of work in Philadelphia and other cities to understand what

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Speaker 4: makes neighborhoods safe for I believe the surist returns home

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Speaker 4: from prevention strategies aimed at young people who are not

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Speaker 4: yet immersed in robbery, shootings and gun activities. So they

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Speaker 4: give some examples of the things that they've done. First

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Speaker 4: of it is a school based case management In Barthrom

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Speaker 4: High now in southwest Philly, John Bartram High Schools has

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Speaker 4: a youth violence reduction initiative that launched in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 4: It was designed by former school safety chief in Philadelphia

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Speaker 4: now Philadelphia Police Commissioner Kevin Bethel, School Safety Offer Programs

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Speaker 4: Manager Ken Rosa, and criminal justice researcher Brandy Blasco and.

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Speaker 3: This person that wrote the article.

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Speaker 4: Students who have been involved in fights or show other

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Speaker 4: risk factors of violence and street gang involvements are referred

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Speaker 4: to this pro The initiative's core idea is simple, earn

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Speaker 4: students trust through consistent, credible mentorship, and step in when needy.

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Speaker 4: Stepping in means teaching conflict resolution skills, running engaging workshops,

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Speaker 4: buying a meal, intervening when a fight is brewing or

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Speaker 4: a student is on the verge of being expelled. Each week,

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Speaker 4: a team of administrators, counselors, school safety officers, and community

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Speaker 4: outreach workers, most of whom are based in the school,

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Speaker 4: review the participants progress tracks, follow through referrals, and coordinate

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Speaker 4: communication with family, school and staff. This is a tightly managed,

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Speaker 4: relationship driven safety net that gives students quicker access to

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Speaker 4: help make school climates calmer and safer. This seems so obvious.

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Speaker 4: You just need somebody you trust.

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Speaker 3: Listen. One of the things even.

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Speaker 4: In my own house, my own life, was I knew

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00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 4: my neighbors and my neighbors knew me, and if they

437
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 4: call me outside standing with the wrong people, I knew

438
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 4: they was gonna tell mama. Sometimes, since they're teenagers, they

439
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 4: don't have conflict resolution skills. All they know is to

440
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 4: pop off. You ever been angry, You don't think kids

441
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 4: be angry. Your teacher in there asking you about your

442
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 4: algebra homework, your stomach rumbling. I ain't got shit to

443
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 4: say to her because I'm hungry. And sometimes it's just

444
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 4: the meal. Sometimes it's just knowing somebody cares. Sometimes it's

445
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 4: just you feel like I know. I've experienced it too.

446
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 4: I feel like it's not even they ain't even know no

447
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 4: reason to explain my position to you, because you're not

448
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 4: gonna believe me, or you just gonna call the police.

449
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 3: I taught a kid.

450
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 4: I've said this story so many times, who used to

451
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 4: show up late in class? When I used to teach,

452
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 4: you show up late in class maybe three to four

453
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 4: times a week, always had his homework in his hand.

454
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: You've tarty that many times were supposed to call a

455
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: truancy officer. Ain't no way in the world I'm calling

456
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 4: a truancy officer because that mean they Mama gonna have

457
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: to pay a twenty five hundred dollar fee number one

458
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 4: and number two. Now he got a record. All I did, guys,

459
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 4: I just asked him, why are you late every day?

460
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 4: He say, because he trusts me. My daddy'd be drinking

461
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 4: too much a night, so he can't get up and

462
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 4: take us to school. So I take my brother to

463
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 4: school first and then come here.

464
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 3: And this is just the time I get here. I

465
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 3: never marked him.

466
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 4: Thwarty, since all you do is ask, right, which leads

467
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 4: me to the second thing, the power of credible caring adults.

468
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: It's real simple. You got people that care, you got

469
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: food programs. All right, let me nerd it up again.

470
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 6: Now.

471
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: According to the Youth Justice Services, Relationships, Rehabilitation, and the

472
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 4: Reality of Young People Involved a metasynthesis of qualitative literature.

473
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 4: This is a scholarly literature review dude results that says

474
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 4: that just having an adult who you know cares, just

475
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 4: having one that cared, changes significantly the chances of a

476
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 4: student getting into a life of crime.

477
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 3: But just knowing somebody care.

478
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 4: I'm going to link in it again into these show notes,

479
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 4: all of the data, all the stuff I've been looking at,

480
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 4: so you can check it out yourself. I know, it

481
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 4: seems like a gross oversimplification by the way that I'm

482
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 4: just saying it right now.

483
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: Usually you know what I'm saying. We was doing the

484
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 3: it can happen here thing.

485
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 4: I gotta be able to read this stuff out to you,

486
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: but I can read a part of it.

487
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 3: It says that that the themes.

488
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 4: That broke out after interviewing one hundred and fifty kids

489
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 4: is that young people reported first being pessimistic about entering

490
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: these services, and their past experiences impacted their ability to

491
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: trust and were initially.

492
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 3: Cautious of professionals. But watch this.

493
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 4: These were the themes and sub themes they felt valued

494
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 4: and finding worth within their system. The reciprocal nature of

495
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 4: understanding and respect these kids felt respected, the importance of

496
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 4: having one good person, creating a secure base for expiration

497
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 4: and development, and then showing a genuine care by going

498
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 4: above and beyond.

499
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 3: So basically, just.

500
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 4: Be kind and it helps a student sixsed.

501
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 3: Ain't that crazy?

502
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, homicides in Philadelphia

503
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: at the lowest level they've been in twenty five years.

504
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: How it's long time and it takes effort. But next

505
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 4: I want to talk about who the city of Baltimore.

506
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 3: What is new? Mayor up there cooking? All right?

507
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 6: Next?

508
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: All right, we bike. Now Baltimore.

509
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know this, which I love

510
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 4: about it, and of course you probably don't know about it.

511
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: Because a black man did this.

512
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 4: Baltimore's homicide rate has fallen forty percent. Now, Baltimore, you

513
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 4: understand this is where the wire took place. Don't get

514
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 4: me wrong about Baltimore. Baltimore active murder capital of a dog.

515
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 4: Oh listen, Baltimore was active now. According to the Guardian,

516
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 4: violent crime in America's big cities has been receiving since

517
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 4: the pandemic for about two years, but even in comparisons

518
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 4: Baltimore improvement is breathtaking. Fewer people have been killed in

519
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 4: the city over the last seven months than any other

520
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: particular period for fifty years. Here's the funny part. Mississippi

521
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 4: talking about sending a National Guard up to DC. Do

522
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 4: you help with the crime in DC? Meanwhile, Jackson, Mississippi,

523
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 4: got a higher murder rate than DC. Right now, y'all, people,

524
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 4: is weird. It's never been about crime. Now, back to Guardian.

525
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: As of fifteen August, the running three hundred and sixty

526
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 4: five day total for murders in Baltimore stood at one.

527
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: Hundred and sixty five dead.

528
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 4: Assuming the city remains at this pace, the murder rate

529
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 4: will finish below thirty per ten thousand residents for the

530
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: first time since nineteen eighty six. If it remains on

531
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 4: pace since the first of January, it would have finished

532
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five at one hundred and forty three murders,

533
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 4: a rate of about twenty five per one hundred thousand,

534
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 4: the last scene in Baltimore since nineteen seventy eight.

535
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: Now check this out.

536
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: Y'all may not remember this, but y'all remember Freddie Gray,

537
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 4: the boy that got killed in the back of the

538
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 4: police holding tank.

539
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: See, that's what happens when you just bring into a place.

540
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 4: It ain't about the crime though, back to the Guardian,

541
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 4: since twenty fifteen, there has been here in Baltimore, this

542
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 4: acknowledgment that the equity needs to be the priority.

543
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: Right.

544
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 4: Mayor Brown said the riots were as much about the

545
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 4: conditions of poverty as it was about Gray's death. I

546
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 4: hope you hearing that people losing their homes and foreclosures

547
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 4: to water bills, for example, as they were about police brutality.

548
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: But the heavy handed response to the cops to the protests,

549
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: failed to hold the police accountable for misconduct, right, viscerating

550
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 4: the relationship between the Baltimore police and the public. Baltimore

551
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 4: State Attorney Marion Moseley laid murder.

552
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: Charges on the officers.

553
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 4: Involved in Baltimore's police union, closed ranks and response, eviscerating

554
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: the relationship between the police and politicians, and serious scandals

555
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 4: at the city Hall and the state's attorney offers, and

556
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: the failure of Moseley's charges to result in convictions.

557
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: Violence skyrocket.

558
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 4: Here come this young brother, Brandon Scott, young black man. Right,

559
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 4: he's a former city council member. Right, he's been a

560
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 4: long observer of the violence, you know what I'm saying.

561
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: And before he became the mayor in twenty twenty, then

562
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 4: he implemented what he's calling a comprehensive three pillar approach.

563
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 5: Right.

564
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: The first pillar is called public health approach to violence. Right.

565
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 4: The second pillar is community engagement and interagency coordination.

566
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: Right. The third pillar is evaluation and accountability.

567
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 6: Right.

568
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: So, like I said in the beginning, it starts with

569
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 4: the community, all right. So check this out again from

570
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 4: The Guardian against Baltimore's police budget topping a half a

571
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: billion dollars, the largest police budget per capital of any

572
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 4: large city in the USA. The political establishment gave its

573
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 4: new millennial mayor room to experiment with fifty million dollars

574
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 4: of Washington's money. So they took that budget that was

575
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 4: a half a billion, gave him fifty million, right, And

576
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 4: since Trust was like solo, the first step was to

577
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 4: get everybody aboard. So he took that money the cops,

578
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 4: the hospitals, the jails, the school the social services, the

579
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 4: state Department, the Feds, and he appointed this dude named

580
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 4: Richard Worley Oh who is the city police commissioner in

581
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 4: June twenty twenty three. Wesley was a lifelong Baltimore officer,

582
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: picked in part to bring the rank and file in

583
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 4: line with Scott's anti violence program. Scott emphasizes partnerships as

584
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 4: an important part of the process. Now, he took other

585
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: federal grants, and he gave the money to the people

586
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 4: that actually do the services.

587
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: He ain't just keeping for them.

588
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: Now here's the thing cuts my mouth to say it,

589
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 4: But if you are going to stop violence in the

590
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 4: situation that we live in, the cops got to be involved.

591
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 4: Because most of the time, the cops are the problem.

592
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: It's always punishment in prison with them. They only come

593
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 4: with a stick when something already happened. So you got

594
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 4: to get them on the table, and you got to

595
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 4: get them at the table with somebody that's gonna be

596
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 4: willing to be held accountable.

597
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: And remember that's pillar three.

598
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 4: Now now far being for me because I don't live

599
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: in Baltimore.

600
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: Would I ever shill for no mayor like this.

601
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 4: I'm just telling you what the data say is and

602
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 4: I got family in Baltimore. Now, what Scott said is

603
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 4: again we focus on the individuals and groups that are

604
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 4: most likely to be the victim or perpetuator of violence.

605
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: We go to them. Listen, they knock on doors.

606
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 4: There's a social worker that comes to the door with

607
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 4: a letter from the mayor that says, yo, you're trying

608
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 4: to be a part of this, and they're only targeting kids,

609
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 4: are families that they know got low poverty rates and

610
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 4: high chances of crime. You looking for the people who

611
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 4: are most likely gonna fall a victim, to perpetuating it

612
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 4: or receive you get because remember how we started this

613
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 4: whole thing before you think we don't care about crime,

614
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 4: we're the ones that's happening too, so, he says. Quote

615
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 4: Curtis Palomero, who runs the youth violence prevention nonprofit RAKKA

616
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 4: in Baltimore, says, we're talking about young people with the

617
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 4: elevated risk. We're not talking about the young person that

618
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 4: says FU to his teacher or tells his mom and

619
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: dad or grandpa he don't want to do X y Z.

620
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 4: We're talking about kids who have literally probably have two tracks,

621
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 4: jail and death. He knocks on the door while the

622
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 4: cop is carrying met the mayor's letter, and as often

623
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 4: as not he has to knock on a dozen doors

624
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 4: before he gets a chance. Why cause niggas don't trust

625
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 4: the cops right, Why would they? But since there's no

626
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 4: single thing that is preventative, trust must be built. Right

627
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 4: moving on in this article, there are two types of

628
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 4: people that are most vulnerable, nasays, the people in their

629
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 4: early twenties who are feuding over trivial matters someone looked

630
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 4: at me wrong, somebody bumped in as somebody right, or

631
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 4: other people who are in the drug game more around.

632
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 4: The violence that has to do with other criminal enterprises

633
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 4: are so much more calculated. Critically, it's not every young

634
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 4: person with Instagram beef, and not every stand down neighborhood

635
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 4: street dealer that rises to their attention. The risk factors

636
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 4: creates a reasonable, articulatable, illegally defensible basis for contact, which

637
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 4: means you're not being hunted by the cops.

638
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: Do you understand the piece I would have felt hit.

639
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 4: I known that since I wasn't involved in none of

640
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 4: this shit, they may not be coming up to me.

641
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 4: You've already calmed my nervous system down right. There's another

642
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 4: story about a young man who was recovering after a

643
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: gunshot and in this life coach Nigga from a youth

644
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 4: advocate program approached him and Jalen said, this is This

645
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 4: man said, he just had been in the wrong part

646
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 4: of West Baltimore at the wrong time. Now, most of

647
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 4: us who grew up like this, that's true. He wasn't

648
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 4: especially receptive to this first life life coach at all.

649
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 3: He said, I thought there was a catch.

650
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: I thought I'd have to pay them back in the future,

651
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 4: because when the police do it to you, that's exactly

652
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 4: what it is.

653
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: You got to pay them back later.

654
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 4: But this person is funded by the city to just

655
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 4: be a life coach, I ain't asking you to snitch

656
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 4: on nobody. I ain't asking you to make yourself put

657
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 4: yourself in danger. Outside is somebody who understands what it's

658
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 4: like to live out here. This life coach says, it's

659
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 4: about follow up. Today, they might say get the fuck

660
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 4: out of here tomorrow. They might be wanting some services.

661
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 4: It might be something tragic that happens and they need change.

662
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: Like I said, my mother's not smiling no more. I

663
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 4: need a way to pay my mama's life bill. Can

664
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 4: you help me with that? Here's what's crazy. Yes, I

665
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: can help you with that. We have services. Why because

666
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 4: I'm talking to the other departments. Right on the law side,

667
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 4: here's the prevention. They dismissed thirty four percent of non

668
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 4: violent charge. I was a non violet offender. It was graffiti.

669
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 4: Just make me pay the fine, Like it's fine. I

670
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 4: gotta pay the fine. I don't care. Right, you have

671
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 4: like a nickel bag of weed in your pocket. You

672
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 4: looking at five years. The shit is not working. That's

673
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: over policing. But if the district attorney look at you

674
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 4: and say, nigga's some weed man, get the fuck out

675
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 4: of here. Go take care of your mama. Matter of fact,

676
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 4: I want you to talk to this brother over here.

677
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: You're gonna help get your plumber's license. Oh so there's

678
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 4: job placement, right. There's all that, and then finally evaluation. Listen,

679
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 4: you got a carrying adult, you got services available to you,

680
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 4: and you know if somebody in this program, if any

681
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 4: of these law enforcement, these city people act the fuck up,

682
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 4: there are consequences.

683
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 3: That is pillar three. I'm gonna link all this stuff

684
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: to you.

685
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 4: There's a four year evaluation, and you will get fucking fired.

686
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 4: If I know that if you treat me right, something

687
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 4: gonna happen to you. I might think a little. Listen,

688
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 4: the heat stopped working, so my heat start working. But

689
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 4: if my stomach is full, and the bills are paid,

690
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 4: and there's after school programs that go to and I

691
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 4: know these old people around me are gonna trust me

692
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 4: when I tell them stuff. When I'm dealing with situations

693
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: that may or may not be out of my control,

694
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 4: when I got big homies pressing me to do this,

695
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 4: and there's somebody I could trust that I could talk

696
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 4: to that's not gonna turn me into a snitch, because

697
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 4: you ain't telling the cops just to get them to

698
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 4: give me information about a crime that happened over there.

699
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 4: That's not what's happening right now. You are trying to

700
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 4: prevent the violence. You're not trying to catch a criminal.

701
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 4: You're trying to prevent criminality, and it's at a fifty

702
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 4: year low. But sure, go and send the National Guard.

703
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: Now listen. Obviously this ain't the system. I won't, but

704
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 4: it's the system we got.

705
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: This is not ideal.

706
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 4: You would never see me shill for no police department

707
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 4: or mayor, but cities like Philly in Baltimore are proven. Nigga,

708
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 4: if you just care and you spend money on trusted

709
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 4: sources and provide resources, the crime it drops itself. Seems

710
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 4: so simple. But you know what do we know? We're

711
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 4: just black people and all this tells me what we

712
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: already knew. It was never about crime, ever, because there's

713
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 4: research that shows what actually works in reducing crime.

714
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 3: What this about? You just think we're you and you're

715
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 3: a white supremacist.

716
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 4: You just want a white world and you think it's

717
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 4: cool to have military in our streets.

718
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, you didn't invent that. You was

719
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: in Trump.

720
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 4: You know how I know you ain't invent that because

721
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 4: there's an amendment in the Constitution.

722
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 3: That says that we don't want to.

723
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 4: Live in a world where the military is on every corner,

724
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 4: but apparently you do.

725
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 3: It's clearly not about crime.

726
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about a

727
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: world on fire and how to put it out. I'm

728
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: your host, Nia Wong. The world is fucked. It's the

729
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: one thing everyone agrees on in the vacuum of a

730
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: defeated Democratic Party and a hideously unpopular fascist takeover that

731
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: is nevertheless on the march ideologies VI for the mantle

732
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: of resistance to the fascist purge, Sir on mom Donnie's

733
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: victory in New York represents a resurgent social democracy in

734
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: the streets. Everyone from the roles to communists to anarchists

735
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: are fighting against ice and the National Guard occupations. To

736
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: get our bearings in the swirling vortex of ideology, let

737
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 1: us check in slightly further to the right, but still

738
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: firmly in the grounds of liberalism, on a new movement

739
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: called abundance. What is abundance? Brust into Prominence by a

740
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: book in March twenty twenty five simply called Abundance by

741
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: liberal stalwart Asracline and Derek Thompson, who was well known

742
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: futures people like Matthew and Glycias. They argue that growth

743
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: is good. They argue we should make more things. They

744
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: argue we should have bold visions of the future with

745
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: to quote Malcolm Harris's description in The Baffler, desalinated ocean

746
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: water flowing from the taps, skyscraper farms, growing our food indoors,

747
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: and quote star pills manufactured in space, clean air, and

748
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: super fast planes. Think big, think fastest, solve problems by

749
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: building more. They even have a new magazine run off

750
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: of Substack called The Argument, which is supposed to be

751
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 1: about bringing these new ideas to the left. It includes

752
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: Social Democratic stalwart Matt Prunek Isn't that nice? Semaphore, and

753
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: the reporting on the launch of The Argument wrote, quote

754
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: many of The Argument's writers have supported or, in Thompson's case,

755
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: authored The Ideas of Abundance, a recent book advocating for

756
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: reforms to improve government deficiency, lower the cost of housing,

757
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: and improve public transportation, among other initiatives. And those sound

758
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: like good things, don't they. Let's take a look at

759
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: who's funding The Argument. It's funded in part by Emergent Ventures,

760
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: which was created by the Coke Brothers work can'tas Center

761
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: with seed money from Peter Keel Wait what they have

762
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: a conference every year? They had one in twenty twenty four.

763
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: The twenty twenty five conference was last week. Who was

764
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: speaking the Appondance Conference twenty twenty five? Speakers include Charles

765
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: Lehman from the right wing Manhattan Institute, an organization founded

766
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: by Ronald Reagan's director of the CIA. Well, let's hear

767
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: him outs, Let's see what he thinks. Lehman advocates what

768
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: he calls deportation Abundance witches his plan to make a

769
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: more efficient deportation machine that could actually deport every undocumented

770
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: person in the US.

771
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 5: Wait what?

772
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: This conference is also sponsored by the Koch Families organizations

773
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: Stand Together. It includes speakers from the American Enterprise Institute,

774
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: one of the co sponsors of the event, did another

775
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: conference with special guest Kevin Roberts, the guy who wrote

776
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five. Isn't this supposed to be a

777
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: liberal movement?

778
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 7: Oh no, what's coming here?

779
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: Can Abundance really be funded by all these right wing

780
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: billionaires and tech fascists? Oh no, as you may have

781
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: guessed from the title, most of today's episode is going

782
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: to be about what the people behind Abundance actually want,

783
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: and it's not what you or I want. It is

784
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: what Peter Teal wants, what Mark Andrieson wants, what jd

785
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: Vance wants. In a sense, it is what Donald Trump wants.

786
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: Because Abundance as an ideology is an attempt by the

787
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: tech oligarchs to take over the left the same way

788
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: they took over the right, and that makes the ideology

789
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: extremely dangerous, as we are going to unfailed. This project

790
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: is directly tied to many of the worst people in

791
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: this country right now. It is tied to Peter Teal,

792
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: It is funded by Peter Teele. It is funded by

793
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: Mark Urson, who is another effectively Tea Ali, who believes

794
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: in most of this, if not all, of the same

795
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: things that Heel does. These ideas are normally unacceptable on

796
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: the liberal left, but because Abundance is wrapped in the

797
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: ideology of liberalism, because it wears the faces of liberal

798
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: star warts like Ezra Kleine, it can be smuggled in

799
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 1: in a way that leaves the left and liberalism as

800
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: a whole subsceptible to broad ideological capture by the very

801
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: same tech fascists we are all trying to oppose. Before

802
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: we fully get into what the funders of abundance actually want,

803
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about what the ideology of

804
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: abundance is. The very very basic ideology of abundance is

805
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: that we need more things, we need to build more,

806
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: and that government regulations are standing in the way of

807
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: building things. Now, if this sounds suspiciously Reaganite to you,

808
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: that's because, in a sense is asra client describes this

809
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: as the progressive supply side economics. Now, supply side economics

810
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: famously is Reagan's thing. You will note that basically everyone

811
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: across the entire political spectrum, at least sort of when pressed,

812
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: will agree that supply side economics simply does not work.

813
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: But let's hear them out. I think another way to

814
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: understand what abundance is and why it works the way

815
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: that it does is to look at it in the

816
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: context not of American political ideology and debates, but of

817
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: Chinese political debates. Now, Chinese political debates have for most

818
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: of the last decade, really decade and a half, taken

819
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: the form of arguments about either increasing the size of

820
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: the pie or splitting the pie more evenly. On the left,

821
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: you have a case for redistribution right, for higher taxation,

822
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: for higher welfare benefits, for giving people things from the

823
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: states and redistributing it from rich people to the poor.

824
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: On the rights, you have grown the pie which argues

825
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: that instead of redistributing wealth, we should simply grow more

826
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: wealth and that wealth will trickle down to everyone else. Wait,

827
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: this is just Reaganism again. It's it's all Reaganism. This

828
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: is This is the very frustrating thing about abundance is

829
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: that when you actually go past the language they're using

830
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: and you look at what they think will happen, it's

831
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: just trickle down economics. Again, It's just trickled down economics,

832
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: and abundance is on the right wing side of it. Now,

833
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, there are definitely arguments for places where we

834
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: do in fact need to build more things, right, and

835
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: this argument has become particularly prominent with the rise of yembiism,

836
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, I don't know, building more houses is good.

837
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: I mean it was literally a demand of the Hungarian Revolution, right, Like, yeah,

838
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: we need more of it. But Comma, we need to

839
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: be very very careful here because the way that abundance

840
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,399
Speaker 1: structures its arguments, and the ways that, for example, a

841
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: really really vulgar version of yembiism has been deployed by

842
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: these people in order to just sort of wholesale opposed

843
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: government regulations. And we're not just talking about things here

844
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: like eliminating zoning requirements, right. We are talking about, as

845
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: we'll get into later, the people behind this movement wants

846
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: to create their own city states and special economic zones

847
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: where no government regulations supply. But the fundamental argument here

848
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: is that lifting government restrictions on production will increase the

849
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: size of the market, and because price is just supply

850
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: and demand, prices will fall because there's more supply. None

851
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 1: of this is how markets actually work. One of the

852
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 1: crucial insights of anthropology is that markets are not simply

853
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: neutral objective forces that function according to precise mathematical laws.

854
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: They are socially constructed, even in neoclassical economics, by their

855
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: own logic. Price is not just supply and demand. That's

856
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: something that's only true in perfectly competitive markets, and perfectly

857
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: competitive markets do not exist. They probably cannot exist, but

858
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: they do not exist in the real world, and they

859
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: do not represent something like the housing markets in the

860
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: real world, markets are defined by power. Neoclassical economist attempt

861
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: to explain the role of power in markets through monopoly. Right,

862
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, you can look at monopoly and monops Andy,

863
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of very different things that they

864
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: think are sort of deviations of this perfect competitive market

865
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: where people band together to build power and thus are

866
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: able to distort what the perfect free market should be doing.

867
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: And this is a feature of basically every market that

868
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: actually exists. Right, There aren't perfectly competitive markets. They all

869
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: have power in them, and they all have degrees of

870
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: monopoly to use a sort of Marxian term in them

871
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: as well. Now do you know what else has a

872
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: degree of monopoly? That's right, it is the products and

873
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: services that support this podcast. So what does this actually

874
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 1: have to.

875
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 6: Do with abundance?

876
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: Long long ago, in a galaxy far far away, I

877
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: explained rent on this show, and this is specifically here

878
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: rent in the context of what you pay to your landlords.

879
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: I promise this will circle back to this will circle

880
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: back to sort of abundance the mbeism.

881
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 8: In a second I.

882
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: Attempted to explain rent by drawing on the work of

883
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: the legendary Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando corneal To argue that the

884
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: rent that we paid to our landlords functions similarly to

885
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: oil rent. Reprice is not set by supply and demand,

886
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: but instead by the social power of oil producers. Now

887
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: people got very, very mad at me for this, but

888
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: the long derier of history has vindicated me. In the

889
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: real world, it turns out I was right. The most

890
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: powerful example of this in the housing market is the

891
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: case a Real Page, a service that allowed landlords to

892
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: get recommendations on their pricing based on information from all

893
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: the landlords who submitted their data, thus creating an algorithmic

894
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: machine for price fixing. This got bad enough that even

895
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: the Biden Just Department got involved. Here's from the Department

896
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: of Justice's lawsuits against Real Page.

897
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 3: Quote.

898
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: Real Page acknowledged that its software is aimed at maximizing

899
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: prices for landlords, referring to its products as quote driving

900
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: every possible opportunity to increase price, avoiding the race to

901
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: the bottom in down markets, and quote a rising tide

902
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: raises all ships. A Real Page executive observed that its

903
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: products help landlords avoid competing on the merits, noting quote

904
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: there is a greater good in everybody succeeding versus essentially

905
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: trying to compete against one another in a way that

906
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: actually keeps the entire industry down. A Real Page executive

907
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 1: explains to a landlord that using competitor data can help

908
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: identify situations where a landlord may have a fifty dollars

909
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: increase a seat of ten dollars increased for the day.

910
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: Another landlord commented about Real Page's product, I always liked

911
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: this product because your augurithms used proprietary data from other

912
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: subscribers to suggest rents in terms that's classical price fixing. Now,

913
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: I was derided for arguing that landlords would ban together

914
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: use in the social power to prevent rents from falling

915
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: even with the units sit an empty, And it turns

916
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: out I was right the whole time. They were doing

917
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: exactly that. It turns out, in the actual real world

918
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: of the market, all of these companies on all of

919
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: these landlords had found a way to ban together in

920
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: order to use their social power and use the information

921
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: in their possession to fix the price of rent. Here

922
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: is from Reuters, drawing from yet another lawsuit, this time

923
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: from the Attorney General of DC. A monthly report from W. C.

924
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: Smith in twenty twenty two showed the company had increased

925
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: revenues per unit by four point six to four point

926
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: seven percent despite decreased occupancy levels. According to the lawsuit,

927
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: so what is that saying. That is saying that the

928
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: actual number of people in these apartments is decreasing, the

929
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: number of apartments staying open that have no one in

930
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: them is increasing, But the price is not going down,

931
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: even though there's more supply, the price is still going up.

932
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,760
Speaker 1: Why is the price still going up? Well, well, well,

933
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: the Justice Department calls this price fixing large scale collusion

934
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: to disrupt the functioning of the perfectly normal competitive market.

935
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: The anthropologist for Nando Coronel, as I argued before, calls

936
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: it absolute rent, rent extracted by virtue of the social

937
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: power of the landowner. As I wrote in that episode, quote,

938
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: absolute rent does not obey the law of supply and demand.

939
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: It is the product of social power, of the power

940
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: of landownership itself and the organization of the landowning class.

941
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: And they're backing by the state, and it's b militaries

942
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: and police. And this causes economists attempting to use supply

943
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: and demand to explain rent to get very very important

944
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: events very wrong. Morris Aedelman, the famous oil economists, predicted

945
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two that the price of oil was

946
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: going to collapse based on over supplying competition. Instead, it

947
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: increased four hundred percent between nineteen seventy three and nineteen

948
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: seventy four because oil producers banned together to exercise their power,

949
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: and their organization, known as OPEK, became a genuine world power.

950
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: As Coroneial put it, quote, the sharp increase of nineteen

951
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: seventy three and nineteen seventy four and oil prices did

952
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 1: not result from a world shortage oil. It was rather

953
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: the outcome of a long historical process by which OPEK nations,

954
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: acting as landowners, developed a means to extract a rent

955
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: on the basis of their ownership of the oil fields

956
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: and absolute rent in addition to the differential rents they

957
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 1: had collected in the past. In nineteen seventy three, a

958
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: set of converging political and economic conditions helped establish their

959
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: collective ability to restrict the world's supply of oil. With

960
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: this power, OPECK felt entitled to set the market price

961
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: of oil, thus freeing the level of rent from the

962
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: previous constraints of market price. Now rent itself, absolute and

963
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: differential would determine the market price of oil.

964
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 3: What does that.

965
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: Sound like, Oh, it sounds like Real Pages price fixing algorithm.

966
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: Why does it sound like Real Pages price fixing algorithm.

967
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: It's because in the real world, markets are not neutral

968
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: institutions that operate according to neutral laws. Their institutions created

969
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: and enforced by the state. Landlords can check up your

970
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: rent because they wield collective power together and have the

971
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: ability to use the state to drag you out of

972
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: your home at gunpoint. Abundance is, to a large extent,

973
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: an attempt to harness widespread discontent over the price of goods,

974
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: the price of rent, the price of food, and argue

975
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,919
Speaker 1: that you can simply produce more and this will make

976
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: all of the prices go down. As we've seen here,

977
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: as long as the social power is held by the

978
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 1: rent extractors, they can simply set their own price. None

979
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: of this is addressed in abundance, and there's a simple

980
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: reason for that. The people funding the abundance agenda are

981
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: the very same people profiting from their social power. So

982
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: let's talk about the money. I'm going to be quoting

983
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: here from a report from Prospect, which is very good.

984
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: The Institute for Progress IFP, which co hosted Abundance twenty

985
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: twenty four and is listed as a key institutional partner

986
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: by the Inclusive Abundance Initiative, has a bevy of corporate ties.

987
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, IFP received one hundred and ten

988
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: thousand dollars from FAI and has fai's executive director on

989
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: its board. Now, FAI is the Foundation for American Innovation.

990
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to read this is also an Abundance co host,

991
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: which is very funny. I am going to read a

992
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: quote from Kate Willett, who has also done some excellent

993
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: reporting on this, and she describes how the FAI hosted

994
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: another conference in twenty twenty four called rebootquote the quote.

995
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: Surprise guest of the conference was Kevin Roberts, president of

996
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation in chief architect of twenty twenty five.

997
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: Now back to the Institute for Progress. Part of what's

998
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: going on here, right is that this is an increadin,

999
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: you know. And what I'm trying to emphasize by how

1000
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: confusing this whole thing is, is that Abundance is composed

1001
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: of a series of think tanks and weird institutes that

1002
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,919
Speaker 1: are all tied into a bunch of tech money. Right,

1003
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: keeping the acronym straight is very difficult. You do not

1004
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: need to hold all of them in your head. The

1005
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: other thing that you need to understand about this right

1006
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: is if you look at who is co hosting these conferences,

1007
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: and who was behind these books, and who was behind

1008
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: these media outlets, a very very clear picture starts to emerge.

1009
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to quoting from Prospect. One of

1010
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: the funders of the Institute for Progress was Emergent Ventures,

1011
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: which is a product of the Coke Back Mercantis Institute

1012
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: at George Mason University. Emergent itself was launched by a

1013
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: grant from Peter thel Peter Thial is a right wing

1014
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: billionaire with a vast influence network at the intersection of

1015
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: technofuturism anti democratic thought, who has called technology an alternative

1016
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: to democratic politics small d democratic by the way, he

1017
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: means the concert of democracy to quote unilaterally change the world.

1018
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: Vice President elect J. D. Vance is a known scion

1019
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: of Peter Thiel. Let's look at the Chamber of Progress,

1020
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: another one of the groups that is heavily involved in abundance.

1021
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: Chamber of Progress, which self identifies its work as part

1022
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: of a growing abundance policy movement, is a trade group

1023
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: started with Google seed money by Google alum Adam Kovakovich.

1024
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: Kovakovic proudly touts his college activism, leading an effort to

1025
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: cross a United farm Worker's picket line. The Chamber of

1026
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: Progress's partners red funders include A sixteen Z Circle, Coinbase, Google,

1027
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: Kraken Ripple, Wai Mo, and Dreesen Horowitz or A sixteen

1028
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: Z is, a venture capital firm heavily invested in Ai

1029
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: and Crypto co founder Merchandrisen believes the technology solution to

1030
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: every problem. He's also on Meta's board. He is also

1031
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: a theolite tech fascist. This is it, in some sense,

1032
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: a very very interesting collusion of forces. Right, we have

1033
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: the Koch Brothers, who are, you know, sort of the

1034
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: ancient libertarian right side of Republican dark money. They are,

1035
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, the people who have traditionally funded right wing

1036
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: movements in the past. They are the tea party people.

1037
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 1: They are, you know, they are sort of the boogeyman

1038
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: under the bed for anyone who has wanted to make

1039
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: the world a better place for a very very long time,

1040
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: and they and their organizations are working with the emergent

1041
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 1: tech fascist rights you know, people like people like Mark Andreeson,

1042
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: people with Peter Teel, and these are the organizations that

1043
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: have gotten in bed together in order.

1044
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 6: To do this.

1045
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: Now, these people have a bunch of absolutely hideous beliefs.

1046
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 1: We're not even going to get in to the eugenics here,

1047
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: but like these the people funding this thing are huge eugenesis.

1048
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 1: We literally do not have time to do all of

1049
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: the eugenic shit associated with this, because if I were

1050
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,439
Speaker 1: to actually do the eugenic I mean we talked about

1051
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: some of like Mattie and gleciass bullshit on this podcast earlier,

1052
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: but like if I actually went through and did this,

1053
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: this episode would be like twelve hours long. I am

1054
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: going to cover this sort of Network States peer theolite

1055
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: eugenics circle at some point later. That is a forthcoming episode.

1056
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 6: But yeah, for.

1057
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: Now, here are these ads hopefully are not eugenics.

1058
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 6: Woo.

1059
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: So let's get back to who I think are really

1060
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: the two primary villains of this story, and that is

1061
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 1: Peter Theal and Mark Entrieson, who are two of the

1062
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: most dangerous people in the entire world. Teal and Reason

1063
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 1: are fascists who believe the state should be a corporation

1064
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: run by the tech elite. They do not believe in democracy,

1065
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: and particularly thel has said that democracy is the enemy

1066
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: of freedom.

1067
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:11,919
Speaker 3: Right.

1068
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: When these people talk about running the state like a business,

1069
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: they mean that there should be an unaccountable fucking philosopher

1070
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 1: CEO king, and that there shouldn't be democracy. A common

1071
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: feature of this, and you know, the physical manifestation of

1072
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: this thing is an idea called the network state, and

1073
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: a very common theme of the founders of Abundance is

1074
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: their support for the network state, both as a concept

1075
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: and in terms of building them. So what is the

1076
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: network state? The network state is, to a large extent,

1077
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: the thing I've just been describing, Right, The version of

1078
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: it that they pitch is that these are like they're

1079
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: like opportunity zones, right, they are these like tech cities,

1080
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: you know that will eventually become like real states that

1081
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: are that are based off of special economic zones where

1082
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: you know, special economic zones are like the normal regulations

1083
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:00,040
Speaker 1: of the state do not apply. So you can and

1084
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, do whatever you want, right, you can we

1085
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: can build prosperity by having no government regulations and run

1086
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 1: everything through corporations. These network states would be again actual

1087
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: straight up corporations that own and control territory and run

1088
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 1: it as the state. These states are already coming into existence.

1089
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 1: Maybe the most important prospera a corporate city for profit

1090
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: in hont Duras that is run by a corporation, again

1091
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: in a special economic zone where the state does not apply.

1092
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: It does not have a mayor, it has somewhat appointed

1093
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 1: by the corporation who runs the city. This is happening

1094
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: all over the world, particularly in developing countries, where it

1095
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: is being pushed by all of these just absolutely demonic

1096
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: tech cools, and they're also being started in attempts at

1097
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: being started to run them in the United States. I'm

1098
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: going to quote here from Shanley's venture capital blog, venture

1099
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: Capital Status, which is a very very good resource on

1100
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: the network state, which will be covering more fully later,

1101
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: because we don't have time to do much more than

1102
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: a brief introduction to their ideas here. In Soleerro County, California,

1103
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: a cartel of venture capitalists associated with Andreas and Horowitz,

1104
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 1: which is again a mark Entrecent's firm bought up over

1105
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 1: sixty five thousand acres of rich, fertile farmland and using

1106
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: secretive and threatening methodologies including suing local farmers, they plan

1107
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 1: to build a city with weapons, developments and manufacturing, aerospace

1108
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: and robotics companies, shipbuilding homes, and schools. This network state

1109
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: is called California Forever. Also in California, there has been

1110
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: a discussion by network state operatives of taking over Presidio

1111
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and there is a network state planned

1112
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: in Somona County. Its founder is a quote former promonist

1113
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: venture capitalists. These are the same people funding Abundance. Here's

1114
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 1: from Kate Willet again, one of the California Forever millionaires.

1115
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 1: California Forever is again the name of the network state

1116
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: they want to set up by buying a bunch of

1117
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: land in Soledo County. One of the California Forever billionaires,

1118
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: Patrick Collison, the CEO of Stripe, looms large in abundance world.

1119
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 1: Along with open Philanthropy. He donated to fund a one

1120
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million dollar Abundance grant tied to Ezra

1121
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 1: Klein's book release. Coulson is a key backer and inspiration

1122
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: for the Institute for Progress, the think tank which works

1123
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: closely with others in the Abundance network, including the Abundance

1124
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four conference. The goal of the network state

1125
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 1: movement is to accelerate the destruction of the United States

1126
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: and create these corporate network states in their wake. They

1127
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 1: want the world to be composed of these networks of

1128
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: venture capital tech corporations, run and ruled by them by

1129
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: the tech elite for profit. These are the people that

1130
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: are funding all of the fucking movements. These are the

1131
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: people funding the argument. These are the people funding the

1132
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: Abundance Conference. These are the people that people like Ezrakline

1133
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 1: have been brought in to run cover for. These are

1134
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: Trump people. They are the forces behind jd Vance. They

1135
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: want to inflict their vision of tech fascism on the world,

1136
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: but they are hideously popular in power. In order to

1137
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: achieve their regenda, they cannot simply rely on their incredible

1138
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: hegemony on the right. They need you, They need your

1139
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: buy in. They need the support of good and kind

1140
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: hearted liberals who they can radicalize into TRUMPI and tech fascists.

1141
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: This is their opening gambit, and they've played it well,

1142
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: but there is still time for them to fail. There

1143
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: are still time for us to build a future built

1144
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: by us and for us, by and for each other,

1145
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: based on mutual aid and the benefit of all of

1146
01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: worlds without death squads and ice, of world ruled not

1147
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: by corporations but by us. The fight for that world

1148
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 1: he can's here and now.

1149
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 7: Welcome to it could happen here a show about things

1150
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 7: falling apart. One such thing frequently falling apart is any

1151
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 7: notion of privacy or digital privacy. Ever, encroaching surveillance is

1152
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 7: one of the biggest global issues affecting free expression and

1153
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 7: a free press, both directly through surveillance technology but also

1154
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 7: by chilling speech. I'm Garrison Davis, and this past week,

1155
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 7: news has swept the Internet that ICE is using software

1156
01:07:56,560 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 7: from an Israeli company called Paragon, which allows ICE or

1157
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 7: DHS to secretly hack into any smartphone, break encryption, access messages,

1158
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 7: track real time location, and turn your iPhone or Android

1159
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 7: into a walking listening device, all of which sounds very

1160
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 7: scary and some of which is true, though some of

1161
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 7: these claims are exaggerated or even likely false based on

1162
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:28,600
Speaker 7: what we can currently infer from published research. Due to

1163
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:33,560
Speaker 7: legitimate fears, we live in a world of surveillance paranoia,

1164
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 7: which can lead to surveillance myths. This is a core

1165
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 7: function of the Panopticon. People should take ICE's new enhanced

1166
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 7: smartphone surveillance capacity seriously, but to adequately do so requires

1167
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 7: an accurate understanding of the threat model, which we will

1168
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 7: get into later this episode with some help from the

1169
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 7: Electronic Frontier Foundation. But first let's address the news where

1170
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 7: the aspect of this story what has actually changed recently?

1171
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 7: DHS first contracted with the US branch of Paragon in

1172
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 7: September of twenty twenty four for two million dollars, but

1173
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 7: later that October the contract was put on hold thanks

1174
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 7: to a Biden executive order restricting a government use of

1175
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 7: foreign spyware, and ever since then the contract has been

1176
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:27,719
Speaker 7: frozen pending a compliance review. But then on September first,

1177
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 7: twenty twenty five. Just last week, investigative journalist Jack Paulson

1178
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:35,839
Speaker 7: reported that the stop work order affecting the Paragon contract

1179
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 7: had quietly been lifted, allowing Ice to follow through on

1180
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 7: the contract and start using Paragon's spyware technology, most likely

1181
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 7: including their flagship product, Graphite. What is Graphite? Great question

1182
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 7: one that I felt underqualified to fully answer myself. So

1183
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 7: I spoke with an expert, Cooper Quentin of the digital

1184
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 7: rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation. You'll hear from him

1185
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:03,520
Speaker 7: throughout the episode.

1186
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 6: My name is Cooper Clinton.

1187
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,839
Speaker 9: I am a senior staff technologist at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

1188
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 6: There I do a lot of different things.

1189
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 9: Most specifically for the purposes of this talk, I do

1190
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 9: malware research on malware that targets activists, journalists, and civil society.

1191
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 9: So Graphite is a type of spyware that is able

1192
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 9: to read your messages from your phone the same way

1193
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 9: that you or you know, maybe a cop could if

1194
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 9: they had physical access to your unlocked phone, right.

1195
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 6: That is the main capability that it has.

1196
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 9: According to the reporting published by Citizen Lab, its main

1197
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 9: job is to hook into WhatsApp and into other encrypted

1198
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 9: chat apps and just read the messages in those apps,

1199
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 9: like in the messages you've already sent and any future

1200
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 9: messages that you send.

1201
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 6: That's really it's the that's the meat of Graphite.

1202
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 7: Something that sets paragone apart from their fellow is ray

1203
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 7: Le competitors is that Paragon has marketed itself as the

1204
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 7: ethical choice for spyware. One of their early investors in

1205
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 7: Israeli firm called Red Dot wrote quote Paragon builds best

1206
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:16,799
Speaker 7: in class cyber intelligence software to empower democratic countries, providing

1207
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 7: cutting edge capabilities that make the world safer unquote. On

1208
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:24,839
Speaker 7: their US website, Paragon says that they are quote unquote

1209
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 7: empowering ethical cyber defense and that they provide customers with

1210
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 7: quote ethically based tools, teams, and insights to disrupt intractable

1211
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:39,600
Speaker 7: threats unquote. Though they use the term cyber defense on

1212
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 7: their US site, Paragon's startup page reads quote Paragon is

1213
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:49,520
Speaker 7: an offense focused cyber company using digital intelligence for smartphone

1214
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 7: and internet surveillance solutions. The company applies strict moral restrictions

1215
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 7: on itself, limiting its extraction of information from targeted devices

1216
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:02,799
Speaker 7: to conversations on chat apps. Paragon works solely with police

1217
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 7: forces and intelligence agencies that meet the standards of an

1218
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 7: enlightened democracy, which includes only thirty nine countries unquote. One

1219
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 7: of Paragon's senior executives told Forbes in twenty twenty one

1220
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 7: that they would only sell their technology to governments that

1221
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 7: quote unquote abide by international norms and respect fundamental rights

1222
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,959
Speaker 7: and freedoms, and that quote authoritarian or non democratic regimes

1223
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 7: would never be customers. Unfortunately, Paragon was not pressed on

1224
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 7: what their definition of authoritarian regimes includes. In recent reporting,

1225
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 7: there's been a lot of misconceptions about the capabilities of

1226
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 7: Paragon's main product, Graphite. The Guardian wrote, quote By essentially

1227
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,639
Speaker 7: taking control of the mobile phone, ice can not only

1228
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 7: track in individuals whereabouts, read their messages, look at their photographs,

1229
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 7: but also open and read information held on encrypted applications

1230
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 7: like WhatsApp or signal. Spyware like Graphite can also be

1231
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 7: used as a listening device through manipulation of the phone's

1232
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 7: recorder unquote. But research into Graphite by the surveillance watchdog

1233
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 7: group Citizen Lab has not indicated that graph Fight has

1234
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 7: all these capabilities or tries to quote unquote take control

1235
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 7: of the entire device. But other tech journalists have since

1236
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 7: parroted The Guardian's unfounded claims that Graphight fully takes over

1237
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 7: a phone and can record audio through the microphone.

1238
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 9: This is actually less full featured than other spyware we've

1239
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 9: seen in the past, like NSL groups, Pegasus spyware. Other

1240
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,560
Speaker 9: types of spyware that I've seen tend to have a

1241
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 9: lot more capabilities. Right, they have the capability of like

1242
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 9: turning on GPS location tracking, the capability to turn on

1243
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 9: a hot.

1244
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 6: Mic, to do all these other things.

1245
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 9: And this seems as far as as far as Citizen

1246
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 9: Lab has reported to not be present within the graphie

1247
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:58,759
Speaker 9: maware and I think this is because Paragon has presented

1248
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 9: themselves as kind of being the quote unquote responsible malware

1249
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 9: manufacturer rate and they're like like trying to minimize the

1250
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 9: amount of data they collect. It doesn't mean they couldn't

1251
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,559
Speaker 9: add this stuff in the future, but that's the gist

1252
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 9: of it. It's actually, you know, kind of a very

1253
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,639
Speaker 9: stripped down malwur. I don't want to minimize like how

1254
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 9: impactful it would be for this mawur to get all

1255
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 9: of your messages, right, Like that could have a huge

1256
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 9: impact for people. But we don't need to make up

1257
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 9: capabilities that our adversary has, especially under fascism, right, like

1258
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 9: we can we can just work with the capabilities that

1259
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 9: we know they have.

1260
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 7: A lot of reporting and discussion of graphite and Paragon

1261
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 7: frame it as an equivalent to nsoss by where Pegasus,

1262
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 7: which has been banned in the United States for four years.

1263
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 7: Pegasus seeks to completely hijack the target device more broadly,

1264
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 7: similar to guardians claims about graphite, but by forcing this comparison,

1265
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 7: people might be inadvertently boosting Paragon's brand with free marketing

1266
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:01,840
Speaker 7: by making the product ought to be something that I'm

1267
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 7: sure Paragon would like to have people think it is,

1268
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 7: but doesn't actually equate their realistic threat model, similar to

1269
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 7: how predictions of an evil super intelligent AI actually currently

1270
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:17,440
Speaker 7: serve to boost the stock price of AI companies.

1271
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:19,719
Speaker 9: I think a lot of people are doing the work

1272
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 9: for these companies that are aligning themselves with fascism, right,

1273
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 9: And I don't think it's a great trend actually, Right,

1274
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:33,519
Speaker 9: Like people are assuming that you know, Palenteer is sort

1275
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 9: of watching everything, right, and it really Palenteer is just

1276
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 9: like fancy visual graphing software essentially, right, Like the danger

1277
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 9: of Palenteer is combining these two government databases, right, this

1278
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 9: malware the GRAPHI maware, right, Like, yeah, it's it's not good,

1279
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:53,520
Speaker 9: but you know it's not magical, right, it's not omniscient.

1280
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 9: It's not able to you know, I don't know, go

1281
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 9: eat the fridge out of your food and you know,

1282
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:00,320
Speaker 9: beat up your dad or something. You know.

1283
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 7: Well, now we're talking now, now that's a good app.

1284
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,640
Speaker 9: If only, if only tech bros could solve such social problems.

1285
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 7: No, no, they would never no.

1286
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,640
Speaker 9: But yeah, you know it's not it's not a magical right,

1287
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 9: and we don't need to do their work for them, right,

1288
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 9: We don't need to do their myth making for them.

1289
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 10: Right.

1290
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 6: A bigger threat to the majority.

1291
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 9: Of people in the US is getting your phone seized

1292
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 9: by the cops.

1293
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 6: Right, totally.

1294
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 9: There's nothing this maur can do, according to public reports,

1295
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:31,800
Speaker 9: at least that the cops can't do if they get

1296
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 9: hold of your unlocked phone.

1297
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 7: Right. Having faced idea or fordit pass code is much

1298
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 7: more dangerous to your digital security. Yes, as an average person,

1299
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:43,680
Speaker 7: even as it like an anaged person, like going to

1300
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 7: a protest.

1301
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,560
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, absolutely absolutely.

1302
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 9: You know, Celebrate, which is the machine that police plug

1303
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 9: your phone into to make a copy of all the

1304
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 9: data on it, is much more dangerous to the.

1305
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:58,920
Speaker 6: Average American than the paragont is. They're much more likely

1306
01:16:58,960 --> 01:16:59,640
Speaker 6: to encounter that.

1307
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 7: This is more of a niche gripe, but one that's

1308
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,599
Speaker 7: still important. There's been claims that quote ice can now

1309
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 7: hack any phone and break encryption, but graphite doesn't actually

1310
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 7: a quote unquote break encryption. It's not going after the

1311
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 7: encryption on Signal or WhatsApp. Instead, Paragon tries to circumvent

1312
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:22,640
Speaker 7: end to end encryption by trying to gain access to

1313
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 7: content on a target device once it's been unencrypted by

1314
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:30,879
Speaker 7: an application like WhatsApp for the user to read. Similar

1315
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 7: to how if you have push notifications on for an

1316
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 7: application like Signal. If the police seese your phone and

1317
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:41,640
Speaker 7: push notifications display messages from Signal, that doesn't mean the

1318
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 7: police have quote unquote broken signals encryption. Now, in order

1319
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 7: for Graphite to extract messages from your phone, it needs

1320
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:52,839
Speaker 7: to get onto your phone in the first place. Graphite

1321
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,599
Speaker 7: is just the implanted code that can read and extract

1322
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 7: your messages. First, it needs to get onto your phone

1323
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,679
Speaker 7: via what's called an exploit, which is usually a message

1324
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 7: sent to a phone number or a WhatsApp account that

1325
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 7: attacks a vulnerability in your phone's code to gain permissions

1326
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 7: to load the Graphite onto the messaging apps. Graphite and

1327
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 7: the exploit are two separate programs that work together, but

1328
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 7: exploits need to be frequently changed to keep up with

1329
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 7: software security updates, and that's expensive. You need different exploits

1330
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:30,440
Speaker 7: for Android and iOS Paragon has been using zero click exploits,

1331
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 7: meaning the owner of the phone doesn't have to manually

1332
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:36,680
Speaker 7: click a link or intentionally download a file for the

1333
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 7: exploit to try to gain permissions on the device. You

1334
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 7: don't have to click or do anything. You just have

1335
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 7: to receive the message and then the spyware gets to work,

1336
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 7: which is very scary. But this technology cannot be deployed

1337
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 7: on mass because of how expensive and specific it needs

1338
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:53,719
Speaker 7: to be in order to work.

1339
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 9: The other thing that I think is missing a lot

1340
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 9: from the conversation about Graphite in particular.

1341
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 6: Is that the malware is just the program.

1342
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:03,679
Speaker 9: That runs when it gets on your phone, and first

1343
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 9: before they can install Graphite, they have to get onto

1344
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 9: your phone through some sort of exploit. If your phone

1345
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 9: is up to date and fully patched, this will have

1346
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:14,800
Speaker 9: to be as zero day exploit, which means it's an

1347
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 9: exploit that has had zero days for Apple or Google

1348
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:21,600
Speaker 9: or whoever to fix it because it is unknown to them.

1349
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,759
Speaker 9: And these exploits cost millions of dollars right now. Paragon

1350
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 9: is not going to pay that millions of dollars for

1351
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 9: each person they're exploiting, but there is a large per

1352
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 9: person cost to ice for each person they're going to exploit,

1353
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:39,120
Speaker 9: because Paragon doesn't want to blow their zero day, which

1354
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 9: costs them millions of dollars to either buy or develop themselves.

1355
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 7: Welcome back. I'd like to get into a little bit

1356
01:19:55,560 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 7: of Paragon's backstory and how they've grown as a company.

1357
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 7: Farragon was founded in twenty nineteen by former Israeli Prime

1358
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 7: Minister A hood Brock and A hood Schnorsen, a former

1359
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 7: commander of the IDF's cyber warfare unit, basically Israel's equivalent

1360
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 7: of the NSA called Unit eight two hundred three. Other

1361
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:21,679
Speaker 7: Paragon co founders are also ex Israeli intelligence. The startup

1362
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,439
Speaker 7: got early financing from a Tel Aviv investment fund called

1363
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 7: Red Dot Capital. The Paragon also received backing from American

1364
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 7: venture capital. In twenty twenty one, Forbes reported that the

1365
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 7: Boston based Battery Ventures had invested between five to ten

1366
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 7: million in Paragon. Bloomberg Capital has also supported the company.

1367
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 7: In twenty twenty two, Paragon launched a US subsidiary and

1368
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 7: started recruiting former US Feds to help break into the

1369
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 7: American market. The New York Times reported that the DEA

1370
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 7: has used graphite as far back as twenty twenty two.

1371
01:20:55,920 --> 01:21:00,000
Speaker 7: Former CIA assistant director John Finbar Fleming became the exis

1372
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 7: executive chairman of Paragon US in January of twenty twenty four,

1373
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:08,080
Speaker 7: according to his LinkedIn. In December of twenty twenty four,

1374
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 7: Paragon was acquired by AE Industrial Partners for nine hundred

1375
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:17,759
Speaker 7: million dollars. AE Industrial Partners is a Florida based private

1376
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 7: equity fund with a specialized security portfolio. Once they bought

1377
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 7: Paragon emerged with another AE asset, the cybersecurity company red Lattice.

1378
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 7: Back in twenty twenty one, Paragon had about fifty employees.

1379
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,720
Speaker 7: Now it has over five hundred. In June of twenty

1380
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,759
Speaker 7: twenty five, they were hiring one hundred and fifty more.

1381
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 7: Just a week ago, executive chairman John Finbar Fleming shared

1382
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 7: a recruitment post that red Lattice was hiring quote emerging

1383
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:53,439
Speaker 7: and offensive cyber engineers unquote. Next, let's discuss the biggest

1384
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 7: case study of graphite being deployed that we know of.

1385
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 7: On January thirty first, twenty twenty five, Meta, this encrypted

1386
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 7: messaging app WhatsApp, sent a notification to ninety accounts that

1387
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 7: their smartphones were suspected of being targeted by spyware, which

1388
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 7: has since been traced to the Paragon product Graphite. People

1389
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 7: targeted were journalists, human rights activists, and members of civil

1390
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 7: society across Europe and the Mediterranean, but primarily based out

1391
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:26,920
Speaker 7: of Italy. This was a zero day and zero click exploit,

1392
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:30,799
Speaker 7: meaning it both attacked of previously unknown vulnerability and required

1393
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 7: zero user interaction to infect the device. At first, the

1394
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 7: Italian government denied knowledge, but Paragon canceled two contracts with

1395
01:22:40,439 --> 01:22:45,200
Speaker 7: customers in Italy and a parliamentary oversight committee later confirmed

1396
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:49,400
Speaker 7: the Italian government was using Paragon technology for spyware attacks

1397
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:54,080
Speaker 7: against c migration activists. One thing that's interesting to me

1398
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:56,439
Speaker 7: is that we talk about this technology is being very expensive,

1399
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 7: verily individual. They have to individually target you. But then

1400
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:02,479
Speaker 7: you see ninety people on WhatsApp and you're like, that's

1401
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 7: that's a lot of people can talk about how this

1402
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,920
Speaker 7: attack was like structured and what we've learned from it.

1403
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 9: For sure, ninety people is a lot of people for

1404
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:15,719
Speaker 9: such a targeted attack, although it's you know, in terms

1405
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 9: of most malware, like most commercial maer, ninety people would

1406
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 9: be a very very small attack, right, Like it wouldn't

1407
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 9: be worth your time.

1408
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:25,479
Speaker 6: So, you know, it depends on the scale of things.

1409
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 9: I don't know what the scale of Italian civil society is, right,

1410
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:32,679
Speaker 9: but ninety people is likely, I think a small fraction

1411
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:34,879
Speaker 9: of the whole of Italian civil society.

1412
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 6: Right.

1413
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 9: But yeah, those so those people that were targeted by Paragon.

1414
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:41,880
Speaker 6: The ones that we know about.

1415
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 9: You know, one was a Italian anti fascist journalist, right,

1416
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 9: I think another there were a couple of other journalists

1417
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 9: that were covering migration issues, and you know, just a

1418
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 9: sort of a large swath across Italian civil society. So

1419
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:01,680
Speaker 9: the way they were targeted was on WhatsApp. They were

1420
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:04,000
Speaker 9: added to a group and then they were sent a

1421
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 9: malicious PDF which they didn't even have to open, and

1422
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:09,639
Speaker 9: they didn't have to approve being added to the group.

1423
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 9: But as soon as that malicious PDF was received by

1424
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:17,040
Speaker 9: their WhatsApp app, but by their WhatsApp client, the WhatsApp

1425
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:20,520
Speaker 9: client processed the PDF and it contained code which exploited

1426
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,639
Speaker 9: WhatsApp and allowed Graphite to start running. So Graphie doesn't

1427
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 9: actually install anything. To get a little bit technical, Graphite

1428
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 9: only runs in memory of the phone, right, it only

1429
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:35,120
Speaker 9: runs in the like temporary ram so to speak. Okay, right,

1430
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:37,960
Speaker 9: So rebooting the phone would have cleared out of the

1431
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:40,479
Speaker 9: graphite infection and they would have had to reinfect the person.

1432
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 6: Interesting, right in this case.

1433
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,719
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's possible that in the future Paragon will find

1434
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:50,040
Speaker 9: a way to make graphite persistent. But it does make

1435
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:53,040
Speaker 9: it more stealthy, It makes it harder to detect, it

1436
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 9: makes it harder to forensically analyze. For people like citizen

1437
01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:00,720
Speaker 9: Lab and like eff if it just runs in them sure, right,

1438
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:03,280
Speaker 9: so it kind of makes sense that they would want

1439
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:05,600
Speaker 9: to keep running it in memory, even though rebooting it

1440
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:07,960
Speaker 9: would clear out the infection because you can just reinfect

1441
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 9: the person.

1442
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,639
Speaker 7: Even like like developers like WhatsApp or like Apple might

1443
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 7: have a harder time, like yeah, realizing that they've been attacked.

1444
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 7: If it can get cleared out so quickly, I guess.

1445
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:21,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And in this case WhatsApp, they'd realized

1446
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 9: they had been attacked, they quickly figured out the pattern,

1447
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 9: and you know, to their credit, warned everybody immediately. Often,

1448
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:32,000
Speaker 9: the only way I think people will find out they've

1449
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:36,040
Speaker 9: been you know, infected by this spywere is if WhatsApp

1450
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 9: or you know, somebody else maybe Apple warned you. That's

1451
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 9: not great, but it is, but it is better than

1452
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:45,080
Speaker 9: the alternative where they just don't warn you at all.

1453
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 7: Right after the targets were notified of the spyware attack,

1454
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 7: some including journalists and migrant refugee activists in Italy, agreed

1455
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 7: to participate in a forensic analysis of Graphite by citizen Lab.

1456
01:25:57,120 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 7: They found that Paragon spyware had spread from one to

1457
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:04,280
Speaker 7: at least two other apps on the device. In April

1458
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:07,120
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty five, we got forensic confirmation of Graphite

1459
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:11,600
Speaker 7: spyware on iPhone with a zero click exploit attacking I message.

1460
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 7: Citizen Lab was able to analyze the devices of a

1461
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 7: prominent European journalist who requested to remain anonymous, and an

1462
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:21,719
Speaker 7: Italian journalist linked to the previous cluster of attacks in Italy.

1463
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:25,880
Speaker 7: iPhone is slightly harder to target than your average Android,

1464
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 7: but certainly not impervious to this sort of attack, as

1465
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 7: we've seen from these examples in Europe. To date, citizen

1466
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 7: Lab has also identified suspected Paragon deployments in Australia, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, Israel,

1467
01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 7: and Singapore. Though the encrypted messaging app signal is not

1468
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 7: mentioned in the citizen Lab reporting. Their analysis did find

1469
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:48,839
Speaker 7: that graph Fight had the capability of going after several

1470
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:52,080
Speaker 7: different messaging apps, and it's probably safe to assume that

1471
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:55,040
Speaker 7: Signal would be one of the apps that Paragon would

1472
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 7: want to extract messages from. We don't have much information

1473
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 7: about this spy where targeting Signal, possibly because Signal does

1474
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 7: not have as large as an international user base compared

1475
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 7: to other apps like WhatsApp, I Message or Telegram, despite

1476
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:15,400
Speaker 7: Signal being much more secure. So what can you do?

1477
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 7: Though Graphite might not be the total phone hijacking super

1478
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 7: spyware that the Guardian and others claim it to be,

1479
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,360
Speaker 7: it still poses a significant security threat. Some basic digital

1480
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 7: security precautions apply here. Get into a habit of regular

1481
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 7: digital cleaning. Remove unnecessary content from your device, save space.

1482
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 7: Old photos can be uploaded to an external encrypted hard

1483
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:45,600
Speaker 7: drive in question. If you really need years of messages

1484
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:49,639
Speaker 7: stored on your phone, use an encrypted chat app like Signal,

1485
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 7: which has disappearing messages, so that there isn't a large

1486
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:56,920
Speaker 7: backlog of communications that could be suddenly accessed by a

1487
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:01,360
Speaker 7: hostile actor. Be very wary of cloud back They're often

1488
01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 7: one of the least secure aspects of your digital life.

1489
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 7: Especially if they are unencrypted, And though it won't deter

1490
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,639
Speaker 7: zero click exploits, it's still best practice to avoid clicking

1491
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 7: mysterious links or downloading files and photos is sent to

1492
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 7: your phone. Another tip is to regularly reboot your phone.

1493
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 7: Contrary to claims that once your phone has been targeted

1494
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:25,560
Speaker 7: by graph its now compromised forever something called malware persistence,

1495
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 7: to our current knowledge, rebooting can wipe Paragon's exploits. It

1496
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:33,679
Speaker 7: does not appear that Paragon spyware is at the moment

1497
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 7: reboot persistent, and it seems that rebooting would actually remove

1498
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:38,919
Speaker 7: it from the phone.

1499
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 6: My reading is that rebooting it would remove.

1500
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 9: The malware from your phone until you were re exploit,

1501
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,840
Speaker 9: which so you know, if you just reboot and you

1502
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 9: don't update, or you know, the zero day isn't out yet, right,

1503
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 9: they're just going to run the exploit again.

1504
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:52,200
Speaker 11: Right.

1505
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:53,760
Speaker 6: I think it's a fair bet that they're just going

1506
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:55,960
Speaker 6: to run the exploit again, But it would be.

1507
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 12: Enough to get it off for that time, right, And

1508
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:01,720
Speaker 12: I mean, I think as far as the mitigations, my

1509
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 12: friend recommends that people like reboot their phone every every

1510
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:06,320
Speaker 12: morning when they're brushing their teeth, right, and I don't

1511
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 12: think it's a bad bit of security hygiene.

1512
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 6: If these guys are going dude, in fact.

1513
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:13,640
Speaker 9: You might as well make it, you know, more of

1514
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 9: a headache for them, right, You might as well make

1515
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:17,960
Speaker 9: it more costly to them, because there is going to

1516
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 9: be a charge to them for each time they have

1517
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:20,400
Speaker 9: to reinfect you.

1518
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:20,639
Speaker 6: Right.

1519
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 9: But yeah, it's certainly I think overblown to say that.

1520
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 9: You know, once it's on your phone, it's on your

1521
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 9: phone forever. There's you know, you just got to, you know.

1522
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:31,640
Speaker 6: Throw your a thousand dollars phone in the trash and

1523
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 6: go buy another one.

1524
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 9: Like, no, you can, you know, if you don't feel safe,

1525
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:37,720
Speaker 9: just rebooting it, right, like a factory reset, that would

1526
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 9: be the next step, right, I think that would That

1527
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 9: would most likely get rid.

1528
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 6: Of any persistence mechanisms that were installed.

1529
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:46,800
Speaker 9: I'm not familiar with any iOS mawer certainly that would

1530
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 9: survive a factory reset.

1531
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,439
Speaker 7: But probably the most important thing besides using signal is

1532
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:55,160
Speaker 7: to keep your phone software updated. That's the simplest and

1533
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:58,600
Speaker 7: best way to make it harder for spyware like graphites

1534
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,160
Speaker 7: to make it onto your phone in the first place.

1535
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:05,120
Speaker 7: Out Of date software has many more known vulnerabilities to attack.

1536
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:09,639
Speaker 7: For extra protection, enable lockdown mode on iPhone or Advanced

1537
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:11,240
Speaker 7: Protection on Android.

1538
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,120
Speaker 9: So the reason it's important to keep your phone up

1539
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:18,360
Speaker 9: to date and always install the latest security updates, even

1540
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:19,800
Speaker 9: if it's a pain in the ass, and I know

1541
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:23,759
Speaker 9: it's a pain in the ass, is because this makes

1542
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,000
Speaker 9: an attacker have to use zero day exploits. So, if

1543
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:29,759
Speaker 9: you have an old version of the software on your phone,

1544
01:30:29,760 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 9: there are known exploits. Known exploits are you know, more

1545
01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 9: or less free?

1546
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,799
Speaker 6: Right? They are already out there, they are already burned.

1547
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:42,320
Speaker 6: They do not matter, right, like the company already knows

1548
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:42,760
Speaker 6: about them.

1549
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 9: An exploit loses basically all of its value as soon

1550
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,040
Speaker 9: as you know the company knows about it and it's patched.

1551
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:51,599
Speaker 6: Right, So if you.

1552
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:53,439
Speaker 9: Have out of date software on your phone, if you

1553
01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 9: have out of data software in a computer, it changes

1554
01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:00,200
Speaker 9: the entire economics of attacking. Right, It's basically free for

1555
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 9: me to exploit your phone at this point, and I

1556
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 9: you know, I will exploit it as many times as

1557
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 9: I want, and I don't care if that exploit is burned.

1558
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,800
Speaker 9: I don't care if you find it, because again it's free, right.

1559
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 9: Zero A exploits for especially for Apple for like you know,

1560
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:19,320
Speaker 9: Android pixel phones, for for Graphene, the alternative Android OS

1561
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 9: not graphite.

1562
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 6: This has been giving me real problems lately. Zero a exploits,

1563
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 6: meaning exploits that the manufacturer does not know about and

1564
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 6: has not had a chance to patch, cost millions of

1565
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:35,599
Speaker 6: dollars for these platforms, and a zero click exploit where

1566
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:39,080
Speaker 6: where the victim doesn't have to interact with it at all. Right,

1567
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 6: I don't have to click a link, I don't have

1568
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:41,439
Speaker 6: to do something.

1569
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:44,759
Speaker 9: You just send me, you know, a PDF, an infected

1570
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:48,640
Speaker 9: PDF or a magic file, right or something, and my

1571
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:49,559
Speaker 9: phone is infected.

1572
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:53,360
Speaker 6: Those are the most expensive above all, Right, those.

1573
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:55,599
Speaker 9: Those are sort of the Those are the golden ticket

1574
01:31:55,880 --> 01:32:00,599
Speaker 9: for malware companies, right a million, These cost million dollars

1575
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 9: And if you burn it, right, if it gets caught,

1576
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:06,599
Speaker 9: like like you know what happened with WhatsApp and citizen

1577
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 9: lab in Italy, right, that's millions of dollars.

1578
01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 6: Down the drain for para con.

1579
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 9: You know, they're going to pass that on to the

1580
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:18,160
Speaker 9: Italian government to ice to whoever their contractors are. Right,

1581
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:22,080
Speaker 9: So keeping your front up today totally changes the economics

1582
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,559
Speaker 9: of running a malware attack against you, right, like anybody

1583
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 9: can run, you know, out of their office old you know,

1584
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:31,679
Speaker 9: end day, right more than zero day malware attacks against

1585
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:33,439
Speaker 9: any me, right Like, those are cheap. But if your

1586
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:36,679
Speaker 9: stuff is patched, no, it's gonna it's it's It totally

1587
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:38,479
Speaker 9: changes the entire game. And you've got to be doing

1588
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 9: really good work for ICE to to want to burn

1589
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 9: that much money on you.

1590
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:46,040
Speaker 7: All these tips can make it considerably harder and more importantly,

1591
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 7: extremely expensive for this spy work to get onto your device.

1592
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:54,680
Speaker 7: These exploits could only be deployed against individual targets, and

1593
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 7: that gets quite expensive. Just because ICE could theoretically hack

1594
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 7: your phone, that doesn't mean that your phone is necessarily

1595
01:33:02,080 --> 01:33:05,599
Speaker 7: at a high risk of being hacked by ICE. Who

1596
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:08,920
Speaker 7: are the possible targets for graphites bywear Who is at

1597
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 7: higher risk? Journalists who report on ICE and immigration, people

1598
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:17,280
Speaker 7: who work for immigration advocacy organizations, immigration lawyers, as well

1599
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:21,439
Speaker 7: as high profile activists. It goes without saying that anything

1600
01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:24,679
Speaker 7: you do on your phone or on the Internet carries

1601
01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:38,200
Speaker 7: a level of inherent risk. We'll close this episode with

1602
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:42,080
Speaker 7: a longer segment from my interview with Cooper discussing who's

1603
01:33:42,120 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 7: at the most risk of ICE using Paragon software and

1604
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 7: more of Cooper's recommended surveillance mitigation practices. This is not

1605
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:53,719
Speaker 7: something that can be deployed at a protest and sweep

1606
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:56,719
Speaker 7: up you know, thousands of people. This does go after

1607
01:33:56,840 --> 01:33:59,439
Speaker 7: like individuals because of its cost and the way that

1608
01:33:59,479 --> 01:34:02,120
Speaker 7: it needs to be deployed. Yeah, who are the people

1609
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:04,840
Speaker 7: that you would say are most at risk of this?

1610
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:06,479
Speaker 3: Like is this here like your.

1611
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:09,800
Speaker 7: Local like you know, food not bombs organizer, or like

1612
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:10,960
Speaker 7: an immigration lawyer?

1613
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:11,639
Speaker 6: Like? Right?

1614
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 7: Who should be concerned? I guess and and take take

1615
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:16,080
Speaker 7: this threat like more seriously?

1616
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:23,000
Speaker 9: Definitely, I think people who should be concerned are I mean,

1617
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:25,360
Speaker 9: you hit the nail on the head, right. The people

1618
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:28,160
Speaker 9: that should be concerned about this are people who have

1619
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,439
Speaker 9: you know, been a special pain in.

1620
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:34,559
Speaker 6: The ass for ICE and basic heure.

1621
01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 9: Right, you know, people who might be under HSI investigation. Right,

1622
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:44,799
Speaker 9: people who you know have been threatened by the president

1623
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:47,599
Speaker 9: or by Pam Bondi you know specifically, right, like had

1624
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 9: their name called out specifically, right, People who are you know,

1625
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 9: very loud, very active, right, like the sort of leaders

1626
01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 9: what's the term tall poppies?

1627
01:34:58,439 --> 01:34:58,559
Speaker 11: Right?

1628
01:34:58,640 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 9: Like the people that are really have their heads sticking

1629
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:04,559
Speaker 9: out right in a way that's like very public and

1630
01:35:04,680 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 9: very well known. If you have risen to the level

1631
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:10,920
Speaker 9: where like Calm Homan knows your name personally, right, that

1632
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:14,360
Speaker 9: makes it a pretty good chance that you know, you

1633
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:16,759
Speaker 9: might become a target with this, right, Like that's that's

1634
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:17,759
Speaker 9: who we're talking about.

1635
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:19,680
Speaker 7: Well, and like as we've seen in Italy, like that

1636
01:35:19,760 --> 01:35:23,919
Speaker 7: can that can include like like anti fascist journalists, Yeah, definitely,

1637
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:28,320
Speaker 7: people who work for like migrant human rights organizations, yes,

1638
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:32,479
Speaker 7: high profile activists. And I think like there's a real

1639
01:35:32,520 --> 01:35:34,519
Speaker 7: concern with with you know, trying to comprise the phone

1640
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:36,960
Speaker 7: of journalists because of how journalists like talk to sources.

1641
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:39,759
Speaker 7: The journalists might have information about like other people besides

1642
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:42,479
Speaker 7: the journalists on their phone, and they may be targeting

1643
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 7: through the journalists, but trying to get after other people

1644
01:35:44,840 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 7: who they're talking to. Same thing with like immigration lawyers,

1645
01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:50,880
Speaker 7: and like there is real concern about harm spreading from

1646
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:53,400
Speaker 7: those factors. And I think that's why if you are

1647
01:35:53,439 --> 01:35:55,640
Speaker 7: in those sorts of like roles that like like a

1648
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:58,519
Speaker 7: human rights organization, a journalist, or a lawyer, you need

1649
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:02,680
Speaker 7: to be like extra careful about keeping your phone updated

1650
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:07,400
Speaker 7: regularly engaging in like digital hygiene, having disappearing messages, maybe

1651
01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 7: putting on lockdown mode onto your iPhone, be very ware

1652
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 7: of being added to mysterious group chats. These are just

1653
01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:19,120
Speaker 7: general practices that are I think worthwhile to like engage in,

1654
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 7: whether or not you're actually gonna get tuck targeted by.

1655
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:24,839
Speaker 9: This, absolutely, and I want to especially single out lockdown

1656
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:29,440
Speaker 9: mode there, Like, we are not aware of any infections

1657
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:35,120
Speaker 9: of anymour right, Pegasus, Graphite Right, any others that have

1658
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 9: managed to successfully infect an iPhone on lockdown mode. So

1659
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 9: if you are worried about this, lockdown mode is the

1660
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 9: single most effective thing you can do to protect yourself

1661
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:48,000
Speaker 9: against this mour right, is go turn on lockdown mod.

1662
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:48,919
Speaker 6: If you're on Android.

1663
01:36:49,160 --> 01:36:51,840
Speaker 7: I think Google calls it advanced protection mode.

1664
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, advanced protection mode.

1665
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:58,600
Speaker 9: So advanced Protection mode used to be not very comprehensive,

1666
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 9: and I think like with the new Android update with

1667
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 9: Android sixteen that came out, you know, I think like

1668
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:08,840
Speaker 9: last week or something, it's now much more comparable to

1669
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:12,840
Speaker 9: lockdown mode. So you know, I highly recommend churning that

1670
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:13,879
Speaker 9: on if you're on Android.

1671
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:15,799
Speaker 7: All my homies love lockdown mode.

1672
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:19,760
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, that is the number one protection right.

1673
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:24,000
Speaker 9: The other The other thing I strongly recommend always and

1674
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:26,800
Speaker 9: I be this drum like every day is turn on

1675
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:30,040
Speaker 9: disappearing messages. If you're on Signal or WhatsApp, go turn

1676
01:37:30,080 --> 01:37:33,280
Speaker 9: on disappearing messages, right because this is good against you

1677
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:35,040
Speaker 9: know a lot of different things, right, Like this is

1678
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:38,679
Speaker 9: good against celebrate as well as pigass, as well as

1679
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 9: grab me. Right, Like if the messages are gone by

1680
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:45,080
Speaker 9: the time you get infected, there's no way to recover those, right,

1681
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,360
Speaker 9: You're minimizing your footprint. Right, ye, go delete old chats

1682
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:50,479
Speaker 9: right like if you if you get a second right,

1683
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:53,120
Speaker 9: like we've all Google has trained us to all be

1684
01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:56,160
Speaker 9: digital hoarders, right and keep depending How will you are

1685
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:57,360
Speaker 9: twenty years of email.

1686
01:37:57,120 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 6: Ten years whatever?

1687
01:37:58,160 --> 01:37:58,280
Speaker 4: Right?

1688
01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:03,080
Speaker 9: Never never delete? Right, And that's don't ignore them, ignore Google.

1689
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:05,240
Speaker 9: Google doesn't want you to delete things because they want

1690
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 9: to use all that data for selling you ads.

1691
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:09,320
Speaker 6: Right, delete everything.

1692
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 7: I want more underwater data set.

1693
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:15,559
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, exactly, delete everything. Delete your files, you know, like,

1694
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:18,120
Speaker 6: get rid of those old group chats, right, get rid

1695
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:19,799
Speaker 6: of those old chats that you don't need anymore.

1696
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:22,080
Speaker 7: You need to be like that lawyer in death notes.

1697
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 7: Delete yes, delete.

1698
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:27,799
Speaker 6: The death note referenced.

1699
01:38:31,120 --> 01:38:35,160
Speaker 7: Do you wanna plug Citizen Labs slash EFF and tell

1700
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:37,599
Speaker 7: people where to find both your work and then also

1701
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:41,519
Speaker 7: other people who are doing research into graphite And like,

1702
01:38:41,560 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 7: you know, if you've been suspected of being targeted by

1703
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:47,680
Speaker 7: you know, maybe a notification how you can participate in

1704
01:38:47,720 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 7: forensic analysis to help everyone be more secure against this

1705
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:50,920
Speaker 7: in the future.

1706
01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure.

1707
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:55,599
Speaker 9: So one of the best ways to find out you've

1708
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:59,240
Speaker 9: been targeted by state sponsor malware is to get a

1709
01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 9: notification from Apple or Google or WhatsApp or some other

1710
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 9: large company that you have been targeted by state sponsored malware. Typically,

1711
01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:10,599
Speaker 9: these notifications don't contain much more information than we believe

1712
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 9: you've been targeted by a nation of state or by

1713
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:15,000
Speaker 9: state sponsor maware. But if you do get one of

1714
01:39:15,000 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 9: those notifications, take it very seriously, you know, reach out

1715
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:22,639
Speaker 9: to access now or to EFF or to Citizen Lab

1716
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:25,439
Speaker 9: and let us know, right, and we will.

1717
01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:26,680
Speaker 6: Help figure out what's going on.

1718
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:30,200
Speaker 9: Right, Like this is this is the number one indicator,

1719
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:33,320
Speaker 9: right because like this malware is usually fairly stealthy, right,

1720
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:36,160
Speaker 9: Like it's not actually, but you know, I don't know

1721
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:41,479
Speaker 9: flashing you're infected on your screen, right, But yeah, citizen

1722
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:45,040
Speaker 9: Lab is always doing amazing work. I'm a fellow there,

1723
01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:46,880
Speaker 9: so I get to work with them sometimes, which is

1724
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:51,120
Speaker 9: very exciting. They are based out of the Monk School

1725
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:54,599
Speaker 9: of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto and their

1726
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 9: website is CitizenLab dot org, where you can find a

1727
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,960
Speaker 9: lot of really excellent research on the types of threat

1728
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:01,519
Speaker 9: the target civil society.

1729
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:05,800
Speaker 7: Er erm, I have citizen Lab dot c A. Oh,

1730
01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:06,839
Speaker 7: but I'm Canadian.

1731
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:11,120
Speaker 6: You are probably correct. I can never remember.

1732
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:13,639
Speaker 7: The as a Canadian. I was very I was very

1733
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:16,960
Speaker 7: put off by you erasing our nation's history, of our

1734
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:20,120
Speaker 7: of our coveted dot c A. We love, we love

1735
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:20,800
Speaker 7: our dot c A.

1736
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:22,880
Speaker 6: I am not trying to start a war with Canada.

1737
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:26,920
Speaker 7: Uh well, many many people are, so.

1738
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 6: Listen, I'm firmly on the side of Canada and the

1739
01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:32,960
Speaker 6: war against Canada. Okay, please take me in lease.

1740
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, your solidarity is a is a noted So citizen

1741
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 7: lab dot.

1742
01:40:39,360 --> 01:40:41,800
Speaker 6: Org actually redirection cism Lab dot c So we were

1743
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 6: both right there you go, or you were maybe more right.

1744
01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 9: So yeah, citizen Law and yeah, they're they're really fantastic,

1745
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:51,320
Speaker 9: A lot of really good research going on there at

1746
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 9: e FF dot org, the Electronic Frontier Foundation where US

1747
01:40:54,840 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 9: based nonprofit been around for thirty five years defending civil

1748
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:02,880
Speaker 9: liberties as they intersect with technology. So a lot of

1749
01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:05,320
Speaker 9: a lot of free speech work, a lot of you know,

1750
01:41:05,400 --> 01:41:08,920
Speaker 9: privacy and Fourth Amendment work. And we also have a

1751
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:12,280
Speaker 9: really excellent set of guides called the Surveillance Self Defense Guides,

1752
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:14,759
Speaker 9: which are at SSD dot e FF dot.

1753
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:16,840
Speaker 6: Org, which I highly recommend people go and check out.

1754
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:21,439
Speaker 9: It's the most sort of evergreen guide for defending yourself online.

1755
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 9: A lot of the problem with the online security guides

1756
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 9: that they get out of date very quickly, and we

1757
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:28,120
Speaker 9: have a totally whole, full time person dedicated to making

1758
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:29,720
Speaker 9: sure that our guides stay up to date.

1759
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:31,479
Speaker 7: I'll put a link in the description.

1760
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:32,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we're a nonprofit.

1761
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:35,400
Speaker 9: Members support a nonprofit, so you know, if you like

1762
01:41:35,439 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 9: to work, throw us a few bucks. We work for

1763
01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 9: tips and yeah. Are the chief places that I'm at

1764
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:42,280
Speaker 9: that I want to plug? Only other thing to plug?

1765
01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:44,280
Speaker 9: I guess you can follow me on social media. I'm

1766
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 9: at cooperq dot com on blue Sky and cooper q

1767
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:52,240
Speaker 9: at Masto dot hackers dot town on Mastodon.

1768
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 7: Hell yeah, yeah, all right, well, thank you so much.

1769
01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:58,559
Speaker 7: Thank you for the work you do at a e

1770
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 7: FF and Citizen Lab.

1771
01:42:00,479 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 6: Thank you.

1772
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:03,040
Speaker 7: Yeah. I guess we should alwas throw away our phone

1773
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:05,439
Speaker 7: since there's no way to use our phone safely anymore.

1774
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:08,479
Speaker 6: I mean, throwing away our phones isn't a terrible idea.

1775
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 7: That's why I bad. You know what I could be

1776
01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:11,800
Speaker 7: onto something I.

1777
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:15,519
Speaker 6: Think for our own sanity just in general.

1778
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:17,920
Speaker 7: No, I think they're making us more connected, and I

1779
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:20,439
Speaker 7: think they're making us more stable.

1780
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,479
Speaker 9: They are making us more connected, that's for sure. In

1781
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:27,200
Speaker 9: that I get five billion notifications per day, if that's

1782
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 9: what connected means.

1783
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:51,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, all right.

1784
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:49,360
Speaker 13: Hello everyone, and welcome to say it could happen here.

1785
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:53,000
Speaker 13: My name is Dan el Kerd. I'm a writer, analyst,

1786
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:56,960
Speaker 13: and researcher of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate

1787
01:42:56,960 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 13: professor of political science and a senior non resident fellow

1788
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:03,600
Speaker 13: at the Arab Center Washington. What a wild time in

1789
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 13: the Middle East? Am I right? I mean not to

1790
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:09,599
Speaker 13: be flippant, that's putting it mildly. Today before I recorded,

1791
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,200
Speaker 13: Israel bombed the capital of Katar, Doha, in an assassination

1792
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:16,960
Speaker 13: attempt against Tamas leadership. They bombed in a residential area

1793
01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:22,120
Speaker 13: in the middle of the city, surrounded by nurseries, schools, businesses,

1794
01:43:22,640 --> 01:43:24,920
Speaker 13: and you know people. I have a lot to say

1795
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 13: about Arab Israeli relations historically and what's happening on that

1796
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:31,559
Speaker 13: front today and the sometimes shared interests of Arab regimes

1797
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 13: with the Israeli state. So stay tuned for a deep

1798
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 13: dive episode on that topic soon. Today, I want to

1799
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:40,280
Speaker 13: talk about the issue of Palestinian statehood. It's been in

1800
01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:42,840
Speaker 13: the news quite a bit these days. A number of

1801
01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 13: different countries have expressed a willingness to recognize Palestine as

1802
01:43:46,439 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 13: a state. In July, for example, France announced it would

1803
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:52,400
Speaker 13: recognize Palestinian statehood, and it was soon joined by a

1804
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:56,639
Speaker 13: number of other countries, Canada, Malta, Belgium, the UK. Kir Starmer,

1805
01:43:56,680 --> 01:43:58,920
Speaker 13: the Prime Minister of the UK, actually made it into

1806
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:02,080
Speaker 13: an explicit threat. Basically, we will recognize the state of

1807
01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:05,400
Speaker 13: Palestine if the Israelis don't agree to a ceasefire. I'd

1808
01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:08,000
Speaker 13: like to underscore the absurdity of that comment for a second,

1809
01:44:08,040 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 13: but we'll get.

1810
01:44:08,960 --> 01:44:10,439
Speaker 7: Back to that one.

1811
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:13,440
Speaker 13: For all these countries, they say that they are recognizing

1812
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:16,920
Speaker 13: Palestine as a state because they desire a two state solution.

1813
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:21,599
Speaker 13: Their condition for recognizing Palestine as a state also includes

1814
01:44:22,040 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 13: Hamas being completely out of the picture quote demilitarized in

1815
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:29,920
Speaker 13: the language of French President Macron, as NPR reported back

1816
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:33,960
Speaker 13: in August first, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Karney also said

1817
01:44:34,040 --> 01:44:37,559
Speaker 13: that the Palestinian authority needs to hold elections in this scenario,

1818
01:44:37,880 --> 01:44:41,360
Speaker 13: but one that excludes Hamas. So all of these recent

1819
01:44:41,400 --> 01:44:45,439
Speaker 13: announcements are coalescing around the same conditions. I guess the

1820
01:44:45,479 --> 01:44:48,519
Speaker 13: big deal here is that these are major powers, France

1821
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 13: and the UK who have veto power in the UN

1822
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 13: Security Council, for example. So the plan to recognize Palestinian

1823
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:57,639
Speaker 13: statehood has gotten a lot of press and attention.

1824
01:44:58,439 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 6: But the thing is a one.

1825
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:03,200
Speaker 13: Hundred and forty five countries already recognize Palestine as a state.

1826
01:45:03,720 --> 01:45:07,320
Speaker 13: Palestine was given observer status at the UN in twenty twelve,

1827
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:10,280
Speaker 13: and the Palestinian authority has been working for quite some

1828
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:14,080
Speaker 13: time to get more recognition internationally and to be able

1829
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:16,840
Speaker 13: to use the international legal system to advocate for themselves.

1830
01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 13: So what does this recognition actually mean a state that

1831
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:28,080
Speaker 13: is occupied entirely by another and is currently undergoing ethnic

1832
01:45:28,080 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 13: cleansing at different levels of severity in all parts of

1833
01:45:30,880 --> 01:45:35,639
Speaker 13: its territories. What state is actually being recognized here? What

1834
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:39,240
Speaker 13: does statehood mean in the context of occupation and ethnic cleansing.

1835
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 13: It might help to go back to the Oscilocords that

1836
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:45,920
Speaker 13: were signed by the Palestine Liberation Organization the PLO, and

1837
01:45:45,960 --> 01:45:48,479
Speaker 13: the State of Israel. This was the first time that

1838
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:52,080
Speaker 13: Israel and the Palestinians agreed to something directly. A stipulation

1839
01:45:52,160 --> 01:45:56,160
Speaker 13: of the OSCOLO Accords was mutual recognition, meaning Israel would

1840
01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:59,360
Speaker 13: recognize that the PLO was the representative of the Palestinian people,

1841
01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:03,200
Speaker 13: and the PLO would recognize Israel's right to exist. This

1842
01:46:03,400 --> 01:46:07,160
Speaker 13: was later criticized as uneven by Palsaidinian negotiators such as

1843
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:11,720
Speaker 13: Hannan Ashroi, because the PLO was already internationally recognized as

1844
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:15,639
Speaker 13: the representative of the Palestinian people. So her argument more

1845
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:19,520
Speaker 13: recently has been they accepted Israel's control for getting recognition

1846
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 13: in return. The US ambassador to Israel at the time,

1847
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:25,559
Speaker 13: Daniel Kurtzer, concurred with that assessment, saying to The New

1848
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 13: York Times that the OSCLO agreement was full of holes.

1849
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:32,200
Speaker 13: The mutual recognition was asymmetrical, and that was to hurt

1850
01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:35,040
Speaker 13: the Palestinian negotiating position for years to come.

1851
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:35,879
Speaker 7: End quote.

1852
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:39,519
Speaker 13: Nevertheless, the Osclo Accords of nineteen ninety three are widely

1853
01:46:39,600 --> 01:46:42,360
Speaker 13: understood to be the attempt to bring about a two

1854
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:45,759
Speaker 13: state solution of some kind, and it's been the framework

1855
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:49,320
Speaker 13: that many international powers have paid lip service to ever since.

1856
01:46:50,160 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 13: By the way, September twenty twenty three marked the thirty

1857
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:56,040
Speaker 13: year anniversary of the accords, we all know what happened

1858
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:59,360
Speaker 13: October seventh, just a few days later. The thing is,

1859
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:04,240
Speaker 13: the also framework didn't say two states. The Alsco Accords

1860
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:08,120
Speaker 13: just said that they would continue negotiations on some eventual

1861
01:47:08,320 --> 01:47:12,640
Speaker 13: final framework. Now Palestinians wanted a state, of course, and

1862
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:16,920
Speaker 13: the Israelis were committing to negotiations. So the Palestinians were

1863
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:19,120
Speaker 13: told to start building up a sort of state, a

1864
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:22,759
Speaker 13: quasi state in parts of the occupied territories, to start

1865
01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:26,120
Speaker 13: governing themselves in particular ways, and this was called the

1866
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:29,599
Speaker 13: Palestinian National Authority. I talked about this at more length

1867
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:32,320
Speaker 13: than the episode for it could happen here titled Palestine's

1868
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 13: Stolen Future. So if you're interested, you can listen to

1869
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:39,519
Speaker 13: that one. The Also Accords split the occupied territories into

1870
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:43,400
Speaker 13: three parts, Area A, B, and C, all of which

1871
01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:46,599
Speaker 13: remained under the Israeli occupation's control, but still there were

1872
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:49,439
Speaker 13: some differences between them. In Area A, which is less

1873
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:51,439
Speaker 13: than twenty percent of the land, that's where a lot

1874
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 13: of the urban centers are, the Palestinian Authority was allowed

1875
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:57,680
Speaker 13: to function, build and run institutions of governance. So if

1876
01:47:57,680 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 13: you go to Ramalo, for example, you'll see big bil

1877
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:04,719
Speaker 13: buildings with Palstinian Authority insignia. An Area B the Palstein

1878
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:08,080
Speaker 13: and Authority had partial access, and an Area C, which

1879
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:11,760
Speaker 13: is the majority of the territories, the Palstien Authority was

1880
01:48:11,920 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 13: and continues to not be allowed to function, But the

1881
01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 13: PA did use this as an opportunity to create the

1882
01:48:18,160 --> 01:48:23,040
Speaker 13: basis of a state, creating ministries, beginning of parliament, writing laws,

1883
01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:29,520
Speaker 13: and importantly creating security forces. Throughout all this, Israel maintained

1884
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:34,560
Speaker 13: military control over the entire territory, and Israeli settlements continued

1885
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:38,519
Speaker 13: to expand. So what the Israeli has got out of

1886
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:41,920
Speaker 13: the Also Accords was they got out of providing certain

1887
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:45,840
Speaker 13: services and they let Palestinians do that for themselves. But

1888
01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:48,800
Speaker 13: they didn't actually seed meaningful control over any part of

1889
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:53,920
Speaker 13: the territory. Now it's important to pause here. An occupying

1890
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 13: force is obligated under international law to provide services to

1891
01:48:58,400 --> 01:49:02,000
Speaker 13: the population it occupies and to return the land to

1892
01:49:02,080 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 13: the sovereign the occupy people as soon as possible, As

1893
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:10,719
Speaker 13: the European Society of International Law notes, quote, the nineteen

1894
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:14,719
Speaker 13: oh seven Haigue Regulations, the nineteen forty nine Fourth Geneva Convention,

1895
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:18,600
Speaker 13: and modern body of international human rights instruments contain a

1896
01:49:18,680 --> 01:49:23,480
Speaker 13: number of provisions which protect the lives, property, natural resources, institutions,

1897
01:49:23,880 --> 01:49:27,280
Speaker 13: civil life, fundamental human rights and latent sovereignty of the

1898
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:30,840
Speaker 13: people under occupation, while curbing the security powers of the

1899
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:35,840
Speaker 13: occupying power to those genuinely required to safely administer the occupation.

1900
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 13: And if the occupier occupies indefinitely, then it's not really

1901
01:49:43,360 --> 01:49:46,679
Speaker 13: an occupation anymore, is it. Again? As the European Society

1902
01:49:46,680 --> 01:49:50,680
Speaker 13: of International Law notes, the concept of prolonged occupation may

1903
01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:53,879
Speaker 13: well become a legal guise that masks a de facto

1904
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:58,200
Speaker 13: colonial exercise and defeats the transient and exceptional nature which

1905
01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:02,600
Speaker 13: occupations are intended to be end quote, but that is

1906
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:06,200
Speaker 13: exactly what has continued before and after the Ascol Accords.

1907
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:19,639
Speaker 13: The Asco Accords never ended, the occupation never gave back

1908
01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:23,640
Speaker 13: land to Palestinians. All it did is strip the occupier

1909
01:50:24,000 --> 01:50:26,800
Speaker 13: of its responsibility under the guise of working towards a

1910
01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:30,599
Speaker 13: two state solution. And really, anybody who has looked at

1911
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:33,439
Speaker 13: what has transpired honestly would say that there has always

1912
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:36,360
Speaker 13: been a mismatch between what the Israelis wanted and we're

1913
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:39,400
Speaker 13: willing to give, and what the Palestinians wanted. Even to

1914
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:41,880
Speaker 13: the degree of what both sides meant when they set

1915
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,439
Speaker 13: state has always been mismatched. So I'll explain what I mean.

1916
01:50:46,040 --> 01:50:50,840
Speaker 13: Palestinians have always wanted a legitimate state. What does that mean. Well,

1917
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:55,440
Speaker 13: a state has sovereignty, It has control over its own territory,

1918
01:50:55,760 --> 01:50:57,880
Speaker 13: it has the monopoly on the use of violence within

1919
01:50:57,920 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 13: its boundaries. That's the most basic definition of state sovereignty.

1920
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:06,200
Speaker 13: Israel never intended for any of that. Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin,

1921
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:09,000
Speaker 13: who signed the Oscio Accords, in his final address to

1922
01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:11,759
Speaker 13: the Kanesset before he was assassinated by a right wing Israeli,

1923
01:51:12,320 --> 01:51:15,280
Speaker 13: clearly stated that what was on offer for the Palestinians

1924
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:19,600
Speaker 13: was something quote less than a state. Yitzak Rabin was

1925
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:22,719
Speaker 13: in the Labor Party. But again, if people are being honest,

1926
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 13: this is a bipartisan position Israel. Israeli political leaders have

1927
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:30,639
Speaker 13: at best offered something less than a state, and at

1928
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:35,840
Speaker 13: worst offered surrender or annihilation. I'm not being hyperbolic here.

1929
01:51:36,479 --> 01:51:39,559
Speaker 13: Bezdals Mootrich of the Religious Zionist Party, who is now

1930
01:51:39,560 --> 01:51:43,719
Speaker 13: the Finance Minister, has for years actively promoted his quote

1931
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:47,320
Speaker 13: decisive plan, which has become the policy of the state today.

1932
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:51,599
Speaker 13: The plan proposes that one any Palestinian who was willing

1933
01:51:51,640 --> 01:51:55,360
Speaker 13: and able to relinquish the fulfillment of his national aspirations

1934
01:51:55,720 --> 01:51:58,520
Speaker 13: would be able to stay and live as an individual

1935
01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:01,600
Speaker 13: in the Jewish State, not as a citizen. And two,

1936
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:05,680
Speaker 13: any Palestinian who is unwilling or unable to relinquish his

1937
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 13: national aspirations will receive assistance from them to immigrate to

1938
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:14,240
Speaker 13: one of the Arab countries. So essentially, what he's saying

1939
01:52:14,320 --> 01:52:17,160
Speaker 13: is Palestinians have to either give up and be a

1940
01:52:17,240 --> 01:52:23,280
Speaker 13: subject or leave, surrender or transfer. The US as a

1941
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:27,120
Speaker 13: supposed mediator and third party has not really straight from that.

1942
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:31,560
Speaker 13: Sovereignty has always been approximated with self governance from the

1943
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:35,479
Speaker 13: United States perspective. Jared Kushner, for example, in his Peace

1944
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:38,559
Speaker 13: to Prosperity plan, which was the lynchpin of Donald Trump's

1945
01:52:38,560 --> 01:52:42,160
Speaker 13: Israel Palestine proposer back in the first Trump administration, invokes

1946
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:45,599
Speaker 13: the idea of sovereignty, only to insist that it should

1947
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:48,880
Speaker 13: no longer be the crux of negotiations. According to the

1948
01:52:48,920 --> 01:52:53,000
Speaker 13: Trump administration quote, the notion that sovereignty is a static

1949
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:57,280
Speaker 13: and consistently defined term has been an unnecessary stumbling block

1950
01:52:57,439 --> 01:53:01,960
Speaker 13: in past negotiations, and this amorphous concept is best put

1951
01:53:02,040 --> 01:53:07,519
Speaker 13: aside to focus on pragmatic and operational concerns. Ironically, the

1952
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 13: liberal version of a two state solution espoused by every

1953
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 13: democratic administration, essentially envisions the same endpoint, a Palestinian entity

1954
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:22,360
Speaker 13: demilitarized and subordinate to Israel's economic and security concerns. But

1955
01:53:22,880 --> 01:53:25,840
Speaker 13: Palestinians want a state. They want a state in the

1956
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 13: full meaning of the term, and that state has to

1957
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:31,479
Speaker 13: be legitimate, not only internationally, but in the eyes of

1958
01:53:31,479 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 13: the Palestinian people. Political scientist Tanya Alberts argues that sovereignty

1959
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:39,639
Speaker 13: is an identity of states. It's constituted by the norms

1960
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:43,639
Speaker 13: of international society. States are recognized as sovereign if they

1961
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:47,400
Speaker 13: achieve self determination for a group of people. The fact that,

1962
01:53:47,479 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 13: on rare occasions, the international system has refused to recognize

1963
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:55,280
Speaker 13: certain political entities as states, specifically because they had violated

1964
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:58,880
Speaker 13: the right of self determination, highlights how we now think

1965
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:02,960
Speaker 13: of political authority. So, for example, the international community did

1966
01:54:03,000 --> 01:54:06,120
Speaker 13: not recognize Rhodesia as a state because it violated the

1967
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:09,240
Speaker 13: self determination of the black majority in that country, even

1968
01:54:09,280 --> 01:54:13,160
Speaker 13: though white people in Rhodesia did exercise material control over

1969
01:54:13,160 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 13: that country. In other words, the state's right to sovereignty

1970
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:21,599
Speaker 13: must flow from some sort of legitimacy. A state rules

1971
01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:26,800
Speaker 13: because society approves. This doesn't mean that every sovereign state

1972
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:31,080
Speaker 13: is democratic, but simply that states derive their status from

1973
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:34,680
Speaker 13: the citizens buy in, and because the state claims to

1974
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:38,120
Speaker 13: represent the will of maybe a certain ethnic or civic identity,

1975
01:54:38,520 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 13: it's understood as an executor of the law enacted by

1976
01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:45,640
Speaker 13: the people who are sovereign. So sovereignty then should also

1977
01:54:45,680 --> 01:54:49,800
Speaker 13: be understood as the ability of people who consider themselves

1978
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:53,080
Speaker 13: of that place to exercise control over territory and have

1979
01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:57,560
Speaker 13: a say in its future. Populist movements, secessionist movements, and

1980
01:54:57,640 --> 01:55:01,240
Speaker 13: other movements that challenge a certain state, sometimes popular sovereignty,

1981
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:05,640
Speaker 13: legitimizing their assertions with reference to their historical legacy or

1982
01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:10,200
Speaker 13: continuity or indigenity, even in the absence of a representative state.

1983
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 13: And Palestinians are one such group. They've struggled not merely

1984
01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:19,000
Speaker 13: for the right to exist, but also for political control

1985
01:55:19,640 --> 01:55:23,200
Speaker 13: in state institutions that represent and uphold their national identity.

1986
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:28,880
Speaker 13: And the legitimacy of their sovereignty claim stems not only

1987
01:55:28,960 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 13: from their long ties to the territory, but also from

1988
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:36,080
Speaker 13: the fact that they have long conceived themselves as a nation,

1989
01:55:36,840 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 13: a nation that has never ceded its demand for a

1990
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:44,240
Speaker 13: sovereign state with the promise of subjugation, subsistence, or integration

1991
01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:49,240
Speaker 13: into another state. So, to make us very clear, Palestinians

1992
01:55:49,280 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 13: want the state that is sovereign. They certainly don't mean

1993
01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:57,000
Speaker 13: self governance. And Palestinians, after thirty years of OSLO that

1994
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:00,480
Speaker 13: has only left them worse off, certainly don't want to

1995
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:04,640
Speaker 13: go back to trying the same process again. So when

1996
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:07,920
Speaker 13: these countries recognize Palestine as a state as a way

1997
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:12,200
Speaker 13: of pretending to pressure for the two state solution. They're

1998
01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:15,000
Speaker 13: not saying anything about what happens to the territories that

1999
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 13: are currently being wiped out, like literally all of Gaza

2000
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:21,760
Speaker 13: and even parts of the West Bank. They're not saying

2001
01:56:21,800 --> 01:56:26,440
Speaker 13: anything about Israeli settlements, They're not saying anything about reparations.

2002
01:56:26,840 --> 01:56:30,200
Speaker 13: And because of that, some Palestinians have argued that these

2003
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:34,760
Speaker 13: statehood recognition things are a cynical ploy to distract from

2004
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:38,520
Speaker 13: the inaction of these countries on addressing the genocide in Gaza,

2005
01:56:38,640 --> 01:56:42,840
Speaker 13: basically pretending to act without actually doing anything. Palestinian analyst

2006
01:56:42,920 --> 01:56:46,360
Speaker 13: Main Nobani said this to NPR recently. Quote in the end,

2007
01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:50,720
Speaker 13: simply recognizing Palestinian statehood is a low cost option. It

2008
01:56:50,760 --> 01:56:54,560
Speaker 13: may placate that domestic audience demanding action, while doing very

2009
01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:57,920
Speaker 13: little to actually change the situation on the ground end quote.

2010
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:03,080
Speaker 13: Others have argued even further that not only are these

2011
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:08,400
Speaker 13: declarations of recognition a cynical ploy to distract, but they

2012
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:11,840
Speaker 13: may even be a sort of trap. Legal expert and

2013
01:57:11,880 --> 01:57:15,800
Speaker 13: professor nouraa At and international lawyer and professor shad Haamuri

2014
01:57:16,160 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 13: wrote for Jidlia on this, which I'll link in the

2015
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,440
Speaker 13: show notes. They argue effectively that the best thing to

2016
01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:24,120
Speaker 13: come out of this is a challenge maybe to the US.

2017
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:25,000
Speaker 7: Quote.

2018
01:57:25,360 --> 01:57:29,480
Speaker 13: The greatest promise of this renewed statehood bid, the most

2019
01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:32,440
Speaker 13: recent push being in twenty eleven twenty twelve, is a

2020
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:36,080
Speaker 13: united front to challenge US and transigent support for Israel

2021
01:57:36,280 --> 01:57:41,480
Speaker 13: end quote. However, they also point out that quote states

2022
01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:44,240
Speaker 13: do not need to recognize Palestine to end the occupation,

2023
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:48,040
Speaker 13: to end the genocide and advance Palestinian self determination. They

2024
01:57:48,160 --> 01:57:53,120
Speaker 13: argue that states quote need decisive will to impose arms

2025
01:57:53,120 --> 01:57:56,280
Speaker 13: and energy embargoes and trade with an investment in Israel

2026
01:57:56,920 --> 01:58:00,800
Speaker 13: unseated from the UN, hold Israeli war criminals and complicit

2027
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 13: corporations accountable in their national courts, and arrest Prime Minister

2028
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:18,120
Speaker 13: Benjamin Nataniehu in compliance with the ICC's arrest warrant end quote.

2029
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:23,960
Speaker 13: So the bit for statehood doesn't solve problems. It only

2030
01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 13: gives states the fig leaf to actually delay solving problems.

2031
01:58:28,200 --> 01:58:31,800
Speaker 13: On top of that, it risks empowering illegitimate and corrupt

2032
01:58:31,880 --> 01:58:36,440
Speaker 13: Palestinian leadership in any future negotiations. I'm talking a leadership

2033
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:40,040
Speaker 13: that includes Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who eighty percent of

2034
01:58:40,080 --> 01:58:43,600
Speaker 13: Palestinians polled said they want him to resign and an

2035
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:47,680
Speaker 13: institution like the Palestinian Authority that only fifteen percent of

2036
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:51,280
Speaker 13: Palestinians are satisfied with, according to the latest polling as

2037
01:58:51,560 --> 01:58:55,560
Speaker 13: at the Hamorine quote. The terms of the High Level

2038
01:58:55,640 --> 01:58:58,959
Speaker 13: International Conference for the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine,

2039
01:58:59,040 --> 01:59:01,880
Speaker 13: convened in New York, led by France and the Kingdom

2040
01:59:01,920 --> 01:59:05,960
Speaker 13: of Saudi Arabia confirm these risks. The Palestinian Authority is

2041
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:10,360
Speaker 13: glorified in at least seven clauses entrusted with governing the state,

2042
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:15,080
Speaker 13: effectively paving the way for a police state alongside a

2043
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:19,280
Speaker 13: settler colonial entity end quote. None of the talk of

2044
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:24,160
Speaker 13: recognizing Palestine amid all of these conditions and stipulations ever

2045
01:59:24,240 --> 01:59:27,200
Speaker 13: say anything about the power imbalance between the two parties

2046
01:59:27,640 --> 01:59:30,360
Speaker 13: or address the root causes of conflict now. On the

2047
01:59:30,440 --> 01:59:33,920
Speaker 13: other hand, political scientist Paul Post, writing for a World

2048
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:39,240
Speaker 13: Politics Review, says, quote, recognition isn't just theater. Recognition is

2049
01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:42,920
Speaker 13: a long standing legal institution that has the important function

2050
01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:47,200
Speaker 13: of identifying major actors in the international system, and for policymakers,

2051
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:50,680
Speaker 13: recognition is the looseness in the rules that allows them

2052
01:59:50,680 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 13: to use recognition not only to identify actors but also

2053
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:57,960
Speaker 13: to express opinions about them or to secure concessions from them. So,

2054
01:59:58,280 --> 02:00:03,480
Speaker 13: from his perspective, these declarations of recognition are meaningful in

2055
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:07,960
Speaker 13: some shape or form. Here's my take. Statehood recognition is

2056
02:00:08,000 --> 02:00:12,040
Speaker 13: not meaningless. In fact, it's probably dangerous in this current moment,

2057
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 13: because what it's trying to do is to cement the

2058
02:00:15,320 --> 02:00:19,960
Speaker 13: conflict in its place. These countries recognizing Palestine want to

2059
02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:24,080
Speaker 13: hurry the current Palestinian leadership into accepting a state and

2060
02:00:24,200 --> 02:00:27,240
Speaker 13: name only that is not sovereign. They want to force

2061
02:00:27,280 --> 02:00:29,600
Speaker 13: the Israelis to the table to do that, and they

2062
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:32,640
Speaker 13: want these conditions to become the precedent for future negotiations.

2063
02:00:33,600 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 13: And we see signs of this in other ways. For example,

2064
02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:42,560
Speaker 13: the international community and regional powers pressured Palestinian President Mahmoud

2065
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:47,000
Speaker 13: Abbass into changing the rules of the PLO's internal governance

2066
02:00:47,600 --> 02:00:50,360
Speaker 13: in order to appoint a successor because they were afraid

2067
02:00:50,360 --> 02:00:52,720
Speaker 13: he was going to keep over, and he appointed a

2068
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:56,200
Speaker 13: very unpopular figure named sen richech as I wrote for

2069
02:00:56,240 --> 02:01:00,280
Speaker 13: The Guardian alongside palestiniancially and activist Pablo of ABUFOM. In

2070
02:01:00,360 --> 02:01:03,960
Speaker 13: May of this year. Abbas also expanded the Central Council

2071
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:07,200
Speaker 13: of the PLO and appointed friendly people to it. All

2072
02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:10,880
Speaker 13: of this shows that the international community, in pressuring the

2073
02:01:10,920 --> 02:01:16,040
Speaker 13: Pastinian leadership in these directions, has no interest in democratic

2074
02:01:16,240 --> 02:01:18,080
Speaker 13: buy in, in actually getting the buy in of the

2075
02:01:18,080 --> 02:01:23,200
Speaker 13: Palestinian people, really thinking that a legitimate negotiation would ever

2076
02:01:23,240 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 13: be sustainable under these circumstances. This state of affairs, these

2077
02:01:28,600 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 13: schemes where international powers try to ignore what the Palestinian

2078
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:35,720
Speaker 13: people want yet again, is the reason Palestinians don't really

2079
02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:40,200
Speaker 13: have any hope in any solution. In polling on one state,

2080
02:01:40,360 --> 02:01:44,720
Speaker 13: two states, etc. Forty seven percent prefer the two state

2081
02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:48,280
Speaker 13: solution based on the nineteen sixty seven borders, fifteen percent

2082
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 13: prefer confederation between the two states, and fourteen percent of

2083
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:54,680
Speaker 13: Palestinians prefer the establishment of a single state with equality

2084
02:01:54,680 --> 02:01:57,920
Speaker 13: between the two sides. Twenty four percent of Palestinians polled

2085
02:01:58,200 --> 02:01:59,960
Speaker 13: said that they did not know or did not want

2086
02:01:59,920 --> 02:02:04,160
Speaker 13: to answer. Also, when asked about the public's support or

2087
02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 13: opposition to specific political measures to break the current political deadlock,

2088
02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:13,400
Speaker 13: sixty eight percent of Palestinians supported joining more international organizations

2089
02:02:13,920 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 13: but still fifty percent supported resorting to unarmed popular resistance,

2090
02:02:18,440 --> 02:02:22,000
Speaker 13: forty six percent supported a return to armed intefaldo, and

2091
02:02:22,080 --> 02:02:24,960
Speaker 13: forty two percent supported the dissolution of the Palstinian authority.

2092
02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:28,240
Speaker 13: Twenty six percent supported abandoning the two state solution and

2093
02:02:28,240 --> 02:02:31,720
Speaker 13: demanding one state for Postinians and Israelis. What this sort

2094
02:02:31,720 --> 02:02:36,520
Speaker 13: of polling shows is that Palestinians now understand very clearly

2095
02:02:37,040 --> 02:02:40,800
Speaker 13: that the international system is screwing them over, international law

2096
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:43,720
Speaker 13: hasn't been able to help them, and that the solutions

2097
02:02:43,720 --> 02:02:46,680
Speaker 13: for a two state solution being proposed with all of

2098
02:02:46,680 --> 02:02:49,960
Speaker 13: these conditions won't ever actually get to two states and

2099
02:02:50,040 --> 02:02:53,839
Speaker 13: won't give them real sovereignty. The mass protests and actions

2100
02:02:53,880 --> 02:02:56,800
Speaker 13: that took place in twenty twenty one Palestinian activists called

2101
02:02:56,800 --> 02:02:59,840
Speaker 13: this the Unity Uprising or Intefalda, showed that this has

2102
02:03:00,040 --> 02:03:03,480
Speaker 13: always been about sovereignty. In the unit Intofada of twenty

2103
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:08,000
Speaker 13: twenty one, Palstinian activists spoke of a shared struggle against

2104
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:12,600
Speaker 13: Israel's continued erasure of Palestinians. Palestinians living under Israeli rule

2105
02:03:12,760 --> 02:03:16,200
Speaker 13: across the country, whether they had citizenship or they didn't,

2106
02:03:16,600 --> 02:03:19,600
Speaker 13: rejected the old style of politics. They rejected what they

2107
02:03:19,640 --> 02:03:23,120
Speaker 13: saw as artificial fragmentation and they insisted instead on their

2108
02:03:23,200 --> 02:03:27,720
Speaker 13: national identity and shared struggle. As a result, at that time,

2109
02:03:27,760 --> 02:03:31,560
Speaker 13: we witnessed an extraordinary amount of organizing across the Green line,

2110
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:35,200
Speaker 13: so in the territories and in Israel with Palestinian citizens

2111
02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 13: of Israel, and it was a way of reclaiming Palestinian sovereignty.

2112
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:42,480
Speaker 13: The same activists in groups involved in the Jerusalem neighborhood

2113
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:47,400
Speaker 13: of Sheesharrah linked up with those organizing in Haifa and Umlfahim.

2114
02:03:47,720 --> 02:03:50,640
Speaker 13: They built on these connections to launch campaigns over and

2115
02:03:50,680 --> 02:03:55,040
Speaker 13: over in Massafarieta, the Knapbub and much more. Sovereignty has

2116
02:03:55,120 --> 02:03:59,720
Speaker 13: always been an animating demand for Palestinians since before October seventh,

2117
02:03:59,840 --> 02:04:02,560
Speaker 13: and that's surely on everyone's minds now that the war

2118
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:05,960
Speaker 13: in Gaza has extended this long. So the takeaway here

2119
02:04:06,080 --> 02:04:10,200
Speaker 13: is recognition isn't the solution. Statehood may not even be

2120
02:04:10,240 --> 02:04:12,360
Speaker 13: the solution, at least not in the terms they're offering.

2121
02:04:13,120 --> 02:04:14,440
Speaker 7: Sovereignty has always.

2122
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:17,800
Speaker 13: Been what the demand is and these pushes for recognition

2123
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:22,160
Speaker 13: miss that point. Yet again. That's it for me. Thank

2124
02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:25,000
Speaker 13: you for listening to another Palestine episode, and I'll be

2125
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:25,920
Speaker 13: back with more soon.

2126
02:04:26,400 --> 02:04:26,760
Speaker 11: Take care.

2127
02:04:41,400 --> 02:04:44,800
Speaker 7: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly

2128
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:47,320
Speaker 7: newscast covering what is happening in the White House, the

2129
02:04:47,360 --> 02:04:50,040
Speaker 7: crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison

2130
02:04:50,120 --> 02:04:53,840
Speaker 7: Davis today I'm joined by Sophie Lecterman, Robert Evans, and

2131
02:04:54,040 --> 02:04:57,080
Speaker 7: James Stout. This episode, we are covering the week of

2132
02:04:57,360 --> 02:05:01,480
Speaker 7: September fourth to September eleven events.

2133
02:05:01,200 --> 02:05:05,960
Speaker 2: Never wait, remember what, never forget, whichever one of those

2134
02:05:05,960 --> 02:05:06,760
Speaker 2: were supposed to do.

2135
02:05:07,560 --> 02:05:11,040
Speaker 7: So we had a very big news week already, and

2136
02:05:11,120 --> 02:05:14,840
Speaker 7: then a very big piece of news happened yesterday when

2137
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:19,560
Speaker 7: we usually record Executive Disorder, but this is Thursday. We

2138
02:05:19,600 --> 02:05:23,120
Speaker 7: waited a little bit to get some more information before

2139
02:05:23,200 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 7: we talk about this story, which will probably be the

2140
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:30,360
Speaker 7: biggest story of the week, the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

2141
02:05:31,000 --> 02:05:34,840
Speaker 2: So on Wednesday, September tenth, at Utah Valley University at

2142
02:05:34,880 --> 02:05:39,560
Speaker 2: around twelve twenty three pm Mountain time, Charlie kirk was

2143
02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:43,640
Speaker 2: shot during a campus event. It was a big outdoor event.

2144
02:05:43,800 --> 02:05:46,839
Speaker 2: The crowd, I mean, there's some good footage of elevation

2145
02:05:46,920 --> 02:05:48,520
Speaker 2: of the size of the crowd it was. It looked

2146
02:05:48,560 --> 02:05:51,720
Speaker 2: like several thousand people who had shown up to I

2147
02:05:51,760 --> 02:05:54,600
Speaker 2: think it did all. It seemed like largely supporters, but

2148
02:05:54,640 --> 02:05:58,040
Speaker 2: there was certainly a mix of supporters and protesters around. Yeah,

2149
02:05:58,280 --> 02:06:01,440
Speaker 2: and yeah, Kirk was shot one from a distance of

2150
02:06:01,640 --> 02:06:04,360
Speaker 2: I think the right now. The best estimate is around

2151
02:06:04,360 --> 02:06:08,360
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty yards. I mean that's precise, not accurate,

2152
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:10,960
Speaker 2: because people are kind of basing it on just sort

2153
02:06:11,000 --> 02:06:14,600
Speaker 2: of like looking at the images and doing like that.

2154
02:06:14,760 --> 02:06:16,480
Speaker 7: Perhaps the satellite estimation right.

2155
02:06:16,440 --> 02:06:18,480
Speaker 2: Right, But that does seem credible based on what I've seen,

2156
02:06:18,520 --> 02:06:20,960
Speaker 2: about one hundred and fifty yards or so, Yeah, which

2157
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:23,560
Speaker 2: is not long range. That's not like short range. It's

2158
02:06:23,600 --> 02:06:27,320
Speaker 2: like low medium range for a rifle. And they found,

2159
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:29,880
Speaker 2: or at least the FBI is saying they found the rifle,

2160
02:06:29,960 --> 02:06:32,200
Speaker 2: and the pictures show it to be an extremely normal

2161
02:06:32,240 --> 02:06:35,360
Speaker 2: looking bolt action hunting rifle. Kirk was shot once in

2162
02:06:35,400 --> 02:06:38,240
Speaker 2: the neck. It hit his brain stem. You can kind

2163
02:06:38,240 --> 02:06:40,400
Speaker 2: of tell by the way his arms moved after he

2164
02:06:40,480 --> 02:06:44,080
Speaker 2: was shot, so he probably lost consciousness immediately and he

2165
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:46,320
Speaker 2: was declared dead about two hours later at the hospital.

2166
02:06:46,400 --> 02:06:50,640
Speaker 2: But that's largely because that tends to be how it's handled.

2167
02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:53,480
Speaker 2: When somebody is shot like this, they don't like to

2168
02:06:54,160 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 2: announce their death immediately, even if they died immediately, Like

2169
02:06:58,040 --> 02:07:00,320
Speaker 2: that's just kind of it's best pret you want to

2170
02:07:00,360 --> 02:07:02,760
Speaker 2: make sure you've contacted the family and everything like that.

2171
02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:05,000
Speaker 2: So that's what happened.

2172
02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:08,480
Speaker 14: Yeah, and his case of family were present I think

2173
02:07:08,720 --> 02:07:09,880
Speaker 14: at the at the event.

2174
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:13,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure some of them, but there's yeah,

2175
02:07:13,160 --> 02:07:15,440
Speaker 2: like not ever like they would have probably wanted, Like

2176
02:07:15,480 --> 02:07:18,120
Speaker 2: I doubt his parents or whatever were all there or whatever,

2177
02:07:18,160 --> 02:07:20,280
Speaker 2: like even if his wife and kids were sure.

2178
02:07:20,360 --> 02:07:21,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, totally makes sense.

2179
02:07:21,320 --> 02:07:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, those are the facts that we can verify.

2180
02:07:24,440 --> 02:07:27,200
Speaker 2: And there's actually fairly little besides this other than some

2181
02:07:27,320 --> 02:07:31,440
Speaker 2: time stuff that we can verify perfectly. Like they're currently

2182
02:07:31,480 --> 02:07:34,520
Speaker 2: saying that about eleven fifty two am Mountain time the

2183
02:07:34,520 --> 02:07:38,320
Speaker 2: shooter arrived near campus, because they do have some videos

2184
02:07:38,360 --> 02:07:40,920
Speaker 2: of the person they think was the shooter. There were

2185
02:07:40,960 --> 02:07:43,400
Speaker 2: at least two people who were taken into custody right

2186
02:07:43,480 --> 02:07:46,000
Speaker 2: after the shooting who proved not to be the guy,

2187
02:07:46,120 --> 02:07:48,320
Speaker 2: and I think they were just grabbing people like it

2188
02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:51,160
Speaker 2: did not They did not seem to be any good reason.

2189
02:07:51,200 --> 02:07:52,480
Speaker 2: One of them had a pellet rifle.

2190
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:56,720
Speaker 7: The first guy started shouting after the shooting and I'll

2191
02:07:56,760 --> 02:08:00,000
Speaker 7: do it again, and this prompted him to be detained,

2192
02:08:00,360 --> 02:08:03,640
Speaker 7: but was later found to not be a legitimate suspect

2193
02:08:03,680 --> 02:08:04,200
Speaker 7: in the shooting.

2194
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:07,760
Speaker 2: No, because he was right next to the shooting. Yeah,

2195
02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:11,920
Speaker 2: had no weapon, nothing. So I mean, those are the

2196
02:08:11,920 --> 02:08:14,800
Speaker 2: facts as they stand right now. The photo that has

2197
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:17,920
Speaker 2: been released of the guy they think did it looks

2198
02:08:18,000 --> 02:08:22,040
Speaker 2: like about eighty percent of the male population of Utah

2199
02:08:22,640 --> 02:08:28,120
Speaker 2: clean shaven, but otherwise he looked just as nondescriptives like

2200
02:08:28,200 --> 02:08:30,520
Speaker 2: this dude takes his hat off, maybe shaves his head

2201
02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:33,400
Speaker 2: like it would not be wildly difficult for him to

2202
02:08:33,880 --> 02:08:35,960
Speaker 2: hide because he does not look like.

2203
02:08:35,960 --> 02:08:39,480
Speaker 7: Pretty greeny pictures not as clear as something like the

2204
02:08:40,360 --> 02:08:41,560
Speaker 7: healthcare CEO shooting.

2205
02:08:41,640 --> 02:08:45,680
Speaker 15: Yeah, and the FBI did offer a reward of up

2206
02:08:45,760 --> 02:08:47,720
Speaker 15: to one hundred thousand dollars for information.

2207
02:08:48,640 --> 02:08:54,560
Speaker 7: We do know that, Yeah, which points towards the usefulness

2208
02:08:54,560 --> 02:08:57,080
Speaker 7: of the tips they have been getting so far. Exactly.

2209
02:08:57,480 --> 02:08:58,000
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2210
02:08:58,080 --> 02:09:01,320
Speaker 14: Yeah, the rightfle is for anyone interested. It looks they

2211
02:09:01,360 --> 02:09:02,360
Speaker 14: thought it was a mauser.

2212
02:09:02,680 --> 02:09:06,200
Speaker 2: I guess it didn't look like one from the photos

2213
02:09:06,200 --> 02:09:08,880
Speaker 2: that they released, but maybe that maybe that was yet again,

2214
02:09:08,960 --> 02:09:11,080
Speaker 2: not the gun, because the FBI has said a lot

2215
02:09:11,080 --> 02:09:12,760
Speaker 2: of things and then backtracked on it.

2216
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:16,360
Speaker 14: Yeah, the New York Post has a picture of a

2217
02:09:16,400 --> 02:09:20,560
Speaker 14: sporterized Spanish mouser with a composite stock.

2218
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:22,000
Speaker 8: Have you seen that one, Robert.

2219
02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:24,560
Speaker 2: Yes, that's the one I saw that. It looked like

2220
02:09:24,600 --> 02:09:26,920
Speaker 2: a savage to me. But is that is that a

2221
02:09:26,960 --> 02:09:30,160
Speaker 2: sportized eight millimeter that was rebarrel the thirty eight six?

2222
02:09:30,480 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 8: That would be my guess.

2223
02:09:31,320 --> 02:09:33,080
Speaker 14: The Spanish mousers the only one I'm aware of that

2224
02:09:33,120 --> 02:09:35,440
Speaker 14: has the bolt turned down in that way. Good idea,

2225
02:09:36,040 --> 02:09:38,600
Speaker 14: but that it's not a great picture. It could also

2226
02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:39,600
Speaker 14: be something else.

2227
02:09:39,680 --> 02:09:42,840
Speaker 2: Because it just looked like any hunting rifle on a

2228
02:09:42,880 --> 02:09:45,040
Speaker 2: store rack the photo that I saw.

2229
02:09:45,240 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 14: Yeah, Yeah, No, I think it's someone has done a

2230
02:09:47,480 --> 02:09:48,520
Speaker 14: sported job on it.

2231
02:09:48,680 --> 02:09:49,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2232
02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:53,960
Speaker 14: What's somewhat interesting about that, like, other than just being adweeb,

2233
02:09:54,520 --> 02:09:58,160
Speaker 14: is that potentially one could acquire a gun like that

2234
02:09:58,840 --> 02:10:01,600
Speaker 14: without having filled out forty four to seventy three form

2235
02:10:01,680 --> 02:10:05,200
Speaker 14: right like an FBI background check. I know they will

2236
02:10:05,280 --> 02:10:07,240
Speaker 14: if they have the weapon, they will certainly be pursuing

2237
02:10:07,240 --> 02:10:09,640
Speaker 14: trying to trace that as one of the ways they're

2238
02:10:09,640 --> 02:10:13,520
Speaker 14: trying to locate the shooter. Yes, so if this person's

2239
02:10:13,640 --> 02:10:16,000
Speaker 14: either a relative could have acquired it before it was

2240
02:10:16,080 --> 02:10:18,360
Speaker 14: necessary to do a forty four to seventy three yes,

2241
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:22,280
Speaker 14: or I think with curios and relics in some states,

2242
02:10:22,520 --> 02:10:25,680
Speaker 14: or antique weapons, you don't have to do a background check.

2243
02:10:26,160 --> 02:10:28,920
Speaker 2: No, and you don't have to do a background check.

2244
02:10:29,000 --> 02:10:31,480
Speaker 2: I mean, face to face sales are I believe legal

2245
02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:34,800
Speaker 2: in Utah. Yes, private, face to face sales are legal

2246
02:10:34,840 --> 02:10:35,440
Speaker 2: in Utah.

2247
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:36,000
Speaker 7: Okay.

2248
02:10:36,160 --> 02:10:38,240
Speaker 2: So if this guy bought Basically, what that means is

2249
02:10:38,280 --> 02:10:40,360
Speaker 2: if this guy just bought a gun in cash from

2250
02:10:40,440 --> 02:10:43,280
Speaker 2: a dude, there's not a record of that, although said

2251
02:10:43,360 --> 02:10:44,520
Speaker 2: dude might come forward.

2252
02:10:44,680 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 6: Sure.

2253
02:10:45,240 --> 02:10:48,000
Speaker 2: That said, the fact that this is a sportized old

2254
02:10:48,120 --> 02:10:50,480
Speaker 2: mouser means this could be a gun that's put in

2255
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:53,120
Speaker 2: the family a while that he's sportalized, in which case

2256
02:10:53,160 --> 02:10:54,880
Speaker 2: there's absolutely no record of it.

2257
02:10:55,280 --> 02:10:55,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2258
02:10:55,760 --> 02:10:57,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, definitely, I'm guessing.

2259
02:10:58,240 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 14: I've seen people call it a high powered rifle and

2260
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:02,280
Speaker 14: stuff like, just just be aware it's kind of an

2261
02:11:02,280 --> 02:11:02,760
Speaker 14: old gun.

2262
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:04,360
Speaker 5: It's an old gun.

2263
02:11:04,440 --> 02:11:06,280
Speaker 2: I mean, if it's thirty, If it is thirty at six,

2264
02:11:06,400 --> 02:11:08,120
Speaker 2: I would say that's a high power cartridge.

2265
02:11:08,280 --> 02:11:08,600
Speaker 8: No it is.

2266
02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:09,760
Speaker 5: That's a big round.

2267
02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:12,640
Speaker 8: But yeah, it's a full size rifle cartridge for sure.

2268
02:11:12,680 --> 02:11:14,720
Speaker 2: People hunt deer with thirty at six all the time.

2269
02:11:14,800 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 2: It's an extremely normal hunting rifle.

2270
02:11:17,600 --> 02:11:20,800
Speaker 14: Yeah, like probably top five most common kinds of rifle

2271
02:11:20,840 --> 02:11:22,240
Speaker 14: for someone to have in this country.

2272
02:11:22,360 --> 02:11:24,600
Speaker 2: And that was bolt action hunting rifle was my assumption

2273
02:11:24,680 --> 02:11:26,760
Speaker 2: as soon as I saw the video, because the guy

2274
02:11:26,800 --> 02:11:30,720
Speaker 2: fired one shot, and it's relatively uncommon for people who

2275
02:11:30,760 --> 02:11:35,120
Speaker 2: are shooting in mass crowded public situations like this to

2276
02:11:35,240 --> 02:11:38,720
Speaker 2: limit themselves to a single round, which it just suggests

2277
02:11:38,800 --> 02:11:41,160
Speaker 2: number one, like a bolt action, which I also thought

2278
02:11:41,200 --> 02:11:43,560
Speaker 2: was likely because they didn't leave any amo behind. Yeah,

2279
02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:45,520
Speaker 2: and if he was firing something like an AR, those

2280
02:11:45,560 --> 02:11:48,920
Speaker 2: can fling brass so widely that you can't easily catch it,

2281
02:11:49,520 --> 02:11:51,879
Speaker 2: like if you're especially if you're trying to escape immediately

2282
02:11:51,880 --> 02:11:55,080
Speaker 2: after shooting. And yeah, I would guess. I'm seeing a

2283
02:11:55,120 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 2: lot of people online obviously conspiracy start. I'm seeing so

2284
02:11:58,520 --> 02:11:59,960
Speaker 2: many people say like this had to have been a hit,

2285
02:12:00,240 --> 02:12:01,680
Speaker 2: This was a professional, Only a.

2286
02:12:01,560 --> 02:12:03,040
Speaker 8: Professional could have done this.

2287
02:12:02,960 --> 02:12:07,160
Speaker 7: This trump distracting from Epstein. This was the massage that

2288
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:11,560
Speaker 7: this was any number of unhinged theories around this event.

2289
02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:14,400
Speaker 2: And I will say right now as pertains the competence

2290
02:12:14,640 --> 02:12:17,360
Speaker 2: of the shooter, anyone who had picked up a gun

2291
02:12:17,400 --> 02:12:20,240
Speaker 2: for the first time couldn't have easily done this. Like

2292
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:22,960
Speaker 2: I doubt this as someone who was new to firearms,

2293
02:12:23,480 --> 02:12:26,440
Speaker 2: but anyone who like shot a deer once or twice

2294
02:12:26,440 --> 02:12:29,640
Speaker 2: a year could have made this happen. Anybody who went

2295
02:12:29,680 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 2: to the range, you know, once or twice a month

2296
02:12:32,480 --> 02:12:35,160
Speaker 2: for a while, could have gotten competent enough to make

2297
02:12:35,200 --> 02:12:37,240
Speaker 2: a shot like this very easily.

2298
02:12:37,360 --> 02:12:39,840
Speaker 7: Very doable for like hobbyist shooters, which there are many

2299
02:12:39,840 --> 02:12:41,840
Speaker 7: of in the United States, and any other in Utah.

2300
02:12:42,360 --> 02:12:44,440
Speaker 2: I would be shocked if like less than about eighty

2301
02:12:44,480 --> 02:12:47,480
Speaker 2: percent of the adult male population of Utah could have

2302
02:12:47,520 --> 02:12:48,280
Speaker 2: made this shot.

2303
02:12:48,520 --> 02:12:48,720
Speaker 5: Right.

2304
02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:50,800
Speaker 7: You do not need like military training, You do not

2305
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:52,400
Speaker 7: need to be a veteran to make this shot.

2306
02:12:52,680 --> 02:12:53,400
Speaker 5: Absolutely not.

2307
02:12:53,960 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 14: And I think it's very irresponsible to see so many people,

2308
02:12:57,400 --> 02:13:00,960
Speaker 14: like including people who had journalists Spec eighteen like that. Like,

2309
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:03,400
Speaker 14: I know that generally firearms are not covered well in

2310
02:13:03,400 --> 02:13:05,920
Speaker 14: the US media despite being ubiquitous here, but like in

2311
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:08,240
Speaker 14: cases like this, it's okay no to no, but it's

2312
02:13:08,280 --> 02:13:09,680
Speaker 14: better to be quiet if you don't know.

2313
02:13:10,520 --> 02:13:12,800
Speaker 2: Yes, the other thing I guess we should get into

2314
02:13:12,880 --> 02:13:15,080
Speaker 2: is in terms of the escape and what we know.

2315
02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:20,760
Speaker 2: This is also not something that necessitates fucking Navy seal training, right, Like, Yeah,

2316
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:25,560
Speaker 2: you're a white, clean cut guy in fucking Salt Lake City.

2317
02:13:25,640 --> 02:13:27,560
Speaker 2: If you have a bag that you can hide your

2318
02:13:27,560 --> 02:13:29,840
Speaker 2: gun in and you get down, maybe throw on a

2319
02:13:29,880 --> 02:13:32,640
Speaker 2: different jacket or something like that over your shirt or

2320
02:13:32,760 --> 02:13:36,440
Speaker 2: change shirts, walk away, get to your car, drive off.

2321
02:13:36,720 --> 02:13:38,800
Speaker 2: Very hard for them to track you. Salt Lake City's

2322
02:13:38,840 --> 02:13:41,440
Speaker 2: not New York. It's not blanketed in cameras, not like

2323
02:13:41,520 --> 02:13:45,040
Speaker 2: New York. There's not a massive police presence for this rally,

2324
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:48,320
Speaker 2: and there certainly wasn't a massive police presence doing concentric

2325
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:50,520
Speaker 2: circles around the rally. This was not like a fucking

2326
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:53,000
Speaker 2: the President's in town and the Secret Service is walking

2327
02:13:53,000 --> 02:13:54,600
Speaker 2: everything down for two miles.

2328
02:13:54,480 --> 02:13:57,880
Speaker 7: And Charlie's own security tends to stay close to him

2329
02:13:58,040 --> 02:14:00,840
Speaker 7: at the event. They're not set up with giant perimeters.

2330
02:14:01,240 --> 02:14:03,040
Speaker 2: No, because none of them expected something like this.

2331
02:14:03,680 --> 02:14:06,760
Speaker 14: Yeah, I'm sure that Charlie Kirk has received threats before,

2332
02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:09,480
Speaker 14: But yes, I mean, there's only so much a private

2333
02:14:09,480 --> 02:14:10,600
Speaker 14: individual can do.

2334
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:14,080
Speaker 7: Right In these situations, he often wears a bulletproof vest.

2335
02:14:14,160 --> 02:14:15,600
Speaker 8: Yes, a really Yeah.

2336
02:14:15,720 --> 02:14:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's only so much a private individual can do,

2337
02:14:18,600 --> 02:14:21,280
Speaker 2: And there's only so much you can do if you're

2338
02:14:21,280 --> 02:14:26,440
Speaker 2: holding an event outside, Yeah, like to stop somebody who's

2339
02:14:26,480 --> 02:14:29,280
Speaker 2: got us a scoped rifle from getting on top of

2340
02:14:29,280 --> 02:14:32,360
Speaker 2: a roof, right Like. I'm sure his family is firing

2341
02:14:32,400 --> 02:14:36,000
Speaker 2: their current security right now, obviously, But I really don't

2342
02:14:36,040 --> 02:14:38,360
Speaker 2: know what they could have done, like what his personal

2343
02:14:38,400 --> 02:14:41,880
Speaker 2: security could realistically have done, other than say, don't do

2344
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 2: an event outside, Charlie.

2345
02:14:43,360 --> 02:14:43,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2346
02:14:44,080 --> 02:14:47,680
Speaker 7: A few other notes that we should touch on. On

2347
02:14:47,880 --> 02:14:54,720
Speaker 7: Thursday morning, some unverified information related to the ongoing investigation

2348
02:14:54,880 --> 02:15:01,520
Speaker 7: notes leaked online through fellow campus to be Stephen Crowder.

2349
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:05,959
Speaker 7: Stephen Crowder shared an internal memo which contained unverified information,

2350
02:15:06,600 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 7: which reads in part quote atf another law enforcement located

2351
02:15:11,280 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 7: an older model imported Mouser thirty odd six caliber bolt

2352
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:18,480
Speaker 7: action rifle wrapped in a towel in a wooded area

2353
02:15:18,640 --> 02:15:21,160
Speaker 7: near the campus. The location of the fire room appears

2354
02:15:21,160 --> 02:15:24,320
Speaker 7: to match the suspect's route of travel. The spent cartridge

2355
02:15:24,480 --> 02:15:27,960
Speaker 7: was still chambered, in addition to three unspent rounds in

2356
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:32,240
Speaker 7: the top Fed magazine. All cartridges have engraved wording on

2357
02:15:32,320 --> 02:15:38,680
Speaker 7: them expressing transgender and anti fascist ideology unquote. So this

2358
02:15:38,880 --> 02:15:42,080
Speaker 7: claim linking the shooting to transgender and quote unquote anti

2359
02:15:42,160 --> 02:15:46,000
Speaker 7: fascist ideology, whatever that means, spread around the internet like

2360
02:15:46,120 --> 02:15:49,920
Speaker 7: wild as expected, though a few hours later, The New

2361
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:53,400
Speaker 7: York Times reported quote according to a preliminary internal report

2362
02:15:53,440 --> 02:15:56,720
Speaker 7: circulated inside the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives,

2363
02:15:57,040 --> 02:16:00,400
Speaker 7: federal and local officials recovered ammunition with the show tutor's

2364
02:16:00,480 --> 02:16:03,520
Speaker 7: rifle that appeared to be engrave with statements expressing transgender

2365
02:16:03,560 --> 02:16:07,320
Speaker 7: and anti fascist ideology. But a senior law enforcement official

2366
02:16:07,360 --> 02:16:11,120
Speaker 7: with direct knowledge of the investigation cautioned that report had

2367
02:16:11,120 --> 02:16:15,360
Speaker 7: not been verified by ATF analysts, did not match other

2368
02:16:15,440 --> 02:16:18,440
Speaker 7: summaries of the evidence, and might turn out to have

2369
02:16:18,480 --> 02:16:23,040
Speaker 7: been misread or misinterpreted. In fast moving investigations, such status

2370
02:16:23,040 --> 02:16:26,080
Speaker 7: reports are not made public because they often contain a

2371
02:16:26,120 --> 02:16:29,680
Speaker 7: mixture of accurate and inaccurate information unquote.

2372
02:16:29,960 --> 02:16:30,880
Speaker 5: Yes and again.

2373
02:16:31,160 --> 02:16:34,720
Speaker 2: When that person with the pellet rifle was arrested, Cash Betel,

2374
02:16:34,800 --> 02:16:37,280
Speaker 2: director of the FBI, posted on Twitter, we have the

2375
02:16:37,320 --> 02:16:40,520
Speaker 2: man who killed Charlie Kirk. And then had to post

2376
02:16:40,600 --> 02:16:43,960
Speaker 2: like an hour later. Nope, which is not a thing

2377
02:16:44,000 --> 02:16:47,080
Speaker 2: you saw with previous directors of the FBI. For a

2378
02:16:47,120 --> 02:16:47,800
Speaker 2: good reason.

2379
02:16:48,280 --> 02:16:52,720
Speaker 14: Yeah, like that their handling of this has been pretty unorphodox.

2380
02:16:53,640 --> 02:16:56,240
Speaker 2: No, And I can see why a fucking Stephen Crowder

2381
02:16:56,240 --> 02:16:58,280
Speaker 2: fan in the ATF would want to get that out

2382
02:16:58,280 --> 02:17:01,760
Speaker 2: immediately totally actually, because he probably knew at some point

2383
02:17:01,760 --> 02:17:03,800
Speaker 2: that's going to get corrected. But what matters is it

2384
02:17:03,840 --> 02:17:05,440
Speaker 2: gets out for some degree of time.

2385
02:17:05,800 --> 02:17:07,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, and then that bakes into the reality of a

2386
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:09,320
Speaker 7: certain number of people forever.

2387
02:17:09,879 --> 02:17:10,199
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2388
02:17:10,320 --> 02:17:12,720
Speaker 2: Right, And that's what matters. Whether or not it's true.

2389
02:17:12,840 --> 02:17:14,480
Speaker 2: We don't know yet. Is it true or not?

2390
02:17:14,720 --> 02:17:15,960
Speaker 5: Right? We simply don't know.

2391
02:17:16,840 --> 02:17:21,480
Speaker 7: Heyesus Garrison. This is just a short update. On Thursday evening,

2392
02:17:21,879 --> 02:17:26,119
Speaker 7: law Enforcement gave a press conference where Utah Governor Spencer

2393
02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:31,760
Speaker 7: Cox cautioned against quote unquote a tremendous amount of disinformation

2394
02:17:32,640 --> 02:17:36,680
Speaker 7: circulating online about the killing of Charlie Kirk and specifically

2395
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:41,480
Speaker 7: cited boughts from China and Russia which were encouraging violence

2396
02:17:41,560 --> 02:17:47,039
Speaker 7: and instilling disinformation into discourse around the shooting. Now, while

2397
02:17:47,040 --> 02:17:49,959
Speaker 7: there certainly have been many on the left who have

2398
02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:53,040
Speaker 7: been joking or even celebrating this shooting.

2399
02:17:53,160 --> 02:17:54,760
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, lots of people.

2400
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:58,760
Speaker 7: Rhetoric from the right has been similarly violent, with calls

2401
02:17:58,800 --> 02:18:03,039
Speaker 7: to do mass violence or purge the Democrats or people

2402
02:18:03,080 --> 02:18:05,040
Speaker 7: on the left. I'm going to play video of the

2403
02:18:05,040 --> 02:18:08,440
Speaker 7: White House released late Wednesday night of Trump giving a

2404
02:18:08,560 --> 02:18:10,360
Speaker 7: statement on the shooting.

2405
02:18:10,760 --> 02:18:13,720
Speaker 10: It's a long past time for all Americans and the

2406
02:18:13,760 --> 02:18:18,119
Speaker 10: media to confront the fact that violence and murder are

2407
02:18:18,160 --> 02:18:23,279
Speaker 10: the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree,

2408
02:18:23,360 --> 02:18:26,879
Speaker 10: day after day, year after year, in the most hateful

2409
02:18:26,920 --> 02:18:31,280
Speaker 10: and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical

2410
02:18:31,360 --> 02:18:36,280
Speaker 10: left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and

2411
02:18:36,360 --> 02:18:41,280
Speaker 10: the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of

2412
02:18:41,600 --> 02:18:46,560
Speaker 10: rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing

2413
02:18:46,560 --> 02:18:50,800
Speaker 10: in our country today, and it must stop right now.

2414
02:18:52,000 --> 02:18:55,199
Speaker 10: My administration will find each and every one of those

2415
02:18:55,240 --> 02:18:59,680
Speaker 10: who contributed to this atrocity and to other political violence

2416
02:18:59,720 --> 02:19:03,720
Speaker 10: and voting, the organizations that funded and support it, as

2417
02:19:03,760 --> 02:19:08,640
Speaker 10: well as those who go after our judges, law enforcement officials,

2418
02:19:08,959 --> 02:19:10,279
Speaker 10: and everyone else who.

2419
02:19:10,120 --> 02:19:12,240
Speaker 6: Brings order to our country.

2420
02:19:12,640 --> 02:19:16,120
Speaker 10: From the attack on my life, in Butler, Pennsylvania last year,

2421
02:19:16,640 --> 02:19:19,480
Speaker 10: which killed a husband and father, to the attacks on

2422
02:19:19,800 --> 02:19:23,760
Speaker 10: ICE agents, to the vicious murder of a healthcare executive

2423
02:19:23,800 --> 02:19:26,879
Speaker 10: in the streets of New York, to the shooting of

2424
02:19:27,040 --> 02:19:31,480
Speaker 10: House Majority leaders Steve Scalise and three others. Radical of

2425
02:19:31,640 --> 02:19:36,039
Speaker 10: political violence has hurt too many innocent people and taken

2426
02:19:36,120 --> 02:19:37,120
Speaker 10: too many lives.

2427
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:40,840
Speaker 7: The Trump assassin was not left wing.

2428
02:19:41,560 --> 02:19:43,920
Speaker 5: Now he was a registered Republican.

2429
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:48,119
Speaker 7: There's currently no indication of the political alignment of this

2430
02:19:48,280 --> 02:19:51,320
Speaker 7: shooter whatsoever. Just because they killed Charlie Kirk does not

2431
02:19:51,480 --> 02:19:54,440
Speaker 7: mean that this was a left wing ANTIFA super soldier.

2432
02:19:54,879 --> 02:19:57,680
Speaker 7: Charlie Kirk has had a memafied status on the Internet

2433
02:19:57,720 --> 02:20:00,720
Speaker 7: for the past few years, which is encouraged vitriol and

2434
02:20:00,800 --> 02:20:03,480
Speaker 7: threats from those on the extreme right as well as

2435
02:20:03,560 --> 02:20:04,280
Speaker 7: the far left.

2436
02:20:04,640 --> 02:20:08,199
Speaker 14: Yeah, he's particularly disliked by like the hardcore anti Semites

2437
02:20:08,200 --> 02:20:09,320
Speaker 14: on their right, and.

2438
02:20:09,280 --> 02:20:13,279
Speaker 7: The Grapers have long had fun with making threats against

2439
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:15,840
Speaker 7: Charlie Kirk and the quote unquote groper war, which we

2440
02:20:15,840 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 7: don't have time to get into. But it's not just

2441
02:20:18,640 --> 02:20:23,520
Speaker 7: Trump's worrying statement there promising a degree of crackdown. Jesse

2442
02:20:23,600 --> 02:20:27,959
Speaker 7: Waters on Fox has claimed quote, We're gonna avenge Charlie's death.

2443
02:20:28,080 --> 02:20:28,360
Speaker 5: Yep.

2444
02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:32,320
Speaker 7: Here's a clip of Jesse Waters on Fox News last night.

2445
02:20:32,760 --> 02:20:36,280
Speaker 16: Trump gets hit in the ear, Charlie gets shot dead.

2446
02:20:37,720 --> 02:20:41,160
Speaker 16: They came after Kavanaugh with a rifle to his neighborhood.

2447
02:20:41,400 --> 02:20:45,080
Speaker 16: They went after Musk's cars. They just shot two Jews

2448
02:20:45,080 --> 02:20:46,200
Speaker 16: outside the embassy.

2449
02:20:47,400 --> 02:20:48,080
Speaker 5: Think about it.

2450
02:20:48,280 --> 02:20:50,439
Speaker 16: Scalice got shot, barely survived.

2451
02:20:51,520 --> 02:20:52,119
Speaker 6: It's happening.

2452
02:20:52,240 --> 02:20:56,800
Speaker 16: We've got transshooters, the got Riots and la They are

2453
02:20:56,879 --> 02:20:59,480
Speaker 16: at war with us. Whether we want to accept it

2454
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:02,720
Speaker 16: or not, they are at war with us. What are

2455
02:21:02,760 --> 02:21:05,800
Speaker 16: we going to do about it? How much political violence

2456
02:21:06,120 --> 02:21:08,640
Speaker 16: are we going to tolerate? And that's the question we're

2457
02:21:08,640 --> 02:21:12,040
Speaker 16: just going to have to ask ourselves now. Charlie would

2458
02:21:12,120 --> 02:21:15,960
Speaker 16: want us to put as much pressure on these people

2459
02:21:16,000 --> 02:21:16,800
Speaker 16: as possible.

2460
02:21:17,160 --> 02:21:18,039
Speaker 3: Dana nailed it.

2461
02:21:18,520 --> 02:21:22,520
Speaker 16: This is unacceptable and has to stop, and it has

2462
02:21:22,600 --> 02:21:23,600
Speaker 16: to stop now.

2463
02:21:24,040 --> 02:21:25,560
Speaker 6: And everybody's accountable.

2464
02:21:25,720 --> 02:21:29,000
Speaker 16: And we're watching what they're saying on television and who's

2465
02:21:29,040 --> 02:21:33,360
Speaker 16: saying what the politicians and the media and all these

2466
02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:37,760
Speaker 16: rats out there. This can never happen again. It ends now.

2467
02:21:37,920 --> 02:21:41,440
Speaker 16: Greg's right again. This is a turning point.

2468
02:21:41,080 --> 02:21:43,840
Speaker 2: And we know which direction we're going he made a

2469
02:21:43,879 --> 02:21:44,400
Speaker 2: turning point.

2470
02:21:44,480 --> 02:21:48,400
Speaker 7: Joe huh, Yes, that's Jesse Waters doing a turning point. Time.

2471
02:21:48,680 --> 02:21:53,280
Speaker 14: Also, the use of rats to refer to other people is,

2472
02:21:54,080 --> 02:21:57,360
Speaker 14: I know, it's giving like radio milklan vibes.

2473
02:21:57,600 --> 02:22:01,840
Speaker 2: It's also worth noting Republican Repersentative Clay Higgins from Louisiana

2474
02:22:02,040 --> 02:22:04,279
Speaker 2: is saying that he's seeking to have social media companies

2475
02:22:04,320 --> 02:22:07,800
Speaker 2: place lifetime bans on users who celebrated the assassination.

2476
02:22:08,720 --> 02:22:13,280
Speaker 7: It's not just Jesse Waters calling for war. Other commentators

2477
02:22:13,320 --> 02:22:16,680
Speaker 7: are employing very similar rhetoric, including Alex Jones and Steve Bannon.

2478
02:22:16,840 --> 02:22:17,680
Speaker 5: We're in a war.

2479
02:22:18,800 --> 02:22:20,800
Speaker 1: The Latins was saying, put a bulls on Trump at

2480
02:22:20,800 --> 02:22:22,440
Speaker 1: Bullson As supporters.

2481
02:22:22,160 --> 02:22:26,960
Speaker 6: Charlie Kirk's a casualty of war? Would war in this country?

2482
02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:30,800
Speaker 7: Chaia Wrtcheck tweeted on the lips of TikTok account quote

2483
02:22:30,879 --> 02:22:35,000
Speaker 7: this is war. The Oathkeeper founder Stuart Rhodes announced on

2484
02:22:35,040 --> 02:22:37,640
Speaker 7: Info Wars that his militia would be reforming to help

2485
02:22:37,720 --> 02:22:39,679
Speaker 7: with security at right wing events.

2486
02:22:40,000 --> 02:22:41,160
Speaker 5: Great, oh gosh.

2487
02:22:41,320 --> 02:22:43,959
Speaker 7: It was a good Wired article Wednesday night, which collected

2488
02:22:44,240 --> 02:22:47,040
Speaker 7: various cost of violence among the right in the aftermath

2489
02:22:47,040 --> 02:22:50,120
Speaker 7: of the shooting. Quote. Ed Martin, US pardon attorney and

2490
02:22:50,160 --> 02:22:52,879
Speaker 7: former acting with Stornay for DC wrote on Twitter, quote

2491
02:22:53,240 --> 02:22:56,560
Speaker 7: for it is written, vengeance is mine. I will repay,

2492
02:22:56,720 --> 02:23:00,520
Speaker 7: says the Lord. Citing Romans twelve nineteen, Elon must posted

2493
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,720
Speaker 7: the left is the party of murder, then quoted a

2494
02:23:03,760 --> 02:23:06,320
Speaker 7: post blaming the left wing and mainstream media, as well

2495
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:08,640
Speaker 7: as figures like Gavin Newsom for radicalizing people against right

2496
02:23:08,680 --> 02:23:12,320
Speaker 7: wing figures like Kirk. Katie Miller, who works with Moscat

2497
02:23:12,400 --> 02:23:14,920
Speaker 7: Doge and is the wife of Stephen Miller, wrote on

2498
02:23:15,240 --> 02:23:18,520
Speaker 7: x that even liberals condemning violence quote have blood on

2499
02:23:18,560 --> 02:23:20,480
Speaker 7: their hands. You could be.

2500
02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:20,880
Speaker 6: Next.

2501
02:23:20,959 --> 02:23:24,199
Speaker 7: Influencer and unofficial Trump advisor Laura Lumer posted on Twitter,

2502
02:23:24,480 --> 02:23:28,080
Speaker 7: the left are terrorists. Christopher Ruffo, a conservative activist who

2503
02:23:28,080 --> 02:23:31,520
Speaker 7: popularized the demonization of critical race theory, suggested in a

2504
02:23:31,600 --> 02:23:34,080
Speaker 7: Twitter post that the radical left was responsible for the

2505
02:23:34,080 --> 02:23:38,160
Speaker 7: shooting and urged the US government to quote infiltrate, disrupt, arrest,

2506
02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:40,800
Speaker 7: and incars rate all those who are responsible for this

2507
02:23:40,920 --> 02:23:45,840
Speaker 7: chaos unquote. There's many, many more. This is after the

2508
02:23:45,920 --> 02:23:50,400
Speaker 7: right has long celebrated certain types of political violence.

2509
02:23:50,520 --> 02:23:51,920
Speaker 5: Oh yes, constantly.

2510
02:23:52,080 --> 02:23:54,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, like that old guy in Panama who shot a

2511
02:23:55,000 --> 02:23:59,480
Speaker 7: protester blocking the street. The entire right rallied behind that man.

2512
02:24:00,080 --> 02:24:03,840
Speaker 7: Kirk himself has embraced Kyle Rittenhouse, who shot and killed

2513
02:24:03,879 --> 02:24:08,240
Speaker 7: two people after a plastic bag was thrown in the

2514
02:24:08,320 --> 02:24:12,280
Speaker 7: direction of Kyle Rittenhouse. Kirk was vocally supportive of the

2515
02:24:12,320 --> 02:24:15,560
Speaker 7: man who tried to attack Nancy Pelosi in her home

2516
02:24:16,080 --> 02:24:17,959
Speaker 7: and did attack pol Pelosi.

2517
02:24:17,560 --> 02:24:21,320
Speaker 2: Yes, specifically specifically urged his audience to bail him out.

2518
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:25,120
Speaker 7: It was like not even two months ago that Minnesota

2519
02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:29,439
Speaker 7: state senator and her husband were killed. Political violence exists

2520
02:24:29,560 --> 02:24:33,279
Speaker 7: across the spectrum. This is not a left wing problem.

2521
02:24:33,320 --> 02:24:34,760
Speaker 7: This is an American problem.

2522
02:24:34,959 --> 02:24:35,439
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2523
02:24:35,480 --> 02:24:39,000
Speaker 2: I mean the vast majority of political of terrorist attacks

2524
02:24:39,000 --> 02:24:41,520
Speaker 2: that are politically motivated in the US are right wing

2525
02:24:41,879 --> 02:24:43,840
Speaker 2: like and have been for the last several decades.

2526
02:24:43,920 --> 02:24:46,760
Speaker 7: Per the FBI, in the twenty twelve to twenty twenty one,

2527
02:24:47,240 --> 02:24:51,360
Speaker 7: fifty five percent of murders tied to political streamism came

2528
02:24:51,600 --> 02:24:55,640
Speaker 7: from white supremacy fourteen percent, anti government six percent to

2529
02:24:55,680 --> 02:24:59,360
Speaker 7: other right wing twenty percent, Islamist four percent left wing,

2530
02:25:00,240 --> 02:25:03,800
Speaker 7: and the white supremacy fifty five percent are far right Nazis.

2531
02:25:04,440 --> 02:25:04,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2532
02:25:04,959 --> 02:25:07,800
Speaker 2: In terms of like who did this? Yeah, I think

2533
02:25:07,840 --> 02:25:10,440
Speaker 2: we touched on Grouper's a little bit. We should probably

2534
02:25:10,440 --> 02:25:14,160
Speaker 2: talk a bit more about the kind of online feud

2535
02:25:14,240 --> 02:25:18,119
Speaker 2: between a chunk of Nick Fuintes's fan base and Charlie Kirk.

2536
02:25:18,560 --> 02:25:20,720
Speaker 7: It was certainly more prominent a few years ago. As

2537
02:25:21,080 --> 02:25:23,400
Speaker 7: Kirk has himself has moved further to right, has adopted

2538
02:25:23,400 --> 02:25:26,959
Speaker 7: great replacement theory, the feud kind of dissipated, but it

2539
02:25:27,000 --> 02:25:31,400
Speaker 7: certainly was like a legitimate thing in the right for years.

2540
02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:34,400
Speaker 2: Yes, to the extent that that's a number of folks

2541
02:25:34,440 --> 02:25:36,760
Speaker 2: that kind of have suspected that, like maybe that's who

2542
02:25:36,800 --> 02:25:37,039
Speaker 2: did it.

2543
02:25:37,120 --> 02:25:38,640
Speaker 5: Again, we really have no idea.

2544
02:25:38,720 --> 02:25:41,000
Speaker 2: I'm just bringing this up to make the point that, like,

2545
02:25:41,560 --> 02:25:44,080
Speaker 2: there's a variety of reasons why this guy could have

2546
02:25:44,120 --> 02:25:46,039
Speaker 2: done this, why this person could have done this, including

2547
02:25:46,480 --> 02:25:48,920
Speaker 2: could be an Epstein related thing. Right, there's a lot

2548
02:25:48,920 --> 02:25:51,000
Speaker 2: of anger at figures who kind of bought into the

2549
02:25:51,040 --> 02:25:54,240
Speaker 2: Trump line that we're done now with the Epstein stuff.

2550
02:25:54,360 --> 02:25:56,880
Speaker 2: There's no way to know, and I think that's kind

2551
02:25:56,920 --> 02:25:59,800
Speaker 2: of where we have to end that part of artist

2552
02:26:00,320 --> 02:26:03,320
Speaker 2: here is we don't know why this was done, and

2553
02:26:03,360 --> 02:26:06,640
Speaker 2: to extent, it doesn't matter if it comes out tomorrow

2554
02:26:06,800 --> 02:26:09,680
Speaker 2: that this guy was like a White House staffer working

2555
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:12,279
Speaker 2: for Donald Trump who did it because he thought Charlie

2556
02:26:12,320 --> 02:26:14,879
Speaker 2: Kirk had disre Like if some crazy shit like that happened,

2557
02:26:14,920 --> 02:26:17,080
Speaker 2: it wouldn't change at all the way that they're talking

2558
02:26:17,120 --> 02:26:20,040
Speaker 2: about this shooting, right, like it just doesn't matter, Like

2559
02:26:20,879 --> 02:26:23,440
Speaker 2: we are where we are with them, and they're saying

2560
02:26:23,480 --> 02:26:25,520
Speaker 2: a lot of the same stuff like that, this is

2561
02:26:25,560 --> 02:26:29,240
Speaker 2: an escalation in rhetoric, but it's not a massive escalation

2562
02:26:29,280 --> 02:26:31,760
Speaker 2: in rhetoric over the way they've been talking about fucking

2563
02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:33,720
Speaker 2: the people, changing light, like the.

2564
02:26:34,040 --> 02:26:36,560
Speaker 7: Crocker barrel logo logo, we have to go to war,

2565
02:26:36,800 --> 02:26:37,360
Speaker 7: we have to.

2566
02:26:37,320 --> 02:26:38,520
Speaker 5: Go to war, We're at war.

2567
02:26:38,800 --> 02:26:40,960
Speaker 14: I was thinking about that when you said that, like

2568
02:26:41,560 --> 02:26:43,560
Speaker 14: the lips of TikTok had tweeted that we were at war,

2569
02:26:43,640 --> 02:26:45,640
Speaker 14: Like you could probably go back and see dozens of

2570
02:26:45,640 --> 02:26:48,759
Speaker 14: other instances almost exactly the same statement.

2571
02:26:48,760 --> 02:26:52,040
Speaker 2: Right, And is this something that could lead to mass

2572
02:26:52,080 --> 02:26:54,520
Speaker 2: Could this be because I've seen people comparing this guy

2573
02:26:54,959 --> 02:26:58,520
Speaker 2: like Charlie Kirk to Horst Wessel, who was a Nazi,

2574
02:26:58,640 --> 02:27:01,160
Speaker 2: was literally a pimp, was a member of the Nazi

2575
02:27:01,160 --> 02:27:03,200
Speaker 2: brown Shirts who was murdered and it became a huge

2576
02:27:03,280 --> 02:27:05,440
Speaker 2: rallying cry for the Nazi Party, right, they made a

2577
02:27:05,440 --> 02:27:07,520
Speaker 2: song about him. It was a big deal. I think

2578
02:27:07,520 --> 02:27:10,039
Speaker 2: that's kind of a very silly comparison. For one thing,

2579
02:27:10,760 --> 02:27:13,600
Speaker 2: Horse Wessel is meaningful because he was killed before the

2580
02:27:13,680 --> 02:27:16,880
Speaker 2: Nazis came to power, and they used his death in

2581
02:27:17,000 --> 02:27:19,720
Speaker 2: order to get to power, and Trump is in power.

2582
02:27:19,760 --> 02:27:23,800
Speaker 7: If you're not aware, they don't need to invent excuses

2583
02:27:23,840 --> 02:27:26,240
Speaker 7: either to like crack down on the left or no,

2584
02:27:26,480 --> 02:27:30,640
Speaker 7: or carry out their policies. They're already doing that. I've

2585
02:27:30,680 --> 02:27:33,640
Speaker 7: seen people go into complete panic mode because they're gonna

2586
02:27:33,640 --> 02:27:37,880
Speaker 7: be like, they're gonna use this this shooting to now

2587
02:27:37,920 --> 02:27:42,280
Speaker 7: do terrible things, as if they're not already doing terrible things,

2588
02:27:42,320 --> 02:27:44,520
Speaker 7: Like they don't need to wait for events to happen.

2589
02:27:44,600 --> 02:27:47,720
Speaker 7: They are more than willing just to do whatever they

2590
02:27:47,720 --> 02:27:48,800
Speaker 7: want when they want to.

2591
02:27:49,280 --> 02:27:54,760
Speaker 2: Yes, that is exactly like, that's exactly what I would

2592
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:59,240
Speaker 2: tell you. And in terms of like comparisons, I don't

2593
02:27:59,240 --> 02:28:01,800
Speaker 2: even think it's super useful to try to compare this

2594
02:28:01,959 --> 02:28:06,039
Speaker 2: to specific figures from fucking German history, because there's.

2595
02:28:05,840 --> 02:28:09,280
Speaker 7: Really not America in twenty twenty five. Yeah, there's a

2596
02:28:09,360 --> 02:28:13,400
Speaker 7: viral TikTok of a man talking about the Book of Mormon,

2597
02:28:13,879 --> 02:28:16,240
Speaker 7: like like seconds after the shooting.

2598
02:28:16,040 --> 02:28:18,440
Speaker 2: Standing next to where Kirk died, and we now know

2599
02:28:18,480 --> 02:28:20,720
Speaker 2: that he stole a bunch of shit from the booth

2600
02:28:20,720 --> 02:28:25,160
Speaker 2: that was covered in blood to sell it online. Like this,

2601
02:28:25,160 --> 02:28:27,600
Speaker 2: this is all of the books of the America in Germany.

2602
02:28:27,640 --> 02:28:29,320
Speaker 5: You won't find anything like that in it.

2603
02:28:29,879 --> 02:28:33,680
Speaker 14: Yeah, Like a better historical comparison we will see, right,

2604
02:28:33,800 --> 02:28:38,320
Speaker 14: might be Jose Carvo, whose death did immediately sort of

2605
02:28:38,720 --> 02:28:40,920
Speaker 14: was one of the things that accelerated the start of

2606
02:28:40,959 --> 02:28:43,720
Speaker 14: the Spanish Civil War, I guess, yeah, But even then, like,

2607
02:28:43,800 --> 02:28:47,440
Speaker 14: no one was tiktoking and grabbing much that was stained

2608
02:28:47,480 --> 02:28:48,280
Speaker 14: by his blood.

2609
02:28:48,720 --> 02:28:51,520
Speaker 2: No, And there's no you can like say, like, oh, well,

2610
02:28:51,560 --> 02:28:56,240
Speaker 2: this figure's assassination preceded this kind of violence, but like, okay,

2611
02:28:56,360 --> 02:28:59,480
Speaker 2: was that figure a guy who did what Charlie Kirk

2612
02:28:59,560 --> 02:29:01,480
Speaker 2: did and was connected in the way that No, like

2613
02:29:01,520 --> 02:29:03,879
Speaker 2: this is an American thing, this is new. Yeah, this

2614
02:29:03,920 --> 02:29:06,240
Speaker 2: is a novel. His moment in history, and we don't

2615
02:29:06,240 --> 02:29:09,800
Speaker 2: know what's going to happen. I'm not saying, don't you

2616
02:29:09,879 --> 02:29:13,200
Speaker 2: know if you're the kind of person who has been

2617
02:29:13,200 --> 02:29:17,120
Speaker 2: worried about right wing violence accelerating. You shouldn't be less

2618
02:29:17,160 --> 02:29:19,560
Speaker 2: worried right now, and I think that's a good thing

2619
02:29:19,600 --> 02:29:22,600
Speaker 2: to be worried about. There's been a spree of bomb

2620
02:29:22,600 --> 02:29:26,960
Speaker 2: threats called into like historically black colleges today and DNC

2621
02:29:27,120 --> 02:29:30,680
Speaker 2: headquarters last I checked. I don't think anything actually has

2622
02:29:30,720 --> 02:29:33,440
Speaker 2: been done, but it makes sense. It's an anger reaction

2623
02:29:33,680 --> 02:29:35,760
Speaker 2: from the right. You know, you've got some people who

2624
02:29:36,000 --> 02:29:38,320
Speaker 2: woke up pissed off this morning and decided to call

2625
02:29:38,320 --> 02:29:41,520
Speaker 2: in some bomb threats. Apparently we'll see you know who

2626
02:29:41,520 --> 02:29:45,160
Speaker 2: the culprits were there. But I didn't want to touch

2627
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:47,000
Speaker 2: on something else that I've seen in the wake of

2628
02:29:47,040 --> 02:29:48,640
Speaker 2: all this that is pretty novel. But we should do

2629
02:29:48,680 --> 02:30:03,480
Speaker 2: an ad break first, all right, coming back, I wanted

2630
02:30:03,520 --> 02:30:06,080
Speaker 2: to talk briefly about the way AI is being used

2631
02:30:06,720 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 2: by civilian investigators to try and crack this caper. People

2632
02:30:12,520 --> 02:30:15,360
Speaker 2: have been using AI to enhance the images that the

2633
02:30:15,440 --> 02:30:20,039
Speaker 2: FBI released of the maybe shooter. Again, we don't even

2634
02:30:20,120 --> 02:30:22,119
Speaker 2: know that that guy's the shooter because they fucked up

2635
02:30:22,640 --> 02:30:26,640
Speaker 2: very badly on this initially, but people have been using

2636
02:30:26,680 --> 02:30:28,880
Speaker 2: to like clarify and we know that the AI is

2637
02:30:28,920 --> 02:30:31,720
Speaker 2: doing a bad job because again he's wearing a distinctive shirt.

2638
02:30:31,720 --> 02:30:34,879
Speaker 2: People found the shirt online and when the AI was

2639
02:30:34,959 --> 02:30:38,680
Speaker 2: like solidifying the image on the shirt, it did it wrong,

2640
02:30:38,959 --> 02:30:40,880
Speaker 2: Like it put like a silhouette of a man on

2641
02:30:40,920 --> 02:30:42,199
Speaker 2: there that wasn't on there.

2642
02:30:42,000 --> 02:30:44,400
Speaker 7: Like it like you can also submit the same image

2643
02:30:44,440 --> 02:30:47,160
Speaker 7: to like five different AI imaging programs and get five

2644
02:30:47,360 --> 02:30:50,520
Speaker 7: wildly different results for what the face quote unquote looks like.

2645
02:30:51,040 --> 02:30:53,680
Speaker 2: And I just brought that up because I haven't seen

2646
02:30:53,720 --> 02:30:56,000
Speaker 2: that happen before with one of these things. And it

2647
02:30:56,080 --> 02:30:58,199
Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, cool, that's a fun new.

2648
02:30:58,440 --> 02:30:59,760
Speaker 7: This is gonna be something we'd have to deal with

2649
02:30:59,760 --> 02:31:04,000
Speaker 7: now for every single right preceding event in absolutely, yes,

2650
02:31:04,560 --> 02:31:08,440
Speaker 7: whatever this hellscape of the American century of humiliation looks like.

2651
02:31:08,680 --> 02:31:08,960
Speaker 5: Yes.

2652
02:31:09,360 --> 02:31:11,840
Speaker 2: The other thing I wanted to bring up is, within

2653
02:31:12,000 --> 02:31:14,560
Speaker 2: about like two to three hours after Kirk was killed,

2654
02:31:15,000 --> 02:31:17,240
Speaker 2: and after again it had been announced that he was dead,

2655
02:31:17,560 --> 02:31:20,520
Speaker 2: people were asking Grock is this video? Because the video

2656
02:31:20,600 --> 02:31:24,200
Speaker 2: was spreading wildly of him dying on everywhere. Really, but

2657
02:31:24,240 --> 02:31:27,560
Speaker 2: people asked on Twitter, they asked grok elon Musk's AI

2658
02:31:27,720 --> 02:31:31,000
Speaker 2: is this real? And the response that was posted initially

2659
02:31:31,160 --> 02:31:34,320
Speaker 2: was Charlie Kirk takes the roast in stride with a laugh.

2660
02:31:34,400 --> 02:31:37,240
Speaker 2: He's faced tougher crowds. Yes, he survives this one easily.

2661
02:31:37,320 --> 02:31:39,720
Speaker 2: And then someone responded, Grok, he got shot through the neck.

2662
02:31:39,760 --> 02:31:41,959
Speaker 2: What are you talking about? And Grok responded, it's a

2663
02:31:42,000 --> 02:31:45,000
Speaker 2: meme video with edited effects to look like a dramatic shot,

2664
02:31:45,440 --> 02:31:48,760
Speaker 2: not a real event. Charlie Kirk is fine, he handles

2665
02:31:48,840 --> 02:31:52,520
Speaker 2: roasts like a pro. So again, I bring this up

2666
02:31:52,640 --> 02:31:56,360
Speaker 2: just because this is going to only become more of

2667
02:31:56,400 --> 02:31:59,960
Speaker 2: a factor in the immediate wake of shootings and terror

2668
02:32:00,080 --> 02:32:03,640
Speaker 2: to tax and disasters. Is people going to AI's for

2669
02:32:03,800 --> 02:32:07,880
Speaker 2: information about the validity of videos, about the validity of threats.

2670
02:32:07,920 --> 02:32:11,200
Speaker 2: And what scares me is not this didn't do any damage, right, Like,

2671
02:32:11,240 --> 02:32:14,160
Speaker 2: this doesn't didn't hurt the man hunt for the killer.

2672
02:32:14,200 --> 02:32:18,400
Speaker 2: It didn't like do anything. It's just ridiculous. But let's

2673
02:32:18,400 --> 02:32:21,720
Speaker 2: say you've got videos of a disaster ongoing, I mean,

2674
02:32:22,320 --> 02:32:25,760
Speaker 2: like a fucking natural disaster coming or whatever, and people

2675
02:32:25,800 --> 02:32:28,680
Speaker 2: are being told to leave their homes and somebody asks

2676
02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:31,440
Speaker 2: the fucking groc hey do I need to hear I'll

2677
02:32:31,480 --> 02:32:33,960
Speaker 2: plug this video and it'll tell me if the storm's

2678
02:32:33,959 --> 02:32:35,880
Speaker 2: going to hit my house or if I can stay here,

2679
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:38,160
Speaker 2: people are gonna do shit like that, like.

2680
02:32:38,160 --> 02:32:39,160
Speaker 5: That's gonna happen.

2681
02:32:39,240 --> 02:32:45,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, you're right anyway, just as heads up. Ah, that's bleak. Yeah,

2682
02:32:46,320 --> 02:32:47,320
Speaker 8: that's pretty terrible.

2683
02:32:47,520 --> 02:32:47,920
Speaker 5: All right.

2684
02:32:48,000 --> 02:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Well that's that's I think all we got to say

2685
02:32:49,840 --> 02:32:50,039
Speaker 2: on this.

2686
02:32:50,680 --> 02:32:54,000
Speaker 14: Yeah, we'll keep updating you is we learn more. I'm

2687
02:32:54,000 --> 02:32:56,160
Speaker 14: sure this will be developing over the weekend.

2688
02:32:56,320 --> 02:32:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is going to keep being a major story. Well,

2689
02:32:58,840 --> 02:33:01,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll do a dedicated episode on it next week.

2690
02:33:01,440 --> 02:33:02,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2691
02:33:02,760 --> 02:33:05,360
Speaker 7: Something else that happened on Wednesday, the same day as

2692
02:33:05,400 --> 02:33:09,640
Speaker 7: the Charlie Kirk assassination, was a school shooting in Colorado.

2693
02:33:10,280 --> 02:33:14,600
Speaker 7: Two students were shot before the shooter killed himself. Police

2694
02:33:14,680 --> 02:33:17,120
Speaker 7: have said, quote, we are looking at a mode if

2695
02:33:17,160 --> 02:33:19,360
Speaker 7: we don't have one yet. He was radicalized by some

2696
02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:23,000
Speaker 7: extremist network in the details of that will be down

2697
02:33:23,000 --> 02:33:25,680
Speaker 7: the road, and we wanted to give you that much

2698
02:33:25,800 --> 02:33:28,400
Speaker 7: about maybe a mindset for him. Unquote.

2699
02:33:29,120 --> 02:33:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess it's just a marking

2700
02:33:33,200 --> 02:33:36,000
Speaker 2: of what kind of shootings Americans are aneured to and

2701
02:33:36,120 --> 02:33:39,160
Speaker 2: not school shootings that's business as.

2702
02:33:39,080 --> 02:33:43,000
Speaker 7: Usual, especially if it's just a regular white male teenager.

2703
02:33:43,400 --> 02:33:43,920
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2704
02:33:44,080 --> 02:33:46,400
Speaker 14: Yeah, we'll be kind of following that one as well

2705
02:33:46,520 --> 02:33:50,560
Speaker 14: to see what it's online radicalization was. Yeah, they've already

2706
02:33:51,600 --> 02:33:55,080
Speaker 14: found so early, but yeah, it's pretty tragic that two

2707
02:33:55,080 --> 02:33:56,640
Speaker 14: school shootings happened in a day.

2708
02:33:57,400 --> 02:34:00,280
Speaker 7: It was reported in multiple outlets last week that the

2709
02:34:00,320 --> 02:34:04,520
Speaker 7: Department of Justice was considering restricting gun ownership rights for

2710
02:34:04,600 --> 02:34:08,199
Speaker 7: transgender Americans in the wake of the Minneapolist Catholic school

2711
02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:12,039
Speaker 7: shooting last month. This was first reported by the Diggity Wire,

2712
02:34:12,160 --> 02:34:15,359
Speaker 7: who quoted the source inside the Justice Department saying, quote,

2713
02:34:15,520 --> 02:34:18,640
Speaker 7: Individuals within the DOJ are reviewing ways to ensure that

2714
02:34:18,760 --> 02:34:23,160
Speaker 7: mentally ill individuals suffering from gender dysphoria are unable to

2715
02:34:23,200 --> 02:34:27,080
Speaker 7: obtain fire arms while they are unstable and unwell unquote.

2716
02:34:27,400 --> 02:34:30,840
Speaker 7: CNN said that their sources described the proposal for a

2717
02:34:30,879 --> 02:34:35,160
Speaker 7: transgun ban as quote preliminary in nature, and since then,

2718
02:34:35,280 --> 02:34:37,600
Speaker 7: the DOJ and the Trump administration have not made any

2719
02:34:37,760 --> 02:34:42,400
Speaker 7: clear statements confirming or denying this reporting. A DOJ spokesperson

2720
02:34:42,520 --> 02:34:45,360
Speaker 7: acknowledg THEES reports with the statement, reading, quote, the DOJ

2721
02:34:45,560 --> 02:34:48,520
Speaker 7: is actively evaluating options to prevent the pattern of violence

2722
02:34:48,520 --> 02:34:51,600
Speaker 7: we have seen from individuals with specific mental health challenges

2723
02:34:51,640 --> 02:34:55,600
Speaker 7: and substance abuse disorders. No specific criminal justice proposals have

2724
02:34:55,680 --> 02:34:58,840
Speaker 7: been advanced at this time. Unquote. Trump declined to answer

2725
02:34:58,840 --> 02:35:02,080
Speaker 7: a question about it possible transgun ban last Friday. This

2726
02:35:02,280 --> 02:35:06,440
Speaker 7: is something right wing influencers have been advocating for years now.

2727
02:35:06,879 --> 02:35:07,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2728
02:35:07,560 --> 02:35:11,360
Speaker 7: On September fifth, the NRA made a statement reading, the

2729
02:35:11,360 --> 02:35:14,039
Speaker 7: Second Amendment isn't up for debate. The NRA supports the

2730
02:35:14,040 --> 02:35:18,080
Speaker 7: Second Amendment rights for all law abiding Americans to purchase, possess,

2731
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:20,240
Speaker 7: and use firearms. The energy does not and will not

2732
02:35:20,280 --> 02:35:24,680
Speaker 7: support any policy proposals that implement sweeping gun bands that

2733
02:35:24,800 --> 02:35:28,440
Speaker 7: arbitrarily strict law abiding citizens of their Second Amendment rights

2734
02:35:28,440 --> 02:35:32,600
Speaker 7: without due process. Yep, which you know is consistent with

2735
02:35:32,680 --> 02:35:36,240
Speaker 7: the NRA's messaging four years because the Lion is the

2736
02:35:36,360 --> 02:35:38,760
Speaker 7: recent messaging yet definitely Yeah, well, I mean the lion

2737
02:35:38,800 --> 02:35:40,440
Speaker 7: has been for as long as I have been a

2738
02:35:40,480 --> 02:35:44,280
Speaker 7: gun owner, which is twenty years now from the NRA

2739
02:35:44,879 --> 02:35:46,279
Speaker 7: that after the Civil Rights movement.

2740
02:35:46,560 --> 02:35:46,760
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2741
02:35:46,840 --> 02:35:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, registration and like laws forcing people to register their.

2742
02:35:51,080 --> 02:35:54,119
Speaker 5: Guns, and like gun control laws in general.

2743
02:35:53,840 --> 02:35:57,879
Speaker 2: Are that restrict at all access to firearms are a

2744
02:35:58,000 --> 02:36:01,600
Speaker 2: prelude inevitably to mass confiscation. Right, Like that has been

2745
02:36:01,640 --> 02:36:03,840
Speaker 2: the that has been the line for a long time.

2746
02:36:04,120 --> 02:36:06,920
Speaker 2: This does not surprise me. Yeah, No, the stance doesn't.

2747
02:36:06,959 --> 02:36:09,760
Speaker 2: The fact that they said something publicly during this does.

2748
02:36:09,840 --> 02:36:13,440
Speaker 2: Because the NRA has been quiet a lot when there's

2749
02:36:13,480 --> 02:36:15,680
Speaker 2: an issue, like, for example, that the shooting the Filando

2750
02:36:15,720 --> 02:36:19,040
Speaker 2: Castile right, who was legally carrying a concealed firearm when

2751
02:36:19,080 --> 02:36:21,960
Speaker 2: the police murdered him in his car. They kept pretty

2752
02:36:21,959 --> 02:36:25,039
Speaker 2: fucking quiet about that. So I am a little surprised

2753
02:36:25,040 --> 02:36:27,400
Speaker 2: that they said something. But what they're saying is is

2754
02:36:27,520 --> 02:36:29,400
Speaker 2: very consistent with other shit they've been saying.

2755
02:36:29,720 --> 02:36:33,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's no current legal mechanism that exists for them

2756
02:36:33,959 --> 02:36:36,800
Speaker 7: to do this. They would have to invent or heavily

2757
02:36:36,840 --> 02:36:39,680
Speaker 7: alter the current weight that gun rights can be taken away,

2758
02:36:39,680 --> 02:36:43,160
Speaker 7: which is right now through individual court cases where a

2759
02:36:43,280 --> 02:36:48,040
Speaker 7: judge finds an individual person quote unquote mentally deficient. Yeah,

2760
02:36:48,080 --> 02:36:50,880
Speaker 7: and it's highly unlikely that the gun lobby will support

2761
02:36:50,879 --> 02:36:55,080
Speaker 7: any policy proposals that start adding certain diagnoses to a

2762
02:36:55,160 --> 02:36:59,640
Speaker 7: list that excludes you from gun ownership, because sure you

2763
02:36:59,840 --> 02:37:03,039
Speaker 7: if you add gender dysphoria, Now, that might not be

2764
02:37:03,080 --> 02:37:05,720
Speaker 7: a huge problem to many on the right, But let's

2765
02:37:05,800 --> 02:37:10,360
Speaker 7: say a Democrat administration and Democrat House and Senate come

2766
02:37:10,400 --> 02:37:13,000
Speaker 7: into power. Now there was this precedent that you can

2767
02:37:13,120 --> 02:37:16,680
Speaker 7: add diagnoses to take away gun rights, which would enable

2768
02:37:16,920 --> 02:37:20,440
Speaker 7: adding things like depression or PTSD, which a lot of

2769
02:37:20,560 --> 02:37:24,560
Speaker 7: veterans have. And this is like the slippery slope that

2770
02:37:24,600 --> 02:37:26,920
Speaker 7: the NRA warns about, So it makes sense that they

2771
02:37:26,959 --> 02:37:31,280
Speaker 7: would be taking this stance. Similarly, I don't necessarily see

2772
02:37:31,280 --> 02:37:34,680
Speaker 7: a very clear path for them to restrict HRT through

2773
02:37:34,720 --> 02:37:38,640
Speaker 7: this mechanism. SIS people, including a lot of men who

2774
02:37:38,640 --> 02:37:43,480
Speaker 7: own guns, take testosterone and CIS women take estrogen, so

2775
02:37:43,640 --> 02:37:46,560
Speaker 7: that would be a very tricky way to handle this.

2776
02:37:46,720 --> 02:37:49,000
Speaker 2: I think the only way they could again would be

2777
02:37:49,040 --> 02:37:53,640
Speaker 2: if they try to restrict en mass like the prescription

2778
02:37:53,840 --> 02:37:58,119
Speaker 2: of hormones specifically to people with gender dysphoria or trans people,

2779
02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:01,280
Speaker 2: which is difficult for a lot of reasons, but would

2780
02:38:01,360 --> 02:38:04,280
Speaker 2: provide it like a pretext for Okay, these people are

2781
02:38:04,320 --> 02:38:07,560
Speaker 2: now taking stuff an illegal substance, and you can go

2782
02:38:07,680 --> 02:38:11,280
Speaker 2: after people with guns for that. But I feel like

2783
02:38:11,600 --> 02:38:14,320
Speaker 2: I don't know how you would judicate that how you

2784
02:38:14,440 --> 02:38:17,840
Speaker 2: like force like the federal government does not theoretically have

2785
02:38:17,879 --> 02:38:21,480
Speaker 2: the ability to force the medical community to say nobody

2786
02:38:21,879 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 2: who's got generous for you gets hormones.

2787
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:24,160
Speaker 11: Ever.

2788
02:38:24,240 --> 02:38:26,080
Speaker 14: Again, Yeah, I mean, you could maybe do something through

2789
02:38:26,120 --> 02:38:27,600
Speaker 14: the FDA, but I don't see how you could do

2790
02:38:27,640 --> 02:38:29,200
Speaker 14: it just to trans people and.

2791
02:38:30,040 --> 02:38:33,400
Speaker 2: How right, like, how would you keep it legal for

2792
02:38:33,440 --> 02:38:36,400
Speaker 2: all of Joe Rogan's friends, and that's just like through

2793
02:38:36,440 --> 02:38:39,240
Speaker 2: the FDA, right, I don't I literally just don't know.

2794
02:38:39,400 --> 02:38:40,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm not super familiar with that.

2795
02:38:41,120 --> 02:38:43,120
Speaker 7: But this is obviously something that we will keep an

2796
02:38:43,160 --> 02:38:45,400
Speaker 7: eye on. This is this is like a possibility that

2797
02:38:45,400 --> 02:38:49,800
Speaker 7: we've discussed the right wanting to enact for years now,

2798
02:38:50,320 --> 02:38:53,160
Speaker 7: and the fact that the DOJ might even have some

2799
02:38:53,400 --> 02:38:58,040
Speaker 7: people in there who are doing preliminary considerations. It obviously

2800
02:38:58,160 --> 02:39:02,080
Speaker 7: is a worrying sign of the general position on trans

2801
02:39:02,200 --> 02:39:03,560
Speaker 7: rights and transgund rights.

2802
02:39:03,680 --> 02:39:06,959
Speaker 14: Yeah, for our immigration update this week, I want to

2803
02:39:06,959 --> 02:39:11,119
Speaker 14: start by talking about the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court

2804
02:39:11,160 --> 02:39:14,240
Speaker 14: confirmed in its case that CBP and more permanently ICE

2805
02:39:14,840 --> 02:39:18,680
Speaker 14: can continue their policy of racial profiling. This overturned a

2806
02:39:18,760 --> 02:39:21,600
Speaker 14: lower court judges ordered that prohibits them from stopping someone

2807
02:39:21,600 --> 02:39:24,920
Speaker 14: in Los Angeles based on ethnicity alone. It didn't just

2808
02:39:24,959 --> 02:39:27,520
Speaker 14: look at ethnicity, It said that it prohibits them from

2809
02:39:27,600 --> 02:39:30,800
Speaker 14: using either one or a combination of four factors, which

2810
02:39:30,840 --> 02:39:33,680
Speaker 14: were a parent race, their accent, or their use for

2811
02:39:33,800 --> 02:39:37,440
Speaker 14: non English language, their job. Their jobs that tend to

2812
02:39:37,480 --> 02:39:40,160
Speaker 14: have a higher proportion of undocumented people. Right, they get

2813
02:39:40,240 --> 02:39:44,200
Speaker 14: construction and some agricultural jobs. And their presence at a

2814
02:39:44,240 --> 02:39:47,520
Speaker 14: certain place again right, places like a home depot or

2815
02:39:47,959 --> 02:39:51,440
Speaker 14: a farm garrison. Smiling at how I correctly pronounce the

2816
02:39:51,480 --> 02:39:54,600
Speaker 14: word defo there. CBP has always been able to profile

2817
02:39:54,640 --> 02:39:56,400
Speaker 14: you at the border. Right, that's kind of what they do.

2818
02:39:56,720 --> 02:40:00,720
Speaker 14: There was a nineteen seventy five Supreme Court decision that

2819
02:40:00,760 --> 02:40:04,359
Speaker 14: one is called USA versus Bridnion. I think it's BRIDNIONI

2820
02:40:04,520 --> 02:40:08,920
Speaker 14: like Italian Brigni ponce. That decision looked a roving traffic

2821
02:40:09,000 --> 02:40:13,200
Speaker 14: stop up hearing. I lives in San Clemente. And in

2822
02:40:13,240 --> 02:40:17,080
Speaker 14: that case, the CBP had stopped someone not a checkpoint,

2823
02:40:17,320 --> 02:40:19,280
Speaker 14: but while sitting by the side of the highway in

2824
02:40:19,320 --> 02:40:23,360
Speaker 14: their vehicle, and they had done so solely based on

2825
02:40:23,400 --> 02:40:27,839
Speaker 14: the apparent ethnicity of the driver. That was ruled unconstitutional,

2826
02:40:28,200 --> 02:40:30,520
Speaker 14: and the standard that offices needed to have was quote

2827
02:40:30,640 --> 02:40:36,160
Speaker 14: reasonable suspicion that pertains to roving stops, which is kind

2828
02:40:36,200 --> 02:40:39,080
Speaker 14: of what Ice is doing in La right. CBP officers

2829
02:40:39,080 --> 02:40:41,800
Speaker 14: have also previously been sued, more recently for using a

2830
02:40:41,879 --> 02:40:44,520
Speaker 14: language as a sold basis for the tension, like if

2831
02:40:44,520 --> 02:40:47,320
Speaker 14: you're speaking Spanish, yeah, exactly, that was the case, right,

2832
02:40:47,360 --> 02:40:50,480
Speaker 14: it's pseudo and Hernandez versus US Customs and Border Protection.

2833
02:40:50,840 --> 02:40:52,240
Speaker 8: That one was in Montana.

2834
02:40:52,280 --> 02:40:55,600
Speaker 14: The ACLU of Montana sued them to Spanish speaking ladies

2835
02:40:55,600 --> 02:40:58,400
Speaker 14: were speaking Spanish in a store. They actually said hello

2836
02:40:58,440 --> 02:41:01,200
Speaker 14: to a board of drill agent in Englis, who proceeded

2837
02:41:01,200 --> 02:41:03,320
Speaker 14: to detain them on the basis that not many people

2838
02:41:03,400 --> 02:41:04,680
Speaker 14: speak Spanish in Montana.

2839
02:41:05,000 --> 02:41:08,039
Speaker 8: I think the name is from Spanish, like Montagna, but

2840
02:41:08,120 --> 02:41:08,800
Speaker 8: maybe I'm wrong.

2841
02:41:09,280 --> 02:41:14,080
Speaker 14: The State Department has also issued guidance that non immigrant

2842
02:41:14,240 --> 02:41:19,320
Speaker 14: visa applicants can now only schedule interviews in their own country.

2843
02:41:19,720 --> 02:41:22,680
Speaker 14: So this is a further burden for people seeking visas

2844
02:41:23,520 --> 02:41:25,800
Speaker 14: to come to the United States. Right Previously, you could

2845
02:41:25,840 --> 02:41:30,520
Speaker 14: do it another US embassy or consulate for instance. You know,

2846
02:41:30,680 --> 02:41:34,640
Speaker 14: if you were let's say French but resident in Spain,

2847
02:41:34,920 --> 02:41:38,280
Speaker 14: you could apply at the consulate or embassy there. Right

2848
02:41:38,840 --> 02:41:42,959
Speaker 14: now you have to go to your country's embassy. In

2849
02:41:43,000 --> 02:41:46,920
Speaker 14: some cases, there are designated embassies or consular places for

2850
02:41:46,920 --> 02:41:49,160
Speaker 14: for national states where the US has no embassy or

2851
02:41:49,240 --> 02:41:52,080
Speaker 14: similar presence, like a US hasn't got an embassy in

2852
02:41:52,120 --> 02:41:55,240
Speaker 14: Afghanistan right now for pretty obvious reasons, right, So I

2853
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:57,279
Speaker 14: believe it's such a lama bad for those people.

2854
02:41:57,040 --> 02:41:58,120
Speaker 8: For example.

2855
02:41:58,720 --> 02:42:01,360
Speaker 14: Finally, I want to get onto the case of the

2856
02:42:01,440 --> 02:42:04,120
Speaker 14: dozens of watermelon children who came to the US and

2857
02:42:04,160 --> 02:42:07,120
Speaker 14: accompanied by adults they are related to and who the

2858
02:42:07,160 --> 02:42:10,240
Speaker 14: Trump admin attempted to deport over the Labor Day weekend.

2859
02:42:10,560 --> 02:42:12,840
Speaker 14: Sometimes I don't like the phrase ou accompanied miners because

2860
02:42:12,879 --> 02:42:14,879
Speaker 14: maybe they are accompanied by someone who's just not in

2861
02:42:14,920 --> 02:42:17,200
Speaker 14: their family, right that people have taken care of them

2862
02:42:17,240 --> 02:42:21,080
Speaker 14: on the journey, almost certainly, and I've seen this myself,

2863
02:42:21,480 --> 02:42:23,120
Speaker 14: and so I don't know the idea that they're not

2864
02:42:23,160 --> 02:42:26,320
Speaker 14: just walking alone, but they are not with their relatives,

2865
02:42:26,400 --> 02:42:31,000
Speaker 14: right if undertaking this journey themselves. So Judge Sparkle sugno

2866
02:42:31,080 --> 02:42:34,440
Speaker 14: Nan temporarily halted their removal in the early hours of

2867
02:42:34,520 --> 02:42:38,200
Speaker 14: Sunday morning of Labor Day weekend. This is an extremely

2868
02:42:38,320 --> 02:42:42,359
Speaker 14: unusual decision, right, but the judge decided it was warranted

2869
02:42:42,400 --> 02:42:44,840
Speaker 14: because not doing so would put the children in potential

2870
02:42:44,959 --> 02:42:51,160
Speaker 14: extreme danger. The government categorically attempted to remove these children,

2871
02:42:51,360 --> 02:42:54,760
Speaker 14: like very quickly and literally got them out of bed

2872
02:42:54,920 --> 02:42:57,119
Speaker 14: right like, we've got these little children out of beds

2873
02:42:57,120 --> 02:42:59,440
Speaker 14: in their foster homes and attempted to shove them on

2874
02:42:59,440 --> 02:43:02,920
Speaker 14: a plane to Guatemala. Their attorney literally ran onto the

2875
02:43:02,959 --> 02:43:06,520
Speaker 14: tarmac at the airport to tell flight control personnel that

2876
02:43:06,560 --> 02:43:08,600
Speaker 14: they were likely in violation of a court order if

2877
02:43:08,600 --> 02:43:11,960
Speaker 14: they allowed the plane to take off. It couldn't be

2878
02:43:12,040 --> 02:43:14,280
Speaker 14: more last minute than this, right, They were literally working

2879
02:43:14,320 --> 02:43:18,440
Speaker 14: all night. Judge Tim Kelly now has to rule on

2880
02:43:18,480 --> 02:43:22,039
Speaker 14: the legitimacy of the government's claims. The claim the government

2881
02:43:22,120 --> 02:43:25,520
Speaker 14: makes here is that it was quote reuniting children with

2882
02:43:25,640 --> 02:43:29,200
Speaker 14: parents abroad, not deporting them, and that would mean the

2883
02:43:29,280 --> 02:43:32,280
Speaker 14: children don't have the statutory protections that they do if

2884
02:43:32,280 --> 02:43:35,360
Speaker 14: it were being deported as quote unquote unaccompanied miners.

2885
02:43:35,440 --> 02:43:35,640
Speaker 8: Right.

2886
02:43:36,400 --> 02:43:39,279
Speaker 14: Previously, the government had made the claim that the children's

2887
02:43:39,320 --> 02:43:42,880
Speaker 14: parents wanted them to be returned. It's dropped that claim

2888
02:43:42,920 --> 02:43:47,400
Speaker 14: after Router's published a Guatemalan government document which completely refutes

2889
02:43:47,400 --> 02:43:49,520
Speaker 14: that none of the children's parents seem to want them

2890
02:43:49,560 --> 02:43:52,640
Speaker 14: to come home. So what the government is claiming here

2891
02:43:52,720 --> 02:43:57,320
Speaker 14: is that the Office of Refugee Resettlement, which is under HHS,

2892
02:43:57,760 --> 02:44:01,760
Speaker 14: is moving the children, not the Department of Homeland Security.

2893
02:44:02,360 --> 02:44:07,320
Speaker 14: So they're not being deported, they're being reunified with their families. Yeah,

2894
02:44:07,440 --> 02:44:11,720
Speaker 14: that's a pretty sketchy claim. Meanwhile, the kids are in shelters.

2895
02:44:12,200 --> 02:44:14,920
Speaker 14: Many of them were in long term foster care and

2896
02:44:14,959 --> 02:44:18,200
Speaker 14: have been now removed from that environment, and they're in shelters.

2897
02:44:18,920 --> 02:44:22,240
Speaker 14: Law Fare, which is an online publication, has a pretty

2898
02:44:22,240 --> 02:44:24,480
Speaker 14: good account of the courtroom exchange that I've linked in

2899
02:44:24,480 --> 02:44:27,640
Speaker 14: the notes. I also several people have asked about this,

2900
02:44:27,680 --> 02:44:29,600
Speaker 14: so I should talk about it. I wanted to talk

2901
02:44:29,640 --> 02:44:34,080
Speaker 14: about the Hyundai plant in Georgia. I don't know what

2902
02:44:34,160 --> 02:44:36,840
Speaker 14: to call this raid. Yeah, in Georgia, I guess raid

2903
02:44:36,920 --> 02:44:40,880
Speaker 14: is the right word. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Like more than

2904
02:44:41,000 --> 02:44:44,199
Speaker 14: three hundred South Korean workers were attained.

2905
02:44:43,879 --> 02:44:46,200
Speaker 8: At the plant. They should be going home today.

2906
02:44:46,280 --> 02:44:49,080
Speaker 14: They were supposed to go home yesterday, but there were

2907
02:44:49,080 --> 02:44:52,000
Speaker 14: some delays so far. ICE has claimed that these people

2908
02:44:52,040 --> 02:44:55,959
Speaker 14: were working without proper authorization and Slash or but not

2909
02:44:56,000 --> 02:44:59,840
Speaker 14: in the US with proper authorization, their lawyers have claimed,

2910
02:45:00,120 --> 02:45:04,480
Speaker 14: and The Guardian has foundly documents that confirm that many

2911
02:45:04,480 --> 02:45:06,600
Speaker 14: of them had B one visa status.

2912
02:45:07,160 --> 02:45:09,720
Speaker 8: B one is like you can do some work on

2913
02:45:09,760 --> 02:45:10,200
Speaker 8: a B one.

2914
02:45:10,280 --> 02:45:12,680
Speaker 14: It also can be just an extended term tourist visa

2915
02:45:13,520 --> 02:45:16,120
Speaker 14: and you can do certain jobs but not other jobs,

2916
02:45:16,280 --> 02:45:18,520
Speaker 14: and you still get paid at home where you were

2917
02:45:18,520 --> 02:45:20,680
Speaker 14: on to B one, which seems to be what these

2918
02:45:20,720 --> 02:45:23,800
Speaker 14: people were doing. Right, Like, they can supervise construction on

2919
02:45:23,800 --> 02:45:25,600
Speaker 14: a B one, but you can't do construction, and it

2920
02:45:25,600 --> 02:45:27,600
Speaker 14: would make sense for people who are very expert in

2921
02:45:27,600 --> 02:45:31,560
Speaker 14: the construction of these highly technical buildings to supervise that construction.

2922
02:45:32,280 --> 02:45:34,920
Speaker 7: It seems that they were in the country to supervise

2923
02:45:35,480 --> 02:45:37,920
Speaker 7: the setting up of this car plant.

2924
02:45:38,200 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 14: Correct, Yeah, most South Koreans can also get est visa waivers,

2925
02:45:41,959 --> 02:45:44,080
Speaker 14: which like it's not exactly the same, but it's kind

2926
02:45:44,120 --> 02:45:45,880
Speaker 14: of a ninety day B one visa.

2927
02:45:46,560 --> 02:45:49,000
Speaker 8: So there are some people who cannot.

2928
02:45:48,680 --> 02:45:51,120
Speaker 14: Right like, if they have been cremated of crimes in

2929
02:45:51,160 --> 02:45:53,760
Speaker 14: such that they'd have to go through the B one process.

2930
02:45:54,080 --> 02:45:55,400
Speaker 7: But it seems very.

2931
02:45:55,320 --> 02:45:57,720
Speaker 14: Unlikely at least that that they were not in the

2932
02:45:57,800 --> 02:46:01,959
Speaker 14: country without any documentation and because like that would be

2933
02:46:01,959 --> 02:46:03,560
Speaker 14: a stranging to do when they can get a best

2934
02:46:03,560 --> 02:46:06,480
Speaker 14: of visa waiver. What's really weird about this is the

2935
02:46:06,520 --> 02:46:10,840
Speaker 14: state of Georgia has invested millions, if not billions, in

2936
02:46:10,920 --> 02:46:14,480
Speaker 14: bringing this plant to Georgia. Right, it has created a

2937
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:18,800
Speaker 14: significant economic boost. Something like ninety percent of the products

2938
02:46:18,800 --> 02:46:21,640
Speaker 14: that go into the car come from there. So there

2939
02:46:21,640 --> 02:46:24,560
Speaker 14: are lots of small businesses and local businesses that have

2940
02:46:24,600 --> 02:46:29,440
Speaker 14: started up to provide this factory with the goods it needs.

2941
02:46:29,959 --> 02:46:31,640
Speaker 14: You know, there are all the other services that come

2942
02:46:31,680 --> 02:46:35,000
Speaker 14: with that. Right, Like, it's brought economic benefit to the region.

2943
02:46:35,360 --> 02:46:38,039
Speaker 14: I know the state has spent more than three hundred

2944
02:46:38,120 --> 02:46:43,000
Speaker 14: million on improving the roads. Apparently they've deepened ports in

2945
02:46:43,080 --> 02:46:47,040
Speaker 14: some regions to allow larger, larger ships to arrive. It's

2946
02:46:47,080 --> 02:46:51,240
Speaker 14: bought in over twelve billion investment, more than eight thousand jobs.

2947
02:46:51,800 --> 02:46:54,920
Speaker 14: It's received massive tax breaks. It's going to total over

2948
02:46:55,120 --> 02:46:58,039
Speaker 14: two billion dollars according to reporting that are link to

2949
02:46:58,680 --> 02:47:04,880
Speaker 14: in the notes. Yet, Georgia State Police blocked off roads

2950
02:47:04,920 --> 02:47:08,080
Speaker 14: as part of the raid, and it was Georgia Department

2951
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:11,720
Speaker 14: of Corrections buses that took people away. This seems an

2952
02:47:11,720 --> 02:47:15,400
Speaker 14: odd choice for Kemp. Brian Kemp, right, Georgia governor. He's

2953
02:47:15,400 --> 02:47:19,400
Speaker 14: not Trump's favorite. Maybe he's trying to become Trump's favorite,

2954
02:47:19,720 --> 02:47:24,039
Speaker 14: but previously even Republicans in Georgia have been very behind this.

2955
02:47:24,280 --> 02:47:26,400
Speaker 14: I mean, Garrison, you lived in Georgia for a bit, right,

2956
02:47:26,560 --> 02:47:29,280
Speaker 14: this was a thing that, yeah, the Republicans has supported,

2957
02:47:29,360 --> 02:47:31,680
Speaker 14: a way to revitalize a place where there wasn't much

2958
02:47:31,720 --> 02:47:33,119
Speaker 14: economic opportunity before.

2959
02:47:33,400 --> 02:47:35,840
Speaker 7: Well, and this follows the whole point of Trump's tariffs.

2960
02:47:35,840 --> 02:47:39,040
Speaker 7: We're trying to bring, Yeah, manufacturing to the United States.

2961
02:47:39,240 --> 02:47:43,760
Speaker 7: You have these specialized workers to help supervise the construction

2962
02:47:43,920 --> 02:47:46,920
Speaker 7: and managing of equipment. They get this plant up and running.

2963
02:47:47,440 --> 02:47:49,600
Speaker 7: And even if you're even if you're doing that, even

2964
02:47:49,600 --> 02:47:52,400
Speaker 7: if you're bringing manufacturing back to the States, somehow you

2965
02:47:52,480 --> 02:47:57,119
Speaker 7: still get bitten, Yeah, big time, bitten by the Trump horse.

2966
02:47:57,240 --> 02:47:58,400
Speaker 8: I guess yeah.

2967
02:47:58,480 --> 02:48:00,840
Speaker 14: I mean it does sort of line up with this

2968
02:48:01,000 --> 02:48:04,039
Speaker 14: working closer to the Feurer hypothesis, right that you have

2969
02:48:04,120 --> 02:48:06,600
Speaker 14: these counter valent impulses and everyone's just trying to do

2970
02:48:06,680 --> 02:48:09,400
Speaker 14: things that they think Trump will like, and kind of

2971
02:48:09,560 --> 02:48:12,520
Speaker 14: sometimes those can directly contradict each other, as is happening here.

2972
02:48:12,520 --> 02:48:14,920
Speaker 14: There's not really a coherent policy platform.

2973
02:48:15,640 --> 02:48:17,840
Speaker 7: No, they're just so focused on trying to get like

2974
02:48:17,920 --> 02:48:21,120
Speaker 7: the base numbers up, to get the number of deportations

2975
02:48:21,160 --> 02:48:22,160
Speaker 7: higher than it's ever been.

2976
02:48:22,480 --> 02:48:22,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2977
02:48:23,200 --> 02:48:25,600
Speaker 14: And therefore, and you have this this sort of series

2978
02:48:25,640 --> 02:48:28,640
Speaker 14: of impulses which motivate Trump is and one of which

2979
02:48:28,680 --> 02:48:30,480
Speaker 14: is deport as many people as possible.

2980
02:48:30,560 --> 02:48:30,760
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2981
02:48:31,000 --> 02:48:35,960
Speaker 14: Another is broadly bring manufacturing jobs back to America, but

2982
02:48:36,040 --> 02:48:39,360
Speaker 14: not if foreign people are helping supervise the construction. I

2983
02:48:39,360 --> 02:48:43,400
Speaker 14: guess Understandably, South Carea is very upset. More so, I

2984
02:48:43,440 --> 02:48:46,000
Speaker 14: think because these are like middle class professionals who have

2985
02:48:46,040 --> 02:48:49,680
Speaker 14: been detained. Right, they appear to have negotiated a voluntary

2986
02:48:49,720 --> 02:48:53,240
Speaker 14: departure for these people, which it's not like a voluntary

2987
02:48:53,240 --> 02:48:55,400
Speaker 14: departure like you came on toil they Disney landed, you're

2988
02:48:55,440 --> 02:48:57,440
Speaker 14: going home on the plane. It can still have long

2989
02:48:57,520 --> 02:49:00,480
Speaker 14: term consequences. But the hope there is that that won't

2990
02:49:01,120 --> 02:49:03,520
Speaker 14: make it harder for these people to get US visas

2991
02:49:03,560 --> 02:49:05,960
Speaker 14: in the future. They have to come back, because obviously

2992
02:49:06,280 --> 02:49:08,680
Speaker 14: it's going to be very hard for this company to

2993
02:49:08,680 --> 02:49:10,760
Speaker 14: build a plant in Georgia if they can't bring any

2994
02:49:10,800 --> 02:49:12,040
Speaker 14: of their staff to Georgia.

2995
02:49:13,120 --> 02:49:14,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, that is about all I have.

2996
02:49:15,240 --> 02:49:18,039
Speaker 14: I'm going to keep looking, especially this Georgia story, see

2997
02:49:18,040 --> 02:49:21,560
Speaker 14: if it develops any further, and if it's worthy of

2998
02:49:21,560 --> 02:49:22,240
Speaker 14: a whole episode.

2999
02:49:22,280 --> 02:49:23,760
Speaker 8: We'll we'll do a whole episode on that.

3000
02:49:24,240 --> 02:49:29,760
Speaker 7: Speaking of Georgia, the long delayed Cop City reco case

3001
02:49:30,000 --> 02:49:34,480
Speaker 7: has finally made some progress in the courts. I have

3002
02:49:34,640 --> 02:49:39,120
Speaker 7: been working on the final scripted piece of my Cop

3003
02:49:39,160 --> 02:49:42,800
Speaker 7: City coverage for basically this whole summer. I've been slowly

3004
02:49:42,840 --> 02:49:44,959
Speaker 7: chipping away at it. Part of the reason why I

3005
02:49:44,959 --> 02:49:48,360
Speaker 7: have not finished that yet is because essentially the whole

3006
02:49:48,840 --> 02:49:52,800
Speaker 7: court case, like the sixty one defendant Rico case, got

3007
02:49:52,840 --> 02:49:57,480
Speaker 7: reset in May. They changed judges, and that has delayed

3008
02:49:57,480 --> 02:50:00,520
Speaker 7: an already long delayed case even further. I was waiting

3009
02:50:00,600 --> 02:50:02,760
Speaker 7: to see a little bit of the results of the

3010
02:50:02,760 --> 02:50:04,520
Speaker 7: court case, or at least get a better indication where

3011
02:50:04,520 --> 02:50:06,240
Speaker 7: the court case is going to go before I finish

3012
02:50:06,360 --> 02:50:09,879
Speaker 7: that final piece. And we're going to get that final

3013
02:50:09,920 --> 02:50:12,240
Speaker 7: piece out properly in the next six month or two here,

3014
02:50:12,959 --> 02:50:16,320
Speaker 7: but I will give this small update because it's pretty substantial.

3015
02:50:16,800 --> 02:50:20,440
Speaker 7: This past Tuesday, September ninth, the defense successfully argued that

3016
02:50:20,520 --> 02:50:24,519
Speaker 7: the State Attorney General's office did not have the jurisdictional

3017
02:50:24,520 --> 02:50:28,520
Speaker 7: authority to prosecute the sixty one defendants under the state's

3018
02:50:28,600 --> 02:50:32,600
Speaker 7: reco statute. This was due to simple procedural error in

3019
02:50:32,600 --> 02:50:35,480
Speaker 7: neglecting to first ask Governor Brian Kemp if the AG's

3020
02:50:35,520 --> 02:50:38,160
Speaker 7: office could prosecute the case. Judge Farmer found that the

3021
02:50:38,200 --> 02:50:40,520
Speaker 7: AG does not have the authority to prosecute Count one

3022
02:50:40,720 --> 02:50:44,040
Speaker 7: of the Rico indictment, which is the racketeering and conspiracy

3023
02:50:44,080 --> 02:50:49,160
Speaker 7: charges affecting sixty one people. So without the sweeping Rico

3024
02:50:49,320 --> 02:50:53,160
Speaker 7: charges in golfing the sixty one defendants, just five defendants

3025
02:50:53,240 --> 02:50:56,000
Speaker 7: would be left with Count two of the indictment, the

3026
02:50:56,040 --> 02:51:00,760
Speaker 7: domestic terrorism charges, which the AG does have the authority prosecute,

3027
02:51:01,120 --> 02:51:05,440
Speaker 7: and Count three, which is the arson charge, which Judge

3028
02:51:05,440 --> 02:51:09,080
Speaker 7: Farmer indicated could be thrown out on a similar technicality

3029
02:51:09,160 --> 02:51:13,480
Speaker 7: as the racketeering and conspiracy charges. This is still heavily

3030
02:51:13,720 --> 02:51:16,760
Speaker 7: in flux. The prosecution is going to appeal this decision,

3031
02:51:17,360 --> 02:51:20,800
Speaker 7: and it's unclear how this ruling will affect how the

3032
02:51:20,840 --> 02:51:24,440
Speaker 7: rest of the Copcity case will unfold, as removal of

3033
02:51:24,520 --> 02:51:28,520
Speaker 7: the Rico charges kind of undermines the rest of the indictment.

3034
02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:32,400
Speaker 7: On Wednesday, they were arguing about the constitutionality of George's

3035
02:51:32,400 --> 02:51:35,120
Speaker 7: domestic terrorism statute, which has never been tested in course before,

3036
02:51:35,520 --> 02:51:37,600
Speaker 7: so a lot of this case is currently up in

3037
02:51:37,600 --> 02:51:40,760
Speaker 7: the air, but this is a positive sign for the

3038
02:51:40,879 --> 02:51:46,760
Speaker 7: defendants at this point. One brief RFK Junior update. I

3039
02:51:46,800 --> 02:51:51,680
Speaker 7: guess RFK Juniors soon to be released autism report from

3040
02:51:51,879 --> 02:51:56,520
Speaker 7: HHS is reportedly going to include the claim that use

3041
02:51:56,560 --> 02:52:01,279
Speaker 7: of tailanol during pregnancy could cause autoism in children.

3042
02:52:01,720 --> 02:52:02,720
Speaker 6: Jesus Christ.

3043
02:52:03,040 --> 02:52:07,640
Speaker 7: This is not believed to be true by reputable medical authorities,

3044
02:52:08,360 --> 02:52:11,400
Speaker 7: but the report is set to release some time in September.

3045
02:52:11,480 --> 02:52:14,680
Speaker 7: It was announced like months ago when Aarvika Junior said

3046
02:52:14,720 --> 02:52:17,800
Speaker 7: that by September we will finally know the cause of

3047
02:52:17,840 --> 02:52:21,440
Speaker 7: autism quote quote, And it seems the report is still

3048
02:52:21,520 --> 02:52:24,480
Speaker 7: churning away but set to be released this month, and

3049
02:52:24,520 --> 02:52:26,680
Speaker 7: it will include a few other claims, which we will

3050
02:52:26,680 --> 02:52:29,279
Speaker 7: report on in more detail once the report is actually out.

3051
02:52:29,360 --> 02:52:32,000
Speaker 7: But the Wall Street Journal got this little heads up

3052
02:52:32,120 --> 02:52:35,240
Speaker 7: about the Thailand all inclusion in the report.

3053
02:52:35,879 --> 02:52:36,560
Speaker 8: Fantastic.

3054
02:52:37,400 --> 02:52:40,400
Speaker 14: So I heard from somebody who is waiting on their

3055
02:52:40,440 --> 02:52:43,160
Speaker 14: work permit. A Kurdish woman who came to the United

3056
02:52:43,200 --> 02:52:48,080
Speaker 14: States to claim asylum from Turkey from Northern Kurdistan, and

3057
02:52:49,680 --> 02:52:51,560
Speaker 14: because she doesn't have a work permit yet and she's

3058
02:52:51,560 --> 02:52:54,160
Speaker 14: gonna be waiting for her work permit. Sometime she's asking

3059
02:52:54,200 --> 02:52:56,600
Speaker 14: for help to cover her basic sort of day to

3060
02:52:56,720 --> 02:53:00,000
Speaker 14: day expenses. And this is a thing that people often

3061
02:53:00,040 --> 02:53:03,240
Speaker 14: find themselves in a situation. Right, they have come here,

3062
02:53:03,600 --> 02:53:05,320
Speaker 14: done all the documentation, but it can take a long

3063
02:53:05,320 --> 02:53:07,400
Speaker 14: time to get their work permit, and without friends or family,

3064
02:53:07,480 --> 02:53:08,080
Speaker 14: it can be very.

3065
02:53:07,959 --> 02:53:08,480
Speaker 3: Hard for them.

3066
02:53:09,800 --> 02:53:14,720
Speaker 14: The website is gofund dot me slash DA thirty nine

3067
02:53:15,000 --> 02:53:19,680
Speaker 14: F seven D zero B. We'll have that link in

3068
02:53:19,680 --> 02:53:23,040
Speaker 14: the show notes as well. If you'd like to email us,

3069
02:53:23,080 --> 02:53:25,120
Speaker 14: you can do so. The way to do it is

3070
02:53:25,160 --> 02:53:28,280
Speaker 14: to reach out to cool Zone tips at proton dot me.

3071
02:53:28,720 --> 02:53:30,240
Speaker 8: That is an encrypted email address.

3072
02:53:30,720 --> 02:53:33,320
Speaker 14: All that means is that you will have to also

3073
02:53:33,440 --> 02:53:35,240
Speaker 14: use an encrypted email address if you like it to

3074
02:53:35,280 --> 02:53:37,359
Speaker 14: be end to end encrypted.

3075
02:53:38,120 --> 02:53:54,600
Speaker 2: All right, and here's some ads. We're back and I

3076
02:53:54,640 --> 02:53:58,359
Speaker 2: guess it's time to drop some bars about Jeffrey Epstein.

3077
02:53:58,840 --> 02:54:00,240
Speaker 7: Somehow Epstein has returned learned.

3078
02:54:00,520 --> 02:54:02,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that joke. It always gets old.

3079
02:54:04,240 --> 02:54:06,440
Speaker 2: So one of the big pieces of news this week

3080
02:54:06,520 --> 02:54:09,680
Speaker 2: before the thing that we started the episode with, I mean,

3081
02:54:09,680 --> 02:54:13,400
Speaker 2: this was the story before that happened, is that, as

3082
02:54:13,400 --> 02:54:17,040
Speaker 2: a result of the ongoing investigation into Epstein and whether

3083
02:54:17,120 --> 02:54:19,880
Speaker 2: or not you know how involved was Trump, how involved

3084
02:54:19,879 --> 02:54:24,560
Speaker 2: were Democrats? What do we care that the book, the

3085
02:54:24,600 --> 02:54:28,359
Speaker 2: first fifty years birthday book, that that drawing that Trump

3086
02:54:28,800 --> 02:54:32,600
Speaker 2: is accused of having done, where he signed his name

3087
02:54:32,680 --> 02:54:37,000
Speaker 2: as the pubic care of a very obviously young girl

3088
02:54:37,879 --> 02:54:40,520
Speaker 2: with a poem that seemed to hint at child molestation.

3089
02:54:41,440 --> 02:54:45,600
Speaker 2: That the whole book that Epstein had has has been

3090
02:54:45,840 --> 02:54:49,040
Speaker 2: released to Congress and is now public right now.

3091
02:54:49,120 --> 02:54:51,720
Speaker 7: We did Democrats on the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed the

3092
02:54:51,760 --> 02:54:55,080
Speaker 7: Epstein birthday book from Jeffrey Epstein's estate once the estate

3093
02:54:55,160 --> 02:54:57,440
Speaker 7: made a statement saying that they have the book and

3094
02:54:57,440 --> 02:54:59,320
Speaker 7: wouldn't cooperate with a subpoena.

3095
02:54:59,400 --> 02:55:02,680
Speaker 2: And there's a a bunch of news articles summarizing it.

3096
02:55:02,720 --> 02:55:04,879
Speaker 2: If you want to read the thing for yourself, just

3097
02:55:04,959 --> 02:55:08,840
Speaker 2: google document cloud Jeffrey Epstein fiftieth Birthday Book, and the

3098
02:55:08,879 --> 02:55:09,640
Speaker 2: whole thing is in there.

3099
02:55:09,680 --> 02:55:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3100
02:55:10,120 --> 02:55:13,320
Speaker 14: Right, I would say, like just the kind of slight devotion,

3101
02:55:13,440 --> 02:55:16,720
Speaker 14: I guess between this and Charlie kirkshooting, maybe.

3102
02:55:16,440 --> 02:55:18,520
Speaker 7: You don't need to give yourself a break.

3103
02:55:19,200 --> 02:55:20,160
Speaker 5: I'm not saying you should.

3104
02:55:21,000 --> 02:55:22,640
Speaker 2: I just wanted to let people know where they can

3105
02:55:22,680 --> 02:55:25,000
Speaker 2: get to the original source if they don't want to

3106
02:55:25,000 --> 02:55:27,600
Speaker 2: have it mediated by a media, right.

3107
02:55:27,560 --> 02:55:28,600
Speaker 8: It's always good to do that.

3108
02:55:29,080 --> 02:55:30,960
Speaker 5: We're going to mediate it for you now.

3109
02:55:31,080 --> 02:55:31,280
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3110
02:55:32,200 --> 02:55:34,119
Speaker 2: So it opens, as far as I can tell. The

3111
02:55:34,240 --> 02:55:37,160
Speaker 2: first well, I mean, there's there's a list of contents.

3112
02:55:37,280 --> 02:55:41,560
Speaker 2: The prologue is written by Gilan Maxwell. Then there's letters

3113
02:55:41,560 --> 02:55:44,760
Speaker 2: from the family, Paula Seymour and Marco I guess your relatives.

3114
02:55:45,160 --> 02:55:47,640
Speaker 2: Then it's split into Brooklyn. So there's friends of his

3115
02:55:47,720 --> 02:55:51,760
Speaker 2: from Brooklyn who are Warren Eisenstein, neutral, I don't know

3116
02:55:51,760 --> 02:55:54,880
Speaker 2: who that is, Terry Kafka. Very funny that there's a

3117
02:55:54,920 --> 02:55:59,280
Speaker 2: Kafka involved, doctor Stephen Levy, and Michael Bookoles. The next

3118
02:55:59,480 --> 02:56:03,000
Speaker 2: section is all girlfriends, their letters from girlfriends. All of

3119
02:56:03,000 --> 02:56:05,240
Speaker 2: those names have been blacked out for reasons that should

3120
02:56:05,280 --> 02:56:08,959
Speaker 2: be obvious. The section after that is children. God almighty,

3121
02:56:09,000 --> 02:56:11,400
Speaker 2: I don't know whose kids because this is blacked out too,

3122
02:56:11,840 --> 02:56:14,760
Speaker 2: but oh boy. Yeah, and then we get to the

3123
02:56:14,760 --> 02:56:17,080
Speaker 2: section that is friends. That is all the letters from friends,

3124
02:56:17,160 --> 02:56:20,600
Speaker 2: and the friends are Leon Black is on there, Bill

3125
02:56:20,640 --> 02:56:24,360
Speaker 2: Clinton is on there, Alan Dershowitz is on there. The

3126
02:56:24,400 --> 02:56:26,240
Speaker 2: dersh himself.

3127
02:56:25,800 --> 02:56:29,720
Speaker 7: Is the letter is really unsettling.

3128
02:56:29,959 --> 02:56:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Donald Trump is in there. We'll get to that

3129
02:56:32,640 --> 02:56:34,680
Speaker 2: in a second. Yet, Donald Trump is in there, obviously

3130
02:56:35,040 --> 02:56:38,199
Speaker 2: these are not. Morton Zuckerman is on there, Leslie Wexner

3131
02:56:38,440 --> 02:56:41,160
Speaker 2: is on there. So a number of like very prominent

3132
02:56:41,160 --> 02:56:43,440
Speaker 2: people unknown is at the very end. I don't know

3133
02:56:43,760 --> 02:56:46,000
Speaker 2: like that. That's like literally how the book listed it.

3134
02:56:46,120 --> 02:56:48,640
Speaker 2: So they just have a letter from someone who's presumably

3135
02:56:48,720 --> 02:56:50,320
Speaker 2: his friend but didn't put a name.

3136
02:56:51,160 --> 02:56:53,840
Speaker 14: I mean, it's it's a smart move if you're doing

3137
02:56:53,879 --> 02:56:55,480
Speaker 14: things which you have federal crimes.

3138
02:56:55,720 --> 02:56:57,959
Speaker 2: And then after that you've got the letters from scientists

3139
02:56:58,040 --> 02:57:00,600
Speaker 2: friends of his, which include people we brought up on

3140
02:57:00,640 --> 02:57:03,640
Speaker 2: my episode about a bioscience company who pretends that they're

3141
02:57:03,640 --> 02:57:08,240
Speaker 2: cloning dire wolves and Martin Noak are both on here,

3142
02:57:08,320 --> 02:57:11,280
Speaker 2: so that's great, oh good. And then after that, I

3143
02:57:11,360 --> 02:57:14,440
Speaker 2: just noted girlfriends is like the third group of people

3144
02:57:14,480 --> 02:57:16,400
Speaker 2: who had letters, and all those names were blacked out.

3145
02:57:16,400 --> 02:57:20,480
Speaker 2: But then under science there's another section that's girl dash

3146
02:57:20,560 --> 02:57:24,160
Speaker 2: friends that's longer, and all of those names are blacked out.

3147
02:57:24,520 --> 02:57:29,800
Speaker 2: No fucking idea what that is supposed to meet. But upsetting, Okay, it's.

3148
02:57:29,640 --> 02:57:30,680
Speaker 8: No good whatever it is.

3149
02:57:30,959 --> 02:57:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, There's some more names on there, but they're

3150
02:57:34,160 --> 02:57:40,160
Speaker 2: not super relevant. Gilan Maxwell's prologue is handwritten, or at

3151
02:57:40,200 --> 02:57:42,560
Speaker 2: least the note in front of it is handwritten. I

3152
02:57:42,600 --> 02:57:44,800
Speaker 2: know you will enjoy looking through the book, and I

3153
02:57:44,840 --> 02:57:48,280
Speaker 2: hope you will derive as much pleasure looking through it

3154
02:57:48,320 --> 02:57:52,240
Speaker 2: as I did putting it together for you. Happy birthday, Love,

3155
02:57:52,360 --> 02:57:57,160
Speaker 2: Gilan Maxwell. So that's the prologue. One of the first pictures,

3156
02:57:57,200 --> 02:57:59,400
Speaker 2: I mean, the first picture in the book is Jeffrey

3157
02:57:59,400 --> 02:58:04,039
Speaker 2: Epstein's standing around with a bunch of soldiers. They look like,

3158
02:58:04,440 --> 02:58:07,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I would guess from some African country. They're

3159
02:58:07,840 --> 02:58:11,160
Speaker 2: all in a camo pattern that's not immediately familiar to me.

3160
02:58:11,640 --> 02:58:15,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, I can't fully read what it says down here.

3161
02:58:16,080 --> 02:58:18,280
Speaker 2: Some of the line say something about a president and

3162
02:58:18,440 --> 02:58:21,000
Speaker 2: the Secret Service to greet you. I don't know who

3163
02:58:21,040 --> 02:58:23,720
Speaker 2: these soldiers were that Jeffrey's standing around. I kind of

3164
02:58:23,720 --> 02:58:26,040
Speaker 2: want to know, but it's a weird photo to start.

3165
02:58:26,480 --> 02:58:29,360
Speaker 2: And then immediately after that is Jeffrey Epstein's cub scout

3166
02:58:29,400 --> 02:58:33,320
Speaker 2: graduation photo. They've got that in there. It's just a

3167
02:58:33,320 --> 02:58:36,000
Speaker 2: bunch of like pictures of Epstein throughout his life. Like

3168
02:58:36,040 --> 02:58:38,160
Speaker 2: that's kind of how this thing opens before we get

3169
02:58:38,200 --> 02:58:41,480
Speaker 2: down to the letters. Yeah, one thing I wanted to

3170
02:58:41,520 --> 02:58:44,080
Speaker 2: get at there. So there's on page fifty seven there's

3171
02:58:44,080 --> 02:58:46,240
Speaker 2: a photo of Jeffrey Epstein wearing a weird shirt with

3172
02:58:46,240 --> 02:58:48,080
Speaker 2: a bunch of handprints on it when he was younger.

3173
02:58:48,720 --> 02:58:51,920
Speaker 2: That's just titled girls on my Boat. We picked up

3174
02:58:51,959 --> 02:58:54,440
Speaker 2: girls on beach, went out on boat. I tell them

3175
02:58:54,480 --> 02:58:56,800
Speaker 2: with knife in my hand, to take suits off. But

3176
02:58:56,879 --> 02:58:59,680
Speaker 2: Warren tells me, don't worry. His name is Jahan. He's

3177
02:58:59,720 --> 02:59:02,320
Speaker 2: just joking. He lives at so and so I tell

3178
02:59:02,360 --> 02:59:05,440
Speaker 2: Mark to throw him into water. He did no idea

3179
02:59:05,720 --> 02:59:08,720
Speaker 2: what the fuck that's about. But like a lot of

3180
02:59:08,720 --> 02:59:11,600
Speaker 2: it's like that is like very upsetting stories that are

3181
02:59:11,600 --> 02:59:16,039
Speaker 2: handwritten crudely, I think, and often by Gillan. But yeah,

3182
02:59:16,080 --> 02:59:20,480
Speaker 2: it's it's it's like pretty deeply upsetting stuff. Okay, I

3183
02:59:20,920 --> 02:59:22,840
Speaker 2: do kind of want to read this Bill Elks letter.

3184
02:59:23,440 --> 02:59:25,920
Speaker 2: It just starts with it's no secret that Jeffrey appreciates

3185
02:59:25,959 --> 02:59:28,360
Speaker 2: beautiful women that not many people know. He can create

3186
02:59:28,400 --> 02:59:29,959
Speaker 2: them at a thin ware air, as he did in

3187
02:59:30,040 --> 02:59:31,560
Speaker 2: Iowa in nineteen eighty eight.

3188
02:59:32,520 --> 02:59:36,280
Speaker 14: Good to give a place in times that are illegal.

3189
02:59:36,640 --> 02:59:39,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy says that he was managing the money

3190
02:59:39,320 --> 02:59:43,520
Speaker 2: of a family who lived in Fairfield, Iowa. Hog farming

3191
02:59:43,600 --> 02:59:45,560
Speaker 2: is a serious industry there, and many people feel there

3192
02:59:45,600 --> 02:59:46,959
Speaker 2: is more than a little truth in the saying that

3193
02:59:47,000 --> 02:59:48,720
Speaker 2: it's hard to tell the difference between the girls and

3194
02:59:48,760 --> 02:59:52,320
Speaker 2: the hogs in southeast Iowa. Jeffrey came to Fairfield to

3195
02:59:52,400 --> 02:59:56,240
Speaker 2: check in on their investigation on their investment opportunities. He

3196
02:59:56,320 --> 02:59:58,520
Speaker 2: asked about the nightlife and we could only laugh as

3197
02:59:58,520 --> 02:59:59,959
Speaker 2: we dropped him off at the local motel.

3198
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:00,160
Speaker 6: Well.

3199
03:00:00,160 --> 03:00:01,680
Speaker 2: The next morning, a group before of us picked up

3200
03:00:01,720 --> 03:00:03,240
Speaker 2: Jeffrey to give him a tour of the area. At

3201
03:00:03,240 --> 03:00:04,959
Speaker 2: our first stop, we parked in front of a bookstore.

3202
03:00:04,959 --> 03:00:07,280
Speaker 2: As we were getting out of the car, a spectacular, tall,

3203
03:00:07,280 --> 03:00:09,520
Speaker 2: blonde woman suddenly came out of the store, walked directly

3204
03:00:09,600 --> 03:00:11,680
Speaker 2: up to Jeffrey and announced, I am new to this area.

3205
03:00:11,800 --> 03:00:14,200
Speaker 2: What's going on? It turns out she was a sales

3206
03:00:14,240 --> 03:00:17,360
Speaker 2: representative for a firm solling academic brand and athletic clothing.

3207
03:00:17,360 --> 03:00:20,640
Speaker 2: She was literally driving through Iowa visiting local campuses. Jeffrey

3208
03:00:20,680 --> 03:00:23,040
Speaker 2: invited her to join us and did his magic. Within

3209
03:00:23,080 --> 03:00:24,879
Speaker 2: a few hours, he had invited her to return to

3210
03:00:24,879 --> 03:00:27,600
Speaker 2: New York with him for the weekend. Yeah, a lot

3211
03:00:27,640 --> 03:00:33,199
Speaker 2: of stuff like that. We should probably read Dershowitz's letter.

3212
03:00:33,560 --> 03:00:37,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, what seck, Yeah, you can do that.

3213
03:00:37,560 --> 03:00:42,120
Speaker 2: Okay, here's Dershowitz's Who was that Man with Epstein? Is

3214
03:00:42,200 --> 03:00:44,760
Speaker 2: the title of the letter. Inquiring minds are asking who

3215
03:00:44,800 --> 03:00:46,920
Speaker 2: is that man with Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein is, of course

3216
03:00:46,959 --> 03:00:48,880
Speaker 2: one of the world's most famous men, a household name

3217
03:00:48,920 --> 03:00:51,280
Speaker 2: throughout the planet. His picture has appeared on the cover

3218
03:00:51,320 --> 03:00:53,640
Speaker 2: of every magazine in the world. Everyone knows his story,

3219
03:00:53,640 --> 03:00:56,240
Speaker 2: from his humble roots on Coney Island to his rise

3220
03:00:56,280 --> 03:00:57,800
Speaker 2: to one of the most envied public figures in the

3221
03:00:57,840 --> 03:01:00,000
Speaker 2: Western world. But what is he doing flying to Africa

3222
03:01:00,160 --> 03:01:03,480
Speaker 2: with an obscure former politician from Hope, Arkansas. Who is

3223
03:01:03,480 --> 03:01:05,400
Speaker 2: that politician? And why would Epstein have picked him for

3224
03:01:05,440 --> 03:01:08,600
Speaker 2: the coveted seat on his private jet. Vanity Unfair was

3225
03:01:08,600 --> 03:01:10,480
Speaker 2: determined to get to the bottom of this mystery man

3226
03:01:10,520 --> 03:01:12,600
Speaker 2: and to reveal the story behind the story. Normally, we

3227
03:01:12,600 --> 03:01:14,680
Speaker 2: would not pry into the private life of an obscure

3228
03:01:14,760 --> 03:01:17,720
Speaker 2: Arkansas politician, particularly one who has tried so hard up

3229
03:01:17,800 --> 03:01:20,320
Speaker 2: to now so successfully to keep his private life to himself.

3230
03:01:20,560 --> 03:01:22,880
Speaker 2: But the moment this obscure man stepped under the Epstein jet,

3231
03:01:22,920 --> 03:01:25,360
Speaker 2: he became fair game for probing inquiry. Why would a

3232
03:01:25,360 --> 03:01:27,680
Speaker 2: man like Epstein, who can pick and choose his companions

3233
03:01:27,680 --> 03:01:30,080
Speaker 2: from princes to professors, select a flying companion from the

3234
03:01:30,120 --> 03:01:32,360
Speaker 2: Ozark Mountains. To be sure, he was a Rhodes scholar,

3235
03:01:32,560 --> 03:01:33,960
Speaker 2: but we all know how easy it is to get

3236
03:01:33,959 --> 03:01:36,320
Speaker 2: a roads if you're from Arkansas. There must be something else.

3237
03:01:36,400 --> 03:01:40,119
Speaker 2: Vanity Unfair decided to snoop around this obscure politician reluctantly

3238
03:01:40,120 --> 03:01:42,480
Speaker 2: agreed to be to an interview on the express condition

3239
03:01:42,520 --> 03:01:44,320
Speaker 2: that it was completely off the record. This is what

3240
03:01:44,360 --> 03:01:47,480
Speaker 2: he told us, and then it's blank. The letter ends.

3241
03:01:48,040 --> 03:01:52,160
Speaker 7: It comes with a note yes, reading Dear Jeffrey, As

3242
03:01:52,200 --> 03:01:54,480
Speaker 7: a birthday gift to you, I managed to obtain an

3243
03:01:54,520 --> 03:01:57,760
Speaker 7: early version of the Vanity Unfair article. I talked them

3244
03:01:57,760 --> 03:02:02,040
Speaker 7: into changing the focus from you to Bill Clinton. As

3245
03:02:02,080 --> 03:02:04,400
Speaker 7: you will see from the enclosed excerpt, Happy birthday in

3246
03:02:04,400 --> 03:02:05,080
Speaker 7: best regards.

3247
03:02:05,320 --> 03:02:09,720
Speaker 2: And then there's a fake Vanity Unfair article. Yeah or cover?

3248
03:02:10,640 --> 03:02:12,520
Speaker 5: Yeah? That who is Jack the Ripper?

3249
03:02:12,720 --> 03:02:12,840
Speaker 14: Was it?

3250
03:02:12,920 --> 03:02:16,480
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein? Al Qaeda in South America? Financed by Epstein

3251
03:02:16,640 --> 03:02:19,280
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein stole my heart in another courtroom dispatches. It's

3252
03:02:19,320 --> 03:02:22,440
Speaker 2: like really crudely animated, but yeah, yeah, I mean it's

3253
03:02:22,520 --> 03:02:26,120
Speaker 2: it's what do you even say? Oh, there is a

3254
03:02:26,240 --> 03:02:29,320
Speaker 2: quote the fat on the Vanity Fair cover attributed to

3255
03:02:29,320 --> 03:02:31,520
Speaker 2: Epstein that says life is a pure flame and we

3256
03:02:31,600 --> 03:02:34,320
Speaker 2: live by an invisible sun within us. So I guess

3257
03:02:34,360 --> 03:02:35,760
Speaker 2: that's a Jeffrey Epstein original.

3258
03:02:35,920 --> 03:02:37,160
Speaker 8: Wow, how profound.

3259
03:02:37,280 --> 03:02:39,440
Speaker 7: Before we talk about the Trump letter, there's this one

3260
03:02:39,520 --> 03:02:42,720
Speaker 7: other image I didn't like to discuss this what I

3261
03:02:42,720 --> 03:02:47,360
Speaker 7: can only described as a grooming themed drawing Oh God

3262
03:02:47,400 --> 03:02:50,680
Speaker 7: yeah to him as part of its birthday card, depicting

3263
03:02:50,760 --> 03:02:54,400
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Epstein in nineteen eighty three giving balloons in a

3264
03:02:54,440 --> 03:02:59,599
Speaker 7: lolly pomp to three young children girls like children, children.

3265
03:02:59,480 --> 03:03:02,920
Speaker 2: And importantly, his pockets are turned out out and the

3266
03:03:02,959 --> 03:03:05,600
Speaker 2: pants he's wearing are like patched and old. He's clearly

3267
03:03:05,680 --> 03:03:08,480
Speaker 2: poor in this. In nineteen eighty three, by the way,

3268
03:03:08,520 --> 03:03:10,800
Speaker 2: he was working as a tutor and a teacher, like

3269
03:03:10,920 --> 03:03:13,680
Speaker 2: he was teaching kids at private schools like, So that's

3270
03:03:13,680 --> 03:03:14,720
Speaker 2: what's represented here.

3271
03:03:15,400 --> 03:03:18,280
Speaker 7: The other section of the drawing is in two thousand

3272
03:03:18,280 --> 03:03:21,720
Speaker 7: and three and has Jeffrey Epstein sitting on the beach

3273
03:03:21,920 --> 03:03:24,040
Speaker 7: with four women touching his body.

3274
03:03:24,640 --> 03:03:28,440
Speaker 2: One woman is very clearly touching his genitals and has

3275
03:03:28,600 --> 03:03:30,480
Speaker 2: JE tattooed on her ass.

3276
03:03:30,920 --> 03:03:33,400
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Epstein's jet is flying above.

3277
03:03:34,080 --> 03:03:36,400
Speaker 2: You know it's his jet because the actual in number

3278
03:03:36,520 --> 03:03:38,680
Speaker 2: of his real jet is written on the side of

3279
03:03:38,720 --> 03:03:39,120
Speaker 2: the jet.

3280
03:03:40,360 --> 03:03:42,600
Speaker 7: And on the beach he is on a lawn chair

3281
03:03:42,680 --> 03:03:48,760
Speaker 7: outside of what sort of resembles Trump's Marlago resort in

3282
03:03:48,879 --> 03:03:51,959
Speaker 7: terms of the architectural style, the arched doorways, the tiered

3283
03:03:52,040 --> 03:03:54,600
Speaker 7: structure and lay out of the palm trees, and the beach.

3284
03:03:55,040 --> 03:03:59,760
Speaker 7: This building does not match his house in Florida, or

3285
03:03:59,800 --> 03:04:03,560
Speaker 7: his house in the Southwest, or his house on the island,

3286
03:04:03,640 --> 03:04:08,400
Speaker 7: which appears very different with blue roofing. I'm not saying

3287
03:04:08,440 --> 03:04:11,640
Speaker 7: this necessarily is mar A Lago, but if I were

3288
03:04:11,680 --> 03:04:14,360
Speaker 7: to try to draw mar A Lago from memory, it

3289
03:04:14,480 --> 03:04:18,520
Speaker 7: might look something like this. There's certainly a resemblance which

3290
03:04:19,120 --> 03:04:19,720
Speaker 7: is notable.

3291
03:04:20,360 --> 03:04:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should talk about literally. The next photo from

3292
03:04:23,280 --> 03:04:28,520
Speaker 2: this is a picture of Jeffrey Epstein holding a check

3293
03:04:28,600 --> 03:04:32,480
Speaker 2: for twenty two thousand dollars to him from Donald Trump.

3294
03:04:33,320 --> 03:04:36,480
Speaker 2: There's three people posing next to him. One of them

3295
03:04:36,760 --> 03:04:39,400
Speaker 2: is a woman whose face is blacked out. There's also

3296
03:04:39,440 --> 03:04:41,920
Speaker 2: another woman with her face blacked out behind them. But

3297
03:04:42,000 --> 03:04:43,800
Speaker 2: the man who's sitting next to the woman at what

3298
03:04:43,840 --> 03:04:46,320
Speaker 2: looks like a dinner table does not have his face

3299
03:04:46,360 --> 03:04:46,880
Speaker 2: blacked out.

3300
03:04:46,920 --> 03:04:47,680
Speaker 5: I don't know why.

3301
03:04:48,240 --> 03:04:51,040
Speaker 2: And it says on this Jeffrey is showing early talents

3302
03:04:51,080 --> 03:04:54,120
Speaker 2: with money and women cells fully depreciated. And then the

3303
03:04:54,200 --> 03:04:56,720
Speaker 2: name of the woman who is being sold is blacked

3304
03:04:56,760 --> 03:04:59,920
Speaker 2: out to Donald Trump for twenty two five hundred dollars.

3305
03:05:00,480 --> 03:05:03,360
Speaker 2: Shoot early people skills too. Even though I handled the deal,

3306
03:05:03,440 --> 03:05:05,600
Speaker 2: I didn't get any of the money for the girl.

3307
03:05:05,920 --> 03:05:07,679
Speaker 7: So pretty sickening.

3308
03:05:07,520 --> 03:05:12,440
Speaker 14: Joke, Yeah, yeah, genuinely like nauseating literally, yeah, like him

3309
03:05:12,480 --> 03:05:15,560
Speaker 14: holding up a check Donald Trump gave him for a girl.

3310
03:05:15,520 --> 03:05:18,520
Speaker 7: Like a fake novelty check signed by someone who's not Trump,

3311
03:05:18,640 --> 03:05:21,520
Speaker 7: just someone signing Donald Trump, not Donald Trump's signat JEM.

3312
03:05:21,640 --> 03:05:25,680
Speaker 7: But people joking. It's a bit about Jeffrey selling a

3313
03:05:25,720 --> 03:05:28,920
Speaker 7: woman to Trump four twenty two five hundred dollars?

3314
03:05:29,160 --> 03:05:32,520
Speaker 14: Was this a fully depreciated Is that the phrasing used,

3315
03:05:33,000 --> 03:05:37,199
Speaker 14: That is the phraseated? Yes, yes, yeah, it's fucking disgusting.

3316
03:05:38,040 --> 03:05:40,760
Speaker 2: And then we get down to the original Trump letter,

3317
03:05:40,800 --> 03:05:42,160
Speaker 2: which we've talked about on the show.

3318
03:05:42,400 --> 03:05:43,080
Speaker 5: We've read it to you.

3319
03:05:43,120 --> 03:05:46,160
Speaker 2: This is the one where's Donald says it's framed as

3320
03:05:46,160 --> 03:05:49,080
Speaker 2: a conversation between them, and Donald says, enigma's never age.

3321
03:05:49,120 --> 03:05:52,560
Speaker 2: Have you noticed that anyway? The only thing noteworthy about

3322
03:05:52,560 --> 03:05:54,680
Speaker 2: this is now we have the drawing of the woman.

3323
03:05:54,800 --> 03:05:59,240
Speaker 2: It's drawn around the script, and it's I would say,

3324
03:05:59,320 --> 03:06:03,640
Speaker 2: pretty clear a pubescent girl. Like there's breasts drawn on.

3325
03:06:03,640 --> 03:06:05,800
Speaker 7: Their breasts do not look fully developed, and they do

3326
03:06:05,879 --> 03:06:08,880
Speaker 7: not look they're not large like no, and the position

3327
03:06:09,000 --> 03:06:13,080
Speaker 7: of them is higher. They look like underdeveloped breasts.

3328
03:06:13,200 --> 03:06:15,560
Speaker 2: Yes, it looks like a drawing of a young girl,

3329
03:06:15,760 --> 03:06:17,480
Speaker 2: like of a child.

3330
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:22,160
Speaker 7: It's so much more creepy than anyone who like tried

3331
03:06:22,200 --> 03:06:24,039
Speaker 7: to draw what this might have looked like, has like

3332
03:06:24,080 --> 03:06:26,600
Speaker 7: previously imagined like they were all drawing you know, like

3333
03:06:26,840 --> 03:06:31,240
Speaker 7: conventionally attractive like adult female bodies. This is much more creepy.

3334
03:06:31,280 --> 03:06:34,520
Speaker 2: Now I will say, it doesn't look like his signature

3335
03:06:34,560 --> 03:06:35,959
Speaker 2: is meant to be pubic care here.

3336
03:06:36,200 --> 03:06:38,879
Speaker 7: It's in a similar position. But you know this is

3337
03:06:39,000 --> 03:06:42,440
Speaker 7: this is a very abstract drawing. Yes, his signature is

3338
03:06:42,560 --> 03:06:44,840
Speaker 7: just his first name, Donald, which he signs a lot

3339
03:06:44,879 --> 03:06:47,720
Speaker 7: of personal notes with not his full Donald Trump's signature.

3340
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:50,879
Speaker 7: Trump is maintaining that he did not sign this, that

3341
03:06:50,959 --> 03:06:53,640
Speaker 7: this is a forgery. He is unaware of this letter,

3342
03:06:53,760 --> 03:06:57,480
Speaker 7: even though the signature matches other signatures from him around

3343
03:06:57,480 --> 03:07:01,000
Speaker 7: this time. And this just feels like a very Donald

3344
03:07:01,040 --> 03:07:04,360
Speaker 7: Trump thing to do. Yeah, and is worded similarly to

3345
03:07:04,440 --> 03:07:07,520
Speaker 7: how he talked about women in this era. He now

3346
03:07:07,800 --> 03:07:09,760
Speaker 7: makes statements being like I don't talk this way all

3347
03:07:09,840 --> 03:07:12,680
Speaker 7: my everyone who knows me knows I don't talk this way.

3348
03:07:13,320 --> 03:07:15,640
Speaker 7: And if you watch like clips from Donald Trump in

3349
03:07:15,680 --> 03:07:18,160
Speaker 7: the early two thousands talking about women, it is this

3350
03:07:18,240 --> 03:07:21,840
Speaker 7: type of language. It is. It is very gross. Yeah,

3351
03:07:21,879 --> 03:07:24,360
Speaker 7: Like everyone remembers the Howard Stern clip, like come on.

3352
03:07:24,640 --> 03:07:26,560
Speaker 5: Right, oh yeah, No.

3353
03:07:27,440 --> 03:07:30,280
Speaker 2: It's also worth noting one of the last things in

3354
03:07:30,320 --> 03:07:34,440
Speaker 2: the book is recipe for like chocolate chip chip cookies.

3355
03:07:34,480 --> 03:07:36,440
Speaker 2: I try to figure out who put the recipe in there,

3356
03:07:36,440 --> 03:07:38,640
Speaker 2: but their name is blacked out. They're right under Henry

3357
03:07:38,680 --> 03:07:42,039
Speaker 2: Rossofsky and read above Les Wexner. I don't know who

3358
03:07:42,480 --> 03:07:45,480
Speaker 2: put that chocolate chip cookie recipe in here, but I

3359
03:07:45,640 --> 03:07:47,280
Speaker 2: might try to make those cookies.

3360
03:07:48,680 --> 03:07:51,640
Speaker 8: The epsteine biscuit I wouldn't eat those.

3361
03:07:52,080 --> 03:07:52,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3362
03:07:52,920 --> 03:07:55,959
Speaker 7: A few other things before we close this episode related

3363
03:07:56,000 --> 03:07:59,959
Speaker 7: to Epstein. On September, fifth House Speaker Mike Johnson told

3364
03:08:00,080 --> 03:08:06,040
Speaker 7: reporters that Trump was actually a secret FBI informant tasked

3365
03:08:06,080 --> 03:08:08,720
Speaker 7: with taking down Jeffrey Epstein.

3366
03:08:08,959 --> 03:08:12,279
Speaker 8: I hadn't heard it did a great job. Yeah, Well, I'm.

3367
03:08:12,120 --> 03:08:15,120
Speaker 17: Saying that when Epstein did as a hoax, it's a terrible,

3368
03:08:15,160 --> 03:08:17,240
Speaker 17: unspeakable evil. He believes that himself when he first heard

3369
03:08:17,240 --> 03:08:18,720
Speaker 17: the room where kicked Hm out of Mildago, who was

3370
03:08:18,720 --> 03:08:21,520
Speaker 17: an FBI informant to try to take this stuff down.

3371
03:08:21,800 --> 03:08:24,080
Speaker 17: The President knows and has great sympathy for the women

3372
03:08:24,120 --> 03:08:26,640
Speaker 17: who suffered these unspeakable arms. It's detestable to him, and

3373
03:08:26,720 --> 03:08:28,920
Speaker 17: I've spoken about this as recently as twenty hours ago.

3374
03:08:29,400 --> 03:08:32,160
Speaker 8: This should be documents that could that could corroborate that. Onment,

3375
03:08:32,240 --> 03:08:33,400
Speaker 8: imagine what think.

3376
03:08:33,959 --> 03:08:38,320
Speaker 7: The temver eighth Mike Johnson walked back his FBI informant comments,

3377
03:08:38,760 --> 03:08:41,800
Speaker 7: telling reporters he was referring to what epstein victims attorneys

3378
03:08:41,800 --> 03:08:44,680
Speaker 7: has said that Trump was quote willing to help law

3379
03:08:44,760 --> 03:08:47,279
Speaker 7: enforcement to go after the guy who was a disgusting

3380
03:08:47,360 --> 03:08:50,040
Speaker 7: child abuser as at trafficker. All the allegations. That's what

3381
03:08:50,080 --> 03:08:52,560
Speaker 7: they heard. I don't know if I used the right terminology,

3382
03:08:52,760 --> 03:08:55,600
Speaker 7: but that's common knowledge, and everybody knows that I was

3383
03:08:55,600 --> 03:08:58,119
Speaker 7: repeating what has been common knowledge for a long time.

3384
03:08:58,400 --> 03:09:00,879
Speaker 7: The President was helpful in trying to get Epstein for

3385
03:09:00,920 --> 03:09:05,200
Speaker 7: the law enforcement to go after Epstein unquote great stuff

3386
03:09:05,560 --> 03:09:10,720
Speaker 7: from Mike Johnson share. A day later, Whitehouse Press Secretary

3387
03:09:10,760 --> 03:09:13,800
Speaker 7: Carolyn Levitt confirmed that Trump was not, in fact an

3388
03:09:13,840 --> 03:09:19,280
Speaker 7: FBI informant. One other weird Epstein story from this week

3389
03:09:19,440 --> 03:09:22,920
Speaker 7: is how the DOJ has been beefing with James O'Keeffe's

3390
03:09:22,959 --> 03:09:24,760
Speaker 7: Project Veritas.

3391
03:09:25,160 --> 03:09:25,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3392
03:09:26,080 --> 03:09:31,200
Speaker 7: Project Veritas did a operation against a DOJ employee in

3393
03:09:31,240 --> 03:09:35,520
Speaker 7: which they recorded him saying this. Those files do exist.

3394
03:09:36,080 --> 03:09:39,760
Speaker 18: Yeah, thousands and thousands of Page five still redactor every

3395
03:09:40,400 --> 03:09:44,440
Speaker 18: Republican or conservative person in those files.

3396
03:09:44,640 --> 03:09:47,480
Speaker 3: Leave all the liberal democratic people in those files.

3397
03:09:48,120 --> 03:09:50,520
Speaker 7: I mean they visited that Maxwell person.

3398
03:09:50,879 --> 03:09:53,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, and also involved got.

3399
03:09:53,200 --> 03:09:57,920
Speaker 17: Transferred to a minimum security Quiston series, which is against

3400
03:09:57,959 --> 03:10:01,400
Speaker 17: BOP positive because it's just a so he's a committed

3401
03:10:01,440 --> 03:10:01,920
Speaker 17: sex minter.

3402
03:10:02,480 --> 03:10:04,279
Speaker 6: The offer or something to keep about.

3403
03:10:04,120 --> 03:10:07,359
Speaker 18: Yet, that was the acting Deputy Chief of the Office

3404
03:10:07,360 --> 03:10:11,879
Speaker 18: of Enforcement operations Joseph Schnitt telling a stranger about the

3405
03:10:12,040 --> 03:10:15,840
Speaker 18: FBI and DOJ's handling of the Epstein files.

3406
03:10:16,640 --> 03:10:20,480
Speaker 7: The DOJ responded to O'Keefe saying, quote, Joseph schnid had

3407
03:10:20,480 --> 03:10:23,200
Speaker 7: no role in the department's internal review of Epstein materials.

3408
03:10:23,200 --> 03:10:25,080
Speaker 7: He has confirmed as much to leadership, and we plan

3409
03:10:25,120 --> 03:10:27,160
Speaker 7: on publishing his written statement to that effect when we

3410
03:10:27,240 --> 03:10:29,879
Speaker 7: have it. In his words, the comments he made were

3411
03:10:29,920 --> 03:10:33,200
Speaker 7: based on quote what he learned in the media, and

3412
03:10:33,280 --> 03:10:36,840
Speaker 7: he has quote no knowledge of the circumstances surrounding Miss

3413
03:10:36,920 --> 03:10:40,480
Speaker 7: Maxwell other than what was reported in the news unquote.

3414
03:10:41,240 --> 03:10:45,920
Speaker 7: And then Schnitt used the Department of Justice X account

3415
03:10:46,320 --> 03:10:49,600
Speaker 7: to post a what it could be described as like

3416
03:10:49,640 --> 03:10:55,240
Speaker 7: an Apple Notes apology statement with thirty percent battery displayed

3417
03:10:55,320 --> 03:10:59,520
Speaker 7: on his phone. When he talks about he talks about

3418
03:10:59,600 --> 03:11:03,280
Speaker 7: meeting a quote woman named Skyler on Hinge a dating

3419
03:11:03,320 --> 03:11:07,080
Speaker 7: gap in July twenty twenty five. Her profiles no longer findable.

3420
03:11:07,400 --> 03:11:10,840
Speaker 7: We had two dates. She gave no clues that she

3421
03:11:10,920 --> 03:11:14,440
Speaker 7: was a reporter or recording car dates. Had I clue,

3422
03:11:14,480 --> 03:11:16,680
Speaker 7: the first date would have ended immediately and there would

3423
03:11:16,720 --> 03:11:19,480
Speaker 7: have never been a second one. My profile indicated I

3424
03:11:19,520 --> 03:11:22,640
Speaker 7: did quote unquote government work, but did not specify for

3425
03:11:22,680 --> 03:11:25,320
Speaker 7: which agency. I never discussed what I do at DOJ.

3426
03:11:25,920 --> 03:11:28,400
Speaker 7: The comments I made were my own personal comments on

3427
03:11:28,440 --> 03:11:31,320
Speaker 7: what I've learned in the media and not from anything

3428
03:11:31,480 --> 03:11:36,680
Speaker 7: I've done or learned via work. Incredible the United States government, everybody.

3429
03:11:36,920 --> 03:11:41,240
Speaker 14: Yeah, and James O'Keeffe out there with the journalism first trap.

3430
03:11:41,280 --> 03:11:44,000
Speaker 14: I guess I wonder if it's is it a one

3431
03:11:44,040 --> 03:11:47,400
Speaker 14: party consent? This is in DC, right, I don't believe

3432
03:11:47,520 --> 03:11:48,760
Speaker 14: DC is one party consent.

3433
03:11:48,920 --> 03:11:51,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, that I would be shocked. I'm not sure how

3434
03:11:51,440 --> 03:11:53,560
Speaker 7: O'Keefe pulls all this stuff off legally.

3435
03:11:53,680 --> 03:11:56,120
Speaker 5: He could get in trouble for this one. Yeah.

3436
03:11:56,200 --> 03:11:58,199
Speaker 14: My understanding would be just to be clear for people

3437
03:11:58,200 --> 03:12:01,160
Speaker 14: who want in on the jog, and like in most

3438
03:12:01,200 --> 03:12:03,480
Speaker 14: states of the Union, I think you need both people's

3439
03:12:03,520 --> 03:12:07,119
Speaker 14: consent to record a conversation. You could argue, I guess

3440
03:12:07,120 --> 03:12:09,800
Speaker 14: he didn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy sitting out there,

3441
03:12:09,800 --> 03:12:13,320
Speaker 14: but I think this is very clearly a clandestine recording.

3442
03:12:13,560 --> 03:12:15,680
Speaker 2: Oh wait, no, no, no, sorry, d d C is

3443
03:12:15,680 --> 03:12:20,240
Speaker 2: a one party consents area. Dam Okay, well there you go. Wow, Okay,

3444
03:12:20,400 --> 03:12:21,600
Speaker 2: I did yet I did not know that.

3445
03:12:21,879 --> 03:12:22,080
Speaker 6: Yep.

3446
03:12:22,160 --> 03:12:23,640
Speaker 5: So well he's safe.

3447
03:12:23,760 --> 03:12:26,440
Speaker 14: Yeah, I guess if that date was in DC. You

3448
03:12:26,520 --> 03:12:28,200
Speaker 14: got to look if the date was in DC. A

3449
03:12:28,280 --> 03:12:31,160
Speaker 14: lot of jurisdictions around there bumping up. But yeah, that's surprising.

3450
03:12:31,200 --> 03:12:32,080
Speaker 8: No, he's good.

3451
03:12:32,400 --> 03:12:36,200
Speaker 7: All right. Well, I think that's all we have for

3452
03:12:36,240 --> 03:12:38,119
Speaker 7: this week, which is a lot. This was a massive

3453
03:12:38,160 --> 03:12:41,600
Speaker 7: news week. This is an extra long episode, but sometimes

3454
03:12:41,640 --> 03:12:42,360
Speaker 7: that happens.

3455
03:12:42,640 --> 03:12:44,560
Speaker 8: Congratulations on making it this far.

3456
03:12:45,040 --> 03:12:49,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and may every day be a new wonderful secret

3457
03:12:49,360 --> 03:12:53,200
Speaker 2: as no. Donald Trump told Jeffrey Epstein.

3458
03:12:53,160 --> 03:12:54,480
Speaker 8: Stop him to turn it off.

3459
03:12:54,760 --> 03:13:02,080
Speaker 7: We reported the news, We reported the news.

3460
03:13:04,360 --> 03:13:07,520
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3461
03:13:07,600 --> 03:13:09,480
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3462
03:13:10,240 --> 03:13:12,760
Speaker 15: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3463
03:13:12,920 --> 03:13:15,960
Speaker 15: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3464
03:13:16,040 --> 03:13:19,640
Speaker 15: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3465
03:13:19,680 --> 03:13:23,280
Speaker 15: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3466
03:13:23,320 --> 03:13:25,640
Speaker 15: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly

3467
03:13:25,680 --> 03:13:26,800
Speaker 15: in episode descriptions.

3468
03:13:27,120 --> 03:13:27,959
Speaker 7: Thanks for listening.